Origins of Germans in Mecklenburg and Brandenburg

[Peterski]

Distribution of ethnic groups around the year 850 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/xqnrWpA.png

Eastward migration of German peasants after 1100 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/9ohrFJT.png

Political expansion of Brandenburg (Askanian Dynasty):

https://i.imgur.com/ZESgx7I.png

=====

The main literary source about those events is Saxom historian, Helmold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmold

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 57 - "Foundation of the city of Lübeck" - about colonization of Wagria:

https://i.imgur.com/PuAHchx.png

"(...) Count Adolf started building the castle of Segeberg and fortified it. Because the land was ravaged, he sent messengers to many regions, namely to Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia and Frisia, with a message that if they needed more land they were free to come with their families, and they would be given a lot of good fertile land, full of fish and game, rich in vast pastures. He also told Holsatians and Sturmarians: 'Aren't you the ones who conquered Slavic land and obtained it through deaths of your brothers and relatives? So why should you settle as the last ones? Be first, start migrating to this desired land, settle it and benefit from its resources' (...). After that call, huge crowds of people from various nations started coming, together with their families and property, to the land of the Wagrians ruled by Adolf, who promised to give them land.

Holsatians were given safe areas to the west of Segeberg, near the Trave river, including the Zuentineveld [modern Bornhöved] fields as well as everything between the river Schwale up to Agrimesov [modern Grimmeisberg] and up to Lake Plön.

The region of Dargun [modern Warder and Ahrensbök/Stoob] was settled by Westphalians.

The region of Utyn [Eutin] was settled by Hollanders.

The region of Süsel [south-east of Eutin] was settled by Frisians.

The region of Plön still remained depopulated for the time being.

Regions of Starogard [Oldenburg] and Lutjenburg as well as other areas along the sea coast were left for farming to the Slavs, who now had to pay rent to Count Adolf (...)".

=====

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 91 - about colonization of Mecklenburg:

https://i.imgur.com/RxlFEjN.png

"Heinrich, Count of Ratzeburg in the land of Polabian Slavs, brought masses of Westphalian settlers, in order for them to settle in the land of the Slavs. And he divided the land between them. And they built churches, and they started paying taxes from their farming income for the Glory of God. And God's deed started to spread throughout the land of the Slavs under Heinrich's reign, and was completed during the reign of his son, Bernard. On the other hand, Holsatians who settled in Wagria after expulsion of local Slavs, were very zealous when it comes to building new churches, and were very hospitable, but they avoided paying taxes. (...)"

=====

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 88 titled "About Albrecht the Bear":

https://i.imgur.com/VNffGNj.png

"At that time Slavic lands were ruled by Margrave Albrecht, also known as the Bear, who - thanks to God's grace - managed to conquer large Slavic territories. He captured entire land of Stodoranians, Brezans and many other tribes living at the Elbe and Havel rivers. And he was crushing those of them who were trying to rebel against his rule. When decimated Slavs started to slowly disappear, Albrecht sent messangers to Utrecht and to lands along the Rhine river and also to those who lived along the ocean's coast and suffered a lot from violent storms of the sea - namely Hollanders, Zealanders and Flemish people - and he brought many settlers from among them, and he settled them within Slavic towns and villages. Thanks to that colonization by foreigners, the Bishopric of Brandenburg and Havelberg increased its strength, because the number of churches and tax income increased. But also southern banks of the Elbe river were at that time colonized by Dutch newcomers, they settled lands around Salzwedel, and Balsemerland [around Stendal and Halberstadt], and Marscinerland [between Arneburg and Werben], with many towns and villages, extending as far as the Bohemian Forest. (...)"

=====

Polish edition of Helmold's chronicle (in PDF):

http://bc.wimbp.lodz.pl/Content/12337/Paplonski_Helmolda_kronika_a.pdf

[Peterski]

So when Germans in Central & Eastern Germany score e.g. "Dutch" or "Belgian" DNA, it is not a mistake - they really came from there.

If they score e.g. "Dutch + Ukrainian", it means they are partly descended from local Wends or Sorbs, and partly from Dutch settlers.

=====

Edit:

About Y-DNA in Saxony-Anhalt in the Early Middle Ages: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275529-Migration-Period-ca-400-650-AD-(or-350-700-AD)-Archaeological-Maps-and-Discussion&p=5761143&viewfull=1#post5761143

[Peterski]

Okay, thread opened. But two rules:

1. No trolling
2. No off-topic

=====

Edit:

I wrote more about Wagria in particular before, here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?254731-Classify-Germans-from-Northern-Germany

According to Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle" ("Chronica Slavorum") after the conquest of Wagria by crusaders, Slavic inhabitants (the tribe of Wagrians) were relocated to a reserve around Oldenburg and Lütjenburg, where a church with sermons in Slavic was established for them. Another church with sermons in German was built in Ratekau.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lütjenburg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratekau

Lütjenburg (Małogród/Lutynia) and Oldenburg (Starogard) areas remained Slavic-inhabited:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldenburg_in_Holstein

Map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Karte_Wagrien.jpg/1600px-Karte_Wagrien.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Karte_Wagrien.jpg/1600px-Karte_Wagrien.jpg

Atlas of Slavic Toponyms in Germany:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?250352-Atlas-of-West-Slavic-Toponyms-in-Germany

Map: https://i.imgur.com/idFh2az.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/idFh2az.jpg

Maps showing ethnic groups of Wagria during the Early Middle Ages:

https://www.academia.edu/25218901/Wagrien_im_Brennpunkt_der_Slawenforschung_The_arch eology_of_the_slavs_in_eastern_Holstein

https://i.imgur.com/3ocM1Gt.png

https://i.imgur.com/EgLDH4g.png

https://i.imgur.com/PwCmsRj.png

[CordedWhelp]

Okay, thread opened. But two rules:

1. No trolling
2. No off-topic

I believe my deep paternal side (the German side) was from Mecklenburg...my father does indeed score some 3 or so percent Eastern Euro on 23andme (he wouldn't really feasibly get it from anywhere else)...plus we are R-M417. I'm sure many in the northeast are indeed partly descent from Sorbian-related Polabians/Obotrites and the like...although I think folks on anthroforums overstate the impact a bit. I wouldn't be utterly shocked if the occasional northeast German with deep roots in the area could be close to western Poles, though.

23 and me also asserts he has ancestry all over the Netherlands...do you think it may be genuine migrations from the Netherlands to N.E Germany? I realise it could be reflecting other lineages, and/or relatives who moved in more recent decades...

Nice thread.

[Blondie]

Okay, thread opened. But two rules:

1. No trolling
2. No off-topic

Every comment is trolling for you which is not german hater and don't agree with you. That's why you deleted this same post 10 minutes ago.

[Peterski]

Every comment is trolling for you which is not german hater and don't agree with you.

I wonder how are my posts supposedly "German-hating" if I only use German sources (such as Helmold von Bosau).

If anything we should argue that Helmold was a Slavic-hating source, because he was describing it from German POV.

Are you some kind of an Ostsiedlung-denier or what?

Do you also deny Magyar migration and Magyarization?

[Peterski]

23 and me also asserts he has ancestry all over the Netherlands...do you think it may be genuine migrations from the Netherlands to N.E Germany?

Yeah I think it is probable.

[Teutone]

"Everything I want is slavic" - the emotional child guide to Peterski's mindset.

[Not a Cop]

My Y comes from Wagria, but it's Germanic in origin however.

[Peterski]

"Everything I want is slavic" - the emotional child guide to Peterski's mindset.

Did you even read the opening post or is your IQ too low to be able to understand written text ???

[CordedWhelp]

Did you even read the opening post or is your IQ too low to be able to understand written text ???

I found their insult to be confusing as well. Haters gonna hate.

Bump. This is an interesting thread.

[Token]

So when Germans in Central & Eastern Germany score e.g. "Dutch" or "Belgian" DNA, it is not a mistake - they really came from there.

If they score e.g. "Dutch + Ukrainian", it means they are partly descended from local Wends or Sorbs, and partly from Dutch settlers.
Now explain to me why East Germans speak Saxon dialects genius.

[Golden Lining]

So when Germans in Central & Eastern Germany score e.g. "Dutch" or "Belgian" DNA, it is not a mistake - they really came from there.

If they score e.g. "Dutch + Ukrainian", it means they are partly descended from local Wends or Sorbs, and partly from Dutch settlers.

You are dumb. When a German mixes with Slav in a two population approx you need two more extreme groups to balance this out.

[Teutone]

Did you even read the opening post or is your IQ too low to be able to understand written text ???

I dont read your shit, waste of time.

[Veslan]

Did you even read the opening post or is your IQ too low to be able to understand written text ???

Germans must have a huge complex of their identity. They desperately want to be "pure" and "Germanic", while in reality only it's Northwestern part (Lower Saxony, Westphalia, Schleswig-Holstein) is Scandinavinan-like Germanic. This doesn't play well with their belief in "pure German blood", that had never existed to begin with.

[Veslan]

I dont read your shit, waste of time.

In shortcut: Brandenburgian Germans are Slavo-Dutch mutts with some Westphalian to it.
This probably gives them their "pure German blood" :rotfl:

[Livin]

Some results from saxony anhalt plot with poles,hungarians and other slavs.

[Golden Lining]

Germans must have a huge complex of their identity. They desperately want to be "pure" and "Germanic", while in reality only it's Northwestern part (Lower Saxony, Westphalia, Schleswig-Holstein) is Scandinavinan-like Germanic. This doesn't play well with their belief in "pure German blood", that had never existed to begin with.

This is just LOL, coming from a Pole who even calls himself "Corded-Beaker mix" :rotfl

[Golden Lining]

In shortcut: Brandenburgian Germans are Slavo-Dutch mutts with some Westphalian to it.
This probably gives them their "pure German blood" :rotfl:

Apparently Dutch and Westphalians aren't Germanic. :picard1:

[Anglojew]

Fascinating. I had no idea about this.

[Peterski]

When a German mixes with Slav in a two population approx you need two more extreme groups to balance this out.

How are they more extreme if some of the Sorbs actually plot with Ukrainians (I can show you one kit number) and some of the Ostsiedlung settlers actually came from the Netherlands? This just reflects actual ancestry.

Moreover, Early Medieval Germans from Bavaria and Swabia also did not plot with modern Germans, but with the Danes and Dutch Frisians:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/45.932/11.350

The Sorbs that don't plot with Ukrainians are usually the ones who are mixed with Germans.

PS:

Did you forget your password to Silver Lining account or what? :)

[Peterski]

Now explain to me why East Germans speak Saxon dialects genius.

Why German-Brazilians like you speak Portuguese? Why African-Americans speak English? Why Bolivians speak Spanish? Language does not always reflect the majority of ancestry.

And by the way, Dutch is just a dialect of Low German as well. You can't call Low German dialects "Saxon dialects", because they are not only Saxon. Map of Low German dialects:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Map_of_the_Low_German_Dialects-crop.png

Of course Saxons (especially Holsatians and Sturmarians) also participated in that Ostsiedlung colonization, but - according to Helmold - Dutch settlers were probably more numerous. Maybe they were preferred because tax avoidance was supposedly less common among them?

=====

What about Argentina? They speak Spanish but Italian ancestry is more common there (Tooting Carmen claimed that at least 50% of Argentinians have at least partially Italian ancestry, but only 1 million of them still speak Italian).

In Mecklenburg, apart from Dutch there is also Danish admixture:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?272658-Lands-under-Danish-rule-by-total-time-period


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwsBLDiqECE

[Peterski]

My Y comes from Wagria, but it's Germanic in origin however.

So originally it most probably comes from Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia, Frisia or Nordalbingia - and it came to Wagria in the 1100s, with Germanic settlers from one of those areas. Or do you think it comes from Pre-Slavic Varini who were assimilated by Slavic Wagrians in the 600s or 700s, and then those Slavs were assimilated again by mentioned above Germanic settlers?

Varini:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warini

Wagrians:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagri

See my updated post about it:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275741-Origins-of-Germans-in-Mecklenburg-and-Brandenburg&p=5759149&viewfull=1#post5759149

[Not a Cop]

So originally it most probably comes from Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia, Frisia or Nordalbingia - and it came to Wagria in the 1100s, with Germanic settlers from one of those areas. Or do you think it comes from Pre-Slavic Varini who were assimilated by Slavic Wagrians in the 600s or 700s, and then those Slavs were assimilated again by mentioned above Germanic settlers?

Varini:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warini

Wagrians:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagri

See my updated post about it:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275741-Origins-of-Germans-in-Mecklenburg-and-Brandenburg&p=5759149&viewfull=1#post5759149

Data is too small to make any conclusions, however so far DF-99 seems to correlate with East-Germanic tribes.

[Peterski]

Data is too small to make any conclusions, however so far DF-99 seems to correlate with East-Germanic tribes.

Interesting, so your "original" ancestors could be the Varini (Varinnae). I also think that my R1b is from Pre-Slavic population (probably Lugians). Here is a map I made with locations of various tribes (many locations are speculative or based on my interpretation, but the map is mostly based on book "Vistula Amne Discreta, Greek and Latin sources to the oldest history of Poland" + other sources):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275529-Migration-Period-ca-400-650-AD-(or-350-700-AD)-Archaeological-Maps-and-Discussion&p=5760941&viewfull=1#post5760941

[Peterski]

Now explain to me why East Germans speak Saxon dialects genius.

I am of the opinion that modern East Germans there, were "created" when Dutch-like (genetically) people mixed with Sorbian-like Slavic inhabitants. What about South Germans? Are you aware that almost all of Early Medieval samples from Bavaria and Swabia - except for the ones with deformed skulls and "Mediterranean" (Non-Celto-Germanic) genetics - cluster with modern Danes and Dutch (especially Dutch Frisians), not with modern Germans (let alone South Germans!).

Why is this the case in your opinion? https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#8/48.273/11.666

In my opinion it could be caused either by population replacement (after Charlemagne's conquest, new settlers from Francia) or mixing with "Celts".

But these "genetic Celts" should be there before, so why didn't we find them among the genotyped Early Medieval samples from Bavaria, Swabia? Surely women with deformed skulls were not Celts, and were not even locals (as strontium isotopes show), but were likely imported Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian/Greek/Italian wifes.

Individuals from Early Medieval South Germany who do not cluster with modern Danes & Dutch, usually plot close to Romanians, Serbs, Italians, Greeks.

=====

It seems that conquest of Pagan Germanic tribes (such as Saxons) by Charlemagne's Empire, was associated with large west>east population movements. We actually have written sources which say about massacres of Saxons and forced deportation of several thousand Saxon families from Nordalbingia to Gaul (Francia).

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Wars#Final_phase

^^^ Saxons got recked! I would not be surprised if more of Saxon DNA survives in modern England, than in original Saxony.

I wouldn't also be surprised if a lot of Gallo-Romans, Latin-speakers, came to Bavaria etc. after Charlemagne, but later language shift to German took place.

My analysis just reflects the observations of many people for many years (questions like "Why German DNA does not show on DNA tests?").

We had a thread about "23andMe German Problem", check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5236-23andme-s-quot-German-Problem-quot&p=104451&viewfull=1#post104451

Of course you can artificially force the algorithm to show German results by applying penalization... but that is "cheating", kind of.

And I explained why many Germans may score Dutch + Slavic instead of German: because they really are Dutch/Danish + Slavic or Dutch/Danish + Celtic. Simple as that.

Even those Early Medieval German genomes from Bavaria and Swabia (Alemanni) were genetically Danish or Dutch (especially Dutch Frisian).

If you think there is "magical continuity" between Bronze Age Tollense and modern East Germans, you are most likely wrong - too many sweeping migrations in-between.

I remember when they discovered that Corded Ware from Eulau were R1a, people were claiming "so modern R1a in Germans is Corded Ware, not Slavic". Turned out to be wrong because subclades are completely different and that R1a from Eulau is pretty much extinct today (except for small pockets in Western Europe).

BTW, Eulau cemetery contains burials of victims of cannibalism - those R1a people were the victims. Explains why this subclade got extinct!

=====

Sure, Western Lower Saxony is pretty close genetically to Denmark and the Netherlands. Original Saxons were similar to Frisians, Danes and Dutch.

[Golden Lining]

How are they more extreme if some of the Sorbs actually plot with Ukrainians (I can show you one kit number) and some of the Ostsiedlung settlers actually came from the Netherlands? This just reflects actual ancestry.

Moreover, Early Medieval Germans from Bavaria and Swabia also did not plot with modern Germans, but with the Danes and Dutch Frisians:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/45.932/11.350

The Sorbs that don't plot with Ukrainians are usually the ones who are mixed with Germans.

As soon as a German is mixed with a Celt, not in equal numbers, you cannot approx him as "German + Celtic" but you must use something more distant from Celtic to arrive in the middle. You should stop taking this to literally.




PS:

Did you forget your password to Silver Lining account or what? :)

That, or maybe I have evolved into something more valuable.

[Veslan]

This is just LOL, coming from a Pole who even calls himself "Corded-Beaker mix" :rotfl

Because this is an anthroforum. Why should I repeat that I am Polish twice? :confused: