Does Sikeliot have any actual Lithuanian ancestry? (23andme update results)

[Sikeliot]

So 23andme finally confirmed our African to be from "Senegambia and Guinea" and "South Eastern Africa" (likely a Mozambican).

But let's address the Eastern European.

We know my mother's paternal ancestors were, mostly, Poles from Lithuania. But, my grandfather had several Polish-born ancestors also.

The part of Lithuania that it matches us to is Kaunas, which as far as I know was not one of the areas with the largest Polish minority.

For Poland it gives us regions close to Lithuania spreading all the way to southern and central Poland.

My personal guess is my grandfather's father is a full Pole, and his mother partly Lithuanian.

https://i.imgur.com/vMF7jCk.png
https://i.imgur.com/Cv1BnSO.png

[Tooting Carmen]

Quite possibly.

[Sikeliot]

Quite possibly.

I am wondering if it is picking up actual Lithuanian ancestry, or if it's picking up the Poles from Lithuania.

Is what is coming up "Polish" also including Polish Lithuanians and showing me where they came from in Poland before moving to Lithuania?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Most likely yes. It's far more common for minority to be mixed with locals in specific country than remain pure after centuries.

[Joso]

Possibly

[Sikeliot]

Most likely yes. It's far more common for minority to be mixed with locals in specific country than remain pure after centuries.

This side of the family is confusing for that reason.

What it looks like to me is this. For my grandfather this is the origin of the family...

Paternal grandfather's father: Lithuanian Polish
Paternal grandfather's mother: Polish born
Paternal grandmother: Polish born

Maternal grandfather: Lithuanian Polish
Maternal grandmother: Ethnic Lithuanian

Now the question is how much of those Lithuanian Polish peoples' ancestry came from Poland and remained pure, and how much mixed.

All of these people, with the exception of the ones born in Poland AND the maternal grandmother, spoke both languages.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

You need to take in account both Poles and Lithuanians are Catholic. There was no religious barrier to mix. Unlike Baltic Germans who were predominately Lutheran. Lot of Lithuanian nobility was polonized also.

[Sikeliot]

You need to take in account both Poles and Lithuanians are Catholic. There was no religious barrier to mix. Unlike Baltic Germans who were predominately Lutheran. Lot of Lithuanian nobility was polonized also.

So this means some of those Lithuanian-born Polish ancestors were Lithuanians who became culturally and linguistically Polish rather than being transplanted Poles from Poland.

[Smaug]

Lithuanian Poles are not really Poles. They are usually descendants of Polonized Lithuanians from the Middle Ages. Polish was a more prestigious language back then and many Lithuanians allowed themselves to be polonized.

[Sikeliot]

Lithuanian Poles are not really Poles. They are usually descendants of Polonized Lithuanians from the Middle Ages. Polish was a more prestigious language back then and many Lithuanians allowed themselves to be polonized.


So what it is reading as Polish ancestry on there, is that from the ancestors I have who were themselves Polish born? Or is it tracing where the Polish ancestors came from that went to Lithuania? Or both?

[Leto]

How much Eastern European are you on 23andme (new estimate)?

[Sikeliot]

How much Eastern European are you on 23andme (new estimate)?

18.7%

[Figaro]

Polish minorities and nobles in the eastern areas don't seem to have come in overwhelming numbers. Similarly, I long suspected the side of my family that was said to be Polish were Polish-Belarusian. Sure enough, genetic testing seems to be suggesting my east euro component is more East Slavic, plus some "actual" Polish. Maybe.

How does having some possible native Baltic admix make you feel? Pretty northern as fuck, bro! lol...

[Sikeliot]

Polish minorities and nobles in the eastern areas don't seem to have come in overwhelming numbers. Similarly, I long suspected the side of my family that was said to be Polish were Polish-Belarusian. Sure enough, genetic testing seems to be suggesting my east euro component is more East Slavic, plus some "actual" Polish. Maybe.

How does having some possible native Baltic admix make you feel? Pretty northern as fuck, bro! lol...

Well I would suspect a lot of East Slavs are Slavicized Baltic peoples. But yes, it is definitely ancestry I do not see in my face in the mirror.

[Figaro]

Well I would suspect a lot of East Slavs are Slavicized Baltic peoples. But yes, it is definitely ancestry I do not see in my face in the mirror.

I agree, I've been thinking East Slavs in general are the result of Baltic admix. Belarusians seem to have the premium of Baltic admix among Slavs, although of course Podlaskie poles and Russians near the territory of Belarus wil be comparable.

[Leto]

But yes, it is definitely ancestry I do not see in my face in the mirror.
And you despise anything that is lighter than what you see in the mirror.

[Leto]

I agree, I've been thinking East Slavs in general are the result of Baltic admix. Belarusians seem to have the premium of Baltic admix among Slavs, although of course Podlaskie poles and Russians near the territory of Belarus wil be comparable.
Balts and Slavs are closely related to each other anyway.

[Figaro]

Balts and Slavs are closely related to each other anyway.

Of course. But there are minor structural differences...I.e., more farmer, a little less WHG in Slavs. These things are relative and yes, they are quite very close in general.

[Leto]

Of course. But there are minor structural differences...I.e., more farmer, a little less WHG in Slavs. These things are relative and yes, they are quite very close in general.
Well, you mean the modern Baltic speakers. I'm not sure Eastern Balts in Russia and Belarus in 1019 were necessarily the same as modern Latvians.

[cass]

Lithuanian Poles are not really Poles. They are usually descendants of Polonized Lithuanians from the Middle Ages. Polish was a more prestigious language back then and many Lithuanians allowed themselves to be polonized.

How do you know they are not Poles? There were thousands of Poles living in Lithuania even in the early middle ages. Aldona brought 24.000 of them back to Poland in 1325. In that times it was 8% of Lithuanian population. During Union Lithuania faced massive migration from ethnic Poland first townspeople then peasants and little nobles especially after Russian deluge which simply emptied country.

[Not a Cop]

I aslo get Kaunas, my grandma's grandfather was Pole from Vilnus. In general Lithuanian Poles are more genetically similar to Lithuanians.

You can also check matches surnames, my grandma get tones of Lithuanians.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Balts and Slavs are closely related to each other anyway.

This applies only to Eastern Slavs and Poles though. Other Slavs, not so much.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Ashkenazi Jewish not ?

[Leto]

This applies only to Eastern Slavs and Poles though. Other Slavs, not so much.
I mean the original Slavs.

[Sikeliot]

Ashkenazi Jewish not ?

None. I used to score it but it got taken away: my mother never scored it.

[Leto]

Sikeliot, share your entire ancestry composition. How much Italian, how much Iberian, etc.

[tipirneni]

Even though not recently related many Indian castes show up big matches with Estonian, Lithuanian samples. When I checked the Estonian_Pole Behar samples, on an avg using 100SNP/1cM I was getting 425+ matches on the 11 samples on Genesis Gedmatch site. Considering no recent mixture those are big match.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Even though not recently related many Indian castes show up big matches with Estonian, Lithuanian samples. When I checked the Estonian_Pole Behar samples, on an avg using 100SNP/1cM I was getting 425+ matches on the 11 samples on Genesis Gedmatch site. Considering no recent mixture those are big match.

Aryan genetic link. Lithuanian is phonetically closest European language to Sanskrt. Among IE languages spoken in Europe Lithuanian features are most archaic.

[tipirneni]

Aryan genetic link. Lithuanian is phonetically closest European language to Sanskrt. Among IE languages spoken in Europe Lithuanian features are most archaic.

That might be it. Some Brahmin faces have some semblance to Polish & other Eastern people

[Peterski]

The part of Lithuania that it matches us to is Kaunas, which as far as I know was not one of the areas with the largest Polish minority.

https://i.imgur.com/Cv1BnSO.png

Not the largest indeed, but still 1/4 of the total population.

Distribution of ethnic Lithuanians around year 1900:

http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro/tartalom.php?nev=katA

Larger map shows ca. 1900, smaller map present-day:

http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro/kepek/netre/08.gif

Kaunas County (Uyezd) ethnic structure in ca. 1900:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kovensky_Uyezd

"At the time of the Russian Empire Census of 1897, Kovensky Uyezd had a population of 227,431. Of these, 41.4% spoke Lithuanian, 23.2% Polish, 19.8% Yiddish, 11.6% Russian, 2.3% German, 0.5% Tatar, 0.4% Belarusian, 0.1% Chuvash, 0.1% Ukrainian, 0.1% Karelian and 0.1% Udmurt as their native language."

[Sikeliot]

Not the largest indeed, but still 1/4 of the total population.

So it makes sense that there were some Polish identified people there.

I found out today that there was another family related to ours who lived in the same town in America and they were Poles from Poland, their surname was "Tarka" which is definitely Polish and not Lithuanian (and this surname exists in my own family tree), and they were related to us on one of the sides of the family that I was considering was possibly just Lithuanian until I figured that family is on that side and not the one I knew to be directly from Poland.

[Peterski]

So it makes sense that there were some Polish identified people there.

I found out today that there was another family related to ours who lived in the same town in America and they were Poles from Poland, their surname was "Tarka" which is definitely Polish and not Lithuanian (and this surname exists in my own family tree), and they were related to us on one of the sides of the family that I was considering was possibly just Lithuanian until I figured that family is on that side and not the one I knew to be directly from Poland.

I have an Y-DNA match from Kaunas Region, he is R1b-DF27 (and also the same subclade) like me.

His surname is a Lithuanized form of one Polish surname, apparently.

And he is Lithuanian-identified but during our discussion he has admitted that his direct paternal ancestors could be settlers from Poland.

There is also a famous Polish guy from Belarus who has the same surname as me, so I suppose that they (Belarusian branch of this surname) might have R1b-DF27 as well. Note that haplogroup R1b as a whole in Poland is almost 20% of the population, while in Lithuania around 5%.

[Sikeliot]

I have an Y-DNA match from Kaunas Region, he is R1b-DF27 (and also the same subclade) like me.

His surname is a Lithuanized form of one Polish surname, apparently.

And he is Lithuanian-identified but during our discussion he has admitted that his direct paternal ancestors could be settlers from Poland.

There is also a famous Polish guy from Belarus that has the same surname as me, so I suppose that they (Belarusian branch of this surname) might have R1b-DF27 as well.

Note that R1b in Poland is almost 20%, while in Lithuania around 5%.

I want to ask you about a surname if it is Polish, Lithuanian, or a Lithuanian-influenced Polish surname -- Jurgelevich. This exists in my family too.

[Peterski]

I want to ask you about a surname if it is Polish, Lithuanian, or a Lithuanian-influenced Polish surname -- Jurgelevich. This exists in my family too.

This one looks like an originally Belarusian (ruskie - Rusyn/Ruthenian) surname. See this page, "surnames of Kresy Poles":

http://forum.gazeta.pl/forum/w,249580,162891386,162891386,Nazwiska_Kresowiakow. html

255.Jurgielewicz:2-ruskie

So this surname exists among Eastern Poles, but is originally of East Slavic origin. Probably a Polonized Ruthenian family.

See also this thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?272797-Types-of-ethnic-Polish-surnames

[Sikeliot]

This one looks like an originally Belarusian (ruskie - Rusyn/Ruthenian) surname. See this page, "surnames of Kresy Poles":

http://forum.gazeta.pl/forum/w,249580,162891386,162891386,Nazwiska_Kresowiakow. html

255.Jurgielewicz:2-ruskie

So this surname exists among Eastern Poles, but is originally of East Slavic origin. Probably a Polonized Ruthenian family.

See also this thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?272797-Types-of-ethnic-Polish-surnames


So Jurgelevich is not Lithuanian either then. That ancestor was in fact born in Lithuania so I was wondering where the origin of the surname was.

[Peterski]

Etymology of Jurgelevich is from Greek name Georgios adopted into (Orthodox?) Slavic cultures (Yuri / Jura / Jurg / Jerzy):

https://genealogia.okiem.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3098&start=1710

"Jurgielewicz - od imienia Jerzy. Greckie imię Georgios, to od georgós ‘rolnik’, przejmowane było przez języki słowiańskie w kilku postaciach. W staropolszczyźnie znane były formy Jerzy, Jura Jurg (za pośrednictwem języka niemieckiego), na Kresach Wschodnich Juryj."

[Sikeliot]

Etymology of Jurgelevich is from Greek name Georgios adopted into Slavic languages (Yuri / Jura / Jurg / Jerzy):

https://genealogia.okiem.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3098&start=1710

"urgielewicz - od imienia Jerzy. Greckie imię Georgios, to od georgós ‘rolnik’, przejmowane było przez języki słowiańskie w kilku postaciach. W staropolszczyźnie znane były formy Jerzy, Jura Jurg (za pośrednictwem języka niemieckiego), na Kresach Wschodnich Juryj."


Interesting.

So this leaves me with what I suspected -- the only actually Lithuanian surname in our family belongs to my grandfather's maternal grandmother.

Still, I am interested to know about how much of eastern Poles' ancestry is originally from Poland versus Polish-identified natives. Do you know the answer?

[Peterski]

So Jurgelevich is not Lithuanian either then.

Well, Medieval Grand Duchy of Lithuania was largely ethnically Belarusian, Lithuanians were the 2nd group.

Then Poles and Jews but they became numerous only later, in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern times.

Poland & Lithuania were a lot like England & Scotland:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?266873-Prof-Robert-Frost-on-the-Polish-Lithuanian-Union


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTrbR4stbhY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKV64izfL78

[Sikeliot]

Well, Medieval Grand Duchy of Lithuania was largely ethnically Belarusian, Lithuanians were the 2nd group.

Then Poles and Jews but they became numerous only later, in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern times.

Poland & Lithuania were a lot like England & Scotland:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?266873-Prof-Robert-Frost-on-the-Polish-Lithuanian-Union


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTrbR4stbhY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKV64izfL78


So some of the ancestors who are Lithuanian Poles may also have Belarusian ancestry?

[Peterski]

So some of the ancestors who are Lithuanian Poles may also have Belarusian ancestry?

Yes, this surname could be from a lineage of Polonized Belarusians.

They could even be Lithuanized first, and Polonized later (for example).

[Sikeliot]

Yes, this surname could be from a lineage of Polonized Belarusians.

They could even be Lithuanized first, and Polonized later (for example).

And Belarusians have Baltic ancestry too so this could trigger a reading of Lithuanian on 23andme, too.

[Peterski]

Is what is coming up "Polish" also including Polish Lithuanians and showing me where they came from in Poland before moving to Lithuania?

Yes it is possible.

Most of Poles who moved to Lithuania were from Mazovia (that's what you got) and Southern Poland (also what you got). Some were also from what is now Kujawsko-Pomorskie. But I think this feature ("Recent Ancestors Feature" which assigns regions) is based on where most of your close matches are from. So all it probably means is that you have matches in these regions of Poland today, and we don't know where did ancestors of your matches live 500 years ago.

Łódzkie (Central Poland) is probably where your Polish-born ancestors are from?


Lithuanian Poles are not really Poles. They are usually descendants of Polonized Lithuanians from the Middle Ages. Polish was a more prestigious language back then and many Lithuanians allowed themselves to be polonized.

They are a mix I would say (a mix of Medieval settlers from Poland and Polonized locals - Belarusians and Lithuanians).

Saying they are "not really Poles" would be like saying that East Germans are not really Germans but Germanized Slavs.


And Belarusians have Baltic ancestry too so this could trigger a reading of Lithuanian on 23andme, too.

Yeah it is a mess. :lol: But you did not score anything in Belarus, right?

[Sikeliot]

Yes it is possible. Most of Poles who moved to Lithuania were from Mazovia (that's what you got) and Southern Poland (also what you got). Some were also from what is now Kujawsko-Pomorskie. But I think this feature ("Recent Ancestors Feature" which assigns regions) is based on where most of your close matches are from. So all it probably means is that you have matches in these regions of Poland today, and we don't know where did ancestors of your matches live 500 years ago.



They are a mix I would say (a mix of Medieval settlers from Poland and Polonized locals - Belarusians and Lithuanians).

Saying they are "not really Poles" would be like saying that East Germans are not really Germans but Germanized Slavs.



Yeah it is a mess. :lol:

The other surname I am stuck on is that we have people whose name is "Cesna" or "Chesna" and I cannot figure out what that might be. Do you know what the original surname might've been, in either Polish, Belarusian or Lithuanian?

[Peterski]

I am wondering if it is picking up actual Lithuanian ancestry, or if it's picking up the Poles from Lithuania.

If I assume correctly that it is based on family matches, then it is picking your matches who can be either Lithuanians, Poles in Lithuania (the ones who still live there) or Lithuanian-identified people descended from Lithuanized Poles. In the Kaunas Region a lot of Poles were Lithuanized in the 1920s-1930s.

That region had around 1/4 ethnic Polish inhabitants ca. 1900, but after 1918 it became part of Lithuania, and Lithuanization policy was very successful there (unlike in more southern regions, where you still have mostly Polish-identified population today, who resist Lithuanization and identify as Poles).

[Sikeliot]

If I assume correctly that it is based on family matches, then it is picking your matches who can be either Lithuanians, Poles in Lithuania (the ones who still live there) or Lithuanian-identified people descended from Lithuanized Poles. In the Kaunas Region a lot of Poles were Lithuanized during the 1920s-1930s (that region was part of Lithuania already before WW2).

The question then comes down to, what should we be saying we are-- Polish, Lithuanian, or both? Clearly there is ethnic Polish ancestry so I do generally call my grandfather Polish, not Lithuanian.

I have only found one "native" Lithuanian surname but clearly I descend from a lot of Polish Lithuanians. How important is Lithuania in the identity of Lithuanian Poles, both at home and abroad when they emigrated?

Also I do not score Belarus at all.

[Sikeliot]

I figured out the origin of the surname I just could not place -- Cesna/Chesna... probably Czesnowski originally.

Apparently this did exist in Lithuanian Poles and was made into Lithuanian as "Česnauskis".

[Peterski]

genetic testing seems to be suggesting my east euro component is more East Slavic, plus some "actual" Polish. Maybe.

While Western Poles are genetically distinct from East Slavs due to Celto-Germanic admixture, Eastern Poles (as well as some other West Slavs - for example some of the Lusatian Sorbs who have remained "pure" and have not mixed with surrounding Germans) can be hard to tell apart from East Slavs, as long as these East Slavs are not mixed with Siberian or Uralic admixture. It is about as hard as telling apart Irish from British (and as you know Ireland was colonized by many British settlers, such as Scotch-Irish and Anglo-Irish), or one type of British from another type of British. Or Central/South Dutch from West German. Etc.

[Sikeliot]

While Western Poles are genetically distinct from East Slavs due to Celto-Germanic admixture, Eastern Poles (as well as some other West Slavs - for example some of the Lusatian Sorbs who have remained "pure" and have not mixed with surrounding Germans) can be hard to tell apart from East Slavs, as long as these East Slavs are not mixed with Siberian or Uralic admixture.

It is about as hard as telling apart Irish from British (and as you know Ireland was colonized by many British settlers), or one type of British from another type of British. Or Dutch from West German.

When you say western and eastern Poles, do you mean within Poland? Or do you mean Poland is western Poles, and the ones in Lithuania and Belarus the eastern?

[Peterski]

When you say western and eastern Poles, do you mean within Poland? Or do you mean Poland is western Poles, and the ones in Lithuania and Belarus the eastern?

In this context I would say Western Poles = to the west of the Vistula River and Eastern Poles = to the east of the Vistula River (more or less).

It would be difficult to tell apart a Pole from Białystok (within Poland today) from a Pole from Ashmyany (within Belarus today) based on DNA.

[Sikeliot]

In this context I would say Western Poles = to the west of the Vistula River and Eastern Poles = to the east of the Vistula River (more or less).

It would be difficult to tell apart a Pole from Białystok (within Poland today) from a Pole from Ashmyany (within Belarus today) based on DNA.

So people in eastern Poland are genetically similar to Lithuanian and Belarusian Poles to begin with?

[Peterski]

So people in eastern Poland are genetically similar to Lithuanian and Belarusian Poles to begin with?

Yeah. Even Mazovia is already Baltic-shifted, but not as much as areas further to the north-east. And this can be a very ancient genetic similarity.

Poles from Suwałki (within Poland) are in fact more similar to Lithuanians, than are Poles from Belarus. At least based on the kit numbers I saw.

=====

So Polish settlers who moved to Lithuania in the Middle Ages, could already be similar to Belarusians and Lithuanians. Even before mixing with them.

[Peterski]

Even after post-1945 border changes, modern Poland still includes some lands that used to be East Slavic or Baltic at some point in history. See this map, borders of Poland in the 12th century vs. today, as you can see modern Poland has some areas in the east that were outside of Poland in the 12th century:

https://i.imgur.com/PctaNpg.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/SGmdkmh.png

Ruś Czerwona (Red Ruthenia) was incorporated to Poland in 1340. Until 1939 it was entirely in Poland, but even now it is partially in Poland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Ruskie_be%C5%82skie_%28II_RP%29.png/535px-Ruskie_be%C5%82skie_%28II_RP%29.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/Ruskie_be%C5%82skie.png/535px-Ruskie_be%C5%82skie.png

[Sikeliot]

Yeah. Even Mazovia is already Baltic-shifted, but not as much as areas further to the north-east. And this can be a very ancient genetic similarity.

Poles from Suwałki (within Poland) are in fact more similar to Lithuanians, than are Poles from Belarus. At least based on the kit numbers I saw.

=====

So Polish settlers who moved to Lithuania in the Middle Ages, could already be similar to Belarusians and Lithuanians. Even before mixing with them.

This is all very interesting.

My next question is, what are ethnic Lithuanian surnames like? By this I mean not transliterated Polish surnames in Lithuanian, but actual Lithuanian surnames?

[Sikeliot]

Even after post-1945 border changes, modern Poland still includes some lands that used to be East Slavic or Baltic at some point in history. See this map, borders of Poland in the 12th century vs. today, as you can see modern Poland has some areas in the east that were outside of Poland in the 12th century:

https://i.imgur.com/PctaNpg.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/SGmdkmh.png

Ruś Czerwona (Red Ruthenia) was incorporated to Poland in 1340. Until 1939 it was entirely in Poland, but even now it is partially in Poland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Ruskie_be%C5%82skie_%28II_RP%29.png/535px-Ruskie_be%C5%82skie_%28II_RP%29.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/Ruskie_be%C5%82skie.png/535px-Ruskie_be%C5%82skie.png


I actually checked the records again and my grandfather's grandfather is listed as somewhere from "Wilno" or "Vilnia" in 1883 in Lithuania and his wife was born in Poland, they met in the US.

So my grandfather's father is half Polish from Poland, half Lithuanian Polish, and my grandfather's mother is half Lithuanian Polish, and half ethnic Lithuanian possibly.