Which Romance language is easiest for a French speaker to understand?

[Sikeliot]

Can French speakers better understand Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, or Romanian when written? What about spoken?

I"ve always been curious.

[Comte Arnau]

They can understand Catalan better than any of those. Specially when written.

[Sikeliot]

But of the ones I named, which would be easiest?

[Grumpy Cat]

Probably different for different people. Spanish (Castillian) for me, with Portuguese not that far behind.

[Sikeliot]

Probably different for different people. Spanish (Castillian) for me, with Portuguese not that far behind.

When spoken or when written?

[Comte Arnau]

Of only those four, Italian should be somewhat easier, from an objective POV.

[Grumpy Cat]

When spoken or when written?

Written. I can understand neither spoken.

Brazilian Portuguese I can understand spoken a bit, but that has probably more to do with me being a huge Sepultura fan. I have all their stuff, even stuff in Portuguese that wasn't released outside of the Lusophonic world. I even ran a Sepultura fan site back when I was 15.

I made a concerted effort to learn to understand Portuguese, since I loved Sepultura so much.

[Sikeliot]

Of only those four, Italian should be somewhat easier, from an objective POV.

I'd have thought this too just by comparing some of the simple phrases that I know in French, Spanish, and Italian. In terms of phonetics Italian and Spanish are very close but lexically there are words shared in the other two that Spanish has nothing like, i.e. bonjour/buon giorno, fromage/formaggio, etc.

[Ouistreham]

Can French speakers better understand Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, or Romanian when written? What about spoken?

— When written: Spanish, because the plural articles ('los', 'las') offer a better transparency than the Italian 'i', 'gli'.

— When spoken: forget about Portuguese and Romanian, they sound just as unintelligible Slavic gibberish to us (more so for Portuguese BTW ). When I was young, I remember that during vacations with my parents in Spain and Italy I couldn't grasp anything from colloquial Spanish or Italian. However, when watching the TV, I had the sensation that in the beginning I could pick up a little more words in Spanish. But afterwards I learnt some Italian, which made me somewhat biased.

Oh well, must be a draw.


Strangely, Portuguese sounds more Slavic than Romanian, but when a Portuguese speaks French his accent is undoubtly Mediterranean Latin. On the other hand, French spoken by a Romanian has a strong Warsaw Pact vibe.

[Comte Arnau]

— When written: Spanish, because the plural articles ('los', 'las') offer a better transparency than the Italian 'i', 'gli'.

But articles are a simple morphological difference, just like the -i plural ending. Words with meaning, that's the important thing in written language.

French is a Gallo-Iberian language, and as such it'd be closer in some aspects to the other Gallo-Iberian ones. But Spanish+Portuguese also get a bit more distant in the core vocabulary than their Catalan+French+Italian fellows.

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH PRIMO
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN COSÍ-COUSIN-CUGINO

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH SOBRINHO, SOBRINO
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN NEBOT, NEVEU, NIPOTE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH AMANHÃ, MAÑANA
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN DEMÀ, DEMAIN, DOMANI

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH MANHÃ, MAÑANA
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN MATÍ, MATIN, MATTINA

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH CAMA
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN LLIT, LIT, LETTO

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH MEDO, MIEDO
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN POR, PEUR, PAURA

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH PÁSSARO, PÁJARO
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN OCELL, OISEAU, UCCELLO

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH VERÃO, VERANO
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN ESTIU, ÉTÉ, ESTATE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH ACHAR, HALLAR
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN TROBAR, TROUVER, TROVARE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH CHEGAR, LLEGAR
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN ARRIBAR, ARRIVER, ARRIVARE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH FERVER, HERVIR
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN BULLIR, BOUILLIR, BOLLIRE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH REZAR
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN PREGAR, PRIER, PREGARE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH FALAR, HABLAR
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN PARLAR, PARLER, PARLARE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH TOMAR
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN PRENDRE, PRENDRE, PRENDERE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH QUERER
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN VOLER, VOULOIR, VOLERE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH COMER
CATALAN+FRENCH+SPANISH MENJAR, MANGER, MANGIARE

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH JANELA/VENTÃ, VENTANA
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN FINESTRA, FENÊTRE, FINESTRA

PORTUGUESE+SPANISH SAIR, SALIR
CATALAN+FRENCH+ITALIAN SORTIR (EIXIR), SORTIR (ISSIR), USCIRE (SORTIRE)


And Romanian is a world apart.

[Ibericus]

See this table of similarirty coefficients, I don't know how accurate is that :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_similarity

[Sikeliot]

According to that, French and Italian are as lexically similar to one another as Spanish is to Portuguese.

[Comte Arnau]

According to that, French and Italian are as lexically similar to one another as Spanish is to Portuguese.

How do you know? If I'm reading well, that table only mentions the distance between French and English.

Anyway, what you say just cannot be. The lexical similarity between Portuguese and Spanish is the highest between the six major Romance languages.

[Albion]

English. :D ;)

[Ouistreham]

See this table of similarirty coefficients, I don't know how accurate is that :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_similarity

Zero accuracy. This table is a joke.

It states that French has a higher lexical similarity to German (0.29) than to English (0.27).

Did you know that???... :o

[le penalty]

The Catalan clearly after maybe italian

[Peyrol]

For a french?

-Occitan
-Franco-Provençal
-Northern italian languages
-Standard italian
-Catalan


...i presume...

[Onur]

I can speak French and sometimes i can figure it out what it says when i read some Italian text despite that i have never involved anything with Italian language before.

[Peyrol]

I can speak French and sometimes i can figure it out what it says when i read some Italian text despite that i have never involved anything with Italian language before.

This isn't surprising because the lexical is similar in all the romance languages.

An example of the same sentence in the major languages:



ITALIAN (Standard):

Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignità e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza.

SARDINIAN:

Totu sos èsseres umanos naschint lìberos e eguales in dinnidade e in deretos. Issos tenent sa resone e sa cussèntzia e depent operare s'unu cun s'àteru cun ispìritu de fraternidade

VENETIAN/VENETIC:

Tuti i èsari umani i nase łìbari e conpagni in dignità e diriti. I xe dotai de raxon e de cosiensa e i ga da agir i uni co queł'altri inte'n spìrito de fradełansa.

ROMANIAN:

Toate fiinţele umane se nasc libere şi egale în demnitate şi în drepturi. Ele sunt înzestrate cu raţiune şi conştiinţă şi trebuie să se comporte unele faţă de altele în spiritul fraternităţii.

FRENCH:

Tous les êtres humains naissent libres et égaux en dignité et en droits. Ils sont doués de raison et de conscience et doivent agir les uns envers les autres dans un esprit de fraternité.

CATALAN:

Tots els éssers humans neixen lliures i iguals en dignitat i en drets. Són dotats de raó i de consciència, i han de comportar-se fraternalment els uns amb els altres.

OCCITAN:

Totes los èssers umans naisson liures e egals en dignitat e en dreches. Son dotats de rason e de consciéncia e se devon comportar los unes amb los autres dins un esperit de fraternitat.

PIEMONTEIS:

Tuti j'esser uman a nasso lìber e uguaj an dignità e drit. A l'han ëd rasonament e 'd cossienssa e a l'han da comportesse j'un con j'àutri an spirit ëd fradlansa.

SPANISH:

Todos los seres humanos nacen libres e iguales en dignidad y derechos y, dotados como están de razón y conciencia, deben comportarse fraternalmente los unos con los otros

PORTUGUES:

Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.

SICILIAN:

Tutti li òmini nàscinu lìbbiri e li stissi nti la dignitati e nti li diritti. Iddi sunnu addutati di raciuni e di cuscenzia e hannu a travagghiari nzèmmula cu lu spìritu di la fratirnitati

[Comte Arnau]

For a french?

-Occitan
-Franco-Provençal
-Northern italian languages
-Standard italian
-Catalan


...i presume...

My order would be:

- Standard French
- Oil languages (Walloon, Picard, Norman, Poitevin, etc)
- Franco-Provençal
- Occitan

I'm more insecure about what the exact order would be for the following: Rhaeto-Romance languages, Gallo-Italic languages, Standard Catalan and Standard Italian, as all of them have out-of-France strong influence. It'd probably depend on the context, the language register and the person's knowledge.

[Twistedmind]

I'm more insecure about what the exact order would be for the following: Rhaeto-Romance languages, Gallo-Italic languages, Standard Catalan and Standard Italian, as all of them have out-of-France strong influence. It'd probably depend on the context, the language register and the person's knowledge.

Gennetically, that would be Gallo-Italic languages, but agree it depends on context.

[Comte Arnau]

Gennetically, that would be Gallo-Italic languages, but agree it depends on context.

Well, I see Gallo-Italic and "Gallo-Iberian" languages as similarly close, that's why I think it pretty depends on other factors.

This is how I see the distance of the Romance languages from French, more or less.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/jt5rbm.jpg

[Xochi]

Out of those four, probably Italian. If you include Catalan, then Catalan. If you include smaller Romance languages/varieties probably Occitan even more the oil varieties of northern France like Picard, Norman, Walloon etc.

[Mens-Sarda]

also Sardinia is a world apart, it's like a little continent with languages changing from north to south of the island :biggrin:

cousin = fradìle
cousine = sorrasta

nephew = nebode, nepode
niece = netta

tomorrow = cras

morning = manzanu (northern Sardinian) mengianu (southern Sardinian)

bed = lettu

fear = timore, timòria

bird = puzòne (northern Sardinian), pilloni (southern Sardinian)

summer = istìu (norhern Sardinian) istadi (southern Sardinian)

to find = agattare, acciappare

to arrive = arrivare

to boil = buddire

to pray = pregare

to speak = faeddare (northern Sardinian) fueddai (southern Sardinian)

to take = leare (northern Sardinian) pigai (southern Sardinian)

to want = quèrrere (northern Sardinian) bòliri (southern Sardinian)

to eat = manigare, mandigare (northern Sardinian) pappai (southern Sardinian)

window = balcone, fenestra (northern Sardinian) ventana (southern Sardinian)

to exit = essire (northern Sardinian) bissìri (southern Sardinian)

[Rudel]

Written and spoken :
- Any Occitan dialect, the most Gallicized (on the Périgord-Provence arc) being the easiest.

Besides that, written :
- Catalan

Spoken :
- Italian


I'm more insecure about what the exact order would be for the following: Rhaeto-Romance languages, Gallo-Italic languages, Standard Catalan and Standard Italian, as all of them have out-of-France strong influence. It'd probably depend on the context, the language register and the person's knowledge.
Most Gallo-Italic languages are about as understandable as Romanian, if not less, to the exception of spoken Piémontéis.
Rhæto-Romance can be a very tricky group, I do well myself but that's not any indication.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/jt5rbm.jpg
All Oil languages are French. French is all Oil languages. I'd even add Franco-Provençal myself.

Also, « Free-Countian », hahahahahaha.

[Comte Arnau]

All Oil languages are French. French is all Oil languages. I'd even add Franco-Provençal myself.


Do you consider the Portuguese-Asturian-Spanish cluster to be one single language too?

[Rudel]

Do you consider the Portuguese-Asturian-Spanish cluster to be one single language too?
No, for historical and political reasons (which is mostly what define languages, however hard we try to sugar-coat it scientificism).
But I think they should be a single language.

[Comte Arnau]

No, for historical and political reasons (which is mostly what define languages, however hard we try to sugar-coat it scientificism).

There we will always disagree then.

[Rudel]

There we will always disagree then.
The definition of any language stems from the interactions between linguistic reality and para or extra-linguistic representations, the latter being highly political in nature and frankly more decisive in the inception of any language. There is no language without the conscience of the language.
The fact that your language is what it is (internal properties) and that it is Catalan (external properties pertaining to the designation, normativisation and appropriation of the language) owes as much to its genealogy as to the history of the county of Barcelona and kingdom of Aragon.

If things had been different, who knows, you might be speaking a thing called Narbonès or Empurian with overall similar core features and approaching borders that could or not be a subset to an another language (provided it hadn't been replaced by something entirely different)
The existence of Catalan as such wasn't written in marble to begin with and a language is more than the sum of its pure linguistic parameters.

[Comte Arnau]

The definition of any language stems from the interactions between linguistic reality and para or extra-linguistic representations, the latter being highly political in nature and frankly more decisive in the inception of any language. There is no language without the conscience of the language.

There is hardly any conscience between the speakers of the different varieties of Aragonese, and yet linguists know it is a language because despite the difference, the whole system can be defined on linguistic terms. However, following the extralinguistic parametres you mentioned, Aragonese had been wrongly classified as a "dialect of Spanish" for centuries. Not all speakers of a language are conscious of it. If a speaker of an Occitan variety thinks he's speaking 'bad French', patois, that doesn't make it 'bad French' for a linguist.

On the other hand, Bosnia can establish that the country has three official languages, Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian, but such a political action won't just fool any serious linguist.

[Rudel]

There is hardly any conscience between the speakers of the different varieties of Aragonese, and yet linguists know it is a language because despite the difference, the whole system can be defined on linguistic terms. However, following the extralinguistic parametres you mentioned, Aragonese had been wrongly classified as a "dialect of Spanish" for centuries. Not all speakers of a language are conscious of it. If a speaker of an Occitan variety thinks he's speaking 'bad French', patois, that doesn't make it 'bad French' for a linguist.

On the other hand, Bosnia can establish that the country has three official languages, Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian, but such a political action won't just fool any serious linguist.
Academic bias. Linguists have very little authority outside their classrooms.

[Comte Arnau]

Academic bias. Linguists have very little authority outside their classrooms.

Well, he who prefers to belong to the average mass and believe there are only five Romance languages is free to do so, of course. Beatus ille...

[Ouistreham]

This is how I see the distance of the Romance languages from French, more or less.
http://oi45.tinypic.com/jt5rbm.jpg

I've seen a lot of crazy statements on The Apricity but this one takes the cake!

Champenois, Picard, Free-Countian (big LOL) being outside of French? LMAO!

"Orleanese", "Arpitan", "Gallo", what next?

It's like saying that Kentish, Oxfordian and Cambridgian might have some mutual intelligibility with English.


Gennetically, that would be Gallo-Italic languages, but agree it depends on context.
Gallo-Italic dialects are ununderstandable gibberish to us.

[Comte Arnau]

http://oi45.tinypic.com/jt5rbm.jpg

I've seen a lot of crazy statements on The Apricity but this one takes the cake!

Champenois, Picard, Free-Countian (big LOL) being outside of French? LMAO!

"Orleanese", "Arpitan", "Gallo", what next?

It's like saying that Kentish, Oxfordian and Cambridgian might have some mutual intelligibility with English.

You're going all drama queen for a personal interpretation of the graphic. You can consider the whole blue square one single language, if you so need to.

[Rudel]

You're going all drama queen for a personal interpretation of the graphic. You can consider the whole blue square one single language, if you so need to.
"Free-Countian" is worth every bit of it though.