Study on ancient Italy! Sikeliot is always right ;)

[Sikeliot]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/12/13/494898.full.pdf

I do not have time to go through the entire thing right now but this should be a separate thread.

But the evidence to me suggests Mycenaean or Minoan-like ancient Sicilians.


Italian clusters separated into three main groups: Sardinia, Northern (North/Central-North Italy) and Southern Italy (South/Central-South Italy and Sicily); the former two were close to populations originally from Western Europe, while the latter was in proximity of Middle East groups (Fig. 1A, fig. S2, data file S2).

The paper does say CHG was in South Italy/Sicily early on and persists today:

We therefore speculate that our approach might in general underestimate the presence of CHG across the continent; however, we note that even considering this scenario, the excess of Caucasus related ancestry detected in the South of the European continent, and in Southern Italy in particular, is striking and unexplained by currently proposed models for the peopling of the continent.


Anatolian Bronze Age input is higher in South Italy than elsewhere:

The closer affinity of the Southern Italian clusters to ABA was also highlighted by the PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis on ancient and modern samples (Fig. 2I, fig. S12, fig. S13, fig. S14) and significantly higher ABA ancestry in Southern than Northern Italy, as estimated by NNLS analysis (Fig. 2D, Student's t-Test p-value < 0.05, Supplementary materials). We also noted that in the Balkan peninsula signatures related to ABA were present but less evident than in Southern Italy across modern-day populations, possibly masked by historical contributions from Central Europe (20, 21)

Ancient Sicily DID NOT plot like North Italy:

The Bell Beaker samples of Northern Italy (2,200-1,930 BCE) were modelled as ABA and AN + SBA and WHG, although ABA was characterised by large standard errors but the detection of Steppe ancestry, at 14%, was more robust. On the other hand Bell Beaker samples from Sicily (2,500-1,900 BCE) were modelled almost exclusively as ABA, with less than 5% SBA.

This is where it plots:

The other two Bronze Age North Italian samples clustered with modern North Italians, while the Bell Beaker sample from Sicily was projected in between European Early Neolithic, Bronze Age Southern European and modern-day Italian samples.

Beaker Sicily plots between ONE of the North Italy Beaker samples and Mycenaeans, but much further from the other 2 Beaker North Italy samples. Looks closer to Mycenaeans overall.

Some of the Anatolia Bronze Age samples plot actually *in* modern South Italy.


https://i.imgur.com/eRwy7iW.png

[StevenTylerAerosmith]

very interesting topic

[Sikeliot]

All the genetic studies all say the same thing, so anyone trying to argue Sicilians are Normans is not going to be able to make their case anymore. South Italians (all regions) are genetically in closer proximity to the Middle East than others at their latitude in Europe (I also include Aegean islands as similarly Middle Eastern admixed, but they are a less populous region numerically).

[Lucas]

All the genetic studies all say the same thing, so anyone trying to argue Sicilians are Normans is not going to be able to make their case anymore. South Italians (all regions) are genetically in closer proximity to the Middle East than others at their latitude in Europe (I also include Aegean islands as similarly Middle Eastern admixed, but they are a less populous region numerically).

I always agreed with that. But if was serious scientist who argued Sicilian - Norman connection?

[Token]

Clear evidences of Slovenian admixture as far west as Veneto and French admixture in Piedmont.

[Token]

All the genetic studies all say the same thing, so anyone trying to argue Sicilians are Normans is not going to be able to make their case anymore. South Italians (all regions) are genetically in closer proximity to the Middle East than others at their latitude in Europe (I also include Aegean islands as similarly Middle Eastern admixed, but they are a less populous region numerically).

There might be significant Norman admixture in Sicily though. I don't buy your Lombard migration theory, shared IBD doesn't supportd any signifcant internal migration from north to southern Italy.

[Sikeliot]

I always agreed with that. But if was serious scientist who argued Sicilian - Norman connection?

Then I would accept it.

[Lucas]

Then I would accept it.

Forum user conceptions aren't too serios to treat them seriously. But I understand there could be annoying.

[Myanthropologies]

Good thread and topic, but the title is very arrogant. "SIkeloit is always right."

[Sikeliot]

Good thread and topic, but the title is very arrogant. "SIkeloit is always right."

I was kidding. Lol

[Tauromachos]

I was kidding. Lol

No you where not,

Jews are always right

[Ajeje Brazorf]

South Italians (all regions) are genetically in closer proximity to the Middle East than others at their latitude in Europe (I also include Aegean islands as similarly Middle Eastern admixed, but they are a less populous region numerically).

Since when genetics follows latitude? Sicilians are almost as distant to Levant_BA as Mycenaeans were.


<thead>

Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Levant BA North

</thead><tbody>
1
Levant_BA_North
Mycenaean:Average

9.6611
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Levant_BA_North%22%5D&add_groups_weights=100&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
100


2
Levant_BA_North
Sicilian_East:Average

9.2858
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Levant_BA_North%22%5D&add_groups_weights=100&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
100

</tbody>

However, Sicilians, compared to the Mycenaeans, have not only a Levantine shift but definitely also a central European one.


<thead>

Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Anatolia BA
Beaker Central Europe
Levant BA North
Mycenaean

</thead><tbody>
1
Anatolia_BA +Beaker_Central_Europe +Levant_BA_North +Mycenaean
Sicilian_East:Average

0.4997
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_BA%22%2C%22Beaker_Centra l_Europe%22%2C%22Levant_BA_North%22%2C%22Mycenaean %22%5D&add_groups_weights=15%2C36.67%2C27.5%2C20.83&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
15
36.67
27.5
20.83

</tbody>

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The study is not on ancient Italy and Sikeliot is always wrong.

[Lucas]

LOL

[Sikeliot]

LOL

Curious what you find funny. There are many funny things in this thread!

[Sikeliot]

Since when genetics follows latitude? Sicilians are almost as distant to Levant_BA as Mycenaeans were.


<thead>

Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Levant BA North

</thead><tbody>
1
Levant_BA_North
Mycenaean:Average

9.6611
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Levant_BA_North%22%5D&add_groups_weights=100&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
100


2
Levant_BA_North
Sicilian_East:Average

9.2858
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Levant_BA_North%22%5D&add_groups_weights=100&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
100

</tbody>

However, Sicilians, compared to the Mycenaeans, have not only a Levantine shift but definitely also a central European one.


<thead>

Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Anatolia BA
Beaker Central Europe
Levant BA North
Mycenaean

</thead><tbody>
1
Anatolia_BA +Beaker_Central_Europe +Levant_BA_North +Mycenaean
Sicilian_East:Average

0.4997
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_BA%22%2C%22Beaker_Centra l_Europe%22%2C%22Levant_BA_North%22%2C%22Mycenaean %22%5D&add_groups_weights=15%2C36.67%2C27.5%2C20.83&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
15
36.67
27.5
20.83

</tbody>

Looks like this is modeling Sicily as 80% non-Mycenaean, with the Levant BA component larger, with a combination of Anatolia and Levant BA exceeding Central European Beaker also.

Looks more like they're a mixture of West Asian and Central European Beaker, with a Mycenaean contribution.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Looks like this is modeling Sicily as 80% non-Mycenaean, with the Levant BA component larger, with a combination of Anatolia and Levant BA exceeding Central European Beaker also. Looks more like they're a mixture of West Asian and Central European Beaker, with a Mycenaean contribution.

You can play a lot with these models, percentages are fucked up but they make you understand that if you base it on Mycenaeans + Levant/Anatolia, you have to add something northern to fit Sicily better (0.4997). When you remove that, distance is 3.4702


<thead>

Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Anatolia ChL
Levant BA South
Mozabite
Mycenaean

</thead><tbody>
1
Anatolia_ChL +Levant_BA_South +Mozabite +Mycenaean
Sicilian_East:Average

3.4702
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_ChL%22%2C%22Levant_BA_So uth%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%2C%22Mycenaean%22%5D&add_groups_weights=22.5%2C9.17%2C3.33%2C65&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
22.5
9.17
3.33
65

</tbody>

[Sikeliot]

You can play a lot with these models, percentages are fucked up but they make you understand that if you base it on Mycenaeans + Levant/Anatolia, you have to add something northern to fit Sicily better (0.4997). When you remove that, distance is 3.4702


<thead>

Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Anatolia ChL
Levant BA South
Mozabite
Mycenaean

</thead><tbody>
1
Anatolia_ChL +Levant_BA_South +Mozabite +Mycenaean
Sicilian_East:Average

3.4702
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_ChL%22%2C%22Levant_BA_So uth%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%2C%22Mycenaean%22%5D&add_groups_weights=22.5%2C9.17%2C3.33%2C65&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
22.5
9.17
3.33
65

</tbody>


Northern input is likely from a mixture of Italics and Doric Greeks, who would have been more IE than Mycenaeans. I highly doubt all the Greeks in Sicily were 100% Mycenaean-like for the centuries of Greek migration.

But it seems that when you add the Northern component, Mycenaean drops, and Levantine increases which means Sicilians do require a significant amount of Levant for good modeling, in addition to Northern input.

[Antimatter]

All the genetic studies all say the same thing, so anyone trying to argue Sicilians are Normans is not going to be able to make their case anymore. South Italians (all regions) are genetically in closer proximity to the Middle East than others at their latitude in Europe (I also include Aegean islands as similarly Middle Eastern admixed, but they are a less populous region numerically).

How close do they plot next to the Sardinians who are closest to ENF?

Also could the Levantine admixture have been due to Phoenician colonization? It looks doubtful if they would have settled en masse because the Phoenicians mostly cared about trade, unlike Romans for example who settled more frequently than the Phoenicians did.

[Sikeliot]

How close do they plot next to the Sardinians who are closest to ENF?

Also could the Levantine admixture have been due to Phoenician colonization? It looks doubtful if they would have settled en masse because the Phoenicians mostly cared about trade, unlike Romans for example who settled more frequently than the Phoenicians did.

Phoenicians and Carthaginians settled Sicily when its population density was likely to be very low.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Northern input is likely from a mixture of Italics and Doric Greeks, who would have been more IE than Mycenaeans. I highly doubt all the Greeks in Sicily were 100% Mycenaean-like for the centuries of Greek migration.

Doric Greeks weren't more IE than the rest of ancient Greeks but honestly I don't know where this northern input would come from, it is present even when you use Tuscans as a proxy instead of Mycenaeans.


But it seems that when you add the Northern component, Mycenaean drops, and Levantine increases which means Sicilians do require a significant amount of Levant for good modeling, in addition to Northern input.

Yes, but both Northern and Levantine input are more likely to be inaccurate, because when you mix a already southern-shifted group like the Mycenaeans with Levantines and Anatolians, to bring Sicily back to its level, you will need a population further north that will inflate the percentages.

[Sikeliot]

Doric Greeks weren't more IE than the rest of ancient Greeks but honestly I don't know where this northern input would come from, it is present even when you use Tuscans as a proxy instead of Mycenaeans.



Yes, but both Northern and Levantine input are more likely to be inaccurate, because when you mix a already southern-shifted group like the Mycenaeans with Levantines and Anatolians, to bring Sicily back to its level, you will need a population further north that will inflate the percentages.


At least you can say you were right that Sicilian Bell Beaker plotted, for the most part with Mycenaeans based on the one sample.

[Coolguy1]

Doric Greeks weren't more IE than the rest of ancient Greeks but honestly I don't know where this northern input would come from, it is present even when you use Tuscans as a proxy instead of Mycenaeans.



Yes, but both Northern and Levantine input are more likely to be inaccurate, because when you mix a already southern-shifted group like the Mycenaeans with Levantines and Anatolians, to bring Sicily back to its level, you will need a population further north that will inflate the percentages.

There is no way to model Sicilians are Greek islanders without increased steppe, in addition to MENA influences. There has to have been another migration from the steppe into these areas after the Mycenaeans had already established themselves.

[1] "distance%=2.677 / distance=0.02677"

Sicilian_Syracuse (N=9)

Minoan_Lasithi (N=5) 66.50
Catacomb_Culture_F999946 20.85
Algerian (N=2) 10.20
I0440_Poltavka 2.45

[1] "distance%=3.6472 / distance=0.036472"

Mycenaean (N=4)

Minoan_Lasithi (N=5) 88.1
Yamnaya_M343758 11.9

[Sikeliot]

There is no way to model Sicilians are Greek islanders without increased steppe, in addition to MENA influences. There has to have been another migration from the steppe into these areas after the Mycenaeans had already established themselves.

[1] "distance%=2.677 / distance=0.02677"

Sicilian_Syracuse (N=9)

Minoan_Lasithi (N=5) 66.50
Catacomb_Culture_F999946 20.85
Algerian (N=2) 10.20
I0440_Poltavka 2.45

[1] "distance%=3.6472 / distance=0.036472"

Mycenaean (N=4)

Minoan_Lasithi (N=5) 88.1
Yamnaya_M343758 11.9


Syracuse is the least MENA/most Steppe Sicilian cluster, along with Trapani and Ragusa. But I see what you mean, that you can't model Sicilians as Greek islanders without both another MENA input and a Steppe one.

[Coolguy1]

Syracuse is the least MENA/most Steppe Sicilian cluster, along with Trapani and Ragusa. But I see what you mean, that you can't model Sicilians as Greek islanders without both another MENA input and a Steppe one.

Its not really that Ragusans necessarily experienced more migration from the steppe, but rather that they were able resist MENA influence a bit more effectively than the rest of Sicily for whatever reason. This is what artificially makes them seem more steppe influenced.

[Sikeliot]

Its not really that Ragusans necessarily experienced more migration from the steppe, but rather that they were able resist MENA influence a bit more effectively than the rest of Sicily for whatever reason. This is what artificially makes them seem more steppe influenced.

Which Sicilian region did you get to be the most MENA influenced? Or was everyone roughly equal except Ragusa?

[Sikeliot]

Its not really that Ragusans necessarily experienced more migration from the steppe, but rather that they were able resist MENA influence a bit more effectively than the rest of Sicily for whatever reason. This is what artificially makes them seem more steppe influenced.

Which Sicilian region did you get to be the most MENA influenced? Or was everyone roughly equal except Ragusa?

[Coolguy1]

Which Sicilian region did you get to be the most MENA influenced? Or was everyone roughly equal except Ragusa?

Most are equidistant, but I believe Messina has the most MENA influence.

[Sikeliot]

Most are equidistant, but I believe Messina has the most MENA influence.

Which was next? Probably Palermo or Catania?

I think Messina artificially looks most MENA because they have the least Steppe.

[Leto]

So basically NW Italy is closest to France and Catalonia and NE Italy is shifted towards Northern Greece and the Balkans. Interesting, a great study.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

So basically NW Italy is closest to France and Catalonia and NE Italy is shifted towards Northern Greece and the Balkans. Interesting, a great study.

This study didn't say anything new actually. A great study would concern ancient DNA, but it's science fiction to Italians.

[Leto]

This study didn't say anything new actually. A great study would concern ancient DNA, but it's science fiction to Italians.
Let Sikeliot do a study on Sicily to find its undiscovered Norman, Lebanese and Arabian connections ;)

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Let Sikeliot do a study on Sicily to find its undiscovered Norman, Lebanese and Arabian connections ;)

Allahu akbar then ;)

[Dorian]

Northern input is likely from a mixture of Italics and Doric Greeks, who would have been more IE than Mycenaeans. I highly doubt all the Greeks in Sicily were 100% Mycenaean-like for the centuries of Greek migration.

But it seems that when you add the Northern component, Mycenaean drops, and Levantine increases which means Sicilians do require a significant amount of Levant for good modeling, in addition to Northern input.

Speaking about doric mixture,griko people crossed my mind and I wonder if any of those villages mentioned here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people are pure griko speaking,if there any we could make a post.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Speaking about doric mixture,griko people crossed my mind and I wonder if any of those villages mentioned here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people are pure griko speaking,if there any we could make a post.

In antiquity there was only a Greek colony in Salento which was Kallipolis, I think their dialect is of Byzantine origin and probably was spoken in a wider area than it is now. They were mostly Greek-speaking until 60 years ago when people started abandoning the language in favor of Italian or the local Romance dialect, sadly. There is a site completely dedicated to the Greek dialect of Salento, it is in Italian but using Google Translate you should be able to understand what is written. It's called "Ciuri ce pedì" (father and son) and contains all informations about the language, including poems, songs, vocabulary, stories and much more.

https://www.ciuricepedi.it/

Literature: https://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-dautore/
Paraliterature: https://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-popolare/
About Griko: https://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-lingua/
Griko songs: https://www.ciuricepedi.it/i-canti/

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Speaking about doric mixture,griko people crossed my mind and I wonder if any of those villages mentioned here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people are pure griko speaking,if there any we could make a post.

Can you understand their dialect? Is it much different from Standard Greek? This is a Griko song:

Crying, My husband leaves
(Klama, Andra mu pai)

I want to get drunk... to not think,
(Telo na mbriakettò… na mi’ pensetso)
to cry and laugh I want tonight,
(na klatso ce na jelaso telo artevrai)
with great anger I must sing,
(ma mali’ ràggia evò ènna kantalìso)
I have to shout at the moon: my husband is leaving!
(sto fengo ènna fonàso: o àndramu pài!)

Wake up, women, wake up!
(Tsunnìsete, tsunnìsete, jineke!)
Come and cry with me!
(Dellaste ettù na klàtsete ma ‘mena!)
We remained alone, Saint Brice's day has passed
(Mìnamo manechemma, diake o A’ Vrìzio)
and the men leave one by one!
(ce e àntrepi ste mas pane es ena es ena!)

The men are leaving, they are leaving!
(E àntrepi ste mas pàne, ste taràssune!)
If it goes well, we'll see them again in a year!
(Nârti kalì us torùme ettù ‘s ena chròno!)
Is this our life? Is this life, my God?
(E’ tui e zoìmma? E’ tui e zoì, Kristèmu?)
They go to Germany crying in pain!
(Mas pa’ ‘cì sti’ Germania klèonta ma pono!)

Poor me, poor those children!
(Mara ‘s emena, techùddhia isa pedàcia!)
They see their dad once a year:
(Torù’ to’ tata mia forà to’ chròno)
- Why are you crying dad? It is Saint Brice!
(- Tata, jatì ste klei? Ene o A’ Vrìzio!)
Listen to the band, hear the beautiful sound!
(Kuse ti’ banda, kuse ti òrio sono!)

- I hear the band and I hear this music,
(- Ste kuo ti’ banda ce ste kuo itto’ sono)
I'm here with you but I think about the train,
(steo ettù ma ‘sà ce ste pensèo sto’ treno)
I think about the darkness of that mine,
(pensèo sto skotinò citti miniera)
where people die working!
(`pù polemònta ecì pesèni o jèno!)

- Daddy, why do you have to go? Tell me why?
(- Tata, jatì ènna pai? Pemma, jatì?)
- Because this is life, poor boys:
(- Jatì tui ène e zoì, mara pedìa)
the poor man works and sweats
(o techùddhri polemà ce dronni)
to fatten the bosses with his labour!
(na lipariàsi us patrùnu m’utti fatìa!)

- Poor us, come here children,
(- Mara ‘s emà, dellaste ettù, pedìa)
come, let us kneel down on the ground;
(dellaste, `ngotanìzzome ‘ttumesa)
dad is gone and we pray
(o tàta pìrte ce `mì prakalùme)
some light to come for us too!
(na ttàsi lìon lustro puru ja ‘mà!)

[Dorian]

Can you understand their dialect? Is it much different from Standard Greek? This is a Griko song:

Crying, My husband leaves
(Klama, Andra mu pai)

I want to get drunk... to not think,
(Telo na mbriakettò… na mi’ pensetso)
to cry and laugh I want tonight,
(na klatso ce na jelaso telo artevrai)
with great anger I must sing,
(ma mali’ ràggia evò ènna kantalìso)
I have to shout at the moon: my husband is leaving!
(sto fengo ènna fonàso: o àndramu pài!)

Wake up, women, wake up!
(Tsunnìsete, tsunnìsete, jineke!)
Come and cry with me!
(Dellaste ettù na klàtsete ma ‘mena!)
We remained alone, Saint Brice's day has passed
(Mìnamo manechemma, diake o A’ Vrìzio)
and the men leave one by one!
(ce e àntrepi ste mas pane es ena es ena!)

The men are leaving, they are leaving!
(E àntrepi ste mas pàne, ste taràssune!)
If it goes well, we'll see them again in a year!
(Nârti kalì us torùme ettù ‘s ena chròno!)
Is this our life? Is this life, my God?
(E’ tui e zoìmma? E’ tui e zoì, Kristèmu?)
They go to Germany crying in pain!
(Mas pa’ ‘cì sti’ Germania klèonta ma pono!)

Poor me, poor those children!
(Mara ‘s emena, techùddhia isa pedàcia!)
They see their dad once a year:
(Torù’ to’ tata mia forà to’ chròno)
- Why are you crying dad? It is Saint Brice!
(- Tata, jatì ste klei? Ene o A’ Vrìzio!)
Listen to the band, hear the beautiful sound!
(Kuse ti’ banda, kuse ti òrio sono!)

- I hear the band and I hear this music,
(- Ste kuo ti’ banda ce ste kuo itto’ sono)
I'm here with you but I think about the train,
(steo ettù ma ‘sà ce ste pensèo sto’ treno)
I think about the darkness of that mine,
(pensèo sto skotinò citti miniera)
where people die working!
(`pù polemònta ecì pesèni o jèno!)

- Daddy, why do you have to go? Tell me why?
(- Tata, jatì ènna pai? Pemma, jatì?)
- Because this is life, poor boys:
(- Jatì tui ène e zoì, mara pedìa)
the poor man works and sweats
(o techùddhri polemà ce dronni)
to fatten the bosses with his labour!
(na lipariàsi us patrùnu m’utti fatìa!)

- Poor us, come here children,
(- Mara ‘s emà, dellaste ettù, pedìa)
come, let us kneel down on the ground;
(dellaste, `ngotanìzzome ‘ttumesa)
dad is gone and we pray
(o tàta pìrte ce `mì prakalùme)
some light to come for us too!
(na ttàsi lìon lustro puru ja ‘mà!)

Indeed,it's different...average Greek can't even comprehend cypriot-pontian-cretan dialects,this for some reason reminds me of cypriot.

[Token]

So basically NW Italy is closest to France and Catalonia and NE Italy is shifted towards Northern Greece and the Balkans. Interesting, a great study.

Rather towards Slovenians, which makes sense, there are even Slovene speakers in Friuli.

[nightrider+]

Can you understand their dialect? Is it much different from Standard Greek? This is a Griko song:

Crying, My husband leaves
(Klama, Andra mu pai)

I want to get drunk... to not think,
(Telo na mbriakettò… na mi’ pensetso)
to cry and laugh I want tonight,
(na klatso ce na jelaso telo artevrai)
with great anger I must sing,
(ma mali’ ràggia evò ènna kantalìso)
I have to shout at the moon: my husband is leaving!
(sto fengo ènna fonàso: o àndramu pài!)

Wake up, women, wake up!
(Tsunnìsete, tsunnìsete, jineke!)
Come and cry with me!
(Dellaste ettù na klàtsete ma ‘mena!)
We remained alone, Saint Brice's day has passed
(Mìnamo manechemma, diake o A’ Vrìzio)
and the men leave one by one!
(ce e àntrepi ste mas pane es ena es ena!)

The men are leaving, they are leaving!
(E àntrepi ste mas pàne, ste taràssune!)
If it goes well, we'll see them again in a year!
(Nârti kalì us torùme ettù ‘s ena chròno!)
Is this our life? Is this life, my God?
(E’ tui e zoìmma? E’ tui e zoì, Kristèmu?)
They go to Germany crying in pain!
(Mas pa’ ‘cì sti’ Germania klèonta ma pono!)

Poor me, poor those children!
(Mara ‘s emena, techùddhia isa pedàcia!)
They see their dad once a year:
(Torù’ to’ tata mia forà to’ chròno)
- Why are you crying dad? It is Saint Brice!
(- Tata, jatì ste klei? Ene o A’ Vrìzio!)
Listen to the band, hear the beautiful sound!
(Kuse ti’ banda, kuse ti òrio sono!)

- I hear the band and I hear this music,
(- Ste kuo ti’ banda ce ste kuo itto’ sono)
I'm here with you but I think about the train,
(steo ettù ma ‘sà ce ste pensèo sto’ treno)
I think about the darkness of that mine,
(pensèo sto skotinò citti miniera)
where people die working!
(`pù polemònta ecì pesèni o jèno!)

- Daddy, why do you have to go? Tell me why?
(- Tata, jatì ènna pai? Pemma, jatì?)
- Because this is life, poor boys:
(- Jatì tui ène e zoì, mara pedìa)
the poor man works and sweats
(o techùddhri polemà ce dronni)
to fatten the bosses with his labour!
(na lipariàsi us patrùnu m’utti fatìa!)

- Poor us, come here children,
(- Mara ‘s emà, dellaste ettù, pedìa)
come, let us kneel down on the ground;
(dellaste, `ngotanìzzome ‘ttumesa)
dad is gone and we pray
(o tàta pìrte ce `mì prakalùme)
some light to come for us too!
(na ttàsi lìon lustro puru ja ‘mà!)

Seeing the English translation you can get many things, otherwise it would be very hard. For example, klapso becomes klatso, elate edo becomes dellaste ettu, miname becomes minamo, antres becomes antrepi etc. However words like jelaso, pedia/pedacia, jineke, parakalume are pretty much the same as modern Greek.

[Tauromachos]

Indeed,it's different...average Greek can't even comprehend cypriot-pontian-cretan dialects,this for some reason reminds me of cypriot.

If there is one thing average Greeks can't comprehend its Vlach,Albanian or Slavic dialects

Cretan and even Pontic still remain somehow comprehensible

The most difficult to comprehen are Tsakonian and Cypriot

Kalinifta is Griko for Kalinichta
Not extremely different imo

[nightrider+]

If there is one thing average Greeks can't comprehend its Vlach,Albanian or Slavic dialects

Cretan and even Pontic still remain somehow comprehensible

The most difficult to comprehen are Tsakonian and Cypriot

Kalinifta is Griko for Kalinichta
Not extremely different imoCypriot are much easier to understand and much closer to typical modern Greek than Pontic, with little foreign influence. Most of the diffence is in pronounciation.
You seem clueless so I guess you're not Cypriot after all, so what are you? Egyptian Greek? Cappadocian?

[Tauromachos]

Cypriot are much easier to understand and much closer to typical modern Greek than Pontic, with little foreign influence. Most of the diffence is in pronounciation.
You seem clueless so I guess you're not Cypriot after all, so what are you? Egyptian Greek? Cappadocian?

Thats your opinion

Pontian is not that difficult afterall since its quite similar to Ancient mainstream Greek

Cypriot may be more similar to other of todays Greek dialects or even to todays Mainstream Greek than Pontic but if two
Cypriots speak in full dialect a person who is not used to it doesn't understand anything since the pronouncation is quite heavy more
so than Pontic imo

Another thing might be if its in written form than you can understand more and decipher it better.

Tsakonian may be the most difficult of all because its a distinct dialect

And when i heard Tsakonians talking in their dialect i didn't understood what they said at all

[nightrider+]

Thats your opinion

Pontian is not that difficult afterall since its quite similar to Ancient mainstream Greek

Cypriot may be more similar to other of todays Greek dialects or even to todays Mainstream Greek than Pontic but if two
Cypriots speak in full dialect a person who is not used to it doesn't understand anything since the pronouncation is quite heavy more
so than Pontic imo

Another thing might be if its in written form than you can understand more and decipher it better.

Tsakonian may be the most difficult of all because its a distinct dialect

And when i heard Tsakonians talking in their dialect i didn't understood what they said at all

It's not my opinion, you are just god damn clueless. Cypriot is easy to understand even by listening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC_5L0eByvE&list=PL7XK9L1m6tilvcWAVKgBpIoqnZGkjSBq4

Good luck understanding this (Pontic):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEwYFgqNVQs

Tsakonian almost sound like a different language.

[Sikeliot]

Tsakonian has a similar accent to South Italians to me. Same rhythm of speech.

[nightrider+]

Tsakonian has a similar accent to South Italians to me. Same rhythm of speech.

The second video is Pontic, if that's what you're referring to.

[Teucer]

The Cypriot dialect and modern Greek both evolved from Koine Greek. Tsakonian evolved from Doric Greek. Pretty big disconnect and why it sounds different.

[Tauromachos]

It's not my opinion, you are just god damn clueless. Cypriot is easy to understand even by listening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC_5L0eByvE&list=PL7XK9L1m6tilvcWAVKgBpIoqnZGkjSBq4

Good luck understanding this (Pontic):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEwYFgqNVQs

Tsakonian almost sound like a different language.

I understand equally both and don't notice a big difference between them

[nightrider+]

I understand equally both and don't notice a big difference between them

Maybe after the second or third time you listen to it. It's not as close as Cypriot is by any means, but I'm not expecting you to admit it, you dishonest little shit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf4xiMlLQ2A

[Tauromachos]

Maybe after the second or third time you listen to it. It's not as close as Cypriot is by any means, but I'm not expecting you to admit it, you dishonest little shit.


Listen dishonest Bastard cunt

I don't find it to difficult to understand Pontic Greek

The accent is quite clean and similar even to modern Greek

Pontic is basicly similar to ancient Ionian and Homeric Greek thats it

The Cypriot might be easier for you because the accent or way of talking is maybe more similar or familiar to your Vlach village dialects but to me
they both sound the same i don't find Pontian more foreign

[dosas]

Romeyka, not Pontic, is not a modern dialect but a surviving version of Hellenistic. The comparison doesn't stand because the grammatical structure is different to modern Greek.

[nightrider+]

Listen dishonest Bastard cunt

I don't find it to difficult to understand Pontic Greek

The accent is quite clean and similar even to modern Greek

Pontic is basicly similar to ancient Ionian and Homeric Greek thats it

The Cypriot might be easier for you because the accent or way of talking is more similar to your Vlach village dialects but to me
they both sound the same i don't find Pontian more foreign
All this is really funny, coming from someone who can hardly write in Greek. :rotfl:

[Tauromachos]

All this is really funny, coming from someone who can hardly write in Greek. :rotfl:

What do you want you fucker

Do you want me to translate the first video you posted with the two Pontic women talking?
I can understand what they talk about and roughly explain what they say

Shall i?

The things i don't understand or can't translate are Albanian or Slavic languages except a few words
There you have to ask your Albo or Croat friends

[nightrider+]

What do you want you fucker

Do you want me to translate the first video you posted with the two Pontic women talking?
I can understand what they talk about and roughly explain what they say

Shall i?

The things i don't understand or can't understand are Albanian or Slavic languages except a few words

This:


Παρχάρ’ αέρα εφύσεσεν
Καπόθεν τέλια τέλια
Τρυγόνα μ’ τα φιλέματα σ'
Γλυκέα άμον μέλια

Σα παρχάρια μη λάσκεσαι
Αρνί μ’ χωρίς εμένα
Κι ασ’ όλια τα νέρα μη πίντς
Κάποιον έχ κι εβδέλαν

Κόρη μ’ παρχαροπούλα είσαι
Ρωμάνας θαγατέρα
Εσέν π’ ελέπ’ την Κερεκήν
‘κι πάει ούς την Δευτέραν

Σ’ ελάτ’ αφ'κά μη κάθεσαι
Τ’ ελατοκλάδια στάζνε
Σα μανουσάκια απές πορπάτ'
Τα κάλλια σ’ να φωτάζνε

Is just not the same as this, faggot:


Εμαθετέ τι εγίνην στα μέρη της Ελλάς
Ντύθην η Αντρονίκη ρούχα Ευρωπαϊκά
Φορεί τα παντελόνια τσε πάει στον καφενέ
Τον καφετζήν προστάζει καφέ και ναργελέ
Ζητά τσε ενα τραπέζι τσε μιαν μάτσαν χαρτιά
τσι αρκίνησεν να παίζει μ’ έναν παλλήκαραν

Δυο φίλοι τ’ αδερφού της που την γνωρίζασιν
Πάσιν εις τον Βαγγέλη, τσι του το ειπασιν
τρεξε Βαγγελη τρεξε κατω στον καφενέ
Να δεις την Αντρονικην που πίνει ναργελέ

Βαγγέλης σαν τ’ ακούει πολλά θημώθηκεν
πιάννει τσε `ναν μασιέριν τσι αναρματώθηκεν
Κρίμας σε Αντρονικη, κρίμας στο μπόι σου
Εντρόπιασες κι εμένα τσι ούλλον το σόι σου
άφες με ρε Βαγγέλη να παίξω τα χαρτιά
με τουτο το παλληκάριν αφούς με άγαπα
Τραβά τσε το μασιέριν απο την θήκην του
τσι έκοψεν τον λαιμόν της της Αντρονίκης του

Όταν την επερνούσαν από τον καφενέ
έσπαζαν τα φλυτζάνια που πίννασιν καφέν
τσι όταν την επαιρνούσαν απο τα σπίθκια της
μικροί μεγάλοι κλάψαν τα μαύρα φρύδια της
και όταν την κάτεβάσαν μεσά στο μνήμα της
δυο φίλοι του άδελφου της είχαν το κρίμαν της

There is just no way around it.
And what the fuck do Albanians and Slavs have to do with anything? Do you see them in your sleep too?

[Rgvgjhvv]

Wait that Pontic Greek is supposed to sound super foreign?

[nightrider+]

Wait that Pontic Greek is supposed to sound super foreign?

No, there are foreign influences but that's not the problem. It's just diverted from mainstream Greek.

[dosas]

What foreign influences, can you give examples.

[Rgvgjhvv]

No, there are foreign influences but that's not the problem. It's just diverted from mainstream Greek.

That sounded incredibly similar to Modern Greek. There were some parts of the Greek Cypriot I was like wtf :lol: I'm not super familiar with some of the pronunciations, but probably just need a little comparison chart and I'll be good to go

[dosas]

There's not foreign influences. He just doesn't understand that Hellenistic Greek doesn't use as many personal pronouns but infinitives. Probably, didn't study alot of ancient Greek, while at school :thumb001:.

Edit: Romeyka is not diverted from mainstream Greek. It's the progenitor. Time to do your homework ;).

[Teucer]

That sounded incredibly similar to Modern Greek. There were some parts of the Greek Cypriot I was like wtf :lol: I'm not super familiar with some of the pronunciations, but probably just need a little comparison chart and I'll be good to go

Weirdly enough Cypriots pronounce 'k' as a 'j', so kai would be jai, just like in Crete, Rhodes, Griko in south Italy, and I think Tsakonian as well

[Rgvgjhvv]

Weirdly enough Cypriots pronounce 'k' as a 'j', so kai would be jai, just like in Crete, Rhodes, Griko in south Italy, and I think Tsakonian as well

Thanks! Heard a lot of that J sound

[Tauromachos]

Maybe after the second or third time you listen to it. It's not as close as Cypriot is by any means, but I'm not expecting you to admit it, you dishonest little shit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf4xiMlLQ2A

"Ενας παι στο καφενειο και αρχιζει να λεγει
Εμενα η γυναικο μου ξερετε πως με αγαπαι
μολις παω στο σπιτι αμαν το τσακακι μου αφερει μου πλινει τα ποδια μου αλλαζει της καλτσες
Λενε αυτονου η φιλοι,
Α ρε ασε την γυναικα μια φορα,ασε να τρωμε και πινουμε..
Παι αυτος στο σπιτι και λεγει Γυναικα μου θελω παραδες(δυλαδη παραδακι,λεφτα) να γλεντισω...
............"

Καπως ετσι

"A Dude goes to Kafenion and tells his friends:
Do you know how much my wife loves me and cares about me
each time i arrive at home she takes and puts off my jacket,washes my feet changes my socks
His friends reply:Oh common let your wife now ,sit with us a bit lets eat and drink together
The man leaves and goes home to take some money:
Honey do you have some money i need some money because i want to go out and party
........"

Somehow like this

Sorry for not translating all of it this would take to long

[Tacitus]

Lol this paper has fuck all to do with "ancient Italy" (it just compares modern samples to some ancient ones NOT FROM ITALY). This upcoming one from the Reich Lab, however...

https://www.orea.oeaw.ac.at/fileadmin/Institute/OREA/Events/2018/Genes/GenesIsotopesArtefacts_Abstracts.pdf


Steppe and Iranian ancestry among Bronze Age Central and Western Mediterranean populations

Ron Pinhasi, Daniel Fernandes, David Reich

Steppe-related ancestry is known to have reached central Europe ca. 3000 BCE, while Iran-related ancestry reached Greece by 1500 BCE. However, the time course and extent of their spread into the central/western Mediterranean remains a mystery. We analysed 48 Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals from Sicily, Sardinia and the Balearic Islands aiming to investigate when and how continental European and Aegean influences affected these insular populations. Results show that the first Balearic settlers had substantial Steppe-related ancestry which was subsequently diluted by increasing proportions of farmer-related ancestry. In Sardinia, we identified the appearance of Iran-related ancestry from the Aegean as early as the Middle Bronze Age, with no genetic influences seen from populations carrying Steppe-related ancestry despite cultural or commercial exchanges with Bell Beaker populations. In Sicily during the Bronze Age and POSSIBLY EARLIER, we found evidence for admixture with groups carrying both these ancestries. These results suggest that Steppe-related migrants had a crucial role in the settlement of the Balearic Islands and their ancestry reached as far south as Sicily, and that the population movements that brought Iran-related ancestry to the Aegean also impacted the Western Mediterranean around the same time the first civilizations started to develop.

At same conference there were a couple upcoming papers on Bronze Age Northern Italy presented as well:


Andrea Cardarelli*, Alberta Arena**Università degli studi di Roma, “La Sapienza”

From colonization to diaspora. Models of human mobility in the Terramare Culture between Europeand the Mediterranean

The Terramare represent one of the most renowned archaeological cultures in European Bronze Age, at leastsince the late 19th century.After a long period of decline that characterized most of the 20th century, the archaeological research hastaken new impulse and has constantly grown during the last three decades, largely confirming the intuitionsof the 19th century scholars.The Terramare are situated in the central Po River valley and date between the mid-17th and the first half ofthe 12th century BC (Middle Bronze Age and Recent Bronze Age). These villages were equipped with artificialfortifications and could reach 20 hectares in size.With the beginning of the historical cycle of the Terramare culture, this territory appears densely populatedreaching, and perhaps exceeding, 200,000 inhabitants, during the apogee.During these five centuries, the landscape drastically changed and became intensively anthropized, withhundreds of villages, cultivated and irrigated fields, roads and other kind of infrastructures.The intense demographic growth recorded for the early phases of the Terramare cycle does not seemto be explained only by an internal increase, but rather as the result of diverse forms of human mobility.After a long period of great economic and social success, the Terramare culture entered a deep crisis that ledto its collapse, a very complex phenomenon still not fully understood. Certainly, among the motivations thatcontributed to the disappearance of the Terramare, there were critical environmental and ecological conditions,but also the rigidity of the economic and socio-political model.Plausibly, the disappearance of the Terramare is correlated with the deep socio-economic transformationsthat occurred in continental Italy in the last centuries of the second millennium BC. The archaeological evidence suggests that more or less large groups of refugees from the collapsing Terramare moved also southwardsthroughout the Italian peninsula.The paper will focus on the possible role of the mobility in the rise and collapse of the Terramare, in thewider context of the Bronze Age Europe and Mediterranean.


Claudio Cavazzuti1,2, Robin Skeates1, Andrew Millard11Durham University, Department of Archaeology2Istituto Centrale per la Demnoetnoantropologia, Roma"

"Mobility of people in Northern Italy Bronze Age communities investigated through isotope analyses"

"How did people move across the landscape during the Bronze Age in Northern Italy? To what extent weredifferent categories of people mobile? How did mobility patterns change during the second millennium? Canwe observe differences between small villages and large centres?

The Ex-SPACE project (Exploring Social Permeability in Ancient Communities of Europe) has addressedthese questions, applying strontium, oxygen and carbon isotope analyses to a sample of 160 individuals (and40 baseline samples) from four cemeteries situated in the Po plain. The sites, which represent various culturalcontexts and chronological phases of the Bronze Age, were selected in order to understand how mobilitychanged in relation to the socio-political development from the small kinship-based communities of the Early Bronze Age to the Terramare system of the Middle and Late Bronze Age, and finally, to the complex societiesof the Final Bronze Age.The sampling strategy was conceived so as to explore mobility patterns among different categories ofindividuals, differentiated by sex, age, burial chronology/topography and grave goods.

We found that, regardless of long-term trends, the central place of a polity played a crucial role in determiningthe characteristics of mobility and the permeability to non-local components. Moreover, as also highlighted byother studies in Europe (notably Knipper et al.’s 2017 study on Bell Beaker and EBA in Bavaria), the movementof female individuals appears to have been of primary importance in defining a system of alliances, powerrelations and trade networks.A further element of interest is the relation between mobility and social inequalities. At Frattesina -theimportant port of trade which emerged as the Terramare system declined, commoners appear almostcompletely indigenous, while elites moved extensively across the hinterland, plausibly as part of the processof establishing and reinforcing power relations. Among them we distinguished a warrior chief, who was anoutsider and may have contributed to the overcome of the traditional isonomy of the Terramare and to theinstitution of a more hierarchical structure of society.

[nightrider+]

That sounded incredibly similar to Modern Greek. There were some parts of the Greek Cypriot I was like wtf :lol: I'm not super familiar with some of the pronunciations, but probably just need a little comparison chart and I'll be good to go

So if I read this to you loudly, you' ll understand it? :icon_lol:


Εκάεν και το Τσιαμπασίν
κιεπέμναν τα τουβάρε γιάρ γιάρ αμάν
κιεπέμναν τα τουβάρε ωχ ωχ αμάν.
Κι ερούξαν σο γουρτάρεμαν
τ’ Όρτους τα παλληκάρε γιάρ γιάρ αμάν
κι ερούξαν σο γουρτάρεμαν
τ’ Όρτους τα παλληκάρε ωχ ωχ αμάν.

Βάι εκάεν και μανίεν
τ’ Όρτους το Παρχάρ
καιν εκεί τιδέν κιεπέμνεν
μαναχό σαχτάρ.

Τρανόν γιαγκούν σο Τσιαμπασίν
σπίτε κι θ’ απομέν νε γιάρ γιάρ αμάν
σπίτε κι θ’ απομέν νε ωχ ωχ αμάν.
Τρανοί μικροί φτωχοί ζεγκίν
όλ’ κάθουνταν και κλαίγνε γιάρ γιάρ αμάν
τρανοί μικροί σο χιζεγκίν
όλ’ κάθουνταν και κλαίγνε ωχ ωχ αμάν.

Βάι εκάεν και μανίεν
τ’ Όρτους το Παρχάρ
καιν εκεί τιδέν κιεπέμνεν
μαναχό σαχτάρ.

Εκάεν και το Τσιαμπασίν
εκεί τιδέν κιεπέμνεν γιάρ γιάρ αμάν
εκεί τιδέν κιεπέμνεν ωχ ωχ αμάν.
Δασά κεράσοκέφαλα
άλλο χορτάρ κι φέρνε γιάρ γιάρ αμάν
Δασα κεράσοκέφαλα
άλλο χορτάρ κι φέρνε ωχ ωχ αμάν.

Βάι εκάεν και μανίεν
τ’ Όρτους το Παρχάρ
καιν εκεί τιδέν κι επέμνεν
μαναχό σαχτάρ.



There's not foreign influences. He just doesn't understand that Hellenistic Greek doesn't use as many personal pronouns but infinitives. Probably, didn't study alot of ancient Greek, while at school :thumb001:.

Edit: Romeyka is not diverted from mainstream Greek. It's the progenitor. Time to do your homework ;).

Toz, tsamour, poutsah etc are Greek words? You'll find countless here (https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%B9%C E%BF-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%8E%C E%BD-%CE%B1-%E2%80%93-pontic-greek-wordlist-%CE%B1). I wasn't talking specifically about the video.
I'm not claiming mainstream Greek lack foreign influences, just to make it clear because some fags on here are way too sensitive.

[Tauromachos]

Weirdly enough Cypriots pronounce 'k' as a 'j', so kai would be jai, just like in Crete, Rhodes, Griko in south Italy, and I think Tsakonian as well

Yes all these dialects have this features

Maniot,Tsakonian,Cretan,Rhodian and Cypriot

In Chimara(Northern Epiros) they speak a Greek dialect where they do it as well
Maybe i can find a video as an example of it

[Tauromachos]

And what the fuck do Albanians and Slavs have to do with anything? Do you see them in your sleep too?

You tell me

No i don't see them in my sleep but maybe you sleep with some

Whatever i'm sure everytime you go to bed you see in your sleep Cypriots,Pontians,Gypsies and Anadolids
thats why you so obsessed

[dosas]

So if I read this to you loudly, you' ll understand it? :icon_lol:





Toz, tsamour, poutsah etc are Greek words? You'll find countless here (https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%B9%C E%BF-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%8E%C E%BD-%CE%B1-%E2%80%93-pontic-greek-wordlist-%CE%B1). I wasn't talking specifically about the video.
I'm not claiming mainstream Greek lack foreign influences, just to make it clear because some fags on here are way too sensitive.

I still don't get your point. I didn't realise you were referring to isolated single words. All languages have those, ancient or medieval or modern. I'd trust the opinion of experts over anonymous sources on the internet, though:

http://www.romeyka.org/

The linguists at Cambridge are doing a fantastic job, in my opinion. You can read up on it, in their publications.


https://youtu.be/UcAYP4irSyQ

[nightrider+]

You tell me

No i don't see them in my sleep but maybe you sleep with some

Whatever i'm sure everytime you go to bed you see in your sleep Cypriots,Pontians,Gypsies and Anadolids
thats why you so obsessed

You are one autistic retard. I was just responding to you who brought up Cypriot and Pontic dialects. Slavs and Albanians came out of nowhere because you love to hate them.

[Tauromachos]

You are one autistic retard. I was just responding to you who brought up Cypriot and Pontic dialects. Slavs and Albanians came out of nowhere because you love to hate them.

No i don't hate them

But you seem to be especialy fond of them