Levant Admixture in Europe

[Kaspias]

Welcome to 6W1H with Kaspias.

Which people have moss, which people have less?
Why they have?
How they got ?
Where does it originated?
When does it originated?
Who bring it to the Europe?
What do you think about your Levant admixture?
Should we consider Levants as part of med-race or just middle-easterners?

Discuss.

[lonewolfcypriot]

Levantines are Middle-Easterners and South Europeans only have tiny amounts except for Cypriots.

[Kaspias]

Levantines are Middle-Easterners and South Europeans only have tiny amounts except for Cypriots.

Can you prove this?

[lonewolfcypriot]

Can you prove this?

Just look at any PCA and you'll know

[Kaspias]

Just look at any PCA and you'll know


Levantines are Middle-Easterners and South Europeans only have tiny amounts except for Cypriots.


I don't think this statement is accurate. PCA's can't give any opinion about ethnicity's admixture spreading tbh. What is the referance point for "East_Med" in Gedmatch calculators, for example?

[lonewolfcypriot]

I don't think this statement is accurate. PCA's can't give any opinion about ethnicity's admixture spreading tbh. What is the referance point for "East_Med" in Gedmatch calculators, for example?

references in Gedmatch calculators act more like coordinates rather than actual admixture percentages. That is why someone from Greece might get 1.00% SSA and can be completely white

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

East Med is Levantine component. Red Sea is Arab. West Med = Southern Euro. West Asian = Kavkazoid. You can look it up in the spreadsheets

[Kaspias]

East Med is Levantine component. Red Sea is Arab. West Med = Southern Euro. West Asian = Kavkazoid. You can look it up in the spreadsheets

I agree with you. But still can't answer all questions.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

references in Gedmatch calculators act more like coordinates rather than actual admixture percentages. That is why someone from Greece might get 1.00% SSA and can be completely white

1% SSA is for sure real.

[Haider]

East Med is Levantine component. Red Sea is Arab. West Med = Southern Euro. West Asian = Kavkazoid. You can look it up in the spreadsheets

West Med = Anatolian

[Kaspias]

West Med = Anatolian

Ancient Anatolian*

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

West Med = Anatolian

It peaks in Europeans not Turks lmao

[Deniz]

I consider East_Med,Red_Sea,Near_East,South West Asian,Any type African admixtures as a Levant in Europe,Anatolia or Caucasia.Also The sorting is very important too.For example 1-West Asia2East med>Anatolian-Caucasian.1East Med2West Asia>Directly Levant for me.This is my opinion.

[Haider]

It peaks in Europeans not Turks lmao

It doesn't change the fact it originated in Anatolia.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

It doesn't change the fact it originated in Anatolia.

Nobody gives a fuck where it originates, but where it peaks. WHG might have origin in Iran, it peaks in Baltic region. Calling completely European component Anatolian is misleading because people will think it's typical for Turkey or something. Southwest Euros are highest in this type of ancestry but all other Europeans have plenty including north Europe.

[Livin]

It doesn't change the fact it originated in Anatolia.

West Med=Anatolian Neolithic and East Med=Levant neolithic?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

West Med=Anatolian Neolithic and East Med=Levant neolithic?

To put it simple. West Med = White. East Med = Brown (non White)

[Kaspias]

I consider East_Med,Red_Sea,Near_East,South West Asian,Any type African admixtures as a Levant in Europe,Anatolia or Caucasia.Also The sorting is very important too.For example 1-West Asia2East med>Anatolian-Caucasian.1East Med2West Asia>Directly Levant for me.This is my opinion.

I suppose West Asia = Levant equation can be wrong sometimes.

[lonewolfcypriot]

Welcome to 6W1H with Kaspias.

Which people have moss, which people have less?
Why they have?
How they got ?
Where does it originated?
When does it originated?
Who bring it to the Europe?
What do you think about your Levant admixture?
Should we consider Levants as part of med-race or just middle-easterners?

Discuss.

Let me answer each question for u
1.Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians, Cypriots, South Italians, Aegean Islanders the most. Other Southern Europeans and Turks the least.
2.Many migrations, Phonecians for example
3.Same as no.2
4.Levant
6.Same as no.2
7. I don't think anything about it
8. Many wouldn't consider East-Meds as Europeans. They are associated with MENA

[Livin]

To put it somple. West Med = White. East Med = Brown (non White)

Now i got it why i am brown xddd :D

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Now i got it why i am brown xddd :D

We all got little bit brown in us lol.

[Livin]

We all got little bit brown in us lol.

My people score on gedmatch very high west asia and east med.Witch means they are a mix of Caucasus Hunter Gatheners(aka kavkaz) and farmers from the region of levant right?

[Kaspias]

Let's add Caucasia(West Asia) to the question. Not only Europe.

I used Global25 and Ph2ter's calculator. Appearently Cyprians used for referance point and Levant score includes some EEF too, not only Levantine. In this sense their scores will be overrated. But still gives clues.

Levantine scores of populations;

Turkish_Adana 55
Turkish_Istanbul 40
Georgian 30
Adyge 10
Greek 45
Bulgarian 30
Serbian 27.5
Italian_Bergamo 20
Italian_South 55
Spanish 10

etc.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

My people score on gedmatch very high west asia and east med.Witch means they are a mix of Caucasus Hunter Gatheners(aka kavkaz) and farmers from the region of levant right?

I am still learning genetics bro, maybe some better versed member can give you proper answer on this.

[Kaspias]

My people score on gedmatch very high west asia and east med.Witch means they are a mix of Caucasus Hunter Gatheners(aka kavkaz) and farmers from the region of levant right?

Basically, yes. But not only levant farmers i suppose.

[Livin]

Basically, yes. But not only levant farmers i suppose.

And from anatolia due to some west med admixture probably.

[Kaspias]

And from anatolia due to some west med admixture probably.

Yes.

[Faklon]

These components are 1 decade old and never used in any peer-reviewed study, West-Med turned to be a Neolithic+WHG mix when East-med is a more purely Neolithic with some CHG mix.

To find a recent(non-neolithic) Levantine mixture you have to check recent IBD shares or isolate a component in the Levant from the Neolithic farmer migrations. Otherwise, you have to judge by farmer ancestry which is shared highly between the Levant and Europe but it doesn't show a (recent) admixture.

Also, Haak et al.(2015)

https://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/727/files/2015/06/Haak-et-al-2015-Figure-3-Admixture-Proportions-in-Modern-DNA-With-Linguistic-and-Historical-Origins-Added.png

https://i.ibb.co/Kz50g3c/greekbeduin.jpg

[Kaspias]

.

Good point. But if we can't isolate Levant from farmers, what is the exact element that provides us separate east_med and west_med from each other?

[Faklon]

Good point. But if we can't isolate Levant from farmers, what is the exact element that provides us separate east_med and west_med from each other?

WHG vs CHG

[Kaspias]

WHG vs CHG

Then modelling EEF + WHG + CHG together can give us accurate information. More CHG with EEF = more Levant influence.

[Faklon]

Then modelling EEF + WHG + CHG together can give us accurate information. More CHG with EEF = more Levant influence.

Rather only EEF, otherwise break it with IBD sharing or take a more isolated component than East-med. CHG indicators in Levant can also very well be Indo-European(more recent than farmers).

[Phenix]

references in Gedmatch calculators act more like coordinates rather than actual admixture percentages. That is why someone from Greece might get 1.00% SSA and can be completely white

What needed to be said.


Then modelling EEF + WHG + CHG together can give us accurate information. More CHG with EEF = more Levant influence.

Briefly, that's it.

[Tauromachos]

references in Gedmatch calculators act more like coordinates rather than actual admixture percentages. That is why someone from Greece might get 1.00% SSA and can be completely white

Even if you have 1% or 10% real SSA ancestry you most likely look completly
white.

[Kaspias]

Even if you have 1% or 10% real SSA ancestry you most likely look completly
white.

Yes. 1%=nothing actually.

[lonewolfcypriot]

Even if you have 1% or 10% real SSA ancestry you most likely look completly
white.

It usually becomes visible past 5%

[Phenix]

Yes. 1%=nothing actually.

1% is not influential at all, and probably not exact.

[rein]

It usually becomes visible past 5%

Even 1 drop is enough to change looks.

[Tauromachos]

It usually becomes visible past 5%

I do not think so

It can become visible but doesn't have to

A white person with 10% SSA is probably not even remotly looking close
to a real black

[Kaspias]

It usually becomes visible past 5%

2% may visible. On the other hand, 15% may not be visible. But genetically, 1% don't point out any significant admixture. Only can give some information about your ancestors who lived from 300 years before, for example. - only if it is not noise -

[lonewolfcypriot]

I do not think so

It can become visible but doesn't have to

A person with 10% SSA is probably not even remotly looking close
to a real black

I've seen someone who was 5% black and he looked 25% black

[Tauromachos]

I've seen someone who was 5% black and he looked 25% black

It can turn out this way but it also can't

Also how does a 25% Black person look like

[Smeagol]

Levantines are Middle-Easterners and South Europeans only have tiny amounts except for Cypriots.

South Italians can be modeled genetically as half Lebanese, half North Italian.

[Dick]

South Italians can be modeled genetically as half Lebanese, half North Italian.

All of today's italians were genetically the same before barbarian invasions which makes north italians different from south italians. Token posted a recent study.

[Marmara]

East Med peaks in Levant, West Asian peaks in Caucasus.

South Europeans have much more East Med than West Asian, it can be said that East Med is the most influential non-European component in Europe.

[Deniz]

I've seen someone who was 5% black and he looked 25% black

Ethnic minorities usually have these type differences.%5 %10 percents are the proxy for background.

[Marmara]

South Italians can be modeled genetically as half Lebanese, half North Italian.

Italy only got whiter.

[rein]

Italy only got whiter.

Before it had Turkish and Bosnian looks during Roman Empire times.

[Tauromachos]

Of course Sicilians will have the most

[Phenix]

South Italians can be modeled genetically as half Lebanese, half North Italian.


Italy only got whiter.

The two statements are both true.

[lonewolfcypriot]

East Med peaks in Levant, West Asian peaks in Caucasus.

South Europeans have much more East Med than West Asian, it can be said that East Med is the most influential non-European component in Europe.

People from Turkey have high East Med as well don't deny it:)

[lonewolfcypriot]

deleted

[Kaspias]

People from Turkey have high East Med as well don't deny it:)

He hasn't denied lol

[Deniz]

He hasn't denied lol

:lol:

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

East Med peaks in Levant, West Asian peaks in Caucasus.

South Europeans have much more East Med than West Asian, it can be said that East Med is the most influential non-European component in Europe.

lol nope. I score higher West Asian than East Med, and I learned I am southern European other day.


1 North_Sea 25.1
2 Baltic 19.52
3 Atlantic 17
4 Eastern_Euro 10.91
5 West_Asian 9.64
6 West_Med 8.93
7 East_Med 6.77
8 Red_Sea 0.97
9 Amerindian 0.87
10 Sub-Saharan 0.15
11 Oceanian 0.13

[Kaspias]

Interesting thing - although can be explained when we look migration route - despite west med originated in Anatolia, Turks only have 10-12% West_Med.

[Dorian]

In the cases of red hair or light eyes which are recessive genes ,you need copies of these genes from both parents(who might not have these traits) and then there is 25% chance for them to be expressed,so my pure guess is that something similar can happen in the case of small admixture of anything but the possibilities of them appearing get lower.
1,5-3,00% is like 4g-5g parents

Cristiano Ronaldo is said to have a ggfather from Cape Verde(who're not pure africans themselves) and his son(meaning 3g son) looks like this
https://perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/cristian-soccer.jpg

[Kaspias]

.

Yes, fixed.


2% may visible. On the other hand, 15% may not be visible. But genetically, 1% don't point out any significant admixture. Only can give some information about your ancestors who lived from 300 years before, for example. - only if it is not noise -

[lonewolfcypriot]

East-Med is practically Levantine admixture. No more no less

[Kaspias]

East-Med is practically Levantine admixture. No more no less

I agree but it is just basic explanation.

[lonewolfcypriot]

I agree but it is just basic explanation.

There is no deep explanation. That is it.

[Kaspias]

There is no deep explanation. That is it.

In recent genetic methods, just like global25, whole EEF counting as med and we use referances in order to seperate both. Just like gedmatch. Gedmatch calculators are using same coordinate method as you stated. So i suspect west_med + east_med can give exact amount of our med, but scores of each probably randomly spreading according to their general plot. In sum i think if gedmatch says you you're 10% east-med, it is not necessarily your exact levantine score. Probably close though.

Faklon's statement was decent.

[Dorian]

Yes, fixed.

I didn't understand the "fixed" thing.
As for the quote ,here's an example that recessive traits that have origins of 300 years can remain in a family tree (although it's not a similar case since in this population there will be others who carry these genes so that they can be recombined) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?274170-Classify-Cretan-athlete&p=5726332&viewfull=1#post5726332

[Kaspias]

I didn't understand the "fixed" thing.
As for the quote ,here's an example that recessive traits that have origins of 300 years can remain in a family tree (although it's not a similar case since in this population there will be others who carry these genes so that they can be recombined) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?274170-Classify-Cretan-athlete&p=5726332&viewfull=1#post5726332

Fixed=you explained very well.

[Marmara]

Interesting thing - although can be explained when we look migration route - despite west med originated in Anatolia, Turks only have 10-12% West_Med.

The J2 Armenoid chalcholitic invaders from Eastern Turkey replaced Anatolian farmers. Chalcholithic Anatolians were something like 70% Armenian 30% Sardinian.

[Livin]

The J2 Armenoid chalcholitic invaders from Eastern Turkey replaced Anatolian farmers. Chalcholithic Anatolians were something like 70% Armenian 30% Sardinian.

These anatolian farmers were g2a,witch means levantine farmers(who brought east med admixture) were something between J1 and Eb1b1?

[Marmara]

These anatolian farmers were g2a,witch means levantine farmers(who brought east med admixture) were something between J1 and Eb1b1?

Natufian farmers were E1b and genetically closest to Bedouins, their main admixture was Red Sea not East Med.

I don't know well what is the basis for East Med but i believe West Asian and East Med are related.

[rein]

Natufian farmers were E1b and genetically closest to Bedouins, their main admixture was Red Sea not East Med.

I don't know well what is the basis for East Med but i believe West Asian and East Med are related.

Natufians werent farmers.

[Marmara]

Natufians werent farmers.

Natufians were the first people to invent and use agriculture.

[Livin]

Natufian farmers were E1b and genetically closest to Bedouins, their main admixture was Red Sea not East Med.

I don't know well what is the basis for East Med but i believe West Asian and East Med are related.

I think both east med and west med were people with g2a lineages but the west admixture mixed with more WHG people.

[Livin]

Natufian farmers were E1b and genetically closest to Bedouins, their main admixture was Red Sea not East Med.

I don't know well what is the basis for East Med but i believe West Asian and East Med are related.

I think both east med and west med were people with g2a lineages but the west admixture mixed with more WHG people.