I reckon I have to take my leave...

[Barreldriver]

I got some new information for my genealogy and it's bad bad bad news, turns my great great great great great great great grandfather was half Dutch half Injun name Mag the Greyhorse Herrman. Is papaw was from Rotterdam and didn't take a wife with him, so he boned some savage woman by the forged name of Margaret Choulyn. So I reckon that Canadian and that Irish/Aussie guy Brian Foley or whatever got their effin' wish.

That makes me in violation of rule #2 because I am not 100% European, I am 99.8% European blood(if you do the math it would make me 1/512 taint, which is approx .0020, or .2%) Mag being 1/2, next child 1/4, next child 1/8, next child 1/16, next child 1/32, next child 1/64, next child 1/128, next child 1/256, then to me 1/512.


So there bet those two will be happy about the taint in the American eh, fuckin' buggar. Mother of hell, I was on a damn roll too, had it all back to Europe, but that one Choulyn line, couldn't pin it, and boom the fucking state of Tennessee throw's this in my face. Mother of hells bells. BLAAAAAAAAARGHHH! This is the worst fucking timing! Especially when I was personally advocating that not all American's of Colonial stock are mixed to a degree, it makes my credibility drop to shit minus a terd. God damn it. Genealogy is a bitch times hell.

Well rant being over, thanks for the warm welcome and the short lived good time here, but as the rules say, only 100% European, and 99.8% does not equal 100%.

[Baron Samedi]

Ummmm.... No one in the States is 100% anything, generally. I certainly am not.

You are still pred. Euro in descent, no need to be leaving here.

[Barreldriver]

Ummmm.... No one in the States is 100% anything, generally. I certainly am not.

You are still pred. Euro in descent, no need to be leaving here.

Why does the rules say 100%? Christ! I'm confused as hell. Bad time to have run out of whiskey.

[Lady L]

Whats Injun..?

* O Hush' I'm sure you are still welcomed here * :wink

[coldielox]

Whats Injun..?

* O Hush' I'm sure you are still welcomed here * :wink

if im not mistaken its indian..

[Barreldriver]

Whats Injun..?

* O Hush' I'm sure you are still welcomed here * :wink

It also poses a religious issue, when I began studying Germanic polytheism I got wrapped up in the whole Varg Vikernes thing for a while, and my view in regards to any religion is highly distorted because I do not know what is properly cited and the sort, well Varg's take on the Germanic polytheism is that only people of 100% European ancestry could be honored in the after life, the rest doomed to a fate with Hel and to fight on the side of the Giants during Ragnarok, and if Varg's interpretation is true, that means during the end of all days I'm destined to be on the side of chaos and against the honored Aesir.

[Taheen]

I don't think 1/512 of anything is the real problematic issue faced today for European descendant populations anywhere.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes- and ? Then we can count most Americans, a lot of Afrikaners and (God knows) a lot of Europeans too.

Hush, mate. You are staying with us.

[Barreldriver]

My main issue now then is with the religious debate, is Varg Vikernes' word moot? Or does it stand that only the pure enter Valhalla?

[stormlord]

It also poses a religious issue, when I began studying Germanic polytheism I got wrapped up in the whole Varg Vikernes thing for a while, and my view in regards to any religion is highly distorted because I do not know what is properly cited and the sort, well Varg's take on the Germanic polytheism is that only people of 100% European ancestry could be honored in the after life, the rest doomed to a fate with Hel and to fight on the side of the Giants during Ragnarok, and if Varg's interpretation is true, that means during the end of all days I'm destined to be on the side of chaos and against the honored Aesir.

Well, if you believe basic evolutionary theory then we almost certainly all came from Africa, so noone is literally 100% European.

[Loki]

Our rules say "full European descent". What does this mean in practice?

First of all, how do we know all members here are of 100% European descent? It's kinda hard to know on an internet platform. And even so, without a massive genealogical search and genetic test, no-one can be sure of 100%, not even non-colonial Europeans.

Secondly, what do we prefer having:

1. Someone who is honest about a trace colonial admixture, that is effectively bred out by many generations, and is of European culture and orientation, allegiance?

2. Someone who claims to be 100% European, yet hides a more recent admixture in the closet?

I personally prefer the honest approach of 1).

Discuss. :coffee:

[Baron Samedi]

Well, then by all means I should leave this place too! *swoons*

I mean shit boy, at least you aint part Heebro like I am....

[Baron Samedi]

It also poses a religious issue, when I began studying Germanic polytheism I got wrapped up in the whole Varg Vikernes thing for a while, and my view in regards to any religion is highly distorted because I do not know what is properly cited and the sort, well Varg's take on the Germanic polytheism is that only people of 100% European ancestry could be honored in the after life, the rest doomed to a fate with Hel and to fight on the side of the Giants during Ragnarok, and if Varg's interpretation is true, that means during the end of all days I'm destined to be on the side of chaos and against the honored Aesir.

Yeah..... This brings me back.... I used to be this way.

STOP WORRYING.

If you have the heritage, and you care about the ways of those particular ancestors, go with the Gods dude!

And Varg is a moron.

[Barreldriver]

Our rules say "full European descent". What does this mean in practice?

First of all, how do we know all members here are of 100% European descent? It's kinda hard to know on an internet platform.

Secondly, what do we prefer having:

1. Someone who is honest about a trace colonial admixture, that is effectively bred out by many generations, and is of European culture and orientation, allegiance?

2. Someone who claims to be 100% European, yet hides a more recent admixture in the closet?

I personally prefer the honest approach of 1).

Discuss. :coffee

Makes sense, I'd be damned if I claimed any Injun "heritage" I see it that heritage does not equal ancestry, ancestry is your genealogy, heritage is what you get/inherit from your genealogy and I inherited an offshoot of Colonial Era British culture, a white culture, and I guess the majority wins in all conflicts and 99.8 does out number .2 by a lot.

[Baron Samedi]

My main issue now then is with the religious debate, is Varg Vikernes' word moot? Or does it stand that only the pure enter Valhalla?

Varg is NOT the ultimate word on Germanic heathenry.... Please do not think such drivel.

[Lady L]

It also poses a religious issue, when I began studying Germanic polytheism I got wrapped up in the whole Varg Vikernes thing for a while, and my view in regards to any religion is highly distorted because I do not know what is properly cited and the sort, well Varg's take on the Germanic polytheism is that only people of 100% European ancestry could be honored in the after life, the rest doomed to a fate with Hel and to fight on the side of the Giants during Ragnarok, and if Varg's interpretation is true, that means during the end of all days I'm destined to be on the side of chaos and against the honored Aesir.

I know what you mean " what is properly cited and the sort " ...

So with that it leaves an opening to the unknown right...no need to hang your head yet ....:wink

When we are dealing with these kind of issues I think the thing to keep in mind is what you do and what you believe are all you can control in your life...

The rest is unknown no matter what your made up of ...for everyone.

[Barreldriver]

Varg is NOT the ultimate word on Germanic heathenry.... Please do not think such drivel.

That was just one example, his take on it was the first example I ever read, and the one I remember most clear. I wasn't particularily fond of it, but I'm a newb, I've spent most of my life without religious orientation because of my foul experieces with Chrisitian faiths. New to the whole religion concept, and new to Germanic heathenry.

[Absinthe]

A 1/512 non-European descent? :eek: Go away, you mongrel!!! :grumpy:

Seriously, if this isn't a joke.....don't leave!! We like you already :)

[Ulf]

Ummmm.... No one in the States is 100% anything, generally. I certainly am not.

You are still pred. Euro in descent, no need to be leaving here.

I'm 100% Grade A Pasteurized Homogenized Certified Deitsch. So nyah. :P :cool:

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm 100% Grade A Pasteurized Homogenized Certified Deitsch. So nyah. :P :cool:
Post your entire records from the moment your ancestors came off the boat :D

[Barreldriver]

A 1/512 non-European descent? :eek: Go away, you mongrel!!! :grumpy:

Seriously, if this isn't a joke.....don't leave!! We like you already :)

And I reckon if these vids are correct, http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2003&highlight=americans, then it's not that big of a deal, because my Injun ancestor was thought to be white at first glance, could barely tell according to the descriptions, he had an active role in the American Revolution, acted as a peacekeeper between Injuns and the Colonials.

[Absinthe]

I'm thinking of going to the doc and asking for a pedigree that says "100% bitch" :D

[Ulf]

Post your entire records from the moment your ancestors came off the boat :D

I can if you wish. ;)

[Barreldriver]

I'm 100% Grade A Pasteurized Homogenized Certified Deitsch. So nyah. :P :cool:

Speaking of Deitsch you familiar with the name Viehdorfer? I'm doing some research on my ma's kin and the Miller/Viehdorfer line is buggerin' me, the Viehdorfer's are traced back to Germany, and possibly Austria since there's a place in Austria named Viehdorf, and I did a surname origin thing and it seems to be most prominent within Deitsch communities.

[The Lawspeaker]

:eek: Interesting. I have always wanted to see records of smaller groups in the U.S (like the Deitsch). So please do.
They are the group that I know very little about.

[Barreldriver]

I'm thinking of going to the doc and asking for a pedigree that says "100% bitch" :D

lol that would be hilarious. lol Wonder how the doc'll react.

[Ulf]

Speaking of Deitsch you familiar with the name Viehdorfer? I'm doing some research on my ma's kin and the Miller/Viehdorfer line is buggerin' me, the Viehdorfer's are traced back to Germany, and possibly Austria since there's a place in Austria named Viehdorf, and I did a surname origin thing and it seems to be most prominent within Deitsch communities.

If they came from Austria, probably not Deitsch, more likely a forty-eighter. Most Deitsch arrived here before the Revolutionary War. Possibly they may have married into the Deitsch.

If you know when/where they landed and settled I could be of more use.

[Barreldriver]

If they came from Austria, probably not Deitsch, more likely a forty-eighter. Most Deitsch arrived here before the Revolutionary War. Possibly they may have married into the Deitsch.

If you know when/where they landed and settled I could be of more use.

Her family came here around the 1840's. The first Viehdorfer American in my family was born in Germany around 1846 then came to Pennsylvania and died. Then James A.B. Miller's line from Pennsylvania married into the Viehdorfer line, the Miller line from what I've been told by my ma's family were Deitsch but I cannot prove it yet.

[Skandi]

Don't worry about that small bit, seems we need a thread on what % admixture is allowed! Personally my great, great, great grandmother is from somewhere near Klaipeda, before marrying a Swede but I ignore this as it's way to small to mention when people ask about my ancestry. (not that there's anything wrong with that neck of the woods.)

[Ulf]

Her family came here around the 1840's. The first Viehdorfer American in my family was born in Germany around 1846 then came to Pennsylvania and died.

Not Deitsch, but it would not have been hard to have been assimilated into our great ranks! :D

My first 'American' Ancestor was born in Grosshöchstetten, Switzerland in 1706, came to America in 1732 from Rotterdam aboard the ship Samuel, thanks to the awesome Dutch Mennonites freeing them from prison, and died in Bucks County, PA on July 9th 1772.

By the time your ancestors had arrived, unless they spoke Plattdeutsch, would have had a little difficulty understanding one another.

[Barreldriver]

Not Deitsch, but it would not have been hard to have been assimilated into our great ranks! :D

My first 'American' Ancestor was born in Grosshöchstetten, Switzerland in 1706, came to America in 1732 from Rotterdam aboard the ship Samuel, thanks to the awesome Dutch Mennonites freeing them from prison, and died in Bucks County, PA on July 9th 1772.

By the time your ancestors had arrived, unless they spoke Plattdeutsch, would have had a little difficulty understanding one another.

You said Bucks county? I thinkt that's where my Miller line is from, and that's who the Viehdorfer's married into. My Miller line went from PA to WV to Ohio. Weird travels I know.

[Ulf]

You said Bucks county? I thinkt that's where my Miller line is from, and that's who the Viehdorfer's married into.

Find out where your Miller line is from, or go up to one of them and say 'Kannscht du Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch schwetzer?' Then you'll have your answer.

[Barreldriver]

Find out where your Miller line is from, or go up to one of them and say 'Kannscht du Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch schwetzer?' Then you'll have your answer.


I don't think it was Bucks Co. Pretty sure it's Centre Co. PA. Still searching, it's hard for this line since #1 my grandfather is dead #2 he divorced my grandmother early on and sort of ditched out on the family, never got to communicate with him except maybe twice.

[Ulf]

I don't think it was Bucks Co. Pretty sure it's Centre Co. PA. Still searching, it's hard for this line since #1 my grandfather is dead #2 he divorced my grandmother early on and sort of ditched out on the family, never got to communicate with him except maybe twice.

Centre County has/had no significant Deitsch population that I am aware of, though another possiblity is that they moved there from here, not unheard of, though we don't seem to like being too far from our own kind.

Centre County:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Map_of_Pennsylvania_highlighting_Centre_County.svg/800px-Map_of_Pennsylvania_highlighting_Centre_County.svg .png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Pennsylvania_German_distribution.png
Blue: The counties with the highest proportion of Pennsylvania German speakers.
Red: The counties with the highest number of Pennsylvania German speakers.

The farthest right clump of red is where my ancestors first settled, and we have remained since.

[Barreldriver]

Centre County has/had no significant Deitsch population that I am aware of, though another possiblity is that they moved there from here, not unheard of, though we don't seem to like being too far from our own kind.

Centre County:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Map_of_Pennsylvania_highlighting_Centre_County.svg/800px-Map_of_Pennsylvania_highlighting_Centre_County.svg .png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Pennsylvania_German_distribution.png
Blue: The counties with the highest proportion of Pennsylvania German speakers.
Red: The counties with the highest number of Pennsylvania German speakers.

The farthest right clump of red is where my ancestors first settled, and we have remained since.

Cool. I'm still researching the line, I had thought at one point there was a tie with another Miller family descended from Johan Michael Muller from Switzerland, but I can't confirm it either. My Miller line is driving me nuts.

[Ulf]

Cool. I'm still researching the line, I had thought at one point there was a tie with another Miller family descended from Johan Michael Muller from Switzerland, but I can't confirm it either. My Miller line is driving me nuts.

I've got a few Millers and one Mueller in my tree somewhere, though I do not think they're my direct ancestors.

[Barreldriver]

I've got a few Millers and one Mueller in my tree somewhere, though I do not think they're my direct ancestors.

Any of them aquainted with these names: James A.B. Miller, David Lewis Miller Sr, and David Lewis Miller Jr.? If you can't tell I'm getting desparate now lol. I hate brick walls in genealogy.

[Ulf]

Any of them aquainted with these names: James A.B. Miller, David Lewis Miller Sr, and David Lewis Miller Jr.? If you can't tell I'm getting desparate now lol. I hate brick walls in genealogy.

Seem to all be women except for a Richard L. Miller.

[Barreldriver]

Seem to all be women except for a Richard L. Miller.

What does the L. stand for?

[Ulf]

What does the L. stand for?

Doesn't say. :mad:

[Psychonaut]

Don't worry about that small bit, seems we need a thread on what % admixture is allowed! Personally my great, great, great grandmother is from somewhere near Klaipeda, before marrying a Swede but I ignore this as it's way to small to mention when people ask about my ancestry. (not that there's anything wrong with that neck of the woods.)

Exactly. I'm 1/128 Scot, but I don't stay up at night crying about it. ;)

[Baron Samedi]

Exactly. I'm 1/128 Scot, but I don't stay up at night crying about it. ;)

Norman-Scot though, amirite?

...........

[Psychonaut]

Norman-Scot though, amirite?

...........

Negs bro. Much to my dismay (:D) there's a fellow by the name of William Moore (perhaps the most Scottish name ever) from West Virginia in my genealogy. Moore comes from Muir, which is quite the Celtic surname.

[Baron Samedi]

Negs bro. Much to my dismay (:D) there's a fellow by the name of William Moore (perhaps the most Scottish name ever) from West Virginia in my genealogy. Moore comes from Muir, which is quite the Celtic surname.

Well oh noes, dude!

The horror! Truly! :D

[Barreldriver]

How's about O'Mooney, McConnell, McCormack, Galey, Mullins, Whiteside(Doesn't seem very Irish to me, but heck that's where they are from), Ferrell, O'Neill, oh god.

[SPQR]

My main issue now then is with the religious debate, is Varg Vikernes' word moot? Or does it stand that only the pure enter Valhalla?

Dude Varg's a loon.. take anything you read from that man with a grain of salt, you cant trust the opinions of a man who's been locked away for so long.

But anyway I don't think anyone could call you a coloured, I'm sure you're safe :thumbs up

[Brynhild]

Rap, if you were to believe everything Varg Vikernes raves on about, the majority of Europeans wouldn't qualify for the afterlife on the basis of having brown eyes! Now come on, the Heathen texts certainly aren't that discriminatory. Please read the Eddas and make up your own mind, because everyone's opinion on this will always be different.

Now for the 1/512 Indian mix. That's no biggie. On my father's side, it was well known at one stage that Malta was occupied by Arabs - along with countless others since that time. That doesn't make me an Arab, not one bit! I've posted plenty of pics on this forum that would indicate otherwise, and my posts also indicate a deep desire to preserve my Celto/Germanic heritage (on his side, we also have German blood that can be traced back these last 200 years :))

As Loki has already pointed out, this is the Internet, and we can only take a person's word for it how honest you are. Your reaction to all of this certainly seems genuine, but stop worrying! We like having you around! :thumb001:

[Electronic God-Man]

:eek: Interesting. I have always wanted to see records of smaller groups in the U.S (like the Deitsch). So please do.
They are the group that I know very little about.

You mean the genealogical records?

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=hunsi3&id=I000053 This is just a huge database of the people descended from my one Deitsch ancestor.

Notes for Johann Georg Huntzinger:


Notes:
1. John R. Hunsinger did extensive research on the origin of Johann Georg in Germany, including several trips to Germany to research him and provided the following information; There is a small town in Germany, called Widdern, which was also the home of a George Michael Teubert / Deibert. George was born in 1718, married in 1743, and emigrated to PA in 1753 and settled in the same area as Johann Georg. Here in PA, he had a daughter, Anna Maria, born in 1755, that married John George's first born son, John George 2nd. It is too much of a coincidence that they didn't know each other back in Germany. Based on these facts that J.R. uncovered in Widdern, Germany it pretty much establishes the birth and marriage information on Johann Georg Huntzinger.

2. Johann & Maria had 5 children born at Widdern and it is not known if the daughters survived, came to America with the father or remained behind with other family members. Johann came to America on the ship Jacob which sailed from Amsterdam, Holland. The captain was Adolph Degrove and the ship carried 249 Palatinate Germans from Swabia, Wirtemberg and Darmstadt, Germany. The voyage to America was probably as bad as that described in the Oxford History of the American People. Chapter X quotes Gottlieb Mittelberger who described his voyage in 1750. "Bad drinking water, putrid salt meat, excessive heat and crowding, lice so thick they could be scraped off the body, seas so rough that the hatches were battened down and everyone vomiting in the foul air. Children under seven years of age rarely survived the voyage. Passengers succumbed to dysentery, typhus, cankers and mouth rot. On his ship no fewer than 32 died."

3. The ship docked in Philadelphia, PA on October 2, 1749. His wife may have been with him but she was not listed on the passenger rolls as was the custom at that time. Johann appears on list 140C at the State House at Philadelphia, PA that on Monday the 2nd October, 1749 did take the usual Oaths to the Government. (This appears in PA German Pioneers, vol. 1, by Strassburger.) He must have moved up into Brunswick Township, Berks county (Schuylkill County was not formed until 1811). Soon after his arrival in 1749, he bought land from the Indians "Over the Blue Mountain" per a Schuylkill County historical publication. More likely, he bought his land from Thomas and Richard Penn, who had in fact bought the land from the Indians.


4. He was a taxpayer residing "over the mountain" in the tax lists of Berks County in 1754. In 1768, Georg petitioned for a survey on a tract of land in what became Manheim Township, Schuykill County. The Racoon Creek runs through the property. It adjoined the lands of George Zimmerman, Matthias Best, and other lands of his own. He had another warrant for land in that township in 1775. He acquired large tracts of land in the vicinity of Drehersville, along the Little Schuylkill river.

5. Georg was among the early members of Zion Lutheran, "Red Church" in Orwigsburg and likely was one of those who helped to rebuild it after it had been burned by the Indians in 1758. He served as a deacon of the congregation. On 3 Decmeber, 1770, the new Church structure was rededicated by the Reverend Daniel Schumacher. Among the six signatures to the declaration were Georg Huntzinger, and Georg Michael Deauber, his son Georg's future father-in-law. Rev. Schumacher was an itinerant Lutheran Pastor who served much of what is now Berks, Schuykill and Lehigh counties. The name " Red Church" comes from the fact that the men had used a red clay mortar mixture to build the stone Church.

6. On 1 May, 1777 George and his two sons signed the Oath of Allegiance before Justice Spyker.


7. A George Huntzinger appears on the tax records of Brunswick Township in 1771 and 1772, but not 1773. On 19 October, 17 73, George the elder granted a deed for a tract of 250 acres to his son Georg. A George reappears in 1774, and it is not possible to distinquish whether it was the father or the son. Therefore, it is possible that the elder George died soon after the conveyance, or in fact, it may have been as the result of his death. The name Johann Georg Huntzinger does not appear on any of the published tax records for the ensuing years and it is possible he died about 16 years after his arrival in America. His date of death and where he is buried is unknown.


and his son (the one I descend from) Bernhardt Jurg Huntzinger:


Notes:
1. He died on 6 February 1832, according to his tombstone at Trinity Cemetery at Mountain Grove, Black Creek Township, Luzerne County. A death notice appeared in Die Stimme Des Volks...a German language newspaper printed at Orwigsburg, Schuylkill Co., PA. Die Stimme reported in the March 13, 1832 issue that he died "last of January" also giving his age as 78 years 9 months, 87 grandchildren and 67 great-grandchildren. He was a member of the 8th Class of the Berks County Militia in 1780. Baptized on Ascension Day along with Anna Margaretha Reich. Bernard was among a list of those confirmed at Zion Red Church at Brunswick Township in 1771. He appears on Military Muster rolls, the 1779 Septennial Census, and tax records at Brunswick until about 1784. He must have moved about 1785 to Northumberland County for he obtained a Warrant in 1785 for land in what was then Northumberland County, which later went through many Township and County line changes.

2. In the 1790 census of Northumberland County, page 49, Bernard is listed as head of household with 1 free white male over age 16 (including head of household), 5 free white males under age 16 and 4 free white females (including head of household).

3. In the 1800 US Census, Bernard and his son, George, appear at Mifflin Township, Northumberland County. Bernard is listed on page 692 as head of household with 3 free white males under age 10, 1 free white male age 10 through 15, 2 free white males ages 16 through 25 and 1 free white male age 45 and over.

4. In the 1810 census of Mifflin Twp., Northumberland Co, page 231 Bernard is head of household with 2 free white males under 10, 1 free white male age 10 through 15, 1 free white male age 16 through 25, 1 free white male 45 and over along with 1 free white female age 16 through 25 and 1 free white female age 45 and over. His son Berhard Jr. is either living with him or next to him.

5. By 1820 he has moved to Sugarloaf Twp. Luzerne, PA, where he appears on that census on page 258. He is listed as head of household with 1 free white male of 45 and upwards (including head of household), 2 free white females between ages 10 and under 16 and one free white female of age 45 and upward.

6 In the 1830 census of Sugarloaf Twp., Luzerne Co., PA, page 456 he appears as one free white male of age of 70 and under eighty and his wife as 1 free white female of age 50 and under 60.

7. In June of 1817, Bernard obtained a patent for approximately 314 acres of land originally Warranted to Andrew McCalley in 1775, which appears on connected Warrantee Maps of what is now Black Creek Township, Luzerne County. It is not known by the writer if Bernard and his family moved directly there at the time that they left Brunswick Township. Examination of real estate transfers, the 1798 Glass Tax, and other civil records could perhaps answer the question. Beers 1815 History of Columbia and Montour Counties includes the name of "George" Huntzinger among early [c1782] residents in the area of the town of Catawissa. Beer's sources are not specified, and it is not clear that there is any connection to this family. They also appear on tax lists for then Mifflin Township of Northumberland County in 1808, when Bernard was assessed for a house, barn and land. The location was identified as "near George DRESHER". Bernard's son was on the assessment for a cabin and land at Black Creek. Bernard married Eva Margaretha. Eva Margaretha was born about 1755 and died in 1818. She is also buried at Mountain Grove, PA.

8. In the Early Pastoral Acts pertaining to Brunswick Twp. inhabitants of Zion Red Church and Vicinity of Brunswick Twp., Berks Co., PA. by Richard Turnbach lists baptism; WURTZ, Eva Margaretha b 1 Nov 1771 d/o Christian and Maria Magdalena, bp 24 Nov 1771; Sp: Jurg HUNTZINGER and Maria Margaretha REICH, single. This pretty much establishes Eva's maiden name as being Reich since they were not married until abt 1774.

9. Names of children from records of petition to settle estate in 183?

10. On Oct. 2, 1994, the 145th anniversary of the arrival Johann Jurg Huntzinger, the immigrant, a bronze plaque was placed on the grave of Bernard declaring him an American Patriot for his part in the Revolutionary War. (At the time the plaque was installed, it was believed he was born in 1749 and this year appears on the plaque in error. This was later corrrected by putting a small plate with the correct date over the incorrect date.)


11. All descendants are eligible for membership in the Sons of the American Revolution or the Daughters of the American Revolution.


Or did you mean more generally the history of the PA Dutch?

[Frigga]

Don't stress matters. My maternal grandmother's great grandmother was full blooded Indian. We think from the Delaware tribe. There are no documents, as the belief goes that it was a tribal wedding. Native Americans were made to look down upon their culture back then, so once she married a white man, no more references to it. And on my paternal side, there are traces of German Jewish. I don't know how strong. But, even though I like knowing what my heritage is, what I identify with the most, is my Northern European heritage. I don't call on the Christian god, or on the deities of the Native American. The first I don't like, and the second, I don't know enough about. But, I like being an Odinist, and I feel that the Gods and Goddesses like me, and listen to me. And I think that they are not going to shun me for that small part of me that is not European. One of my ancestors, is John Adams. Not a direct ancestor. But he's still in the family tree. I'm pretty proud of that. :)

[Osweo]

Muir, which is quite the Celtic surname.
The HELL it is, Boy! :mad:
It's just an ultra northern pronunciation of the English word moor! A high heathy waste.
moor (n.)
"waste ground," O.E. mor "swamp," from P.Gmc. *mora- (cf. O.S., M.Du. Du. moer "swamp," O.H.G. muor "swamp," also "sea," O.N. mörr "moorland," marr "sea"), perhaps related to mere (2), or from base *mer- "to die," hence "dead land."
You don't find the word in the Gaelic areas whatsoever (unless there are some recently coined ones). Look to the Angles of Northumbria for this one, Kinsman! :thumb001:

[Loyalist]

One tainted ancestral line accounting for 1/512 of your lineage, stretching back to the early to mid 18th century, is hardly consequential today. Even by Waffen-SS standards, non-Aryan ancestry became irrelevant between 1750 to 1800, depending on where you were trying to enlist. Genes can be bred out, and I doubt something so remote would even show up on a DNA test by this point. That goes without taking into consideration that, physically, you show absolutely no non-European influence.

Additionally, did you come across something that set this Amerindian forbear in stone? I found this in a quick RootsWeb search:


Margeret supposedly was Cherokee. The record of the Peaked Mountain Church, p. 469, lists her surname as "Choulyn" with a question mark following. Nothing more is known of her. Mary Tennessee (Carmack) Brown and family, as well as numerous other descendants, claim Cherokee ancestry through Peter and Margaret's son, Charles, in the Guion Miller Roll of 1906. The applications were rejected, as were most of the other Overton County applications. The rejections were for lack of proof, with the grounds being that Charles Harmon was never enrolled following the treaty of 1835. The purpose of the Guion Miller Roll was to locate persons who could prove descendancy of a signitor of the treaty of 1835 or 1846, or whose ancestors were listed on the Eastern Cherokee Roll taken in 1851. Many of the Eastern Cherokee descendants applications under the Guion Miller Roll were rejected because their ancestors had refused to sign treaties or enroll with the government for fear of being forced from their homeland. Thus, many descendants could not prove their Cherokee ancestry and their applications were rejected for the government funds appropriated by the Act of Congress in favor of the Eastern Cherokees.

Source (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:2668634&id=I1000)

That looks fairly dubious to me. Once again, I'll relate a personal experience on the matter. An ancestor of mine in a New Netherland Dutch line was said to have had an Indian mother. This is a rather prominent family of the era, and that was generally accepted as accurate in the genealogical community. It turned out that the man in question was born in Norway, and later came to New Amsterdam and married into the Dutch community. Hence no Indians, despite the allegations which came about as a result of a single individual mis-transcribing some records decades ago.

So there you go; irrelevant as it may be in any case, don't jump to conclusions based off of evidence of a questionable nature.

[Barreldriver]

One tainted ancestral line accounting for 1/512 of your lineage, stretching back to the early to mid 18th century, is hardly consequential today. Even by Waffen-SS standards, non-Aryan ancestry became irrelevant between 1750 to 1800, depending on where you were trying to enlist. Genes can be bred out, and I doubt something so remote would even show up on a DNA test by this point. That goes without taking into consideration that, physically, you show absolutely no non-European influence.

Additionally, did you come across something that set this Amerindian forbear in stone? I found this in a quick RootsWeb search:



Source (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:2668634&id=I1000)

That looks fairly dubious to me. Once again, I'll relate a personal experience on the matter. An ancestor of mine in a New Netherland Dutch line was said to have had an Indian mother. This is a rather prominent family of the era, and that was generally accepted as accurate in the genealogical community. It turned out that the man in question was born in Norway, and later came to New Amsterdam and married into the Dutch community. Hence no Indians, despite the allegations which came about as a result of a single individual mis-transcribing some records decades ago.

So there you go; irrelevant as it may be in any case, don't jump to conclusions based off of evidence of a questionable nature.

Coolio, I just got worked up over the matter because of a few other forums where the same member(same person on each forum), insisted that I looked exotic and there had to be foreign blood. Let it get to my head and mess around a bit up there, I've pretty much concluded the feller was a nutter, and have quit listening to anything he posts in regards to myself.

[Psychonaut]

The HELL it is, Boy! :mad:
It's just an ultra northern pronunciation of the English word moor! A high heathy waste.
moor (n.)
"waste ground," O.E. mor "swamp," from P.Gmc. *mora- (cf. O.S., M.Du. Du. moer "swamp," O.H.G. muor "swamp," also "sea," O.N. mörr "moorland," marr "sea"), perhaps related to mere (2), or from base *mer- "to die," hence "dead land."
You don't find the word in the Gaelic areas whatsoever (unless there are some recently coined ones). Look to the Angles of Northumbria for this one, Kinsman! :thumb001:

Oh my word, there is a God and his name is Oswiu!

That means I've got less of those filthy Celtic genes :D

[Loyalist]

Oh my word, there is a God and his name is Oswiu!

That means I've got less of those filthy Celtic genes :D

Don't be so sure; there's a Moore in my lineage... from Wales! :laugh:

[Barreldriver]

Yorkshire beats all! lol j/k I really couldn't say that, never been there, want to though and visit where my family used to live.

[Osweo]

Oh my word, there is a God and his name is Oswiu!

That means I've got less of those filthy Celtic genes :D
We'll skip over the fact that this Oswiu took the name of his more famous predecessor exactly FOR the fact that he was a fluent Gaelic speaker, and had fathered royal sons on both Irish and Welsh princesses... :p

What county was this Muir from, though? There's still a high risk that we're dealing with a Pict or Gael Anglicised only in speech... :eek:

[Psychonaut]

Don't be so sure; there's a Moore in my lineage... from Wales! :laugh:

Dash it all! I've now discovered the Devil: Loyalist

[Psychonaut]

We'll skip over the fact that this Oswiu took the name of his more famous predecessor exactly FOR the fact that he was a fluent Gaelic speaker, and had fathered royal sons on both Irish and Welsh princesses... :p

What county was this Muir from, though? There's still a high risk that we're dealing with a Pict or Gael Anglicised only in speech... :eek:

Oh, I've no idea where in Britain he was from, his line dead ends somewhere between the Revolution and the War of 1812. At that point there are entirely too many fellows in his county by the name of William Moore for me to be sure which documents are referring to which one.

EDIT: I meant county, not country. There are something like a dozen guys in the same county in West Virginia named William Moore.

[Treffie]

Don't be so sure; there's a Moore in my lineage... from Wales! :laugh:


Yay! Welcome to the tribe, fellow, smelly Celt!:thumb001:

[Loyalist]

Yorkshire beats all! lol j/k I really couldn't say that, never been there, want to though and visit where my family used to live.

Everyone knows Shropshire is superior to Yorkshire and the rest of it. ;) It's really a nice region, though, and York itself is a great city. I'd recommend steering clear of Leeds, Sheffield, and Hull (you won't be missing out on anything anyway). There's a lot of interesting towns, historic sites, and of course your ancestral home to see.


Yay! Welcome to the tribe, fellow, smelly Celt!:thumb001:

Diolch i chi. :D

[Osweo]

Everyone knows Shropshire is superior to Yorkshire and the rest of it. ;)
Didn't superior originally mean 'above' - if your ancestors were from there, Loyalist, then I'm wondering - are you as ill-suited to the term 'higher' as the current Salopians? They're TINY! :p I was in Shrewsbury a few months ago, and I towered above them all, and I'm only six foot! :D They're Welshers, the lot of em...
I saw a beautiful girl though. In a shoe shop there. Ee, it's not that often that I'm so captivated, I've been around a lot and seen all types, but this one was lovely. Shortish brunette, very nicely dressed, good clothes and conservative. Clear sharp Atlantid features. Well coiffured. Ahhhh... :embarrassed
Gods, if I'd been brought up in a more gentile little town, instead of this post-industrial WRECK! :(

It's really a nice region, though, and York itself is a great city. I'd recommend steering clear of Leeds, Sheffield, and Hull (you won't be missing out on anything anyway). There's a lot of interesting towns, historic sites, and of course your ancestral home to see.
You're very unfair on Hull there. It's actually a very attractive town, so my brother says. And Leeds has a surprisingly pleasant centre. For a Lancastrian (mortal enemy of all Yorkshireness) to be saying this is enough to convince you! Never been to Sheffield, though.

Diolch i chi. :D
Diolch i'r Ior!

[Treffie]

They're Welshers, the lot of em...
I saw a beautiful girl though. In a shoe shop there. Ee, it's not that often that I'm so captivated, I've been around a lot and seen all types, but this one was lovely. Shortish brunette, very nicely dressed, good clothes and conservative. Clear sharp Atlantid features. Well coiffured. Ahhhh... :embarrassed
Gods, if I'd been brought up in a more gentile little town, instead of this post-industrial WRECK! :(



Ahem! Are we supposed to be a nation of `pugnacious little trolls` then?:D

[Loyalist]

Didn't superior originally mean 'above' - if your ancestors were from there, Loyalist, then I'm wondering - are you as ill-suited to the term 'higher' as the current Salopians? They're TINY! :p I was in Shrewsbury a few months ago, and I towered above them all, and I'm only six foot! :D They're Welshers, the lot of em...
I saw a beautiful girl though. In a shoe shop there. Ee, it's not that often that I'm so captivated, I've been around a lot and seen all types, but this one was lovely. Shortish brunette, very nicely dressed, good clothes and conservative. Clear sharp Atlantid features. Well coiffured. Ahhhh... :embarrassed
Gods, if I'd been brought up in a more gentile little town, instead of this post-industrial WRECK! :(

Oh yes, my grandmother was born in Bridgnorth, not too far from Shrewsbury. Admittedly, some in that branch of the family are of "diminutive" height, and rather swarthy Atlantids, but I put that down to the Welsh surnames. :p Fortunately my height doesn't draw from those genes. :thumb001: But now that you mention it, Welsh girls... :amour101:


You're very unfair on Hull there. It's actually a very attractive town, so my brother says. And Leeds has a surprisingly pleasant centre. For a Lancastrian (mortal enemy of all Yorkshireness) to be saying this is enough to convince you! Never been to Sheffield, though.

I found Hull to be uninteresting and apparently suffering from a crime problem while I was there. Maybe if I had stayed longer things would seem different though. But as for Leeds and Sheffield, nothing but dirty industrial cities, probably amplified by the fact that it reminds me of where I live now. :thumb down

[Osweo]

Ahem! Are we supposed to be a nation of `pugnacious little trolls` then?:D
That Foley one of yours, then? ;)

Actually, Tref, I've been meaning to ask - a man I know from Rhyl was going on about how in the good old days, there was a lot of violence between Welsh and Irish rugby fans, and he put it down to sectarianism - which surprised me, as for you lot it'd mean thinking back to the 1500s, no? What was he on about?

[Treffie]

That Foley one of yours, then? ;)

Actually, Tref, I've been meaning to ask - a man I know from Rhyl was going on about how in the good old days, there was a lot of violence between Welsh and Irish rugby fans, and he put it down to sectarianism - which surprised me, as for you lot it'd mean thinking back to the 1500s, no? What was he on about?

I wish I could help you out with that one Oswiu, if my father was still around I'd ask him. I wouldn't ask a Rhylite about rugby anyway, Gogs know nothing!!:D

[Manifest Destiny]

I don't think 1/512 of anything is the real problematic issue faced today for European descendant populations anywhere.

In other words: It's not people with ridiculously tiny amounts of American Indian blood who are destroying this country.

[SuuT]

I demand a translation of this: მაი ხენ უულად ვუ ნჰადაი უნ ანოილ ი ვი, გუულა ბაირდჰ ა ხანტორიონ, ენუუოგიონ ო ვრი - and verifification of this "Wales".


Stop speaking Yiddish and cliquish ethnic coloquiailisms: you're all confusing the rest of us.
\


;)

[Treffie]

I demand a translation of this: მაი ხენ უულად ვუ ნჰადაი უნ ანოილ ი ვი, გუულა ბაირდჰ ა ხანტორიონ, ენუუოგიონ ო ვრი - and verifification of this "Wales".


Stop speaking Yiddish and cliquish ethnic coloquiailisms: you're all confusing the rest of us.
;)

No, no, no!!!:D It's Georgian script, I translated the Welsh national anthem into it.:thumb001:

[Osweo]

I demand a translation of this: მაი ხენ უულად ვუ ნჰადაი უნ ანოილ ი ვი, გუულა ბაირდჰ ა ხანტორიონ, ენუუოგიონ ო ვრი -
Май хен влад въ нхадай ън аннуил и ви гвлад байж а ханторян энвогьён ъ ври

and verifification of this "Wales".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales,_South_Yorkshire

[SouthernBoy]

I think you should leave.

[SuuT]

Май хен влад въ нхадай ън аннуил и ви гвлад байж а ханторян энвогьён ъ ври

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales,_South_Yorkshire


:rolleyes: Gee, thanks. :D


While were at it, I demand proof of this "New Zealand".

[Treffie]

Май хен влад въ нхадай ън аннуил и ви гвлад байж а ханторян энвогьён ъ ври



I like it Oswiu, I've made a few phonetic adjustments though, don't know if this is possible?

Май хен улад въ нхадай ън аннуил и вий гулад байж а ханторион энуогьён ъ врий

[SuuT]

...Май хен улад въ нхадай ън аннуил и вий гулад байж а ханторион энуогьён ъ врий


Fine. I will translate:

"I know that 99% of the members of this forum cannot read this, therefore you are instructed as follows: decieve all who you can that this is a benign phrase pertaining to peaches. By the time these fools realise that it is actually encoded instructions to destroy Europid peoples, the deed will be done."


DID YOU THINK YOUR RESPECTIVE DECEPTIONS WOULD LAST FOREVER!!! HA!

[Barreldriver]

I think you should leave.

why's that?

[Osweo]

While were at it, I demand proof of this "New Zealand".
http://www.musicroom.com/images/catalogue/fullsize/AM984599.jpg
Hayley's all gagged and tied up and ready for postage to your home address, Suutie-pie! (Send her back when you're convinced, okay?)

I like it Oswiu, I've made a few phonetic adjustments though, don't know if this is possible?

Май хен улад въ нхадай ън аннуил и вий гулад байж а ханторион энуогьён ъ врий
Actually, we've BOTH missed the R (or in this case 'P') in Beirdd! :eek: How careless!
I used B for W because it's not 'quite' an English V at all, and thought that Welsh could assimilate Cyrillic on its own terms, rather than accept usual Russian values for the letters. That's why I used a )I( (zh) for DD, you see. Ooh, what fun I would have had in the Thirties, inventing new written languages for Soviet Inuit! :p
Is the penultimate word REALLY so short?
And you separated the diphthong in chantorion. I was under the impression that it was more a sort of glide... :confused:

Fine. I will translate:DID YOU THINK YOUR RESPECTIVE DECEPTIONS WOULD LAST FOREVER!!! HA!
Tarnation! Foiled again! Why, if it wasn't for you pesky Nietzschean Uebermenschen...

Try this one on for size:
Шинне фиянна фойл а та фэ гьал эг Эрън. Буин дар слу ха тийн до рониг хугин....

эрин гу браааа! :p

[SuuT]

http://www.musicroom.com/images/catalogue/fullsize/AM984599.jpg
Hayley's all gagged and tied up and ready for postage to your home address, Suutie-pie! (Send her back when you're convinced, okay?)

I'm afraid this one won't make it back :p.


Tarnation! Foiled again! Why, if it wasn't for you pesky Nietzschean Uebermenschen...

We are that. :D


Try this one on for size:
Шинне фиянна фойл а та фэ гьал эг Эрън. Буин дар слу ха тийн до рониг хугин....

эрин гу браааа! :p


No problem.

"SuuT bothers me to no end but I love him anyway. Although there is no getting anything past him, I will continue to make my attempts to advance the Mongolid Race....

To Hel with Kidney Pie!"

[Treffie]

Try this one on for size:
Шинне фиянна фойл а та фэ гьал эг Эрън. Буин дар слу ха тийн до рониг хугин....

эрин гу браааа! :p

кад е мар а та ту?

Btw, I think we've f***ed Rapbeorn's thread!

Sorry Rapbeorn!:rolleyes:

[Treffie]

why's that?

You ain't going anywhere matey - the one drop rule is a crock of poo! :thumb001:

[SouthernBoy]

why's that? You aren't white.

[Aemma]

You aren't white.


Ahh Southern Boy, come on now, none of that. :(

Thanks...Aemma

[SuuT]

why's that?


I thought he was joking. Not so sure now.:confused:



There is no reasonable argument to be made that someone who is racially 1/512 non-Europid is no longer 'genetically Europid'; and your pheotype/sub-race is clear as day and had you not said something the most discerning eye would see nothing other than Nordish.


Here's a good test for your heart: do you, or do you not, feel the call of THE GREAT SPIRIT? - Yeah, didn't think so. Forget about it, man.

[Treffie]

I thought he was joking. Not so sure now.:confused:




I wonder what skeletons Southern Boy may have in his closet? It maybe a case of those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.:coffee:

[Treffie]

Actually, we've BOTH missed the R (or in this case 'P') in Beirdd! :eek: How careless! That's why I used a )I( (zh) for DD, you see.


Yes, I left that out because I don't think it would really be pronouncable in Russian, it would be something like байрдх. Trilled р of course.



Is the penultimate word REALLY so short?
And you separated the diphthong in chantorion. I was under the impression that it was more a sort of glide... :confused:

Welsh is very phonetic, cantorion would be pronounced CAN-TOR-EE-ON, again trilled R. :thumb001:

[Barreldriver]

You aren't white.

I guess you've never once observed a single autosomal DNA plot eh? If you had, then there shouldn't logically be a single white person around according to your one drop rule logic. You fail miserably. On this subject, can you prove your alleged purity?

[Aemma]

Yes, I left that out because I don't think it would really be pronouncable in Russian, it would be something like байрдх. Trilled р of course.




Welsh is very phonetic, cantorion would be pronounced CAN-TOR-EE-ON, again trilled R. :thumb001:


Ok you guys, speak English! Damnit! I can't understand a damn thing that you're saying! :p :D

:wink...Aemma

[Barreldriver]

Here's a good test for your heart: do you, or do you not, feel the call of THE GREAT SPIRIT?

lol Hell no.

[Treffie]

Ok you guys, speak English! Damnit! I can't understand a damn thing that you're saying! :p :D

:wink...Aemma

Don't shout at me Ms Aemma - I'm only young and small!:angel

[Aemma]

Don't shout at me Ms Aemma - I'm only young and small!:angel

:) Ok Tref, for you, my most favourite Welshman, I'll just gently whisper.....

Ok you guys, speak English! Damnit! I can't understand a damn thing that you're saying! :p :D

:p...Aemma

[Barreldriver]

Don't shout at me Ms Aemma - I'm only young and small!:angel

"I'm only young and small", let's hope this guy ain't around lol:

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m282/nkelly729/herbert-dance1280x1024.gif

[SuuT]

lol Hell no.

'nuff said, then.

[Frigga]

Isn't Southern Boy the same one in the abortion thread that said it would be better for a rape victim to raise the child from that rape, even if it was half black or mexican, and she was white? :confused:Why would he then say that? It doesn't make any sense to me.:confused:

[The Lawspeaker]

It doesn't make sense to me either..- So SouthernBoy you are a bit of a strange one are you ? Forcing women that have been raped by a black or Hispanic to keep their child because the abortion would be sinful but lashing out against a sound preservationist that has a few drops in Native American in it's veins.
You are a peculiar bloke ....

[Lady L]

You know what I love about this place....:D

That no matter what a thread may be called - there is going to be some heated/hilarious discussions going on :D they may not have shit to do with the title!!!

:victory0:

[SouthernBoy]

There is no reasonable argument to be made that someone who is racially 1/512 non-Europid is no longer 'genetically Europid'... One of his ancestors wasn't "Europid" after "Europids" formed, so he isn't "Europid."

There's no gray area here.
I wonder what skeletons Southern Boy may have in his closet? It maybe a case of those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.:rolleyes:
I guess you've never once observed a single autosomal DNA plot eh? If you had, then there shouldn't logically be a single white person around according to your one drop rule logic. You fail miserably.Do you know what a "straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw-man)" argument is?
On this subject, can you prove your alleged purity?I wasn't aware it was in question.
Isn't Southern Boy the same one in the abortion thread that said it would be better for a rape victim to raise the child from that rape, even if it was half black or mexican, and she was white? :confused:Why would he then say that? It doesn't make any sense to me.:confused: We can discuss it in that thread if you like.
It doesn't make sense to me either..- So SouthernBoy you are a bit of a strange one are you ? Forcing women that have been raped by a black or Hispanic to keep their child because the abortion would be sinful but lashing out against a sound preservationist that has a few drops in Native American in it's veins.
You are a peculiar bloke .... Neither being mixed nor being conceived through rape should mean one deserves to die.

[SuuT]

One of his ancestors wasn't "Europid" after "Europids" formed, so he isn't "Europid."


Ahhhh, good then. Always easier when a dog fucks with the wrong bull.

1.) When - exactly - did Europids form, and how does raþbeorn not comform to the process of 'outbreeding?'

2.) At what point is one not Genotypially/Phenotypically Europid?

3.) You place quotation marks (as opposed to inverted commas) around the term Europid: thereby implying a terminological fiction to the term, itself; which one is justified as rendering amourphous, according to your implication. Ergo, what are your 'Europid' parameters?

4.) You implicate, by lateral extension, that out-breeding is not only not possible, but absurd; and, further implicate a nebulous 'purity' to which you have not held yourself to the standard of, but have - thus far - not provided the proof for: may we see the results of your blut-tests...?

5.) I am, without a doubt, geneaologically/genotypically/pheotypically amongst the 'purist' of members here; and yet, I accept raþbeorn as Brunnoid. - what, besides his (honourable/noble) self-discovery places you in a position of judgement above and beyond that which he - and I - clearly is/am for no other reason that you say it ought be so...?



Good Luck; I do hope you will THINK prior to your answer,


S.

[SouthernBoy]

...how does raþbeorn not comform to the process of 'outbreeding?'Did I claim he didn't?
At what point is one not Genotypially/Phenotypically Europid?I don't know. I don't use the term.
You place quotation marks (as opposed to inverted commas) around the term Europid: thereby implying a terminological fiction to the term, itself; which one is justified as rendering amourphous, according to your implication.You're reading way too much into it.
...what are your 'Europid' parameters? I don't care about the word that much. How do you define "Europid?"
You implicate, by lateral extension, that out-breeding is not only not possible, but absurd; and, further implicate a nebulous 'purity' to which you have not held yourself to the standard of, but have - thus far - not provided the proof for: may we see the results of your blut-tests...? I "implicate?"
I am, without a doubt, geneaologically/genotypically/pheotypically amongst the 'purist' of members here; and yet, I accept raþbeorn as Brunnoid.That's lamentable.
...what, besides his (honourable/noble) self-discovery places you in a position of judgement above and beyond that which he - and I - clearly is/am for no other reason that you say it ought be so...? I'm just "calling a spade, a spade."

God forbid that someone think a person who isn't white should leave a message board for European preservation. :rolleyes:

[Æmeric]

SouthernBoy, have you researched your own lineage going back the last 300-400 years? How do you know what is there? You remind me of some of those Euros who believe in the one-drop rule but are afraid to actually trace their own lineage - they would rather not know what is might be there.

[Barreldriver]

Did I claim he didn't?I don't know. I don't use the term.You're reading way too much into it. I don't care about the word that much. How do you define "Europid?" I "implicate?"That's lamentable. I'm just "calling a spade, a spade."

God forbid that someone think a person who isn't white should leave a message board for European preservation. :rolleyes:

^ Do I look anything other than white? Was I raised in any culture outside of that influenced by the 99.8% of my ancestors? I find it hard to believe that .2% of anything is significant, and according to Reich standards I would be accepted, and by the standards of the clear majority of people here, and I will ask again, can you prove that you are 100%? I'd like to see the proof.

[Osweo]

Goddammit, if he wasn't a dirty pie-head Yorkshireman, I'd let him marry my sister! :P What's all the fuss about, at all?

If I had a glass of water, and a lump of shit fell in it, but then I used some clever scientific device to remove all the shit molecules, so that nowt was left but water (actually, simple distillation could do this, or centrifugation) - would I then have a glass of water, or a contaminated glass of effluent?

Chances are that with the various recombinations of genes down the line, there's nothing of Red Indian in Rathbeorn at all. That's how genetics works, isn't it? If we lived in the Dark Ages and didn't understand the processes at work, some degree of caution might be well understandable, but not here.

Actually, even if his mitochondria were from this Indian lady, I wouldn't be too fussed - what are they going to do? Make his kids have straight black hair, eagle-noses, and a penchant for buffalo meat?

The very Indian woman in question might herself already have been mixed, even (quite likely from what I hear of the sort of thing that used to go on over there), or may have been fully Europeanised in culture anyway. Big deal!

[SouthernBoy]

SouthernBoy, have you researched your own lineage going back the last 300-400 years? No.
How do you know what is there? I don't.
I find it hard to believe that .2% of anything is significant... Was it significant enough to completely change your opinions on some things instantaneously? Have your views on miscegenation changed?

Being mixed is sometimes more mental than physical.
...can you prove that you are 100%?No.
The very Indian woman in question might herself already have been mixed, even (quite likely from what I hear of the sort of thing that used to go on over there), or may have been fully Europeanised in culture anyway. Big deal!Am I really reading this here? :rolleyes:

I swear it seems like everyone on this board condones miscegenation in one way or another.

[Æmeric]

No they don't condone, most would condemn it. But we can't change what happened 5, 6, 10 generations ago. We can try to prevent future cases of miscegenation, especially on the scale that has accelerated in the last generation in the West.

[Allenson]

raþbeorn--until (if) you take a full autosomnal DNA test, nothing is certain. Genealogies have been wrong in the past, don'tcha know? ;)

[Barreldriver]

No. I don't. Was it significant enough to completely change your opinions on some things instantaneously? Have your views on miscegenation changed?

Being mixed is sometimes more mental than physical.No.Am I really reading this here? :rolleyes:




^ I do not believe in miscegenation, but it is an inevitable fact that for the greater majority of white people in this world there is at least one taint, the goal is to prevent large scale/influential miscegination, and .2% that could not be helped is according to most here nothing to worry about, and given the records it's not even 100% proven, according to what Loyalist posted on the "lineage in question".


How's about we make a vote, whether I should leave or not, greatest vote count determines the action eh ShouthernBoy? Sound fair?

[Lenny]

great great great great great great great grandfather was half Dutch half Injun name Mag the Greyhorse Herrman

(if you do the math it would make me 1/512 taint, which is approx .0020, or .2%)

If I counted those "greats" correctly, one ancestor 9 generations ago was half AmericanIndian ---> One ancestor 10 generations ago was full AmericanIndian.

1.) That is 1/1024, or below 0.1%. That is pretty much meaningless.
2.) It's mathemtically possible, even moderately likely, that you inherited exactly 0 gene sequences from this Indian woman 10 generations ago (assuming you are only descended from her on one line)!

If you're interesting in how that is, read this [originally written to dispel the dumb myth that Europeans all have "Mohammed's blood", as was claimed by some harebrained AP article a few years back]:


A year or so ago, there was a widely-printed AP story claiming that the Queen of England was a direct descendant of Mohammed, 45 generations removed. The message was: We are all mixed, we all have the blood of every race on the globe "flowing through our veins" . The sociopolitical implications are clear.

Well, sorry "news"-writers, but genetics does not work that way! Let's do a little math: 45 generations ago, everyone has 35.2 trillion "ancestral slots" (2^45), and many individuals will repeat themselves millions or even billions of times in that family tree. (Clarification of the term "ancestral slot": In the time of our grandparents we have 4 ancestral slots, in the time of our great-grandparents we have 8, etc.) If "Mohammed" or any other individual appears in one of those slots--or even one million of those slots--45 generations ago, it does NOT mean that the person will have 1/35.2 trillionth or 1-million/35.2 trillionth of "Mohammed's DNA".

You see, a human being has 6 billion nucleotides of DNA, but DNA is typically transmitted in packs of hundreds of kilobases [1,000 nucleotides] at a time. Let's work with a conservative estimate of 400 Kb [i.e., 400,000 nucelotides] at a time. 6 billion/400,000=15,000. So an individual will only receive any DNA at all from 15,000 lines of descent at most; likely fewer than that. So, the odds are ~15,000/35 trillion (i.e., statistically zero) that anyone inherits [I]any DNA at all from any single line 45 generations ago.

In short, when speaking of any single "ancestral slot" earlier than 14 generations ago [14 generations back we have 16,384 of them], you have most likely inherited no DNA at all from that "ancestral slot". (I do not use the phrase "from that person", because you might also descend from the person through multiple lines of ancestry).

Back to Mohammed being the Founding Father of the Modern European Population, as this AP article was boasting. That article alleged that "the Mohammed line" came in 40 generations ago, in the 900s through Muslim-occupied Spain. But for there to be anything but an astronomical chance to have received any DNA from Ancestor X 40 generations ago, Ancestor X would have to appear in one's ancestral tree at least millions (to be safe, tens of billions or more) of times. This is inevitable for a basically stable population group like Norway (e.g., all ethnicNorwegians have genes from Harald Fairhair), but a lot less likely in the case of just one tenuous line coming in. So it's likely that next to no Europeans (not counting recent immigrants) have any of "Mohammed's DNA" (that is, DNA inherited directly from him), which for all practical purposes means they aren't descended from him, even if he is in fact some people's great(x45) grandfather.

So it is all about "blood stock" [i.e., what did the overwhelming majority of the people filling up those 35.2 trillion ancestral slots of yours 45 generations ago look like?], and not "I am a descendant of one Arab merchant from the times the Romans colonized Britain", which is irrelevant.

[Lenny]

Well, if you believe basic evolutionary theory then we almost certainly all came from Africa, so noone is literally 100% European.Out of Africa is a recent phenomenon. 30 years ago, there was no consensus about where humans evolved; most likely it was thought evolution happened in various places of Eurasia and in Africa.

The popularity of "Out of Africa" is a clear reflection of the Zeitgeist, that's for sure. OoA is basically a perversion of Nazi Aryan theory, updated for the 1990s-2000s. Instead of a mythical race of tall blue-eyed-blondes founding everything in pre-history, OoA has replaced it now with a race of intrepid blacks coming "out of Africa" and "founding" everything, including every other ethnicity on Earth.

If we allow ourselves politically-incorrect thoughts, there is good reason to believe that relatively little evolution actually happened in Africa at all; see here: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2391

[Æmeric]

A year or so ago, there was a widely-printed AP story claiming that the Queen of England was a direct descendant of Mohammed, 45 generations removed. The message was: We are all mixed, we all have the blood of every race on the globe "flowing through our veins" [i.e., in our DNA]. The sociopolitical implications are clear.

Well, sorry "news"-writers, but genetics does not work that way! Let's do a little math: 45 generations ago, everyone has 35.2 trillion "ancestral slots" (2^45), and many individuals will repeat themselves millions or even billions of times in that family tree. (Clarification of the term "ancestral slot": In the time of our grandparents we have 4 ancestral slots, in the time of our great-grandparents we have 8, etc.) If "Mohammed" or any other individual appears in one of those slots--or even one million of those slots--45 generations ago, it does NOT mean that the person will have 1/35.2 trillionth or 1-million/35.2 trillionth of "Mohammed's DNA".

You see, a human being has 6 billion nucleotides of DNA, but DNA is typically transmitted in packs of hundreds of kilobases [1,000 nucleotides] at a time. Let's work with a conservative estimate of 400 Kb [i.e., 400,000 nucelotides] at a time. 6 billion/400,000=15,000. So an individual will only receive any DNA at all from 15,000 lines of descent at most; likely fewer than that. So, the odds are ~15,000/35 trillion (i.e., statistically zero) that anyone inherits any DNA at all from any single line 45 generations ago.

In short, when speaking of any single "ancestral slot" earlier than 14 generations ago [14 generations back we have 16,384 of them], you have most likely inherited no DNA at all from that "ancestral slot". (I do not use the phrase "from that person", because you might also descend from the person through multiple lines of ancestry).

Back to Mohammed being the Founding Father of the Modern European Population, as this AP article was boasting. That article alleged that "the Mohammed line" came in 40 generations ago, in the 900s through Muslim-occupied Spain. But for there to be anything but an astronomical chance to have received any DNA from Ancestor X 40 generations ago, Ancestor X would have to appear in one's ancestral tree at least millions (to be safe, tens of billions or more) of times. This is inevitable for a basically stable population group like Norway (e.g., all ethnicNorwegians have genes from Harald Fairhair), but a lot less likely in the case of just one tenuous line coming in. So it's likely that next to no Europeans (not counting recent immigrants) have any of "Mohammed's DNA" (that is, DNA inherited directly from him), which for all practical purposes means they aren't descended from him, even if he is in fact some people's great(x45) grandfather.

So it is all about "blood stock" [i.e., what did the overwhelming majority of the people filling up those 35.2 trillion ancestral slots of yours 45 generations ago look like?], and not "I am a descendant of one Arab merchant from the times the Romans colonized Britain", which is irrelevant.

What is being described here is pedigree collapse. (http://www.generations.on.ca/genealogy/pedigree.htm) This is also a good time to point out that the total number of genes in the human genome is estimated to be 20,000 to 25,000. At 15 generations removed from yourself (13 x great grandparents) you have a 32,768 ancestors or ancestoral slots.

[SPQR]

I swear it seems like everyone on this board condones miscegenation in one way or another.

Last time I checked you were the only one who condones it. You'd proudly raise the child of a nigger that raped your wife :thumb001:

[SuuT]

Did I claim he didn't?

Yup. You said he wasn't 'white'. Further, I ran the numbers myself and Lenny is correct: 1/1024, or below 0.1% non-European/Europid/'white'/cracker/honkey - whatever you want, man.


I don't know. I don't use the term.

You've got me there. Instead you use 'white' (which is not wrong to do, per se - just wrong here). I have attached a map of Europe so that you may demarcate where 'white' stops and starts.


You're reading way too much into it.

I simply do not do this. I take what people say at face value; if they make sense, they do - if they do not, they don't. My aim here is to force you to take a look at the terms that comprise your appoach, as they need improvement.


I don't care about the word that much.

Although this is probably tossing an idea to a wall, perhaps you should learn a little more about Taxonomy. If for no other reason than to bring a Science to your lexis that doesn't sound so po-dunk. 'White', again, is not wrong per se - it is a matter of context.


How do you define "Europid?"


EUROPID (Caucasian or White race (Blumenbach); Caucasoid; European Temperate Race (Agassiz); Homo sapiens albus)

One of the major subspecies or races of Homo sapiens, indigenous to western Eurasia and North Africa. The most important subvarieties or evolutionary tendencies are Cro-Magnoid (including Alpinoid), Indid, Mediterranid, Nordid, Orientalid and Taurid.



I "implicate?"

Yup. In so far you imply as a necessary circumstance, or as something to be inferred or understood by using the term 'white', in this context, you do indeed implicate. Indeed you implicate, by definition, more than you actually say anything.


That's lamentable.

Of which (sub) Race is he, then, Southernboy.


I'm just "calling a spade, a spade."

Without knowing the difference between a spade, a club, heart, etc. That is the problem.


God forbid that someone think a person who isn't white should leave a message board for European preservation. :rolleyes:


Please explain what is not 'white' about 1/1024 admixture.

[SouthernBoy]

Yup. No, I didn't. Please post a link to where I said "raþbeorn [does] not comform to the process of 'outbreeding'."

I believe he does conform. An "outbred" person is a member of neither strain. A person who is of French and German ancestry is neither French nor German, inasmuch as neither the French nor the Germans descend from one another.
You said he wasn't 'white'. He isn't.

One can't belong to a racial group unless one is fully descended from other members of that group after it can be said that that group came into existence.
...you use 'white' (which is not wrong to do, per se - just wrong here).Why's it wrong here?
I have attached a map of Europe so that you may demarcate where 'white' stops and starts. I'm unaware of anywhere in the world where the population is exclusively white.
My aim here is to force you to take a look at the terms that comprise your appoach, as they need improvement. How is that?
Although this is probably tossing an idea to a wall, perhaps you should learn a little more about Taxonomy. I never thought I would be told that. How things change. ;)
In so far you imply as a necessary circumstance, or as something to be inferred or understood by using the term 'white', in this context, you do indeed implicate.You aren't even arguing with me. You're arguing with your "inference" or "understanding" of a word I used of which you have yet to glean my definition.
Of which (sub) Race is he, then, Southernboy. He doesn't belong to any race.
Without knowing the difference between a spade, a club, heart, etc. That is the problem. How many assumptions are you going to make? :rolleyes:
Please explain what is not 'white' about 1/1024 admixture. He isn't fully descended from white people after white people began to exist, therefore he isn't white.

[Baron Samedi]

Are you really serious, mate?

[Loki]

He isn't fully descended from white people after white people began to exist, therefore he isn't white.

SouthernBoy ... do you have any idea how many hundreds of bloodlines you are talking about here? There is no-one on earth who has a full genealogical picture of their descent. Who knows, you and I may have something weird going back 500 years or more -- there isn't a chance we could find out. But since we are essentially ignorant of our entire background, does that necessarily mean we can proudly and confidently make the claim that our bloodlines have never crossed that of a non-European since the white race began? I think this is too ambitious a claim.

The main difference between raþbeorn and yourself, is that he has researched his genealogy and can see a far clearer picture of his makeup than you can. Ignorance does not make you pure.

[SouthernBoy]

I think this is too ambitious a claim.I don't.

There's nothing more important than humanity. :)
The main difference between raþbeorn and yourself, is that he has researched his genealogy and can see a far clearer picture of his makeup than you can.To the best of my knowledge, I am white.

I could have far more Indian ancestry than raþbeorn and not know about it. I could have black ancestry. My ancestors have been in close contact with both of those groups for the last three hundred years.
Ignorance does not make you pure. If you know you're mixed, as I and some other members do. It's your responsibility to "stop the bleeding" and find someone with the same ancestry as yourself. I know it may seem tedious, but the alternative is a world that becomes more and more miscegenated with every new generation.

[Loki]

If you know you're mixed, as I and some other members do.

You know you're mixed? I'm not sure I follow.

[SouthernBoy]

You know you're mixed? I'm not sure I follow. I am of English, Scottish, and Irish ancestry.

[Loki]

I am of English, Scottish, and Irish ancestry.

You mongrel! :D

[Absinthe]

Yeah, get out of here, you aren't pure! :D

[Skandi]

I swear it seems like everyone on this board condones miscegenation in one way or another.

No we don't but there is little point crying over spilt milk, especially when it would only be a drop, not even enough to wet the carpet.


Being mixed is sometimes more mental than physical.

Doesn't this invalidate your argument? if it is more mental than physical and he "feels" European then he is, no?

[The Lawspeaker]

I am of English, Scottish, and Irish ancestry.
You mongrel.. :D Get outta here. We want purebloods...

[Barreldriver]

I don't.

There's nothing more important than humanity. :)To the best of my knowledge, I am white.

I could have far more Indian ancestry than raþbeorn and not know about it. I could have black ancestry. My ancestors have been in close contact with both of those groups for the last three hundred years. If you know you're mixed, as I and some other members do. It's your responsibility to "stop the bleeding" and find someone with the same ancestry as yourself. I know it may seem tedious, but the alternative is a world that becomes more and more miscegenated with every new generation.

what you are suggesting is a near impossibility, I'm an odd case when it comes to genealogy and I have a far greater knowledge of my genealogy that 99% of the people out there, there is no way to determine 100% without a doubt what a potential mates ancestry is even with autosomal DNA given the fact that you only inherit DNA from so many ancestors, and it what you are suggesting is ridiculous on another level, it would be less miscegenated with every new generation, the taint would be more and more diluted, hell it's almost a garuntee that the "taint" would not even show up on a DNA test for myself, let alone someone generations on down the line from myself. What you are suggesting is the impossible for most humans let alone those who claim "white" as their race, and have you read all the posts in this thread? If you had, you would've also read that the taint isn't 100% proven, it's a speculation given what has been posted by other members(I forgot who posted the initial post pointing out that my "tainted line" might not be tainted).

[Barreldriver]

^ God there's so much "taint" in that post lol. That could lead to too many dirty jokes lol.

[SouthernBoy]

Doesn't this invalidate your argument?No.
if it is more mental than physical and he "feels" European then he is, no? It's sometimes more mental than physical.

I don't believe anyone here would accept someone as European who was half Indian. The degree of admixture isn't as important to me as the fact of admixture. Someone with any amount of Indian blood can never be European.
what you are suggesting is a near impossibility, I'm an odd case when it comes to genealogy and I have a far greater knowledge of my genealogy that 99% of the people out there, there is no way to determine 100% without a doubt what a potential mates ancestry is even with autosomal DNA given the fact that you only inherit DNA from so many ancestors...It's your responsibility not to mix.

You must decide what your "deal breakers" are. All I can do is try to "talk you down."
...what you are suggesting is ridiculous on another level, it would be less miscegenated with every new generation, the taint would be more and more diluted... From how many ethnicities is your ancestry derived?

If your mate isn't descended from those same ethnicities in the same proportions, you're children will be more mixed than either of you.
...hell it's almost a garuntee that the "taint" would not even show up on a DNA test for myself, let alone someone generations on down the line from myself.There's more to genealogy than DNA, as I'm sure you're aware. :)
What you are suggesting is the impossible for most humans let alone those who claim "white" as their race, and have you read all the posts in this thread? Most people needn't breed. ;)
If you had, you would've also read that the taint isn't 100% proven, it's a speculation given what has been posted by other members(I forgot who posted the initial post pointing out that my "tainted line" might not be tainted).You've shared your speculation and I've shared my opinion.

[Barreldriver]

I can see that this is going to be a never ending circle, you have overwhelming evidence against you, you cannot be convinced of the contrary to your opinion, all this has become is a never ending cirlcle that leads ultimately to nowhere. Shall we take a final vote? Majority wins, fair and simple. eh? Just say the words and I'll establish the poll.

And before you judge me I highly suggest you do some research on yourself, I will laugh my ass off if you discover some Indian or Negroe blood after all your antics. For all you know at this point I'm more pure than you yourself.

[Rasvalg]

Please remember that you get 75% of your mothers genes and only 25% of your fathers. Then you can figure exactly how much injun you have in you. As well as anything else that you find in you.
Everybody seems to know a bunch about geneology, but the best are the injuns and even they figure there math like this so as to know who can get an indian check at the end of the month.:D

[Barreldriver]

Please remember that you get 75% of your mothers genes and only 25% of your fathers. Then you can figure exactly how much injun you have in you. As well as anything else that you find in you.
Everybody seems to know a bunch about geneology, but the best are the injuns and even they figure there math like this so as to know who can get an indian check at the end of the month.:D

The supposed tainted line is within my paternal lineage back before the Revolutionary War, the ancestor was paternally Dutch maternally injun.

[Rasvalg]

The supposed tainted line is within my paternal lineage back before the Revolutionary War, the ancestor was paternally Dutch maternally injun.

I understand that and that is why I posted what I said. Refigure how much that you have and you may find that it is almost completely bred out.:lightbul:

[Barreldriver]

I understand that and that is why I posted what I said. Refigure how much that you have and you may find that it is almost completely bred out.:lightbul:

That's what everyone else along with myself have been saying throughout this thread but SouthernBoy seems to think otherwise.

[Rasvalg]

Oh yeah as for what Varg says some of it is pretty good and some is while just plain off the wall.
I have been an Odinist for a few years now and my studies and even my talk with men of faith such as Rich Scutari have led me to believe that those of European stock who live good lives shall enter the halls of the Gods of OUR Blood.
This brings me to the question. What Gods speak through your blood? Whatever the answer is is where you belong. Hopefully it shall be fighting on the side of humanity at Ragnorok.

[Rasvalg]

So what what Southern Boy thinks it doesn't make him correct. Science in the end rules the day and apparently from what I have read he didn't study or only took what he wanted out of it.

[Barreldriver]

Oh yeah as for what Varg says some of it is pretty good and some is while just plain off the wall.
I have been an Odinist for a few years now and my studies and even my talk with men of faith such as Rich Scutari have led me to believe that those of European stock who live good lives shall enter the halls of the Gods of OUR Blood.
This brings me to the question. What Gods speak through your blood? Whatever the answer is is where you belong. Hopefully it shall be fighting on the side of humanity at Ragnorok.

Ever since I began researching genealogy, antiquity Europe, and ancient European religion I've always felt a connection to Tyr and Odin, and when one of the elder members of the Asatru Folk Assembly helped me with some runic issues(divination, reading, casting, etc...) I've felt closer to Odin, but that connection with Tyr still remains via my sense of justice the lex talionis(perfect combination of Justice and War, just as Tyr is a combo of Justice and War).

[Rasvalg]

While then there is your answer to all of your questions.
See you at Ragnorok Brother.:thumb001:

[Electronic God-Man]

Please remember that you get 75% of your mothers genes and only 25% of your fathers.

I've never heard of that. I thought it was half and half.

........................................
SouthernBoy has a weird sense of ethnicities wherein, for example, the French have no overlap with the Germans. French is one block, German another and English is one monolithic block and the Scots a completely different one. I can not understand his thinking in any but these terms. He calls himself "mixed", literally he thinks his forefathers miscegenated, because he has English, Scottish, and Irish ancestry. :confused:

[Rasvalg]

I've never heard of that. I thought it was half and half.

........................................
SouthernBoy has a weird sense of ethnicities wherein, for example, the French have no overlap with the Germans. French is one block, German another and English is one monolithic block and the Scots a completely different one. I can not understand his thinking in any but these terms. He calls himself "mixed", literally he thinks his forefathers miscegenated, because he has English, Scottish, and Irish ancestry. :confused:

Strange sense for sure...
Yes even the natives figure it by the 75 25 way of things. Sheds a whole new light on your ancestory does it not?

[Electronic God-Man]

Strange sense for sure...
Yes even the natives figure it by the 75 25 way of things. Sheds a whole new light on your ancestory does it not?

Yes, but is there anything scientific behind your statement?


God, I'm much more German than I thought if you are true.

[Vulpix]

Please remember that you get 75% of your mothers genes and only 25% of your fathers. Then you can figure exactly how much injun you have in you. As well as anything else that you find in you.
Everybody seems to know a bunch about geneology, but the best are the injuns and even they figure there math like this so as to know who can get an indian check at the end of the month.:D

Where did you get that figure from :confused:?

[Treffie]

Too much `stone throwing` on this thread - one member in particular. I'm so confused how Rathbeorn is not considered white?:confused:

My native language has a non Indo European substrata, it's been speculated that the source could be Phoenician. If it is proven that this is the case, then some of my ancestors may have come from North Africa :eek:

I wonder what Southern Boy will have to say about that?:rolleyes:

[Ulf]

23 from your ma 23 from your pop.

Technically though, women have one less chromosome than men. XX

[Rasvalg]

Where did you get that figure from :confused:?

That is the figure that the Native Americans here in the states have gotten from studies by different orgs here so that they can figure out who is Native or not so they can cut them there govt. check at the end of every month. I have also looked into it and that is about as close as you truly get to the genes that you get. That is why ma always ruled the roost in our ancestors homes until xtianity came in. Then we picked the jewish rule of if your father was jewish then you were but if your mother was then you were not. Figure that one if you can.
I will try and find the link for the genes this weekend and add it when I have time.

[Vulpix]

23 from your ma 23 from your pop.

Technically though, women have one less chromosome than men. XX

Actually, it is men (XY) who have one chromosome and a half for the 23rd pair...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Karyotype.png/557px-Karyotype.png

[Æmeric]

Actually, it is men (XY) who have one chromosome and a half for the 23rd pair...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Karyotype.png/557px-Karyotype.png
But as a consolation prize we have penises.:cool:

[SouthernBoy]

...you have overwhelming evidence against you...I must have missed it. Where's it at again?
Shall we take a final vote? Majority wins, fair and simple. eh? Just say the words and I'll establish the poll.I don't care what the majority thinks.
And before you judge me I highly suggest you do some research on yourself... I'm not "judging" you.

I forgot everyone insists on taking everything personally here. :rolleyes:
Science in the end rules the day and apparently from what I have read he didn't study or only took what he wanted out of it. What have you read?
SouthernBoy has a weird sense of ethnicities wherein, for example, the French have no overlap with the Germans. French is one block, German another and English is one monolithic block and the Scots a completely different one. I can not understand his thinking in any but these terms. To be French one must be French from the time the French existed. To be German one must be German from the time the Germans existed. To be English one must be English from the time the English existed. To be Scottish one must be Scottish from the time the Scots existed.

What's unclear?
I'm so confused how Rathbeorn is not considered white?:confused: He has an ancestor who wasn't white after whites began to exist.
I wonder what Southern Boy will have to say about that? I'm sure it will be something insightful. ;)

[Loyalist]

To be French one must be French from the time the French existed. To be German one must be German from the time the Germans existed. To be English one must be English from the time the English existed. To be Scottish one must be Scottish from the time the Scots existed.

And when did the French, Germans, English, and Scots begin to exist? Through some supernatural overnight process? In fact, as for your earlier assertion, when did the white race as a whole begin to exist? What do you even mean by "exist"?

[Æmeric]

@SouthernBoy: You might want to look up the subject of livestock breeding or of dog breeding. There are plenty of registered pure Herefords or Charolais cattle - with papers to prove their purity - who's ancestry is not completely 100% Hereford, Charolais or whatever the case may be. Many times, especially in the female line & in the American West, they may have a longhorn ancestor. In livestock breeding I think it is 7/8 or 15/16 that is counted as pure. Though for breeding purposes the animals are judged individually as for breeding quality. The same for dog breeding. At some point after so many crosses with a pure line, the mongrel line is considered pure & the non (insert Hereford, Labrador or French) is irrelevant.

I'm not saying 1/8 or 1/16 Negro/Burmese/Sioux is ok. But at some point in human breeding, that something extra-Europid becomes irrelevant.

[SuuT]

But as a consolation prize we have penises.:cool:


I think you have 'white' envy.

[Barreldriver]

I must have missed it. Where's it at again?

I suggest you read through this entire thread and pay special attention to the posts that bring up scientific data to support my being white, and I still don't see how you can consider yourself credible given that you have not done the research on your own ancestry, and zero research pertaining to physical anthropology and human biodiversity and genetics. Before you go saying who is and who isn't white I suggest that you do research and study yourself and humanity and races in general before you go pointing fingers at who is and who isn't what. You have an uneducated opinion which is invalid in all senses, you haven't earned the priviledge to have an opinion on the matter because you haven't done the research to produce any evidence/proof, an opinion is only as good as its proof.

[Freomæg]

Varg's take on the Germanic polytheism is that only people of 100% European ancestry could be honored in the after life
Varg also believes that anyone with brown, hazel or dark mixed eyes and dark hair is unfit for the Germanic gods :rolleyes:. I understand how you feel but he is an extreme Nordicist and is not representative of all, or even most modern Heathenism. As far as I know, his interpretation is not backed up by any substantial literary or oral evidence. I certainly don't believe that the quality of your afterlife destination depends upon your appearance or genetics in this Earthly realm. It depends upon your character and actions.

[SouthernBoy]

I'm not saying 1/8 or 1/16 Negro/Burmese/Sioux is ok. But at some point in human breeding, that something extra-Europid becomes irrelevant. Why compromise at all?
[...] I assure you I have spent more than one hundred hours researching my ancestry at genealogical libraries and atleast ten times that much time talking to relatives, visiting cemeteries, searching census records, and viewing online sources.

All that pales in comparison to the thousands of hours I have spent researching physical anthropology, racial diversity, human physiology, genetics, and sociology in libraries and online.

[SuuT]

[...] All that pales in comparison to the thousands of hours I have spent researching physical anthropology, racial diversity, human physiology, genetics, and sociology in libraries and online.


:rolleyes:Then why do you have no idea what you are talking about.



C-ya. - I'd say we all gave it our best.

[Skandi]

To be French one must be French from the time the French existed. To be German one must be German from the time the Germans existed. To be English one must be English from the time the English existed. To be Scottish one must be Scottish from the time the Scots existed.



So to be English do you have to have all "English" ancestors from Roman times? Alfred the great's time (900's)? and would having a bit of French blood in you from the last time we were conquered in 1066 disqualify you? By your definition having an ancestor 1000 years ago that was French would make you not English, and that is just plain stupid. That's a conservative 40 generations back.

The Romans brought in men from Persia and Egypt to man their border forts.
The Danes occupied much of the North during Alfred's reign.
The Normans brought over their families and the elite did marry them.

With just those three things it is probable that there is no such thing as a "pure" English person

In continental Europe things are even more mixed and much more recent, the world wars saw German and allied soldiers fathering children, displaced people also stayed in their new countries.
Sweden occupied large areas of Germany between 1618 -1648 and obviously interbred with the locals.

Finland declared it's Independence from Russia in 1917. Does a Fin only need to be ancestrally from Finland until that date? that's only three generations back

Borders are not solid things many have changed constantly during their history, take Scotland and England, Denmark and Germany, France and Germany. many borders have been totally re-drawn after WWII.

Trying to define ethnicity with a pencil line is just not practical.

[SouthernBoy]

So to be English do you have to have all "English" ancestors from Roman times? Alfred the great's time (900's)? and would having a bit of French blood in you from the last time we were conquered in 1066 disqualify you? I don't believe many historians would argue that the English nationality existed prior to 1066. I certainly wouldn't. :)
Sweden occupied large areas of Germany between 1618 -1648 and obviously interbred with the locals. Did the German nationality even exist in 1648?
Borders are not solid things many have changed constantly during their history, take Scotland and England, Denmark and Germany, France and Germany. many borders have been totally re-drawn after WWII. I'm sure the difference between a "nation" and a "country" isn't wasted on you.
Trying to define ethnicity with a pencil line is just not practical.It's very practical.

What isn't practical is ethnicity being defined by cronyism and personal whim. :rolleyes:

[Skandi]

I don't believe many historians would argue that the English nationality existed prior to 1066. I certainly wouldn't. :)

The Anglo Saxons did pretty well. If there was no English nationality untill then, then we are all French anyway



I'm sure the difference between a "nation" and a "country" isn't wasted on you.


dictionary defination ; (Collins)

Nation; an aggregation of people or peoples of one or more cultures, races, etc., organised into a single state.

Country; A territory distinguised by it's people culture, language, geography etc., an area of land distinguished by it's political autonomy; state.

So a Country is defined by culture etc and a Nation is not. They both say practically the same thing and the argument would be valid whichever way you wish to define the words. either the people move and/or the borders move. Either way mixing has been happening continuously, about the only exceptions to this are extreamy isolated peoples like Iceland

[Æmeric]

Did the German nationality even exist in 1648?

There was a German/Deutsche ethicity in 1648. At least as a meta-ethnicity made up of Bavarians, Saxon, Fraconians, Swabians, Mecklenbergers etc.... Do you think the German ethnicity only came about in 1871?:confused:

[Hrolf Kraki]

It also poses a religious issue, when I began studying Germanic polytheism I got wrapped up in the whole Varg Vikernes thing for a while, and my view in regards to any religion is highly distorted because I do not know what is properly cited and the sort, well Varg's take on the Germanic polytheism is that only people of 100% European ancestry could be honored in the after life, the rest doomed to a fate with Hel and to fight on the side of the Giants during Ragnarok, and if Varg's interpretation is true, that means during the end of all days I'm destined to be on the side of chaos and against the honored Aesir.

I´m a huge fan of Varg Vikernes and of Norse religion, but come on, you can´t possibly believe that stuff! The universe doesn´t care what your ancestry is.

[Osweo]

The Anglo Saxons did pretty well.
One of them thought the existence of the English nation obvious enough to write Historia Ecclesiastica Gens Anglorum, and that in SEVEN-HUNDRED-AND-FORTY-ONE A.D.! 741!!!

Southern Boy - you're WELL out of your depth here. :eek:

dictionary defination ; (Collins)
Thrymichka, I'm disgusted to see this bit of social engineering multicult propaganda in a respected dictionary. :eek:

Nation; an aggregation of people or peoples of one or more cultures, races, etc., organised into a single state.
States and Nations are often utterly unconnected! One is political, the other is ethnic! Many centuries of shared political life can cause some shift in ethnic sentiments and identities, but it's by no means guaranteed or regular!

Country; A territory distinguised by it's people culture, language, geography etc., an area of land distinguished by it's political autonomy; state.
Good GODS! A country is a slab of geography - little more!

So a Country is defined by culture etc and a Nation is not.
:confused:
Nation is from Latin natio, as in nativity, natal, renaissance, nascent. It's about BIRTH. I am aghast to see this being dismissed. :(

[Skandi]

I´m a huge fan of Varg Vikernes and of Norse religion, but come on, you can´t possibly believe that stuff! The universe doesn´t care what your ancestry is.

Now I've not read his stuff but from the looks of it I don't want too, although his deffinition apears to be too narrow there is some truth in having to have ancestral roots in the religion. However much the universe might not care the gods will

The dictionary is the 1979 version btw. It apears that social science and normal language use different definitions. Nothing very unusual there, it really doesn't matter which way you define the terms in this case though.

[Barreldriver]

Why compromise at all? I assure you I have spent more than one hundred hours researching my ancestry at genealogical libraries and atleast ten times that much time talking to relatives, visiting cemeteries, searching census records, and viewing online sources.

All that pales in comparison to the thousands of hours I have spent researching physical anthropology, racial diversity, human physiology, genetics, and sociology in libraries and online.

Then why when I call you out on proving your purity do you shy away? and why are you not able to grasp the most elementary concepts of human biodiversity described in this thread?

[Ulf]

Actually, it is men (XY) who have one chromosome and a half for the 23rd pair...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Karyotype.png/557px-Karyotype.png

Actually, despite the Y chromosome's smaller size, women only use one X chromosome. It's called X-inactivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-inactivation).


X-inactivation (also called lyonization) is a process by which one of the two copies of the X chromosome present in female mammals is inactivated. The inactive X chromosome is silenced by packaging into transcriptionally inactive heterochromatin. X-inactivation occurs so that the female, with two X chromosomes, does not have twice as many X chromosome gene products as the male, which only possess a single copy of the X chromosome (see dosage compensation). The choice of which X chromosome will be inactivated is random in placental mammals such as mice and humans, but once an X chromosome is inactivated it will remain inactive throughout the lifetime of the cell.

Despite having both X's, only one is utilized. The inactived chromosome is called a Barr body.

[Æmeric]

Hemophilia is caused by a missing gene that allows for blood clotting in the X chromosomes in the 23rd pair. Hemophilia is practically a male disease brought about by the fact that men only have the one X chromosome in the 23rd pair. It is almost unheard of in women who have 2 X chromosomes in the 23rd pair, implying that if one X chromosome is missing the gene, the other will have it. Essentially a women would have to be the daughter of a hemophiliac father & a mother who is a carrier of hemophilia in order to have the disorder. In cases where the bloodclotting gene is missing, should we assume this X chromosome is always the X chromosome that is inactive in females? How else to explain women are nearly always carriers, rarely sufferers. (I have never heard of a female hemophiliac). Otherwise sisters of hemophiliacs would have roughly the same chances of suffering from the disorder as their brothers but that is not the case.

[Ulf]

Hemophilia is caused by a missing gene that allows for blood clotting in the X chromosomes in the 23rd pair. Hemophilia is practically a male disease brought about by the fact that men only have the one X chromosome in the 23rd pair. It is almost unheard of in women who have 2 X chromosomes in the 23rd pair, implying that if one X chromosome is missing the gene the other will have it. Essentially a women would have to be the daughter of a hemophiliac father & a mother who is a carrier of hemophilia in order to have the disorder. In cases where the bloodclotting gene is missing, should we assume this X chromosome is always the X chromosome that is inactive in females? How else to explain women are nearly always carriers, rarely sufferers. (I have never heard of a female hemophiliac). Otherwise sisters of hemophiliacs would have roughly the same chances of suffering from the disorder as their brothers but that is not the case.

Everything I've read or heard about X-inactivation says that it is random. Though, I think there is some validity to what you say as I would think there would be some sort of check on the health of the chromosomes, that in the presence of a healthy X chromosome and a defective one, the defective one would be inactivated. Also, despite the one X's inactivation, some genes may still be expressed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/XlinkRecessive.jpg


Haemophilia A (also spelled Hemophilia A or Hæmophilia A) is a blood clotting disorder caused by a mutation of the factor VIII gene, leading to a deficiency in Factor VIII. It is the most common hemophilia. Inheritance is X-linked recessive; hence, males are affected while females are carriers or very rarely display a mild phenotype. 1 in 5,000 males are affected.


A mother who is a carrier has a 50% chance of passing the faulty X chromosome to her daughter, while an affected father will always pass on the affected gene to his daughters. A son cannot inherit the defective gene from his father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia#Genetics

Also, does anyone know if the inactivated X can be passed to child? I seem to think no, but I've been wrong before.

To add:

Expressed genes on the inactive X chromosome

A fraction of the genes along the X chromosome escape inactivation on the Xi. The Xist gene is expressed at high levels on the Xi and is not expressed on the Xa. Other genes are expressed equally from the Xa and Xi; mice contain few genes which escape silencing whereas up to a quarter of human X chromosome genes are expressed from the Xi. Many of these genes occur in clusters.

Many of the genes which escape inactivation are present along regions of the X chromosome which, unlike the majority of the X chromosome, contain genes also present on the Y chromosome. These regions are termed pseudoautosomal regions, as individuals of either sex will receive two copies of every gene in these regions (like an autosome), unlike the majority of genes along the sex chromosomes. Since individuals of either sex will receive two copies of every gene in a pseudoautosomal region, no dosage compensation is needed for females, so it is postulated that these regions of DNA have evolved mechanisms to escape X-inactivation. The genes of pseudoautosomal regions of the Xi do not have the typical modifications of the Xi and have little Xist RNA bound.

The existence of genes along the inactive X which are not silenced explains the defects in humans with abnormal numbers of the X chromosome, such as Turner syndrome (X0) or Klinefelter syndrome (XXY). Theoretically, X-inactivation should eliminate the differences in gene dosage between affected individuals and individuals with a normal chromosome complement, but in affected individuals the dosage of these non-silenced genes will differ as they escape X-inactivation.

[Ulf]

The gene for Factor VIII is located on the X chromosome (Xq28). The gene for factor VIII presents an interesting primary structure, as another gene is embedded in one of its introns.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Chromosome_X_Etude_Inactivation_X.PNG


We report a case of severe haemophilia A (<1% factor VIII level) in a female resulting from an interesting and improbable combination of events. The patient inherited a factor VIII intron 22 inversion from her carrier mother, as well as a second factor VIII inversion involving intron 22 that arose de novo on her paternally derived X chromosome. In addition, the patient's paternally derived X chromosome had been preferentially inactivated in 95+% of her somatic cells. The patient's mother, who was clinically unaffected, carried an intron 22 inversion as well and also showed nonrandom X-inactivation. The patient's mother had a brother with severe haemophilia A. It is therefore likely that the mother's inversion was on her maternally derived X chromosome. Since she was unaffected, it is likely that her inversion-bearing X was the one that was preferentially inactivated.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119089020/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


In total, about 15% of X-linked genes escape inactivation to some degree, and the proportion of genes escaping inactivation differs dramatically between different regions of the X chromosome, reflecting the evolutionary history of the sex chromosomes. An additional 10% of X-linked genes show variable patterns of inactivation and are expressed to different extents from some inactive X chromosomes. This suggests a remarkable and previously unsuspected degree of expression heterogeneity among females.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v434/n7031/abs/nature03479.html

Æmeric, what have you done? I've got to go to work in 30 minutes, there's not enough time man!

[lei.talk]

Well, it didn't used to be so blaringly obvious that I'm unpopular around here.a series of declarative statements
lacking any discernible foundation in reality
or ratiocinative connection

and brief snarky questions
in response to requests for explication
(in place of the hoped-for information)

is not regarded by most
as intelligent conversation.

to those that sought to lure him
in to a productive exchange of information...

Hate the sin and not the sinner.

the mahatma - Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi)

[Ulf]

Also, does anyone know if the inactivated X can be passed to child? I seem to think no, but I've been wrong before.


This image seems to imply that the inactive X is reactivated upon creation of sex cells, thus an inactive X could be passed.

Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=g4hC63UrPbUC&pg=PA305&lpg=PA305&dq=barr+body,+genetics+expression&source=bl&ots=Db88IXwDY9&sig=imswmJ5zXJaY4NMHyCysfZSDSNw&hl=en&ei=acm8SZalG82xtwerrYn4Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA307,M1)

Now I'm trying to find out exactly what genes are still expressed on the inactive X. No luck yet.

[Æmeric]

My understanding of reproduction is that the chromosomes passed on to children by their parents are not exact copies of either X chromosome in each pair but rather a new compilation of genetic material from each X chromosome in the parental pair. Randomly it would be approximately 50% from each 1/2 of the parental pair but the percentage from each parental pair would varie, for example 80%-20%, 60%-40% but on average would be 50%-50%. The only chromosomes that are passed exactly as in the parent everytime (except for mutations) are the Y chromosome - there is no opposite Y to swap genetic/DNA material with - and the X chromosome in the 23rd pair passed exactly as-is to daughters by their fathers.

[Ulf]

My understanding of reproduction is that the chromosomes passed on to children by their parents are not exact copies of either X chromosome in each pair but rather a new compilation of genetic material from each X chromosome in the parental pair. Randomly it would be approximately 50% from each 1/2 of the parental pair but the percentage from each parental pair would varie, for example 80%-20%, 60%-40% but on average would be 50%-50%. The only chromosomes that are passed exactly as in the parent everytime (except for mutations) are the Y chromosome - there is no opposite Y to swap genetic/DNA material with - and the X chromosome in the 23rd pair passed exactly as-is to daughters by their fathers.

Are you referring to chromosomal crossover?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Meiosis_Overview.svg/300px-Meiosis_Overview.svg.png


The forty-six chromosomes of the human diploid genome are composed of twenty-two pairs of autosomes, plus the X and Y chromosomes that determine sex. The X and Y chromosomes are very different from each other in their genetic composition but nonetheless pair up and even cross over during meiosis. These two chromosomes do have similar sequences over a small portion of their length, termed the pseudoautosomal region, at the far end of the short arm on each one.
http://www.answers.com/topic/chromosomal-crossover

With the sex chromosomes you aren't receiving a percentage. A woman receives 100% of both X's though some crossover may occur during prophase 1. Though Meiosis only occurs in the development of gametes.


In contrast to a gamete, the diploid somatic cells of an individual contain one copy of the chromosome set from the sperm and one copy of the chromosome set from the egg; that is, the cells of the offspring have genes expressing characteristics of both the father and the mother. A gamete's chromosomes are not exact duplicates of either of the sets of chromosomes carried in the somatic cells of the individual that produced the gametes. They can be hybrids produced through crossover (a form of genetic recombination) of chromosomes, which takes place in meiosis. This hybridization has a random element, and the chromosomes tend to be a little different in every gamete that an individual produces. This recombination and the fact that the two chromosome sets ultimately come from either a grandmother or a grandfather on each parental side account for the genetic dissimilarity of siblings.
http://www.answers.com/topic/gamete

[Ulf]

Now I'm trying to find out exactly what genes are still expressed on the inactive X. No luck yet.

Supposedly the psuedoautosomal region is the region that is still expressed, which is on the opposite side of the region coding for Hemophilia A. :shrug:

[SouthernBoy]

Nation; an aggregation of people or peoples of one or more cultures, races, etc., organised into a single state. My understanding of the word "nation" is that it is synonymous to the word "ethnicity."

A "nation" consists of one ethnic group, while a "country" might be multiethnic. Existing in vicinity with another ethnic group doesn't make one a member of that ethnic group, nor does living in the same country where an ethnicity predominates make you a member of that ethnicity.

Are all those that live in England today English? Is everyone that resides in Germany a German? Until the West once again adopts policies of self determination and ethnocentrism, their borders will remain simply as "lines in the sand."
Either way mixing has been happening continuously, about the only exceptions to this are extreamy isolated peoples like Iceland Mixing is one of the important means by which ethnicities are created. The crux of my argument is that one can't simultaneously be ethnically mixed and belong to an ethnic group.

This case is a clear example. raþbeorn is not only ethnically mixed, but racially mixed. I don't believe he can claim membership of any ethnicity or race.
Southern Boy - you're WELL out of your depth here. :eek:Æmeric was kind enough to create a new thread on ethnogenesis. I would be glad to continue this discussion there.
Then why when I call you out on proving your purity do you shy away?I'm not in any position to prove my "purity" and I'm also not interested in revealing my identity. :)
...why are you not able to grasp the most elementary concepts of human biodiversity described in this thread?Which concepts are those?

[phenix7192]

I signed up for this forum so I could read the posts since I was looking for my ancestors and I knew some of them were from England and France. I had no idea I would be signing into a hotbed of prejudice. I think you should be less concerned with how pure your blood is and more concerned with the type of person YOU are. My research is not to prove 100% European blood, but to find the truth which is much more important. Goodbye and good luck.

[The Lawspeaker]

Too bad, really. You would have fit right in as you seem to be prejudiced against us now while you didn't even seem to bother to ask for the reasons why a large group of people here feels the way they do.

I hope you will reconsider but if you don't: well.. the world won't stop moving.

[lei.talk]

I had no idea I would be signing into a hotbed of prejudice.
standards (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/standard) are quite different from prejudice (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prejudice).
I think you should be less concerned with how pure your blood is
and more concerned with the type of person YOU are.
after achieving personal excellence,
one becomes concerned with the excellence of one's progeny
and - then - interested in the excellence of one's ancestors.

there are some that confuse that sequence.
My research is not to prove 100% European blood,
but to find the truth which is much more important.
a select minority find the truth
that their blood is 100% european.
Goodbye and good luck.
and to you, an equally cordial valediction. :wavey001:

[phenix7192]

I should have clarified. Southern Boy makes my blood boil. He fits right into the southern caricature most people already think we are. There were many people who stood against him, but still I wonder if one drop of Indian blood is acceptable, how about two?:(

[The Lawspeaker]

I should have clarified. Southern Boy makes my blood boil. He fits right into the southern caricature most people already think we are. There were many people who stood against him, but still I wonder if one drop of Indian blood is acceptable, how about two?:(
A few drops. Real or imagined ? (it seems to be rather stylish these days to have Native ancestry so.. I just want to make sure) :coffee:

[phenix7192]

Ahhhh, that's just it. I don't know if I have any native blood. The thing is, I don't care whether I do or don't. I would just like to trace my ancestors but don't think I have the commitment necessary to do it. Anyway, thanks for being kind.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ahhhh, that's just it. I don't know if I have any native blood. The thing is, I don't care whether I do or don't. I would just like to trace my ancestors but don't think I have the commitment necessary to do it. Anyway, thanks for being kind.
Hmm.. There are people here that are involved in such stuff. My advise is to do two things: make an introduction thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=7) and ask your question here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=25) and be sure that if you post any pictures that you will have them removed (ask the Staff which you can recognise in their differently coloured usernames (except for red) in order to secure your privacy.

[Treffie]

Ahhhh, that's just it. I don't know if I have any native blood. The thing is, I don't care whether I do or don't. I would just like to trace my ancestors but don't think I have the commitment necessary to do it. Anyway, thanks for being kind.

Guess what? I don't care if you have native blood or not either :D

Btw, Southern Boy is no longer, he is kaput, ceased to be etc.

[Aemma]

Ok totally off-topic but: why did this person post in Barreldriver's fare-thee-well thread? :confused: