Who are the most "Germanic" non-Germanics today?

[Proud Celt]

In terms of ancestry/unbroken descent from Germanic speaking people.

Inspired by the thread "Who are the most 'Celtic' non-Celts today?" from Sikeliot.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?240811-Who-are-the-most-Celtic-non-Celts-today

[Teutonski]

Icelandic people

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

i don't know, but slovenians got lot of german blood. i'm half slovenian and plot close to germans and austrians depending on calculator, also got germanic ydna

[Ülev]

nice maps here: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%9Cermanoj

[Blondie]

Countries with significant german/germanic genetic: Czechia, Finland, Hungary, Slovenia, north Italy, east France, west Slovakia,

[Erronkari]

British people of the north sea coast???

[Dandelion]

I dunno. I guess Lowland Scots or so, because they speak a Germanic language (except for the tiny minority still speaking Gaelic). It does pull one further in the Germanic realm. If non-Germanic speakers were concerned Walloons might be a contender as well and maybe Finns as well. They seem to like their Scandinavian neighbours enough.

[Dandelion]

Icelandic people

They're still mainly Germanic. Descendants of Vikings with heavy Celtic admixture. Not exactly non-Germanic in my book.

[Dacul]

Islands of Orkney people.
Those people of Orkney even speak English with Scandinavian accent.
Lowlands Scotts also seem quite germanic.

[Ülev]

nice maps here: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%9Cermanoj

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png

:rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

Lowland Scots are Germanic, so they should not be on the list, neither Icelanders.

I think the answer can only be northern French, Irish, or Poles/Czechs.

[Dandelion]

Lowland Scots are Germanic, so they should not be on the list, neither Icelanders.

I think the answer can only be northern French, Irish, or Poles/Czechs.

Walloons more than Northern French, except for French Flemings and Alsatians. ;)

[Proud Celt]

Lowland Scots are Germanic, so they should not be on the list, neither Icelanders.

I think the answer can only be northern French, Irish, or Poles/Czechs.

If they are so germanic, why did they have Scottish Gaelic surnames like "Cunningham" or "Armstrong"? In some parts of the Lowland Scottish Gaelic was still spoken until the 18th century. The last Cornish speaker died in the 17th century and Cornwall is still considered to be a Celtic Nation.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Lowland Scots are Germanic, so they should not be on the list, neither Icelanders.

I think the answer can only be northern French, Irish, or Poles/Czechs.

i don't think poles are much germanic tbh

[Proud Celt]

If they are so germanic, why did they have Scottish Gaelic surnames like "Cunningham" or "Armstrong"? In some parts of the Lowland Scottish Gaelic was still spoken until the 18th century. The last Cornish speaker died in the 17th century and Cornwall is still considered to be a Celtic Nation.

By the way, I don't want to deny the germanic influence on Lowland Scotland or the fact that most of the Lowland Scots have spoken a germanic language for nearly 1000 years, but to say they are just Germanic is a bit to simplistic for me.

[Ayetooey]

If they are so germanic, why did they have Scottish Gaelic surnames like "Cunningham" or "Armstrong"? In some parts of the Lowland Scottish Gaelic was still spoken until the 18th century. The last Cornish speaker died in the 17th century and Cornwall is still considered to be a Celtic Nation.

Cornwall plots identically to the rest of Southern England, they're no "celtic" than the English. Scots can be just as Germanic as English.

I'd vote Ireland.

[Dacul]

Orkney got R1b-U106 as the highest percentage paternal line.
I think they also have like 35% R1A Norse.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/first-people-of-british-isles-paper.html?m=1
Orkney got 11% East Europe DNA.
They say Orkney got 25% Norway DNA ,autosomal.
How much from other Germanic people like AngloSaxons,Danes, who knows.

[J. Ketch]

If they are so germanic, why did they have Scottish Gaelic surnames like "Cunningham" or "Armstrong"? In some parts of the Lowland Scottish Gaelic was still spoken until the 18th century. The last Cornish speaker died in the 17th century and Cornwall is still considered to be a Celtic Nation.
Cunningham and Armstrong are Gaelic names? They sound very English origin to me.

[Grace O'Malley]

Is this a genetics question or cultural? If genetics then Irish people are close genetically to both Scandinavians and Germanics. It is surprising how many people have problems with this. I'm not sure why myself as being Irish I just go with what genetics shows. I'm still not sure whether labels like Celtic or Germanic are helpful in these discussions.

If language the answer might be different but areas of Ireland like Wexford and Dublin had their own Germanic languages i.e. Fingalian and Yola. Most Irish though are not descended from Germanic speakers.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-yola-and-fingalian-%E2%80%93-the-forgotten-ancient-english-dialects-of-ireland-985649-Jul2013/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_and_Bargy_dialect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingallian

I'm sure a lot of people aren't aware of the languages above.

[Proud Celt]

Cunningham and Armstrong are Gaelic names? They sound very English origin to me.

Cunningham comes from the Gaelic word "coineanach" which means rabbit and the Saxon word "ham" which means village.

Armstrong can be both, Anglo-Saxon and Gaelic so I was wrong about that name.

[Scandal]

Icelandic people

They're germanics though.

[Ryuk]

Finns,nordic(proto-germanic) blood strong in them

[J. Ketch]

Goes back to the recurring question of what makes you more of something; genetic similarity to a group or ancestral admixture from them?

[Pribislav]

i don't know, but slovenians got lot of german blood. i'm half slovenian and plot close to germans and austrians depending on calculator, also got germanic ydna

Your haplogroup is known as Italo-Celtic, and came from Moračani tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morača_(tribe)

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Your haplogroup is known as Italo-Celtic, and came from Moračani tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morača_(tribe)

I am R1b U106, that's a germanic marker.

[Pribislav]

I am R1b U106, that's a germanic marker.

I see. I thought you are U152 as Dick said.

Your are not conected with Montenegro, U106 does not exst in Montenegro. Legend about your ancestor from Montenegro who killed bey is probably false.

[Leto]

Czechs. They are closer to Austrians and Eastern Germans in some cases (at least Bohemians) than to Russians. And I'm not even talking about culture which was also strongly influenced by Germans.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I see. I thought you are U152 as Dick said.

Your are not conected with Montenegro, U106 does not exst in Montenegro. Legend about your ancestor from Montenegro who killed bey is probably false.

it's not, i have his surname. what probably happened is that his wife or wife of some later descendant had affair with somebody from slovenia and lied that child was from his line. from what i see this haplogroup is fairly common in slovenia. maybe even some german raped wife of my ancestor, who knows xD

[Bogdan]

Celts and some of Central Europe.

[Leto]

i don't know, but slovenians got lot of german blood. i'm half slovenian and plot close to germans and austrians depending on calculator, also got germanic ydna
Slovenia should not be considered an Eastern European nation, it's just stupid, they aren't.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Czechs. They are closer to Austrians and Eastern Germans in some cases (at least Bohemians) than to Russians. And I'm not even talking about culture which was also strongly influenced by Germans.

yeah. i have some czech down the line too and get east german as number one on some calculators

[Luke35]

Goes back to the recurring question of what makes you more of something; genetic similarity to a group or ancestral admixture from them?

Good question.

I say ancestral admix is more important.

I plot as a pseudo Austrian on maps, but it's just genetic similarity.

I'm a fake Austrian.

[Pribislav]

it's not, i have his surname. what probably happened is that his wife or wife of some later descendant had affair with somebody from slovenia and lied that child was from his line. from what i see this haplogroup is fairly common in slovenia. maybe even some german raped wife of my ancestor, who knows xD

Yea, U106 is exclusively Germanic. Few Serbs from Kosovo and Kopaonik area carry U106, and they are descendants by paternal lne of Saxon miners which live there in the mddle age.

Your female ancestor was cheated her husband with German. :)

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Yea, U106 is exclusively Germanic. Few Serbs from Kosovo and Kopaonik area carry U106, and they are descendants by paternal lne of Saxon miners which live there in the mddle age.

Your female ancestor was cheated her husband with German. :)

that's most likely, but what's the chance this serb was R-U106 ? i don't know weather he was from montenegro or not, all i know is that he comes from tromeđa region, not necessary montenegro. probably not though, other guy with same surname like mine from montenegro is haplogroup L

[Joso]

They're still mainly Germanic. Descendants of Vikings with heavy Celtic admixture. Not exactly non-Germanic in my book.

They are Celto-Germanics, bro

[Dacul]

https://media.springernature.com/lw900/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_Fig3_HTML.jpg
That Belgian - common admixture in Brits should be at least half of it, of Germanic origins.
I do not believe that Orkney with 34.2% R1A-Norse is having only 25% of their DNA of Norwegian origins, but whatever.
Orkney got higher R1A-Norse than Norway, this being Viking Norwegian paternal line.
If you take the French admixture having at least 30% Germanic origins and Belgian admixture having at least 50% Germanic origins, these Brits and Irish score between 40-50% Germanic autosomal DNA.
Germanic, including the Viking Autosomal DNA.

[Pribislav]

that's most likely, but what's the chance this serb was R-U106 ? i don't know weather he was from montenegro or not, all i know is that he comes from tromeđa region, not necessary montenegro. probably not though, other guy with same surname like mine from montenegro is haplogroup L

I have seen now there is one Serb who carry R1b-U106 from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastište
That is close to tromeđa of Serbia, BiH and Montenegro. He has dfferent surname than you.

[Gründig]

YDNA is not as important as some of you people are pretending it is. It makes up a very small amount of you and whether it's "Celtic, Germanic or slavic", determines nothing of your make up today. This doesn't need further explaining because it's common sense.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I have seen now there is one Serb from who carry R1b-U106 from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastište
That is close to tromeđa of Serbia, BiH and Montenegro. He has dfferent surname than you.

i'll buy Y37 test and will see weather i get serb matches or not. everything's possible, but extra maritial affair is probably what happened

[Ayetooey]

YDNA is not as important as some of you people are pretending it is. It makes up a very small amount of you and whether it's "Celtic, Germanic or slavic", determines nothing of your make up today. This doesn't need further explaining because it's common sense.

Perhaps, but many of us still enjoy analysing YDNA trends within ethnicites, and tracing migrations through it. Still quite important.

[Ayetooey]

i'll buy Y37 test and will see weather i get serb matches or not. everything's possible, but extra maritial affair is probably what happened

Sale ends tomorrow I think so be quick.

Like I said to you before, Ancestrydna data isn't perfect, but I'll be interested to see your results. You might end up having a rare case like Dick.

[Ayetooey]

that's most likely, but what's the chance this serb was R-U106 ? i don't know weather he was from montenegro or not, all i know is that he comes from tromeđa region, not necessary montenegro. probably not though, other guy with same surname like mine from montenegro is haplogroup L

Maybe your ancestor on paper was L, but his woman cheated on him with a German colonist.

[Leto]

YDNA is not as important as some of you people are pretending it is. It makes up a very small amount of you and whether it's "Celtic, Germanic or slavic", determines nothing of your make up today. This doesn't need further explaining because it's common sense.
Yeah, not to mention that haplogroups like R1b are common in Croatia and Slovenia, I don't see anything strange in having it.

[Pribislav]

i'll buy Y37 test and will see weather i get serb matches or not. everything's possible, but extra maritial affair is probably what happened

There is other R1b-U106 Serb from Mičioci near Sarajevo, he has different surname than this from western Serbia and you.

[Ayetooey]

Yeah, not to mention that haplogroups like R1b are common in Croatia and Slovenia, I don't see anything strange in having it.

It isn't his Y dna that's rare, it's his clade. His clade on Yfull only comes up with predominantly West Euro matches for it, couldn't see any Balkanites.

[Dacul]

YDNA is not as important as some of you people are pretending it is. It makes up a very small amount of you and whether it's "Celtic, Germanic or slavic", determines nothing of your make up today. This doesn't need further explaining because it's common sense.

Yes, is not but is known Anglo-Saxons settled in British Isles.
Later, are lots of historical evidences of Vikings settling in British Isles and Ireland.
Central Europe do have significant Germanic blood, but is actually a mix of Slavs, Germanics, some kind of Kelts and even Thracians.
So I do not think Central Europe Germanic total DNA can be close to how much Germanic DNA there is in British Isles and Ireland.
On this map, it seems some areas of Scotland are having lots of Germanic ancestry:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/---rAR5GpVQY/VQnXa-eFJII/AAAAAAAAKBM/G6E-D3ZT034/s1600/ContinentalSources.jpg

[Leto]

It isn't his Y dna that's rare, it's his clade. His clade on Yfull only comes up with English matches, and a few other West Euros. Looked through the list and there was 0 Balkan or East Euro matches.
It would be kind of strange if he was Russian for example. But he is Croat and Slovene, that's not even Eastern Europe anymore.

[Ayetooey]

It would be kind of strange if he was Russian for example. But he is Croat and Slovene, that's not even Eastern Europe anymore.

His clade is obviously rare for the region if there's no Croat or Slovene matches on Yfull, there's Croats and Slovenes with R1b but he isn't part of that clade is almost entirely Western Euro, from what I've read it's likely of Norman origin. His direct paternal ancestor was a Serb from near Montenegro btw.

[Pribislav]

It would be kind of strange if he was Russian for example. But he is Croat and Slovene, that's not even Eastern Europe anymore.

He is confused because in his famly there is a legend that his paternal ancestor came to Slovenia from area near traingle of Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro in 18th century.

[Leto]

His clade is obviously rare for the region if there's no Croat or Slovene matches on Yfull, there's Croats and Slovenes with R1b but he isn't part of that clade is almost entirely Western Euro, from what I've read it's likely of Norman origin. His direct paternal ancestor was a Serb from near Montenegro btw.
Well, who knows what happened 200-300 years ago. At least that's white Y-DNA, neither gook, nor sand nibber, haha :lol:

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

His clade is obviously rare for the region if there's no Croat or Slovene matches on Yfull, there's Croats and Slovenes with R1b but he isn't part of that clade is almost entirely Western Euro, from what I've read it's likely of Norman origin. His direct paternal ancestor was a Serb from near Montenegro btw.

this map show germanic R1b is 10-20% in northern part of slovenia,that's where my ancestry is from. but for croatia and serb lands it's really rare
http://oi68.tinypic.com/j5biag.jpg

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Well, who knows what happened 200-300 years ago. At least that's white Y-DNA, neither gook, nor sand nibber, haha :lol:

yeah man i predicted i will be haplogroup E xD

[Ayetooey]

this map show germanic R1b is 10-20% in northern part of slovenia,that's where my ancestry is from. but for croatia and serb lands it's really rare
http://oi68.tinypic.com/j5biag.jpg

Interesting. We may be overthinking this with the affair theories btw, my prediction is that it's some leftover from the Norman invasions, but your y-37 should shed light. If you're lucky and have a rare clade, or get 0 balkan matches, then researchers sometimes pay for you to upgrade to big Y, so we'll see.

[Ruggery]

South of Scotland

[Dacul]

Have not found autosomal DNA of the people from Shetland Islands, but is very likely those are even more Germanic than rest of Brits and Irish people.
Besides R1B-U106 there is R1A-Norse, which is also Germanic - Viking origins, I1, Germanic, both Viking and West Germanic, some branches of I2. R1B-S21 might have also be brought by Vikings - Orkney have plenty of R1B-U106 as paternal lines.
Because Vikings and Anglo-Saxons settled in British Isles and Ireland is very likely there are also maternal lines there that are also of Germanic origins.

[Coastal Elite]

Cornish and Lowland Scots plot fairly close to North Germans. Eastern and Northern France would be close to South and West Germany.

[Dacul]

Cornish and Lowland Scots plot fairly close to North Germans. Eastern and Northern France would be close to South and West Germany.

Sensible question:
What about Ulster Scotts and Ulster Irish people, are those quite Germanic also?

[Coastal Elite]

Sensible question:
What about Ulster Scotts and Ulster Irish people, are those quite Germanic also?

They are genetically close to Germans like most of the British Isles.

[Proud Celt]

They are genetically close to Germans like most of the British Isles.

That's a bit to simple again.
I am half Northern Irish. My family is Protestant and so likely Ulster Scottish. However, our surname is of Irish origin.
I also never seen someone with the pheotype of my father in Germany, but I've seen a lot of people with his phenotype on the British Islands (especially in Ireland and Scotland)
Here you can see a picture of him:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?271279-Classify-my-father

[Gründig]

That's a bit to simple again.
I am half Northern Irish. My family is Protestant and so likely Ulster Scottish. However, our surname is of Irish origin.
I also never seen someone with the pheotype of my father in Germany, but I've seen a lot of people with his phenotype on the British Islands (especially in Ireland and Scotland)
Here you can see a picture of him:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?271279-Classify-my-father

For the record, phenotypes do not always equal genotypes.

[Dacul]

Related to this subject:
I heard stories, with a very not nice Norwegian king (to not say an asshole king of Norway) that provoked a lot of Norwegians migration,with their families, to Ireland and British Isles.
Might be same with the migration of AngloSaxons.

[Coastal Elite]

That's a bit to simple again.
I am half Northern Irish. My family is Protestant and so likely Ulster Scottish. However, our surname is of Irish origin.
I also never seen someone with the pheotype of my father in Germany, but I've seen a lot of people with his phenotype on the British Islands (especially in Ireland and Scotland)
Here you can see a picture of him:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?271279-Classify-my-father

Yeah, it's a simplification but generally true. I do agree that there are certain facial types and body types that are more common in the British Isles than Germany. The "Brunn" Irish comes to mind. I think Ireland, Scotland, and England share many distant ancestors with Germans, so that accounts for the genetic similarity.

[Phenix]

Lowland Scots could be considered Germanic.


nice maps here: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%9Cermanoj

Esperanto?

[Ülev]

Lowland Scots could be considered Germanic.



Esperanto?

why not? almost zero of text and 2 pictures :rolleyes:

[Dacul]

Just seen some new graphs of genetic testing, Orkney Islands people are overlapping with Norwegians :) .

[Albannach]

The South of Scotland clusters with the Irish and the Southwest Lowlands has the lowest R1b-U106 on the island of Britain. and I1 is only about 9% in Scotland. I think a lot of people have a warped view of Scotland both historically and genetically. And it isn't quite as black and white as "Lowland Scotland" and "Highland Scotland" and never the twine shall meet, most people that live in the lowlands are a Highland/Lowland/Irish mix and Gaelic was never a language only confined to the Highlands, almost all of Scotland was Gaelic speaking at one point and in most of the Lowlands it was a Brythonic Celtic language that it replaced. Ironically it is The south that is closest to the Gaelic Irish. I live in NW Germany and I find that lowland Scots certainly don't look particularly similiar in either appearence or nature to Germans, I can easily tell them apart.

Irish Genographic Project
https://i.imgur.com/ojViWPH.jpg
Cymru DNA, map of R1b-U106
https://i.imgur.com/BGGdSWR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zm0g03y.gif

[Dacul]

The South of Scotland clusters with the Irish and the Southwest Lowlands has the lowest R1b-U106 on the island of Britain. and I1 is only about 9% in Scotland. I think a lot of people have a warped view of Scotland both historically and genetically. And it isn't quite as black and white as "Lowland Scotland" and "Highland Scotland" and never the twine shall meet, most people that live in the lowlands are a Highland/Lowland/Irish mix and Gaelic was never a language only confined to the Highlands, almost all of Scotland was Gaelic speaking at one point and in most of the Lowlands it was a Brythonic Celtic language that it replaced. Ironically it is The south that is closest to the Gaelic Irish. I live in NW Germany and I find that lowland Scots certainly don't look particularly similiar in either appearence or nature to Germans, I can easily tell them apart.
https://i.imgur.com/ojViWPH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BGGdSWR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zm0g03y.gif
No idea who made this graph and what the methods used were.
So I am hesitating to believe anything from this graph.
I do not know too much about Gaelic languages, but one thing that I know for sure is that Gaelic Scottish is from a different branch of Gaelic languages compared to Gaelic Irish.
And Scottish people can usually be distinguished as physical look, with ease, when compared to Irish people.

[Albannach]

No idea who made this graph and what the methods used were.
So I am hesitating to believe anything from this graph.
I do not know too much about Gaelic languages, but one thing that I know for sure is that Gaelic Scottish is from a different branch of Gaelic languages compared to Gaelic Irish.
And Scottish people can usually be distinguished as physical look, with ease, when compared to Irish people.

The first graph comes from the Irish genographic project carried out by Trinity College Dublin and the R1b-U106 map comes from Cymru DNA, both very reputable sources.

I agree with you to a degree that some Irish do have a very distinct look that could only be Irish, but I wouldn't exaggerate the phenotypical difference.

And both Scottish Gaelic and Irish belong to the Goidelic branch of Celtic languages and share a common origin, both developing from middle Irish.

[Proud Celt]

No idea who made this graph and what the methods used were.
So I am hesitating to believe anything from this graph.
I do not know too much about Gaelic languages, but one thing that I know for sure is that Gaelic Scottish is from a different branch of Gaelic languages compared to Gaelic Irish.
And Scottish people can usually be distinguished as physical look, with ease, when compared to Irish people.

Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are both Gaelic Languages and really similar.

"There are some disputes as to whether or not Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages or if they are simply different dialects of the same language. ... The general consensus however is that Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic have enough differences to be considered a different language."

To the graphic: I think we all know that no one in England is 100% Anglo-Saxon or Germanic. Everyone in England have at least a bit Insular Celtic blood. But I am not sure if England is really just 10-30% Germanic.

[Peterski]

i don't know, but slovenians got lot of german blood. i'm half slovenian and plot close to germans and austrians depending on calculator, also got germanic ydna

Austrians and other South Germans (High Germans) themselves are largely Celtic (or actually Italo-Celtic with some other Med/Southern admixtures as well) descended, in contrast to North Germans (Low Germans) who are much more Germanic than High Germans. This is visible both in autosomal DNA and also in Y-DNA haplogroups.

South German admix =/= Germanic, at least not in non-dilluted form.

[Peterski]

Paternally (in terms of Y-DNA haplogroups) South Germans are about 1/3 Germanic, while North Germans closer to 2/3. Even after centuries of human mobility and mixing between north and south there is still a strong difference.

[Theudelinde]

Walloons and Swiss French
And nowadays people from Normandy

[Joso]

Northern Germans

[Cernunnos]

Which time I think of a Northern Italian, I think of a Blonde Nordic warrior screaming some Varg Virkenes music lyrics.

What the fuck are they doing in that list?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Austrians and other South Germans (High Germans) themselves are largely Celtic (or actually Italo-Celtic with some other Med/Southern admixtures as well) descended, in contrast to North Germans (Low Germans) who are much more Germanic than High Germans. This is visible both in autosomal DNA and also in Y-DNA haplogroups.

South German admix =/= Germanic, at least not in non-dilluted form.

celto-germanic actually, nothing italic about them
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f2/c0/82/f2c08233c440e66b42b92aade56309f0.jpg

[Proud Celt]

Which time I think of a Northern Italian, I think of a Blonde Nordic warrior screaming some Varg Virkenes music lyrics.

What the fuck are they doing in that list?

Ask that Wikipedia. Before I removed that they said that Lowland Scots, Northern Italians, Finns, Walloons... are all genetically Germanic.

[Peterski]

celto-germanic actually, nothing italic about them

They have Italic ancestry too. Modern South-West Germans can be modeled as 1/2 ancient Alemanni + 1/2 Roman-era Italians.

[Leto]

Peterski is so obsessed with the deconstruction of German(ic)s...

[CommonSense]

Czechs

[Peterski]

Peterski is so obsessed with the deconstruction of German(ic)s.

SW Germans being 1/2 Alemanni + 1/2 Roman is what Lukasz wrote in some thread.

When he averaged 50% Allemani grave 12 with 50% Italian-like Roman grave 3c (both of these are Volkerwanderung era ancient DNA samples), he got someone like modern SW Germans.

That Roman soldier was of course most likely partially of Cisalpine Gaul extraction, but also had Italic ancestry as well.

We already have many Migration Period Germanic samples by now from various tribes, and it is obvious based on this data that you cannot sustain the claim that modern South Germans are mostly Germanic.

=====

Edit:

Here is the original post:

50% Alemanni + 50% Ancient Roman = modern SW German:


For fun I divided to half and added genomes of Alemanni grave 12 and "Roman" grave 3c.

Results are pretty cool. So we can easily treat West and SW Germans as mix of Allemani and Italian like pops:)




Rheinland-Pfalz Swiss_German Baden-Württemberg Hessen Saarland Cimbri_Lessina
0.8504421 0.9365799 0.9756008 0.9879749 1.0368273 1.0878939

Walloons IT_Friuli
1.0989982 1.1141355


"distance%=0.6601"

Rheinland-Pfalz,40.2
Saarland,15.6
Hessen,7.6
IT_Trentino,7.4
IT_Friuli,4.8
FR_Corsica,2.4
IT_Marche,2.4
IT_Aosta,1.8
IT_Bolzano,1.8
NL_Friesland,1.8
IT_Tuscany,1.6
Niedersachsen,1.4
IT_Emilia-Romagna,1.2
Flemish,0.8
IT_Abruzzo,0.8
Walloons,0.8
NL_Drenthe,0.6
NL_Groningen,0.6



Original results
____________________________________

Allemani grave 12

Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 0
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 4,1
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 5,45
East_Central_Asian 0
East_Central_Euro 10,07
East_Med 0
Eastern_Euro 1,86
Fennoscandian 10,33
French 11,15
Iberian 3,59
Indo0Chinese 0
Italian 8,31
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 0
North_African 0
North_Atlantic 15,48
North_Caucasian 0
North_Sea 27,77
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 1,19
South_Chinese 0
Volga0Ural 0,21
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 0
West_Med 0

his nMonte

distance%=0.9614"

NL_Friesland,55.2
Niedersachsen,35
Oberland(western_Ost_Preussen),4.8
NL_Gelderland,4.4
NL_Drenthe,0.4
Schleswig-Holstein,0.2

__________________________________________________ _______________________________



"Roman/ Italian" grave 3c

https://s8.postimg.cc/vdxu180cz/Screen_Hunter_2474_Aug._15_09.02.jpg

"distance%=1.2655"

IT_Liguria,46.2
IT_Lazio,34.6
Asturias,3.8
IT_Sardinia,2.6
FR_Corsica,2.4
Islas_Baleares,2.4
IT_Emilia-Romagna,2
Cantabria,1.2
IT_Tuscany,1.2
La_Rioja,1
Druzes,0.6
Spanish_Gitano,0.6
Cataluna,0.4
Albanians_FYROM,0.2
Castilla,0.2
IT_Marche,0.2

[Ülev]

why I chose Germany
after a blaze killed five teenagers in the northern city of Koszalin
http://thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/400382,26-Polish-%E2%80%98escape-rooms%E2%80%99-closed-after-fire-tragedy
Berlin firefighters for example conveyed condolences to the families of the victims. The text in Polish appeared on the official Twitter of the Berlin firefighters
https://twitter.com/Berliner_Fw
https://fakty.interia.pl/deutsche-welle/news-niemcy-pytaja-o-bezpieczenstwo-swoich-escape-roomow,nId,2772595

didn't read about other neighbouring countries anything similar

[Peterski]

Alemanni warrior (grave 12) was like modern Frisians while ancient Roman soldier (grave 3c) was like modern Liguria and Lazio.

Their mixture in 50:50 proportions gives you results like modern South-West Germans.

[Peterski]

I predicted long ago (I think already in 2015 or 2016, I wrote it in some posts) that originally all Germanic people were genetically similar to modern Scandinavians and North Dutch, and that present-day variation (such as South Germans being very different than North Dutch) is the result of mixing with Non-Germanic populations.

At that time Lukasz argued with me on a Polish forum that probably genetic differences between various Germanic subgroups existed already in ancient times.

But so far the vast majority of Volkerwanderung era ancient DNA samples show that my prediction was most likely correct. Both ancient Alemanni and ancient Bajuvarii turned out to be very different than modern South-West and South Germans, and similar to modern Frisians/Scandos.

But let's wait for East Germanic samples, maybe they were different than the rest and if so, it will mean that Lukasz was partially correct.

[Dick]

Alemanni warrior (grave 12) was like modern Frisians while ancient Roman soldier (grave 3c) was like modern Liguria and Lazio.

Their mixture in 50:50 proportions gives you results like modern South-West Germans.

Interesting. Nobody questions their germanicness but everyone goes apeshit over south slavs being half Slavic

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

They have Italic ancestry too. Modern South-West Germans can be modeled as 1/2 ancient Alemanni + 1/2 Roman-era Italians.

austrians are more northern shifted than west germans. idk why west germans are so southern on K15, they are as southern as Croats.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Peterski, i get 50% Frisian on MDLP. you didn't comment on that dude ? now you mention Frisians are pure Germanics. i obviously have real germanic blood not just south german but whatever, don't really care, but it's a fact

[Peterski]

austrians are more northern shifted than west germans

That's because of their North-Eastern (Slavic) admixture. Look for example at results of this Austrian user, Noricum:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187622-Post-your-DNA-Land-ancestry-composion-results&p=3889003&viewfull=1#post3889003

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h149/Christian_Unterberger/dnaland_zpstokddvoq.jpg

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

That's because of their North-Eastern (Slavic) admixture. Look for example at results of this Austrian user, Noricum:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187622-Post-your-DNA-Land-ancestry-composion-results&p=3889003&viewfull=1#post3889003

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h149/Christian_Unterberger/dnaland_zpstokddvoq.jpg

on that he's more slavic than me lol. we get similar NW admixture though. anyway he's korošec, carinthia is most slavic influenced part of austria because caranthnian slavs (slovenes) settled there.
half of that region belong to slovenia other half to austria and population is very mixed

I'm not from Carinthia though but from Carniola. and some of my Slovene-speaking ancestors had German family names, it's completely normal there. Probably some of his German-speaking ancestors had Slovenian family names.

[Peterski]

anyway he's korošec

He is from Carinthia but ethnically German, not Slovene. And he has only Germanic surnames in his family tree (based on what he told me).


carinthia is most slavic influenced part of austria because caranthnian slavs (slovnes) settled there.

All of Eastern and Central Austria was settled by Slavs, not just Carinthia. Only Western Austria (such as Tyrol) was not settled by Slavs.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

He is from Carinthia but ethnically German, not Slovene. And he has only Germanic surnames in his family tree (based on what he told me).

All of Eastern and Central Austria was settled by Slavs, not just Carinthia. Only Western Austria (such as Tyrol) was not settled by Slavs.

DNA Land is not that reliable imo. I show me big Balkan admixture and i get it nowhere else, not on gedmatch nor on Ancestry and I don't plot close to balkan people at all

[Peterski]

Here is what Noricum told me when I asked him if he is a Carinthian Slovene:

"No, I'm not a Carinthian Slovene. I sure turn out very Slavic in these tests and I very likely have a lot of (Alpine) Slavic ancestry further back. But I do not speak Slovene or any Slovene local Carinthian dialect nor do I have any known ancestors with Slovene surnames. Koroških just means Carinthian in slovene language, could be ethnic German or ethnic Slovene. And all my known ancestors are German-speakers from Carinthia and Styria."


DNA Land is not that reliable imo.

Well, his GEDmatch results are equally Slavic-shifted.


show me big Balkan admixture

Polish people also score some Balkan in DNA Land.

[Mingle]

All of Eastern and Central Austria was settled by Slavs, not just Carinthia. Only Western Austria (such as Tyrol) was not settled by Slavs.

Which part of Austria does Slavic DNA peak in? I'd guess Carinthia?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Which part of Austria does Slavic DNA peak in? I'd guess Carinthia?

Carinthia, Styria and Burgerland i think

[Mingle]

Carinthia, Styria and Burgerland i thinkIn that order as well probably.

[Peterski]

Which part of Austria does Slavic DNA peak in? I'd guess Carinthia?

Probably Styria, considering that one study found 42.9% of R1a haplogroup among male inhabitants of Graz.

=====

Here you can find some maps showing original extent of Slovene ethnic territory in the Early Middle Ages:

http://eucbeniki.sio.si/slo1/2167/index5.html

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P10/index.html

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg

http://eucbeniki.sio.si/slo1/2167/alpskiSlovani2.jpg

Slavic toponyms in Austria:

http://imgfrm.index.hu/imgfrm/8/7/4/1/BIG_0008378741.jpg


In that order as well probably.

First Styria, then Carinthia IMO. Austrians from Graz (a Slavic toponym, BTW) have more R1a than Slovenes.

[Leto]

Austrians are truly Central European. Also, it's important to note that most Austrians are from Central and Eastern Austria. This map shows the population of each state of Austria according to the 1961 census, i.e. before the start of the mass migration flood.

https://i.ibb.co/N6ZZv6w/sterreich-1961.png

[Peterski]

https://i.ibb.co/N6ZZv6w/sterreich-1961.png

East Tirol has some Slavic admixture too, but only in areas with Slavic toponyms (Isel, lower Drau, Defereggen, Virgen, and Kals valley):

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2uyrip5.jpg

^^^
Region B contains areas with Slavic toponyms (red colour) and 16% of R1a, while Region A has no Slavic toponyms and no R1a, quote:

"East Tyrol was divided into two regions of former Romance (Puster, Gail, and Villgraten valley; region A) and Slavic (Isel, lower Drau, Defereggen, Virgen, and Kals valley; region B) main settlement (Fig. 2). (...) R-M17 [R1a] was completely absent in the East Tyrolean sub-sample from region A [formerly Romance area], but made up to 16% in region B [formerly Slavic area]. This result remained practically unchanged when assigning the probands to their respective fathers' or grandfathers' places of birth/residence (Fig. 3)."


https://i.ibb.co/N6ZZv6w/sterreich-1961.png

Least Slavic-admixed regions are:

Vorarlberg, Tirol, Salzburg and Oberoesterreich

Most Slavic-admixed regions are:

Steiermark, Kärnten, Burgenland, Niederösterreich

Ost Tirol is partly Slavic-admixed (see above).

[Theudelinde]

Icelandic people

Aren't they Germanic?

[Teutonski]

Aren't they Germanic?

I misread the question

[Joso]

Northern Italians. They are also very Celtic.