Are Kazakhs indeed Turkified Mongols?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

"Although Haplogroup C-M130 attains its highest frequencies among the indigenous populations of Kazakhstan, Mongolia, the Russian Far East, Polynesia, Australia, and at moderate frequency in Korea and Manchu people, it displays its highest diversity among modern populations of India. It is therefore hypothesized that Haplogroup C-M130 either originated or underwent its longest period of evolution within India or the greater South Asian coastal region. The highest diversity is observed in Southeast Asia[contradictory] , and its northward expansion in East Asia started approximately 40,000 years ago."

Only Kazakhstan is mentioned of all Turkic countries with the main haplogroup C-M130. Could be said that it is confirmed that Kazakhs are actually turkified?

[Leto]

Not really. They are only about 60% Mongoloid and have a lot of Scythian/Aryan admixture. Mongolians are 80-90% Mongoloid.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtzCNlxHBHHgF4v8UX9_2rW0zlJ4GJjn_RbmpdEEiww/edit#gid=0

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Not really. They are only about 60% Mongoloid and have a lot of Scythian/Aryan admixture. Mongolians are 80-90% Mongoloid.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtzCNlxHBHHgF4v8UX9_2rW0zlJ4GJjn_RbmpdEEiww/edit#gid=0

I mean by Y-DNA. Their Y-DNA clade is same exactly as Mongol one. And it is known already in history that Golden Horde were turkified Mongols. So, aren't Khazaks their descedants?

[Kamal900]

Kazakhs are a mixture between Turkified locals who were Iranians, Turkic migrants, and Mongols who all mixed together to form the Kazakhi ethnos.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Kazakhs are a mixture between Turkified locals who were Iranians, Turkic migrants, and Mongols who all mixed together to form the Kazakhi ethnos.

Is their C-M130 actually Mongolic-related?

[Kamal900]

Is their C-M130 actually Mongolic-related?

Most likely, yes. Most of the Mongol soldiers were men.

[Leto]

I mean by Y-DNA. Their Y-DNA clade is same exactly as Mongol one. And it is known already in history that Golden Horde were turkified Mongols. So, aren't Khazaks their descedants?
Yes, I got you. Maybe that's the founder effect, I don't know. But I do know they're not identical autosomally.

[Chelubey]

Almost all Turkic steppe peoples are genetically mixed with Mongols. There are historical sources saying that a 30,000 Mongol squad has settled in Turkey. Only Kumyks and Karachais have no connection with Mongols.
Interestingly that Mongolian haplogroups appeared among Turkic peoples living west of the Urals mainly not during the Golden Horde, but much later.

[Chelubey]

http://bashkirica.ru/upload/iblock/f5e/f5e5cb9af72aec4cc9202409378fb338.pdf
Mongols among bashkirs:
В конце XVII в. большая
группа так называемых аюкинских калмыков,
недовольных политикой своего правителя
Аюки-тайши, откочевала на Южный Урал
и вошла в состав башкирского народа
google translate:
At the end of the XVII century a big
group of so-called Ayukino Kalmyks,
dissatisfied with the policy of their ruler
Ayuki-Taishi, migrated to the South Urals
and became part of the Bashkir people

[Universe]

I think they're more like Mongolified Turkics.

[Chelubey]

Mongols among Uyghur :
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D 0%B7_%D1%83%D0%B9%D0%B3%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2


Последним крупным этническим компонентом вошедшим в состав современного уйгурского этноса стали могулы (тюркизированные монголы), пришедшие несколькими волнами начиная с XIII в., состоявшие из таких племен как барлас, дуглат, нюгейт, арлат, чурас, байрин и другие.[1] Последняя крупная волна могулов пришла с чагатаидом Саид-ханом в начале XVI в. Изначально говорившие на монгольских языках могулы постепенно ассимилировались местными тюрками, перешли на местный тюркский язык названный чагатайским, приняли ислам (XIV в. Туглук Тимур-хан), стали оседать. Первым племенем уже практически ассимилированным к XVI в. стали дуглаты.
Google translate:
The last major ethnic component that became part of the modern Uyghur ethnos were the Moguls (Turkic Mongols), who came in several waves from the 13th century, consisting of such tribes as Barlas, Duglat, Nyuygt, Arlat, Churas, Bayrin and others. [1] The last large Mogul wave came with Chagataid Said Khan at the beginning of the 16th century. The Moguls, initially speaking Mongolian languages, were gradually assimilated by local Turks, switched to the local Turkic language called Chagatai,

[Bornoz]

Almost all Turkic steppe peoples are genetically mixed with Mongols. There are historical sources saying that a 30,000 Mongol squad has settled in Turkey. Only Kumyks and Karachais have no connection with Mongols.
Interestingly that Mongolian haplogroups appeared among Turkic peoples living west of the Urals mainly not during the Golden Horde, but much later.

Kumyks? :lol:

[Chelubey]

Kumyks? :lol:
?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I think they're more like Mongolified Turkics.

Then how C-M130 is founded only among Khazaks, of all living Turkic people?

[Leto]

Almost all Turkic steppe peoples are genetically mixed with Mongols. There are historical sources saying that a 30,000 Mongol squad has settled in Turkey. Only Kumyks and Karachais have no connection with Mongols.
Interestingly that Mongolian haplogroups appeared among Turkic peoples living west of the Urals mainly not during the Golden Horde, but much later.
Volga Tatars are around 80% West Eurasian autosomally and the vast majority of their haplogroups are also West Eurasian plus N which is Uralic and Finno-Ugric, not Mongolic. If they have some Mongolian ancestry, it must be very small, like 10% or less.

[Ryuk]

Volga Tatars are around 80% West Eurasian autosomally and the vast majority of their haplogroups are also West Eurasian plus N which is Uralic and Finno-Ugric, not Mongolic. If they have some Mongolian ancestry, it must be very small, like 10% or less.

Y DNA N is very ancient and exist long before the uralic peoples.

[Leto]

Y DNA N is very ancient and exist long before the uralic peoples.
It must have spread with them to Eastern Europe.

[Ryuk]

It must have spread with them to Eastern Europe.

Agree,but asiatic branches more ancient and diverse

[Leto]

Agree,but asiatic branches more ancient and diverse
Well, the point was that it's far from the most common Y-haplogroup in modern Mongolia. It's more Siberian and Turkic (Yakut for example), I guess.

[Ryuk]

Well, the point was that it's far from the most common Y-haplogroup in modern Mongolia. It's more Siberian and Turkic (Yakut for example), I guess.

Exactly,We share same point about it.

[Proto-Shaman]

Well, the point was that it's far from the most common Y-haplogroup in modern Mongolia. It's more Siberian and Turkic (Yakut for example), I guess.
N* has origins in Southeast Asia. After NOP split. Turkic Tuvans for example have the highest % of P1, daddy of all Europeans, Indians and Native Americans.

[El_Abominacion]

2 Kazakh 23andme reports, in case anyone is interested.

#1:
https://i.imgur.com/G1VrmuC.png
https://i.imgur.com/LkzJPPE.png

#2:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6024333/uploads/editor/ah/o4h12vreyprf.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6024333/uploads/editor/eu/p91yg8bp91hx.png

[Shubotai]

Yes, the majority of them are turkified Mongols. According to the y-dna composition (https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/d/digx/20160818/20160818145856.gif) of Kazakhs, they carry the same set of y-dna haplogroups as Mongols (C2b*, C-M86, C-M401, C-M407, D1a etc.). In the image (https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/d/digx/20160818/20160818145856.gif) above, in case the names are not understood, they are Mongols, Kyrgyz, Afghan Tajiks/Uzbeks/Turkmens/Hazara/Pashtuns, Pakistani, Iranians and Kazakhs, respectively. The mongolic starcluster is C-M401 (and its father sucblace C-M504) and it is observed that it is present in 13% of Kyrgyz, 4% of Uzbeks, 1.4% of Turkmens, 33.3% of Hazara, 7% of Pakistani men and approximately 15% of Kazakhs.

Even if other y-dna C had a different history at their beginning, like Oirat C-m86, forest Mongolic/Buryat C-m407, when they moved into Kazakhstan they were obviously already mongolic-speaking by then. Although the y-dna composition seems to be a conglomeration of different haplogroups, it is often clear-cut when we dive into specific Kazakh tribes. Therefore, Argyns are mainly y-dna G1 (G-L1323), Naimans are mainly y-dna O2, Qongirat are C-M407, Kipchaks are R-M73/Q-M25 (still hasn't been resolved which of the two), Shanyshkyly are C-F4002 (subclade of M401), Uysyns are also C-F4002, Tore are C-F1756, Alimuly are C-F992. Alshyn are C-M48 and so on. You can read more here in this Kazakhstani research (https://nur.nu.edu.kz/bitstream/handle/123456789/1391/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%96.% 2C%20%D0%96%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BD%20 %D0%9C.%20%D0%AD%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0% BD%D0%B5%D0%B7.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y) by Sabitov and Jabagin. The turkic element comes from Kipchaks and some other tribes in Northeastern Kazakhstan who are y-dna Q. The mongolic element is more prevalent in the south and west of the country, where we find the Senior zhuz and the Junior Zhuz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuz) and tribes like Jalair and Uysyns with mongolic origin. Orta zhuz (Middle Zhuz) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuz) are mostly the earlier inhabitans of Kazakhstan (e.g. Argyns) or later allies of the Mongols (Naimans, Kipchaks).

Regarding C-M407, it is a subclade of C-CTS2657, which is prevalent in Koreans. Mongolic tribes which have a high frequency of C-M407 (Qongirat, Buryat) usually have ethnonyms which are reminiscent of old Korean ones like Qoguryeo, Buyeo. So the coalescence of C-M407 must have happened at a very early stage inside a mongolic speaking environment. These tribes are also characteristic of being semi-farming and semi-nomadic, unlike full scale nomadic mongolic tribes. C-M86, a subclade of C-M48, is higher among Oirats in western Mongolia, Oirat-origin tribes in Kazakhstan and Kalmyks (30%, with only 10% C-M401), who are Oirat-speaking.

An anecdote about this, regarding the Dzhunghar genocide, is that Mongols are angry against Manchu for that decision against an ally nation. But it is now known that the ruling class of Manchu, Aisin Gioro, is y-dna C-M401, coming from the Daur (descendants of para-mongolic Khitan people, also high in C-M401) and Dzhunghars (essentially Oirats) in western Mongolia/Xinjiang Uyghur are C-M86, the main Manchu y-dna haplogroup (taking into account the tungusic origins of Manchu). So it is maybe Mongols that should apologize to Manchu for that genocide.

Finally, an excerpt from wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs#Genetic_studies)states that:
According to a large-scale Kazakhstani study published in 2017, Kazakh males belong to Y-DNA haplogroups C2-M217 (658/1294 = 50.85%, including 322/1294 = 24.88% C-M401, 225/1294 = 17.39% C-M86, 80/1294 = 6.18% C-M407, and 31/1294 = 2.40% C-M217(xM401, M48, M407)), R-M207 (157/1294 = 12.13%, including 78/1294 = 6.03% R1a-M198, 41/1294 = 3.17% R1b-M478, 21/1294 = 1.62% R1b-M269, 13/1294 = 1.00% R2-M124 (predicted), and 4/1294 = 0.31% R-M207(xM198, M478, M269, M124)), O-M175 (140/1294 = 10.82%, including 122/1294 = 9.43% O-M134, 9/1294 = 0.70% O-M122(xM134), and 9/1294 = 0.70% O-M175(xM122)), J-M304 (106/1294 = 8.19%, including 53/1294 = 4.10% J2a-M410 (predicted), 50/1294 = 3.86% J1-M267 (predicted), and 3/1294 = 0.23% J-M304(xJ1, J2a)), N-M231 (69/1294 = 5.33%, including 49/1294 = 3.79% N-M46, 16/1294 = 1.24% N-P43, and 4/1294 = 0.31% N-M231(xP43, M46)), G-M201 (64/1294 = 4.95%, including 44/1294 = 3.40% G1-M285, 18/1294 = 1.39% G2-P287, and 2/1294 = 0.15% G-M201(xM285, P287)), Q-M242 (41/1294 = 3.17%), E-M35 (23/1294 = 1.78%), I-M170 (20/1294 = 1.55%, including 11/1294 = 0.85% I2a-L460 (predicted), 5/1294 = 0.39% I1-M253 (predicted), and 4/1294 = 0.31% I2b-L415 (predicted)), D-M174 (6/1294 = 0.46%), L-M20 (4/1294 = 0.31% (predicted)), H (3/1294 = 0.23% (predicted)), T (2/1294 = 0.15% (predicted)), and K* (1/1294 = 0.08%).[54] However, the distribution was inhomogeneous for some Y-DNA haplogroups: Q-M242 was found predominantly among members of the Qangly tribe (27/40 = 67.50%), C-M407 was found predominantly among members of the Qongyrat tribe (64/95 = 67.37%), O-M134 was found predominantly among members of the Naiman tribe (102/155 = 65.81%), N-M46 was found predominantly among members of the Syrgeli tribe (21/32 = 65.63%), J1-M267 (predicted) was found predominantly among members of the Ysty tribe (36/57 = 63.16%), G1-M285 was found predominantly among members of the Argyn tribe (26/50 = 52.00%), R1b-M478 was found predominantly among members of the Qypshaq tribe (12/29 = 41.38%), and R1a-M198 was found with notable frequency among members of the Suan (13/41 = 31.71%) and Oshaqty (8/29 = 27.59%) tribes and among members of the Qoja caste of Islamic scholars and gentlemen (6/30 = 20.00%), although C-M401 was more common than R1a-M198 among members of the Suan and Oshaqty tribes (25/41 = 60.98% and 11/29 = 37.93%, respectively). Because of this lack of homogeneity among Kazakhs in regard to Y-chromosome DNA, the real percentage of present-day Kazakhs who belong to each Y-DNA haplogroup may differ from the percentages found in this study depending on the proportion of each tribe in the total population of Kazakhs.

The linguistic turkification might have happened in one of the following three ways:
1. The region of Kazakhstan had already been turkified by previous turkic-speaking ruling dynasties, like the Gokturk khaganate, so Mongols had to learn turkic to communicate with their subjects.
2. The linguistic conversion happened in a military environment, before the onset of the expedition, voluntarily, or under a Kipchak leadership. It has to be taken into account that vast areas in Central Asia carry mongolic-specific (either Tungusic, or Korean etc.) haplogroups, so it is unlikely they would independently involve into turkic-speaking simultaenously after their seperation.
3. According to a theory that suggests that Kazakhstan was turkified by a later wave from Kipchaks from Kyrgyzstan who are high in C-F1756, a haplogroup which has a slightly different history from C-M504.

[Ryuk]

.

Dude,you are one of the few sane and expert person in the Apricity.

:clapping:cool::thumb001:

[Shubotai]

Just a small correction: the modal haplogroup among Alimuly (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03176-z)1 is C-M48 (75%), whereas the majority of C2b* in Central Asia is accounted by C-F1756 and to a lesser extent by the native C-F9992.

1. The Connection of the Genetic, Cultural and Geographic Landscapes of Transoxiana (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03176-z), Maxat Zhabagin, Elena Balanovska, Zhaxylyk Sabitov.

[mutabor]

LOL. And Tungus people who have the highest concentration of haplogroup C are Tungusized Mongols? Eh? Haplogroup C doesn't belong to Mongols. It is shared among populations along very wide belt from Northern America ( in Native American populations), among Chukchi-Kamchatka peoples ( reaches 60%), among Tungusic peoples ( may reach 80%).

Haplogroup C is in equal percentages among Kazakhs and Mongols. What does it mean? If Mongols constitute only a part of Kazakhs then haplogroup C have to be smaller in Kazakhs but concentration of haplo C in Kazakhs is not smaller than in Mongols despite bigger population of Kazakhs. Because population of Kazakhs is bigger than Mongols there are more haplo C carriers among Kazakhs than among Mongols. Haplogroup C was major in tribes which now constitute Kazakhs BEFORE Genghis Khan period.

Haplogroup C turns to the West in the point where Tungusic peoples are living.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Migration_of_the_Y_chromosome_haplogroup_C_in_East _Asia.png/800px-Migration_of_the_Y_chromosome_haplogroup_C_in_East _Asia.png

According to this map of haplogroup migrations Kazakhs are C3c1-M22, Tungusic peoples are C3c1-M22, Mongols are C3-M217. The arrow shows migration of Tungusic subclade C3c1-M22 through Mongolia towards Kazakhstan.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

[Phenix]

Mongolified turkified Indo-Europeans.

[mutabor]

Let's listen to the language of Oroqen ( Evenki) Tugusic language who have the highest concentration of haplo C. It doesn't sound like Mongolian at all. There are elements in Oroqen language which are familiar with Turkic languages.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxqYho59K7E&t

[mutabor]

Language of Yukaghir people who live near Chukchi people ( region with haplogroups Q, C, N). Yukaghir language sounds just like Turkic language.

https://joshuaproject.net/assets/media/profiles/maps/m15070_rs.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwTYP1N-1HQ&t

[mutabor]

The most ancient texts of Turkic language ( Orkhon runes) are situated just in the middle of Mongolia. In Turkic text it is said that Turks were fighting with Chinese which means that original Turks were living in very close vicinity to Chinese people. Which correlates with Mongolian territory which is neighboring China.


The Orkhon inscriptions, also known as Orhon Inscriptions, Orhun Inscriptions, Khöshöö Tsaidam monuments (Mongolian: Хөшөө цайдам, also spelled Khoshoo Tsaidam, Koshu-Tsaidam or Höshöö caidam), or Kul Tigin steles, are two memorial installations erected by the Göktürks written in Old Turkic alphabet in the early 8th century in the Orkhon Valley in Mongolia. They were erected in honor of two Turkic princes, Kul Tigin and his brother Bilge Khagan.

The inscriptions, in both Chinese and Old Turkic, relate the legendary origins of the Turks, the golden age of their history, their subjugation by the Chinese, and their liberation by Ilterish Qaghan. In fact, according to one source, the inscriptions contain "rhythmic and parallelistic passages" that resemble that of epics.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/5d/c4/495dc40eff2223ed05a68e711e7627fd.jpg

Location of Orkhon valley

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Location_of_Orkhon_valley.JPG

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Mongolified turkified Indo-Europeans.

indo-europeans weren't chinks

[Phenix]

indo-europeans weren't chinks

Did I said the contrary?

[Chelubey]

The most ancient texts of Turkic language ( Orkhon runes) are situated just in the middle of Mongolia. In Turkic text it is said that Turks were fighting with Chinese which means that original Turks were living in very close vicinity to Chinese people. Which correlates with Mongolian territory which is neighboring China.



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/5d/c4/495dc40eff2223ed05a68e711e7627fd.jpg

Location of Orkhon valley

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Location_of_Orkhon_valley.JPG

I do not see logic in your speech.
Hunnu were just part of the Turks tribes.
One of the hunnic words in Chinese sources is unequivocally Mongolian (initial "n" is absent in proto-Türkic language and having mongolian etymology). Hunnu in China sources= Türkic and Mongolian ethnic groups

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Did I said the contrary?

you're right, R1a is common among kazakhs

[Vlatko Vukovic]

N* has origins in Southeast Asia. After NOP split. Turkic Tuvans for example have the highest % of P1, daddy of all Europeans, Indians and Native Americans.

Since when P1 is daddy, for example, to native Europeans I1 and I2 ?

[mutabor]

Nanai Tungusic ornament and Nanai people in national clothes

http://artyx.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000039/pic/000206.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g8enspgtQPI/UntQhHQmSeI/AAAAAAAAAVQ/GujSZOdB5F8/s1600/DSC06236.JPGhttps://media.nazaccent.ru/files/6d/60/6d6080c6972c28502f43ccc49dc56770.jpg

Kazakh national ornament and national clothes

https://decormaster.kz/images/st/4.jpghttps://st3.depositphotos.com/4404703/14964/v/450/depositphotos_149643772-stock-illustration-set-kazakh-asian-ornaments-and.jpghttp://s017.radikal.ru/i400/1208/57/d93c6af539ec.jpg

[Chelubey]

Nanai Tungusic ornament and Nanai people in national clothes

http://artyx.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000039/pic/000206.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g8enspgtQPI/UntQhHQmSeI/AAAAAAAAAVQ/GujSZOdB5F8/s1600/DSC06236.JPGhttps://media.nazaccent.ru/files/6d/60/6d6080c6972c28502f43ccc49dc56770.jpg

Kazakh national ornament and national clothes

https://decormaster.kz/images/st/4.jpghttps://st3.depositphotos.com/4404703/14964/v/450/depositphotos_149643772-stock-illustration-set-kazakh-asian-ornaments-and.jpghttp://s017.radikal.ru/i400/1208/57/d93c6af539ec.jpg
Yes, Kazakhs are ethnically close to nanai

[mutabor]

Mongolian traditional dress

https://www.dhresource.com/0x0s/f2-albu-g4-M00-BD-40-rBVaEFnM76WAT9eYAAvfmFCNR9Y504.jpg/new-style-national-dress-male-long-robe-mongolian.jpg

[Chelubey]

Mongolian traditional dress

https://www.dhresource.com/0x0s/f2-albu-g4-M00-BD-40-rBVaEFnM76WAT9eYAAvfmFCNR9Y504.jpg/new-style-national-dress-male-long-robe-mongolian.jpg
Looks like a Tuvan dress

[mutabor]

Yes, Kazakhs are ethnically close to nanai

Tungusic, Mongolic and Turkic languages share similar grammar and structure and are placed in Altaic language family.

Tungusic, Mongolic peoples and Kazakhs share common dominating haplogroup C.

Though proto-Turkic language was formed in my opinion in area where haplogroups Q, C and N merged. Somewhere around Western Mongolia.

[Chelubey]

Let's listen to the language of Oroqen ( Evenki) Tugusic language who have the highest concentration of haplo C. It doesn't sound like Mongolian at all. There are elements in Oroqen language which are familiar with Turkic languages.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxqYho59K7E&t
I do not understand the meaning of your speeches.
Lexically, Turkic languages are closer to Mongolian than Tungus. This is a well-known fact. Are you really Kazakh, or are you a Mongolian person?

[mutabor]

I do not understand the meaning of your speeches.
Lexically, Turkic languages are closer to Mongolian than Tungus. This is a well-known fact. Are you really Kazakh, or are you a Mongolian person?

Turkic language doesn't sound very close to Mongolian though there are some similarities. It sounds closer to Northern and Eastern Eurasian languages like Ket, Chukchi, Yukaghir and Eskimo Native American languages.

[Chelubey]

Turkic language doesn't sound very close to Mongolian though there are some similarities. It sounds closer to Northern and Eastern Eurasian languages like Ket, Chukchi, Yukaghir and Eskimo Native American languages.
Are you Mongolian?

[Pandur]

They absolutely are.

[Chelubey]

Can you speek Kazakh?

[Chelubey]

They absolutely are.
He says things are not typical for Kazakhs

[mutabor]

Are you Mongolian?

I'm not Mongolian. I base my opinion on analyses of languages, their grammar, their sound, haplogroup distributions.

For example, Kazakh language is specific and distinct because of its harsh guttural K sound. Such sounds is present only in Eastern Eurasian languages which correlate with migration of haplogroup Q ( in Ket, Chukchi, Eskimo languages). Sure its not only this one sound. The general sound of these languages is similar also.

Chukchi language sounds closer to Kazakh than Mongolian.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wzDs4S6nPA

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-7Jr2F9QmiA/maxresdefault.jpg

[mutabor]

Ket language ( haplogroup Q) also sounds like Kazakh.

Photos of Ket people in this video are misleading because modern Ket people are mixed with Russians.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCnWPOHc0YY

[Chelubey]

I hope you understand that your theory falls under the definition "in my opinion", "it's seems to me" and etc. and has no relation with real scince?
But, as i undestand,you are kazakh, but you cant speek Kazakh?

[Leto]

you're right, R1a is common among kazakhs
No, it is not. Less than 10%. It's common in the Kyrgyz, must be the founder effect. Then again, the ancient Kyrgyz were described as white in medieval Chinese sources, I guess that elite was later diluted by Mongoloids.

[mutabor]

I hope you understand that your theory falls under the definition "in my opinion", "it's seems to me" and etc. and has no relation with real scince?


LOOOOL. It is not even my theory. There is serious Chinese scientific research which places formation of Turks somewhere in Western Mongolia where haplogroups Q and C merged.

[mutabor]

DNA results of Kazakhs indicate at mixed origin between Siberian and Manchurian-Mongolian components. These two components merged and proto-Kazakh tribes were formed.

https://i.imgur.com/G1VrmuC.pnghttps://us.v-cdn.net/6024333/uploads/editor/ah/o4h12vreyprf.pnghttps://i.redd.it/fxct52jh31411.jpg

[Yaglakar]

No, it is not. Less than 10%. It's common in the Kyrgyz, must be the founder effect. Then again, the ancient Kyrgyz were described as white in medieval Chinese sources, I guess that elite was later diluted by Mongoloids.

Ancient Mongoloid Yenisei Kirghiz assimilated Indo-European Tagar culture. The Mongoloids who brought the language to Minusinsk hallow were probably low in numbers, hence dominantly Europoid features in the process of mixing.

[mutabor]

He says things are not typical for Kazakhs

And what other Kazakhs say? That Kazakhs emerged from Scythians, Saka and Massagetae? LOL.

In this case you should listen what nonsense Kyrgyz people spread that all R1a people originated from them Kyrgyz Aryanz. LOOOOL.

[Chelubey]

DNA results of Kazakhs indicate at mixed origin between Siberian and Tungus-Manchurian components. These two components merged and proto-Kazakh tribes were formed.

Proto-kazakh==proto-turk?

[Leto]

Kazakh GEDmatch, obviously a lot of Indo-European/Indo-Iranian admixture

I've posted an Uzbek and an Afghan before. This is another non-European person with a lot of Steppe-related ancestry. He's like 1/3 Scythian

Y-DNA: N1c1
mtDNA: M9a3a

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 34.97
2 East_Asian 21.62
3 West_Asian 12.86
4 Baltic 12.16
5 North_Atlantic 8.6
6 South_Asian 4.6
7 Amerindian 2.69
8 West_Med 1.33
9 Northeast_African 0.75
10 East_Med 0.21
11 Oceanian 0.16
12 Red_Sea 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kazakh 2.75
2 Kirgiz 6.37
3 Hakas 12.94
4 Shors 13.16
5 Altaian 15.34
6 Hazara 16.5
7 Uygur 17.44
8 Uzbeki 17.61
9 Afghan_Turkmen 19.1
10 Mongolian 19.41
11 Aghan_Hazara 20.39
12 Tuvinian 24.69
13 Buryat 28.34
14 Nogay 30.53
15 Ket 33.19
16 Tatar 35.5
17 Mari 35.84
18 Selkup 36.28
19 Afghan_Tadjik 37.38
20 Chuvash 37.47


MDLP K16 Modern Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 31.22
2 SouthEastAsian 23.42
3 Caucasian 10.95
4 NorthEastEuropean 8.64
5 Indian 7.12
6 Steppe 6.77
7 Neolithic 4.79
8 Amerindian 4.41
9 Arctic 2.03
10 NorthAfrican 0.66

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kazakh (Tien_Shan) 4.38
2 Kazakh (CentralKazakhstan) 5.18
3 Kyrgyz (Murgab) 6.6
4 Kazakh (Kazakhstan) 6.75
5 Kyrgyz (Kyrgyzstan) 7.33
6 Kyrgyz (Alichur) 7.67
7 Karakalpak (Karakalpakstan) 8.24
8 Kyrgyz (Naryn) 8.51
9 Kyrgyz (Tong) 8.83
10 Hakas (Khakassia) 11.01
11 Altaian (Altai) 11.89
12 Uygur (Uzbekistan) 13.09
13 Hazara (Baluchistan) 13.16
14 Uygur (Xinjiang) 13.33
15 Shor (Kemerovo) 14.73
16 Mongolian (Mongolia) 15.36
17 Bashkir (Muradymovo) 16.45
18 Kalmyk (Kalmykia) 16.62
19 Bashkir (Ufa) 17.6
20 Turkmen (Shumanay) 17.66


Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 30.37
2 Siberian 25.56
3 North_European 16.34
4 Gedrosia 9.36
5 Caucasus 7.61
6 Atlantic_Med 3.91
7 Southeast_Asian 3.52
8 South_Asian 3.1
9 Southwest_Asian 0.22

1 54.9% Uygur (HGDP) + 45.1% Altai (Rasmussen) @ 6.03
2 67.4% Uygur (HGDP) + 32.6% Tuva (Rasmussen) @ 6.73


HarappaWorld Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Asian 28.35
2 Siberian 24.54
3 NE-Euro 15.5
4 Baloch 9.95
5 Caucasian 7.58
6 Beringian 4.55
7 S-Indian 3.48
8 Mediterranean 3.46
9 American 1.39
10 SE-Asian 0.75
11 Papuan 0.33
12 SW-Asian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kazakh (harappa) 5.11
2 kyrgyz (xing) 8.29
3 kyrgyz (hodoglugil) 9.16
4 uyghur (hgdp) 13.32
5 hazara (hgdp) 13.95
6 uzbek (behar) 15.34
7 altaian (rasmussen) 15.99
8 mongolian (rasmussen) 19.48
9 tuvinian (rasmussen) 27.17
10 buryat (xing) 28.66
11 buryat (rasmussen) 30.34
12 oroqen (hgdp) 32.27
13 nogai (yunusbayev) 34.36
14 daur (hgdp) 35.35
15 hezhen (hgdp) 35.85
16 yukaghir (rasmussen) 36.03
17 tajik (yunusbayev) 36.16
18 turkmen (yunusbayev) 36.31
19 nepalese-b (xing) 36.41
20 mongola (hgdp) 36.46

[Chelubey]

And what other Kazakhs say? That Kazakhs emerged from Scythians, Saka and Massagetae? LOL.

In this case you should listen what nonsense Kyrgyz people spread that all R1a people originated from them Kyrgyz Ayranz. LOOOOL.
The Kyrgyz cubclades of ra1 are identical to the Hunnic paleo R1a subclades from the same region.

[Leto]

Ancient Mongoloid Yenisei Kirghiz assimilated Indo-European Tagar culture. The Mongoloids who brought the language to Minusinsk hallow were probably low in numbers, hence dominantly Europoid features in the process of mixing.
Are the modern Kyrgyz closely related to the Yenisei ones? How much Mongolian blood do they have?

[Ryuk]

@Mutabor

You have to understand that,to defend the proximity of one language family to another language family, you must look at the structure of the proto language of that language family.
If you compare it to random language, you'il make a mistake.

For example,Sanskrit contains a large amount of retroflex sounds.This feature is shared with Dravidian language family and burusashki.According to your logic,because Sanskrit is similar to Dravidian languages,the PIE must be related to the Dravidian language family.
But it has nothing to do.Retroflex sounds have passed through Sanskrit from native Indian languages and the PIE language neither contains retroflex nor is close to Dravidian languages.

Also, the sound of Siberian languages you share does not resemble any Turkic language.


. Proto Bulgaro turkic language did not contain laryngeal,uvular or harsh sounds,instead it contains dental, palatal,velar and labial consonants.

there are significant differences between Turkic languages and paleo Siberian languages.

1-)Turkic languages have rich vovels,but there is not much in PS languages.

2-)Turkic languages have not as consonants as PS languages.

3-)while Turkish languages are nominativ languages,PS languages are more ergative.

4-)Turkic languages are agglutinativ,PS languages are polysentetic


Turkic consonants: labial(p,b,m) dental(t,d,s,n,l,r),palatal(č,S,s,ñ,N,R,L),velar(k ,g,q,G)

Turkic vovels:a,aa,e,ee,i,ii,ï,ïï,o,oo,ö,öö,u,uu,ü,üü,é,é é,perhaps ä,ää

[mutabor]

Proto-kazakh==proto-turk?

Haplogroups Q, C and N participated in original formation of proto-Turks. It is difficult to distinguish these three groups since they all three speak languages with similar agglutinative grammatical structure ( including Uralic and many Native American languages). R1a in Altai region was assimilated in my opinion.

[Yaglakar]

The Kyrgyz cubclades of ra1 are identical to the Hunnic paleo R1a subclades from the same region.

main Kyrgyz r1a subclade is r-Z2125, pashtuns have a similar subclade but based on markers origins are different and several thousand years apart. Kyrgyz one is apparently Altaian, several Altains share common markers with the Kyrgyz who tested themselves. A branch of Yenisey Kirghiz must have expanded to Altai and northern Kazakhstan (post 850), mixed with Kimek-Qipchaqs, then migrated to what is today Kyrgyzstan with the Mongol conquests. Do we have Hunnic markers? Because talking about haplogroups and subclades is useless.

[Qamari]

Yes, the majority of them are turkified Mongols. According to the y-dna composition (https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/d/digx/20160818/20160818145856.gif) of Kazakhs, they carry the same set of y-dna haplogroups as Mongols (C2b*, C-M86, C-M401, C-M407, D1a etc.). In the image (https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/d/digx/20160818/20160818145856.gif) above, in case the names are not understood, they are Mongols, Kyrgyz, Afghan Tajiks/Uzbeks/Turkmens/Hazara/Pashtuns, Pakistani, Iranians and Kazakhs, respectively. The mongolic starcluster is C-M401 (and its father sucblace C-M504) and it is observed that it is present in 13% of Kyrgyz, 4% of Uzbeks, 1.4% of Turkmens, 33.3% of Hazara, 7% of Pakistani men and approximately 15% of Kazakhs.

Even if other y-dna C had a different history at their beginning, like Oirat C-m86, forest Mongolic/Buryat C-m407, when they moved into Kazakhstan they were obviously already mongolic-speaking by then. Although the y-dna composition seems to be a conglomeration of different haplogroups, it is often clear-cut when we dive into specific Kazakh tribes. Therefore, Argyns are mainly y-dna G1 (G-L1323), Naimans are mainly y-dna O2, Qongirat are C-M407, Kipchaks are R-M73/Q-M25 (still hasn't been resolved which of the two), Shanyshkyly are C-F4002 (subclade of M401), Uysyns are also C-F4002, Tore are C-F1756, Alimuly are C-F992. Alshyn are C-M48 and so on. You can read more here in this Kazakhstani research (https://nur.nu.edu.kz/bitstream/handle/123456789/1391/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%96.% 2C%20%D0%96%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BD%20 %D0%9C.%20%D0%AD%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0% BD%D0%B5%D0%B7.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y) by Sabitov and Jabagin. The turkic element comes from Kipchaks and some other tribes in Northeastern Kazakhstan who are y-dna Q. The mongolic element is more prevalent in the south and west of the country, where we find the Senior zhuz and the Junior Zhuz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuz) and tribes like Jalair and Uysyns with mongolic origin. Orta zhuz (Middle Zhuz) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuz) are mostly the earlier inhabitans of Kazakhstan (e.g. Argyns) or later allies of the Mongols (Naimans, Kipchaks).

Regarding C-M407, it is a subclade of C-CTS2657, which is prevalent in Koreans. Mongolic tribes which have a high frequency of C-M407 (Qongirat, Buryat) usually have ethnonyms which are reminiscent of old Korean ones like Qoguryeo, Buyeo. So the coalescence of C-M407 must have happened at a very early stage inside a mongolic speaking environment. These tribes are also characteristic of being semi-farming and semi-nomadic, unlike full scale nomadic mongolic tribes. C-M86, a subclade of C-M48, is higher among Oirats in western Mongolia, Oirat-origin tribes in Kazakhstan and Kalmyks (30%, with only 10% C-M401), who are Oirat-speaking.

An anecdote about this, regarding the Dzhunghar genocide, is that Mongols are angry against Manchu for that decision against an ally nation. But it is now known that the ruling class of Manchu, Aisin Gioro, is y-dna C-M401, coming from the Daur (descendants of para-mongolic Khitan people, also high in C-M401) and Dzhunghars (essentially Oirats) in western Mongolia/Xinjiang Uyghur are C-M86, the main Manchu y-dna haplogroup (taking into account the tungusic origins of Manchu). So it is maybe Mongols that should apologize to Manchu for that genocide.

Finally, an excerpt from wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs#Genetic_studies)states that:
According to a large-scale Kazakhstani study published in 2017, Kazakh males belong to Y-DNA haplogroups C2-M217 (658/1294 = 50.85%, including 322/1294 = 24.88% C-M401, 225/1294 = 17.39% C-M86, 80/1294 = 6.18% C-M407, and 31/1294 = 2.40% C-M217(xM401, M48, M407)), R-M207 (157/1294 = 12.13%, including 78/1294 = 6.03% R1a-M198, 41/1294 = 3.17% R1b-M478, 21/1294 = 1.62% R1b-M269, 13/1294 = 1.00% R2-M124 (predicted), and 4/1294 = 0.31% R-M207(xM198, M478, M269, M124)), O-M175 (140/1294 = 10.82%, including 122/1294 = 9.43% O-M134, 9/1294 = 0.70% O-M122(xM134), and 9/1294 = 0.70% O-M175(xM122)), J-M304 (106/1294 = 8.19%, including 53/1294 = 4.10% J2a-M410 (predicted), 50/1294 = 3.86% J1-M267 (predicted), and 3/1294 = 0.23% J-M304(xJ1, J2a)), N-M231 (69/1294 = 5.33%, including 49/1294 = 3.79% N-M46, 16/1294 = 1.24% N-P43, and 4/1294 = 0.31% N-M231(xP43, M46)), G-M201 (64/1294 = 4.95%, including 44/1294 = 3.40% G1-M285, 18/1294 = 1.39% G2-P287, and 2/1294 = 0.15% G-M201(xM285, P287)), Q-M242 (41/1294 = 3.17%), E-M35 (23/1294 = 1.78%), I-M170 (20/1294 = 1.55%, including 11/1294 = 0.85% I2a-L460 (predicted), 5/1294 = 0.39% I1-M253 (predicted), and 4/1294 = 0.31% I2b-L415 (predicted)), D-M174 (6/1294 = 0.46%), L-M20 (4/1294 = 0.31% (predicted)), H (3/1294 = 0.23% (predicted)), T (2/1294 = 0.15% (predicted)), and K* (1/1294 = 0.08%).[54] However, the distribution was inhomogeneous for some Y-DNA haplogroups: Q-M242 was found predominantly among members of the Qangly tribe (27/40 = 67.50%), C-M407 was found predominantly among members of the Qongyrat tribe (64/95 = 67.37%), O-M134 was found predominantly among members of the Naiman tribe (102/155 = 65.81%), N-M46 was found predominantly among members of the Syrgeli tribe (21/32 = 65.63%), J1-M267 (predicted) was found predominantly among members of the Ysty tribe (36/57 = 63.16%), G1-M285 was found predominantly among members of the Argyn tribe (26/50 = 52.00%), R1b-M478 was found predominantly among members of the Qypshaq tribe (12/29 = 41.38%), and R1a-M198 was found with notable frequency among members of the Suan (13/41 = 31.71%) and Oshaqty (8/29 = 27.59%) tribes and among members of the Qoja caste of Islamic scholars and gentlemen (6/30 = 20.00%), although C-M401 was more common than R1a-M198 among members of the Suan and Oshaqty tribes (25/41 = 60.98% and 11/29 = 37.93%, respectively). Because of this lack of homogeneity among Kazakhs in regard to Y-chromosome DNA, the real percentage of present-day Kazakhs who belong to each Y-DNA haplogroup may differ from the percentages found in this study depending on the proportion of each tribe in the total population of Kazakhs.

The linguistic turkification might have happened in one of the following three ways:
1. The region of Kazakhstan had already been turkified by previous turkic-speaking ruling dynasties, like the Gokturk khaganate, so Mongols had to learn turkic to communicate with their subjects.
2. The linguistic conversion happened in a military environment, before the onset of the expedition, voluntarily, or under a Kipchak leadership. It has to be taken into account that vast areas in Central Asia carry mongolic-specific (either Tungusic, or Korean etc.) haplogroups, so it is unlikely they would independently involve into turkic-speaking simultaenously after their seperation.
3. According to a theory that suggests that Kazakhstan was turkified by a later wave from Kipchaks from Kyrgyzstan who are high in C-F1756, a haplogroup which has a slightly different history from C-M504.

Very interesting, thank you !

[mutabor]

@Mutabor

You have to understand that,to defend the proximity of one language family to another language family, you must look at the structure of the proto language of that language family.

For example,Sanskrit contains a large amount of retroflex sounds.This feature is shared with Dravidian language family and burusashki.According to your logic,because Sanskrit is similar to Dravidian languages,the PIE must be related to the Dravidian language family.
But it has nothing to do.Retroflex sounds have passed through Sanskrit from native Indian languages and the PIE language neither contains retroflex nor is close to Dravidian languages.


But Dravidian populations participated in formation of Sanskrit language even though it was originally from different peoples. Hence original sound shifted towards sound of assimilated language. A lot of languages are hybrids. Uzbek is a mixture of Turkic and Persian hence sound shift towards Persian pronunciation.

Turkic language was created by different tribes who merged together. Judging from DNA analysis and sound of surrounding peoples proto-Turkic was formed by merging of Siberian and Manchurian-Mongolian components. Siberian component is influenced by ANE populations including linguistic influence.

I'm not saying that proto-Turkic = paleo-Siberian. I say that I hear influences from paleo-Siberian languages. Grammar could be of Tungusic origin but sound shift could be attributed to paleo-Siberian tribes.

[Yaglakar]

Are the modern Kyrgyz closely related to the Yenisei ones? How much Mongolian blood do they have?

Well at least they carried the ethnonym to what is today Kyrgyzstan. The rest is unclear, the migrations patterns i mean due to absence of documented sources. But how much they are related is debatable. Their language is classified as Qipchaq, but they have certain Altaian features, remnants if you will. I am not a fan of Turkic language classifications anyway, they are too forced by linguists. Traditional economy of Yenisey Kirghiz is also different from Kyrgyz, or rather their immediate nomadic ancestors. Yenisey Kirghiz possessed a mixed economy - agro-pastoral. Minusinsk is not your traditional steppe zone if you know what i mean, perhaps this is one of the primary reason for limited Mongolid proto-Turkic penetration and more Europoid features.

But ethnonyms and forms of self-identification including tribal designations seem to have changed easily throughout history of the eastern steppe. There were the Türks a separate people, but then for some reason by 10th century all Turkics began to identify as Türks with little or no connection to the actual clan or people. The migration patterns of Oghuz are also unclear and how they appeared in Aral-Caspian zone and why they identified themselves as such when the majority of Oghuz/Toquz Oghuz remained in Mongolia struggling with the Türks.

[mutabor]

Tungusic, Mongolic peoples and Turkic Kazakhs are haplogroup C. Altaic linguistic family.

Poles, Ukrainians and Russians are R1a. Slavic linguistic family.

If Kazakhs are turkified Mongols, then thinking in the same manner Russians are russified Poles or Ukrainians. Ukrainians are polified Russians etc. LOOOOOL.

Since haplogroup C was expanding from Tungusic populations Mongols are mongolified Tungusic people.

Mongols themselves are not a pure reference population but a mix of Siberian and Tungus-Mongolian peoples.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJYyNhQ0yMI

[Freeroostah]

Not really. They are only about 60% Mongoloid and have a lot of Scythian/Aryan admixture. Mongolians are 80-90% Mongoloid.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtzCNlxHBHHgF4v8UX9_2rW0zlJ4GJjn_RbmpdEEiww/edit#gid=0

The only people who have pred. Scythian ancestry in Kazakhstan are the Russians. Kazakhs as an ethnic group are very Asian looking therefore Mongols and Kipchak Turks

[Mingle]

Tungusic, Mongolic peoples and Turkic Kazakhs are haplogroup C. Altaic linguistic family.

Poles, Ukrainians and Russians are R1a. Slavic linguistic family.

If Kazakhs are turkified Mongols, then thinking in the same manner Russians are russified Poles or Ukrainians. Ukrainians are polified Russians etc. LOOOOOL.

Since haplogroup C was expanding from Tungusic populations Mongols are mongolified Tungusic people.

Mongols themselves are not a pure reference population but a mix of Siberian and Tungus-Mongolian peoples.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJYyNhQ0yMI

But Ukrainians (and Belorussians) are of Russian origin though. If they weren't conquered by the PLC, then they'd be calling themselves Russians today. They're only not considered Russia cause of historical circumstances. Calling Ukrainians "Polonized Russians" is more true than false.

This doesn't mean that Kazakhs are Mongols though. They may just share a common ancient origin. There's a decent argument presented by a Mongol user earlier in this thread that you should rebuke. I personally don't have any opinion on the subject yet.

[Mingle]

The only people who have Scythian ancestry in Kazakhstan are the Russians. Kazakhs as an ethnic group are very Asian looking therefore Mongols and Kipchak Turks

Them looking Asian is irrelevant. They score a very significant amount of West Eurasian on all calculators. Much of that may be Scythian.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

The only people who have pred. Scythian ancestry in Kazakhstan are the Russians. Kazakhs as an ethnic group are very Asian looking therefore Mongols and Kipchak Turks

Yes in phenotypes, but genetically they arent pure mongoloids

[mutabor]

Them looking Asian is irrelevant. They score a very significant amount of West Eurasian on all calculators. Much of that may be Scythian.

If a West Eurasian component influenced a proto-Turkic language it has to be R1b ( but not R1a) because the only component which is missing in East Eurasian languages is Umlaut vowel system ( present in Germanic and French languages) which is very important in Turkic language.

Which again returns us to Q haplogroup influence because Q and R1b are related. Maybe Bashkirs with their high R1b % are a link to that influence.

[Leto]

But Ukrainians (and Belorussians) are of Russian origin though. If they weren't conquered by the PLC, then they'd be calling themselves Russians today. They're only not considered Russia cause of historical circumstances. Calling Ukrainians "Polonized Russians" is more true than false.

This doesn't mean that Kazakhs are Mongols though. They may just share a common ancient origin. There's a decent argument presented by a Mongol user earlier in this thread that you should rebuke. I personally don't have any opinion on the subject yet.
Great answer, spot on :thumb001:

[Leto]

Them looking Asian is irrelevant. They score a very significant amount of West Eurasian on all calculators. Much of that may be Scythian.


Yes in phenotypes, but genetically they arent pure mongoloids
This. African Americans don't look European either but they do have British ancestry unlike Polish and Italian Americans. I think Russians have little to no direct Scythian ancestry. Southern Russia and Eastern Ukraine were practically depopulated after the Mongol invasion and was repopulated only after 1600 or so.

[Blondie]

We wuz hunz n shiet :rotfl:

Guys plus more info:

1. Haplogroup N is 100% uralic, not mongol not turkic only uralic. Of course you can find it in East Asia too, because this marker originated from there. Ancestors of haplogroup N population were east asians just like mongols, turks, koreans, japs etc. Later this population migrated to Europe and they were mixed with mesolithic cromagnoid europeans, it was a birth moment of proto-uralic population 10000 years ago in North East Europe.

2. Haplogroup C is mongol! :)

"Although Haplogroup C-M130 attains its highest frequencies among the indigenous populations of Kazakhstan, Mongolia"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130
Khazaks have significant mongolian ancestry, because of mongol invasion. Haplogroup C is not native in Central Asia but result of mongol conquerors. The biggest concentrations of haplogrop C is in Inner Mongolia, East Mongolia.

3. The haplogroup Q is proto-altaic. Common among turks, mongols, huns, american indians (who are altaic by genetically).

Q1a is mongol, american indian, east siberian
Q1b is turkic

"Many of clades of haplogroup Q1a are believed to have been brought by the Huns, the Mongols and the Turks, who all originated in the Altai region and around modern Mongolia. Haplogroup Q has been identified in Iron Age remains from Hunnic sites in Mongolia by Petkovski et al. (2006) and in Xinjiang by Kang et al. (2013). "
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

[Leto]

We wuz hunz n shiet :rotfl:

Guys plus more info:

1. Haplogroup N is 100% uralic, not mongol not turkic only uralic. Of course you can find it in East Asia too, because this marker originated from there. Ancestors of haplogroup N population were east asians just like mongols, turks, koreans, japs etc. Later this population migrated to Europe and they were mixed with mesolithic cromagnoid europeans, it was a birth moment of proto-uralic population 10000 years ago in North East Europe.

10,000 years ago in NE Europe? Not sure.

[mutabor]

Khazaks have significant mongolian ancestry, because of mongol invasion. Haplogroup C is not native in Central Asia but result of mongol conquerors. The biggest concentrations of haplogrop C is in Inner Mongolia, East Mongolia.
Q1b is turkic


I'm disappointed in Mongols. In Kazakhs haplogroup C is 50-60%. Which means that bigger number of powerful conquerors Mongols were Turkified by smaller number of conquered Turks living in Central Asia.

Kypchak Turk Q1b people pride!

Not only that. Conquered Kypchaks made Mongols to completely displace Persian language from Central Asia which was lingua franca in Uzbekistan with Turkic language. Very smart plan!

[Chelubey]

LOOOOL. It is not even my theory. There is serious Chinese scientific research which places formation of Turks somewhere in Western Mongolia where haplogroups Q and C merged.
I doubt that the Chinese scientists, after listening records of voices of Chuchkcha and Kets, made their conclusions based on it

[Blondie]

10,000 years ago in NE Europe? Not sure.

I'm sure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunda_culture

[Blondie]

In Kazakhs haplogroup C is 50-60%.

Nope, only 36%:

https://haplogruplar.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/kazaklar-y-dna-haplogrup-dagilimi.jpg

East mongolia, Inner Mongolia has 70-90% haplogroup C:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Geographic_distributions_of_Y_chromosome_haplogrou ps_C_in_East_Asia.png

1/3 of kazakh population is descedants of mongols :)

[mutabor]

Nope, only 36%:

https://haplogruplar.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/kazaklar-y-dna-haplogrup-dagilimi.jpg

East mongolia, Inner Mongolia has 70-90% haplogroup C:

1/3 of kazakh population is descedants of mongols :)

Kazakhs are only 2% Turk ( Q1)? God bless such a strong bad ass group. 2% Q1 Turkified the majority of Kazakhs.

But I'm still disappointed in Mongols because being a big number they didn't manage to Mongolify even a small part of big semi-empty Kazakhstan territory. Very poor results!

Aryanz R1a and R1b: "We love Turkic language. We will help to Turkify Mongol invaders."
J and G Caucasus master races: "Allahu Akbar! Bros lets together Turkify Mongol invaders!"

[Leto]

I'm sure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunda_culture
Hm. So you believe the proto-Uralic originated somewhere in Estonia? I thought the proto-FU originated somewhere in Udmurtia and Perm Krai (the Kama river).

[Blondie]

Hm. So you believe the proto-Uralic originated somewhere in Estonia? I thought the proto-FU originated somewhere in Udmurtia and Perm Krai (the Kama river).

They originated from North East Europe.

[Chelubey]

Kazakhs are only 2% Turk ( Q1)? God bless such a strong bad ass group. 2% Q1 Turkified the majority of Kazakhs.

But I'm still disappointed in Mongols because being a big number they didn't manage to Mongolify even a small part of big semi-empty Kazakhstan territory. Very poor results!

Aryanz R1a and R1b: "We love Turkic language. We will help to Turkify Mongol invaders."
J and G Caucasus master races: "Allahu Akbar! Bros lets together Turkify Mongol invaders!"
Ancient Mongols loved ancient Turks and willingly assimilated among them. All present-day Turkic people are partly Mongols.
:)

[Leto]

Ancient Mongols loved ancient Turks and willingly assimilated among them. All present-day Turkic people are partly Mongols.
:)
Dude, they destroyed your ancestrors' statehood - Volga Bulgaria. It was a Muslim state which was destroyed by the pagan savages. Modern Tatars are around 80% European/West Eurasian, identifying with Genghis Khan is ridiculous, it's basically 'we wuz kangz and shit, we konquered you Slav(e)s, we wuz da masters'. Volga Tatars have more Finno-Ugric ancestry than Mongolian and are generally closer to Russians genetically than to Mongols.

Have you seen Mongols looking like Ilsur Metshin, the mayor of Kazan?
http://zampolit.com/upload/iblock/354/354d527228da62d59a8bd0a7ab7626cf.jpg

[Leto]

My threads with actual DNA results, no goddamn speculations!

Mongolian GEDmatch results (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?271211-Mongolian-GEDmatch-results)
Volga Tatar GEDmatch (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?241050-Volga-Tatar-GEDmatch)

[mutabor]

Dude, they destroyed your ancestrors' statehood - Volga Bulgaria. It was a Muslim state which was destroyed by the pagan savages.

Kazan was very rich and prosperous city in Golden Horde until Russians conquered it. Since then Kazan turned into provincial city and lost its glory.

[Leto]

Kazan was very rich and prosperous city in Golden Horde until Russians conquered it. Since then Kazan turned into provincial city and lost its glory.
Tatarstan is actually one of the strongest regions of Russia economically. Nice try.

[Chelubey]

Dude, they destroyed your ancestrors' statehood - Volga Bulgaria.
They rejected Mongolian love and were punished.

Volga Tatars have more Finno-Ugric ancestry than Mongolian and are generally closer to Russians genetically than to Mongols.
I saw a couple of autosomal tests of Tatars.
Their European component is modeled as a mix of Baltic people + Western Slavs + Balkan people and perhaps has no recent Finno-Ugric origin and goes back to the local Iron Age - Bronze Age

[Leto]

I saw a couple of autosomal tests of Tatars.
Their European component is modeled as a mix of Baltic people + Western Slavs + Balkan people and perhaps has no recent Finno-Ugric origin and goes back to the local Iron Age - Bronze Age
Well, Finno-Ugric is a linguistic term, there's no such race as Finno-Ugric. It's a group of mutually unintelligible languages and some prehistoric genetic connections such as the N haplogroup. Before the Bulgars migrated to the Middle Volga after the 600s AD, the region was presumably populated by FU-speaking groups. The Chuvash speak a language the most closely related to that of the Volga Bulgars, as far I know. Modern Tatar is a Kipchak language adopted after the Mongol invasion.

[Chelubey]

Well, Finno-Ugric is a linguistic term, there's no such race as Finno-Ugric. It's a group of mutually unintelligible languages and some prehistoric genetic connections such as the N haplogroup. Before the Bulgars migrated to the Middle Volga after the 600s AD, the region was presumably populated by FU-speaking groups. The Chuvash speak a language the most closely related to that of the Volga Bulgars, as far I know. Modern Tatar is a Kipchak language adopted after the Mongol invasion.
No, Tatar language represents a mixture of two Turkic dialects (with initial "j" and initial "y").
Those who have an initial "j" - seem to be of Bulgarian origin. Those who have initial "y" are descendants of Kipachak/Kuman/Nogai

[Leto]

A Mishar Tatar 'academic' sample on GEDmatch: Z022368

There is a lot of Tatar kits on GM, I myself had around 100. This forum is not very interested in actual data, more in baseless speculations.

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit Z022368

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 42.75
2 Caucasian 22.08
3 East_Siberian 8.14
4 Ancestral_Altaic 7.96
5 South_Central_Asian 6.68
6 Near_East 3.64
7 Tungus-Altaic 3.61
8 Austronesian 1.34
9 North_African 1.2
10 Australoid 0.96
11 Amerindian 0.62
12 Arctic 0.6
13 Melano_Polynesian 0.33
14 South_East_Asian 0.08
15 European_Early_Farmers 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tatar_Mishar ( ) 2.11
2 Tatar ( ) 7.47
3 Tatar_Kryashen ( ) 7.92
4 Tatar-Kazan ( ) 8.05
5 Vepsa ( ) 8.33
6 Russian-North ( ) 8.58
7 Russian_Vologda ( ) 8.72
8 Tatar-Mishar ( ) 8.94
9 Karelian ( ) 9.61
10 Erzya ( ) 9.7
11 Russian-Ural ( ) 9.73
12 Chuvashs ( ) 9.91
13 Komi ( ) 10.42
14 Tatar_Lithuania ( ) 11.7
15 Estonian ( ) 11.76
16 Moksha ( ) 11.92
17 Mordovian ( ) 12
18 Russian-Upper-Volga ( ) 12.05
19 Saami_Kola ( ) 12.09
20 Chuvash ( ) 12.13

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 99% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1% Adjara ( ) @ 1.99
2 98.8% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.2% Ossetian ( ) @ 2
3 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian_Svan ( ) @ 2
4 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2
5 98.7% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.3% North_Ossetian ( ) @ 2
6 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Yemenite_Jew ( ) @ 2
7 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Abkhasian ( ) @ 2.01
8 98.7% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.3% Chechen ( ) @ 2.01
9 98.7% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.3% Kabardin ( ) @ 2.01
10 99.2% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.8% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.01
11 98.8% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.2% Balkar ( ) @ 2.01
12 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian_Megrelia ( ) @ 2.01
13 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Avar ( ) @ 2.01
14 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian ( ) @ 2.01
15 98.4% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.6% Lak ( ) @ 2.01
16 98.4% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.6% Dargin_Urkarah ( ) @ 2.01
17 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Lezgin ( ) @ 2.01
18 99% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1% Kakheti ( ) @ 2.01
19 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Baku_WGA ( ) @ 2.02
20 98.8% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.2% Adygei ( ) @ 2.02

[Basileus]

Scythians were said to be very light skinned and light haired in contrast to the Greeks in ancient Greece. And also, in the area that is Kazakhstan, ancient Greeks named their population "savromatae" as far as I am aware, meaning serpent-eyed, in contrast to Scythae, who were the Scythians and according to folk mythology was a Greek-Amazon tribe.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Scythians were said to be very light skinned and light haired in contrast to the Greeks in ancient Greece. And also, in the area that is Kazakhstan, ancient Greeks named their population "savromatae" as far as I am aware, meaning serpent-eyed, in contrast to Scythae, who were the Scythians and according to folk mythology was a Greek-Amazon tribe.

ancient greeks also mentioned extreme ugliness of sarmatians as their characteristic in ancient texts

[Chelubey]

Nanai Tungusic ornament and Nanai people in national clothes
https://media.nazaccent.ru/files/6d/60/6d6080c6972c28502f43ccc49dc56770.jpg

Kazakh national ornament and national clothes

[IMG]http://s017.radikal.ru/i400/1208/57/d93c6af539ec.jpg
All these patterns on cotton and silk fabrics perhaps spread throughout Siberia not earlier than 1-2 millennia BC or much later with Chinese silk.
I think it's a bad idea to date this process by neolithic times.
Chinese dress:
https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-pdb/25978/1e9b4661-e63e-4ef6-bfaa-bb92566fe295/s1200

[Blondie]

Scythians were said to be very light skinned and light haired in contrast to the Greeks in ancient Greece. And also, in the area that is Kazakhstan, ancient Greeks named their population "savromatae" as far as I am aware, meaning serpent-eyed, in contrast to Scythae, who were the Scythians and according to folk mythology was a Greek-Amazon tribe.

Scythians were light skinned light haired white iranic peoples.

Face reconstructions:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/4f/c2/77/4fc277dfab3c68f6f773f8831aaeee4f.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/3c/b5/843cb5a2af073d5f06cea017b785c33d.jpg

[Chelubey]

A Mishar Tatar 'academic' sample on GEDmatch: Z022368

There is a lot of Tatar kits on GM, I myself had around 100. This forum is not very interested in actual data, more in baseless speculations.

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit Z022368

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 42.75
2 Caucasian 22.08
3 East_Siberian 8.14
4 Ancestral_Altaic 7.96
5 South_Central_Asian 6.68
6 Near_East 3.64
7 Tungus-Altaic 3.61
8 Austronesian 1.34
9 North_African 1.2
10 Australoid 0.96
11 Amerindian 0.62
12 Arctic 0.6
13 Melano_Polynesian 0.33
14 South_East_Asian 0.08
15 European_Early_Farmers 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tatar_Mishar ( ) 2.11
2 Tatar ( ) 7.47
3 Tatar_Kryashen ( ) 7.92
4 Tatar-Kazan ( ) 8.05
5 Vepsa ( ) 8.33
6 Russian-North ( ) 8.58
7 Russian_Vologda ( ) 8.72
8 Tatar-Mishar ( ) 8.94
9 Karelian ( ) 9.61
10 Erzya ( ) 9.7
11 Russian-Ural ( ) 9.73
12 Chuvashs ( ) 9.91
13 Komi ( ) 10.42
14 Tatar_Lithuania ( ) 11.7
15 Estonian ( ) 11.76
16 Moksha ( ) 11.92
17 Mordovian ( ) 12
18 Russian-Upper-Volga ( ) 12.05
19 Saami_Kola ( ) 12.09
20 Chuvash ( ) 12.13

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 99% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1% Adjara ( ) @ 1.99
2 98.8% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.2% Ossetian ( ) @ 2
3 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian_Svan ( ) @ 2
4 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2
5 98.7% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.3% North_Ossetian ( ) @ 2
6 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Yemenite_Jew ( ) @ 2
7 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Abkhasian ( ) @ 2.01
8 98.7% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.3% Chechen ( ) @ 2.01
9 98.7% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.3% Kabardin ( ) @ 2.01
10 99.2% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.8% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.01
11 98.8% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.2% Balkar ( ) @ 2.01
12 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian_Megrelia ( ) @ 2.01
13 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Avar ( ) @ 2.01
14 99.1% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 0.9% Georgian ( ) @ 2.01
15 98.4% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.6% Lak ( ) @ 2.01
16 98.4% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.6% Dargin_Urkarah ( ) @ 2.01
17 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Lezgin ( ) @ 2.01
18 99% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1% Kakheti ( ) @ 2.01
19 98.5% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.5% Baku_WGA ( ) @ 2.02
20 98.8% Tatar_Mishar ( ) + 1.2% Adygei ( ) @ 2.02
Tatars are closer to north-western Finnic than to Volga Finnic - Erzya, Udmurt, Mari. This is expected, given the differences in haplogroups.

[Blondie]

Original iranic (aryan) race type:
http://humanphenotypes.net/ProtoNordid.html

[Chelubey]

Scythians were light skinned light haired white iranic peoples.

Face reconstructions:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/4f/c2/77/4fc277dfab3c68f6f773f8831aaeee4f.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/3c/b5/843cb5a2af073d5f06cea017b785c33d.jpg
I found a description of look of Kypchaks and Uigurs in the 15th (!) century in Chinese sources.
It found in comments to the law governing marriage unions (including with foreigners)
Ming Dynasty Laws:
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokumenty/China/XIV/1360-1380/Zakony_Min_2/frametext5.htm
Comments:
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokumenty/China/XIV/1360-1380/Zakony_Min_2/primtext5.phtml
google translate:

123 . Uighurs and Kipchaks are the most ugly among the Samuzhen ... Uigurs have curly hair and a big nose, Kipchaks have yellow hair and blue eyes. Their appearance is ugly and different [from ours], so ... it happens that the Chinese do not want to marry them.
Chinese racists!!!

[Blondie]

I found a description of look of Kypchaks and Uigurs in the 15th (!) century in Chinese sources.

Do you know why? Check this out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan#Proto-Indo-Iranian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians

[mutabor]

All these patterns on cotton and silk fabrics perhaps spread throughout Siberia not earlier than 1-2 millennia BC or much later with Chinese silk.
I think it's a bad idea to date this process by neolithic times.
Chinese dress:
https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-pdb/25978/1e9b4661-e63e-4ef6-bfaa-bb92566fe295/s1200

According to haircut a Manchurian warrior dress.

[Ryuk]

No, Tatar language represents a mixture of two Turkic dialects (with initial "j" and initial "y").
Those who have an initial "j" - seem to be of Bulgarian origin. Those who have initial "y" are descendants of Kipachak/Kuman/Nogai


You are one of the most equipped people in this forum,I admire you (for now), but this comment is not true.


. Before we proceed any further, we should consider the controversy related to the "flickering" pronunciation of the famous Turkic initial J-/y-, which becomes particularly unstable when it comes to the Kimak-Kypchak-Tatar subtaxon. [We should remind again that /J-/ herein transcribes a consonant approximately similar to the English .] As we have mentioned in the beginning, Proto-Kimak partly lost its original Proto-Kimak-Kyrgyz word-initial *J-, which began to mutate into y-, although this transition has never been conclusive throughout the Kimak languages. For instance, *J- survives in Karachay-Balkar; whereas in Kazan Tatar it was preserved before- i- (hence Kazan Tatar Jir "earth", Jil "wind"), but changed to y- before other vowels (hence Kazan Tatar yafraq "leaf", yul "road", yïlan "snake", yörek "heart"). On the other hand, *J- also survives in the dialects of North Crimean Tatar in all positions.
Hence, apparently the Old Russian zhenchug' "pearl" (first attested c. 1160) and Hungarian /JönJi/, etc., originally from Chinese, but most likely borrowed from Cuman-Polovtsian (the latter belong to the Kimak subtaxon) [though an earlier borrowing from Bulgaric cannot be completely excluded].
Besides that, Mahmud al-Kashgari claimed that there existed a y- > J- or ' [zero or an Arabic hamza] mutation both in Oghuz and Kypchak.
For example, the Turks [=Karakhanid Turks] call a traveler yalkin, whereas they [Oghuz and Qifchaq] call him 'alkin. The Turks call warm water yilig suw, whereas they say ilig with the 'alif. Likewise, the Turks call a pearl yinchu, whereas they call it Jinchu. The Turks call the long hair of a camel yigdu, whereas they call it Jugdu. [Diwanu l-Lugat al-Turk (c. 1073)]
The Uguz and Kifzhak say the words beginning with y- as J-: ul mani Jatti (he reached me) instead of yatti. At-turk say suvda yundum (I bathed in water), whereas they [Oghuz and Qifchaq] say Jundum. Amongst the Turks and the Turkman, there exists this constant rule. [Diwanu l-Lugat al-Turk (c. 1073)]
Despite this quote, al-Kashgari also confusingly cites a good dozen of Oghuz words beginning with the y-, as if, either what he had said earlier no longer applied to them, or the reader was supposed to make the y-to-J substitution for himself. Consequently, the reader is left to wonder whether it's a mistake or a dialectical or allophonic variation. Neither is it clear why /J-/ is mostly absent from the modern Oghuz languages, such as Standard Turkmen. However, at a closer look, we find out that /J-/ exists in many dialects of Turkmen, specifically, Karakalpak Turkmen, and as the /J-/ > /d'-/, /t'-/ mutation in Saryk, Yomud, Ersar dialects of Turkmen [see Sravnitelnaya gramatika tyurkskikh yazykov. Fonetika (1984) p. 261 ], which makes al-Kashgari claims more plausible.
The allophonic variations between J- and y- are also reported in East Bashkir [proficient speakers (2011)], and many other Kimak-Kypchak-Tatar languages.


Conclusions:
It seems that the J-/y- were interchangeably used both in the early Oghuz and Kimak-Kypchak-Tatar languages. Both the former and the latter still retain wobbly allophonic usage, which varies across different dialects. The real life pronunciation, which may differ from textbook or written fixation, as well as multiple allophonic variations add more plausibility to Mahmud al-Kashgari's account.


. The hypothesis of Proto-Kyrgyz and Proto-Oghuz interaction
We know from historical records that starting from 552 AD some of the Great-Steppe tribes were subdued by the Göktürks, who, essentially, were the speakers of Orkhon-Oghuz-Karakhanid. Presumably, the Göktürk language-dialect must have acquired a high sociolinguistic status in many Turkic-speaking societies of the time. We also know that Oghuz, that belongs to the Orkhon-Oghuz-Karakhanid grouping, and Kimak, that belong to the Great-Steppe grouping, share multiple similar phonological, lexical and grammatical innovations. Finally, we know that the Kyrgyz-Kazakh subgrouping (or Karluk-Kyrgyz-Kazakh subgrouping, as long as we assume that Karluk tribes were close to Kyrgyz tribes) is particularly close to Kimak.
Consequently, we can infer that somewhere around c. 500-800 AD there occurred a strong linguistic exchange between the early Oghuz and Kyrgyz dialects which could have resulted in the formation of Proto-Kimak. Moreover, the most simple and probable hypothesis which would explain the relatedness between Proto-Oghuz, Proto-Kimak, and Proto-Kyrgyz-Kazkah, would be that the area of Proto-Kimak was originally just a transitional geographic area between early Proto-Kyrgyz-(Karluk) and Proto-Oghuz, where these two languages overlapped and intermingled with each other.

The plausible hypothesis would be that, initially, Proto-Kyrgyz-Karluk (or Proto-Kyrgyz) was probably a conservative Turkic language located north of the Irtysh, between the Irtysh and Ob rivers, essentially in the area known as the Baraba and Kulunda Steppe, also possibly including some areas of the Altai Mountains.
The overlapping of Kyrgyz with the Oghuz area soon resulted in the formation of a new transitional dialect, which became known in history as Kimak. This Kimak area shared archaic linguistic features both with Kyrgyz-Karluk, on one hand, and innovative features with the early Oghuz, on the other.
Furthermore, Oghuz too was affected by Kimak and Kyrgyz dialect-languages; it absorbed some of their elements, becoming part of the Great Steppe Sprachbund, thus deviating from its Orkhon-Karakhanid parent stem.

On the other hand, the speakers of Kyrgyz-Karluk were largely unaffected by Göktürk dialect-languages because it was buffered in the Kimak area. Consequently, they may have formed a linguistic refugium near the Altai Mountains. Afterwards, according to scanty historical evidence, the early Kyrgyz and Karluk languages seem to have formed as a result of a later migration from the Altai Mountains towards the Tarbagatai Ridge, and the Zhetti-Su (the Seven Waters) region located between Lake Balkhash and the Tian Shan Mountains. This migration must have occurred most likely between 630-750 AD, thus creating the basis for the early Karluk and, probably, for the Kyrgyz (of Kyrgyzstan) languages. It was perhaps the political turmoil in the Western Turkic Kaganate, which allowed the Karluks to seize power in the Zhetti-Su area by about 766. In 840, there was likely to be a second wave of Kyrgyz migration to the Zhetti-Su (sources?) that ended political domination of the Karluks and apparently brought the name of "Kyrgyz" to the present-day Kyrgyzstan.

Conclusions:
As the Western Göktürk tribes speaking a language similar to the early Old Uyghur moved back from Mongolia into the upper reaches of the Irtysh river c. 550-700 AD, they came into contact with the local western Proto-Kyrgyz tribes. This intermingling must have resulted in the formation of three local dialectal areas:
(1) the Proto-Kyrgyz (possibly including Proto-Karluk) area that was almost unaffected by the Göktürk language and which ultimately led to the emergence of Karluk, Tian-Shan Kyrgyz, and finally, much later, after the 15th century, Kazakh and Karakalpak people;
(2) the northern Proto-Kimak area that was strongly affected by Oghuz or Western Göktürk, but retained many older Kyrgyz elements, such as -w- in bawïr "liver", and -w in taw "mountain", as opposed to the -G- and -G in the oncoming Orkhonic (Oghuz) language), to name just the most typical ones;
(3) the southern Proto-Oghuz area which acquired certain features from Kimak, but otherwise remained relatively unaffected, retaining many Orkhon-Karakhanid archaisms from an older period.
In other words, the formation of the three subtaxa — Proto-Karluk-Kyrgyz-Kazakh, Proto-Kimak-Kypchak-Tatar, and Proto-Oghuz-Seljuk — could have been the result of a back-migration of Western Göktürks or Orkhon Old Turkic or Old Uyghur or Oghuz speakers into the Kazakhstan Great Steppe from the Dzungarian Desert, eastern Tarim Basin or nearby regions, and their linguistic exchange with the local Kyrgyz or Karluk tribes

[Yaglakar]

The above post is complete and utter bs. Classifying languages based on j and y variations. The Turkish author of that unpublished article claims that old Turkic is y and Turkish is y therefore Turkish or rather Oghuz how he puts it, is decedent of Old Turkic. LOL. Maybe it is time to publish old Turkic dictionary in Turkey, because old Turkic or rather Tukue Türk tongue used both initials j and y.

Now let's cut to the core. Old Turkic, Orkhon Uighur and Yenisei Kirghiz (essentially dialects of the same language) are dead languages with no direct successors. The closest language would probably be Tuvan, but it is not a descendant of old Turkic but a descendant of the language of Chiks, who due to their proximity spoke a very similar language. Qipchaq "language" is a complete scientific construct, no language data, no written material, it is only assumed they spoke some sort of Turkic language which they probably did with many dialectical variations, but due to numerous pre-Mongol era, Mongolic loanwords in Russian, at least some of tribal elements of Qipchaqs or Kumans must have been Mongolic, which is not surprising given that Turkics and Mongolics have been mixing way before Ghengis Khan. And certainly medieval "Qipchaqs" did not constitute a single people, more like terms Scythian or Türks (medieval ones, not ancient) covering a lot of different people with different origins. Karakhanid tongue or Türki is a branch of Tukue Türk language, but not its direct descendant, one can call it old Karluk to make things easy, but there were more than dozen different groups, not only Karluks. Orkhon Uighur and old Uighur are two different languages, one is language of monuments in Mongolia, and the other the language of documents found in Kucha-Tufan-Qumul area. The old Uighurs who came to Xinjiang and Gansu switched to local Turkic languages in these respective areas, and Orkhon Uighur died out just like old Turkic and eventually Yenisei Kirghiz.

[Chelubey]

For instance, *J- survives in Karachay-Balkar; whereas in Kazan Tatar it was preserved before- i- (hence Kazan Tatar Jir "earth", Jil "wind"), but changed to y- before other vowels (hence Kazan Tatar yafraq "leaf", yul "road", yïlan "snake", yörek "heart").
There seems to be no strict system.
It seems the literary norm prescribes different pronunciation based on one of the Tatar dialects. At the same time, there extreme dialects exists based mainly on one pronunciation .
I cannot refer to opinion of expert, I read the opinion of a person who is well knowing various Tatar dialects, as well as other Turkic languages. His opinion is : a fusion of different dialects.
You can see this situation in this dictionary.
http://tatar.com.ru/dict/jj.php

jyalt : see the yalt

[axlredneck]

The only people who have pred. Scythian ancestry in Kazakhstan are the Russians. Kazakhs as an ethnic group are very Asian looking therefore Mongols and Kipchak Turks

Lol!

[kalach]

Almost all Turkic steppe peoples are genetically mixed with Mongols. There are historical sources saying that a 30,000 Mongol squad has settled in Turkey. Only Kumyks and Karachais have no connection with Mongols.
Interestingly that Mongolian haplogroups appeared among Turkic peoples living west of the Urals mainly not during the Golden Horde, but much later.

Turkey Turks have very little Mongolian ydna admixture. I guess Mongols killed women they raped here.

[Illyrius]

Central Asian peoples have always been of interest to me to study. What are Kazakhs confirmed to be? Caucasian ot mongoloid/East Asian? Do they look white?
What does a typical Kazakh look like?

Excuse me for my ignorance.

[porpozontokonto]

Turkey Turks have very little Mongolian ydna admixture. I guess Mongols killed women they raped here.

Probably because western Turco-Mongol khaganates had a Mongolic ruling class and a body of commoners that's largely formed by Turkic clans. The further you move away from the Mongolian heartland, the less likely you will see actual Mongols in their own hordes. They just can't seem to be bothered with migrating westwards so they would had to rely on Turkic clansmen. And Medieval Mongols weren't purely C-M130 either.

[kalach]

Probably because western Turco-Mongol khaganates had a Mongolic ruling class and a body of commoners that's largely formed by Turkic clans. The further you move away from the Mongolian heartland, the less likely you will see actual Mongols in their own hordes. They just can't seem to be bothered with migrating westwards so they would had to rely on Turkic clansmen. And Medieval Mongols weren't purely C-M130 either.

I find Turkish nationalists' admiration for Mongols cucked.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

Central Asian peoples have always been of interest to me to study. What are Kazakhs confirmed to be? Caucasian ot mongoloid/East Asian? Do they look white?
What does a typical Kazakh look like?

Excuse me for my ignorance.

Players that seem native or mixed in Kazakhstan's national men's soccer team (https://www.uefa.com/european-qualifiers/teams/65146--kazakhstan/squad/) (excluding players who were missing a photo):

https://i.imgur.com/9kUPYa3.jpg

Morph of all 12:

https://i.imgur.com/ChxZrcQ.jpg

Women from photos classified as being of Kazakhs in Kunstkamera (http://collection.kunstkamera.ru/entity/OBJECT?ethnos=3507391) (some persons might be included multiple times, and some might not actually be Kazakh):

https://i.imgur.com/8PEEUAC.jpg

My friend Laag is not a fan of Kazakhs or Uzbeks, but I think that at least phenotypically, they are far superior to kebab-type Turks.

[kalach]

Players that seem native or mixed in Kazakhstan's national men's soccer team (https://www.uefa.com/european-qualifiers/teams/65146--kazakhstan/squad/) (excluding players who were missing a photo):

https://i.imgur.com/9kUPYa3.jpg

Morph of all 12:

https://i.imgur.com/ChxZrcQ.jpg

Women from photos classified as being of Kazakhs in Kunstkamera (http://collection.kunstkamera.ru/entity/OBJECT?ethnos=3507391) (some persons might be included multiple times, and some might not actually be Kazakh):

https://i.imgur.com/8PEEUAC.jpg

My friend Laag is not a fan of Kazakhs or Uzbeks, but I think that at least phenotypically, they are far superior to kebab-type Turks.

Again your mongol loving attitude. The best Mongols for me Native Americans lol.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

I found a description of look of Kypchaks and Uigurs in the 15th (!) century in Chinese sources.
It found in comments to the law governing marriage unions (including with foreigners)
Ming Dynasty Laws:
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokumenty/China/XIV/1360-1380/Zakony_Min_2/frametext5.htm
Comments:
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokumenty/China/XIV/1360-1380/Zakony_Min_2/primtext5.phtml
google translate:

123 . Uighurs and Kipchaks are the most ugly among the Samuzhen ... Uigurs have curly hair and a big nose, Kipchaks have yellow hair and blue eyes. Their appearance is ugly and different [from ours], so ... it happens that the Chinese do not want to marry them.
Chinese racists!!!

Also from the comments: "120. Сэмужэнь - букв. «люди с цветными глазами» - в период Юань общее название для представителей западных, немонгольских народностей, которыми чаще всего были выходцы из Центральной и Средней Азии."

Translation: "120. Semuzhen - letters. "People with colored eyes" - during the Yuan period, the common name for representatives of Western, non-Mongolian peoples, who most often came from Central Asia."

However according to Wikipedia, the name is not actually derived from "colored eyes" but from "assorted categories" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semu):


Semu (Chinese: 色目; pinyin: sèmù) is the name of a caste established by the Yuan dynasty. The Semu categories refers to people who come from Central and West Asia, it is told that there are 31 categories among them. They had come to serve the Yuan dynasty by enfranchising under the dominant Mongol caste. The Semu were not a self-defined and homogeneous ethnic group per se, but one of the four castes of the Yuan dynasty: the Mongols, Semu (or Semuren), the "Han" (Hanren in Chinese, or all subjects of the former Jin dynasty, Dali Kingdom and Koreans) and the Southerners (Nanren in Chinese, or all subjects of the former Southern Song dynasty; sometimes called Manzi). Among the Semu were Buddhist Turpan Uyghurs, Tanguts and Tibetans; Nestorian Christian tribes like the Ongud; Alans; Muslim Central Asian Persian and Turkic peoples including the Khwarazmians and Karakhanids; West Asian Arab, Jewish and other minor groups who are from even further west.

[...]

Contrary to popular belief among both non-Chinese and Chinese, the term "Semu" (interpreted literally as "color-eye") did not imply that caste members had "colored eyes" and it was not a physical description of the people it labelled. It in fact meant "assorted categories" (各色名目, gè sè míng mù), emphasizing the ethnic diversity of Semu people.[1]

[Leto]

Aleksandr Marochkin is a Kazakhstan Russian, not an ethnic Kazakh. Looks part Asian but I guess that's okay for Siberian/Ural Russians (Northern Kazakhstan used to be an extension of Siberia before the Soviet nation-building)
https://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players/3/2020/324x324/250112789.jpg
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/aleksandr-marochkin-of-kazakhstan-during-the-uefa-euro-2020-qualifier-picture-id1148746282
Thin Nordic features and light pigmentation plus Asian chinky eyes.

[Leto]

Regarding the question, the Kazakhs are not the same as the Mongols autosomally. Khalkha Mongols are 80-90% East Eurasian while Kazakhs are 55-65%. Sure they have a lot of shared ancestry but then again, the Turkic homeland was located somewhere in modern Mongolia, at least partially. Do not be confused by Y DNA data, the Kyrgyz are 50-60% R1a-Z93 for example.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

For example, Kazakh language is specific and distinct because of its harsh guttural K sound. Such sounds is present only in Eastern Eurasian languages which correlate with migration of haplogroup Q ( in Ket, Chukchi, Eskimo languages). Sure its not only this one sound. The general sound of these languages is similar also.

Are you talking about /q/ (voiceless uvular stop)?

According to eurasianphonology.info (http://eurasianphonology.info), /q/ is also included in these languages:

Indo-Iranian: Lemi Chin, Khowar, Shughni, Rushani, Khufi, Sarikoli, Yazghulami, Kalam (Swat-Dir) Kohistani, Wotapuri-Katarqalai, Domari, Southern Pashai, Kalkoti, Kumzari, Dari, Sorani
Caucasian: Adyghe, Dargwa, Hinuq
Semitic: Kuwaiti Arabic, Barwar Neo-Aramaic, Betanure Neo-Aramaic, Arbel Neo-Aramaic, Amədya Neo-Aramaic, Alqosh Neo-Aramaic
Isolate: Burushaki

Output of `curl http://eurasianphonology.info/static/phono_dbase.json|jq -r '.[]|.name+": "+(.cons|join(" "))'|grep ' q '`:

Lemi Chin: b p pʰ d t tʰ k kʰ q qχ ʔ m n ŋ v f s sʰ h l r j
Khowar: p b pʰ t̪ d̪ t̪ʰ ʈ ɖ ʈʰ k g kʰ q m n̪ ts dz tsʰ ʈʂ ɖʐ ʈʂʰ tɕ dʑ tɕʰ f s z ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x ɣ h ɾ ʋ j ɫ l
Shughni: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ r
Rushani: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ r
Khufi: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ r
Sarikoli: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n s z ʃ ʒ f v θ ð x ɣ χ ʁ w j r
Yazghulami: p b t d c ɟ k g kʷ gʷ q qʷ ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ χʷ ʁʷ xʷ r
Kalam (Swat-Dir) Kohistani: p t ʈ k q pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ b d ɖ g ts ʈʂ tʃ tsʰ ʈʂʰ tʃʰ dʒ f s ʂ ʃ x h z ɣ m n ɳ ŋ ɬ l r w j
Wotapuri-Katarqalai: p t ʈ k q pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ b d ɖ g ts ʈʂ tsʰ ʈʂʰ dz dʒ f s ʂ x h z m n ɳ r ɽ ɭ l w j
Adyghe: m n r w j b p pʼ pʼʷ d t tʼ tʼʷ ɡʷ k kʷ kʼ kʼʷ q qʷ ʔʼ ʔʼʷ f z s dz ts tsʼ ʒ ʃ tʃ tʃʼ ʑ ɕ dʑ tɕ tɕʼ ẑ ẑʷ ŝ ŝʷ ŝʼ ŝʼʷ dẑʷ tŝʷ ɮ ɬ ɬʼ ɣ x xʷ ʁ ʁʷ χ χʷ h
Mongghul (Huzhu Monguor): pʰ tʰ kʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ f s ʃ ʂ x m n ŋ l r w j
Eastern Yugur: pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ts tʃ s ʃ χ h β ɣ ʁ m n ŋ l r j l̥ n̥ j̊
Dongxiang: pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ s ʃ ʂ x h ʐ ʁ m n ŋ l r w j
Mangghuer (Minhe Monguor): pʰ tʰ kʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ f s ʃ ʂ x m n ŋ l r w j
Baoan (Ñantoq): pʰ tʰ kʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ts tʃ f s ʂ ç χ h ʒ m n ŋ l r w j
Caodeng rGyalrong: p t c k q pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ b d ɟ ɡ ⁿb ⁿd ⁿɟ ⁿɡ ⁿɢ ts ʈʂ tʃ tsʰ ʈʂʰ tʃʰ dz ɖʐ dʒ ⁿdz ⁿɖʐ ⁿdʒ m n ɲ ŋ f s ʂ ʃ x χ v z ʒ ɣ ʁ r l̥ l w j ʔ
Khalong Tibetan: p t ts ʈʂ c tʃ k q ⁿpʰ ⁿtʰ ⁿtsʰ ⁿcʰ ⁿtʃʰ ⁿkʰ pʰ tʰ tsʰ ʈʂʰ cʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ b d ɖʐ ɟ dʒ ɡ ⁿb ⁿd ⁿdz ⁿɖʐ ⁿɟ ⁿdʒ ⁿɡ f s ʂ ʃ x χ m n ɲ ŋ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ ŋ̊ r l l̥ j
Yongning Na (Mosuo): pʰ p b tʰ t d kʰ k ɡ qʰ q ɢ m n ɲ f s z ɕ ʑ ʂ ʐ ɣ h tsʰ ts dz tɕʰ tɕ dʑ ʈʂʰ ʈʂ ɖʐ l̥ w j l
Zhongu Tibetan: p ʰp pʰ ⁿpʰ b ⁿb m̥ m w t ʰt tʰ ⁿtʰ d ⁿd s z n̥ n l̥ l r̥ r ts ʰts tsʰ ⁿtsʰ dz ⁿdz ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ⁿʈʂʰ ɖʐ ⁿɖʐ ʂ ʐ tʃ ʰtʃ tʃʰ ⁿtʃʰ dʒ ⁿdʒ ʃ ʒ ɲ̊ ɲ k ʰk kʰ ⁿkʰ g ⁿg ŋ̊ ŋ ɣ q qʰ χ ʁ
gSerpa: p pʰ b ⁿb m v t tʰ d ⁿd n s z r l l̥ ts tsʰ ⁿdz ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ ⁿɖʐ ʂ c cʰ ɟ ⁿɟ j tʃ tʃʰ dʒ ⁿdʒ ɲ ʃ ʒ k kʰ g ⁿg ŋ x ɣ q qʰ χ ʁ h
Modern Aramaic (Northeastern): p b t d tʃ dʒ k g q ʕ ʔ f v x ɣ ħ s z ʃ ʒ m n l r w j h pˤ bˤ tˤ dˤ sˤ zˤ mˤ tʃˤ lˤ rˤ
Kangjia: pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ts tʃ f s ʃ χ h v z ɣ ʁ m n ŋ l r j
Japhug: p t c k q pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ b d ɟ ɡ ⁿb ⁿd ⁿɟ ⁿɡ ⁿɢ ts tɕ ʈʂ tsʰ tɕʰ ʈʂʰ dz dʑ ɖʐ ⁿdz ⁿdʑ ⁿɖʐ m n ɲ ŋ s ɕ ʂ x χ z ʑ ɣ ʁ w l r j l̥ ʔ
Hmong Njua (Green Hmong): p t c k q ʔ pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ ⁿp ⁿt ⁿc ⁿk ⁿq ⁿpʰ ⁿtʰ ⁿcʰ ⁿkʰ ⁿqʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ⁿts ⁿtʃ ⁿʈʂ ⁿtsʰ ⁿtʃʰ ⁿʈʂʰ m n ɲ ŋ v ʒ j f s ʃ ç h sʰ l ɬ
Shixing: p pʰ b ⁿb t̪ t̪ʰ d̪ ⁿd̪ k kʰ q qʰ ⁿɢ ʔ g ⁿg m m̥ n̪ n̥̪ ɲ ŋ t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʰ d̪z̪ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ tɕ tɕʰ ⁿd̪z̪ ⁿɖʐ dʑ ⁿdʑ s̪ z̪ ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x χ ʁ h ɦ ɬ̪ w r̪ j l̪
Lahu (Black): p t tʃ k q pʰ tʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ b d dʒ ɡ m n ŋ f ʃ x v l j ɣ
Sui: p t ts tɕ k q ʔ pʰ tʰ tsʰ tɕʰ kʰ qʰ ⁿb ⁿd ɡ ʼɡ ɢ ʼb ʼd m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ ŋ̊ ʼm ʼn ʼɲ ʼŋ m n ɲ ŋ f s ɕ x h v l z j ɣ ʁ ʼw ʼj ʼɣ
Malto: p b m w t̪ d̪ n̪ θ̪ s r l ʈ ɖ ɽ c ɟ ɲ j k g ŋ q ɣ h
Northern Qiang (Yadu): p t̪ k q pʰ t̪ʰ kʰ qʰ b d̪ g ts ʈʂ tɕ tsʰ ʈʂʰ tɕʰ dz ɖʐ dʑ ɸ s ʂ ɕ x χ h z ʐ ʁ ɦ m n̪ ɲ ŋ ɬ l w j
Balti (Kharkoo): p pʰ b t tʰ d k kʰ g ts tsʰ tʃ tʃʰ dʒ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ ʈ ʈʰ ɖ q s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h l̥ l m n ŋ w j
Purki: p pʰ b t̪ t̪ʰ d̪ k kʰ g q χ ɢ ts tsʰ tʃ tʃʰ dʒ s z ʃ ʒ x h m n ɲ ŋ l r w j
Tsez (Asax): p b t̪ d̪ k g q qˤ ʡ pʼ t̪ʼ kʼ qʼ qˤʼ ts tʃ tsʼ tʃʼ s z ʃ ʒ χ ʁ ʁˤ ʜ h m n̪ r̪ t̪ɬ t̪ɬʼ ɬ l w j
Northern Qiang (Hongyan): p t̪ k q pʰ t̪ʰ kʰ qʰ b d̪ g ts tʂ tɕ tsʰ tʂʰ tɕʰ dz dʐ dʑ s ʂ ɕ x χ h z ʐ ʑ ʁ ɦ m n̪ ɲ ŋ l ɬ w j
Lizu: p pʰ b t tʰ d k kʰ g q qʰ ʔ ts tsʰ dz tʃ tʃʰ dʒ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ m n ɲ ŋ s z ʃ ʒ ɕ ʑ x ɣ h w ɹ j l ɬ ⁿpʰ ⁿb ⁿtʰ ⁿd ⁿtsʰ ⁿdz ⁿtʃʰ ⁿdʒ ⁿtɕʰ ⁿdʑ ŋ̩
Puxi: p t̪ k q pʰ t̪ʰ kʰ qʰ b d̪ g t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʰ d̪z̪ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ f s ʂ ɕ χ z ʐ ʁ m n̪ ɲ ŋ l m̩ n̪̩ ŋ̩
Dari: p b t d k g q m n f s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h tʃ dʒ ɾ w j l
Hinuq: p p’ b t̪ t̪’ d̪ k k’ g q q’ ʡ ʔ kʷ k’ʷ gʷ qʷ q’ʷ f s z ɬ ʃ ʒ χ ʁ ħ h χʷ ʁʷ ts ts’ tɬ tɬ’ tʃ tʃ’ m n̪ r̪ l v j
Kumzari: p b t d tˤ dˤ k g q ʔ tʃ dʒ m n f s sˤ zˤ ʃ χ ʁ ħ ɦ ɻ j w l
Alqosh Neo-Aramaic: p t tʃ k q ʔ b d dʒ g tˤ tʃˤ f θ s ʃ x ħ h v ð z ɣ sˤ ðˤ zˤ m n l r rˤ w j ʕ
Amədya Neo-Aramaic: pʰ b pˤ bˤ tʰ d tˤ dˤ kʰ g q ʔ f v θ ðˤ s z sˤ zˤ ʃ ʒ x ɣ ħ h m mˤ n r ɻˤ j w ʕ l tʃ tʃˤ dʒʰ
Arbel Neo-Aramaic: b pʰ f w m tʰ d n r l ʃ ʒ s z tˤ sˤ dˤ zˤ tʃʰ dʒ j kʰ g x ɣ q ʔ h ʕ ħ
Betanure Neo-Aramaic: b d dˤ g p pˤ t tˤ k q ʔ dʒ tʃ tʃˤ ð z ʒ ʁ ʕ θ s sˤ ʃ x ħ h m mˤ n l lˤ r rˤ w j
Barwar Neo-Aramaic: pʰ pˤ b tʰ tˤ d tʃˤ kʰ g q ʔ θ s ð z sˤ ʃ x ɣ ħ h m mˤ n l lˤ w j tʃʰ rˤ r
Kalkoti: p t ʈ k q pʰ tʰ kʰ b d ɖ g m n ts ʈʂ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ s ʂ ɕ x z ɣ r ʋ j l
Darra-i-Nur Pashai (Southeast Pashai): p t ʈ k q b d ɖ g tʃ dʒ s ʂ ʃ z f x h ɣ r ɽ ɬ l m n ɳ ŋ w j
Mehweb: b d g gʷ p t k kʷ q qʷ ʔ ʔʷ pʼ tʼ kʼ kʼʷ qʼ qʼʷ s ʃ ɣ ʁ ʁʷ z ʒ x χ χʷ ħ ħʷ h hʷ ts tʃ tsʼ tʃʼ m w n l r j
Domari (Aleppo): m n p b t d k g q ʔ f s z ʃ x ɣ ħ ʕ h tˤ dˤ zˤ tʃ dʒ ʋ j r l
Xong: p pʰ ⁿp ⁿpʰ pʲ pʲʰ ⁿpʲʰ t tʰ ⁿt ⁿtʰ tʲ tʲʰ ⁿtʲ ⁿtʲʰ ts tsʰ ⁿts ⁿtsʰ tɕ tɕʰ ⁿtɕ ⁿtɕʰ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ⁿʈʂ ⁿʈʂʰ k kʰ ⁿk ⁿkʰ kʲ kʲʰ ⁿkʲ ⁿkʲʰ q qʰ ⁿq ⁿqʰ qʷ qʷʰ ⁿqʷ ⁿqʷʰ m mʰ mʲ f ʋ n nʰ l lʰ nʲ lʲ lʲʰ s ɕ j ɳ ʂ ʐ ŋ ŋʷ h hʷ m̩
Standard Arabic (Kuwait): b tʰ d kʰ q ʔ m n f θ ð s z ʃ x ɣ ħ h dʒ r j w l tˤ dˤ sˤ ðˤ lˤ ʔ̙
Iron Ossetic: b pʰ p’ d̪ t̪ʰ t̪’ g gʷ kʰ kʷ k’ k’ʷ q qʷ ʔ f v s z ʒ ʃ ʁ ʁʷ χ χʷ h dz ts ts’ dʒ tʃ tʃ’ m n l r w j
Digor Ossetic: b pʰ p’ d̪ t̪ʰ t̪’ g gʷ kʰ kʷ k’ k’ʷ q qʷ ʔ f v s z ʁ ʁʷ χ χʷ h dz ts ts’ m n l r w j
Sakha (Standard): p b m t̺ s̻ d̺ n̺ r ɫ̺ ɲ cç ɟʝ j j̃ k g ŋ q ʁ ħ
Dolgan: m b p n d t s ɫ r ɲ ɟ c dʒ tʃ j ŋ g ɢ q h ɬ r̥
Dargwa (Icari): b p pː p’ d̪ t̪ t̪ː t̪’ z̪ s̪ s̪ː t̪s̪ t̪s̪ː t̪s̪’ ʒ ʃː tʃ tʃː tʃ’ k kː k’ ɣ x xː q qː q’ ʁ χ χː kʷ kːʷ k’ʷ ɣʷ xʷ xːʷ qʷ qːʷ q’ʷ ʁʷ χʷ χːʷ ʡ’ ħ ʔ h w j m n l r
Sumi (Sema): p pʰ b mʰ m f v t tʰ d nʰ n ɹ lʰ l tʃ tʃʰ ʃ ʒ k kʰ g x ɣ ŋ q qʰ h
Khalaj: p b t̪ d̪ k g q ɢ x ɣ χ ʁ tʃ s ʃ z n j l r ħ
Bashkir: pʰ b m w θ ð tʰ d s l n r ʃ j kʰ g x ŋ q ʁ h
Tatar (Standard): p b t̪ d̪ s̪ z̪ m n̪ β l r ɕ ʃ ʒ ʑ j k g ŋ q χ ʁ ʔ h v f ts tɕ ɕː
Uyghur (Xinjiang): p b m w n̪ t̪ d̪ s z l r tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ j k g ŋ q x ʁ ʔ h f v ts ɕː
Kyrgyz (Standard): p b f v m t̪ d̪ t̪s̪ s̪ z̪ tʃ dʒ ʃ n ɫ r j q χ ɢ ɴ
Northern Altai (Kumandy): p pː m t tː s̺ ɕ r̺ l̺ n cçː c ɲ q qː ɣ ŋ ʔ
Tuvan (Standard): b̥ β g ɣ d̪̥ t̪ʰ ʒ ʃ s z q l m n̪ ŋ pʰ ɾ χ h tʃ j ts p b f v t̪ d̪
Kumyk: b p v f m d̪ t̪ z s dʒ tʃ ʒ ʃ n l r k g q ʁ χ ɴ h
Kazakh: b p m w v f d t z s ts tʃ n l ʒ ʃ ɕ ɣ r k g q ʁ χ ɴ h
Karakalpak: b p w m v f d t z s ts n l ʒ ʃ tʃ dʒ r ɣ k g q ʁ χ ɴ h
Nogai: b p w v m d t ʒ ʃ z s n l r g k ɣ q ʁ χ ɴ
Uzbek: pʰ b f w m tʰ d s z n l r kʰ g ʃ ʒ tʃ dʒ ɣ q ʁ χ ŋ h
Balkar: b p d t w v f m z s ʒ ʃ dʒ tʃ n l r g k ɣ q ʁ χ ɴ
Atayal: p t k q ʔ β ʒ ɣ s x ħ ts r l m n j w
Sorani Kurdish: p b m w f v t̪ d̪ s̪ z̪ n̪ l̪ ɫ̪ ɾ̪ r̪ sˤ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ j k g x ɣ ŋ q ħ ʕ ʔ h
Lak (Kumux): p pʼ pː b m w t̪ t̪ʼ t̪ː d̪ n̪ l̪ r̪ t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʼ t̪s̪ː s̪ s̪ː z̪ tʃ tʃː tʃʼ ʃ ʃː ʒ j k kʼ kː ɣ x xː q qʼ qː χ χː ʁ ʜ h ʔ tʃʷ tʃːʷ tʃʼʷ ʃʷ ʃːʷ ʒʷ kʷ kʼʷ kːʷ ɣʷ xʷ xːʷ qʷ qʼʷ qːʷ χʷ χːʷ
Burushaski (Hunza): p pʰ b f m w t tʰ d n l ts tsʰ z s r ʈ ʈʰ ɖ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ ɕ j ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ ʂ ʐʲ k kʰ g x ŋ q qʰ ɢ h
Kolyma Yukaghir: p t d k g q tɕ dʑ ʃ ʒ ʁ m n ɲ ŋ l ʎ r w j
Tundra Yukaghir: p b t d tʃ dʒ k g q ʁ s m n ɲ ŋ r l j w ʎ
Taz Selkup: p t tɕ k q s ɕ m n nʲ r l lʲ w j ŋ
Tajik (Bukhara): p b m f v t̪ d̪ s z n ɾ l ɕ tɕ ʑ dʑ j k g q χ ʁ h
Nivkh (West Sakhalin): pʰ p ɸ β m w tʰ t r̥ r n l cç cçʰ s z ɲ j k kʰ x ɣ ŋ q qʰ χ ʁ h
Domari (Palestinian): p b m f v w t̪ d̪ n̪ s̪ z̪ l̪ r̪ t̪ˤ d̪ˤ s̪ˤ z̪ˤ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ j k g x ɫ ɣ q χ ħ ʕ h ʔ
Eastern Khanty (Vakh): p v m t s n l ʈʂ ɳ ɭ r c j ɲ ʎ q ʁ ŋ
Naukan Yupik: p m w v t s l̥ l n r j k x ɣ ŋ q χ ʁ
Itelmen: p pʼ t̺ t̺ʼ k kʼ q q̺ t̺ɕ̺ t̺ɕ̺ʼ ɸ β s̺ z̺ j x ɣ χ l lʲ l̥ʲ m n nʲ ŋ r ʔ
Lezgian (Güne): b p pʰ pʼ f m w d̪ t̪ʰ t̪ t̪ʼ n̪ l̪ r̪ t̪ʰʷ t̪ʷ t̪ʼʷ t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʼ t̪s̪ʰ t̪s̪ʰʷ t̪s̪ʷ t̪s̪ʼʷ s̪ z̪ s̪ʷ z̪ʷ j tʃ tʃʰ tʃʼ ʃ ʒ g k kʰ kʼ gʷ kʷ kʰʷ kʼʷ x q qʰ qʼ qʼʷ qʰʷ qʷ χ χʷ ʁ ʁʷ h ʔ pʲ pʰʲ pʼʲ fʲ t̪ʰʲ t̪ʲ t̪ʼʲ t̪ʰʷʲ t̪ʷʲ t̪ʼʷʲ t̪s̪ʲ t̪s̪ʼʲ t̪s̪ʰʲ t̪s̪ʰʷʲ t̪s̪ʷʲ t̪s̪ʼʷʲ s̪ʲ s̪ʷʲ kʲ kʰʲ kʼʲ kʷʲ kʰʷʲ kʼʷʲ xʲ qʲ qʰʲ qʼʲ qʼʷʲ qʰʷʲ qʷʲ χʲ χʷʲ ɢ
Ishkashimi: p b t ʈ d ɖ k g q ts dz tʃ ʈʂ dʒ f v s z ʃ ʂ ʒ ʐ x ɣ w j m n l r h ɭ
Wakhi: p b w m f v t d ts dz tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ l̥ r θ ð s z ʈ ɖ ʈʂ ɖʐ ʂ ʐ ɭ̥ n j k g x ɣ q χ ʁ ç ɽ̊
Kurmanji Kurdish: b dʒ tʃʰ tʃˤ d f g h ħ ʒ kʰ kˤ l m n pʰ q ɾ r s ʃ tʰ tˤ v w χ ʁ j z ʢ
Paiwan (Kulalao): p b t d c ɟ ts ɖ k g q ʔ v m w r n ɺ j ŋ ʎ
Yaghnobi: p b β̞ m f v t d tʃ dʒ s z ʃʲ ʒʲ n l r k g j q χ χʷ ʁ ħ ʕ h
Kabardian: p b p’ t d t’ ts dz ts’ kʷ gʷ k’ʷ q qʷ q’ q’ʷ ʔ ʔʷ f v f’ s z ɬ ɮ ɬ’ ɕ ʑ ɕ’ ʃ ʒ ç ʝ xʷ c’ c ɟ χ ʁ χʷ ʁʷ ʕ h m n r j w

[Ymyyakhtakh]

Aleksandr Marochkin is a Kazakhstan Russian, not an ethnic Kazakh. Looks part Asian but I guess that's okay for Siberian/Ural Russians (Northern Kazakhstan used to be an extension of Siberia before the Soviet nation-building)
https://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players/3/2020/324x324/250112789.jpg
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/aleksandr-marochkin-of-kazakhstan-during-the-uefa-euro-2020-qualifier-picture-id1148746282
Thin Nordic features and light pigmentation plus Asian chinky eyes.

I didn't exclude him because I thought he might be a Russian-Kazakh mix. How do you know he's not mixed?

Turanids also have "thin Nordic features" like a fairly long and narrow face and nose. Humanphenotypes.net says that Turanids have an "oval head and high mid face".

Here the Kazakh morph has a longer mid-face and shorter forehead, so its eyes are positioned higher on the y-axis:

https://i.imgur.com/akOaSjZ.gif

In the GIF file above, if you imagine drawing a triangle between the center point of each eye and the center point of the mouth, the shape of the triangle is more elongated in the Kazakh morph, because its eyes are more close-set and positioned higher.

In the case of Aleksandr Marochkin, the shape of the eyes-mouth-triangle is extremely elongated:

https://i.imgur.com/6LrXthc.jpg

This player in Kazakhstan's national team (Islambek Kuat) also has light-colored hair and eyes, even though his name is obviously not Russian. His eyes are less chinky, but he still has a very high midface-to-forehead ratio:

http://kff.kz/uploads/images/2019/03/22/5c94e6d770c58_avatar.jpg

[Leto]

Islambek may be mixed with something too. Even though Kazakhstan is gradually becoming more homogenous, it's still a multiethnic country and besides Russians and Kazakhs there are other smaller ethnic minorities. Anyone who is interested can google it.

I'm not interested in the pseudo-scientific taxonomy stuff, people who in 2020 disregard population genetics in favor of "taxonomy" shouldn't bother arguing with me.

[Illyrius]

Are Albanians indeed turkified Caucasoids

[Alenka]

Players that seem native or mixed in Kazakhstan's national men's soccer team (https://www.uefa.com/european-qualifiers/teams/65146--kazakhstan/squad/) (excluding players who were missing a photo):

https://i.imgur.com/9kUPYa3.jpg

Baktiyor Zainutdinov is ethnic Uzbek.

https://i.imgur.com/77PERkq.jpg

[Leto]

Baktiyor Zainutdinov is ethnic Uzbek.

How do you know and why do you care? :confused:

[Aldaris]

Baktiyor Zainutdinov is ethnic Uzbek.

https://i.imgur.com/77PERkq.jpg

Most of them look just like my Chinese bros from Sichuan. Beware of those guys, hun, they look deceptively young, but they're kinda smart.

[Alenka]

How do you know
Because Kazakhs give the name Baktiyar, while Bakhtiyor is the Uzbek version.


and why do you care? :confused:
Why do you care why I care?
:confused:
First of all, I wasn't even replying to you. Second of all, it's just info, and there's nothing wrong with informing people. This is an anthroforum. What I just wrote is not any more irrelevant than the stuff you write on the forum. Most people may not care about what that guy's ethnicty is, but neither would they care about what a Kazakh football team morph looks like, which is what Ymyyakhtakh posted in the thread, but you didn't ask him why he cares. Nor do most people care about genetics, but you have like thousands of posts on where someone plots or how much Siberian someone scores on GEDmatch. So rather than asking me "why do you care?" maybe you should know your place and ask yourself first.

[mutabor]

Are you talking about /q/ (voiceless uvular stop)?

According to eurasianphonology.info (http://eurasianphonology.info), /q/ is also included in these languages:

Indo-Iranian: Lemi Chin, Khowar, Shughni, Rushani, Khufi, Sarikoli, Yazghulami, Kalam (Swat-Dir) Kohistani, Wotapuri-Katarqalai, Domari, Southern Pashai, Kalkoti, Kumzari, Dari, Sorani
Caucasian: Adyghe, Dargwa, Hinuq
Semitic: Kuwaiti Arabic, Barwar Neo-Aramaic, Betanure Neo-Aramaic, Arbel Neo-Aramaic, Amədya Neo-Aramaic, Alqosh Neo-Aramaic
Isolate: Burushaki

Output of `curl http://eurasianphonology.info/static/phono_dbase.json|jq -r '.[]|.name+": "+(.cons|join(" "))'|grep ' q '`:

Lemi Chin: b p pʰ d t tʰ k kʰ q qχ ʔ m n ŋ v f s sʰ h l r j
Khowar: p b pʰ t̪ d̪ t̪ʰ ʈ ɖ ʈʰ k g kʰ q m n̪ ts dz tsʰ ʈʂ ɖʐ ʈʂʰ tɕ dʑ tɕʰ f s z ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x ɣ h ɾ ʋ j ɫ l
Shughni: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ r
Rushani: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ r
Khufi: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ r
Sarikoli: p b t d k g q ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n s z ʃ ʒ f v θ ð x ɣ χ ʁ w j r
Yazghulami: p b t d c ɟ k g kʷ gʷ q qʷ ts dz tʃ dʒ l m n w f v s z θ ð j x ɣ χ ʁ ʃ ʒ χʷ ʁʷ xʷ r
Kalam (Swat-Dir) Kohistani: p t ʈ k q pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ b d ɖ g ts ʈʂ tʃ tsʰ ʈʂʰ tʃʰ dʒ f s ʂ ʃ x h z ɣ m n ɳ ŋ ɬ l r w j
Wotapuri-Katarqalai: p t ʈ k q pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ b d ɖ g ts ʈʂ tsʰ ʈʂʰ dz dʒ f s ʂ x h z m n ɳ r ɽ ɭ l w j
Adyghe: m n r w j b p pʼ pʼʷ d t tʼ tʼʷ ɡʷ k kʷ kʼ kʼʷ q qʷ ʔʼ ʔʼʷ f z s dz ts tsʼ ʒ ʃ tʃ tʃʼ ʑ ɕ dʑ tɕ tɕʼ ẑ ẑʷ ŝ ŝʷ ŝʼ ŝʼʷ dẑʷ tŝʷ ɮ ɬ ɬʼ ɣ x xʷ ʁ ʁʷ χ χʷ h
Mongghul (Huzhu Monguor): pʰ tʰ kʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ f s ʃ ʂ x m n ŋ l r w j
Eastern Yugur: pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ts tʃ s ʃ χ h β ɣ ʁ m n ŋ l r j l̥ n̥ j̊
Dongxiang: pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ s ʃ ʂ x h ʐ ʁ m n ŋ l r w j
Mangghuer (Minhe Monguor): pʰ tʰ kʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ f s ʃ ʂ x m n ŋ l r w j
Baoan (Ñantoq): pʰ tʰ kʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ts tʃ f s ʂ ç χ h ʒ m n ŋ l r w j
Caodeng rGyalrong: p t c k q pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ b d ɟ ɡ ⁿb ⁿd ⁿɟ ⁿɡ ⁿɢ ts ʈʂ tʃ tsʰ ʈʂʰ tʃʰ dz ɖʐ dʒ ⁿdz ⁿɖʐ ⁿdʒ m n ɲ ŋ f s ʂ ʃ x χ v z ʒ ɣ ʁ r l̥ l w j ʔ
Khalong Tibetan: p t ts ʈʂ c tʃ k q ⁿpʰ ⁿtʰ ⁿtsʰ ⁿcʰ ⁿtʃʰ ⁿkʰ pʰ tʰ tsʰ ʈʂʰ cʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ b d ɖʐ ɟ dʒ ɡ ⁿb ⁿd ⁿdz ⁿɖʐ ⁿɟ ⁿdʒ ⁿɡ f s ʂ ʃ x χ m n ɲ ŋ m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ ŋ̊ r l l̥ j
Yongning Na (Mosuo): pʰ p b tʰ t d kʰ k ɡ qʰ q ɢ m n ɲ f s z ɕ ʑ ʂ ʐ ɣ h tsʰ ts dz tɕʰ tɕ dʑ ʈʂʰ ʈʂ ɖʐ l̥ w j l
Zhongu Tibetan: p ʰp pʰ ⁿpʰ b ⁿb m̥ m w t ʰt tʰ ⁿtʰ d ⁿd s z n̥ n l̥ l r̥ r ts ʰts tsʰ ⁿtsʰ dz ⁿdz ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ⁿʈʂʰ ɖʐ ⁿɖʐ ʂ ʐ tʃ ʰtʃ tʃʰ ⁿtʃʰ dʒ ⁿdʒ ʃ ʒ ɲ̊ ɲ k ʰk kʰ ⁿkʰ g ⁿg ŋ̊ ŋ ɣ q qʰ χ ʁ
gSerpa: p pʰ b ⁿb m v t tʰ d ⁿd n s z r l l̥ ts tsʰ ⁿdz ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ ⁿɖʐ ʂ c cʰ ɟ ⁿɟ j tʃ tʃʰ dʒ ⁿdʒ ɲ ʃ ʒ k kʰ g ⁿg ŋ x ɣ q qʰ χ ʁ h
Modern Aramaic (Northeastern): p b t d tʃ dʒ k g q ʕ ʔ f v x ɣ ħ s z ʃ ʒ m n l r w j h pˤ bˤ tˤ dˤ sˤ zˤ mˤ tʃˤ lˤ rˤ
Kangjia: pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ p t k q tsʰ tʃʰ ts tʃ f s ʃ χ h v z ɣ ʁ m n ŋ l r j
Japhug: p t c k q pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ b d ɟ ɡ ⁿb ⁿd ⁿɟ ⁿɡ ⁿɢ ts tɕ ʈʂ tsʰ tɕʰ ʈʂʰ dz dʑ ɖʐ ⁿdz ⁿdʑ ⁿɖʐ m n ɲ ŋ s ɕ ʂ x χ z ʑ ɣ ʁ w l r j l̥ ʔ
Hmong Njua (Green Hmong): p t c k q ʔ pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ ⁿp ⁿt ⁿc ⁿk ⁿq ⁿpʰ ⁿtʰ ⁿcʰ ⁿkʰ ⁿqʰ ts tʃ ʈʂ tsʰ tʃʰ ʈʂʰ ⁿts ⁿtʃ ⁿʈʂ ⁿtsʰ ⁿtʃʰ ⁿʈʂʰ m n ɲ ŋ v ʒ j f s ʃ ç h sʰ l ɬ
Shixing: p pʰ b ⁿb t̪ t̪ʰ d̪ ⁿd̪ k kʰ q qʰ ⁿɢ ʔ g ⁿg m m̥ n̪ n̥̪ ɲ ŋ t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʰ d̪z̪ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ tɕ tɕʰ ⁿd̪z̪ ⁿɖʐ dʑ ⁿdʑ s̪ z̪ ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x χ ʁ h ɦ ɬ̪ w r̪ j l̪
Lahu (Black): p t tʃ k q pʰ tʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ b d dʒ ɡ m n ŋ f ʃ x v l j ɣ
Sui: p t ts tɕ k q ʔ pʰ tʰ tsʰ tɕʰ kʰ qʰ ⁿb ⁿd ɡ ʼɡ ɢ ʼb ʼd m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ ŋ̊ ʼm ʼn ʼɲ ʼŋ m n ɲ ŋ f s ɕ x h v l z j ɣ ʁ ʼw ʼj ʼɣ
Malto: p b m w t̪ d̪ n̪ θ̪ s r l ʈ ɖ ɽ c ɟ ɲ j k g ŋ q ɣ h
Northern Qiang (Yadu): p t̪ k q pʰ t̪ʰ kʰ qʰ b d̪ g ts ʈʂ tɕ tsʰ ʈʂʰ tɕʰ dz ɖʐ dʑ ɸ s ʂ ɕ x χ h z ʐ ʁ ɦ m n̪ ɲ ŋ ɬ l w j
Balti (Kharkoo): p pʰ b t tʰ d k kʰ g ts tsʰ tʃ tʃʰ dʒ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ ʈ ʈʰ ɖ q s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h l̥ l m n ŋ w j
Purki: p pʰ b t̪ t̪ʰ d̪ k kʰ g q χ ɢ ts tsʰ tʃ tʃʰ dʒ s z ʃ ʒ x h m n ɲ ŋ l r w j
Tsez (Asax): p b t̪ d̪ k g q qˤ ʡ pʼ t̪ʼ kʼ qʼ qˤʼ ts tʃ tsʼ tʃʼ s z ʃ ʒ χ ʁ ʁˤ ʜ h m n̪ r̪ t̪ɬ t̪ɬʼ ɬ l w j
Northern Qiang (Hongyan): p t̪ k q pʰ t̪ʰ kʰ qʰ b d̪ g ts tʂ tɕ tsʰ tʂʰ tɕʰ dz dʐ dʑ s ʂ ɕ x χ h z ʐ ʑ ʁ ɦ m n̪ ɲ ŋ l ɬ w j
Lizu: p pʰ b t tʰ d k kʰ g q qʰ ʔ ts tsʰ dz tʃ tʃʰ dʒ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ m n ɲ ŋ s z ʃ ʒ ɕ ʑ x ɣ h w ɹ j l ɬ ⁿpʰ ⁿb ⁿtʰ ⁿd ⁿtsʰ ⁿdz ⁿtʃʰ ⁿdʒ ⁿtɕʰ ⁿdʑ ŋ̩
Puxi: p t̪ k q pʰ t̪ʰ kʰ qʰ b d̪ g t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʰ d̪z̪ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ f s ʂ ɕ χ z ʐ ʁ m n̪ ɲ ŋ l m̩ n̪̩ ŋ̩
Dari: p b t d k g q m n f s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h tʃ dʒ ɾ w j l
Hinuq: p p’ b t̪ t̪’ d̪ k k’ g q q’ ʡ ʔ kʷ k’ʷ gʷ qʷ q’ʷ f s z ɬ ʃ ʒ χ ʁ ħ h χʷ ʁʷ ts ts’ tɬ tɬ’ tʃ tʃ’ m n̪ r̪ l v j
Kumzari: p b t d tˤ dˤ k g q ʔ tʃ dʒ m n f s sˤ zˤ ʃ χ ʁ ħ ɦ ɻ j w l
Alqosh Neo-Aramaic: p t tʃ k q ʔ b d dʒ g tˤ tʃˤ f θ s ʃ x ħ h v ð z ɣ sˤ ðˤ zˤ m n l r rˤ w j ʕ
Amədya Neo-Aramaic: pʰ b pˤ bˤ tʰ d tˤ dˤ kʰ g q ʔ f v θ ðˤ s z sˤ zˤ ʃ ʒ x ɣ ħ h m mˤ n r ɻˤ j w ʕ l tʃ tʃˤ dʒʰ
Arbel Neo-Aramaic: b pʰ f w m tʰ d n r l ʃ ʒ s z tˤ sˤ dˤ zˤ tʃʰ dʒ j kʰ g x ɣ q ʔ h ʕ ħ
Betanure Neo-Aramaic: b d dˤ g p pˤ t tˤ k q ʔ dʒ tʃ tʃˤ ð z ʒ ʁ ʕ θ s sˤ ʃ x ħ h m mˤ n l lˤ r rˤ w j
Barwar Neo-Aramaic: pʰ pˤ b tʰ tˤ d tʃˤ kʰ g q ʔ θ s ð z sˤ ʃ x ɣ ħ h m mˤ n l lˤ w j tʃʰ rˤ r
Kalkoti: p t ʈ k q pʰ tʰ kʰ b d ɖ g m n ts ʈʂ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ s ʂ ɕ x z ɣ r ʋ j l
Darra-i-Nur Pashai (Southeast Pashai): p t ʈ k q b d ɖ g tʃ dʒ s ʂ ʃ z f x h ɣ r ɽ ɬ l m n ɳ ŋ w j
Mehweb: b d g gʷ p t k kʷ q qʷ ʔ ʔʷ pʼ tʼ kʼ kʼʷ qʼ qʼʷ s ʃ ɣ ʁ ʁʷ z ʒ x χ χʷ ħ ħʷ h hʷ ts tʃ tsʼ tʃʼ m w n l r j
Domari (Aleppo): m n p b t d k g q ʔ f s z ʃ x ɣ ħ ʕ h tˤ dˤ zˤ tʃ dʒ ʋ j r l
Xong: p pʰ ⁿp ⁿpʰ pʲ pʲʰ ⁿpʲʰ t tʰ ⁿt ⁿtʰ tʲ tʲʰ ⁿtʲ ⁿtʲʰ ts tsʰ ⁿts ⁿtsʰ tɕ tɕʰ ⁿtɕ ⁿtɕʰ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ⁿʈʂ ⁿʈʂʰ k kʰ ⁿk ⁿkʰ kʲ kʲʰ ⁿkʲ ⁿkʲʰ q qʰ ⁿq ⁿqʰ qʷ qʷʰ ⁿqʷ ⁿqʷʰ m mʰ mʲ f ʋ n nʰ l lʰ nʲ lʲ lʲʰ s ɕ j ɳ ʂ ʐ ŋ ŋʷ h hʷ m̩
Standard Arabic (Kuwait): b tʰ d kʰ q ʔ m n f θ ð s z ʃ x ɣ ħ h dʒ r j w l tˤ dˤ sˤ ðˤ lˤ ʔ̙
Iron Ossetic: b pʰ p’ d̪ t̪ʰ t̪’ g gʷ kʰ kʷ k’ k’ʷ q qʷ ʔ f v s z ʒ ʃ ʁ ʁʷ χ χʷ h dz ts ts’ dʒ tʃ tʃ’ m n l r w j
Digor Ossetic: b pʰ p’ d̪ t̪ʰ t̪’ g gʷ kʰ kʷ k’ k’ʷ q qʷ ʔ f v s z ʁ ʁʷ χ χʷ h dz ts ts’ m n l r w j
Sakha (Standard): p b m t̺ s̻ d̺ n̺ r ɫ̺ ɲ cç ɟʝ j j̃ k g ŋ q ʁ ħ
Dolgan: m b p n d t s ɫ r ɲ ɟ c dʒ tʃ j ŋ g ɢ q h ɬ r̥
Dargwa (Icari): b p pː p’ d̪ t̪ t̪ː t̪’ z̪ s̪ s̪ː t̪s̪ t̪s̪ː t̪s̪’ ʒ ʃː tʃ tʃː tʃ’ k kː k’ ɣ x xː q qː q’ ʁ χ χː kʷ kːʷ k’ʷ ɣʷ xʷ xːʷ qʷ qːʷ q’ʷ ʁʷ χʷ χːʷ ʡ’ ħ ʔ h w j m n l r
Sumi (Sema): p pʰ b mʰ m f v t tʰ d nʰ n ɹ lʰ l tʃ tʃʰ ʃ ʒ k kʰ g x ɣ ŋ q qʰ h
Khalaj: p b t̪ d̪ k g q ɢ x ɣ χ ʁ tʃ s ʃ z n j l r ħ
Bashkir: pʰ b m w θ ð tʰ d s l n r ʃ j kʰ g x ŋ q ʁ h
Tatar (Standard): p b t̪ d̪ s̪ z̪ m n̪ β l r ɕ ʃ ʒ ʑ j k g ŋ q χ ʁ ʔ h v f ts tɕ ɕː
Uyghur (Xinjiang): p b m w n̪ t̪ d̪ s z l r tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ j k g ŋ q x ʁ ʔ h f v ts ɕː
Kyrgyz (Standard): p b f v m t̪ d̪ t̪s̪ s̪ z̪ tʃ dʒ ʃ n ɫ r j q χ ɢ ɴ
Northern Altai (Kumandy): p pː m t tː s̺ ɕ r̺ l̺ n cçː c ɲ q qː ɣ ŋ ʔ
Tuvan (Standard): b̥ β g ɣ d̪̥ t̪ʰ ʒ ʃ s z q l m n̪ ŋ pʰ ɾ χ h tʃ j ts p b f v t̪ d̪
Kumyk: b p v f m d̪ t̪ z s dʒ tʃ ʒ ʃ n l r k g q ʁ χ ɴ h
Kazakh: b p m w v f d t z s ts tʃ n l ʒ ʃ ɕ ɣ r k g q ʁ χ ɴ h
Karakalpak: b p w m v f d t z s ts n l ʒ ʃ tʃ dʒ r ɣ k g q ʁ χ ɴ h
Nogai: b p w v m d t ʒ ʃ z s n l r g k ɣ q ʁ χ ɴ
Uzbek: pʰ b f w m tʰ d s z n l r kʰ g ʃ ʒ tʃ dʒ ɣ q ʁ χ ŋ h
Balkar: b p d t w v f m z s ʒ ʃ dʒ tʃ n l r g k ɣ q ʁ χ ɴ
Atayal: p t k q ʔ β ʒ ɣ s x ħ ts r l m n j w
Sorani Kurdish: p b m w f v t̪ d̪ s̪ z̪ n̪ l̪ ɫ̪ ɾ̪ r̪ sˤ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ j k g x ɣ ŋ q ħ ʕ ʔ h
Lak (Kumux): p pʼ pː b m w t̪ t̪ʼ t̪ː d̪ n̪ l̪ r̪ t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʼ t̪s̪ː s̪ s̪ː z̪ tʃ tʃː tʃʼ ʃ ʃː ʒ j k kʼ kː ɣ x xː q qʼ qː χ χː ʁ ʜ h ʔ tʃʷ tʃːʷ tʃʼʷ ʃʷ ʃːʷ ʒʷ kʷ kʼʷ kːʷ ɣʷ xʷ xːʷ qʷ qʼʷ qːʷ χʷ χːʷ
Burushaski (Hunza): p pʰ b f m w t tʰ d n l ts tsʰ z s r ʈ ʈʰ ɖ tɕ tɕʰ dʑ ɕ j ʈʂ ʈʂʰ ɖʐ ʂ ʐʲ k kʰ g x ŋ q qʰ ɢ h
Kolyma Yukaghir: p t d k g q tɕ dʑ ʃ ʒ ʁ m n ɲ ŋ l ʎ r w j
Tundra Yukaghir: p b t d tʃ dʒ k g q ʁ s m n ɲ ŋ r l j w ʎ
Taz Selkup: p t tɕ k q s ɕ m n nʲ r l lʲ w j ŋ
Tajik (Bukhara): p b m f v t̪ d̪ s z n ɾ l ɕ tɕ ʑ dʑ j k g q χ ʁ h
Nivkh (West Sakhalin): pʰ p ɸ β m w tʰ t r̥ r n l cç cçʰ s z ɲ j k kʰ x ɣ ŋ q qʰ χ ʁ h
Domari (Palestinian): p b m f v w t̪ d̪ n̪ s̪ z̪ l̪ r̪ t̪ˤ d̪ˤ s̪ˤ z̪ˤ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ j k g x ɫ ɣ q χ ħ ʕ h ʔ
Eastern Khanty (Vakh): p v m t s n l ʈʂ ɳ ɭ r c j ɲ ʎ q ʁ ŋ
Naukan Yupik: p m w v t s l̥ l n r j k x ɣ ŋ q χ ʁ
Itelmen: p pʼ t̺ t̺ʼ k kʼ q q̺ t̺ɕ̺ t̺ɕ̺ʼ ɸ β s̺ z̺ j x ɣ χ l lʲ l̥ʲ m n nʲ ŋ r ʔ
Lezgian (Güne): b p pʰ pʼ f m w d̪ t̪ʰ t̪ t̪ʼ n̪ l̪ r̪ t̪ʰʷ t̪ʷ t̪ʼʷ t̪s̪ t̪s̪ʼ t̪s̪ʰ t̪s̪ʰʷ t̪s̪ʷ t̪s̪ʼʷ s̪ z̪ s̪ʷ z̪ʷ j tʃ tʃʰ tʃʼ ʃ ʒ g k kʰ kʼ gʷ kʷ kʰʷ kʼʷ x q qʰ qʼ qʼʷ qʰʷ qʷ χ χʷ ʁ ʁʷ h ʔ pʲ pʰʲ pʼʲ fʲ t̪ʰʲ t̪ʲ t̪ʼʲ t̪ʰʷʲ t̪ʷʲ t̪ʼʷʲ t̪s̪ʲ t̪s̪ʼʲ t̪s̪ʰʲ t̪s̪ʰʷʲ t̪s̪ʷʲ t̪s̪ʼʷʲ s̪ʲ s̪ʷʲ kʲ kʰʲ kʼʲ kʷʲ kʰʷʲ kʼʷʲ xʲ qʲ qʰʲ qʼʲ qʼʷʲ qʰʷʲ qʷʲ χʲ χʷʲ ɢ
Ishkashimi: p b t ʈ d ɖ k g q ts dz tʃ ʈʂ dʒ f v s z ʃ ʂ ʒ ʐ x ɣ w j m n l r h ɭ
Wakhi: p b w m f v t d ts dz tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ l̥ r θ ð s z ʈ ɖ ʈʂ ɖʐ ʂ ʐ ɭ̥ n j k g x ɣ q χ ʁ ç ɽ̊
Kurmanji Kurdish: b dʒ tʃʰ tʃˤ d f g h ħ ʒ kʰ kˤ l m n pʰ q ɾ r s ʃ tʰ tˤ v w χ ʁ j z ʢ
Paiwan (Kulalao): p b t d c ɟ ts ɖ k g q ʔ v m w r n ɺ j ŋ ʎ
Yaghnobi: p b β̞ m f v t d tʃ dʒ s z ʃʲ ʒʲ n l r k g j q χ χʷ ʁ ħ ʕ h
Kabardian: p b p’ t d t’ ts dz ts’ kʷ gʷ k’ʷ q qʷ q’ q’ʷ ʔ ʔʷ f v f’ s z ɬ ɮ ɬ’ ɕ ʑ ɕ’ ʃ ʒ ç ʝ xʷ c’ c ɟ χ ʁ χʷ ʁʷ ʕ h m n r j w

It is not exactly voiceless uvular stop though there is some similarity because I know that in the Northern Caucasus sound K also sounds rather harsh but with additional voiceless stop. In Kazakh language there is no stop or a pause after sound K. It is just pronounced closer to a throat area. It is not pronounced like for example K'aimak ( with a short pause) but just Kaimak.

[Shubotai]

As updated on the other thread, Kazakhs and Mongols should have different origins, Kazakhs being of Turkic origin and belonging mainly to C-M401 (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ryan_Wei/publication/322645447/figure/fig1/AS:585982265032704@1516720467804/Distribution-of-the-Y-chromosome-lineage-C2-Star-Cluster-across-Eurasia.png) and Mongols to C-F1756 (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ryan_Wei/publication/317316325/figure/fig1/AS:501451639017472@1496566795753/Distribution-of-the-Y-chromosome-lineage-C3-DYS448del-referred-to-as-F1756-in-this.png). Mongols moved mainly southwestwards in Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. The area of Central Asia should have been turkified long ago by Kazakhs, Karakalpaks and other turkic tribes. Appart from these, there is a whole array of haplogroups specific for Kazakhs, like G-M285, N-M128, R-M198 etc.

[Chocolate_Hound]

Turkics and Mongols aren't quite the same as true East Asians. There are some chilling similarities no doubt, but they're not quite the same.

[Visitor_22]

As updated on the other thread, Kazakhs and Mongols should have different origins, Kazakhs being of Turkic origin and belonging mainly to C-M401 (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ryan_Wei/publication/322645447/figure/fig1/AS:585982265032704@1516720467804/Distribution-of-the-Y-chromosome-lineage-C2-Star-Cluster-across-Eurasia.png) and Mongols to C-F1756 (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ryan_Wei/publication/317316325/figure/fig1/AS:501451639017472@1496566795753/Distribution-of-the-Y-chromosome-lineage-C3-DYS448del-referred-to-as-F1756-in-this.png). Mongols moved mainly southwestwards in Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. The area of Central Asia should have been turkified long ago by Kazakhs, Karakalpaks and other turkic tribes. Appart from these, there is a whole array of haplogroups specific for Kazakhs, like G-M285, N-M128, R-M198 etc.

C-F1756 is more common among Turks of Central Asia than Mongols. Kalmyks & Buryats have almost no C-F1756 but mostly C2-M48 and C2-M407.

Also C2-M401 is the most common haplogroup among Hazaras of Afghanistan.

[Shubotai]

That is correct. The confusion arises from the fact that Mongolia was originally the homeland of Turks while Mongols moved en large into Central Asia. Of course, Kazakh is a turkic language heavily shaped by migrations of Siberian like people into Central Asia.

Indeed, in the ethnic groups we find C-F1756 among Turkic peoples, Khalkha Mongols, Nogai and ancient Xianbei.
While C-M401 with 15% in Mongolians, 25% in Kazakhs, especially senior Zhuz, and 33% in Hazara and 7% in Pakistani.
C-M407 in 10% of Kalmyks, 40% in Buryats, 67% in Qongyrats and possibly Chinggis Khaan. C-M407 is descendant of C-CTS2657, a proto-Koreanic
haplogroup which is not under Altaic C-L1373, but under East Asian C-F1067.
And C-M86 with 30% in Kalmyks, 18% in Kazakhs, 40% in Oirat Mongols etc.

However linguistically the connection would be:
C-F1756 proto-Turkic
C-M401 proto-Mongolic
C-M86 proto-Tungusic

So to answer the original question also, Kazakhs are turkified Mongols and Khalkha mongolified Turks. If Kazakhstan and Mongolia switched languages it would pe perfect. In the west usually referring to Mongols meaning Kazakhstan so oddly enough they get it correctly, no worry. Also, Kazakhastan is switching to latin alphabet.