How best to understand the Arvanite identity..

[Dna8]

From what I gather, Arvanites, for the most part, understand themselves to be Greeks who speak both Arvanitika and Modern Greek - something similar, perhaps, to Vlachs in Serbia, who understand themselves to be Serbian Vlachs.

It is also my understanding that Arvanites have featured prominently in modern Greek history, in various capacities, from the military to the political to the theological.

Notwithstanding their comprehensive self-identification as Greeks (at least, as goes the impression I have), the discourse surrounding the Arvanites' precise relationship to Albanians appears to be rather more complicated. There seem to be two opposing camps: one which argues that the relationship between Arvanites and Albanians is less intimate (in the sense of their being linguistic and ethnic "cousins once removed", rather than "brothers"); the other seems to hold that the two peoples are kith and kin, their oneness only severed on account of the potency of the Greek sphere of influence.

What is your understanding?


Preface to the thread:

This thread is not intended as a theatre of flame war.

I would ask that any belligerents leave some space, at least, for civil discussion.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-649495e1eb89ee3aa1965fb5bcd3c88d.webp

[Dna8]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/27/88/2e/27882e6e05e85334a0bb788c292f6d2a.jpg

[Eastern88]

They are Albanians just like Arbëresh people in Italy just they are more influenced by greeks.

[catgeorge]

No such thing as Albanian as Albanians didnt exist in Europe pre 13th century. Ali Pasha ruled his little hamlet for awhile and while buttfucking and turning Albos into muslims where muslims dominated the area where also no Greek schools and Greeks spoke several languages to trade and Ali Pasha Albanian was one of them.

[Dna8]

They are Albanians just like Arbëresh people in Italy just they are more influenced by greeks.


No such thing as Albanian as Albanians didnt exist in Europe pre 13th century. Ali Pasha ruled his little hamlet for awhile and while buttfucking and turning Albos into muslims where muslims dominated the area where also no Greek schools and Greeks spoke several languages to trade and Ali Pasha Albanian was one of them.

Thank you for posting, gentlemen

I hope more people will lend their insights.. The topic is worthy of a good discussion, IMO.. These Arvanites are one of the Balkan's ethnological points of interest..

[Tauromachos]

Arvanites descend from Orthodox people who started moving from Arvanon in Albania
into Greece since the 13th and till the 16th century.

Since then they live in Greece and they also mixed or intermarried with the neighbouring Greek Mainland people
living next to them.

All this happend before Albania as a modern nation came into existence
They live to long in Greece to be Albanians anymore
hence Arvanites view Greece as their homeland and not Albania.

[Tauromachos]

They are Albanians just like Arbëresh people in Italy just they are more influenced by greeks.

They are not Albanian

No Arvanitis considers Albania as his homeland or fatherland but Greece.

Also the Chams living in Greece were not considered Arvanites

Arvanites is a different thing they came all between the 13th and 16th century and all of them are Greek Orthodox.

If you tell an Arvanitis that his fatherland is not Greece but Albania he actually gets very angryxD

[Tauromachos]

Thank you for posting, gentlemen

I hope more people will lend their insights.. The topic is worthy of a good discussion, IMO.. These Arvanites are one of the Balkan's ethnological points of interest..

Arvanites as such exist only in Greece nowhere else in the Balkans

In Italy they are called Arbereshe they are from Greek Arvanite stock who migrated there during times of the Greek revolts and uprisings
against Ottomans to excape the Ottoman revengefull wrath

[Dna8]

Arvanites descend from Orthodox people who started moving from Arvanon in Albania
into Greece since the 13th and till the 16th century.

Since then they live in Greece and they also mixed or intermarried with the neighbouring Greek Mainland people
living next to them.

All this happend before Albania as a modern nation came into existence
They live to long in Greece to be Albanians anymore
hence Arvanites view Greece as their homeland and not Albania.


They are not Albanian

No Arvanitis considers Albania as his homeland or fatherland but Greece.

Also the Chams living in Greece were not considered Arvanites

Arvanites is a different thing they came all between the 13th and 16th century and all of them are Greek Orthodox.

If you tell an Arvanitis that his fatherland is not Greece but Albania he actually gets very angryxD


Arvanites as such exist only in Greece nowhere else in the Balkans

In Italy they are called Arbereshe they are from Greek Arvanite stock who migrated there during times of the Greek revolts and uprisings
against Ottomans to excape the Ottoman revengefull wrath

Cheers

Do we know much about how the people who would become Arvanites viewed themselves, prior to their being Hellenized?

[Eastern88]

Arvanites are descended from Middle Ages Albanians who called their selfs Arbër this is what Arvanites call their selfs too today. The term Arvanites is Greek one.Until 19th century Arvanites called Greeks "shkije" which is an Albanian term used to describe non-Albanians (for exampe the term is used to describe Serbs in Kosovo and Fyromians in Fyrom and etc ).Saying the first Arvanites were Greeks is like saying Middle Ages Albanians were Greeks.

After 19th century Arvanites got assimilated by different gonverments,some just left the traditional life and moved in cities so lost their identity.Only some of them today keep their real identity almost all consider their selfs Greeks or just "Arvanites"

So I would say Arvanites are "lost Albanians"

[Eastern88]

Also religion played a significant role this is why many of them dont consider Albania as their homeland unlike their brothers Arbëreshët in Italy who basically are the same people with Arvanites who consider Albanians as brothers

Hope this helps my friend :)

[Dna8]

Arvanites are descended from Middle Ages Albanians who called their selfs Arbër this is what Arvanites call their selfs too today. The term Arvanites is Greek one.Until 19th century Arvanites called Greeks "shkije" which is an Albanian term used to describe non-Albanians (for exampe the term is used to describe Serbs in Kosovo and Fyromians in Fyrom and etc ).Saying the first Arvanites were Greeks is like saying Middle Ages Albanians were Greeks.

After 19th century Arvanites got assimilated by different gonverments,some just left the traditional life and moved in cities so lost their identity.Only some of them today keep their real identity almost all consider their selfs Greeks or just "Arvanites"

So I would say Arvanites are "lost Albanians"

Cheers, man

[Tauromachos]

Arvanites are descended from Middle Ages Albanians who called their selfs Arbër this is what Arvanites call their selfs too today.

No ,Ghegs call themselves Sqipetar

A term never known or used by Arvanites

[Tauromachos]

Also religion played a significant role this is why many of them dont consider Albania as their homeland unlike their brothers Arbëreshët in Italy who basically are the same people with Arvanites who consider Albanians as brothers

Hope this helps my friend :)

They don't consider Albania as their homeland because
at the time of their migration to Greece

1)Albania as a country didn't exist
2)They live since then in Greece
3)They have also mingled with the local Greeks and their history is to intervowen with Greece
by now for them to feel any strong tie to Albania

They are not Albanians

You can go and try to convince an Arvanitis that he is Albanian but it might end up with a fist in your
face:)

[Alboz]

Actually, it's very simple. I don't understand why some people make it difficult.

Simple:

- in the past, Albanians called themselves Arber/Arbnor/Arbereshe and their land Arberia;
- Arvanites are people that from Arberia (today Albania) migrated to Greece as soldiers;
- Arbeshe are same as Arvanites but they migrated to Italy (a few of them from Arvanite communities in Greece, most of them directly from Albania);
- Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks;
- Arbereshe today self-identify as Italians but many of them aren't ashamed of their Albanian origin and they did fought for Albanian cause, they gave Albanians great intellectuals and promoted the Albanian language.

And yes, Albanians existed in the past because there were people who spoke Albanian and call themselves Arbnor. This means that there were people who were aware of a "specific" ethnicity, otherwise they won't have a name for themselves and their land. Of course, people in the past were different from "today people". But this is true for every Country, Nation, Ethnicity on this Planet, even for the neighbourses of Albanians. So, please, spare us some of nonsense that i read on this forum.

My theory is that Arvanites were mostly soldiers and peasants people, so not much educated. Arbereshe were mostly intellectual and noble people.This is the reason why they resisted more the assimilation and contribute, intellectually, to the Albanian cause during Albanian National Awakening.

If you want to know more about Arbereshe people, this is the page of "Piana degli Albanesi", an Arbereshe Comune in Sicily:

https://it-it.facebook.com/pianadeglialbanesihora/

This is the page of "Alejandro Greco", an Arbereshe priest in Argentina (amongst Italian immigrants in Argentina - between 1880 - 1920 - there were many Arbereshe too so they created a community there):

https://www.facebook.com/arzobispo.aleksander

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-027759ec77aa2909285c0b85c3f6c9df

Their costumes and music:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTosFH1Y9cQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raIOoHKJuhg

About Arvanites:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55USbm8NdLA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhwOGCiDryo

I don’t know if she is a real historian and if the translation is correct or not. Her knowledge of when Albanian language was written for the first time is totally incorrect so i don’t know how much we can trust her about the other things in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2XZmTB5W0

[ShenGjergj]

They are not Albanian

No Arvanitis considers Albania as his homeland or fatherland but Greece.

Also the Chams living in Greece were not considered Arvanites

Arvanites is a different thing they came all between the 13th and 16th century and all of them are Greek Orthodox.

If you tell an Arvanitis that his fatherland is not Greece but Albania he actually gets very angryxD

It's not something surprising.

[ShenGjergj]

Arvanites, Arbereshe, Arabanas, Arnaut, Arberore different name but basically the same meaning, all of them are seen as old Albanians in different region such as Croatia, Italy, Turkey but in Greece not and we know why.

[Eastern88]

They don't consider Albania as their homeland because
at the time of their migration to Greece

1)Albania as a country didn't exist
2)They live since then in Greece
3)They have also mingled with the local Greeks and their history is to intervowen with Greece
by now for them to feel any strong tie to Albania

They are not Albanians

You can go and try to convince an Arvanitis that he is Albanian but it might end up with a fist in your
face:)Doesnt matter they may kill me also but that cannot change the truth

[Sturmgewehr]

OK my two cents on the subject.

I as an Albanian could not give a goddamn shit who Arvanites are and how that effects my well being and I also do not understand what difference it makes if they are Albanians or descendants of Albanians or Greeks, I also do not understand why Greeks give too much of a shit about a couple of piss poor villages in northwestern Greece.

Based on Ethno Linguistical evidence, Arvanites are obviously of Albanian origin or at least a mix of Albanians and Greeks and whatever lived there.

I see some hillariously silly arguments being set forth so I am going to address them here.


They don't consider Albania as their homeland because
at the time of their migration to Greece

I am Albanian and I also do not consider Albania as my homeland and that is because it is not my homeland however that does not mean I deny my Albanian heritage and I despise Albanians or I deny my cultural links to the main land, borders as we all know are subjective, it was simply decided that a line will separate two land masses however that does not mean that it separates people culturally, genetically and spiritually, I do not automatically become Lithuanian once I move to Lithuania, I am still a Shqiptar/Albanian.


No ,Ghegs call themselves Sqipetar

A term never known or used by Arvanites

But Albanians do not just call themselves Shqiptar all the time, we also call ourselves Arbror, Arbresh and it is not unusually that a particular group of people referred to themselves differently in different periods of times.
Shqiptars are Arberesh and Arberor depending on the dialect.

You have many instances of that and I find it also very hypocritical when a Greek makes this argument when they themselves claim people who never called thelselves greeks such as Macedonians that they are Greeks and also did Philip and Alexander not refer to themselves as the king of Macedon and not king of Greekmalakis ?

Also are you Greek or Hellenic or Dorians or Myceneans or Acheans, I mean make up your mind and I am not saying this to make fun of you, I am just pointing out how people due to different social dynamics referred to themselves differently, it could be due to political reasons, alliances. convenience, shifts in ideologies like religious ideologies and so on but bottom line Acheans are Greeks, Arberesh are Albanians and so are Arvanites.

Also you have modern day Iranians who call themselves Iranians and Persians or they say I speak Persian or Farsi it does not matter how they refer to themselves, obviously it would be idiotic to claim that Iranians are not Persians.

There is also the Case of Cambodia, up to 1975 they called themselves Khmer before that they called themselves Chenla now it is Cambodia.

A German or a French can make the same argument against each other tell them nah you are not a German you are just a Carolingian or you are an East Frank or west Frank blla blla blla, in the end we all know what the Term German means and used in context for the literate ones it is obvious why they called themselves Carolingians, East Franks, Prussians, Deutsch and German, bottom line those are the same people who speak the same language East Franks spoke, Prussians spoke and Bavarians spoke.

The shift and change from Arberesh is not like Albanians forgot they were Arbresh and suddenly they learned today, the term Arberor is still used amongst Albanians but due to convenience we call each other Shqiptar and when we talk to foreigners due to convenience we refer to ourselves as Albanians, I am not gonna tell a French or Norwegian I come from Shqipria since it will confuse him.

Also it is interesting why would Greeks nowadays refer to other Greeks with a derivative name they refer to Albanians, Arvanitka, Arvanoi.



No such thing as Albanian as Albanians didnt exist in Europe pre 13th century. Ali Pasha ruled his little hamlet for awhile and while buttfucking and turning Albos into muslims where muslims dominated the area where also no Greek schools and Greeks spoke several languages to trade and Ali Pasha Albanian was one of them.

Aaaaaahm how about you present some facts along with such outrageous claims.

[cheekibreeki]

No such thing as Albanian as Albanians didnt exist in Europe pre 13th century. Ali Pasha ruled his little hamlet for awhile and while buttfucking and turning Albos into muslims where muslims dominated the area where also no Greek schools and Greeks spoke several languages to trade and Ali Pasha Albanian was one of them.

Well at least Albanian indentify exist long before so called modern Greeks , Western Europe didn’t know how to call your people until 19th century , they said that they look like turks but have a different religion so let just call them “Greeks” .

[Dna8]

I appreciate all the replies, folks

Cheers