Can Islam be Reformed? Poll!

[Petros Agapetos]

Can Islam be Reformed? Poll!

Islam has the doctrine of abrogation. The Qur'an has Meccan and Medinan verses. The Medinan passages, which are generally violent, were revealed to Muhammad after the Meccan passages. When there is a contradiction, the later fighting passages overrule the earlier more peaceful passages. That is why Islam is radical. If there were a doctrine of supra-abrogation whereby the earlier passages are considerred to overrule the later passages, Islam would be a lot more peaceful. Unfortunately, such a way of understanding the Qur'an could never be mainstreamed.

[Petros Agapetos]

The Qur'an is considerred Allah's divine speech (not Muhammad's). Whereas, Bible believing Christians do not make such a claim about the Bible. Rather, Christians believe that the Bible was written by people inspired by God, however Christians acknowledge that humans were involved in the transmission of the God's word. That is why exhortations to fight non-believers have such an impact on the Muslim. No human author is assumed to have been involved. Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the uncreated word of Allah that existed in paradise before Muhammad received the revelations, and that the angel Gabriel dictated this book verse by verse to Muhammad. Muhammad is not believed to have communicated with Allah directly. There are three eternal things in Islam. Allah, his book, and his throne. In Islam, it is mainstream to take the Quran literally. Muslims adhere closely to the Qur'an. In order to reform the religion, we must defang the religion, give them an interpretative tool that blunts the force of the passages exhorting Muslims to warfare against non-believers.

[Teutone]

Why you so obsessed with Islam? You turn to be a Peterski

[Petros Agapetos]

One can argue, in a way, Islam has already been reformed...

Have you heard of Wahabism?

Named after "Abdul Wahab", an Islamic reformer who thought that the Ottomans had strayed from true Islam by accepting non-Islamic innovations. So, he stripped Islam of outer influences, and produced an even more violent and supremacist stream of Islam. Because reform is often thought to be going back to the original sources and roots of the religion, any reform would be futile in my view, because the Qur'an alone is an inherently violent and supremacist book, not even counting any of the hadiths?

The Question is "Is any reform Islamically correct"?

[Maks Luburic]

I guess it´s nearly impossible. "Liberal Muslims" should join/convert to Christianity, like I did years ago.

[Crimson Winds]

You'll make me Muslim again with your dumbness and distortionist approach.

[Petros Agapetos]

I guess it´s nearly impossible. "Liberal Muslims" should join/convert to Christianity, like I did years ago.

I am glad to hear you have escaped from the clutches of Islam. I hope you are safe, as the death penalty lies on the head of all apostates from Islam. I think it would be easier to deconvert Muslims to atheism than teach them a different religion. I am an atheist, I don't have a religion. I don't believe in Christianity, so I could not convert a Muslim to Christianity, but I can help Muslims leave Islam.

In an Islamic state, people are put to death for things like apostasy, blasphemy, and criticizing Islam (by saying anything impermissible about the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah).

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6vGiiZfVqo

[Petros Agapetos]

A possible way to reform Islam is to ignore the Hadith collections and only adhere to the Qur'an. Quranist (Qur'an only) Muslims are a minority. Orthodox Sunni and Shia Islam also follow the hadiths. Even if the Muslims only follow the Qur'an, therein they can find many prescriptions to fight non-believers, to subjugate Jews and Christians, to fight until religion is all for Allah, other such passages are in the Qur'an. One wouldn't get a peaceful religion out of it by a long shot. But still better than Orthodox Islam.

[Thorns]

You'll make me Muslim again with your dumbness and distortionist approach.
That makes a lot of sense...

[Petros Agapetos]

I think Islam cannot be reformed. It is too strict. The Qur'an is not as long as the Bible (it is shorter than the New Testament). That is why the Qur'an's exhortations to violence stand out. The Qur'an is a more stream-line book. Inciting hatred towards non-believers is central to the faith. The Qur'an talks about the non-believers more than the believers. No matter which page you open your Qur'an, you will find denunciations of the non-believers. Islam teaches Muslims to hate those "who hate Allah"; of course in practice this ends up causing Muslims to hate non-Muslims.

Abrogation (naskh)
The Meccan verses are more tolerant. In Islamic theology, the Medinan *violent* passages take precedence over the Meccan *peaceful* passages. This is called "Naskh", Abrogation. One would have to switch these two, so that the Meccan verses take precedence. Some reformers who have tried this have been executed (example Muhammad Taha in Sudan).

[Ayetooey]

The real question is can Petros Agapetos be reformed? Human living reincarnation of Enver Hoxha.

[Ayetooey]

A possible way to reform Islam is to ignore the Hadith collections and only adhere to the Qur'an. Quranist (Qur'an only) Muslims are a minority. Orthodox Sunni and Shia Islam also follow the hadiths. Even if the Muslims only follow the Qur'an, therein they can find many prescriptions to fight non-believers, to subjugate Jews and Christians, to fight until religion is all for Allah, other such passages are in the Qur'an. One wouldn't get a peaceful religion out of it by a long shot.

Quranist islam is a lot more peaceful (and makes more sense), vast majority of the weird stuff comes from the Hadith.

[Luca]

no amount of reforming will give mad muslim men their foreskin back
rip

1 like to this post = one prayer to all the men who lost their dignity this way

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C22NFtwBogk
An ex-Muslim, the Apostate Prophet, discusses whether Islam can be reformed.

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmAyKIEiNgg

Audience: "I have a question about what is so seductive about Islam."
Robert Spencer: "You cannot take Muhammad and Sharia out of Islam."

The book (The Qur'an) is so full of hate, so full of exhortations to violence, that the more devout Muslims become, the worse people they become.
Because of all the violence and hatred in the Qur'an, even if some Muslims would not kill, they would also not mind if others kill, because they know it is Qur'anically mandated.

Jihad means struggle. There are as many struggles in Arabic as there are in English. However, in Islamic theology, jihad refers to warfare against non-believers.

The lesser jihad mandates warfare against non-believers.

1. Muslims invite non-Muslims to join Islam
2. If not, then they demand Jews and Chrstians enter the Islamic social order as dhimmis (in order to subjugate them).
3. If not, then seek Allah's help and fight them.

The non-Muslims must suffer by the hands of the Muslims in this world and accept the insitutionalized harassment that dhimmitude brings them.

[Petros Agapetos]

Please vote on the poll!
I am curious what you think.

[Loki]

No, it's a false religion, it cannot be reformed. Muslims must turn to the true God and Saviour, Jesus Christ. That is the only way for them.

[Teutone]

That makes a lot of sense...


no amount of reforming will give mad muslim men their foreskin back
rip

1 like to this post = one prayer to all the men who lost their dignity this way

Wo bleibst du? Und wurde gesagt du kommst zum besonderen Chat?

[Blondie]

No, islam is a cancer.

[Thorns]

Wo bleibst du? Und wurde gesagt du kommst zum besonderen Chat?

I'm in castle Blargittyblargensteinenbergenleben.

[Hungarian_master]

I think the Sufism is a good side of Islam. This is the peaceful, un-politic and spiritual Islam. So, the Sufi Islam don't need the Reformation, actually slighty similar to Protestant Christianity.

The most native European Muslims follow the Sufism.

[Petros Agapetos]

I think the Sufism is a good side of Islam. This is the peaceful, un-politic and spiritual Islam. So, the Sufi Islam don't need the Reformation, actually slighty similar to Protestant Christianity.

The most native European Muslims follow the Sufism.

The Sufis have their mysticism; which I appreciate; but the Chechens are Sufis, and they fought jihad against the Russians.
Fighting is prescribed for them as well. There is no sect or school of jurisprudence in Islam that does not teach the necessity to wage warfare against non-believers.

[Petros Agapetos]

I don't think Muslims would accept any reform of their religion that involves editing the Qur'an. The Qur'an is considered to be the divine speech of Allah.

But what about the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim? Muslims follow these books because the Qur'an calls Muhammad the perfect person (perfect example of human conduct), therefore anything that Muhammad said and did is normative for Islamic law. Muslims need to reconceptualize the role of the last prophet Muhammad. Even according to Islam, the Muslim prophet Jesus is going to return at the end of days (but not Muhammad). The Qur'an calls Jesus the word of God (but not Muhammad). Jesus has more powers than Muhammad.

[wvwvw]

Only I can reform it.

[Petros Agapetos]

Only I can reform it.

How would you go about doing that? I am curious. And how can we get Muslims to follow the newly reformed version of Islam as opposed to Islam as it has been classically formulated?

[Asheffar]

The Sufis have their mysticism; which I appreciate; but the Chechens are Sufis, and they fought jihad against the Russians.
Fighting is prescribed for them as well. There is no sect or school of jurisprudence in Islam that does not teach the necessity to wage warfare against non-believers.
I’m not Muslim nor do I support Islam . But chechens used Islam as a political tool for separatist agenda. Since the biggest difference between them and Russian occupier is that they they are Muslim and christian Russia is Occupying chechen muslim land,this attract Muslims from middle east from Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia,yemen,Syria... In fact this Jihad was pushed by wahhabi Saudi propaganda,funding and arming

[Phenix]

One can argue, in a way, Islam has already been reformed...

Have you heard of Wahabism?

Named after "Abdul Wahab", an Islamic reformer who thought that the Ottomans had strayed from true Islam by accepting non-Islamic innovations.
So, he stripped Islam of outer influences, and produced an even more violent and supremacist stream of Islam. Because reform is often thought to be going back to the original sources and roots of the religion, any reform would be futile in my view, because the Qur'an alone is an inherently violent and supremacist book, not even counting any of the hadiths?

The Question is "Is any reform Islamically correct"?

Wahabism is not a reform, but a puritan reactionary movement.


I don't think Muslims would accept any reform of their religion that involves editing the Qur'an. The Qur'an is considered to be the divine speech of Allah.

You answered yourself.

[rajputprincess]

It can definitely most muslim just need to become more non practicing honestly i think that in next 50 year at least muslim in Muslim majority countries and non muslim country would become more modern and non practicing muslim.

Sent from my ZUK Z2132 using Tapatalk

[Petros Agapetos]

What reasons do you have for thinking Islam cannot be reformed? List them.

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K9DunSOSCI
Islam and Secularism with Robert Spencer

[Petros Agapetos]

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know" - Qur'an 8:60

"You have heard that it was said 'You shall love your neighbour, and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven..." - Matthew 5:43,45

[Petros Agapetos]

"And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you" - Qur'an 2:194

"But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you" - Matthew 5:39-42

[Petros Agapetos]

Islam teaches that Muslims should not seek peace when they have the upper hand against the infidels:

"Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds." - Qur'an 47:35

Yet if the infidels ask for peace, which obviously they would be more likely to do if the Muslims have the upper hand, the Muslims should grant it:

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth all things." - Qur'an 8:61

Faced with the patent contradiction, the great early authority on the Qur'an Muhammad's cousin Ibn Abbas, stated - not surprisingly - that the verse about inclining toward peace had been abrogated by the Verse of the Sword (Qur'an 9:5)

[Petros Agapetos]

"Therefore when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them: thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom, until the way lays down its burdens...But those who are slain in the Way of Allah, He will bever let their deeds be lost." - Qur'an 47:4

[Petros Agapetos]

The Hadith Illuminates the Qur'an

Music is banned in Islam (by the Hadiths).

"Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me a s a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes , and the affair of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance."

"On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress."

"Song makes hypocrisy grow in the heart as water does herbage."

[Maks Luburic]

No, islam is a cancer.

Just 17 years old and already so smart. Would like to have girls like you in Germany.

German girls are just stupid with their fucking "refugee welcome" posters/t-shirts/etc..

[Petros Agapetos]

We will not be able to resist jihad without recovering pride in Western civilization.

[Petros Agapetos]

Islamic Reform: How Firm a Foundation? (http://https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/07/islamic-reform-how-firm-a-foundation)

If this book [Quran] came from God and it’s divine and perfect, then the Jihadis are justified,” states Islam reformer Shireen Qudosi in The Challenge of Modernizing Islam: Reformers Speak Out and the Obstacles They Face. Her sober conclusion amidst an illuminating collection of interviews with her like-minded colleagues in Christine Douglass-Williams’ indispensable recent book indicates the daunting obstacles facing any Islamic doctrinal reform.

[Wanderer]

No, it cannot be "reformed"; the very foundation of the religion is false and satanic. Even if you suppress its more manifestly evil tendencies, it still leads massive numbers of people away from salvation through Christ.

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcalFrQpPGo

[Mens-Sarda]

It cannot be reformed because it's an anarchist and decentralised religion, there is no supreme leader, no organization, no clergy, no infrastructure. So nothing can be changed or reformed. Every single imam in the world can explain the quran according to his understanding of it, and he can transmit his knowledge to the believers, no matter if his knowledge is twisted or wrong or he didn't understand the message; because there isn't a clerical infrastructure to rebuke him if he's wrong.

I think that this (dis)organization it's an heritage of the tribal origin of the Arabs, which lived for millennia divided into various nomad tribes scattered throughout the desert; this anarchism and tribalism it's innate into their society, and influenced the way their religion is shaped. This is also the reason why the Arab Empire lasted only about 2 centuries, the tribalist mentality and the ancient rivalries caused its collapse from inside, dividing it in dozens weaker kingdoms.

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXSSHWYj5sI

[Petros Agapetos]

What year can you envision Islam be reformed?

2,100
2,500
3,000
10,000

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSVMaNVzO-w

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvie5RDbEWc&t=10s

[Regnera]

I think Islam can be reformed

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR7_YQ53lfI

[Petros Agapetos]

Can you take jihad and sharia out of Islam? I don't think that's even possible.

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igwaOrv7WGs

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrXXe8T158o

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAwYeoz3VI4

[Mingle]

The Nizaris of are said to be fairly peaceful from what I heard. The Nizaris are are a sect of Ismaili Muslims (second largest Shia branch). Their current leader is Aga Khan. Nizaris are mostly found in Badakhshan and Hunza with maybe some pockets possibly existing in a few parts of India.

Here's a quote from the Economist I found on their Wikipedia page:


In view of the importance that Islām places on maintaining a balance between the spiritual well-being of the individual and the quality of his life, the Imām's guidance deals with both aspects of the life of his followers. The Aga Khan has encouraged Ismā'īlī Muslims, settled in the industrialized world, to contribute towards the progress of communities in the developing world through various development programs. Indeed, the Economist noted: that Isma'ili immigrant communities, integrated seamlessly as an immigrant community, and did better at attaining graduate and post graduate degrees, "far surpassing their native, Hindu, Sikh, fellow Muslims, and Chinese communities".[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizari

[Petros Agapetos]

Muʿtazila (Arabic: المعتزلة‎ al-muʿtazilah) is a rationalist school of Islamic theology[1][2] that flourished in the cities of Basra and Baghdad, both now in Iraq, during the 8th to the 10th centuries.[1]

The adherents of the Muʿtazili school, known as Muʿtazilites, are best known for denying the status of the Qur'an as uncreated and co-eternal with God,[3] asserting that if the Quran is the word of God, He logically "must have preceded his own speech".[4]

The philosophical speculation of the Muʿtazilites centred on the concepts of divine justice and divine unity.[5] The school worked to resolve the theological "problem of evil": how to reconcile the justice of an all-powerful God with the reality of evil in the world.[6] It believed that since God is just and wise, He cannot command what is contrary to reason or act with disregard for the welfare of His creatures.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%CA%BFtazila

The Mutazilites got wiped out by other Muslims.

Another possible way to reform Islam is to re-open the gates of "ij_dihad"; or a revival of the Mutazilite movement.

[Yaglakar]

The Sufis have their mysticism; which I appreciate; but the Chechens are Sufis, and they fought jihad against the Russians.
Fighting is prescribed for them as well. There is no sect or school of jurisprudence in Islam that does not teach the necessity to wage warfare against non-believers.

Are you dumb or what? Russian empire was invading Caucasus, Chechens were resisting. Nothing to do with religion.

[Crimson Winds]

Are you dumb or what? Russian empire was invading Caucasus, Chechens were resisting. Nothing to do with religion.

Also, Islam was only institulized in Dagestan other remaning parts especially Circassia was Muslim on paper. What makes North Caucasians Muslim today is Russian-Christian agression.

[Petros Agapetos]

Are you dumb or what? Russian empire was invading Caucasus, Chechens were resisting. Nothing to do with religion.

WRONG!

Chechens fought jihad against the Russians; in order to strike terror into their hearts and subjugate them under Islamic law. Just because they did not succeed in occupying Russia doesn't mean they didn't try to do so.


Child jihadists are multiplying, to the professed horror of parents in Chechnya (https://www.jihadwatch.org/category/chechnya).

“We promise fear and death in the hearts of unbelievers. Victory or jihad!” the boys vow, as the youngest brandishes a knife and an iPhone displaying Isil’s black flag. The children are being taught in accordance with a doctrine that has been proliferating […]

Chechen child jihadis: “we shall instill fear and terror in the hearts of the infidels and the apostates."

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Most Muslims don’t follow a violent or lunatic idea of their religion. They have a theology that is peaceful, and take every verse in a peaceful context.

[Petros Agapetos]

Most Muslims don’t follow a violent or lunatic idea of their religion. They have a theology that is peaceful, and take every verse in a peaceful context.

Actually, Islam is a violent religion in its essence. The only good Muslim is a bad Muslim, that is, a Muslim who is not a Muslim at all. What Islam teaches is one thing, and what Muslims believe about Islam is another. But it is clear that Islam teaches Muslims to conquer, subjugate, or convert non-Muslims. Here is a video debunking the myth of the tiny radical muslim minority by Ben Shapiro.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg

Ben Shapiro explains that radical Muslims are actually in the majority (over 800 million people worldwide).

[jingorex]

that depends on what your definition of 'reformed' means.

[Petros Agapetos]

that depends on what your definition of 'reformed' means.

Let's say reform means revising the doctrines of jihad, martyrdom, and fighting infidels. Do you envision any Islamic reformation that purges these doctrines from Islam?

[Petros Agapetos]

Another possible way to reform Islam is to reject the literal understanding of the Qur'an which is foremost in Islam and has always been so.

[Roy]

Another possible way to reform Islam is to reject the literal understanding of the Qur'an which is foremost in Islam and has always been so.

There are some progressive advocates of reform inside the Islam like Amina Wadud, Sherin Khankan or Ajmal Masroor but the are too few and far between to gain any traction.

[Petros Agapetos]

There are some progressive advocates of reform inside the Islam like Amina Wadud, Sherin Khankan or Ajmal Masroor but the are too few and far between to gain any traction.

Have you heard of Zuhdi Jasser and Maajid Nawaz? They are reformers also. They are great moderate Muslims.
Maajid Nawaz is a good friend of Sam Harris'. A former rogue Islamist now turned progressive leftist reformer.
Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz have written a book together "Islam and The Future of Tolerance" in which they discuss Islamic reform.
I wish them success. But I am not going to kid myself into believing Islam will be reformed in my lifetime. This is a civilizational struggle lasting centuries upon centuries.

[Pandur]

Y O U A G A I N ?

[amXman]

am muslim sunni , decent of jewish , my answer is if islam that comes in Qoran than NO cant be reformed and this islam allow things and forbid things ( punish for some stuffs and forgive for others ) so IS WISE .
but if islam who was made by blabla ( such from xxx who heard from yyy ..say that prophet did this and that which somes try make it sunna and fake words of prophet) this one not only reformed but vanished .