PDA

View Full Version : Biblical: Patrilineal Jewish heritage



Mo123
01-11-2019, 10:03 AM
Hey guys.

So in rabbinical Judaism a person is jewish if his mother was jewish. This comes from the roman law "Mater semper certa est" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mater_semper_certa_est) - the mother is always certain.

But as we read in the Tanach (Old Testament), the heritage of the Jews is confirmed by Avraham, Jaakov and Yitzchak. Nowhere in the bible is stated, that a man is not a Jew if his mother was not jewish.

So is it biblical to call a patrilineal Jew a Jew? Of course it would not be rabbinically or talmudic confirmed, but they may are wrong.

ModernMaskil
01-11-2019, 10:53 AM
If you're interested in this, read up on Karaite Jews. They believe that the Tanakh is the divine written Law and that the "oral tradition" also known as the Talmud is a bunch of hooey. Personally I agree with them (at least, to the degree that a secular person can). They use patrilineal heritage and pray on their knees like Muslims - most Rabbinical authorities don't consider them to be Jewish.

Pandur
01-11-2019, 11:48 AM
You should call them talmudic bastards.

Phenix
01-11-2019, 12:42 PM
Discussing the issue with many orthodox rabbis, their answer was clear, there are no half-Jews for them, either you are Jewish by your mother or Goy, even if it's not biblical, Talmud affirm the supremacy of clerics over scriptures, for rabbis you can only read Tanakh by using talmudic interpretation.
Because the mother is sure as they said, they are paranoid from Goyim contamination, the father can be a plumber or a gardener who knows?
The Karaite have a different approach, don't recognize the Talmud, and follow the patrilineal heritage.

Mo123
01-11-2019, 01:05 PM
Discussing the issue with many orthodox rabbis, their answer was clear, there are no half-Jews for them, either you are Jewish by your mother or Goy, even if it's not biblical, Talmud affirm the supremacy of clerics over scriptures, for rabbis you can only read Tanakh by using talmudic interpretation.
The Karaite have a different approach, don't recognize the Talmud, and follow the patrilineal heritage.
Funny, right? Because when you read the bible you find not one single word about matrilineal heritage defining whether you're jewish or not. It's all about the forefathers, beginning with Avraham. Also, your tribe is defined by your father, so when you're Cohen (like me) but you don't have a jewish mother, you don't only lose your paternal tribe, but also your claim to the jewish people. That's craziness.

Phenix
01-11-2019, 01:54 PM
Funny, right? Because when you read the bible you find not one single word about matrilineal heritage defining whether you're jewish or not. It's all about the forefathers, beginning with Avraham. Also, your tribe is defined by your father, so when you're Cohen (like me) but you don't have a jewish mother, you don't only lose your paternal tribe, but also your claim to the jewish people. That's craziness.

What can you do? it's their rules, btw you have a cool ancestry.

Peterski
01-11-2019, 02:18 PM
Jews became matrilineal only during the Middle Ages.

Óttar
01-11-2019, 02:21 PM
Funny, right? Because when you read the bible you find not one single word about matrilineal heritage defining whether you're jewish or not. It's all about the forefathers, beginning with Avraham. Also, your tribe is defined by your father, so when you're Cohen (like me) but you don't have a jewish mother, you don't only lose your paternal tribe, but also your claim to the jewish people. That's craziness.
You can always convert.

Mo123
01-11-2019, 02:44 PM
You can always convert.
I know, but thats not the point. I feel more jewish by my paternal side, than I would, if it would be my mother. Can't say why, but for me the paternal side is more dominant.
There is nothing interesting for me in Judaism as a religion, mostly because of its rabbinical and talmudic infiltration. They even claim to be "The Jewish People" and nobody else has the right to claim his belonging to this people if not permitted by rabbis. But the ancient hebrew people and the bible has nothing to do with rabbinical or talmudic culture.
This pisses me off, to be honest.

ModernMaskil
01-11-2019, 03:15 PM
I know, but thats not the point. I feel more jewish by my paternal side, than I would, if it would be my mother. Can't say why, but for me the paternal side is more dominant.
There is nothing interesting for me in Judaism as a religion, mostly because of its rabbinical and talmudic infiltration. They even claim to be "The Jewish People" and nobody else has the right to claim his belonging to this people if not permitted by rabbis. But the ancient hebrew people and the bible has nothing to do with rabbinical or talmudic culture.
This pisses me off, to be honest.

If there's nothing interesting to you in Judaism, why do you give a fuck what the Ultra-Orthodox rabbis think? Most Jews don't follow their bullshit. To me, if you consider yourself Jewish despite all the shit we've been through and the "reputation" we have - you're a Jew.

Still, you're wrong about one thing. The "Rabbinical or Talmudic culture" as you put it has everything to do with the ancient Hebrew people. The Talmud and the Rabbis have existed since before the Second Temple was built. The Temple was and is the holiest site in Judaism, and by definition Jews (also known as the Hebrew people), at least up until the enlightenment, followed Judaism.

Óttar
01-11-2019, 03:30 PM
If there's nothing interesting to you in Judaism, why do you give a fuck what the Ultra-Orthodox rabbis think? Most Jews don't follow their bullshit. To me, if you consider yourself Jewish despite all the shit we've been through and the "reputation" we have - you're a Jew.

Still, you're wrong about one thing. The "Rabbinical or Talmudic culture" as you put it has everything to do with the ancient Hebrew people. The Talmud and the Rabbis have existed since before the Second Temple was built. The Temple was and is the holiest site in Judaism, and by definition Jews (also known as the Hebrew people), at least up until the enlightenment, followed Judaism.

Genetic tests have shown that certain Indian Jews have the most direct connection to the Jews of ancient Babylon. It has been documented that they have practiced Judaism for at least 1,000 years (attested with textual evidence), yet they have to be vetted by a bunch of Polish-derived Orthodox rabbis in Israel to be considered "real" Jews.

Sacrificed Ram
01-11-2019, 03:47 PM
Judah had his children with a canaanite woman, Tamar, by pure matrilineal line, jews don't exist.

ModernMaskil
01-11-2019, 03:50 PM
Genetic tests have shown that certain Indian Jews have the most direct connection to the Jews of ancient Babylon. It has been documented that they have practiced Judaism for at least 1,000 years (attested with textual evidence), yet they have to be vetted by a bunch of Polish-derived Orthodox rabbis in Israel to be considered "real" Jews.

Other than the Pardesis and Baghdadis, who trace their origins to Sephardi and Iraqi Jews respectively I'm not aware of any Indian Jewish groups with any genetic connection whatsoever to either Babylonian or Levantine Jews.

They can be vetted by "Iraqi derived" rabbis in Israel too, if they choose. Ashkenazim don't have a monopoly on the rabbinate. And those "Polish derived Orthodox rabbis" have also practiced Judaism for over 1000 years, and also have a "direct connection to the Jews of Babylon", depending what you mean by that. If anything, by the way, they are derived from the Levant and Central Europe, not Poland.

Óttar
01-11-2019, 04:02 PM
Other than the Pardesis and Baghdadis, who trace their origins to Sephardi and Iraqi Jews respectively I'm not aware of any Indian Jewish groups with any genetic connection whatsoever to either Babylonian or Levantine Jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Y-DNA_of_Indian_Jews

ModernMaskil
01-11-2019, 04:07 PM
Genetic analysis shows that the Bene Israel of India cluster with the indigenous populations of western India, but do have a clear paternal link to the populations of the Levant.

Where do you see anything about Babylonian Jews? Also that statement means that those Polish derived rabbis have far more of a connection to ancient Jews than Indian Jews do.

Óttar
01-11-2019, 04:26 PM
Where do you see anything about Babylonian Jews? Also that statement means that those Polish derived rabbis have far more of a connection to ancient Jews than Indian Jews do.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5020127/

Maybe you're right. Upon further research, it seems that their connection to Babylonian Jewry is speculative, perhaps bordering on mythological, but it has been shown that their presence in India and identity as Jews has been attested since the 9th century, and I just find it strange that their sincerity or authenticity as Jews has to be vetted by Ashkenazim in 19th century Russian clothing.

Longbowman
01-11-2019, 04:30 PM
Hey guys.

So in rabbinical Judaism a person is jewish if his mother was jewish. This comes from the roman law "Mater semper certa est" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mater_semper_certa_est) - the mother is always certain.

But as we read in the Tanach (Old Testament), the heritage of the Jews is confirmed by Avraham, Jaakov and Yitzchak. Nowhere in the bible is stated, that a man is not a Jew if his mother was not jewish.

So is it biblical to call a patrilineal Jew a Jew? Of course it would not be rabbinically or talmudic confirmed, but they may are wrong.

Interesting perspective but lacking nuance, my patrilineal Christian friend. Ezra makes it clear that having a Jewish father is not sufficient:

Ezra 9:


9 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, “The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.”

3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.

5 Then, at the evening sacrifice, I rose from my self-abasement, with my tunic and cloak torn, and fell on my knees with my hands spread out to the Lord my God 6 and prayed:

“I am too ashamed and disgraced, my God, to lift up my face to you, because our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens. 7 From the days of our ancestors until now, our guilt has been great. Because of our sins, we and our kings and our priests have been subjected to the sword and captivity, to pillage and humiliation at the hand of foreign kings, as it is today.

8 “But now, for a brief moment, the Lord our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place[a] in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage. 9 Though we are slaves, our God has not forsaken us in our bondage. He has shown us kindness in the sight of the kings of Persia: He has granted us new life to rebuild the house of our God and repair its ruins, and he has given us a wall of protection in Judah and Jerusalem.

10 “But now, our God, what can we say after this? For we have forsaken the commands 11 you gave through your servants the prophets when you said: ‘The land you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the corruption of its peoples. By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity from one end to the other. 12 Therefore, do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them at any time, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it to your children as an everlasting inheritance.’

13 “What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins deserved and have given us a remnant like this. 14 Shall we then break your commands again and intermarry with the peoples who commit such detestable practices? Would you not be angry enough with us to destroy us, leaving us no remnant or survivor? 15 Lord, the God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence.”

It is very evident that it is not permissible to marry a foreigner who has not converted. It is 'pollution' (God's word not mine). Sorry!

Perhaps this is your confusion: Abraham was not a Jew, or an Israelite, merely ancestral to Israelites. You, as a half-Israelite, may be considered half-Israelite, but in no way are you considered Jewish, which is a somewhat different concept and additionally you would not have been considered Jewish by the great sages of antiquity or of the Bible, particularly Ezra, of course.

ModernMaskil
01-11-2019, 04:33 PM
I just find it strange that their sincerity or authenticity as Jews has to be vetted by Ashkenazim in 19th century Russian clothing.

Well, I agree with that - lol. Should've said so in the first place. As I've already mentioned so long as someone considers themselves a Jew they're a Jew as far as I'm concerned.

Mo123
01-11-2019, 04:35 PM
Judah had his children with a canaanite woman, Tamar, by pure matrilineal line, jews don't exist.

Juda married a canaanite woman, and Tamar was the wife of one of his sons. She gave birth to two sons of Juda, but the bible doesn't say if she was hebrew or canaanite.

Longbowman
01-11-2019, 04:37 PM
Well, I agree with that - lol. Should've said so in the first place. As I've already mentioned so long as someone considers themselves a Jew they're a Jew as far as I'm concerned.

Not in any meaningful way. There are 1/8 Ashkenazim in the US who are Anglo in every single way who try to speak for Jews. Their self-identification is meaningless. Another meaningless example is the Jews for Jesus community which tries to get schools in my area to let them lecture kids about Judaism. Another ridiculous auto-designation. They're mostly not ethnic Jews either.

Peterski
01-11-2019, 04:41 PM
yet they have to be vetted by a bunch of Polish-derived Orthodox rabbis in Israel to be considered "real" Jews.

What do you mean by Polish-derived? Polish Jews are not descended from local converts to Judaism. There is some local admixture but it is a minor part of their ancestry.

Polish Germans (Germans from territory of Poland) are way more Slavic-descended than Polish Jews. Yet on these white nationalist forums they always claim the opposite.

Longbowman
01-11-2019, 04:45 PM
More from Ezra (Chapter 10):


10 While Ezra was praying and confessing, weeping and throwing himself down before the house of God, a large crowd of Israelites—men, women and children—gathered around him. They too wept bitterly. 2 Then Shekaniah son of Jehiel, one of the descendants of Elam, said to Ezra, “We have been unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women from the peoples around us. But in spite of this, there is still hope for Israel. 3 Now let us make a covenant before our God to send away all these women and their children, in accordance with the counsel of my lord and of those who fear the commands of our God. Let it be done according to the Law. 4 Rise up; this matter is in your hands. We will support you, so take courage and do it.”

5 So Ezra rose up and put the leading priests and Levites and all Israel under oath to do what had been suggested. And they took the oath. 6 Then Ezra withdrew from before the house of God and went to the room of Jehohanan son of Eliashib. While he was there, he ate no food and drank no water, because he continued to mourn over the unfaithfulness of the exiles.

7 A proclamation was then issued throughout Judah and Jerusalem for all the exiles to assemble in Jerusalem. 8 Anyone who failed to appear within three days would forfeit all his property, in accordance with the decision of the officials and elders, and would himself be expelled from the assembly of the exiles.

9 Within the three days, all the men of Judah and Benjamin had gathered in Jerusalem. And on the twentieth day of the ninth month, all the people were sitting in the square before the house of God, greatly distressed by the occasion and because of the rain. 10 Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have been unfaithful; you have married foreign women, adding to Israel’s guilt. 11 Now honor[a] the Lord, the God of your ancestors, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives.”

12 The whole assembly responded with a loud voice: “You are right! We must do as you say. 13 But there are many people here and it is the rainy season; so we cannot stand outside. Besides, this matter cannot be taken care of in a day or two, because we have sinned greatly in this thing. 14 Let our officials act for the whole assembly. Then let everyone in our towns who has married a foreign woman come at a set time, along with the elders and judges of each town, until the fierce anger of our God in this matter is turned away from us.” 15 Only Jonathan son of Asahel and Jahzeiah son of Tikvah, supported by Meshullam and Shabbethai the Levite, opposed this.

16 So the exiles did as was proposed. Ezra the priest selected men who were family heads, one from each family division, and all of them designated by name. On the first day of the tenth month they sat down to investigate the cases, 17 and by the first day of the first month they finished dealing with all the men who had married foreign women.

Those Guilty of Intermarriage
18 Among the descendants of the priests, the following had married foreign women:

From the descendants of Joshua son of Jozadak, and his brothers: Maaseiah, Eliezer, Jarib and Gedaliah. 19 (They all gave their hands in pledge to put away their wives, and for their guilt they each presented a ram from the flock as a guilt offering.)

20 From the descendants of Immer:

Hanani and Zebadiah.

21 From the descendants of Harim:

Maaseiah, Elijah, Shemaiah, Jehiel and Uzziah.

22 From the descendants of Pashhur:

Elioenai, Maaseiah, Ishmael, Nethanel, Jozabad and Elasah.

23 Among the Levites:

Jozabad, Shimei, Kelaiah (that is, Kelita), Pethahiah, Judah and Eliezer.

24 From the musicians:

Eliashib.

From the gatekeepers:

Shallum, Telem and Uri.

25 And among the other Israelites:

From the descendants of Parosh:

Ramiah, Izziah, Malkijah, Mijamin, Eleazar, Malkijah and Benaiah.

26 From the descendants of Elam:

Mattaniah, Zechariah, Jehiel, Abdi, Jeremoth and Elijah.

27 From the descendants of Zattu:

Elioenai, Eliashib, Mattaniah, Jeremoth, Zabad and Aziza.

28 From the descendants of Bebai:

Jehohanan, Hananiah, Zabbai and Athlai.

29 From the descendants of Bani:

Meshullam, Malluk, Adaiah, Jashub, Sheal and Jeremoth.

30 From the descendants of Pahath-Moab:

Adna, Kelal, Benaiah, Maaseiah, Mattaniah, Bezalel, Binnui and Manasseh.

31 From the descendants of Harim:

Eliezer, Ishijah, Malkijah, Shemaiah, Shimeon, 32 Benjamin, Malluk and Shemariah.

33 From the descendants of Hashum:

Mattenai, Mattattah, Zabad, Eliphelet, Jeremai, Manasseh and Shimei.

34 From the descendants of Bani:

Maadai, Amram, Uel, 35 Benaiah, Bedeiah, Keluhi, 36 Vaniah, Meremoth, Eliashib, 37 Mattaniah, Mattenai and Jaasu.

38 From the descendants of Binnui:[b]

Shimei, 39 Shelemiah, Nathan, Adaiah, 40 Maknadebai, Shashai, Sharai, 41 Azarel, Shelemiah, Shemariah, 42 Shallum, Amariah and Joseph.

43 From the descendants of Nebo:

Jeiel, Mattithiah, Zabad, Zebina, Jaddai, Joel and Benaiah.

44 All these had married foreign women, and some of them had children by these wives.[c]

Fucked up anthro-autist shit, but it's Christian and Jewish canon and it makes it clear that intermarriage is a sin and your children will not be Jewish regardless of whether or not you have a dick.

Sacrificed Ram
01-11-2019, 08:47 PM
Juda married a canaanite woman, and Tamar was the wife of one of his sons. She gave birth to two sons of Juda, but the bible doesn't say if she was hebrew or canaanite.

At time of Judah existed only 14 israelites, Jacob himself, his 11 brothers and his sister Dinah. The bible says Judah found Tamar distant from his family, then it makes obvious she was canaanite. And jews are the descendants of Judah, then the only way to he marry a jew woman, was marring a daughter or granddaughter.

Mo123
01-11-2019, 08:50 PM
At time of Judah existed only 14 israelites, Jacob himself, his 11 brothers and his sister Dinah. The bible say Judah found Tamar distant from his family, then it makes obvious she was canaanite.
This is a fabolous argument, Sir! :)

Sacrificed Ram
01-11-2019, 08:59 PM
This is a fabolous argument, Sir! :)

The only way Tamar be an israelite was she be a niece of him, the Biblical text is obvious it isn't that fact, then she was canaanite.

Longbowman
01-11-2019, 10:44 PM
The Bible also allows for male converts to Judaism who thereafter joined the Israelites, such as Yitro and entire groups like the Kenites.

The line of any Jew who converts from Judaism ceases to be Jewish in perpetuity.

Sacrificed Ram
01-12-2019, 10:31 AM
The Bible also allows for male converts to Judaism who thereafter joined the Israelites, such as Yitro and entire groups like the Kenites.

The line of any Jew who converts from Judaism ceases to be Jewish in perpetuity.

The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel were "lost" because they adopted pagan religions. How will they turn back claiming their old israelite root if you said "who converts from Judaism ceases to be Jewish in perpetuity"?

Longbowman
01-12-2019, 01:19 PM
The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel were "lost" because they adopted pagan religions. How will they turn back claiming their old israelite root if you said "who converts from Judaism ceases to be Jewish in perpetuity"?

1) they were 'lost' because the Assyrians deported and destroyed them
2) the 'return of the lost tribes' is a myth. There is nothing canonical about their return in Judaism. In fact the Bible specifically mentions refugees from various tribes joining Judah and Benjamin. Simeon probably merged with Judah. These are the 'lost tribes.'

The Samaritans are also descended from Ephraim, Menashe, Levi and other tribes.

If their descendants 'return' it will involve conversion to Judaism.

Sacrificed Ram
01-12-2019, 09:46 PM
1) they were 'lost' because the Assyrians deported and destroyed them
2) the 'return of the lost tribes' is a myth. There is nothing canonical about their return in Judaism. In fact the Bible specifically mentions refugees from various tribes joining Judah and Benjamin. Simeon probably merged with Judah. These are the 'lost tribes.'

The Samaritans are also descended from Ephraim, Menashe, Levi and other tribes.

If their descendants 'return' it will involve conversion to Judaism.

Important point of view, but we know doesn't exist unanimity into Judaism(s).

Longbowman
01-12-2019, 09:59 PM
Important point of view, but we know doesn't exist unanimity into Judaism(s).

'good argument but other people disagree, so I'm right'

come on man.

Longbowman
01-12-2019, 10:29 PM
Christian scripture makes it clear that I am correct:

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Chronicles-Chapter-9/

Ephraim, Menashe, Levi, Benjamin, Judah all specifically mentioned by name as 'returning' after the first exile. Simeon also implied. That's 6/12 right there.

https://www.biblica.com/bible/?osis=niv:Luke.2:36%E2%80%932:36

Christian scripture makes it clear Asherites were living in Israel in Jesus' time.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt25b30.htm#1

Isachaarites, Zebulunites, Asherites and men from Ephraim and Menashe come to Jerusalem to reconnect with Yahweh for Passover under Hezekiah. Danites recorded as invited, but not attending.

Sacrificed Ram
01-12-2019, 11:13 PM
'good argument but other people disagree, so I'm right'

come on man.

Is my english so broken and bad?

I'm nothing arguing with you, I'm just consulting if there is some contradiction in your words, I'm not doing none affirmation to prove I'm righter than you.