Can American be an ethnicity?

[cyberlorian]

I mean what would you think if someone tells you she is ethnically American?

[Dna8]

Yes, but it will not carry racial connotations the same way 'Greek' or 'Lithuanian' does..

[Bostonia]

Not in my opinion. It's a nationality.

[Benyzero]

Nationality , ethnically only the natives can be lol

[Phenix]

Yes, give it more time, any group can form an ethnicity.

[Ayetooey]

No.

[Marco94]

Technically, not even Native Americans can call themselves "ethnic Americans", as the country didn't exist before Europeans came, and they had their own nations. They can claim to be "ethnic Navajo" or "ethnic Cherokee" instead.

That said, to me an "ethnic American" sounds like someone who can trace its roots to the colonial era, without recent immigration background, like those from the south (idk if they are rednecks or what) that choose "American" on the census to identify themselves. Yet this is my opinion and technically there are not "ethnic Americans".

[Dna8]

Depends on how we construct the definition of 'ethnicity', IMO.

If, by our definition, uniformity in genetical ethnogenesis is requisite, then the answer might be no.

If, by our definition, uniformity in genetical ethnogenesis may function as an accoutrement to ethnicity, but need not strictly inform it, then the answer might be yes.

[Wanderer]

Of course!

[Not a Cop]

It already is.

[Damião de Góis]

I think so, considering they have been a country since 1776. That's older than some european countries.

[Tooting Carmen]

I think so, considering they have been a country since 1776. That's older than some european countries.

+1. Having said that, how many Americans (whether White or Black) can trace their ancestors to the US during its early years?

[Phenix]

+1. Having said that, how many Americans (whether White or Black) can trace their ancestors to the US during its early years?

Almost everyone because of marriages with older colonial stock.

[Tooting Carmen]

Almost everyone because of marriages with older colonial stock.

Oh really? Factor in all the descendants of Irish (who were immigrants distinct from the original British colonists), French, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, Italians, Greeks, Jews, Poles, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Asian Indians, Mexicans, Central Americans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Colombians, Venezuelans etc. that there are in the US, and I doubt that is the case at all. In fact, African-Americans are longer-standing than most White Americans are.

[Dragoon]

Three takes on this:

a)No because its too many races, and ancestries, multiculti, etc

b)Yes, you could argue the Americans who have lived for a long time, have created their own ethnicity (like on the census give options for it) **

c)You could argue all or most Americans loosely make a ethnicity but this would be a weaker argument.


** When we remember that many European ethnicitiess started from different tribes, groups, and the such, you could argue the same for Americans.
These Americans would be like a proto or beginning of an ethnos.

[Marco94]

Almost everyone because of marriages with older colonial stock.

I really doubt it. There are lots of exclusively recent immigration background, from Hispanics to Asians, Italian-Americans, Jews, etc.

For instance, 17% of the population is Hispanic, and 6% Asian. Among whites there are loads of unmixed (with colonial) individuals.

[Phenix]

I really doubt it. There are lots of exclusively recent immigration background, from Hispanics to Asians, Italian-Americans, Jews, etc.

For instance, 17% of the population is Hispanic, and 6% Asian. Among whites there are loads of unmixed (with colonial) individuals.

Economic integration of recent European immigrant waves is an indication of inter-cultural marriages, most Levantine Americans are also mixed with European Americans, let alone Irish and Italians. Blacks are all mixed, with generally 25% Euro genes from British Isles mostly.
For late waves of Hispanics your point is valid I must say, because of cultural reclusion and closeness to Mexico as most of them are Mexicans. Asians can inter-mix greatly depending on ethnicity, Japanese are more open to race-mix than Chinese, but as I wrote earlier, let time do its job.

[Phenix]

Oh really? Factor in all the descendants of Irish (who were immigrants distinct from the original British colonists), French, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, Italians, Greeks, Jews, Poles, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Asian Indians, Mexicans, Central Americans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Colombians, Venezuelans etc. that there are in the US, and I doubt that is the case at all. In fact, African-Americans are longer-standing than most White Americans are.

A man has 1024 ancestors prior to 10 generation or 250 years (as you like) if no incest happened, one million if you count back to 20 generation.
Most Americans don't have a direct link to colonialists of 17th century, of course, but they can find some secondary affiliations here and there.

[Tooting Carmen]

A man has 1024 ancestors prior to 10 generation or 250 years (as you like) if no incest happened, one million if you count back to 20 generation.
Most Americans don't have a direct link to colonialists of 17th century, of course, but they can find some secondary affiliations here and there.

African-Americans (especially those with substantial White-colonial admixture) are probably the closest thing to an 'American' ethnicity.

[KMack]

Oh really? Factor in all the descendants of Irish (who were immigrants distinct from the original British colonists), French, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, Italians, Greeks, Jews, Poles, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Asian Indians, Mexicans, Central Americans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Colombians, Venezuelans etc. that there are in the US, and I doubt that is the case at all. In fact, African-Americans are longer-standing than most White Americans are.

Turns out, they’re pretty darn good. Although there were only about 130 passengers on the Mayflower, and the number of individuals who left descendants is significantly less, it is estimated that more than 35 million individuals living today are direct descendants of those individuals. https://familyhistorydaily.com/genealogy-help-and-how-to/are-you-one-of-35-million-mayflower-descendants-heres-how-to-find-out/

From the original Mayflower voyage to the USA. BTW lots of Black have this ancestry also.

[Teutone]

No, name me one ethnicity that contains caucasoids, negroids, mongolids etc combined

[KMack]

No, name me one ethnicity that contains caucasoids, negroids, mongolids etc combined

Lots of countries.

[Not a Cop]

No, name me one ethnicity that contains caucasoids, negroids, mongolids etc combined

Basicly any country in Central/Southern Americas/Carribean.

[Phenix]

No, name me one ethnicity that contains caucasoids, negroids, mongolids etc combined

Thousands of ethnicities in: Americas, India, Central Asia, Sahara, Sahel, Horn of Africa, Oceania, Austral Africa, and some in Europe.

[Phenix]

African-Americans (especially those with substantial White-colonial admixture) are probably the closest thing to an 'American' ethnicity.

Yes, no doubt about that.


Turns out, they’re pretty darn good. Although there were only about 130 passengers on the Mayflower, and the number of individuals who left descendants is significantly less, it is estimated that more than 35 million individuals living today are direct descendants of those individuals. https://familyhistorydaily.com/genealogy-help-and-how-to/are-you-one-of-35-million-mayflower-descendants-heres-how-to-find-out/

From the original Mayflower voyage to the USA. BTW lots of Black have this ancestry also.

This confirms what I thought.

[nittionia]

I prefer to be ethnic American than ethnic European.

[Peterski]

No, name me one ethnicity that contains caucasoids, negroids, mongolids etc combined

The Malagasy are a mix of Asians with Africans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_people


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm8h2fyOoxU

[Teutone]

They are no ethnicities, a white and a black Brazilian only share their nationality, that's it.

Same with any other colonized MULTIETHNIC country. Including the USA

[KMack]

They are no ethnicities, a white and a black Brazilian only share their nationality, that's it.

Same with any other colonized MULTIETHNIC country. Including the USA

Ethnicity is a shared nationality/language/culture/ etc. It isn't racial.

[Phenix]

They are no ethnicities, a white and a black Brazilian only share their nationality, that's it.

Same with any other colonized MULTIETHNIC country. Including the USA

No one other than the involved persons can chose what's an ethnicity and what's not, a Nordid or a Sudanid Maghrebi for example will always relate more than to similar looking foreign people.

[Teutone]

Ethnicity is a shared nationality/language/culture/ etc. It isn't racial.

It is all of it PLUS ancestry

[Dna8]

It is all of it PLUS ancestry

how meaningful would 'ancestry' be without language/culture/etc constituting part of its meaning?

[Jägerstaffel]

Americans were becoming an ethnicity.

[Teutone]

how meaningful would 'ancestry' be without language/culture/etc constituting part of its meaning?

Are you aware what plus means?

[Morticia]

Yes.
Average white Americans actually carry very similar ancestry to one another. Most would be considered "Celto-Germanics" or something similar to. We also share a culture.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes. I consider White Americans to be "the American ethnicity". With a difference between North and South.

[Dna8]

Americans were becoming an ethnicity.

They still are.. the trajectory of the "becoming" has just been slightly amended by groups relevant to US immigration in the past few decades..

[Jägerstaffel]

They still are.. the trajectory of the becoming has just been slightly amended by groups relevant to US immigration of the past few decades..

I think we'll fragment and perhaps Balkanize.

[rein]

Yes. I consider White Americans to be "the American ethnicity". With a difference between North and South.

Is there a difference in how Northerners and Southerners look?

[Morticia]

Is there a difference in how Northerners and Southerners look?

Higher Celtic fringe down south

[Dna8]

Are you aware what plus means?

I'll take a different tack: how meaningful would the concept of ancestry be if it were a purely genetical notion?

[Teutone]

They still are.. the trajectory of the "becoming" has just been slightly amended by groups relevant to US immigration in the past few decades..

The 2nd biggest factual ethnic group are Latin Americans in the usa, got their own folklore, language, history and ancestry and have 0 interest in assimilating.

Even within the white American ethnicities there are differences don't let me start with Niggers.

[Teutone]

I'll take a different tack: how meaningful would the concept of ancestry be if it were a purely genetical notion?

I don't claim it's genetically only, it's just a important part.

[Dragoon]

Ethnicity is a shared nationality/language/culture/ etc. It isn't racial.

Good point. It depends if someone is taking race into account.


It is all of it PLUS ancestry

In dictionaries: ancestry and language are common under ethnicity but race is often excluded.

Example: Is the product of a Dutch person and East Asian, a Dutch person?

[Dna8]

I think we'll fragment and perhaps Balkanize.

I doubt it. The US metaculture will abide.. it will just be different in form than what 1950s Americans perhaps imagined..

[Dna8]

I don't claim it's genetically only, it's just a important part.

See, my contention is that it's not that important..

[KMack]

The 2nd biggest factual ethnic group are Latin Americans in the usa, got their own folklore, language, history and ancestry and have 0 interest in assimilating.

Even within the white American ethnicities there are differences don't let me start with Niggers.

Latins/Hispanics are not 1 group. Cubans are totally different than Hondurans/Salvadorians and Mexicans are often different than them. Illegals are certainly not "Americans". Generally speaking if you are raised here you will be Americanized.

[Jägerstaffel]

The 2nd biggest factual ethnic group are Latin Americans in the usa, got their own folklore, language, history and ancestry and have 0 interest in assimilating.

Even within the white American ethnicities there are differences don't let me start with Niggers.

It is even possible that some White Americans may start to assimilate in some manner to our conquerors. Lots of people can remember how widespread the phenomenon of the "wigger" was but that seems to have largely died out.

Americans nowadays are deeply divided over all manner of things. I don't see us all eventually coalescing into a unified ethnicity. I think we in the past we were much closer to this and were growing ever closer to coalescing into a unified ethnic group (with some regional variance) but that has been forever altered.

[The Lawspeaker]

Is there a difference in how Northerners and Southerners look?

There seems to be more Scots-Irish ancestry down South, more German, Irish and English up north.

[Teutone]

Good point. It depends if someone is taking race into account.



In dictionaries: ancestry and language are common under ethnicity but race is often excluded.

Example: Is the product of a Dutch person and East Asian, a Dutch person?

No its not a Dutch person and the racial components get erased from the definitions for obvious reasons.

[Teutone]

Latins/Hispanics are not 1 group. Cubans are totally different than Hondurans/Salvadorians and Mexicans are often different than them. Illegals are certainly not "Americans". Generally speaking if you are raised here you will be Americanized.

They more of a common group than they are Americans

[Jägerstaffel]

I doubt it. The US metaculture will abide.. it will just be different in form than what 1950s Americans perhaps imagined..

I doubt it. We seem to be learning to hate each other and the gulf between groups seems to be ever-widening.

[Teutone]

I doubt it. We seem to be learning to hate each other and the gulf between groups seems to be ever-widening.

Multi cultural and mutli-ethnic experiments are doomed to fail, and it's good that they fail.

[Tooting Carmen]

They more of a common group than they are Americans

No way. Dominicans, Guatemalans and Argentinians more alike than Americans are to each other? Lololol.

[Dna8]

We seem to be learning to hate each other and the gulf between groups seems to be ever-widening.

If one goes by some TA members from the US..

I'd say that in the majority is an inclination towards accommodating contemporary flows of immigration, and an inclination towards embracing the direction America/Americans are headed..

[The Lawspeaker]

No its not a Dutch person and the racial components get erased from the definitions for obvious reasons.

He would be considered here as Eurasian but part of the Dutch people - but not per se of the Dutch etnos. Whereas (s)he has a Dutch passport by birth (with all corresponding rights and duties), the official statistics count him/her as a niet-westerse allochtoon. This has led to some fucked up situations in which third generation Indo-Dutch are still counted in the statistics as nw-allochtoon while they have been completely and utterly "whitewashed" (if you may) while the Dutch Labour Party has tried to rename third generation Morrocans as "autochtoon" .

[Teutone]

No way. Dominicans, Guatemalans and Argentinians more alike than Americans are to each other? Lololol.

No you retard the Latin immigrants have more in common with each other than with the other ethnicities in america

[Jägerstaffel]

If one goes by some TA members from the US..

I'd say that in the majority is an inclination towards accommodating contemporary flows of immigration, and an inclination towards embracing the direction America/Americans are headed..

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see it this way.

[Dna8]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see it this way.

Fair enough

[Teutone]

He would be considered here as Eurasian but part of the Dutch people - but not per se of the Dutch etnos.

If you are half any other race and half german, Everyone will ask this person where he is really from.

Jerome Boateng is not a ethnic German for us, he is just a national, and nothing he can do about it.

[The Lawspeaker]

If you are half any other race and half german, Everyone will ask this person where he is really from.

Jerome Boateng is not a ethnic German for us, he is just a national, and nothing he can do about it.

For the people themselves (and we're not talking statistics here), an Indo-Dutch is considered Dutch - but a half Moroccan or a Turk or a half-negro is considered, pretty much, a foreigner. There is an incredible disconnect in how the people perceive it and how the official statistics perceive it.

[Teutone]

For the people themselves (and we're not talking statistics here), an Indo-Dutch is considered Dutch - but a half Moroccan or a Turk or a half-negro is considered, pretty much, a foreigner.

Every not fully white French, Dutch or British is just a passport national, not equal to the ethnic people.

[Tooting Carmen]

No you retard the Latin immigrants have more in common with each other than with the other ethnicities in america

Shh. Don't tell alnortedelsur that. xD

[Teutone]

Shh. Don't tell alnortedelsur that. xD

He will agree that a Mexican is closer to him than a afro-american, it's pure logic.

[rein]

He will agree that a Mexican is closer to him than a afro-american, it's pure logic.

Let’s ask him that. Where is he?

[Ayetooey]

If you are half any other race and half german, Everyone will ask this person where he is really from.

Jerome Boateng is not a ethnic German for us, he is just a national, and nothing he can do about it.

What about someone half German half other European, like half German half Russian.

[Tooting Carmen]

He will agree that a Mexican is closer to him than a afro-american, it's pure logic.

I'm not sure if he identifies more with Mestizo Mexicans than with White Americans though, that's the point.

[The Lawspeaker]

Every not fully white French, Dutch or British is just a passport national, not equal to the ethnic people.

Let's be honest: the Germans never had a real colonial empire (minus those few scraps of land here and there) and there was never a population that mixed extensively with the local population (such as the Indo-Dutch and most of those would have entrepreneurs, the army or colonial service), after they came home - they pretty much evaporated into the Dutch population. Calling someone Indo-Dutch has become a bit of a statistical thing. You're talking third generation here whose mixed daughter married a Dutchman whose daughters and sons married Dutch.

Combined with the fact that there was a bit more of an affinity for the Indies culture.. things went quite quick or them. I can't say the same about Muslims or blacks here. I have had it, at times, that I had a teacher who once let out that her grandfather was born somewhere in the Indies. You couldn't see it at all but they are still counted as "foreign".

[Teutone]

I'm not sure if he identifies more with Mestizo Mexicans than with White Americans though, that's the point.

He's a special case, we can factually look at Latin Americans in the US and their unwillingness to assimilate, well they rather dominate with their own culture.

[Teutone]

What about someone half German half other European, like half German half Russian.

Different story but mostly would be judged by paternal side cause of the name.

[Ford]

Interesting question. My outside opinion/observation is that Americans are not a separate ethnicity but that America consists of separate communities that could be considered as separate ones. I think the Appalachians, the states further south and Texas (just to name a few) have a strong separate identity and culture. Appalachians are mainly Scotch-Irish, further south there's a lot of French influence and Texans have German and Dutch. I would say that they all differ from each other culturally enough to be considered as separate groups, but do they form new ethnicities or not or are they simply sub-groups of their European ancestors?

Then again, most Americans from what I know still identify strongly as American, even though they have some diverging cultural aspects. But this could simply be linked to patriotism and not ethnic nationalism?

[Tooting Carmen]

He's a special case, we can factually look at Latin Americans in the US and their unwillingness to assimilate, well they rather dominate with their own culture.

Up to a point I think that's true. Moreover, by some distance the least assimilated of all are the (mostly White) Cubans in South Florida, so to a large extent it hasn't got much to do with race either.

[The Lawspeaker]

So, personally I would do away with the statistical nomer Indo-Dutch in around 10, 20 years because then we can sure that the first and second generations are all dead and buried. Remains ? Ambonese and some actual Indonesians.

[Teutone]

Up to a point I think that's true. Moreover, by some distance the least assimilated of all the (mostly White) Cubans in South Florida, so to a large extent it hasn't got much to do with race either.

But with ethnicity and the conclusion that American is a national term not a ethnic term and the American nationals will never be united as one ethnicity unless they all mix with each other and end up like the Southpark future immigrants episode.

[Ford]

Another thing, if white Afrikaners are considered a separate group from the Dutch, descending from Dutch settlers, I don't see why a settler from any other group in the US shouldn't be.

[Phenix]

Well, that escalated quickly.


Americans were becoming an ethnicity.

That's what I answered, time creates ethnic groups and dissolves them.

[Dna8]

time creates ethnic groups and dissolves them.

well expressed

[Westbrook]

Who are the "natives"?
Nationality , ethnically only the natives can be lol

[rein]

Who are the "natives"?

Native Americans I guess.

[Daco Celtic]

If America had an ethnicity these days, I believe it would Euro Mutt, especially in more urbanized areas. A place like Chicago would have a lot of people of mixed European heritage, like a half Irish, half Polish person. It's very common in the upper Midwest as well as the east and west coast. When you get into the rural Midwest you get a more purely German population or a large Scots-Irish population in the rural South, so some of this comes down to a rural-urban divide.

[Teutone]

Who are the "natives"?

In the case of an African American a african ethnicity in a white American like Gründung the German ethnicity in a Asian American maybe the Han-ethnicity.

The term American just like Austria is a term describing a nationality, not a ethnicity.

[Dna8]

In the case of an African American a african ethnicity in a white American like Gründung the German ethnicity in a Asian American maybe the Han-ethnicity.

The term American just like Austria is a term describing a nationality, not a ethnicity.

Would you say that, given a conducive passage of time, what was once strictly a nationality can evolve into an ethnicity or something tantamount to an ethnicity?

[Smeagol]

Yes. It means native born white American. Foreigners opinions on this are irrelevant.

[Teutone]

Would you say that, given a conducive passage of time, what was once strictly a nationality can evolve into an ethnicity or something tantamount to an ethnicity?

Maybe but I don't see this happening and no example comes to my mind.

It's probably a process taking several thousand years.

[Teutone]

Yes. It means native born white American. Foreigners opinions on this are irrelevant.

Why would a black American not be a ethnic American then?

What about Gründung who sees himself ethnic German and a American national?

[Smeagol]

African-Americans (especially those with substantial White-colonial admixture) are probably the closest thing to an 'American' ethnicity.


Haha, no.

[Smeagol]

Why would a black American not be a ethnic American then?

What about Gründung who sees himself ethnic German and a American national?

Because blacks were never seen as real Americans for the majority of our history. Attitudes only started changing as the country entered a period of decline. They didn't even get citizenship until after the Civil War and even then were second class citizens until around 1965.

Is his loyalty towards Germany or America? Who would he support if there were a war between the two countries?

[Jägerstaffel]

Would you say that, given a conducive passage of time, what was once strictly a nationality can evolve into an ethnicity or something tantamount to an ethnicity?

I think so, yes. Ann Coulter makes an interesting point about this in her book Adios America:

"Even as late as 1990 — a quarter century into Teddy Kennedy’s scheme to remake the nation — half of the American population traced its roots to the black and white populace of 1790... Nearly the entire white population of America from 1600 to 1970 came from a geographic area of the world about twice the size of Texas. The entire black population came from an area of West Africa about the size of Florida."

It's easy to imagine how these groups were on the path to becoming distinct ethnic groups. Time and separation from other groups would lead to no other outcome.

[Westbrook]

Who are they?
Native Americans I guess.

[Teutone]

Because blacks were never seen as real Americans for the majority of our history. Attitudes only started changing as the country entered a period of decline. They didn't even get citizenship until after the Civil War and even then were second class citizens until around 1965.

Is his loyalty towards Germany or America? Who would he support if there were a war between the two countries?

what does a national identity has to do with it? in Ukraine ethnic slavs fight with eachother, I am a ethnic German and don't give a shit about my nation but care about my ethnicity.

[Dna8]

I think so, yes. Ann Coulter makes an interesting point about this in her book Adios America:

"Even as late as 1990 — a quarter century into Teddy Kennedy’s scheme to remake the nation — half of the American population traced its roots to the black and white populace of 1790... Nearly the entire white population of America from 1600 to 1970 came from a geographic area of the world about twice the size of Texas. The entire black population came from an area of West Africa about the size of Florida."

It's easy to imagine how these groups were on the path to becoming distinct ethnic groups. Time and separation from other groups would lead to no other outcome.

Fair enough

[Smeagol]

what does a national identity has to do with it? in Ukraine ethnic slavs fight with eachother, I am a ethnic German and don't give a shit about my nation but care about my ethnicity.

Because a real American puts America above every other nation. If someone comes here but then still views themselves as German or Irish or whatever, then they can't be considered real Americans. Their descendants will usually be assimilated into the general population though and will have little connection with the countries their ancestors had left.

Also there are many Jews here who put Israel's interests above America's and many even have dual Israeli citizenship and have served in the Israeli army. Are they Americans? No, they're traitors.

[Dna8]

Maybe but I don't see this happening and no example comes to my mind.

It's probably a process taking several thousand years.

You detect no examples from the colonization of the New World, for instance?

[nittionia]

No one other than the involved persons can chose what's an ethnicity and what's not, a Nordid or a Sudanid Maghrebi for example will always relate more than to similar looking foreign people.

I feel closer to Americans of any background before a foreign raised person

[Phenix]

I feel closer to Americans of any background before a foreign raised person

You prove my point.

[Tooting Carmen]

You detect no examples from the colonization of the New World, for instance?

They are civic nations, not ethnic ones. In fact, my Colombian mother had a very weak concept of race/ethnicity before she moved to the US as a teenage girl (she lived in Pittsburgh between the ages of 11 and 13). As far as she was concerned, a Colombian is a Colombian is a Colombian. Having gone to a school in Bogota with students who had a vast range of colours and phenotypes, she was really surprised by how big a deal the White/Black divide was in the US.

[Westbrook]

Was ist mit gemischten Deutschen in der Neuen Welt? When I travel there or talk to German young people online in the past, they mostly dislike us and feel no connection. A foreigner who lives in DEU they feel is more German than someone like me.
what does a national identity has to do with it? in Ukraine ethnic slavs fight with eachother, I am a ethnic German and don't give a shit about my nation but care about my ethnicity.

[Dna8]

They are civic nations, not ethnic ones. In fact, my Colombian mother had a very weak concept of race/ethnicity before she moved to the US as a teenage girl (she lived in Pittsburgh between the ages of 11 and 13). As far as she was concerned, a Colombian is a Colombian is a Colombian. Having gone to a school in Bogota with students who had a vast range of colours and phenotypes, she was really surprised by how big a deal the White/Black divide was in the US.

Fair enough

How 'bout Cuba and Cubans, in your opinion?

[The Lawspeaker]

what does a national identity has to do with it? in Ukraine ethnic slavs fight with eachother, I am a ethnic German and don't give a shit about my nation but care about my ethnicity.

Make Germany great again but without much of Poland (except Schlesien, Pommern and Preussen), Italy, Slovenia (except German-speaking areas), Switzerland, France (keep the Elsaß-Lothringen), Wallonia and without the Czech Lands (minus the Sudetenland). But include Flanders.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Mitteleuropa_zur_Zeit_der_Staufer.svg

[Tooting Carmen]

Fair enough

How 'bout Cuba and Cubans, in your opinion?

They're a civic nation too, although the range of ethnic groups is rather more limited than even in Colombia (basically just Spaniards and New World Blacks).

[Dna8]

They're a civic nation too, although the range of ethnic groups is rather more limited than even in Colombia (basically just Spaniards and New World Blacks).

How would you define a "Civic Nation"?

[Tooting Carmen]

How would you define a "Civic Nation"?

One united by law, politics and customs (not even necessarily a common language - look at India), but with a range of ethnic groups.

[Phenix]

In the case of an African American a african ethnicity in a white American like Gründung the German ethnicity in a Asian American maybe the Han-ethnicity.

The term American just like Austria is a term describing a nationality, not a ethnicity.

Any subcategory of German ethnicity could split off and become a distinct one, many Austrians and Swiss (mostly Alemannics) refer to themselves as ethnic groups, the contrary can also be applied, to see a conglomeration of Germanic ethnicities unite into one single unit.

Nativus define the ethos and vice-versa, I stick to the definition of Ernest Renan, a collective identity of people sharing a past and making a future.

[Dna8]

One united by law, politics and customs (not even necessarily a common language - look at India), but with a range of ethnic groups.

Thanks.

The problem as I see it, as concerns your line of thinking, is determining how exactly genetics (I'm assuming this is fundamental to your interpretation of ethnicity) are to be evaluated for their adherence or lack thereof, to a particular ethnos..

Do we privilege Y-DNA or MtDNA, this haplogroup or that, one admixture or another, combination xyz or combination qrs, etc?

[Teutone]

Because a real American puts America above every other nation. If someone comes here but then still views themselves as German or Irish or whatever, then they can't be considered real Americans. Their descendants will usually be assimilated into the general population though and will have little connection with the countries their ancestors had left.

Also there are many Jews here who put Israel's interests above America's and many even have dual Israeli citizenship and have served in the Israeli army. Are they Americans? No, they're traitors.

Then you contradict yourself in regards to American citizens of African or Latin backround.

[kleenex]

Yes, but it will not carry racial connotations the same way 'Greek' or 'Lithuanian' does..

I"m an American of Greek descent whose family has been here since the late 1800's. Most of my family has intermixed with other Euro Americans; Irish, Scots, Germans, Poles, etc. I'm of Greek descent meaning both of my parents were born in the US but their parents immigrated from Greece as teens. Greek Americans are phenotypically/culturally different than Greeks from Greece. We may have similar genes but we tend to look/behave diffferently. We have blended in with other Euro Americans (particularly those whose ancestors arrived here in the early 20th/late 19th century) and thus are marginally like our ethnic Greek counterparts in the "old world."

[Teutone]

Was ist mit gemischten Deutschen in der Neuen Welt? When I travel there or talk to German young people online in the past, they mostly dislike us and feel no connection. A foreigner who lives in DEU they feel is more German than someone like me.

The German ethnic identity gets oppressed in the USA as much as in Europe, pre WW1 and 2 this looked totally different.
Also German is just one mayority ethnic country, here our ties with Austrians get closer and closer in a united identity.

[Smeagol]

Then you contradict yourself in regards to American citizens of African or Latin backround.

It's different because they were weren't viewed as being assimilable into the American Nation by the Founding Fathers and thus not given citizenship. I agree with that view, blood also matters.

[Peterski]

They are no ethnicities, a white and a black Brazilian only share their nationality, that's it.

If they intermarry, they create Mulattos who are very genetically similar to each other (in a PCA Mulattos will cluster with other Mulattos).

Most Brazilians are already mixed like that (there are relatively few that are either 100% white European or 100% Sub-Saharan African).

Mixing between groups inevitably reduces genetic diversity, a mixed population becomes homogeneous and cluster together in a PCA.

[Wanderer]

I think so, yes. Ann Coulter makes an interesting point about this in her book Adios America:

"Even as late as 1990 — a quarter century into Teddy Kennedy’s scheme to remake the nation — half of the American population traced its roots to the black and white populace of 1790... Nearly the entire white population of America from 1600 to 1970 came from a geographic area of the world about twice the size of Texas. The entire black population came from an area of West Africa about the size of Florida."

It's easy to imagine how these groups were on the path to becoming distinct ethnic groups. Time and separation from other groups would lead to no other outcome.

What "interesting point" is that? Even if the quoted statement is factual, it does not seem a coherent point about the nature of the American identity is being put forward.

[Teutone]

Any subcategory of German ethnicity could split off and become a distinct one, many Austrians and Swiss (mostly Alemannics) refer to themselves as ethnic groups, the contrary can also be applied, to see a conglomeration of Germanic ethnicities unite into one single unit.

Nativus define the ethos and vice-versa, I stick to the definition of Ernest Renan, a collective identity of people sharing a past and making a future.

They don't have a different ethnicity but nationality, the fucking Austrian vice chancellor lately called himself German and is part of a Pan-German group.

The artifical New identity politics after ww2 looses its ground again.

[Teutone]

It's different because they were weren't viewed as being assimilable into the American Nation by the Founding Fathers and thus not given citizenship. I agree with that view, blood also matters.

By your defining only blood matters cause you exclude non whites.

[Peterski]

One united by law, politics and customs (not even necessarily a common language - look at India), but with a range of ethnic groups.

If ethnic groups intermarry they inevitably become genetically homogeneous. For instance Asian and African ancestors of the Malagasy were very different from each other, but modern Malagasy are a homogeneous group (every 2 Malagasy individuals are similar to each other genetically; they also all look the same).

Indians maintained diversity due to their strict caste system which prevented intermarriages.

[Dna8]

I"m an American of Greek descent whose family has been here since the late 1800's. Most of my family has intermixed with other Euro Americans; Irish, Scots, Germans, Poles, etc. I'm of Greek descent meaning both of my parents were born in the US but their parents immigrated from Greece as teens. Greek Americans are phenotypically/culturally different than Greeks from Greece. We may have similar genes but we tend to look/behave diffferently. We have blended in with other Euro Americans (particularly those whose ancestors arrived here in the early 20th/late 19th century) and thus are marginally like our ethnic Greek counterparts in the "old world."

fair point

[Teutone]

If ethnic groups intermarry they inevitably become genetically homogeneous. For instance Asian and African ancestors of the Malagasy were very different from each other, but modern Malagasy are a homogeneous group (every 2 Malagasy individuals are similar to each other genetically).

This is not a reality whether in the US nor in Brazil right now, I said before if they already mix to a extend it will be the case.

[Smeagol]

By your defining only blood matters cause you exclude non whites.

But I like said, I would also exclude a white immigrant who came here but put his old country first.

[Teutone]

But I like said, I would also exclude a white immigrant who came here but put his old country first.

But a ethnicity has nothing to do with a country, Kurds are a huge ethnicity without no country.

You put nationality in the same category as ethnicity.


Sorbo are a Slavic German group, they are proud German nationals and fight for our country still ethnicially they are slavs which is completely fine.

[Peterski]

Any subcategory of German ethnicity could split off and become a distinct one, many Austrians and Swiss (mostly Alemannics) refer to themselves as ethnic groups, the contrary can also be applied, to see a conglomeration of Germanic ethnicities unite into one single unit.

Nativus define the ethos and vice-versa, I stick to the definition of Ernest Renan, a collective identity of people sharing a past and making a future.

I would like Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians and Latvians to unite into one single ethnicity.

[Teutone]

I would like Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians and Latvians to unite into one single ethnicity.

Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusian are slavs so united under one ethnicity.

[Peterski]

Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusian are slavs so united under one ethnicity.

In such case will you support Polish annexation of Ukraine and Belarus? A united political ethnicity should be formed too.

[Smeagol]

But a ethnicity has nothing to do with a country, Kurs are a huge ethnicity without no country.

You put nationality in the same category as ethnicity.


Sorbo are a Slavic German group, they are proud German nationals and fight for our country still ethnicially they are slaves which is completely fine.

Well ideally all ethnic Germans, Kurds and such should be part of the same country. In my view ethnicity and nation should be synonyms, at the very least in my own country. And foreigners should be deported or stripped of citizenship.

[Teutone]

In such case will you support Polish annexation of Ukraine and Belarus?

No cause again national states and identities are a different thing than ethnicities.

[Dna8]

Well ideally all ethnic Germans, Kurds and such should be part of the same country. In my view ethnicity and nation should be synonyms, at the very least in my own country. And foreigners should be deported or stripped of citizenship.

What exactly makes for an "ethnic German"?

[Teutone]

Well ideally all ethnic Germans, Kurds and such should be part of the same country. In my view ethnicity and nation should be synonyms, at the very least in my own country. And foreigners should be deported or stripped of citizenship.

In that case you would have no white Americans lol

Just like your race you cannot choose your identity, Trump is a ethnic German American.

[Peterski]

What exactly makes for an "ethnic German"?

Germans were invented in 1871, before that there were just a bunch of different groups who spoke somehow related West Germanic dialects.

[kleenex]

Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusian are slavs so united under one ethnicity.

In the US (which as the benchmark nation for ethnic assimilation) Slavs (out of all Euros) had the most difficult time assimilating. Not sure why but I'm guessing that they tended to congregate more than Greeks (for instance) and like Italians lived in ethnocentric communities (like Chicago). This tendency led to perpetual discrimination and rejection.

[Dna8]

Germans were invented in 1871, before that there were just a bunch of different groups who spoke related West Germanic dialects.

I agree. Thus my question to our colleague..

[Dna8]

In the US (which as the benchmark nation for ethnic assimilation) Slavs (out of all Euros) had the most difficult time assimilating. Not sure why but I'm guessing that they tended to congregate more than Greeks (for instance) and like Italians lived in ethnocentric communities (like Chicago). This tendency led to perpetual discrimination and rejection.

Can you speak Greek?

Cheers

[Teutone]

Germans were invented in 1871.

again to retarded to realize the difference of a national state and a country lol

Napoleon called us Germans before 1871 referring to our ethnicity.

Kurds in your logic don't exist as ethnicity, they got no nation.

[Smeagol]

In that case you would have no white Americans lol

Just like your race you cannot choose your identity, Trump is a ethnic German American.

Trump recognizes his German roots (he also has Scottish ones) but I doubt he'd refer to his identity as German or that Germans would consider him one of them. He puts America first. Native born whites are never foreigners here and most of us consider our only identity to be American.

[Teutone]

In the US (which as the benchmark nation for ethnic assimilation) Slavs (out of all Euros) had the most difficult time assimilating. Not sure why but I'm guessing that they tended to congregate more than Greeks (for instance) and like Italians lived in ethnocentric communities (like Chicago). This tendency led to perpetual discrimination and rejection.

That's not bad, I am against assimilation.

[Peterski]

Teutone, even this map shows that you are not of the same "genetic ethnicity" as people from Baden-Württemberg:

https://i.imgur.com/Q5OnVj7.jpg

^^^
Based on that, you are as closely genetically related to Baden-Württemberg as you are to Eastern Poles from Podkarpacie.

[Teutone]

Trump recognizes his German roots (he also has Scottish ones) but I doubt he'd refer to his identity as German or that Germans would consider him one of them. He puts America first. Native born whites are never foreigners here and most of us consider our only identity to be American.

He refers to him as ethnic German for sure, which would have nothing to do with his obligation towards the United states.

[Smeagol]

What exactly makes for an "ethnic German"?

Ask a German, this question isn't really my concern.

[Teutone]

Teutone, even this map shows that you are not of the same "genetic ethnicity" as people from Baden-Württemberg:

https://i.imgur.com/Q5OnVj7.jpg

You plot equally in every Slavic country? Fucking obsessed retard use your brain.

[Dna8]

Ask a German, this question isn't really my concern.

Ok

[Peterski]

You plot equally in every Slavic country?

Pretty much yes, except for Balkan Slavs. Even for Slovenia (Alpine Slavs) I get over 80% similarity.

Pan-Slavism has a genetic basis bro, while Pan-Germanism does not.

[Teutone]

Pretty much yes, except for Balkan Slavs. Even for Slovenia (Alpine Slavs) I get over 85% genetic similarity.

Pan-Slavism has a genetic basis bro, while Pan-Germanism does not.

Don't call me bro you psychopath, ethnic Germans are mayority Germanic with German culture,language and history in Germanic tribes.

[Smeagol]

He refers to him as ethnic German for sure, which would have nothing to do with his obligation towards the United states.

Well he's called himself a proud German-American, that's true. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here overall though.

[Peterski]

and history in Germanic tribes.

You are descended from East Francia after 843 AD. Read what Charlemagne did to Saxons - he exterminated them and replaced with Frankish settlers.

You are basically Eastern French people, not original Germanic tribes.

[Teutone]

You are descended from East Francia after 843 AD. Read what Charlemagne did to Saxons - he exterminated them and replaced with Frankish settlers.

You are basically Eastern French people, not original Germanic tribes.

If you have autism like bosniensis and Peterski and make up your pseudo history mindest, yes.

[Peterski]

We have ancient DNA of Baiuvarii and Alemanni from what is today Bavaria and Swabia:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#7/48.089/12.217

And guess what? They don't cluster with modern Germans! Not even with North Germans.

They cluster with modern Danes from Jutland and West Frisians (from the Netherlands).

Why is this the case?

Because Charlemagne exterminated them and replaced with new settlers from East Francia.

[Teutone]

We have ancient DNA of Baiuvarii and Alemanni from what is today South Germany.

And guess what? They don't cluster with modern Germans! Not even North Germans.

They cluster with modern Danes from Jutland and West Frisians (from the Netherlands).

Why is this the case?

Because Charlemagne exterminated them and replaced with new settlers from East Francia.

Franks were a Germanic tribe lol

[Peterski]

Franks were a Germanic tribe lol

But Franks exterminated other Germanic tribes without mercy. They were traitors to Germania who adopted Latin language and Gallic customs!

Holy Roman Empire! Traitors!

[Peterski]

Franks did not even publish ANYTHING in any Germanic language. All of their documents, texts, etc. are in Latin!

This is why the oldest written Germanic language is Old English, not Frankish.

Anglo-Saxon literature is the oldest Germanic literature, back when Franks were ashamed of their own language.

[Teutone]

But exterminated other Germanic tribes without mercy. They were traitors to the Germanic race who adopted Latin language and Gallic customs!

Tribes always fought eachother lol
Something slavs would never do

oh wait the 2 latest conflicts on this continent were/are slavs vs slavs.

you are a obsessed retard peter, mister contradiction.

[Peterski]

oh wait the 2 latest conflicts on this continent were/are slavs vs slavs.

Because Ukrainians are servants of Germany, slaves to Merkel. SS-Galizien, rings a bell?

This conflict is real Slavs (Russia) vs. brainwashed Slavs who serve Germany (Ukraine).

Ukrainians are German Slavs even more than Sorbs!

[Teutone]

Because Ukrainians are servants of Germany, slaves to Merkel. SS-Galizien, rings a bell?

This conflict is real Slavs (Russia) vs. brainwashed Slavs who serve Germany (Ukraine).

Ukrainians are German Slavs even more than Sorbs!

Hahaah

What I really wonder how you manage to show your obsession and inferior complex in every thread, better calm yourself or you start to speak about mass murdering again and will be banned.

[Peterski]

^^^ I just asked you to prove Kaufman wrong, and you could not prove him wrong so you reported me like Nazi Gestapo would do.

I did not say that I agree with Kaufman, but I asked people to prove wrong his theory that Germans will eventually start a new war.

[Teutone]

I just asked you to prove Kaufman wrong, and you could not prove him wrong so you reported me like Nazi Gestapo would do.

Sure be glad the posts were you called for genocides were removed by Loki, psychopath.

[Peterski]

I did not call for anything, I simply quoted Theodore Kaufman and asked you to prove him wrong.

You were unable to prove him wrong, does it mean that you agree with him about German nature?

[Teutone]

I did not call for anything, I simply quoted Theodore Kaufman and asked you to prove him wrong.

You were unable to prove him wrong, does it mean that you agree with him about German nature?

We dont play your shitty games dude

Contact Thordis, Lily or Loki if you want your memory to be refreshed old man.

[Peterski]

A Holocaust denier and a Generalplan Ost denier is teaching me about gencodies, lol.

[Teutone]

defamation at its best lol

psychopath

[Peterski]

You said Nazi Germany was not Anti-Slavic, meaning that you don't know about Generalplan Ost.

[Teutone]

Quite obvious since you few posts before called ukrainians allies of nazis, mister contradiction :D

[Phenix]

Get a room you two.

[Peterski]

Quite obvious since you few posts before called ukrainians allies of nazis, mister contradiction :D

German Nazis always had some theory about Non-Slavic origin for their Slavic allies to avoid contradiction.

They considered ethnic Ukrainians descendants of Goths, and Croats descendants of Iranic Sarmatians etc.

[Teutone]

:picard2:

Im out of this

[Peterski]

:picard2:

Im out of this

This is true, if the Nazis allied some Slavic-speakers, they always justified such alliances with theories about Non-Slavic origins of their allies.

By the way, there were even half-Jews and quarter-Jews among high-ranking Nazis. So there were exceptions, also when it comes to Slavs.

[Smitty]

I would agree with Ann Coulter that "American" is a biracial nationality. "White American" and especially "black American" more closely approach ethnicities. White Americans often have divergent origins, but I think less so than people, especially Europeans, imagine. A lot of those recent immigrant Americans (myself included) are colonials as well. And that is increasingly the case as we live alongside each other longer. Leftists have certainly thrown a wrench in the works as they've tried to redefine and reshape the country with their "new Americans" of the last fifty years. But even still, I think whites could be described as an ethnicity - colonial Americans, for sure.

[Peterski]

Kurds in your logic don't exist as ethnicity, they got no nation.

Kurds are to Iranians what Bavarians are to Germans.

If you don't consider Bavarians as an ethnicity, then neither should you consider Kurds as such. Since they are just a sub-group of Iranians.

[Westbrook]

My grandparents came to US after WW2 and told everyone they come from Nederland. It's different here now. People don't realize how many normal things in American culture came from German immigrants.
The German ethnic identity gets oppressed in the USA as much as in Europe, pre WW1 and 2 this looked totally different.
Also German is just one mayority ethnic country, here our ties with Austrians get closer and closer in a united identity.

[alnortedelsur]

Shh. Don't tell alnortedelsur that. xD

I have never said that I feel closer to white North Americans than to ALL Hispanics.

I feel much closer to Argentinians, Uruguayans, white Brazilians, white Venezuelans, white Colombians, and also to Euromestizo Latin Americans than to white North Americans.

And I perhaps also feel closer to strictly white/Amerindian balanced mestizos than to white North Americans, or about even.

So, cut already with your shit.

[Dragoon]

Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusian are slavs so united under one ethnicity.

Do you differentiate between Pan-German ethnicity and Germanic ethnicity?

[Benyzero]

Who are the "natives"?

Well, I think thats obvious, Im not claiming they have more right to the land or something, but being ethnically american sounds too ambiguous to me. Because everyone can be american who have an identity card, but what you would call ethnic american? whos family lived there for at least three generations, or who had a grand grandpa who fought in the civil war, or someone who is white, or only anglos, or everyone who have a card? Im just saying nationality and ethnics,and culture can be different in this case.

[Creoda]

People have no problem considering Boers/Afrikaners as a separate ethnicity, so why not White Americans with mostly Colonial Ancestry? They overwhelmingly just consider themselves American. No hyphenated identities.

I certainly don't think all 'white' Americans are one ethnicity however.

[Jägerstaffel]

What "interesting point" is that? Even if the quoted statement is factual, it does not seem a coherent point about the nature of the American identity is being put forward.

Well, the question was "Would you say that, given a conducive passage of time, what was once strictly a nationality can evolve into an ethnicity or something tantamount to an ethnicity?".

My answer was yes. Groups coming together as a nationality and given isolation from other groups would converge into an ethnicity. The point about where Americans generally came from is to dispel the notion that every American is just an hodgepodge haphazard amalgamation of immigrants from all over the world. The American people from 1600 - 1970 came from primarily just two regions of the world - Europe and Africa. The majority from Europe. And given enough time and without the change in immigration policy and turning a blind eye to illegal immigration we would have formed new ethnic groups.

[Jingle Bell]

I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to Americans since I know little, but I associate "American" with colonial Americans, they have a particular culture and their own way of speak so why can't they be considered an ethnic group? A Colonial American of English origin is not part of the same ethnic group as an Englishman from the United Kingdom, at least in my opinion.

[SouthDutch7991]

I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to Americans since I know little, but I associate "American" with colonial Americans, they have a particular culture and their own way of speak so why can't they be considered an ethnic group? A Colonial American of English origin is not part of the same ethnic group as an Englishman from the United Kingdom, at least in my opinion.

I'd agree, personally speaking, but this is biased because of course I "feel" as if I am part of an ethnic group. Specifically, English speaking White Americans.

[capocannoniere]

Strictly saying, WASPs are ethnic Americans, and widely saying, all amerimutts and even Black Americans.
While white Americans are not as undistinguishable phenotypically to Europeans, they've very much their own thing in culture and mannerisms for centuries now.

[Mingle]

People have no problem considering Boers/Afrikaners as a separate ethnicity, so why not White Americans with mostly Colonial Ancestry? They overwhelmingly just consider themselves American. No hyphenated identities.

I certainly don't think all 'white' Americans are one ethnicity however.

Eh, I'd maybe extend it past colonials to English-speaking European origin Americans in general. An American of Italian ancestry that lived in the US for multiple generations and only speaks English is pretty much an ethnic White American. They assimilated into the White American ethnicity.

I'd also say that White Southerners are different enough to be their own ethnicity separate from White American. They're considered by some to be.

[Tsuin]

No, it's more of a nationality imo