Why is Scandinavia mostly I1 rather than R1b ?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

when Netherlands, Germany, England and other Germanic countries have more R1b. I have a theory I haplogroup is somehow connected to mountain chains in Europe which makes sense if you look at it.
European plains are mostly R1b/R1a because of steppe invaders while mesolithic population retreated to mountains.

Scandinavia is mountanious and I1, dinaric alps also mountanious and I2. I1 is Germanic marker but obviously non indo european yet Scandos are purest Germanics out there.

what's explanation for I1 dominance in north Europe ?

[Dick]

There is more R1(both A and B) than I1 in Sweden

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

There is more R1(both A and B) than I1 in Sweden

It's still that I1 is higher than R1b in every nordic country.
https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/VWkMlvNl93NRBRJRHzTK8g--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9MTMxMztxPTk1O3c9MTYwMA--/http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-isjbcUVXQyY/UA63zH3YLUI/AAAAAAAAADQ/TyhyPzWW5JM/s1600/y-dna_haplogroups_europe_genetic_map.png

[Dick]

It's still that I1 is higher than R1b in every nordic country.
https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/VWkMlvNl93NRBRJRHzTK8g--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9MTMxMztxPTk1O3c9MTYwMA--/http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-isjbcUVXQyY/UA63zH3YLUI/AAAAAAAAADQ/TyhyPzWW5JM/s1600/y-dna_haplogroups_europe_genetic_map.png

I1 in Saami is dated from the 14th century. This is quite late in Saami history

[Leto]

The haplogroup reaches its peak frequencies in Sweden (52 percent of males in Västra Götaland County) and western Finland (more than 50 percent in Satakunta province).[8] In terms of national averages, I-M253 is found in 35–38 per cent of Swedish males,[9] 32.8% of Danish males,[10] about 31.5% of Norwegian males,[11] and about 28% of Finnish males.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253#Geographical_distribution

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Germanic I1
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3xG1ziSYmdY/UL2cyGhZcCI/AAAAAAAACE8/yHyyus1PlYs/s1600/I1.png

vs Germanic R1b
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/U106-S21-poE-CT.png

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I1 in Saami is dated from the 14th century. This is quite late in Saami history

Swedish/Norwegian admixture most likely.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253#Geographical_distribution

I mean it's individually far most common marker out there even if it's not above 50% (which is rare for most populations). I always tought Scandinavians would have most Indo-European blood but seems it's not the case when it comes to Ydna. Because they live in mountain chains! Aryans settled in plains mostly.

[Leto]

I mean it's individually far most common marker out there even if it's not above 50% (which is rare for most populations). I always tought Scandinavians would have most Indo-European blood but seems it's not the case when it comes to Ydna. Because they live in mountain chains! Aryans settled in plains mostly.
I think it is the native Northern European haplogroup. Interestingly it is very common in Southern and Southwestern Finland (50% in Satakunta as the quote says).

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

apparently there's few other strongly Germanic haplogroups.

Germanic I2
http://www.norwaydna.no/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Haplogroup-I2b-Eupedia.gif

Germanic R1a
https://s3.amazonaws.com/photos.geni.com/p13/02/f8/13/62/53444839cf658d24/r1a-l448_mariusz_large.jpg

[Dick]

I mean it's individually far most common marker out there even if it's not above 50% (which is rare for most populations). I always tought Scandinavians would have most Indo-European blood but seems it's not the case when it comes to Ydna. Because they live in mountain chains! Aryans settled in plains mostly.

They had horses that’s why they liked the plains

[Ülev]

that site can help: http://europasoberana.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-new-racial-classification-i.html

in short:
White Nordids = I1 or/and I2a2 (eventually I2a1)


Psychology, idiosyncrasy and racial character: Love for honour, attachment to order, respect for authority and seniority, warlike and military vocation, courage, altruism, loyalty, racism, heroism, self-control, discipline. Intelligence, thoughtfulness. Highly developed willpower, leaning to sports training. Eagerness to explore.

Also innocent, unable to cheat, and useless in diplomacy. This race is not shrewd, not because it lacks intelligence, but due to an "angelical" way of understanding the world. This makes them vulnerable in a degraded and debased modern society, so that darker and more primitive racial types tend to take advantage of them. It’s the myth of the unworried and trusting Siegfried and the "stab in the back" archetype.

and about Red Nordids (R1b or/and R1a)


Psychology, idiosyncrasy and racial character: Love for Nature, patriotism, attachment to the homeland, intelligence, impulsiveness, unpredictable personality, prone to fits of fury and sudden uprisings, proclivity to excesses in violence matters, but also to overwhelming joy. Traditional Western medicine considered redheads as "blood" tempered individuals, whereas the ancient Indian Ayurvedic medicine describes them as being Pitta types (associated with fire; this also proves that ginger hair was not unknown in India and that there were redheads during the Indo-Aryan migration). Strength, roughness, fierceness, very developed character, individualism, strong temperament, good memory. This is doubtlessly the race of passion, fire, anger, extremism and even of some cruelty.

A more noisy and Dionysian personality than the White Nordids, which is one of the reasons why Spaniards usually say that they fit better with the Irish (which have a great Red Nordid heritage) than with populations with a larger cultural and genetic White Nordic imprint that are more serious —like Englishmen, Germans or Scandinavians.

On the basis of evidence in archaeological sites and mummies, as well as descriptions of Scottish Picts (which were probably of Red Nordid heritage), it seems this race was inclined toward tattoos (even in the face) and corporal paintings, utilizing a blue pigment called "woad" in Scotland.

--

and that does not work with I2a1 folk for sure - Balkan wars in the nineties

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

that site can help: http://europasoberana.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-new-racial-classification-i.html

in short:
White Nordids = I1 or/and I2a2 (eventually I2a1)



and about Red Nordids (R1b or/and R1a)


--

and that does not work with I2a1 folk for sure - Balkan wars in the nineties

lol

[Dorian]

Seems like the aryan/nordic invader women prefered the local CM slayeroids just like in India/Southern europe etc.
The dark,brutal&exotic fetish nordic women have goes way back and it's going to be the end of them.
I1 will be replaced by J1 cousins and the result will be robust CM influenced/blue eyed arabids.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AyOqC5px_qkT-bzPvufiJK4xAa0fKg1zaJLqrWvRWRJio6bhrjIiNh800vrK77V j-cpADkSHMun9aNDebDuZWnI

[Finnish Swede]

I think it is the native Northern European haplogroup. Interestingly it is very common in Southern and Southwestern Finland (50% in Satakunta as the quote says).

Ostrobothnia ....


This is pretty interesting. Finns I1 (M253 group and its subgroups) is not harmonious unity. I marked red color those mutations which have happened in Finland. Quick looks tells that I1 people have arrived in Finland in different waves.

M253 - 4700 BP
- Z17954
- - FGC37297 - 3400 BP
- - - Y19086 - 350 BP
- DF29 - 4700 BP
- + Y11210 - 1650 BP
- - - A14411 - 1000 BP
- - - - A14404 - 700 BP
- - - - - A14407
- + CTS6364
- - - Y3886
- - - - A5338
- - - - - BY19608 - 2800 BP
- - - - - - BY19612 - 900 BP
- - - - S4767
- - - - - Y6339
- - - - - - Y12045
- - - - - - Y22497 - 2800 BP
- - - - - - - Y29646 - 600 BP
- - - Z2337
- - - - JN38 - 750 BP
- - - - - JN42
- - - - L22 - 4100 BP
- - - - - Y3603
- - - - - CTS11603
- - - - - - Z2338
- - - - - - - BY35222
- - - - - - - L300 - 2300 BP
- - - - - - - - CTS9310 - 1400 BP
- - - - - - - - - BY35467
- - - - - - - - - - CTS108 - 700 BP
- - - - - S25633
- - - - - - BY35223
- - - - - - - BY35222
- - - - - - - - BY40080 - 500 BP
- - - - - - P109 - 3400 BP
- - - - - - - Y3662
- - - - - - - - S14887
- - - - - - - - - S18218
- - - - - CTS6868
- - - - - - Y17927 - 2700 BP
- - - - - - - Y17923 - 900 BP
- - - - - - - - Y17922 - 500 BP
- - - - - - Z74 - 4100 BP
- - - - - - - L813
- - - - - - - - BY35356
- - - - - - - - - BY35348 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - BY35351
- - - - - - - - Y30806
- - - - - - - - - BY3474 - 400 BP
- - - - - - - - Y18927
- - - - - - - - - Y21736
- - - - - - - - - - Y20861 - 2100 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y23712 - 1650 BP
- - - - - - - CTS2208 - 2900 BP
- - - - - - - - Y20287
- - - - - - - - CTS7676
- - - - - - - - - BY35390 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - L287 - 1900 BP
- - - - - - - - - - BY594 - 1450 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y62054
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y65525
- - - - - - - - - - L258 - 1700 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y82245
- - - - - - - - - - - - A14162
- - - - - - - - - - - Y92046
- - - - - - - - - - - Y23448 - 1300 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - BY3475
- - - - - - - - - - - Y33689 - 1450 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - CTS2242
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y36521
- - - - - - - - - - - - Z133 - 1400 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Z134
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY511 - 1250 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CTS3496
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y13482
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33709
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y15894 - 1300 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY3476
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY545
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y8954
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - PF1123
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y20304
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y34543
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y15897
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17288
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16812 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY35437
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y22004
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y24060
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y22888
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - M120
- - - - - - - - - - - Z2045 - 1650 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y17401
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y21555
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y21558
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y17220
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33713
- - - - - - - - - - - BY2572 - 1450 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - BY35406
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y133865
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y58278
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - L296
- - - - - - - - - - - - - BY35405
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y13389
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17215
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y13390
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33704
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33707
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y19655
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33715
- - - - - - - - - - - Y8598 - 1500 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y17639
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y16256
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16174
- - - - - - - - - - - BY510
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y2426
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17381
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17380
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16170
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16342
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y15585
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y15859
- + Z58 - 4700 BP
- - - Z59
- - - - Z62
- - - - - Z60
- - - - - - Y12342
- - - - - - - A1914 - 3500 BP
- - - - - - - A6198
- - - - - - - - A6172
- - - - - - - - - A6173 - 2300 BP
- - - - - - - - - - A9237
- - - - - - - - - - Y36038 - 1000 BP
- - - - - - - - - - M1728 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - A6178
- - - - - - Z140
- - - - - - - Z141
- - - - - - - - F2642
- - - - - - - - - CTS6772
- - - - - - - - - - Y3649
- - - - - - - - - - - BY31666 - 2800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - A7145 - 1650 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - A18503 - 700 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - A7142 - 1100 BP
- - - - - - CTS7362
- - - - - - - CTS9352 - 3800 BP
- - - - - - - - Z73 - 2200 BP
- - - - - - - - - BY266
- - - - - - - - - - L1302 - 1700 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - FGC8688
- - - - - - - - - - - - BY212
- - - - - - - - - - - BY147
- - - - - - - - - - - A9901
- - - - Z2041
- - - - - Z2040
- - - - - - Z382 - 3500 BP
- - - - - - - Y5384
- - - - - - - - Y11930 - 1800 BP
- - - - - - - - - Y15694
- - - - - - - - - - Y29641 - 700 BP
- - - - - - - - - A9373 - 1550 BP
- - - - - - - - - - Y19079 - 400 BP
- + Z63 - 4200 BP
- - - BY151
- - - - L849
- - - - - S2078
- - - - - - PR683/Y2245
- - - - - - - S10360
- - - - - - - - Y6228
- - - - - - - - - BY316 - 2500 BP
- - - - - - - - - - Y84131 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y89083

[Dick]

Ostrobothnia ....


This is pretty interesting. Finns I1 (M253 group and its subgroups) is not harmonious unity. I marked red color those mutations which have happened in Finland. Quick looks tells that I1 people have arrived in Finland in different waves.

M253 - 4700 BP
- Z17954
- - FGC37297 - 3400 BP
- - - Y19086 - 350 BP
- DF29 - 4700 BP
- + Y11210 - 1650 BP
- - - A14411 - 1000 BP
- - - - A14404 - 700 BP
- - - - - A14407
- + CTS6364
- - - Y3886
- - - - A5338
- - - - - BY19608 - 2800 BP
- - - - - - BY19612 - 900 BP
- - - - S4767
- - - - - Y6339
- - - - - - Y12045
- - - - - - Y22497 - 2800 BP
- - - - - - - Y29646 - 600 BP
- - - Z2337
- - - - JN38 - 750 BP
- - - - - JN42
- - - - L22 - 4100 BP
- - - - - Y3603
- - - - - CTS11603
- - - - - - Z2338
- - - - - - - BY35222
- - - - - - - L300 - 2300 BP
- - - - - - - - CTS9310 - 1400 BP
- - - - - - - - - BY35467
- - - - - - - - - - CTS108 - 700 BP
- - - - - S25633
- - - - - - BY35223
- - - - - - - BY35222
- - - - - - - - BY40080 - 500 BP
- - - - - - P109 - 3400 BP
- - - - - - - Y3662
- - - - - - - - S14887
- - - - - - - - - S18218
- - - - - CTS6868
- - - - - - Y17927 - 2700 BP
- - - - - - - Y17923 - 900 BP
- - - - - - - - Y17922 - 500 BP
- - - - - - Z74 - 4100 BP
- - - - - - - L813
- - - - - - - - BY35356
- - - - - - - - - BY35348 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - BY35351
- - - - - - - - Y30806
- - - - - - - - - BY3474 - 400 BP
- - - - - - - - Y18927
- - - - - - - - - Y21736
- - - - - - - - - - Y20861 - 2100 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y23712 - 1650 BP
- - - - - - - CTS2208 - 2900 BP
- - - - - - - - Y20287
- - - - - - - - CTS7676
- - - - - - - - - BY35390 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - L287 - 1900 BP
- - - - - - - - - - BY594 - 1450 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y62054
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y65525
- - - - - - - - - - L258 - 1700 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y82245
- - - - - - - - - - - - A14162
- - - - - - - - - - - Y92046
- - - - - - - - - - - Y23448 - 1300 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - BY3475
- - - - - - - - - - - Y33689 - 1450 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - CTS2242
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y36521
- - - - - - - - - - - - Z133 - 1400 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Z134
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY511 - 1250 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CTS3496
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y13482
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33709
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y15894 - 1300 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY3476
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY545
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y8954
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - PF1123
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y20304
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y34543
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y15897
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17288
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16812 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BY35437
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y22004
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y24060
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y22888
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - M120
- - - - - - - - - - - Z2045 - 1650 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y17401
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y21555
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y21558
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y17220
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33713
- - - - - - - - - - - BY2572 - 1450 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - BY35406
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y133865
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y58278
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - L296
- - - - - - - - - - - - - BY35405
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y13389
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17215
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y13390
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33704
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33707
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y19655
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y33715
- - - - - - - - - - - Y8598 - 1500 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y17639
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y16256
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16174
- - - - - - - - - - - BY510
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y2426
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17381
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y17380
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16170
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Y16342
- - - - - - - - - - - - Y15585
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Y15859
- + Z58 - 4700 BP
- - - Z59
- - - - Z62
- - - - - Z60
- - - - - - Y12342
- - - - - - - A1914 - 3500 BP
- - - - - - - A6198
- - - - - - - - A6172
- - - - - - - - - A6173 - 2300 BP
- - - - - - - - - - A9237
- - - - - - - - - - Y36038 - 1000 BP
- - - - - - - - - - M1728 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - A6178
- - - - - - Z140
- - - - - - - Z141
- - - - - - - - F2642
- - - - - - - - - CTS6772
- - - - - - - - - - Y3649
- - - - - - - - - - - BY31666 - 2800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - A7145 - 1650 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - A18503 - 700 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - - - A7142 - 1100 BP
- - - - - - CTS7362
- - - - - - - CTS9352 - 3800 BP
- - - - - - - - Z73 - 2200 BP
- - - - - - - - - BY266
- - - - - - - - - - L1302 - 1700 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - FGC8688
- - - - - - - - - - - - BY212
- - - - - - - - - - - BY147
- - - - - - - - - - - A9901
- - - - Z2041
- - - - - Z2040
- - - - - - Z382 - 3500 BP
- - - - - - - Y5384
- - - - - - - - Y11930 - 1800 BP
- - - - - - - - - Y15694
- - - - - - - - - - Y29641 - 700 BP
- - - - - - - - - A9373 - 1550 BP
- - - - - - - - - - Y19079 - 400 BP
- + Z63 - 4200 BP
- - - BY151
- - - - L849
- - - - - S2078
- - - - - - PR683/Y2245
- - - - - - - S10360
- - - - - - - - Y6228
- - - - - - - - - BY316 - 2500 BP
- - - - - - - - - - Y84131 - 800 BP
- - - - - - - - - - - Y89083

which one does your dad belong to?

[Finnish Swede]

which one does your dad belong to?

None. He is Southern Swedish.

If I remember correctly: L22 and subgroup P109+ (which is common Southern Scandinavia/Denmark).

[Blondie]

Genetic map of Mesolithic Europe:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/8000BCE-haplogroups.png

[Phenix]

I1 is the Proto-Germanic haplogroup and reached Scandinavia a short time before the Indo-European migrations, the latter were horseman and invaded plains letting the mountainous systems, this can explain the predominance of I1 and I2 in Scandinavia and Dinaric Alps respectively.


Seems like the aryan/nordic invader women prefered the local CM slayeroids just like in India/Southern europe etc.
The dark,brutal&exotic fetish nordic women have goes way back and it's going to be the end of them.
I1 will be replaced by J1 cousins and the result will be robust CM influenced/blue eyed arabids.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AyOqC5px_qkT-bzPvufiJK4xAa0fKg1zaJLqrWvRWRJio6bhrjIiNh800vrK77V j-cpADkSHMun9aNDebDuZWnI

Wonderful perspective.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

They had horses that’s why they liked the plains

Plains were better real estate in past, so stronger men took them, because they were more fertile.

[rein]

Seems like the aryan/nordic invader women prefered the local CM slayeroids just like in India/Southern europe etc.
The dark,brutal&exotic fetish nordic women have goes way back and it's going to be the end of them.
I1 will be replaced by J1 cousins and the result will be robust CM influenced/blue eyed arabids.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AyOqC5px_qkT-bzPvufiJK4xAa0fKg1zaJLqrWvRWRJio6bhrjIiNh800vrK77V j-cpADkSHMun9aNDebDuZWnI

Poor Sweden.

[Imperator Biff]

Oldest I1 sample is from Hungarian_LBKT (Nagy et al 2014) so it probably arrived into Scandinavia along with the spread of agriculture during the neolithic.

[Harkonnen]

Swedish/Norwegian admixture most likely.

Sami I1 could be Finnish. Finnish Sami have more I1 than in Sweden or Norway. Also they lack the R1b's and R1a's of Saami's in Sweden. Also a lot of Saami N1c1 looks like it could be of Finnish origin.

[Artek]

Oldest I1 sample is from Hungarian_LBKT (Nagy et al 2014) so it probably arrived into Scandinavia along with the spread of agriculture during the neolithic.

That's also how I view it. We shouldn't be biased by the fact that it was an I haplogroup. Neolithic farmers absorbed their part of "foreign" lines with haplogroup I being probably the most numerous.

So to be honest, I think that it is just a pure dice roll that G2a, I2, H2 or C-V20 is not a dominant lineage in Scandinavia. So many people belong to an almost extinct clade that started gaining its presence only 5000 years ago. Could be pretty much anything present in Scandinavia that time.

There is also other possibility - it may be a very rare surviving local hunter-gatherer lineage in Scandinavia. It still had to be absorbed either by neolithic farmers or by Indo-Europeans.