Independent Kurdistan: would you support it? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

StonyArabia

01-03-2019, 08:09 PM

Through a peaceful democratic process yes, by terror and force like they try it right now? No.

Iraqi Kurdistan tries it a right way and I support it.

YPG and PKK way? Hell no.

Shia Arabs conquered Iraqi Kurdistan, and strangled it's economy, no way they would get independence. Iraq had given them autonomy before but they fought a long war against the Iraq because the Talaban and Barzani families wanted to be the rulers. This why many Iraqi refugees in Europe are Iraqi Kurds not Arabs. Iraqi Kurdsitan is very weak, the prosperity it joined was finished when they lost the mini-Iraqi civil war between Shia Arabs and Kurds. We maintained neutrality. The irony is how America let that all happen, it basically stabbed them in the back.

Georgia

01-03-2019, 08:14 PM

Shia Arabs conquered Iraqi Kurdistan, and strangled it's economy, no way they would get independence. Iraq had given them autonomy during the Baathist times but they literally bit the hands that feeds them and now they are suffering. This why many Iraqi refugees in Europe are Iraqi Kurds not Arabs

Iraqi Kurdistan is the most developed, peaceful and prosperous part of Iraq, why would the Kurds want to remain in a state run by Arabs with radical tendencies who hate them anyway?

Teutone

01-03-2019, 08:15 PM

Shia Arabs conquered Iraqi Kurdistan, and strangled it's economy, no way they would get independence. Iraq had given them autonomy during the Baathist times but they literally bit the hands that feeds them and now they are suffering. This why many Iraqi refugees in Europe are Iraqi Kurds not Arabs

You gotta be more self critical towards your own nation, you expect the same from others.

The Kurds suffered a horrible chemical attack by Hussein.

They peacefully tried to run a Referendum, it was denied but it wont be their last try. Neverless this peaceful approach of the Iraqi Kurds is way better than what they try in Turkey and Syria.

StonyArabia

01-03-2019, 08:16 PM

Iraqi Kurdistan is the most developed, peaceful and prosperous part of Iraq, why would the Kurds want to remain in a state run by Arabs with radical tendencies who hate them anyway?

Shia Arabs won, they strangled their economy. All the prosperity they enjoyed vanished. I posted this article here but https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/kurds-continue-flee-iraq-kurdish-region-181028162624973.html

JosephK

01-03-2019, 08:17 PM

Only if they'll shut up about it...

StonyArabia

01-03-2019, 08:19 PM

Only if they'll shut up about it...

Well the funny thing is they expanded into land's that was no theirs like Assyrians and Armenians, and even some Arab lands. The Shia Arabs in Iraq are not going to show mercy and they did not, they totally destroyed their economy.

Personally I don't care if they want to get it or not.

Georgia

01-03-2019, 08:24 PM

Shia Arabs won, they strangled their economy. All the prosperity they enjoyed vanished. I posted this article here but https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/kurds-continue-flee-iraq-kurdish-region-181028162624973.html

No surprise here, everything the Arabs touch turns into a mess, they are the opposite of King Midas, but the saddest thing for me in this story is the new waves of Muslim refugees heading to the Greek islands.

Asheffar

01-03-2019, 08:25 PM

Yes middle eastern borders need to be redrawn

Bosniensis

01-03-2019, 08:26 PM

Only if they'll shut up about it...

https://youtu.be/DWsXIushtbI

KMack

01-03-2019, 08:29 PM

Well the funny thing is they expanded into land's that was no theirs like Assyrians and Armenians, and even some Arab lands. The Shia Arabs in Iraq are not going to show mercy and they did not, they totally destroyed their economy.

Personally I don't care if they want to get it or not.

It doesn't work that way. If as a people you can take other's lands then it is yours until someone takes it from you.

Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić

01-03-2019, 08:31 PM

yes

KMack

01-03-2019, 08:32 PM

History of the Kurds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kurds

StonyArabia

01-03-2019, 08:33 PM

No surprise here, everything the Arabs touch turns into a mess, they are the opposite of King Midas, but the saddest thing for me in this story is the new waves of Muslim refugees heading to the Greek islands.

How is it our fault? The Shia Arabs clearly want to keep the nation intact because they don't want to lose their newly founded power. They tried to bring the us into this conflict as Arab brothers, but we maintained neutrality, and the Shia Arabs had won the mini-civil war against the Kurds. They then decided to strangle it's economy which they successfully did. Shia Arabs are known to be tough fighters especially the Hashed forces that were sent there, they were really lucky that it did not morph into a big civil war because they would have left the whole North of Iraq into ruins. Also after the American invasion, Shia Arabs were expelled from Kirkuk, so some of them probably wanted revenge. Kirkuk was then recaptured by Iraq recently.

Aren

01-03-2019, 08:34 PM

Maybe, in their ancestral homeland Iran that is ofc.

Bosniensis

01-03-2019, 08:36 PM

No surprise here, everything the Arabs touch turns into a mess, they are the opposite of King Midas, but the saddest thing for me in this story is the new waves of Muslim refugees heading to the Greek islands.

https://previews.123rf.com/images/samum/samum1712/samum171200046/91591955-old-german-machine-gun-on-white-background.jpg

Nazarene

01-03-2019, 08:37 PM

Yes, given its done in the most democratic and peaceful manner possible. Domestic terrorism is not the answer, but hey the kurds after all are just invaders from northwestern Iran. They've stolen enough Assyrian land, they can't take the Nineveh Plains too.

JosephK

01-03-2019, 08:38 PM

Long ago I would have said 'yes' but I don't think the Kurds are being reasonable about it...

In some ways, as far as I could tell, Kurdish areas have in fact seemed "better off" than neighboring areas, but I don't know how they'd fair on their own.

Honestly, they're asking for too much and get in the way of, and complicate, already problem areas.

Also, I have a hard time believing that the PKK terrorists and other militia people would suddenly just be OK with a new state and go on to become productive citizens...

lonewolfcypriot

01-03-2019, 08:40 PM

Unlike the majority of Turkish people, I'm not really against the idea of an independent Kurdistan, as long as it is contained in Iraq and doesn't spread to Turkey!

Asheffar

01-03-2019, 08:41 PM

It doesn't work that way. If as a people you can take other's lands then it is yours until someone takes it from you.

Maybe prior to modern era,yes.But times of conquering is done

KMack

01-03-2019, 08:44 PM

Maybe prior to modern era,yes.But times of conquering is done

What is the modern era? How many new borders and new countries over the last 100 years?

KMack

01-03-2019, 08:46 PM

Why can't different ethnic groups live in multiple MENA countries and get along, or do that or do they not? Is there widespread discrimination state sponsored.

StonyArabia

01-03-2019, 08:52 PM

Unlike the majority of Turkish people, I'm not really against the idea of an independent Kurdistan, as long as it is contained in Iraq and doesn't spread to Turkey!

If Kurdistan happens, it will indeed start spreading it will not be contained in Iraq. Iraq will be split into three regions the Sunni Arab West/Center, Shia Arab South and Kurdish North. Many minority groups will be at a disadvantage. We also will see new renewed conflict to homogenize the areas, as Sunni Arabs in the South will be moved to the West, well some Shia Arabs well be moved in the South, and they might both attack the Kurdish region, or vice versa. This of course is not easy because there is very little difference between Sunni and Shia Arabs as many of them belong to the same tribes and in some cases even clans, and at times there are more tribal conflicts within these groups than with outsiders. Most likely if there was any split it will eventually be two regions an Arab region and Kurdish region. However Shia Arabs are not going to allow any split of the country in any way or form.

lonewolfcypriot

01-03-2019, 08:58 PM

If Kurdistan happens, it will indeed start spreading it will not be contained in Iraq. Iraq will be split into three regions the Sunni Arab West/Center, Shia Arab South and Kurdish North. Many minority groups will be at a disadvantage. We also will see new renewed conflict to homogenize the areas, as Sunni Arabs in the South will be moved to the West, well some Shia Arabs well be moved in the South, and they might both attack the Kurdish region, or vice versa. This of course is not easy because there is very little difference between Sunni and Shia Arabs as many of them belong to the same tribes and in some cases even clans, and at times there are more tribal conflicts within these groups than with outsiders. Most likely if there was any split it will eventually be two regions an Arab region and Kurdish region. However Shia Arabs are not going to allow any split of the country in any way or form.

In that case, I say NO to an independent Kurdistan.

Phenix

01-03-2019, 08:59 PM

Yes, but not in the actual state of the region, for now YPG and PKK must emancipate from US/Israeli subordination, because playing the useful idiot won't help them.

Why can't different ethnic groups live in multiple MENA countries and get along, or do that or do they not? Is there widespread discrimination state sponsored.

Egoism defines human specie, we have to transcend from this baseness and control our emotions, if every individual or group applied some self-critique, we could probably attenuate most of the world's tension.

Ice

01-03-2019, 09:05 PM

In iraq? my answer is yes.

Ayetooey

01-03-2019, 09:10 PM

Yes I support independent Kurdistan.

Catarinense1998

01-03-2019, 09:11 PM

How about the assyrians? Do they deserve a state too? How much numerous are the assyrians population in Iraq, Syria and Iran?

Mingle

01-03-2019, 09:11 PM

Not on western Armenian lands, no way.

Does it really make a huge difference if western Armenians lands are part of Turkey or Kurdistan? They would still have the same demographics and be ruled by a non-Armenian people.

Edit: In an independent Kurdistan, the Kurds would try to Kurdify the region whereas Turks wouldn't care as much about Armenian presence there. I guess they'd be more benevolent from an Armenian POV. So I see your opposition to it.

StonyArabia

01-03-2019, 09:16 PM

In that case, I say NO to an independent Kurdistan.

I don't think it will happen and it will cause new pandora box to open. The best thing is autonomy. Which they have in Iraq, but they are losing it slowly, like I said the Shia Arabs are not going to allow their nation to split. They even had to make reconciliation with the tribal leaders of the Western region in order not to leave Iraq. They also don't have much power in the Western regions due to the fact that tribal leaders hold more sway than the central Iraqi government does, they thought it was more trouble than it's worth. However they also want to keep strong arms on Kurdistan because it will lead to a split and they don't want Kirkuk to fall in their hands simply because it has large amounts of oil, and the area of Kurdistan is good for vacations, due to it's mild temperature and it even snows there.

Its very complicated situation and it has no easy solution.

JosephK

01-03-2019, 09:20 PM

Its very complicated situation and it has no easy solution.

That, my friend, that's for sure...

Ice

01-03-2019, 09:26 PM

It depends on turkey's position. When (or should i say if?) turkey and west(mostly pro-israel/pro-saudi arabia g'ments) will get along better, turkey will support kurdish independance in iraq. turkey can force sunni arabs, turkmens to make a deal with kurds.

edit: I'm not sure if an avarege TA poster is aware of this: turkey doesn't have any problem with kurds in iraq. they are mostly sunni, religious conservative and they can perfectly function as a bufferstate against 'shia' iran.

Babak

01-03-2019, 11:09 PM

Nope, it would cause too much havoc, even though there's enough of it already. Iraq, Iran, and Turkey would probably wipe out their existence all together. Iran has already executed many kurds for advocating it. Any further, they will literally die out as a people, no joke.

Thracian

01-03-2019, 11:17 PM

No.

They can have an independent country in Greece, Germany etc...

Moje ime

01-09-2019, 06:05 PM

Yes

rein

01-09-2019, 06:07 PM

I don’t really know much about this issue. Can someone enlighten me on whether Kurdistan existed historically as some sort of kingdom or governing body?

Kaspias

01-09-2019, 06:23 PM

No.

They can have an independent country in Greece, Germany etc...

in USA too :)

itilvolga

01-09-2019, 06:36 PM

Ice

01-09-2019, 09:01 PM

Yes

Kosovo je Kurdistan :cool:

Prinses

01-09-2019, 09:05 PM

No + won’t happen ;)

StonyArabia

01-09-2019, 11:05 PM

I don't think it will be viable

Luca

01-09-2019, 11:28 PM

If this would stop innocent people being killed and decrease discriminization. yes.
But I do not know enoug about the matter at hand

Moje ime

01-10-2019, 06:18 PM

No way on my homeland. During our Independence War, only 3541 Kurds fought for our homeland. 255728 Turk defended these lands, 34885 of them even died and their children became fatherless. These lands are ours, we will not give anyone. We have honourable blood on these lands, they do not. Still they can do whatever they want on another lands.

Does Turkey has right to chase them even inside Syria territory? And does Turkey government has right to kill their civiles inside Turkey's territory?

We can't deny they fight against ISIS while Erdogan probably cooperated with ISIS, now Kurds are used and abandoned by USA and Turkey.

Moje ime

01-10-2019, 06:21 PM

Kosovo je Kurdistan :cool:

Not the same situation. Albanians have own land Albania, also compared with Turkey Albanians in Serbia/Yugoslavia had many more civil rights as any other minority in any other European state, Kurds even can't use own language in Turkey officially.

Kosovo is historically cradle of Serbian state. Is south-eastern Turkey territory really a "cradle" of Turkish state?

Stefanos.tasidis

01-11-2019, 12:37 AM

YES ! Brace yourselves, Turkish members will get mad.
also PONTUS.

Bogdan

01-11-2019, 01:10 AM

Through a peaceful democratic process yes, by terror and force like they try it right now? No.

Iraqi Kurdistan tries it a right way and I support it.

YPG and PKK way? Hell no.

This

Crn Volk

12-27-2019, 10:20 AM

Yes

Oghuz

12-27-2019, 10:30 AM

In Iraq, Turkiye, Syria yes ... I am 25 % Sorani Kurd so I support it. Kurds have suffered enough and they deserve their independent state.

But they would not take an inch from Iran. If any stupid foreign funded Azeri, Kurd, Baloch tries to spread separatism inside Iran then I am their worst enemy.

Kyp

12-28-2019, 11:24 AM

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 11:34 AM

Bit hypocritical?

Iranian army is not persecuting Kurds for being born as Kurds. Can you guess who does ?

Iranian problem is with foreign funded elements like KDPI, PJAK not with Kurdish population. They are very well integrated in their own motherland.

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 01:09 PM

So you dumb friend dont know the west iran has %70 or more kurdish population. You dont let them have that land but you expect Turkey and other countries must give their lands to kurds. Do you really think that is possible? Lull

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 01:17 PM

Also the kurds in Turkey, less than %50 of them dont want to be independent. You guys dont live in Turkey but i know that issues. Im living in the middle of it. We live in peaceful but media doesnt show you that stuff like that. All of They show you is PKK, or aka YPG. Its origin from Israel and my kurdish friends know it. We lived anatolia together for 300 or more years. Because of Israel’s land hunger, we dont really want to disrubt it.

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 01:27 PM

If this would stop innocent people being killed and decrease discriminization. yes.
But I do not know enoug about the matter at hand

I would say that wholeheartedly, it wont stop, it will get worse and worse. Iran has executed many kurds because of it already. Seperatist kurds dying day by day. Im not really happy for it. I wish i can stop it but this topic doesnt work like that.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 03:14 PM

... l

Whose sock are you ?

Kivan

12-28-2019, 03:26 PM

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 03:30 PM

Yes. Just made their homeland in the place where they are originally from: Iran.

So they can get away from Turkey and other "host" countries where they live today and live with their Iranic brothers.

Kurds in Turkey are not migrated from anywhere. They are as much in their own land as any Turkish or Farsi person is in his/her land

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 03:32 PM

Whose sock are you ?

Listen, i never liked arguing. You cant expect other countries to give their lands to kurds if you dont want to do that either. Plus we had so many wars to keep our lands. So many turkish people died. We wont give any inches of our lands. Better shut up.

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 03:34 PM

Kurds in Turkey are not migrated from anywhere. They are as much in their own land as any Turkish or Farsi person is in his/her land

Kurds dna most similiar to iranians. Their original homeland is iran. They immigrated to Turkey and lived in peaceful. So you are here and saying that kurds must get the turkish lands but not iranian lands, their homeland. You must be stupid

Annihilus

12-28-2019, 03:36 PM

Iran will break up for sure, Turkey never

PaleoEuropean

12-28-2019, 03:38 PM

Yes and no, I support Kurdish independence but I don't support the Commies in charge.

Root

12-28-2019, 03:42 PM

isn't the Zagros mountain range in the western parts of Iran their original homeland where they came from before arriving and inhabiting empty places currently called Kurdistan, no?

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 03:43 PM

I would say that wholeheartedly, it wont stop, it will get worse and worse. Iran has executed many kurds because of it already. Seperatist kurds dying day by day. Im not really happy for it. I wish i can stop it but this topic doesnt work like that.

Iranic Kurds separated from Iranic Iran ? That is like saying Anatolian Turkish should separate from Rest of the Turkey.

PJAK, KDPI, KOMALA are all foreign funded organizations and they often receive our Ballistic Missiles landing right on their heads in their homes in Iraq or wherever they create bases with CIA money. You are too dumb to even realize that Iranian government is actually aligned with Turkey against US/Israeli funded Kurdish insurgency. PKK have virtually no presence in Iran and never has been supported by post revolution Iran. None of these organizations have any real ground support in Iranian Kurdistan based on one strong fact. Iranian Kurds are majority Shiites who would gain nothing by getting out of Shiite Umbrella of Iranian theocracy. They have their shiite and Kurdish identity secure inside Iran compared to Baathist Arab or Turkish experiences.

My own personal opinion is that Kurds should get a separate country in Non Iranic Countries. Inside Iran Kurds are just another Shiite Iranic ethnicity in a large Iranic country like Lurs, Persians etc.

Its a none issue anyways. Kurds will become problem in Turkey because of breeding rate, its not my or any Iranians concern.

Kyp

12-28-2019, 03:47 PM

Sunni Kurds will never have peace being between two chauvinistic powers like Turkey and Persians.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 03:48 PM

Kurds dna most similiar to iranians. Their original homeland is iran. They immigrated to Turkey and lived in peaceful. So you are here and saying that kurds must get the turkish lands but not iranian lands, their homeland. You must be stupid

Kurds have been habitating in their areas long before Oghuz Turks changed Anatolian DNA to 15-20 % "Turkish".

Kurds are Iranic and inside Iran they are just another well integrated Iranic ethnicity. They are a problem for Baathist Arabs and Turkish with whome they share nothing. Its not the same for Iran, never have been except for bandit Shikaks.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 03:49 PM

Iran will break up for sure, Turkey never

No one will break up. Turkey will become Kurdish majority in next 20-30 years as Erdoo accepted himself. I see no border change otherwise.

Negah

12-28-2019, 03:49 PM

Iran will break up for sure, Turkey never

Neither Iran nor Turkey are even close to breaking up what nonsense is that. If anything Iran is going to expand further as Afghanistan weakens when the US leaves. Herat area is essentially part of Iran even today, and northern Afghanistan's identity is rather fluid. For many centuries they were part of Iran and identified as such.

Ford

12-28-2019, 03:50 PM

Maybe, but I only think Iraqi Kurds will manage to achieve independece in the foreseeable future (or at least they are currently the ones with the greatest chances). I don't think they're much of a threat to the other countries they inhabit, but they might gain traction depending on what situation the other host nations put themselves in.

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 03:51 PM

You dont even know if the kurds get independent, they will get that iran part for sure. But keep talking your worthless words. Kurds wont get any part of Turkey

Kurds have been habitating in their areas long before Oghuz Turks changed Anatolian DNA to 15-20 % "Turkish".

Kurds are Iranic and inside Iran they are just another well integrated Iranic ethnicity. They are a problem for Baathist Arabs and Turkish with whome they share nothing. Its not the same for Iran, never have been except for bandit Shikaks.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 03:52 PM

Sunni Kurds will never have peace being between two chauvinistic powers like Turkey and Persians.

please explain to me how come 49 % non ethnic Persian Iranian state can be termed as Persians?

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 03:54 PM

please explain to me how come 49 % non ethnic Persian Iranian state can be termed as Persians?

Because of your government you idiot. Your disgusting worthless government force them to identify theirselves as persians. You asimilate them.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 03:54 PM

Neither Iran nor Turkey is even close to breaking up what nonsense is that. If anything Iran is going to expand further as Afghanistan weakens when the US leaves. Herat area is essentially part of Iran even today, and northern Afghanistan's identity is rather fluid. For many centuries they were part of Iran and identified as such.

Good post dadash.

I also see this happening, Afghanistan will collapse on its own because of Civil war. Herat needs to be retaken.

Hajimurad

12-28-2019, 03:57 PM

Hypocrite Nationalists who want break up neighbor country but scare disintegration of their own. Governments of Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq in XX century. cooperated against Kurdish movement. This is a reason why Kurds lose.
If Iran will be break up Turkish Kurdistan would turn into Afghanistan and Turkey would forever lost it. Reverse is also right. Syria lost control over Kurdish territories and this is a threat against Turkey, because Syrian Kurds descended from those, expelled by Kemalists. Iraqi Kurdistan is an American protectorate (local Nationalists dislike Communists from Turkey) and therefore not a danger for Turkey.

Negah

12-28-2019, 03:57 PM

Iranian army is not persecuting Kurds for being born as Kurds. Can you guess who does ?

Iranian problem is with foreign funded elements like KDPI, PJAK not with Kurdish population. They are very well integrated in their own motherland.

Kurds in Iran identify as Iranian, especially Kermanshahi Kurds. I lived in Sanandaj in Kurdistan for six months, and I definitely don't consider myself an expert on the Kurds in Iran or Turkey. But from what I saw people there are poorer than much of Iran and Sunni ( Iran's current regime being a Shia is not appealing to them. ) Also, they want Kurdish to be used alongside Persian in their regions. But the latter is pretty much the sentiment of non-Persian regions in Iran.

Kyp

12-28-2019, 03:59 PM

please explain to me how come 49 % non ethnic Persian Iranian state can be termed as Persians?

Because despite being a multiethnic or multilingual state it's runned by Persian Chauvinism since the Pahlavis.
Same goes for Turkey not taking sides here.
I can talk about some stories of my own family if you want.. but not on this thread.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 04:00 PM

You dont even know if the kurds get independent, they will get that iran part for sure. But keep talking your worthless words. Kurds wont get any part of Turkey

Kurds do not need to get any part of Turkey, triggered Sock. Kurds will become majority in your country without causing any war or anything and they will still be Turkish nationals. It is a fact, one that no one can deny or change. Turkish are being out bred simply. Iran is not causing that so stop blaming us.

Inside Turkey they are a culturally different entity. Inside Shiite Iran, they are just another Iranic ethnicity like Lurs, Persians, Mazandaranis etc. Do not try to equate Kurdish situation in Turkey with Kurds in Iran.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 04:05 PM

Because despite being a multiethnic or multilingual state it's runned by Persian Chauvinism since the Pahlavis.
Same goes for Turkey not taking sides here.

What are you talking about ? There is no Persian nationalistic entity inside Iran. Pahlavis were themselves Mazandaranis with Azeri, Gorji mixing. Khamenei is Azeri and so were Qajars before Pahlavis. Iran is a religious theocracy at best, far from being an ethno state.

Hajimurad

12-28-2019, 04:06 PM

isn't the Zagros mountain range in the western parts of Iran their original homeland where they came from before arriving and inhabiting empty places currently called Kurdistan, no?

Yes and specifically Kermanshah area, whe were historical Kurdish cities (Hulwan, Nehavend, Shahrazur, Kangavar). They spread to Taurus mountains (Bohtan and Hakkari), western Azerbaijan and plains of Mosul during IX-Xth centuries when were formed first Kurdish emirates (Shaddadid, Marwanid, Hasanwayhid, Hadhabani). After battle of Chaldiran (ethnic cleansing of Shia Turkmens by Salim Yavuz) and ethnic cleansing of Armenians in 1915 Kurds became a majority in Eastern Turkey.

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 04:07 PM

Kurds do not need to get any part of Turkey, triggered Sock. Kurds will become majority in your country without causing any war or anything and they will still be Turkish nationals. It is a fact, one that no one can deny or change. Turkish are being out bred simply. Iran is not causing that so stop blaming us.

Inside Turkey they are a culturally different entity. Inside Shiite Iran, they are just another Iranic ethnicity like Lurs, Persians, Mazandaranis etc. Do not try to equate Kurdish situation in Turkey with Kurds in Iran.

65 million turks and 15 milion kurds. Your theory is impossible.

sailorsally77

12-28-2019, 04:08 PM

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 04:13 PM

Kurds in Iran identify as Iranian, especially Kermanshahi Kurds. I lived in Sanandaj in Kurdistan for six months, and I definitely don't consider myself an expert on Kurds in Iran or Turkey. But from what I saw people there are poorer than much of Iran and Sunni ( Iran's current regime being a Shia is not appealing to them. ) Also, they want Kurdish to be used alongside Persian in their regions. But the latter is pretty much the sentiment of non-Persian regions in Iran.

My maternal grandfather was from a village near Sanandaj but grew up in the city. Most Kurds are tribal minded. Use of Kurdish language for education purpose is a need (for sole purpose of education) not some political demand. Shiite Kurds are in high numbers thats why Kurdish nationalist organizations fail to appeal to Rojhilat kurds.

Kivan

12-28-2019, 04:25 PM

Kurds in Turkey are not migrated from anywhere. They are as much in their own land as any Turkish or Farsi person is in his/her land
The majority of the provinces in Turkey where Kurds are majority today, used to be inhabited by Armenians and others. It's well known that most people in many regions of Eastern Turkey are just assimilated. We don't know how many people there were assimilated/Kurdified in Turkey and other countries.

Ethnic Kurds (i mean, not assimilated/mixed) get Iranian in the first place in the gedmatch oracles. You like it or not.

No one will break up. Turkey will become Kurdish majority in next 20-30 years as Erdoo accepted himself. I see no border change otherwise.
It's just your wishfull thinking. They always had bigger birth rates for several decades and still are minority in the country. More easy we re-populate Southeastern Turkey with other Turks/Turkics (yes, you know what's our methods) than Kurds become majority in our own lands.

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 04:26 PM

65 million turks and 15 milion kurds. Your theory is impossible.

Your numbers are intentionally wrong. Total Turkish are 55-60 million (70-75 %) and Kurds are 16-17 million (18-20 %) (by CIA country fact book). It is not my theory. Your president himself said it and it makes sense as well because Kurdish birthrate is almost double the average Turkish. Demographic instability is a weapon.

Again, as an Iranian it is none of my concern what turkish government decides for the future of Turkey. I was merely commenting on incoming ethnic change in Turkey.

Adamm

12-28-2019, 04:30 PM

Yes, I support Kurdistan (in Iraq) because they are already autonomous and they make up a majority in their province. I don't support it in Turkey or Syria.

Crimson Winds

12-28-2019, 04:44 PM

Do I want another country in live map with 7 different colors? Nah

Root

12-28-2019, 04:47 PM

Yes and specifically Kermanshah area, whe were historical Kurdish cities (Hulwan, Nehavend, Shahrazur, Kangavar). They spread to Taurus mountains (Bohtan and Hakkari), western Azerbaijan and plains of Mosul during IX-Xth centuries when were formed first Kurdish emirates (Shaddadid, Marwanid, Hasanwayhid, Hadhabani). After battle of Chaldiran (ethnic cleansing of Shia Turkmens by Salim Yavuz) and ethnic cleansing of Armenians in 1915 Kurds became a majority in Eastern Turkey.

this might have been the reason why the vast majority of Turkish members disagree on most things like this controversial historical topic that Kurds are, apparently, indigenous folk living in the eastern Turkey and should not have any opportunities to get independence. Don't you mind to derail this thread a bit because someone is clearly using an inaccurate and exaggerated ridiculously drawn map of the Persian influence and presence in the significant parts in glorious and noble Kavkaz shown in his signature? I assume you might already have noticed it, as well :D

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 04:50 PM

The majority of the provinces in Turkey where Kurds are majority today, used to be inhabited by Armenians and others. It's well known that most people in many regions of Eastern Turkey are just assimilated. We don't know how many people there were assimilated/Kurdified in Turkey and other countries.

Ethnic Kurds (i mean, not assimilated/mixed) get Iranian in the first place in the gedmatch oracles. You like it or not.

They identify as Kurds and not Turkish and that is what matters right now. Turkish also identity as Turkish even though majority of their DNA is not Turkic.

And yes ethnic Kurds are as much Iranic as Persians. Why would I not like it ?

It's just your wishfull thinking. They always had bigger birth rates for several decades and still are minority in the country. More easy we re-populate Southeastern Turkey with other Turks/Turkics (yes, you know what's our methods) than Kurds become majority in our own lands.

Where have I said that I want Kurds to replace Turkey ? It is neither my wish nor my concern since I am neither Turkish nor Kurdish from Turkey. Turks are being out bred you like it or not.

Your logic is flawed. Kurdish birthrate is sustained while it is the Turkish birthrate that got dropped which is causing this ethnic change in future.

You are trying to hint towards a genocide of Kurds inside in Turkey like the Armenian one. Lets see how viable it is. It is almost impossible in modern days. If state of turkey tries it then enemies of Turkey (there are plenty, Iran is not one) will start funneling money and strategic weaponry to Kurdish militant organizations and they will unleash hell on Turkish population resulting into a civil war. Ballistic and cruise missiles (Like houthis) will be fired upon Turkish infrastructure esp against points where foreign investment is coming (that what enemies will want). There will be drone attacks, Hava Kuvetleri will bomb villages, in retaliation there will be daily bomb blasts and ambushes in major cities. Tourism industry will go down, foreign investment will run away, government will try to seek allies and in return will have to make deals which favor allies not turkey (Iran Russian Alliance in Syria). Death, Chaos, Weakened State, Torn up federation. Remember something, civil war never has a winner. Countries get torn apart and become dependent for ages on their allies pretty much like Suriye, Iraq, Afghanistan. Turkey is like a financial midget in front of KSA yet KSA with its Giant economy, Large air force and support from US failed miserably against Houthis very recently. US itself failed against Taliban. Ultra nationalists dreaming of genocides are imbeciles with no knowledge of modern warfare. You go nuts on your minority, you give your enemies new and committed allies. Post WWII, almost no suppression has ever succeeded which is why Erdogan is not bombing Kurds daily.

I am no enemy of Turkey I am just stating what we have seen in recent times. If turkish are clever they will have to increase their birthrates.

lameduck

12-28-2019, 05:06 PM

Kurdistan would be a land locked country among large neighbours , it would be just playground for power politics .
Borders should stay as they are in the region , a better assimilation of all ethnicities under plularalistic democracy where federation is reletively weaker is only feaible solution for multi ethnic countries, not every one can apply han chinese model of monolith and can acheive success(high economic growth) since diversity is huge in other countries.

Kyp

12-28-2019, 05:10 PM

If turkish are clever they will have to increase their birthrates.

This will never be an option for civilized people. Best way would be to enhance infrastructure of South-Eastern regions and focus on education to remove tribalistic structures of Kurds the birth rates will decrease by itself.
This problem is not only a problem of Turkey but a problem the whole modern world has to face in the coming centuries.

lameduck

12-28-2019, 05:15 PM

This will never be an option for civilized people. Best way would be to enhance infrastructure of South-Eastern regions and focus on education to remove tribalistic structures of Kurds the birth rates will decrease by itself if Kurds are able.

increasing birth rates is very unrealistic , short sighted and primitive way of increasing dominance , first its mathematically not possible since gap between turks and kurds is very big in numbers , seconly overpopulation can be a huge issue in long term as countries can stuck in middle income trap.

Negah

12-28-2019, 05:33 PM

Because despite being a multiethnic or multilingual state it's runned by Persian Chauvinism since the Pahlavis.
Same goes for Turkey not taking sides here.
I can talk about some stories of my own family if you want.. but not on this thread.

As far as Iran is concerned IMO it is not as simple as that. The Qajars were north Azeris that settled in Mazanbdran and rose to power.

Reza Shah was Mazandarani and part Georgian and his wife the mother of Mohammed Reza Shah was from Baku and was ethnic Azerbaijani. Mohammed Reza Shah's wife, Shahbanu is half Azeri and half Gilaki. Reza Shah II is married to an ethnic Azerbaijani.

Khomeini was Persian from central Iran but his family is originally from Khorasan. Bazargan and BaniSadr were both Ethnic Azeri, and they were the first ministers of the Islamic Republic. Khamenei is half Azeri and half Mashahadi and Identifies as Azeri because his father made Azerbaijani the language of his household. That is his mother tongue.

Ethnic identity is much more complex in Iran. As you can see in Iran rulers are seldom ethnic Persians. So Chauvinism is really a very inaccurate word to identify these regimes.

Negah

12-28-2019, 05:40 PM

Because of your government you idiot. Your disgusting worthless government force them to identify theirselves as persians. You asimilate them.

Not as simple as that. Are you telling me Gilakis, Mazandarnis, Tats, Talyash, Lurs, Bakhtiari's, etc are forced to be Persians?

Kyp

12-28-2019, 05:49 PM

As far as Iran is concerned IMO it is not as simple as that. The Qajars were north Azeris that settled in Mazanbdran and rose to power.

Reza Shah was Mazandarani and part Georgian and his wife the mother of Mohammed Reza Shah was from Baku and was ethnic Azerbaijani. His wife was half Azeri and half Mazandarani.

Khomeini was Persian from central Iran. Bazargan and BaniSadr were both Ethnic Azeri, and they were the first ministers of the Islamic Republic. Khamenei is half Azeri and half Mashahadi and Identifies as Azeri because his father made Azerbaijani the language of his household. That is his mother tongue.

Ethnic identity is much more complex in Iran. As you can see in Iran rulers are seldom ethnic Persians.

Yes but we all know that Iranian government (since Pahlavis) views the so called "Azeris" as an Iranian people and doesn't acknowledge the complex ethnic background of the Azerbaijani people. This was well played by Iranians, since their Azerbaijani population now mostly feels Iranian and doesn't seek Seperation. And unfortunetly I even think Turkish will die out in the future out of social pressure and urbanization. As for my father's family they weren't allowed to move back to Azerbaijan region after fall of Qajar regime. Some families of our tribe even took Persian surnames in exchange for the older tribal ones. Regional identities and languages are dying out in Iran for greater "Persian identity". Just sad imo from an outside perspective. Good for nationalistic purposes. Bad for remaining of culture & language plurality.

Fedora

12-28-2019, 05:54 PM

Your numbers are intentionally wrong. Total Turkish are 55-60 million (70-75 %) and Kurds are 16-17 million (18-20 %) (by CIA country fact book). It is not my theory. Your president himself said it and it makes sense as well because Kurdish birthrate is almost double the average Turkish. Demographic instability is a weapon.

Again, as an Iranian it is none of my concern what turkish government decides for the future of Turkey. I was merely commenting on incoming ethnic change in Turkey.

lol those numbers are not true at all. its 10 million kurmanjis and 3 million zazas

Hajimurad

12-28-2019, 05:55 PM

As far as Iran is concerned IMO it is not as simple as that. The Qajars were north Azeris that settled in Mazanbdran and rose to power.

Reza Shah was Mazandarani and part Georgian and his wife the mother of Mohammed Reza Shah was from Baku and was ethnic Azerbaijani. Mohammed Reza Shah's wife, Shahbanu is half Azeri and half Mazandarani. Reza Shah II is married to an ethnic Azerbaijani.

Khomeini was Persian from central Iran. Bazargan and BaniSadr were both Ethnic Azeri, and they were the first ministers of the Islamic Republic. Khamenei is half Azeri and half Mashahadi and Identifies as Azeri because his father made Azerbaijani the language of his household. That is his mother tongue.

Ethnic identity is much more complex in Iran. As you can see in Iran rulers are seldom ethnic Persians. So Chauvinism is really a very inaccurate word to identify these regimes.

Safavi, Afshar, Qajar and Pahlavi dynasties moved large number of tribals (Kurds, Turks, Lurs) from one area to another. Were Gilakis, Mazandaranis and other sedentary Iranics involved in this deportations and where they resettled?

Negah

12-28-2019, 06:06 PM

Yes but we all know that Iranian government (since Pahlavis) views the so called "Azeris" as an Iranian people and doesn't acknowledge the complex ethnic background of the Azerbaijani people. This was well played by Iranians, since their Azerbaijani population now mostly feels Iranian and doesn't seek Seperation. And unfortunetly I even think Turkish will die out in the future out of social pressure and urbanization. As for my father's family we weren't allowed to move back to Azerbaijan region after fall of Qajar regime. Some families of our tribe even took Persian surnames in exchange for the older tribal ones. Regional identities and languages are dying out in Iran for greater "Persian identity". Just sad imo from an outside perspective. Good for nationalistic purposes. Bad for remaining of culture & language plurality.

Sorry to hear that.

Reza Shah was an illiterate man that rose to power. I know many Iranians who live outside Iran worship him and his son because the Islamic Republic has become such a tragedy and disaster. But IMO the Pahlavi rule in Iran was replete with poor decisions that ultimately led to the current regime. Reza Shah and his son were both not very prudent and were disastrous rulers.

There is language discrimination in Iran just like there is religious or sex discrimination in the current regime. But having said that many things are slowly changing in Iran for the better.

Negah

12-28-2019, 06:08 PM

Safavi, Afshar, Qajar and Pahlavi dynasties moved large number of tribals (Kurds, Turks, Lurs) from one area to another. Were Gilakis, Mazandaranis and other sedentary Iranics involved in this deportations and where they resettled?

I am not so sure.

Kyp

12-28-2019, 06:32 PM

Sorry to hear that.

Reza Shah was an illiterate man that rose to power. I know many Iranians who live outside Iran worship him and his son because the Islamic Republic has become such a tragedy and disaster. But IMO the Pahlavi rule in Iran was replete with poor decisions that ultimately led to the current regime. Reza Shah and his son were both not very prudent and were disastrous rulers.

There is language discrimination in Iran just like there is religious or sex discrimination in the current regime. But having said that many things are slowly changing in Iran for the better.

Yeah let's not get into problems of IR :D
I really hope so

Ritz06

12-28-2019, 11:07 PM

Sorry to hear that.

Reza Shah was an illiterate man that rose to power. I know many Iranians who live outside Iran worship him and his son because the Islamic Republic has become such a tragedy and disaster. But IMO the Pahlavi rule in Iran was replete with poor decisions that ultimately led to the current regime. Reza Shah and his son were both not very prudent and were disastrous rulers.

There is language discrimination in Iran just like there is religious or sex discrimination in the current regime. But having said that many things are slowly changing in Iran for the better.

unfurtently my family did know the shah.. not proud

Oghuz

12-28-2019, 11:47 PM

Sorry to hear that.

Reza Shah was an illiterate man that rose to power. I know many Iranians who live outside Iran worship him and his son because the Islamic Republic has become such a tragedy and disaster. But IMO the Pahlavi rule in Iran was replete with poor decisions that ultimately led to the current regime. Reza Shah and his son were both not very prudent and were disastrous rulers.

There is language discrimination in Iran just like there is religious or sex discrimination in the current regime. But having said that many things are slowly changing in Iran for the better.

I am not a Shahi fan but I give credit to Reza Khan for two simple facts. He dealt with anti Iranian elements in times of chaos in his early era. Mahabad Shikaki problem was dealt with and so was Sheikh Khazal rebellion.

Negah

12-29-2019, 11:32 AM

I am not a Shahi fan but I give credit to Reza Khan for two simple facts. He dealt with anti Iranian elements in times of chaos in his early era. Mahabad Shikaki problem was dealt with and so was Sheikh Khazal rebellion.

Reza Shah was a capable man and did accomplish much to centralize the power in Iran and modernize the country. Iran that he took over was 50% nomadic and tribal (Kurds, Arabs, Lurs, Qashqai, Bakhtiari's, etc), and to move Iran into the 20th century was no an easy task especially when both the Russian and the English were creating subversive movements within the country among tribal Iranians.

But in the end, he was an illiterate man and who failed to create a representative government in Tehran and ultimately, in the end, he disgraced himself by allying Iran with Nazi Germany. His son was a complete idiot.

Negah

12-29-2019, 11:38 AM

unfurtently my family did know the shah.. not proud

Nothing wrong with that. The Pahlavi regime was not evil, it was highly flawed. One can argue they were much less flawed compared to the current regime

Ritz06

12-29-2019, 11:42 AM

Nothing wrong with that. The Pahlavi regime was not all evil, it was highly flawed. One can argue they were much less flawed compared to the current regime

my family was rich and kind of famous. they were snobbish.

Ritz06

12-29-2019, 11:50 AM

my family was rich and kind of famous. they were snobbish.

they was at the 2,500 year celebration of the Persian Empire

Negah

12-29-2019, 12:28 PM

they was at the 2,500 year celebration of the Persian Empire

A few years later after that ill-advised celebration the Pahlavi Dynasty came to an end.

Armenian Bishop

12-30-2019, 12:41 AM

isn't the Zagros mountain range in the western parts of Iran their original homeland where they came from before arriving and inhabiting empty places currently called Kurdistan, no?

In regions of present day Eastern Turkey, also known as the Ottoman Armenian Highlands, or the Western Armenian Highlands, Kurds didn't settle into "empty spaces" because a lot of Armenians were already there. The Kurds were semi-nomadic trouble makers whom brought their livestock with them, but the livestock trampled across Armenian Farms in those areas; consequently, hostility and trouble would lead to strife and conflict between Armenians and Kurds. Also, Kurdish Chieftains overtaxed their Armenians neighbors, and behaved like robber barons. Kurds could do that because they were backed by the Ottoman Sultan. Kurds were backed by the Ottoman Sultans simply because Kurds are Islamic, while Armenians are Christian. Kurds complain now, after they looted, raped and murdered Armenians a century ago. Very Interesting!

Armenian Bishop

12-30-2019, 12:45 AM

It's funny how Turkey is now plagued by problems from the Kurds, yet previously, both Kurds and Turks were complicit in working together to obliterate Armenian and Assyrian Christians.

IrisSelene

12-30-2019, 02:53 AM

why is everyone always fighting in those areas tho

Crn Volk

07-11-2020, 12:04 AM

why is everyone always fighting in those areas tho

Good question

Odelia

01-03-2023, 12:17 AM

Although they're unfortunately a Muslim majority, I still support them over their ayrab counterparts. This means I would want a Kurdistan over Iraq any day! At least they're trying to be civilised and are advancing their nation, and making ties with Israel, which is a smart and strategic move, unlike going corrupt like Iraq and Syria who hate Jews and anyone who isn't them, and treating minorities like shit. Kurds from what I read treat women better, at least compared to palestinians and Iraqis. I do hope Kurdistan one day engulfs Iraq and anything that's Arab-related in that country because I am honestly sick of pan-arabism. Oh and Kurds speak an Indo European language, so we do want this language family to spread particularly in the semitic arabic majority of Iraq. That said, i have a soft spot for Aramaic because Jesus spoke it, so we can preserve that...

Pro.crasti.nation

01-03-2023, 12:31 AM

If they could create it without setting the Middle East and Turkey on fire, yes.

Kurds do seem to have gotten a shitty deal out of the last century's map makers, maybe this century will treat them differently.

Teutone

01-03-2023, 12:40 AM

Through a peaceful democratic process yes, by terror and force like they try it right now? No.

Iraqi Kurdistan tries it a right way and I support it.

YPG and PKK way? Hell no.

Id revoke that statement, I would not support Kurdistan at all.

They behave like Apes in France and Turkey.

I am glad Erdogan is making peace with Assad, hopefully they start a combined invasion against Kurds and by that also kick out the US troops.

chinshen

01-03-2023, 01:07 AM

Not on occupied Assyrian lands.

Applesandoranges

01-03-2023, 01:49 AM

Odelia

01-03-2023, 01:59 AM

Not on occupied Assyrian lands.
Kurds are far from angels, but they have a right to be there just as much as Assyrians do! They have historic ties to the land just as much you guys do. The iranic ethnic groups from northwestern iran have reached northern iraq in history, such as as the medes in mesopotamia. Semites weren't the only ones there!

Oh and sorry to say that assyrians are confused people after my experience with them here in Detroit! They're awesome mind you, but they call themselves so many names that I don't know whether to laugh or pity them, like aramean, syriac, iraqi/syrian christian, chaldean...There is an identity crisis within the group that confuses foreigners who want to study them. Whilst i prefer an assyrian company over a muslim kurd, I have to call a spade a spade, because at least kurds are more united with one name, and as well as Jews (mizrahi, ashkenazi, etc, they're all united by the Jewish name). I also don't think you're of pure akkadian and ancient assyrian descent, and this is why you guys are divided on the name because you're also not too certain of your own history. You guys speaking aramaic kinda hints that you have predominant Aramean ancestry. You also look more like lebanese and syrians than you do Iraqi arabs, mandeans and Iranians.

Your history is very confusing and even modern historians don't quite assert you're actual descendants of ancient assyrians, and instead they phrase it like "modern Assyrians believe they're descended from ancient assyrians and akkadians". I mean it's sad, and I hope it is one day proven who you guys are actually descended from, and if it's ancient assyrians or not.

chinshen

01-03-2023, 02:47 AM

Kurds are far from angels, but they have a right to be there just as much as Assyrians do! They have historic ties to the land just as much you guys do. The iranic ethnic groups from northwestern iran have reached northern iraq in history, such as as the medes in mesopotamia. Semites weren't the only ones there!

Oh and sorry to say that assyrians are confused people after my experience with them here in Detroit! They're awesome mind you, but they call themselves so many names that I don't know whether to laugh or pity them, like aramean, syriac, iraqi/syrian christian, chaldean...There is an identity crisis within the group that confuses foreigners who want to study them. Whilst i prefer an assyrian company over a muslim kurd, I have to call a spade a spade, because at least kurds are more united with one name, and as well as Jews (mizrahi, ashkenazi, etc, they're all united by the Jewish name). I also don't think you're of pure akkadian and ancient assyrian descent, and this is why you guys are divided on the name because you're also not too certain of your own history. You guys speaking aramaic kinda hints that you have predominant Aramean ancestry. You also look more like lebanese and syrians than you do Iraqi arabs, mandeans and Iranians.

Your history is very confusing and even modern historians don't quite assert you're actual descendants of ancient assyrians, and instead they phrase it like "modern Assyrians believe they're descended from ancient assyrians and akkadians". I mean it's sad, and I hope it is one day proven who you guys are actually descended from, and if it's ancient assyrians or not.

stop talking from your ass about things that you know nothing about.
We don't claim to be Akkadians or any other shit group. We know who we are, and we know that we descent from ancient Assyrians and don't need to prove to any idiots like yourself our history or our connection to our ancient lands.

PlattitüdenPaule

01-03-2023, 03:03 AM

As long as its on Mars and I dont ever have to see a Kurd in my life again I`m all for it.

Demhat

01-03-2023, 03:28 AM

Only haters and butthurt Heimscheißer would say no.

Demhat

01-03-2023, 03:33 AM

I dont support it at all, since i dont see it happen in Turkey or Iran. How would they claim those lands from what are superpowers in middleeast?

Kurds in Syria and especially Iraq are just lucky because of western intervention. Otherwise kurdistan would never had existed

Funny considering that the current borders of your Middle East and the defence of those borders are just based on the colonialization by these superpowers and the weapons they sold to these new states. Speak for yourself or shut up if you have nothing to contribute you absolute clown. Oh and post under your own flag you wannabe Taliban.

And than to have the audacity to talk about lucky and western intervention. If we were lucky with western intervention we would have dozen of states like Arabs right now or at least be armed to the teeth. "lucky"... said the absolute tool. Lucky is the one who can bomb you from the sky with western made F16 and newer jets and drones they copied from Israel. While you have to fight with AKs

Babak

01-03-2023, 03:49 AM

I knew this thread would turn into a shitfest lol

Odelia

01-03-2023, 07:53 AM

stop talking from your ass about things that you know nothing about.
We don't claim to be Akkadians or any other shit group. We know who we are, and we know that we descent from ancient Assyrians and don't need to prove to any idiots like yourself our history or our connection to our ancient lands.
Oh look, you're proving my point more and more you dimwit! :picard1: Now you're not claiming to be a Akkadian? FFS, 50% of y'all claim akkadian decent as well, just as you do Babylonian and Sumerian! :bored: Fix your identity crisis first and then come at me like an angry teenager! You guys can be something out of Fight Club with your split personalities sometimes. Yes you idiot, you need to prove your assertions or else no one will take you fucking seriously, particularly in the history book! Stop dreaming and talking out of your ass yourself, just fucking prove your shit and we will accept you as what you are, my aramean/assyrian/akkadian/syriac/chaldean/[insert more mesopotamian names], brethren! :picard1:

Applesandoranges

01-03-2023, 08:46 AM

Funny considering that the current borders of your Middle East and the defence of those borders are just based on the colonialization by these superpowers and the weapons they sold to these new states. Speak for yourself or shut up if you have nothing to contribute you absolute clown. Oh and post under your own flag you wannabe Taliban.

And than to have the audacity to talk about lucky and western intervention. If we were lucky with western intervention we would have dozen of states like Arabs right now or at least be armed to the teeth. "lucky"... said the absolute tool. Lucky is the one who can bomb you from the sky with western made F16 and newer jets and drones they copied from Israel. While you have to fight with AKs

Dude, if US never fucked up Saddam, i dont think there would even be a kurdistan province in iraq.

Youre right about colonization, but i still dont see at all how kurds would wrestle lands from iran and turkey. I just dont. Im not against it(seriously, all power to the kurds), i just dont support it. I dont support any ethno-states, no matter what, if it means to topple "superpowers". No personal feelings here(if i knew they could do it, and most kurds support it, which im not even sure, got an impression that such wish for ethno-state is amongst a minority of kurds only in both Iran and turkey by non-kurds from these countries, but im not fully sure? If so, i would support it), so you dont need to get personal either.

I would rather support "kurdistan" as a province instead in each country, like theyre sort of now in turkey and Iran(if you can call them that), rather than as a ethno-state(which i get the impression kurdistan is meant to be).

Arent US funding you guys? If youre indeed just fighting with AK's, thats something though, not sure how much an impact US support have for kurds
https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/syria-kurd-base-used-by-us-led-coalition-hit-by-turkish-drone/

Zoro

01-03-2023, 11:43 AM

Only haters and butthurt Heimscheißer would say no.

I’m all for every ethnic group freely speaking their language and promoting their culture and traditions and even running their own state or region like the various states in USA or Kurdistan Iraq but do really think that a landlocked independent Kurdistan inside Borders of Turkey would be good for Kurds knowing that it would be very poor?

Iraqi Kurdistan is doing reasonably well because it’s not fully independent from Iraq and gets oil money from Iraq but even then most of the money stays with the ruling tribe the Barzanis. As you know Kurds are very tribal just like Pashtuns . That’s why something similar is happening in Afghanistan with the ruling Taliban tribes main difference being they don’t have all the oil money. I have relatives who are doing well in Iraqi Kurdistan but it’s because they are somehow connected with ruling Barzanis

As you know Afghanistan became independent from Iran in the 18th century and it’s also a landlocked country like a Kurdistan would be. Right now thousands of people are dying from starvation! There are no jobs. Poor people are freezing in the winter because thousands don’t have a roof over their head never mind heaters ! Millions ofcourse have fled the country. With no food and no roof thousands are sick but there’s no healthcare!

Look at neigboring Khorasan and Sistan province in Iran though and it’s very different than across the border in Afghanistan. Do you that the Afghans would have been in this super bad condition today with thousands dying (worst than most African countries) if they were still part of Iran ?

In fact, without oil and natural gas other Central Asian landlocked countries such as Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan would also be quite poorer

Also Turkey being scared of Kurds seperating banning Kurdii in schools for a while to try to erase separate identity of Turks from Kurds was a bad idea and created more separatist Kurds and I’m glad they changed their policy on it. All in all though Kurds are doing pretty well being part of Turkey. They are in government positions, also able to get descent work, put food on the table and live quite well. Ofcourse Turkey was created by Kurds and Turks working together just like they did in Ottomen empire.

You know what if Kurds use their heads they will also realize that the percentage of school kids that are Kurds is even higher than the percentage of Kurds in Turkey population which means kurd population growing faster than Turk population and in a few years it will be a Turkey run by both kurds and Turks.

Turkey has alot of natural beauty and some of my relatives in Iraqi Kurdistan spend their summers on the Mediterranean in homes they own in Antalya and Mersin

If you go to Kandahar Afghanistan you’ll think you went back in time before Jesus time

https://youtu.be/wmbnnBjGDls

Some people even have to live in the middle of desert because they can’t afford to pay $15 per month rent for a broken hut inside Kandahar !
Besides not having food can you imagine sleeping when at night temperature is 4 degrees celcius

https://youtu.be/EVZY2jY-A1o

Mejgusu

01-03-2023, 11:59 AM

Personally I would say Kurds deserve an own state. But I think they would dispute with Armenians and other groups besides of Turks/Iranians. Maybe Near East needs a conference without foreign powers to define their borders. In the past I was against an independent Kurdish nation but nearly everywhere they were ignored and treated badly, now some say they are backward people. Without any investments, any schools/education, any roads to other places many were kept inside their own world. But I think that should happen without violence against civilians, terrorists like pkk aren’t fighting for freedom.

Iran will break up for sure, Turkey never

You opened a thread about Iranian women who want freedom, but say such thinks too. That is something what I noticed among Turks, hating Iran and Iranians but celebrating current women freedom movement against Mullahs? Every time I am saying that they say we just hate the regime there but usually they are just insulting Iran and Iranians.

Demhat

01-03-2023, 12:52 PM

Dude, if US never fucked up Saddam, i dont think there would even be a kurdistan province in iraq.

If it wasn't for the Brits and French to begin with Saddam andthis Iraq thing wouldn't even exist in the first place. Know the history.

Youre right about colonization, but i still dont see at all how kurds would wrestle lands from iran and turkey. I just dont. Im not against it(seriously, all power to the kurds), i just dont support it. I dont support any ethno-states, no matter what, if it means to topple "superpowers". No personal feelings here(if i knew they could do it, and most kurds support it, which im not even sure, got an impression that such wish for ethno-state is amongst a minority of kurds only in both Iran and turkey by non-kurds from these countries, but im not fully sure? If so, i would support it), so you dont need to get personal either.

The lack of ethno states in that very region is the reason for political instability for centuries. The countries which suffer most under civil war and other political turmoils are those fake states which are not based on ethnic origins. See Syria, see Afghanistan, Pakistan see Iraq and so on. They are basically designed like this by the colonial powers (who you accuse of supporting Kurds) so the region never finds rest. It's called building states with strong potential for civil war and instability. Like Iraq. Forget about the Kurds there. The Shia and Sunni Iraqis are literally beating the shit out of each other. You are just in massive denial.

I would rather support "kurdistan" as a province instead in each country, like theyre sort of now in turkey and Iran(if you can call them that), rather than as a ethno-state(which i get the impression kurdistan is meant to be).

Well that is your opinion and let me tell you something as long as this part of the world does not redraw borders based on ethnic alliances it will never gain stability. You will see.

Arent US funding you guys? If youre indeed just fighting with AK's, thats something though, not sure how much an impact US support have for kurds
https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/syria-kurd-base-used-by-us-led-coalition-hit-by-turkish-drone/

They are "funding us" on the political platform and putting pressure on certain countries. But they haven't armed us a shit. We have no air defence nore Tanks. Fucking hell even ISIS had tanks before us. What the US occassionally does is give us air cover vs ISIS tanks. But they don't do this when certain countries strike from the air.

Demhat

01-03-2023, 01:05 PM

I’m all for every ethnic group freely speaking their language and promoting their culture and traditions and even running their own state or region like the various states in USA or Kurdistan Iraq but do really think that a landlocked independent Kurdistan inside Borders of Turkey would be good for Kurds knowing that it would be very poor?

I am seriously having doubt that there is a single real Kurd on this board. I actually know who you are. I have nothing against you claiming to be Kurd but please don't go too far when it comes to politics.

A fully independent Kurdistan would not be landlocked at least we would make sure of that because anyone knows independence movements and war are not simply about the places where you make up the majority now. See how demographic changes can happen like in Efrin.

2. A independent Kurdistan would at least certanly run better than Syria or Iraq. If not even better than Turkey and even Iran.

Iraqi Kurdistan is doing reasonably well because it’s not fully independent from Iraq and gets oil money from Iraq but even then most of the money stays with the ruling tribe the Barzanis. As you know Kurds are very tribal just like Pashtuns . That’s why something similar is happening in Afghanistan with the ruling Taliban tribes main difference being they don’t have all the oil money. I have relatives who are doing well in Iraqi Kurdistan but it’s because they are somehow connected with ruling Barzanis

Iraqi Kurdistan is not doing well because it is still part of Iraq you completely confuse causation and correlation. Iraqi Kurdistan is actually hindered from doing better by belonging to the political and ethnic instable mess called Iraq.

They can't sell their own oil freely and give more to that countries GDP than they actually get out from it. Nepotism is a big part of any country in that region. It is nothing special for Kurds not has it much to do with tribalism. Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and even Turkey and Iran (which have more a nepotism based on political and religious class). You even find nepotism in Germany even if at lower level. Nepotism is part of human nature. The level of nepotism is what differentiates quasi democratic nations from a dictatorship. Nepotism becomes just more visible when political agenda and media from outside tells you it is bad and makes you believe you would do better under different leadership. But it could also end even worse. See Gaddafi and Lybia.

Pashtun tribalism is much more hardcore and based on the ancient traditions of Pashtunwali. As I wrote Nepotism has different levels and layers. Pashtun tribalism is the most extreme form of nepotism combined with very radical ethno-tribalism. It is not comparable to the nepotism found in Kurdistan.

Also Could you please stop comparing Kurds to Pashtuns on every field like do you have personal reasons for it? Nothing against Pashtuns but what is this obsession for Pashtuns everytime something about Kurds comes up?

Demhat

01-03-2023, 01:12 PM

It doesn't matter what some random people think on this kind of boards anyways. It's not like Kurdistan will gain independence if everyone says yes or lose the chance of independence if everyone says no. This kind of thread are only good to seperate friend from foe that's it nothing more.

It is ironic that certain people will use any argument to oppose the creation of a independent Kurdistan. But the very same dickriders would be totally oh yes yes when it came to asking about a independent Palestine while a independent Palestine would face the same or even more obstacles. But suddenly these "arguments" don't matter anymore because it is about "humanitarian" rights isn't it.

happycow

01-03-2023, 02:08 PM

I don't know

Zoro

01-03-2023, 02:24 PM

I am seriously having doubt that there is a single real Kurd on this board. I actually know who you are. I have nothing against you claiming to be Kurd but please don't go too far when it comes to politics.

Actually you have no idea who I really am if you think I’m not an Iraqi Kurd. My family were among the original settlers in Dohuk. Even now with a Dohuk that’s 20 times bigger most of Dohuk knows my family because we’re well known politicians. I have lived in Iraqi Kurdistan for many years and speak Kurdi with my family members. Some of my relatives were peshmerga during the Sadam years and ended up in Iran

Do you really think it’s logical for a non Kurd to spend so much of his time writing about Kurds and going into this level of detail?

It kind of pisses me off that a Kurd from Turkey who probably has never even been to Iraqi Kurdistan is telling me how things work in Iraqi Kurdistan and politics there when my relatives founded Dohuk, are part of the political system there and I have lived amongst them. Yes it’s still all about the tribe in higher political positions or higher paying positions.

2.
A independent Kurdistan would at least certanly run better than Syria or Iraq. If not even better than Turkey and even Iran.

I can sort of agree based on the situation in the autonomous region but things can be different when it’s a country. Again I say Kurds are very tribal. Even now there’s tension between Talabani and Barzani and I’m pretty sure there will be fighting among tribes for leadership.

They can't sell their own oil freely and give more to that countries GDP than they actually get out from it.

What oil? If you’re referring to Kirkuk since when was it exclusively Kurd city? I agree though that Turkmen would be better off under a Kurdistan than Iraq

Also Could you please for stop comparing Kurds to Pashtuns on every field like do you have personal reasons for it? Nothing against Pashtuns but what is this obsession for Pashtuns everytime something about Kurds comes up?

It’s natural for a person to compare 2 peoples one has affinity to and knows well

Applesandoranges

01-03-2023, 02:38 PM

If it wasn't for the Brits and French to begin with Saddam andthis Iraq thing wouldn't even exist in the first place. Know the history.

The lack of ethno states in that very region is the reason for political instability for centuries. The countries which suffer most under civil war and other political turmoils are those fake states which are not based on ethnic origins. See Syria, see Afghanistan, see Iraq and so on. They are basically design like this by the western powers (who you accuse of supporting Kurds) so the region never finds rest. It's called building states with strong potential for civil war and instability. Like Iraq. Forget about the Kurds there. The Shia and Sunni Iraqis are literally beating the shit out of each other. You are just in massive denial.

Well that is your opinion and let me tell you something as long as this part of the world does not redraw borders based on ethnic alliances it will never gain stability. You will see.

They are "funding us" on the political platform and putting pressure on certain countries. But they haven't armed us a shit. We have no air defence nore Tanks. Fucking hell even ISIS had tanks before us. What the US occassionally does is give us air cover vs ISIS tanks. But they don't do this when certain countries strike from the air.

Im not sure you can call Afghanistan fake, since it already existed before westerners even came? But anyways, i get your point.

I just said that i know theyre colonist countries. I didnt deny anything.

All im just saying is that i dont see kurds taking lands from turkey and Iran, countries still staying and not fucked by the west yet. And if saddam wasnt fucked, Iraq would be a stable country. I dont care too much.

Again, do the vast majority of kurds in turkey and iran support an independant country? If so, i would be more in favour instead of neutral(neither against it, nor supporting it)

SilverKnight

01-03-2023, 02:43 PM

Yes, except the Iranian side.

Annihilus

01-03-2023, 02:46 PM

Mejgusu

01-03-2023, 03:39 PM

Assyrians restored their 1700 years old Church, after spending 30 years in Germany because of Pkk terror.

That isn’t true, they came as Gastarbeiter like other Turks and considered Germany as an opportunity to obtain freedom. Although I don’t want deny that they didn’t suffer from Pkk terror. Also Pkk doesn’t represent all Kurds, in Iraqi Kurdistan the number of Kurds doubled even during hatd times. Turkish government doesn’t restore all this buildings as charity, Mardin is one if the last places in Turkey without any ugly urban character, they wanna attract tourists.

Jana

01-03-2023, 03:40 PM

Yes.

Kurds deserve a state, especially after they were among key players in destroying ISIS.

Annihilus

01-03-2023, 04:01 PM

Yes.

Kurds deserve a state, especially after they were among key players in destroying ISIS.

That is generous of you.

Feiichy offers Croatia to the kurds where can build kurdistan. Start packing boys.

Jana

01-03-2023, 04:04 PM

That is generous of you.

Feiichy offers Croatia to the kurds where can build kurdistan. Start packing boys.

Your spin is a fail

chinshen

01-03-2023, 09:10 PM

After Pkk's fall inside Türkiye since 2015, many Assyrians from Mesopotamia started to return to their ancestral lands around Mardin to rebuild their houses and churches.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fld21vDWYAEK6z6?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fld21vnX0AAnBko?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fld21wkWQAAwnIP?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fld21wpXgAE8dBq?format=jpg&name=large

Assyrians restored their 1700 years old Church, after spending 30 years in Germany because of Pkk terror.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBaltm6VkAMAuYO?format=jpg&name=small

Assyrians of Mardin/Urfa are only one part of the indigenous Assyrian population of Turley.
Unfortunately that didn't happen to all Assyrians from Turkey, for instance Van/Hakkari Assyrian were never allowed to go back to our ancestral lands including my own family which were chased out in 1926 for the second time after returning in 1919.

Victor

01-03-2023, 09:15 PM

I don't care

chinshen

01-03-2023, 09:19 PM

Oh look, you're proving my point more and more you dimwit! :picard1: Now you're not claiming to be a Akkadian? FFS, 50% of y'all claim akkadian decent as well, just as you do Babylonian and Sumerian! :bored: Fix your identity crisis first and then come at me like an angry teenager! You guys can be something out of Fight Club with your split personalities sometimes. Yes you idiot, you need to prove your assertions or else no one will take you fucking seriously, particularly in the history book! Stop dreaming and talking out of your ass yourself, just fucking prove your shit and we will accept you as what you are, my aramean/assyrian/akkadian/syriac/chaldean/[insert more mesopotamian names], brethren! :picard1:

Like I stated before we Assyrians know who we are, we have no doubt of who we are.
Other assholes like you claim that we are confused, but let me tell you that a person like you is the one who is confused since you don't know if you are a women or a man (You know what I mean).
To be honest a lot of TA members are confused too since they don't know if you are really a women or just a homosexual man pretending to be an Italian women.

khanx34

01-03-2023, 09:24 PM

I don't care

Odelia

01-03-2023, 10:14 PM

Like I stated before we Assyrians know who we are, we have no doubt of who we are.
Other assholes like you claim that we are confused, but let me tell you that a person like you is the one who is confused since you don't know if you are a women or a man (You know what I mean).
To be honest a lot of TA members are confused too since they don't know if you are really a women or just a homosexual man pretending to be an Italian women.
You went completely off topic, which proves my point that you're so clueless about your identity and you have nothing in return! Whether I'm a tranny or a unicorn pretending to be an Italian, what I said was right. So don't throw it on me bub. Btw...This is an internet forum -- Nobody is real here anyway! :picard1:

I was told that I was an assyrian gay man too and as well as being Sikeliot's sock. I fucking love it tbh.

eastern

01-05-2023, 02:30 PM

Actually you have no idea who I really am if you think I’m not an Iraqi Kurd. My family were among the original settlers in Dohuk. Even now with a Dohuk that’s 20 times bigger most of Dohuk knows my family because we’re well known politicians. I have lived in Iraqi Kurdistan for many years and speak Kurdi with my family members. Some of my relatives were peshmerga during the Sadam years and ended up in Iran

Do you really think it’s logical for a non Kurd to spend so much of his time writing about Kurds and going into this level of detail?

It kind of pisses me off that a Kurd from Turkey who probably has never even been to Iraqi Kurdistan is telling me how things work in Iraqi Kurdistan and politics there when my relatives founded Dohuk, are part of the political system there and I have lived amongst them. Yes it’s still all about the tribe in higher political positions or higher paying positions.

2.

I can sort of agree based on the situation in the autonomous region but things can be different when it’s a country. Again I say Kurds are very tribal. Even now there’s tension between Talabani and Barzani and I’m pretty sure there will be fighting among tribes for leadership.

What oil? If you’re referring to Kirkuk since when was it exclusively Kurd city? I agree though that Turkmen would be better off under a Kurdistan than Iraq

It’s natural for a person to compare 2 peoples one has affinity to and knows well

You really seem to have some kind of hatred towards your Northern neighbours...it's weird how you tell Demhat that he can't speak on Iraqi Kurdistan when you as a so called "Iraqi Kurd" (you are Southern Kurdish, you are not Iraqi in any way but nationality wise) think you know so much about Northern Kurdistan to the point where you label us all as racist, terrorist people who apparently dislike S Asians. You say Kurds need a country and need to be one, yet you push an agenda our oppressors use on us to divide us. ma ne em yekin?

abceff

01-05-2023, 02:37 PM

i support anything turkey and iran oppose. however i believe assyrians suffer more (sometimes at the hands of kurds) from not having autonomy/independence/control of the areas they inhabit (or used to) as we saw since 2015/16

Zoro

01-05-2023, 03:00 PM

You really seem to have some kind of hatred towards your Northern neighbours...it's weird how you tell Demhat that he can't speak on Iraqi Kurdistan when you as a so called "Iraqi Kurd" (you are Southern Kurdish, you are not Iraqi in any way but nationality wise) think you know so much about Northern Kurdistan to the point where you label us all as racist, terrorist people who apparently dislike S Asians. You say Kurds need a country and need to be one, yet you push an agenda our oppressors use on us to divide us. ma ne em yekin?

Guh e behada min bra. Bezha min kangi min guttiya che kurd ek ninin? Awe tu bahs t kaye unsiriya. Simaat boma kurda na hela. Min awale tayed wi t kar bas aw hash kurdet ma na kat awet picha wa ki hindiya yaan wasat asiya yin

Az na bezh ma ta hukmat a turkiya be quseriya tabaan galak khalata siyasat wa gal kurda. Hind sh kurda tirsin che shwava agar pelin kurd jilke tkho pkana bar kho yaan zibano kho istimalkan de kurd wilate kho chekan aw sh turkiya zheva bin. Tabaan az tayid a tishte hosa na kam

Har kaar tariqa kho ye hay, kurd awali lazim nav bayna kho ek bin na waki sakhafata jil nuka khabara t bezhna ek o do yaan az shta chetar am. Hosa abad kurd na bina che

Zoro

01-05-2023, 03:08 PM

Ya di zhi hawja na kat hosa zide Turkmaana baakhwin. Ma che mashaakil ninan gal wa. Ava chand sad saala am gal ek o do tzhin. Sahka Hawlere tizhi Turkmanin. Ma che mushkila ninin naav bayna ma.

Wala hinda mirova t ma turkmanin. Kurdi shman chetar t akhvin. Abad pe na hasiye ke ava Turkmana yaan Kurd. Nuka 5 Turkmaan uzu na la parlamana ma ya hukumata kurdistane

eastern

01-05-2023, 03:20 PM

Guh e behada min bra. Bezha min kangi min guttiya che kurd ek ninin? Awe tu bahs t kaye unsiriya. Simaat boma kurda na hela. Min awale tayed wi t kar bas aw hash kurdet ma na kat awet picha wa ki hindiya yaan wasat asiya yin

Az na bezh ma ta hukmat a turkiya be quseriya tabaan galak khalata siyasat wa gal kurda. Hind sh kurda tirsin che shwava agar pelin kurd jilke tkho pkana bar kho yaan zibano kho istimalkan de kurd wilate kho chekan aw sh turkiya zheva bin. Tabaan az tayid a tishte hosa na kam

Har kaar tariqa kho ye hay, kurd awali lazim nav bayna kho ek bin na waki sakhafata jil nuka khabara t bezhna ek o do yaan az shta chetar am. Hosa abad kurd na bina che

Sorani is understandable orally for me as a Kurmanji speaking Kurd. but sorani written wise...no idea what you're saying LOL. Simple written Sorani sentences sure but I'd rather you say it in English heval.

Zoro

01-05-2023, 03:48 PM

Sorani is understandable orally for me as a Kurmanji speaking Kurd. but sorani written wise...no idea what you're saying LOL. Simple written Sorani sentences sure but I'd rather you say it in English heval.

I wrote in Iraq Badini but no problem.

I never said kurds are not one people. There’s alot of variation but that’s expected with people spread over such a large area. Anyways I don’t like it when some of these kurds are prejudice against people who look one way or another or try to imply that real Kurds should look a certain way.

The person you are referring to cross the line by cussing and making up stuff about me saying things about zh that I never said. Instead of showing me proof where I said it he made the matter worse by insisting on his false accusations and not apologizing. I have zero sympathy for people like that.

And this is an Internet forum. No one can really prove who they really are. It doesn’t bother me if some people don’t think i’m kurd or have lived in Kurdistan a long time. I don’t need to convince them since they don’t mean anything to me. I know who I really am and my relatives know that’s all that counts for me and anyone who meets me face to face and talks with me quickly realizes it

Turkey government is not specifically against kurds they’re just against any separitist whether chechen circassian or anything. They are most scared of kurds though because they’re good worriors and the largest minority. In their fear they have in the past tried to ban kurd clothes and language which as we know is a bad idea and back fired. So knowing this kurds can use their heads like smarter kurds in Turkey already do and try to politically change things. Even till creation of Turkey kurds and Turks fought side by side in Ottomen and before.

In my opinion autonomous region just like KRG is more practical and still a good solution. Are there problems in KRG ? Of course there are. The tribal mentality of Barzani vs Talabani vs whoever still exists. Bribery still exists. Personal enrichment still exists but relatively speaking it’s better than Iraqi parts or Syria.

Although there are 5 Turkmen parliament members in KRG and although places like Hawler Turkmen numbers are huge and they live side by side with Kurds with no problem, there’s still room for improvement. BTW some of my full Turkmen relatives speak better kurdi than me and they are treated 100% equal to kurds which I’m happy about

Speed

10-03-2023, 10:02 PM

No, I don't. Even the Albanians in Macedonia, Kosovo, Southern Serbia (Kosovo Vilajet / Dardania ) have more right to be joined together into the same country. They defeated the Ottomans and were occupied by Balkan Slavs with the help of Russia. The Kurds couldn't even defeat the Ottomans entirely and got help from Russia. Imagine getting help from Russia and you still can't entirely defeat the Ottomans ? Russia also saved Serbia from the Ottomans.

Speed

10-03-2023, 11:23 PM

Not to mention that I always liked Turks better

sarmsaksogan

10-03-2023, 11:27 PM

The upper Mesopotamia region is actually the land of the Assyrians, the Kurds were never native to this region.

Speed

10-03-2023, 11:29 PM

The upper Mesopotamia region is actually the land of the Assyrians, the Kurds were never native to this region.

Yes, I read Assyrians are quite ancient people .

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Map_of_Assyria.png/1280px-Map_of_Assyria.png

Speed

10-03-2023, 11:30 PM

This is the proto-Albanian homeland according to Matzinger

https://preview.redd.it/the-original-home-of-proto-albanian-according-to-joachim-v0-vuhcvmbnzwd81.jpg?auto=webp&a74a69d5

Speed

10-03-2023, 11:34 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/VNvHzPNJ/kk.webp

Speed

10-04-2023, 09:35 AM

It actually baffles me how Assyrians, who are like literally the most ancient people of West Asia, don't even have their own country, yet Kurds claim part of their country and claim they have right to indeopendence more than anyone else, and not only this but some of these Slavs in the Balkans whine about territories they held for only short period and which they colonized and invaded from others since the medieval period yet Assyrians don't have their country ?

The Slavs in Macedonia claim they are the oldest inhabitants but I'm pretty sure Albanians actually are. Same thing in Serbia where I'd put Albanians as the oldest inhabitants.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 11:01 AM

Babak

10-04-2023, 01:14 PM

The wheel that squeaks the most gets the oil, plus international interests that converges determine who gets independence and more rights and who gets screwed and gets nothing..

Dont worry man, they claim our history too. Its all about divide and conquer.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 01:43 PM

Dont worry man, they claim our history too. Its all about divide and conquer.

Yes, I know that.

Hektor12

10-04-2023, 01:47 PM

The wheel that squeaks the most gets the oil, plus international interests that converges determine who gets independence and more rights and who gets screwed and gets nothing..

If youre willing to sacrifice your own life for an imperial power, you get unlimited support. See=Ukraine.

Speed

10-04-2023, 02:56 PM

These Kurdi Murdis even took part in the Assyrian genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayfo . Yet these Kurdi Murdi's compare their fight for independence to Albanians.

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 04:59 PM

Yes, I know that.

If you look at everything what happened during the history, many empires committed a lot of crimes against many people. Assyrian population was nearly annihilated by Mongolians, and do you know who helped them, Orthodox Armenians. Several hundreds years later Turks and Kurds committed genocide against Armenians and the Assyrians who survived. Some decades later Turks started to oppress Kurdish people. You see everyone experienced pain in that lands, every criminal claimed that all the killed peoples collaborated with imperialist or enemy powers. If Assyrians would be numerous enough, have an united settlement area I would be the first one who would support an independent Assyrian nation. Neither you nor me can’t change what happened in the last 1000 years in the Middle East, Kurds are a fact now. Are they innocent, no they aren’t. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t experiencing injustice right now. If you have a good idea how we could solve current chaotic situation in Middle East, then tell us how. Everyone who has no solution just claims there is a foreign power who tries to do this or that.

Speed

10-04-2023, 05:24 PM

Persians, demonstrated a pattern of deliberate and systematic targeting of Christiansas such, including Assyrians, for murder, maiming, enslavement, rape, dispossession,impoverishment, and cultural and ethnic destruction. Nevertheless, governments andhistorians have not been as willing to recognize the Assyrian experience during andafter World War I as a form of genocide, or even to acknowledge the existence andcriminality of the Ottoman atrocities against Assyrians, as to give such recognition tothe Ottoman genocide of the Armenians. Generally speaking, recognition of the latterby both governments and historians has been more rapid, official, and detailed. This article will argue that the hesitation to recognize the Assyrian genocide is unjustified, for the evidence is overwhelming that Turks and their Kurdish allies massacred tens, and more likely hundreds, of thousands of Assyrians in order to exterminate the Christian population; raped and enslaved hundreds, and more likely thousands, of Assyrian women in a systematic fashion; and deported the Assyrians en masse from their ancestral lands under conditions that led to famine

https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1233&context=gsp

Annihilus

10-04-2023, 05:54 PM

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 06:08 PM

What happened to Assyrians was karma having a huge score to settle and their abandoned gods applauding it.

Neither Assyrians, nor Armenians nor Kurds deserved anything. No one has the right to end a human life.

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 06:38 PM

Neither Assyrians, nor Armenians nor Kurds deserved anything. No one has the right to end a human life.

But they have every right to end the lives of the Turks.

Hektor12

10-04-2023, 06:41 PM

I support Roketsan

https://zcnelektronik.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/roketsan-logo.png

Some of their arguments on this topic=

https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2023/06/06/thumbs_b_c_3c98779c13956bcf43ef404814a22ffb.jpg?v= 175228
https://trthaberstatic.cdn.wp.trt.com.tr/resimler/794000/794681.jpg
https://www.yuzde100yerli.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/roketsan-k-plus-trg-300.jpg
https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2023/07/28/thumbs_b_c_87be6b072b20dae6604adba1c0f6ff13.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Roketsan_MAM-L_-_IDET_2017.JPG/440px-Roketsan_MAM-L_-_IDET_2017.JPG
https://trthaberstatic.cdn.wp.trt.com.tr/resimler/1958000/roketsan-kirikkale-a-1959383.jpg
https://www.savunmahaber.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/KAPLAN-1-Copy.jpg

Voskos

10-04-2023, 06:57 PM

These subhuman whom do you support threads are getting funnier day after day. Human species going crazier day by day till musk sends us all to Mars and sell us to the aliens.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 07:22 PM

That isn’t true, they came as Gastarbeiter like other Turks and considered Germany as an opportunity to obtain freedom. Although I don’t want deny that they didn’t suffer from Pkk terror. Also Pkk doesn’t represent all Kurds, in Iraqi Kurdistan the number of Kurds doubled even during hatd times. Turkish government doesn’t restore all this buildings as charity, Mardin is one if the last places in Turkey without any ugly urban character, they wanna attract tourists.

Annihilus is correct, it was mostly due to PKK terror, you always try to twist facts. And when you acknowledge them, then you follow it by a but and try to weakly justify why it is ok.

I don't understand what your second sentence has to do with the previous one! "Also Pkk doesn’t represent all Kurds, in Iraqi Kurdistan the number of Kurds doubled even during hatd times" .

chinshen

10-04-2023, 07:33 PM

Yes.

Kurds deserve a state, especially after they were among key players in destroying ISIS.

They were also key players in allowing ISIS to exist in the first place while having prevented other ethnic groups in the area like Assyrians and Yezidis from organizing and arming themselves in the leading years so that they solely can control the area and have monopoly over power, resources and security.
Also some of their individuals actually took part and were active members of ISIS sharing the same ideology.

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 07:34 PM

Annihilus is correct, it was mostly due to PKK terror, you always try to twist facts. And when you acknowledge them, then you follow it by a but and try to weakly justify why it is ok.

I don't understand what your second sentence has to do with the previous one! "Also Pkk doesn’t represent all Kurds, in Iraqi Kurdistan the number of Kurds doubled even during hatd times" .

I don’t twist anything men, why are you negatively reacting? I wish the worst for pkk, but many Assyrians came as Gastarbeiter to countries like Germany or Sweden. Otherwise, if Turkish state wouldn’t be oppressive, they would have the opportunity to migrate to another city in Turkiye. But you are right about that pkk terrorism also played an important role.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 07:40 PM

chinshen

10-04-2023, 07:46 PM

These Kurdi Murdis even took part in the Assyrian genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayfo . Yet these Kurdi Murdi's compare their fight for independence to Albanians.

They were the main perpetrators even a few hundred years before 1915 and after.

Asil

10-04-2023, 07:52 PM

Her biji Kurdistan

Abti

10-04-2023, 07:54 PM

Yes, only if it means other unrecognized countries become independent as well.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 08:20 PM

If you look at everything what happened during the history, many empires committed a lot of crimes against many people. Assyrian population was nearly annihilated by Mongolians, and do you know who helped them, Orthodox Armenians. Several hundreds years later Turks and Kurds committed genocide against Armenians and the Assyrians who survived. Some decades later Turks started to oppress Kurdish people. You see everyone experienced pain in that lands, every criminal claimed that all the killed peoples collaborated with imperialist or enemy powers. If Assyrians would be numerous enough, have an united settlement area I would be the first one who would support an independent Assyrian nation. Neither you nor me can’t change what happened in the last 1000 years in the Middle East, Kurds are a fact now. Are they innocent, no they aren’t. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t experiencing injustice right now. If you have a good idea how we could solve current chaotic situation in Middle East, then tell us how. Everyone who has no solution just claims there is a foreign power who tries to do this or that.

That is a myth that Kurds, Arabs and others in the rea try to propagate to shift the blame for the genocide and crimes committed against Assyrian and to legitimize the stealing of ancestral Assyrian lands and cities. That is not to deny that the Mongols did a lot of harm to the Assyrian population, but to blame all the killing, land stealing marginalization and other crimes solely on Mongols is dishonest at best.

This is the first time I hear that the Orthodox Armenians helped the Mongols in exterminating Assyrians, what proofs do you have? I highly doubt that happened at all.
By the way Armenians are not Orthodox, but Apostolic Christians just like most Assyrians.

How could Assyrians or any other ethnic group be numerous if they are constantly subjected to murder and genocide for the last thousand years?
Assyrians did have contiguous settlements until as recent as 1915 from Lake Van North in what is now Turkey to Lake Urmia in the East in Iran to what is Northern Iraq and North Eastern Syria in the South on what was left left of our ancestral lands, but guess who is claiming that land now as their ancestral lands since Neanderthal times?
Kurds are far from being innocent, and no they have not been subjected to genocide or mistreatment in their entire history except to the deplorable crimes and genocide that Saddam Hussein committed against them in the eighties and early nineties of the last century while they were always the perpetrators of it.

DomitiusAurelian

10-04-2023, 08:24 PM

Her biji Kurdistan

Barzani veya PKK hakkında ne düşünüyorsun?

chinshen

10-04-2023, 08:26 PM

What happened to Assyrians was karma having a huge score to settle and their abandoned gods applauding it.

Is the same karma gonna soon happen to Turks too?

Assyrians committed a lot of horrible crimes in ancient times against their neighbors, but those crimes fade comparing to what the Turks had committed in their medieval and modern history, so lets wait for your karma since you too have abandoned your old gods just like Assyrians did.

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 08:35 PM

...

It is a fact that Armenians(and Georgians) helped Mongolians conquering Westasia, and Mongols killed whole cities and villages. Helping mass murderers makes you co-responsible, whether you like it or not. Anatolian Seljuks requested help against Mongolians because Armenians were their allies. Kurdish authorities did the same with Turks killing Ottoman Christians 1915.

How could Assyrians or any other ethnic group be numerous if they are constantly subjected to murder and genocide for the last thousand years?
Assyrians did have contiguous settlements until as recent as 1915 from Lake Van North in what is now Turkey to Lake Urmia in the East in Iran to what is Northern Iraq and North Eastern Syria in the South on what was left left of our ancestral lands, but guess who is claiming that land now as their ancestral lands since Neanderthal times?

This is exactly what I am trying to tell you, Assyrians experienced a lot if genocides against them. I rather would support an independent Assyria than Kurdistan, even the hometown of my parents in Centralanatolia was Assyrian thousands of years ago. But Kurds are a fact, whether I and you like it or not, I prefer an independent Kurdistan over an useless Iraq, dangerous daesh and aggressive Erdoganist Turkiye.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 08:36 PM

But they have every right to end the lives of the Turks.

When did the Assyrians take the lives of Turks?
On the contrary, Assyrians were the one who have given you your authentic Turkic alphabet and helped to educate you while you were still pastoral in your ancestral lands in Altai, Turkistan and north central Asia (Assyrians then were referred to as Nestorians by others, but that is just a religious label not ethnic).

DomitiusAurelian

10-04-2023, 08:42 PM

Is the same karma gonna soon happen to Turks too?

Assyrians committed a lot of horrible crimes in ancient times against their neighbors, but those crimes fade comparing to what the Turks had committed in their medieval and modern history, so lets wait for your karma since you too have abandoned your old gods just like Assyrians did.

I haven't abandoned the old gods. There are many people like me. Also karma already hit us if you ask me, we lost our empire.

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 08:56 PM

When did the Assyrians take the lives of Turks?
On the contrary, Assyrians were the one who have given you your authentic Turkic alphabet and helped to educate you while you were still pastoral in your ancestral lands in Altai, Turkistan and north central Asia (Assyrians then were referred to as Nestorians by others, but that is just a religious label not ethnic).

What I wrote wasn't targeted towards you but Armenians and Kurds, I have nothing but respect towards Assyrians. Sure the Uyghur alphabet came from you guys and we took it from the Sogdians, but the Orkhon inscription was the work of the Tamgas of the Turkic tribes back then. (As you can see from the root word *yạŕ- from Proto-Turkic, meaning writing, we can definitely understand that they were doing something similar to writing or scribbling.)

I don't quite understand the reason of your hostility towards us, back then we were also Nestorian Christians who got converted by your ancestors.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 08:57 PM

It is a fact that Armenians(and Georgians) helped Mongolians conquering Westasia, and Mongols killed whole cities and villages. Helping mass murderers makes you co-responsible, whether you like it or not. Anatolian Seljuks requested help against Mongolians because Armenians were their allies. Kurdish authorities did the same with Turks killing Ottoman Christians 1915.[QUOTE=Mejgusu;7810588]

Mongols did not need help from any Armenian or Georgian to conquer West Asia, can you give some historical records of that?
Seljuks were not from originally in Anatolia when Mongols invaded West Asia, but they were actually part of the Mongol/Tatar federation. Seljuks came to West Asia because of the vacuum left by the Mongols and were actually of Tatar stock.

This is exactly what I am trying to tell you, Assyrians experienced a lot if genocides against them. I rather would support an independent Assyria than Kurdistan, even the hometown of my parents in Centralanatolia was Assyrian thousands of years ago. But Kurds are a fact, whether I and you like it or not, I prefer an independent Kurdistan over an useless Iraq, dangerous daesh and aggressive Erdoganist Turkiye.

No one likes Iraq, it is a failed state from the beginning created by the British for their own interests. That is why they brought an Arab and his family from the Arabian peninsula and installed him as a king to rule over their artificially created country.
Don't take me wrong, I don't have anything against Kurds, but lets not distort history and bad events that happened.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 09:00 PM

What I wrote wasn't targeted towards you but Armenians and Kurds, I have nothing but respect towards Assyrians. Sure the Uyghur alphabet came from you guys and we took it from the Sogdians, but the Orkhon inscription was the work of the Tamgas of the Turkic tribes back then. As you can see from the root word *yạŕ- from Proto-Turkic, meaning writing, we can definitely understand that they were doing something similar to writing or scribbling. I don't quite understand why you are hostile towards us, but at that time we were also Nestorian Christians who were converted by you.

I am not hostile toward you or hate you at all, I am just pointing out historical facts. Believe me I don't have any ill feeling toward Turks.

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 09:15 PM

…

I don’t want to say anything against Assyrians and you are right about Kurdish crimes. I am doing a lot of research about Assyrians because they are very interesting. But Erdoganist Turkish state, terrorists like daesh or failed states like Iraq are dangerous, causing a lot of problems and are worse than Kurdistan.

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 09:39 PM

I am not hostile toward you or hate you at all, I am just pointing out historical facts. Believe me I don't have any ill feeling toward Turks.

Maybe I misunderstood, I must be honest, I don't know whether the Ottomans are responsible for the Assyrian genocide or Kurds. Since the inter-tribal land war between Kurds and Assyrians back then, I always thought that the Kurds had a greater share in it. Without our involvement, the results would have been approximately the same. This may sound childish and irresponsible, I'm sorry if it is. But it's what I think on this subject. I'm open for different views on this issue and we can discuss it.
Regardless of their origins even as a Turk I don't consider Ottoman dynasty as Turks (Since my English is lacking, I can't explain what I'm really trying to say here) Their dynasty and it's elites had a multi-layered ethnic origin, they killed more Turks than they killed the Christian population of Anatolia.

Seljuks were not from originally in Anatolia when Mongols invaded West Asia, but they were actually part of the Mongol/Tatar federation. Seljuks came to West Asia because of the vacuum left by the Mongols and were actually of Tatar stock.

You fucking imbecile gypsy, Seljuk Beg was part of the Khazar Khaganate and served in the Khazar horde, then they migrated to Khwarazm, to the city of Jand, where they were under the influence of Islam, and rapidly migrated towards Khorasan then to Anatolia. "Mongolian" Invasion happened 200 years later. Whom the fuck do you learn these type of bull shit... Also they were of TATAR stock ? :pound:

chinshen

10-04-2023, 09:45 PM

Maybe I misunderstood, I must be honest, I don't know whether the Ottomans are responsible for the Assyrian genocide or Kurds. Since the inter-tribal land war between Kurds and Assyrians back then, I always thought that the Kurds had a greater share in it. Without our involvement, the results would have been approximately the same. This may sound childish and irresponsible, I'm sorry if it is. But it's what I think on this subject. I'm open for different views on this issue and we can discuss it.
Regardless of their origins even as a Turk I don't consider Ottoman dynasty as Turks (Since my English is lacking, I can't explain what I'm really trying to say here) Their dynasty and it's elites had a multi-layered ethnic origin, they killed more Turks than they killed the Christian population of Anatolia.

You fucking imbecile gypsy, Seljuk Beg was part of the Khazar Khaganate and served in the Khazar horde, then they migrated to Khwarazm, to the city of Jand, where they were under the influence of Islam, and rapidly migrated towards Khorasan then to Anatolia. "Mongolian" Invasion happened 200 years later. Whom the fuck do you learn these type of bull shit... Also they were of TATAR stock ? :pound:

Peace, you did misunderstand my intentions as I misunderstood yours.

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 09:46 PM

You fucking imbecile gypsy, Seljuk Beg was part of the Khazar Khaganate and served in the Khazar horde, then they migrated to Khwarazm, to the city of Jand, where they were under the influence of Islam, and rapidly migrated towards Khorasan then to Anatolia. "Mongolian" Invasion happened 200 years later. Whom the fuck do you learn these type of bull shit ???

You are distorting my posting, you wrote something else than I wrote. People can click to my quote and see that I wrote something totally different, your behavior is psychopathic. I can’t respond to someone who is rewrite my postings and attack me basing on this distortions.

Thats your how you quoted me:

https://i.ibb.co/1TxNmqs/IMG-4776.jpg

Thats what I actually wrote:

https://i.ibb.co/qjwB8h8/IMG-4777.jpg

Distortions and insults don’t change historic facts, Mongolians committed suicide against many people, including Assyrians and Turks.

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 09:53 PM

You are distorting my posting, you wrote something else than I wrote. People can click to my quote and see that I wrote something totally different, your behavior is psychopathic. I can’t respond to someone who is rewrite my postings and attack me basing on this distortions.

Ulan şopar oğlu şopar, you've fucking edited it...

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 10:00 PM

Ulan şopar oğlu şopar, you've fucking edited it...

I didn’t, the member chinchen thankfully quoted me then, at 8:57 PM, you posted my distorted quote 9:39 PM. You actually revealed yourself as a liar.

chinshen

10-04-2023, 10:06 PM

Maybe I misunderstood, I must be honest, I don't know whether the Ottomans are responsible for the Assyrian genocide or Kurds. Since the inter-tribal land war between Kurds and Assyrians back then, I always thought that the Kurds had a greater share in it. Without our involvement, the results would have been approximately the same. This may sound childish and irresponsible, I'm sorry if it is. But it's what I think on this subject. I'm open for different views on this issue and we can discuss it.
Regardless of their origins even as a Turk I don't consider Ottoman dynasty as Turks (Since my English is lacking, I can't explain what I'm really trying to say here) Their dynasty and it's

Ottomans are partially responsible for the Assyrian genocide in 1915, but you are correct the bulk of the responsibility falls on the Kurds since the genocide didn't start in 1915, but had been going on for at least two to three hundred years. I disagree with you that the results would have been the same, because the Kurds had a whole empire (Ottoman) backing them up while we were on our own and you saw the result.

DomitiusAurelian

10-04-2023, 10:24 PM

I didn’t, the member chinchen thankfully quoted me then, at 8:57 PM, you posted my distorted quote 9:39 PM. You actually revealed yourself as a liar.

You've just edited your comment amk maymunu, you're blatantly lying have you got no fucking shame? Apparently you don't.

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 10:29 PM

You've just edited your comment amk maymunu, you're blatantly lying have you got no fucking shame? Apparently you don't.

It is obvious who is lying and who not. I didn’t changed anything, if I would have changed anything people would see that. The member demirkazik posted something which doesn’t make any sense, people who know me wouldn’t believe that this was posted by me. This is the first time I see people are falsifying postings of another member for trolling, but people can see who is lying and who isn’t.

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 10:31 PM

It is obvious who is lying and who not. I didn’t changed anything, if I would have changed anything people would see that. The member demirkazik posted something which doesn’t make any sense, people who know me wouldn’t believe that this was posted by me.

Tam tersini söylüyor bir de xD, Utanman yok mu la senin ?

Loki

10-04-2023, 10:42 PM

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 10:55 PM

I am joking, I am often not serious or ironic but never saw someone who is obviously posting fake quotes for trolling. If you guys want to troll me, them please be more clever. For example, open a thread where people classify you although they actually didn’t saw you really. Some members like Mortimer understood whats going on, and even I don’t really respect him, at least he knows how to use his brain.

Tam tersini söylüyor bir de xD, Utanman yok mu la senin ?

Another member quoted my posting which you distorted, even marked sentences there. I am calm until now, because I am amused seing how triggered some of you guys become by my postings but I will be personal too next time, like if someone opens a thread like „Can you classify my Great-Grandfather“ and is posting his great grandfather with his paternal grandfather.

Sure, Jesus was accused of blasphemy and I'm accused of behaving like an angry hooligan... Where were you when he gave me a death threat ?

Are you seriously comparing yourself with Jesus? People see that you are obviously lying, if I would have changes anything(like in this posting)people would notice that while they see how you wrote some nonsense where people can confirm that I never, never would write such idiotic sentences. Even I am not serious many times, I was discussing seriously with another member and not with you. People can be really weird, but rarely saw a psycho with this impertinence. Pah, Jesus, you couldn’t even be his nose hair(tövbe) that you are comparing yourself with him.

Fetöcü müsün lan sen, ırz düşmanı ?

You know people can be arrested for such accusations in Turkiye, you know it and you are saying this. I am probably one of the most „liberal“(however you guys are define liberal, I am rather moderate)in this forum, how should I belong to this disgusting sect? This is a forum where people have no idea of what that does mean, but you know and you are intentionally accusing me of some nonsense. You can’t say anything in English because you know you would be banned for that and people would see that you are a jerk.

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 11:04 PM

I'm giving you a warning now -- stop behaving like an angry hooligan.

No more insults in this thread. And stop accusing others.

Sure, Jesus was accused of blasphemy and I'm accused of behaving like an angry hooligan... Where were you when he gave me a death threat ?

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 11:05 PM

I'm also ironic btw, just for the shits and giggles.

Demirkazık

10-04-2023, 11:17 PM

Another member quoted my posting which you distorted, even marked sentences there. I am calm until now, because I am amused seing how triggered some of you guys become by my postings but I will be personal too next time, like if someone opens a thread like „Can you classify my Great-Grandfather“ and is posting his great grandfather with his paternal grandfather.

Fetöcü müsün lan sen, ırz düşmanı ?

Hulu

10-04-2023, 11:42 PM

Fetöcü müsün lan sen, ırz düşmanı ?

So I googled it and is it being a Gulenist such a crime in Turkey? Or does it mean something else.

The Gülen movement (Turkish: Gülen hareketi), or Hizmet movement (Turkish: Hizmet hareketi), or Fethullah Gülen movement (Turkish: Fethullah Gülen hareketi), referred to by its participants as Hizmet ("service") or Cemaat ("community") and since 2016[1] by the Government of Turkey as FETÖ ("Fethullahist Terrorist Organisation". Turkish: Fethullahçı Terör Örgütü), is an Islamist fraternal movement led by Fethullah Gülen, a Muslim preacher who has been living in the United States since 1999

Mejgusu

10-04-2023, 11:55 PM

So I googled it and is it being a Gulenist such a crime in Turkey? Or does it mean something else.

The Gülen movement (Turkish: Gülen hareketi), or Hizmet movement (Turkish: Hizmet hareketi), or Fethullah Gülen movement (Turkish: Fethullah Gülen hareketi), referred to by its participants as Hizmet ("service") or Cemaat ("community") and since 2016[1] by the Government of Turkey as FETÖ ("Fethullahist Terrorist Organisation". Turkish: Fethullahçı Terör Örgütü), is an Islamist fraternal movement led by Fethullah Gülen, a Muslim preacher who has been living in the United States since 1999

It is a crime, even I dislike Erdogan they are right about that. Gülen is a dangerous leader of an Islamist sect who subverted Turkish state for years. You can be arrested for such accusations, if you want to downgrade someone people either call you fetöcü or pkkli(terrorist). I mean I know nothing would happen to me, but if this discussion would have happened in Facebook, then it wouldn’t be that funny. You are not dumb, basing on what I have said in the past it is obvious that I am not a fundamentalist or whatever.

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:27 AM

It is a crime, even I dislike Erdogan they are right about that. Gülen is a dangerous leader of an Islamist sect who subverted Turkish state for years. You can be arrested for such accusations, if you want to downgrade someone people either call you fetöcü or pkkli(terrorist). I mean I know nothing would happen to me, but if this discussion would have happened in Facebook, then it wouldn’t be that funny. You are not dumb, basing on what I have said in the past it is obvious that I am not a fundamentalist or whatever.

Calm down drama queen. If America hosted him he's not a terrorist, just because he doesn't want Erdogan in power.

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:30 AM

So I was in Albania this summer and learned that the big mosque built in the center is apparently sponsored by Gulen, and the islamic community there sponsored by Erdogan is not allowing muslims to pray in that mosque :D :picard2: Or the other way around, not sure.
It was good to see the mosque empty though, not gonna lie.

Mejgusu

10-05-2023, 12:34 AM

Calm down drama queen. If America hosted him he's not a terrorist, just because he doesn't want Erdogan in power.

His sect is a dangerous organization, and his people infiltrated Turkish state with the help of Erdogan. He was dangerous before the dispute between both, all sects in Turkey are dangerous. And I know that not everyone is a terrorist just because Erdogan says that.

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:35 AM

His sect is a dangerous organization, and his people infiltrated Turkish state with the help of Erdogan. He was dangerous before the dispute between both, all sects in Turkey are dangerous.

Why is he dangerous?

Mejgusu

10-05-2023, 12:37 AM

Why is he dangerous?

Islamists aren’t dangerous? Erdogan was criticized for cooperating with his sect for many years, then they suddenly disputed with each other.

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:38 AM

Islamists aren’t dangerous? Erdogan was criticized for cooperating with his sect for many years, then they suddenly disputed with each other.

They are both islamists. Why is Gulen dangerous?

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:42 AM

So the Grand mufti of Albania is apparently a Gulenist :bounce:

https://www.insideover.com/reportage/politics/the-roots-of-the-albanian-crisis/disputed-albania-erdogans-pain-in-the-neck.html

Mejgusu

10-05-2023, 12:44 AM

They are both islamists. Why is Gulen dangerous?

You are right, and you see what Erdogan is doing in Turkey. Gulens sect infiltrated Turkish state, judges, soldiers, businessmen and politicians are following him and his radical sect. I am opposing Erdogan and his policy and I am opposing religious sects especially if they are politically influential.

So the Grand mufti of Albania is apparently a Gulenist :bounce:

https://www.insideover.com/reportage/politics/the-roots-of-the-albanian-crisis/disputed-albania-erdogans-pain-in-the-neck.html

Neither Erdogan, Gülen or anyone else should poison the mind of your people. Just because you don’t like Erdogan, neither I do, you shouldn’t close your eyes if it comes to ther dangerous religious groups.

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:47 AM

Mejgusu

10-05-2023, 12:50 AM

I don't understand what you are trying to say, honestly. Other than being a sect, why is he dangerous? Answer tomorrow, think about it, go to sleep now. lol

… Gulens sect infiltrated Turkish state, judges, soldiers, businessmen and politicians are following him and his radical sect…

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:52 AM

… Gulens sect infiltrated Turkish state, judges, soldiers, businessmen and politicians are following him and his radical sect…

Yes he wants to get into power. What's so wrong about it? He also wants a separation of religion and politics.
Again if America is hosting him, he's not the monster Erdogan is making him to be.

Hulu

10-05-2023, 12:55 AM

You are right, and you see what Erdogan is doing in Turkey. Gulens sect infiltrated Turkish state, judges, soldiers, businessmen and politicians are following him and his radical sect. I am opposing Erdogan and his policy and I am opposing religious sects especially if they are politically influential.

Neither Erdogan, Gülen or anyone else should poison the mind of your people. Just because you don’t like Erdogan, neither I do, you shouldn’t close your eyes if it comes to ther dangerous religious groups.

I don't care about either of them. But it is an irony of sorts how despite friendly official relations with Erdogan, the religious community in Albania is pro Gulen.

Also, now that I remember, it was said during the coup in Turkey a few years ago that the old Albanian community there was pro Gulen, a lot of the generals.

Mejgusu

10-05-2023, 01:00 AM

Yes he wants to get into power. What's so wrong about it? He also wants a separation of religion and politics.
Again if America is hosting him, he's not the monster Erdogan is making him to be.

How can you separate religion from state institutions if a religious authority is controlling and influencing it? He is hated by everyone in Turkey, he was hated when he cooperated with Erdogan and he was still hated after the failed coup attempt. I really don’t want to indulge in anti American rheotoric, but it is criticized by everyone in Turkey that USA is protecting him. Again, I don’t like Erdogan too and that dictator is using democratic institutions to demolish a secular nation and convert it into a second Mullah regime, but just because he dislikes someone that doesn’t mean I have to automatically like that person. Many want to get into power, but it is good that so many can’t.

Also, now that I remember, it was said during the coup in Turkey a few years ago that the old Albanian community there was pro Gulen, a lot of the generals.

I don’t know anything about this, but again, Albanian people should avoid contacts with any religious sect from Middle East. They say that they are secular, modern etc but in the end they are what they are, a dangerous sect. I dont want to be preaching, it isn’t just a good idea if foreign political or religious groups are starting to influence your people. But whatever, if you think it isn’t a big problem, I won’t say anything anymore.

Speed

10-05-2023, 01:13 AM

And the female units of Peshmerga who fought against ISIS are so badass!

[IMG]https://www.tovima.gr/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/21/30760123_ypj.jpg[/G]

A nation with such courageous and brave sons and daughters definitely deserves its freedom.

The problem here is that you people are biased so are most of these people that gave you thumbs up. You claim Albanian inhabited territories yet wont recognize the genocide on Assyrians or how they were uprooted when they are indigenous but the Serbs and Bulgars have been turned into the victims by you people when they are guilty. Can you show us any Serbian presence in what is today Serbia prior to the Serbian expansion there in the 12th-14th century ? Or any Serbian presence in Kosovo or Macedonia ? Bulgars invaded Macedonia and Kosovo only in year 900 AD and also invaded Albania. The Serbs invaded Albania in 900 AD from the north. And they spread eventually into Kosovo and from Kosovo they conquered Macedonia. But these weren't compact territories. In Macedonia they never made the majority just like I believe in Kosovo and Southern Serbia in many areas they were never the majority as there lived Albanians there too. Prizren, Nish, Shkup which they claim as Serbian towns were certainly never Serbian inhabited towns originally but inhabited by Albanians. Prishtina , another Albanian town. Lipjan also an Albanian town.

It's interesting how the people that actually suffered the most, such as the Assyrians, never get the recognition, the Serbs and their fairytale mythical history has gotten world wide audience although some little kid could debunk such nonsense. Also what about Aromanians, Romanians etc and other Vlach groups of the Balkans that are related to Albanians ? What about the Albanian Chams ? Or the expulsion of Albanians out of Southern Serbia ? Or the illegal occupation of Albanian inhabited Kosovo and Macedonia and Albanian inhabited Montenegro ? What about the Albanians in Presheva valley ?