Vikings: genetic similarity to modern populations

[Peterski]

This map is for Viking Age Sigtuna (average of ~20 samples):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#10/59.4889/18.0277

https://i.imgur.com/oMxFaC6.png

[Bellbeaking]

nice post. why so close to Wales and Ireland?

Got any danish and norweigan samples?

[Rædwald]

https://i.postimg.cc/3wSQn9Qv/Screenshot-2018-12-31-at-00-09-27.png

[posts in viking] :viking1:

[Peterski]

why so close to Wales and Ireland?

Three factors contributed IMO:

1. Already before the Viking Age, Insular Celts were quite similar to Scandinavians,

2. Actual Viking admixture in Ireland and Wales contributed to increased similarity,

3. Some of Sigtuna samples included in the average are British-shifted genetically.


Got any danish and norweigan samples?

Modern, or ancient Viking Age ones?

[Peterski]

What about Kashubians and Northern Poles?

Their score is 73 - as similar to Vikings as modern Belgians, and not much less than Scots (76).

But I think this similarity likely dates back mostly to Goths and Gepids (Iron Age), not to Vikings.

On the other hand, Pomeranian Slavs also visited Scandinavia, so it was a two-way movement.

In fact a few samples from Sigtuna are eastern-shifted, but rather in Estonian/Finnish direction. Only one is Balto-Slavic-shifted.

[Matxe92]

Kinda interresting how "western" shifted northern poles seem to be compared to more eastern slavs. Wonder why that is.

[Peterski]

Kinda interresting how "western" shifted northern poles seem to be compared to more eastern slavs. Wonder why that is.

North-western. Because when you compare them to a South German population (like Upper Swabia, below), then Southern Poles are more similar (67):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Swabia

https://i.imgur.com/vOji0ff.png

[Token]

The Scandinavian looking samples are extremely northern shifted, even closer to Nordic_IA than modern-day Norwegians.

[Bellbeaking]

Three factors contributed IMO:

1. Already before the Viking Age, Insular Celts were quite similar to Scandinavians,

2. Actual Viking admixture in Ireland and Wales contributed to increased similarity,

3. Some of Sigtuna samples included in the average are British-shifted genetically.

Interesting stuff


Modern, or ancient Viking Age ones?

I think ancient and modern would be interesting, but especially ancient. What is the main difference between ancient and modern scandis?

[Dacul]

Lol, so most of the today Europe is more than half similar to old Vikings?
:)

[cass]

Kinda interresting how "western" shifted northern poles seem to be compared to more eastern slavs. Wonder why that is.

http://cas.au.dk/fileadmin/user_upload/MCH_ScandSlavRelations_poster.pdf

I've read about latest excavations of early medieval Slavic settlements in Scandinavia, even Iceland.


https://www.academia.edu/6437358/The_one-farm_history_of_the_Icelandic_identity_formation

[Peterski]

but especially ancient

Check this map, so far there are no Viking Age samples from Denmark/Norway:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/58.69/-11.58

BTW, France looks so empty in this map. "Black hole" of ancient DNA. :)

[Leto]

No surprise they are the closest to Denmark, South Sweden and Norway.

[Matxe92]

Lol, so most of the today Europe is more than half similar to old Vikings?
:)

Every ethnic group in europe is very similiar to each other. It's really only the bigger ones like europeans vs asians vs africans vs aboriginals where there is difference.

[Bellbeaking]

Aren't some of the samples in this OP post non Scandinavian.

[Token]

Aren't some of the samples in this OP post non Scandinavian.

Yes, some samples used are not even Vikings but foreign merchants. This similarity map is not perfectly representative of how Vikings looked like.

[Bellbeaking]

Yes, some samples used are not even Vikings but foreign merchants. This similarity map is not perfectly representative of how Vikings looked like.

Can we isolate the samples and just use a scandinavian individual? Or is that not possible to do?

[Token]

Can we isolate the samples and just use a scandinavian individual? Or is that not possible to do?

Yes.

[Aren]

This includes the several outliers?

Edit: Removing the outliers I get this average

https://i.imgur.com/EhWGuFF.png

[Lucas]

This includes the several outliers?

Edit: Removing the outliers I get this average

https://i.imgur.com/EhWGuFF.png

Good move. Sigtuna was medieval multi-culti town. Average with all samples was like average of modern Stockholm...

[Sikeliot]

So much for Viking input in Sicily :lol: Lowest similarity in Europe along with Sardinia, Calabria and the Dodecanese.

[Leto]

So much for Viking input in Sicily :lol: Lowest similarity in Europe along with Sardinia, Calabria and the Dodecanese.
So now you can sleep at night - they are confirmed wogs.

[Bellbeaking]

This includes the several outliers?

Edit: Removing the outliers I get this average

https://i.imgur.com/EhWGuFF.png

they got even more British lolz

[Peterski]

Good move. Sigtuna was medieval multi-culti town. Average with all samples was like average of modern Stockholm...
This includes the several outliers?

Edit: Removing the outliers I get this average

https://i.imgur.com/EhWGuFF.png

Looks like Aren removed only the Finnic-shifted outliers but not the British-shifted (or Celtic-shifted) ones.

I you remove all, similarity to Britain declines too. BTW Aren, after you removed outliers, similarity to modern Swedes declined from 89 to 88. So if your point was to prove that Sigtuna was exceptionally multicultural and modern Swedes are not descended from people like those in Sigtuna, then you actually disproved it.

Also I showed you in PM, that average of all Sigtuna samples is still closer to RISE174 than to modern Swedes.

[Coastal Elite]

Three factors contributed IMO:

1. Already before the Viking Age, Insular Celts were quite similar to Scandinavians,

2. Actual Viking admixture in Ireland and Wales contributed to increased similarity,

3. Some of Sigtuna samples included in the average are British-shifted genetically.



Modern, or ancient Viking Age ones?

Can a similar map be made for Hallstatt Celts? I saw the one you posted for British Celts. I assume it can't be done for Dacians because there are no real samples.

[Peterski]

Can a similar map be made for Hallstatt Celts?

There are two Hallstatt Celts: one of them is very British-like, the other one very French-like.

So it seems that they were not a homogeneous population.

But it is not the only or even the oldest sample from Central Europe with British-like results.

[Coastal Elite]

There are two Hallstatt Celts: one of them is very British-like, the other one very French-like.

So it seems that they were not a homogeneous population.

But it is not the only or even the oldest sample from Central Europe with British-like results.

That's cool. I'd like to see one with the French-like Hallstatts. I appreciate you posting these maps.

[Peterski]

That's cool. I'd like to see one with the French-like Hallstatts. I appreciate you posting these maps.

Here is the "French-like" one (turns out actually just as similar to Britain as to France; but not very similar to any modern population, only 70-something):

https://i.imgur.com/GsuGTTz.png

So it seems that today there are no any populations who are genetically exactly like Hallstatt DA111. BTW, this guy lived in what is today Czech Republic.

[Dick]

Here is the "French-like" one (turns out actually just as similar to Britain as to France; but not very similar to any modern population, only 70-something):

https://i.imgur.com/GsuGTTz.png

So it seems that today there are no any populations who are genetically exactly like Hallstatt DA111.

So if someone gets mostly 70-something on this then they're not related to any modern population?

[Peterski]

So if someone gets mostly 70-something on this then they're not related to any modern population?

They are related but not super similar. Check my father for example, he scores 70 to both Danes and to Lithuanians:

https://i.imgur.com/siecSW4.png

^^^ But areas where he scores over 85 are all West Slavic lands:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbXPAt-qXFE

[Dick]

They are related but not super similar. Check my father for example, he scores 70 to both Danes and to Lithuanians:

https://i.imgur.com/siecSW4.png

Ok but I meant not getting anything above 80 or in the "red" at all.

[Coastal Elite]

Here is the "French-like" one (turns out actually just as similar to Britain as to France; but not very similar to any modern population, only 70-something):

So it seems that today there are no any populations who are genetically exactly like Hallstatt DA111. BTW, this guy lived in what is today Czech Republic.

I see. I think I come closest to this "French" Hallstatt map of all the ones you posted so far.

https://i.imgur.com/bxfkyBg.png

[Peterski]

Recently ethnically mixed people often get results like DA111 - they are not very similar to any single population.

Maybe DA111 was ethnically mixed, or was a part of population that later mixed and did not survive in pure form.


I see. I think I come closest to this "French" Hallstatt map of all the ones you posted so far.

https://i.imgur.com/bxfkyBg.png

Yes, because you are a recent mix of Romanian and Irish.

[Coastal Elite]

Recently ethnically mixed people often get results like DA111 - they are not very similar to any single population.

Maybe DA111 was ethnically mixed, or was a part of population that later mixed and did not survive in pure form.



Yes, because you are a recent mix of Romanian and Irish.

Long live the ethnically mixed people often getting results like DA111! French Hallstatts!
J'aime l'europe et tous ses habitants

[Peterski]

Long live the ethnically mixed people often getting results like DA111! French Hallstatts!

If you marry another Romanian/Irish mix you can reconstruct a Hallstatt Celtic tribe.

[Coastal Elite]

If you marry another Romanian/Irish mix you can reconstruct a Hallstatt Celtic tribe.

LOL! It's a huge undertaking. In America, I think Chicago or the upper midwest is where you meet that kinda mix.

[Peterski]

Yes, some samples used are not even Vikings but foreign merchants.

How do you know it, were they buried without weapons (or was it determined that they were not warriors)?

Anyway if you remove outliers, then similarity of the remaining ones to modern Swedes declines.

So apparently they were not just some passer-byes but they actually stayed and mixed into the population.

[Bellbeaking]

This includes the several outliers?

Edit: Removing the outliers I get this average

https://i.imgur.chWGuFF.png

did you forget to move the British/french outliers?

[Sebastianus Rex]

So much for Viking input in Sicily :lol: Lowest similarity in Europe along with Sardinia, Calabria and the Dodecanese.

What do you say about Basques sharing the least similarity with Vikings of the whole the Iberian Peninsula?

One more confirmation that they are rather genetically isolated ?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Kinda surprised that Finns similarity levels average with Vikings is lower than Iberians, despite the geographical distances.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Kinda surprised that Finns similarity levels average with Vikings is lower than Iberians, despite the geographical distances.

Amazing indeed. Finns are not scandos, it is absolutely established.

[Token]

Kinda surprised that Finns similarity levels average with Vikings is lower than Iberians, despite the geographical distances.
Finns underwent Balto-Slavic and, more recently, Finnic specific drift that skews the fst distances in an analysis with so many dimensions. As you can see in the map, all Balto-Slavs are affected by this same phenomenom.

Finns are much closer to Vikings than Iberians are when you look at formal stats.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Finns underwent Balto-Slavic and, more recently, Finnic specific drift that skews the fst distances in an analysis with so many dimensions. As you can see in the map, all Balto-Slavs are affected by this same phenomenom.

Finns are much closer to Vikings than Iberians are when you look at formal stats.

Baltic States have still more similarity with Vikings than Finns in this analysis anyway. Which isn't surprising because they were under Danish, Prussian, Swedish and Russian rule for centuries unlike Finns, so my bet would be that they received a little extra Germanic input.

[Aren]

Looks like Aren removed only the Finnic-shifted outliers but not the British-shifted (or Celtic-shifted) ones.

I you remove all, similarity to Britain declines too. BTW Aren, after you removed outliers, similarity to modern Swedes declined from 89 to 88. So if your point was to prove that Sigtuna was exceptionally multicultural and modern Swedes are not descended from people like those in Sigtuna, then you actually disproved it.

Also I showed you in PM, that average of all Sigtuna samples is still closer to RISE174 than to modern Swedes.

Wrong on so many levels. I removed all the outliers, incudling the two British-like outliers(who might be natives afterall unlike the Eastern Euro ones who def are not) and one French/Central Euro-like sample.

Second of all, Swedes have significant amount of post-Viking era Finnic input. But the Swedish average that Tolan(the French user on Anthrogenica who created this map) used is mainly based on Southern and Central Swedes which is why it's still quite close to the Danish average although the distance declines by one point(!! xD) ones the outliers are removed.

[Aren]

How do you know it, were they buried without weapons (or was it determined that they were not warriors)?

Anyway if you remove outliers, then similarity of the remaining ones to modern Swedes declines.

So apparently they were not just some passer-byes but they actually stayed and mixed into the population.

Central and Northern Swedes shift towards Finland and can be modelled very convincingly as Finnish + Norwegian without any Balto-Slavic admixture. Yet, atleast three of the outliers were Eastern Europeans(similar to Ukrainians), but there's no Eastern European admxiture in modern day Sweden so how does that work with your scenario?

[Bellbeaking]

This includes the several outliers?

Edit: Removing the outliers I get this average

https://i.imgur.com/EhWGuFF.png


This high quality post deserves its own thread.