Medieval Russian had Germanic admixture?

[Peterski]

Early Medieval Russian Sunghir6 was clearly more western-shifted than modern Russians.

You can find Sunghir6 on this map of ancient DNA samples (it is located east of Moscow):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/53.840/25.554

Here is what I obtained in K36 nMonte:

Sunghir6

Polish_Mazovia,46.6
Silesia_German,17.4
Polish_Warsaw,16.8
Belarusian_Vitebsk,15.6
Russia_Mordovia,3.6

And in terms of closest single items:

Polish_Mazovia 9.234051
Polish_Warsaw 9.565474
Russian_Kursk 11.264866
Russian_Smolensk 11.427651
Ukrainian_Kharkiv 11.632068
Ukrainian_Vinnytsia 11.723549
Russian_Oryol 11.756403

Perhaps he was partially Varangian?

[Cumansky]

Run Sunghir6 in some real calcs..

[Mingle]

Maybe. Or he could have just lacked the Uralic admixture that modern Russians have.

[Peterski]

Maybe. Or he could have just lacked the Uralic admixture that modern Russians have.

The algorithm had enough of Non-Uralic admixed Non-Russian Slavic populations to pick from to add up to 100%, but chose an Eastern German population instead.

Of course Eastern Germans themselves are heavily Slavic-admixed but they also have Germanic ancestry.

====

He already had some Uralic (Mordvin) admixture, but only 4%. Modern Russians from this area have more.

[Leto]

The algorithm had enough of Non-Uralic admixed Non-Russian Slavic populations to pick from to add up to 100%, but chose an Eastern German population instead.

Of course Eastern Germans themselves are heavily Slavic-admixed but they also have Germanic ancestry.

====

He already had some Uralic (Mordvin) admixture, but only 4%. Modern Russians from this area have more.
"4% Mordvin" doesn't equal 4% Uralic. Sergey Kozlov told me that most Russians actually share fewer IBD markers (or whatever it is called) with Mordovians than people think. He said so about my mother's DNA for example (he said she had no Mordovian or Mari ancestry judging by the IBD markers) and she is Northeastern.
Anyway, one individual is obviously not enough to make any conclusion. We need more samples.

[Leto]

Of course Eastern Germans themselves are heavily Slavic-admixed but they also have Germanic ancestry.
.
Dude, you say this in every other thread. What do you actually mean by Eastern Germany. The Cold War-era term "East Germany" is not rooted in genetics, not even in strict geography (Thüringen and Saxony-Anhalt are not very eastern and I don't think they're so Slavic, probably not at all)
https://www.pebbzwei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Pebb_Zwei/Standorte/pebb_deutschlandkarte_sachsen_anhalt_thueringenn.p ng
You basically sound like you want to show they are some German speaking West Slavs.
I don't think Northern Bavaria and Eastern Hessen are very different from Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt from Eastern Lower Saxony. Not to mention that West Germany (BRD) received a few million Polish, Czech and Hungarian Germans after their violent expulsion in 1946.

[Mingle]

Dude, you say this in every other thread. What do you actually mean by Eastern Germany. The Cold War-era term "East Germany" is not rooted in genetics, not even in strict geography (Thüringen and Saxony-Anhalt are not very eastern and I don't think they're so Slavic, probably not at all)
https://www.pebbzwei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Pebb_Zwei/Standorte/pebb_deutschlandkarte_sachsen_anhalt_thueringenn.p ng
You basically sound like you want to show they are some German speaking West Slavs.
I don't think Northern Bavaria and Eastern Hessen are very different from Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt from Eastern Lower Saxony. Not to mention that West Germany (BRD) received a few million Polish, Czech and Hungarian Germans after their violent expulsion in 1946.

He's probably referring to the lands east of the black line over here:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

I know its a map of Y-DNA, but there's likely a correlation.

Czechs get East German as their top match on GEDmatch. They're not identical to West Slavs, but they're close.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

East Germans are mix of Germanic and Slavic blood. Very far from being just Slavic lmao. Slavs that cluster close to East Germans get that due to having some genuine Germanic ancestry. You won't find Belarussian clustering with them

[Leto]

Well, modern Germany is basically Central Europe, a crossroads between the areas historically inhabited by Slavs, Germanics and Celts.

[Peterski]

Dude, you say this in every other thread. What do you actually mean by Eastern Germany.

There is not that much difference, for example such Brandenburg is very Slavic/Eastern-shifted.

But what is used as "East German" average in Eurogenes K13/K15, are samples from Saxony.

[Norb]

Well, modern Germany is basically Central Europe, a crossroads between the areas historically inhabited by Slavs, Germanics and Celts.

yes modern Germany but how about it 100 years ago?

[Peterski]

Mazovians are the most eastern-shifted (or north-eastern shifted) Poles. But I wonder if this is caused by having Baltic admixture, or not having Germanic admixture.

The latter would be strange because Goths during their migration from the Baltic Sea coast to the Black Sea coast lived in Mazovia for a long time.

[Mingle]

If modern day Western Poland, meaning the pre-WW2 German territories (Szczecin, Wroclaw, etc), were still German-majority to this day, I wonder how much Slavic they'd score. They may have had even more Slavic than Czechs.

[Peterski]

Dude, you say this in every other thread. What do you actually mean by Eastern Germany.

There is not that much difference, for example Brandenburg is very Slavic/Eastern-shifted.

But what is used as "East German" average in Eurogenes K13/K15 are samples from Saxony.

[Peterski]

If modern day Western Poland, meaning the pre-WW2 German territories (Szczecin, Wroclaw, etc), were still German-majority to this day, I wonder how much Slavic they'd score. They may have had even more Slavic than Czechs.

My Silesian German samples are from the vicinity of Wrocław, in Eurogenes K13/K15 they are closest to Hungarians in "Single Population Approximation".

In Global25 Hungarians plot west of Czechs?

[Mingle]

My Silesian German samples are from the vicinity of Wrocław, in Eurogenes K13/K15 they are closest to Hungarians in "Single Population Approximation".

In Global25 Hungarians plot west of Czechs?

From what I remember you saying a while back, Hungarians are genetically more western than Czechs.

So Germans from Western Poland are more western shifted than those from Eastern Germany despite them being geographically further east?

Do you know what Germans from Vorepommern are genetically like?

[Peterski]

From what I remember you saying a while back, Hungarians are genetically more western than Czechs.

So Germans from Western Poland are more western shifted than those from Eastern Germany despite them being geographically further east?

No they aren't more western-shifted.

Czechs plot halfway between South Poles and East Germans from Saxony (look at Apricity 2019 PCA, the East German average in Eurogenes K15 are Germans from Leipzig, the same as "German_Lipsian" in one of MDLP calculators).

But there is also a north-south axis of course.

[Peterski]

I will model Silesian German average as a mix of Saxony German average + South Polish, to see how much more Slavic-shifted they are than Saxony. But I'm not sure if that is a correct model because Germans could migrate to Silesia directly from West Germany, without mixing with Sorbs (Saxony Germans are mixed with them).


Do you know what Germans from Vorepommern are genetically like?

Yes, they are significantly more eastern-shifted than Western Mecklenburg (for example).

And their Germanic admixture is rather of Scandinavian origin, not South/West German.

[Ülev]

first of all, that was Central Germany before 1945


The division of Germany was put into effect on 1 July 1945. Because of their unexpectedly rapid advances through central Germany in the final weeks of the war, British and American troops occupied large areas of territory that had been assigned to the Soviet zone of occupation. The redeployment of Western troops prompted many Germans to flee to the West to escape the Soviet takeover of the remainder of the Soviet zone.[10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border

[Lucas]

There was suggestion from Davidski(?) that this sample was contaminated. He didn't use it in G25. So any discussion is useless.

[Pandur]

I thought this was obvious lol

[Not a Cop]

There was suggestion from Davidski(?) that this sample was contaminated. He didn't use it in G25. So any discussion is useless.

Sample had high East-Euro and very low Fennoscandian, like 6% either we don't know something or it's a bit contaminated indeed.

[Peterski]

Sample had high East-Euro and very low Fennoscandian, like 6% either we don't know something or it's a bit contaminated indeed.

On the other hand this Medieval Lithuanian (DA171) with N1c had higher Fennoscandian than Bronze Age Balts:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?274354-N1c-in-Balts-came-with-Finnic-admixture

Which makes me think that N1c in Balts has Iron Age Finnic origin (not Scandinavian origin as some speculated).


There was suggestion from Davidski(?) that this sample was contaminated. He didn't use it in G25.

Yes, he said it is ca. 10% contaminated with modern DNA. But would that really affect the results in such a way (shifting it west)? And whose DNA contaminated it? If Russian scientists contaminated it with their own modern DNA, then it would rather make it more eastern-shifted.


So Germans from Western Poland are more western shifted than those from Eastern Germany?

Nope. I checked what I promised to check in one of previous posts:

Germans from Silesia are like a mix of ca. 35% Germans from East Germany + ca. 65% Poles:

Silesia_German

Polish_Wielkopolska,47
German_Saxony,35
Polish_Malopolska,18

And closest single populations (in this case they are closest to Polish-speaking Upper Silesians):

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Polish_Upper-Silesia
Polish_Wielkopolska
Polish_Malopolska
German_Saxony
Polish_Lubelskie
(...)

With other models (e.g. using only Eastern Poles) I get mixes closer to 50/50 of Saxony/Poles.