Natural Resources and Communism

[GiCa]

Is it too much utopic?

I ve always considered myself as liberal pro Capitalism and somewhat adverse to more collective extreme ideas because I've always considered Comunism a failure.

But in my true heart I'm somewhat of a more collectivist.. For example utopically I would prefer that natural resources should be of public propriety.. Like in this way: if you want to use water or a land you never become owner of that land but you can use it as you want to transform it.. But you should pay taxes to the state to owning that in that moment.

This already exist thought.. As you already pay taxes to the public. So thee is a collective redistribution.

In many states you always pay taxes on your propriety.. So maybe that is pointless.

Maybe I'm just confused. And such society is higlu dangerous in the long run.

Btw I've never voted for communist parties anyway

[LawrenceMartinez]

There is no such thing as ''public property'', what you call public property is nothing more than a mafia called Government illegitimately appropriating private property and forcing people to pay for it through a monopoly of aggression.
Any form of collectivism is not only utopical, but collectivism itself goes against the most basic right human beings have: the right to property.

[LawrenceMartinez]

Also taxation is theft

[GiCa]

Propriety is not a right

The earth is of everybody. The soil is of everybody.. Like the water and the air.

Each time someone use one of those, air, soil, water, should pay taxes because he use them and they are not for other disposition.

If you own land, you should pay taxes to the state

[Bosniensis]

My family lived in communism, we lost tons of land "so others can have some" as well... of course the most valuable land was given to important Communist officials who were Communist Despots.

Communism is lie.

[LawrenceMartinez]

Propriety is not a right

The earth is of everybody. The soil is of everybody.. Like the water and the air.

Each time someone use one of those, air, soil, water, should pay taxes because he use them and they are not for other disposition.

If you own land, you should pay taxes to the state

What? This makes no sense at all.
If you bought a piece of land it is yours, if a river flows through your land it is yours, and it doesn't means that other people can't use it, but THEY should pay you for it, not you should pay to the government,

[GiCa]

My family lived in communism, we lost tons of land "so others can have some" as well... of course the most valuable land was given to important Communist officials who were Communist Despots.

Communism is lie.

With this i agree. Unfortunately it's made also of people who can be incorrect.

That is way is utopia and it's dangerous.

Ideally thought land as soil should be public.

The ideal system is taxation to those who own soil

[GiCa]

What? This makes no sense at all.
If you bought a piece of land it is yours, if a river flows through your land it is yours, and it doesn't means that other people can't use it, but THEY should pay you for it, not you should pay to the government,

Why? Soil is collective. Those who own soil should pay to the state

[Bosniensis]

With this i agree. Unfortunately it's made also of people who can be incorrect.

That is way is utopia and it's dangerous.

Ideally thought land as soil should be public.

The ideal system is taxation to those who own soil

Ideal system is Roman Bureaucracy (Roman Empire)... WORK and you will Have, Fight and you will be rich... everything else is a lie.

[LawrenceMartinez]

Why? Soil is mine. Those who own soil should pay to me

So you are saying that the government owns the land and you should pay it to use the land?

[LawrenceMartinez]

Nobody have a ''right to have land'', people have a right to legitimatelly apropriate land. If the government forces you to pay for your own land or steal It and gives to other people, it is not a legitimate form of property and therefore it is anti ethical.

[GiCa]

So you are saying that the government owns the land and you should pay it to use the land?

Yes

[GiCa]

Also taxation is theft

OK so you have to pray that you don't become poor because in that case you would not have access to education and even worse to medical care.

Pray that in your ideal society you don't become poor and if you become poor to at least don't become ill and needing for medical care

[Marmara]

What? This makes no sense at all.
If you bought a piece of land it is yours, if a river flows through your land it is yours, and it doesn't means that other people can't use it, but THEY should pay you for it, not you should pay to the government,

Nope, people have right to use water if it's in your territory, according to law here at least.

[GiCa]

I'm not an anti capitalist. Infact I'm a pro capitalist

Only that I belive that natural limited resources are of everybody (of the state), so that no one should own them, what one can do is use them and pay taxes because if he use them there's another one who instead can't use them.

Of course if you make profit out of them, the profit is your Althought it may be object of taxation according to your tax system

[GiCa]

But yes, maybe this is too Utopic and actually won't work, or is a wrong idea.

[LawrenceMartinez]

Yes

So you worked for that land with YOUR property, you bought the land with YOUR money and the goverment owns it and you should pay him to use the land that YOU bought because other people coundn't buy land too? This is stupid, it makes no sense at all.




OK so you have to pray that you don't become poor because in that case you would not have access to education and even worse to medical care.

Pray that in your ideal society you don't become poor and if you become poor to at least don't become ill and needing for medical care

There is only one reason why people become poor: lack of economic freedom. When you agree with taxation, land appropriation and collectivism, you are legitimizing the poverty that the government creates. We already live in your ideal society, and people are already poor. This discussion is not about what works best in a society, but what is ethical to do.
There is no way to defend taxes and collectivism without falling into contradiction. If you defend taxes you must also defend what cartels and organized crime do, from an ethical point of view there is no difference between a politician and a drug dealer forcing you to pay taxes.

[LawrenceMartinez]

Nope, people have right to use water if it's in your territory, according to law here at least.

According to the sharia law people can rape women and stone them. What a politician writes in a paper have no value, there is only legitimate one law and it is the law of property.

[GiCa]

Ideally the soil is of everybody. But maybe it won't work because people are not honest.

So the solution is taxation on soil and water owners.. Taxation on the soil and water they own..because both are limited resources and if someone use them there's another one who can't use them.

So yes.. I'm communist only on the matters of natural limited resources

[LawrenceMartinez]

Ideally the soil is of everybody. But maybe it won't work because people are not honest.

So the solution is taxation on soil and water owners.. Taxation on the soil and water they own..because both are limited resources and if someone use them there's another one who can't use them.

So yes.. I'm communist only on the matters of natural limited resources

People are not honest, so we should be forced to pay taxes becaus those specific people in the government are honest and have the right to use our land. What?

[GiCa]

People are not honest, so we should be forced to pay taxes becaus those specific people in the government are honest and have the right to use our land. What?

No. The land is of everybody. So if you own land you should pay taxes on it because you own it taking away from other a limited natural resource


You can own it.. But you pay society something

[LawrenceMartinez]

No. The land is of everybody. So if you own land you should pay taxes on it because you own it taking away from other a limited natural resource

This idea of public property os contradictory by itself. If you defend this idea you must defend that everything is public property (if you are using a t-shirt another person isn't, so you should pay taxes. If you raise cows and make profit of them, another person is not so you should pay taxes for it, and etc, this logic can be applied to anything), and then we end with communism which you know what means (millions of deaths, hungry, poverty and opression).

[GiCa]

Natural Limited Resources are of the Comunity

[GiCa]

This idea of public property os contradictory by itself. If you defend this idea you must defend that everything is public property (if you are using a t-shirt another person isn't, so you should pay taxes. If you raise cows and make profit of them, another person is not so you should pay taxes for it, and etc, this logic can be applied to anything), and then we end with communism which you know what means (millions of deaths, hungry, poverty and opression).

No

I only think that Natural limited resources are of everybody, those are: Air, Water, Soil

I'm not talking about human transformed resources (not even animals and fruits are because they can be infinetly generated)

[LawrenceMartinez]

Natural Limited Resources are of the Comunity

No, they are not. There's not really what to argue about it, it's just an opinion you have that does not reflect the reality.
The reality is that people have the right to own property, and if any form of government goes against this right, it is not legitimate.

[GiCa]

No, they are not. That's not really what to argue about it, it's just an opinion you have that does not reflect the reality.
The reality is that people have the right to own property, and if any form of government goes against this right, it is not legitimate.

I'm not say that you can't own propriety, infact you can own soil and water.. I'm just saying that if you own them you take them away from others (because they are naturally limited) so you should pay taxes on them

But you remain owner

[LawrenceMartinez]

I'm not say that you can't own propriety, infact you can own soil and water.. I'm just saying that if you own them you take them away from others (because they are naturally limited) so you should pay taxes on them

But you remain owner

No, you don't take it away from any other person. You buy it from a previous legitimate owner through a private property contract.

[GiCa]

Infact in almost all the countries of the world you pay tax on your soil or water

[LawrenceMartinez]

Infact in almost all the countries of the world you pay tax on your soil or water

In fact anywhere this is anti ethical.

[GiCa]

No, you don't take it away from any other person. You buy it from a previous legitimate owner through a private property contract.

Yes that's true

But since one own them one pay taxes on them

[GiCa]

But maybe a society like that is dangerous.

I still have to Decide if I would be pro that


But taxes should exist. Another thing is decide what to taxate

[Marmara]

According to the sharia law people can rape women and stone them. What a politician writes in a paper have no value, there is only legitimate one law and it is the law of property.

What a retarded thing to say. Water rights are regulated, you don't have infinite rights on it just because river passes from your territory.

But i don't know how things work out in Brazil of course.

[GiCa]

Yes.. Communism has always demonstrated failure, and social unhappiness.

Comunism is not healthy

I think that taxation is the true good communism, what to taxate is another thing.
With tax there is the redistribution of equality in collective free services essencial to humans like. Justice, health system. And education who are better I think left public

Education
Health
Justice
Shoudl be public, there can also be private health structure or private school, but those of them who are private should not receive even a single cent of money from. The state. If they want to exist they should be completely funded by privates

[LawrenceMartinez]

So if I find oil in my property other people can use it too? If there are trees inside my property people can just come in and cut them down? This makes no sense. I don't understand this logic that ''limited natural resources belong to everybody''. Limited resources are the basis of any free market and price system, limited resources are exactly what creates value to a property. The government can not just come in and say ''hmm, I think you should give me part of your property because other people don't have it and if you don't I will kill you''.

[LawrenceMartinez]

What a retarded thing to say. Water rights are regulated, you don't have infinite rights on it just because river passes from your territory.

But i don't know how things work out in Brazil of course.

What I tried to say is that the constitution have no value at all, politicians can write anything they want there to steal your property.