Seems that Germany has significant British/Irish like Kelts ancestry

[Dacul]

Simple article from Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/17/a-mans-discovery-of-bones-under-his-pub-could-forever-change-what-we-know-about-the-irish/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f44c7dd36ccc
Some old Irish bones were found in Ireland, pre-Viking and Anglo-Saxon.
The similarity of modern populations to these old Irish bones was calculated.
Most red, means most similar.
Most of Germany has equal genetic distance to those ancient Irish Kelts, as SE England got.
Most Keltic area of German is Bavaria, which is more similar to old Irish Kelts, than SE England.
(most similar to old Irish Kelts bones are Irish people,after Scottish and Welsh people, after, North English and as you move towards SE England, less similarity.
However, most of Germany is on par with SE England,as similarity to ancient Irish Kelts bones :) . Bavaria is even more similar to ancient Irish bones Kelts, than SE England)
(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/03/How-the-Ancient-Bones-Relate-to-Modern-Europeans.png&w=1484

[Dacul]

Show da thread to Teutone :) .

[Grace O'Malley]

These people weren't Celts. They were Bell Beaker and as Irish Bell Beakers like British and Dutch Beakers were Rhenish it would make sense that some Germans still have affinity with these Bell Beakers. I think the area showing the greatest affinity is Thuringia.

https://www.worldatlas.com/img/world-state/thuringia-state-germany.jpg

[Coastal Elite]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture . The whole Celt label is just confusing. It was more linguistic than a racial type.

[Dacul]

These people weren't Celts. They were Bell Beaker and as Irish Bell Beakers like British and Dutch Beakers were Rhenish it would make sense that some Germans still have affinity with these Bell Beakers. I think the area showing the greatest affinity is Thuringia.

https://www.worldatlas.com/img/world-state/thuringia-state-germany.jpg
I said "British/Irish-like Celts". No idea what these people were.
Celts is a generic term as J.R.R Tolkien noticed.
Is not known if these people were speaking protoCeltic or not.
The idea is that compared to some people that were 4k years ago in Ireland, most similar of today population are the Irish, Scots, Welsh,Cornish, people and after some people from Germany.
And after on par N English people and most people of Germany and of (?) Austria?
SE English are less similar than most Germans :) .

[Dacul]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture . The whole Celt label is just confusing. It was more linguistic than a racial type.
Something like Slavs are today :) .
Group of languages and some common cultural things.

[Dacul]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture . The whole Celt label is just confusing. It was more linguistic than a racial type.
Bell Beakers were in Iberia also.
This map does show similarity in France, Low Countries, Belgium, Denmark and SW Norway but less similarity for Iberia.
It does not overlaps very well over BellBeakers.

[Grace O'Malley]

These were the Bell Beakers found on Rathlin Island. They are way before the Celts and all were R1b-L21 which is the majority ydna in Ireland today. Here's the Gedmatch result of one of the Rathlin men.

K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.94
2 Baltic 27.52
3 West_Asian 7.16
4 West_Med 6.48
5 South_Asian 3.40
6 Amerindian 2.20
7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
8 Red_Sea 1.06


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Norwegian @ 5.854991
2 Swedish @ 6.378155
3 Danish @ 6.435699
4 North_Dutch @ 6.943228
5 North_German @ 7.111557
6 Irish @ 8.086287
7 Orcadian @ 8.527667
8 West_Scottish @ 8.822106
9 Southeast_English @ 10.981000
10 Southwest_English @ 11.587136
11 North_Swedish @ 12.113091
12 South_Dutch @ 14.523604
13 West_German @ 15.031170
14 East_German @ 17.276731
15 Austrian @ 17.773823
16 Southwest_Finnish @ 21.165777
17 French @ 21.226280
18 Hungarian @ 21.971560
19 South_Polish @ 25.624912
20 La_Brana-1 @ 26.125484

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +50% Swedish @ 5.763251


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Swedish +25% Swedish +25% West_Scottish @ 5.718463


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.654887
2 Danish + Irish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.673533
3 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.695946
4 Irish + Swedish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.708336
5 Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.714194
6 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.717242
7 Swedish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.718463
8 Irish + North_German + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.726860
9 Danish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.727204
10 Danish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.735286
11 North_German + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.738239
12 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.744429
13 Danish + Danish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.755604
14 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.760739
15 Danish + Danish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.763251
16 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.771631
17 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.772011
18 Danish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.800724
19 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.815938
20 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.816245

K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_German @ 8.570560
2 Danish @ 9.199459
3 Irish @ 9.273491
4 West_Scottish @ 9.632721
5 Southeast_English @ 10.713849
6 North_Dutch @ 10.812980
7 Orcadian @ 12.363866
8 Southwest_English @ 12.692083
9 South_Dutch @ 13.515372
10 Norwegian @ 13.539064
11 Swedish @ 13.852389
12 North_Swedish @ 14.337133
13 West_Norwegian @ 14.958194
14 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.931392
15 East_German @ 16.537271
16 West_German @ 16.948147
17 Austrian @ 19.163883
18 French @ 19.201525
19 Finnish @ 20.197750
20 La_Brana-1 @ 21.321207

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_German @ 8.413251


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% La_Brana-1 +25% West_Scottish @ 7.791201


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.791089
2 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 7.791201
3 La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.810342
4 Irish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 7.810678
5 Irish + Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.922435
6 Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 7.980188
7 La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.996135
8 Irish + Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish @ 8.002673
9 Danish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 8.004673
10 Danish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 8.007087
11 Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish @ 8.020887
12 Danish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.028337
13 Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 8.034504
14 Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.055216
15 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German @ 8.064316
16 Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 8.069336
17 La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.069387
18 North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.080923
19 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English @ 8.087984
20 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Orcadian @ 8.140745

[Dacul]

So these people from Wasghington post article were found on Rathlin island?
Or these people from Rathlin islands are other people than those from Wasghington post article?
I find hard to believe that people with no North Sea admixture are clustering most close to the today Norwegians.
In fact this is a wrong calculus, those Bell Beakers are mostly North Atlantic plus Baltic so they actually have few common genetics to old Vikings.
Vikings had mostly North Sea and some Baltic.
Vikings got North Atlantic from mixing with ProtoCelts I think.
Earliest written evidence of spoken Celtic in Ireland is 700 BC.
So maybe, 2000 yrs ago were already protoIrish protoCelts, in Ireland.
Sure, Celts is linguistic and cultural.
Bell Beakers looks only Cultural, not with common genetics.

[Dacul]

To add, currently is considered Bell Beakers expanded Eastwards into the lands of Corded Ware people.
To me it seems Corded Ware are protoGermanics and protoBaltoSlavs.
And Bell Beakers is a culture not a race of people.

[Grace O'Malley]

To add, currently is considered Bell Beakers expanded Eastwards into the lands of Corded Ware people.
To me it seems Corded Ware are protoGermanics and protoBaltoSlavs.
And Bell Beakers is a culture not a race of people.

Irish today have got most of their genetics from the Bell Beakers from the Bronze Age. If you look at models using G25 Irish people get very high Beaker scores.

This study is what the Washington Post was referencing.


Three Bronze Age individuals from Rathlin Island (2026–1534 cal BC), including one high coverage (10.5×) genome, showed substantial Steppe genetic heritage indicating that the European population upheavals of the third millennium manifested all of the way from southern Siberia to the western ocean. This turnover invites the possibility of accompanying introduction of Indo-European, perhaps early Celtic, language. Irish Bronze Age haplotypic similarity is strongest within modern Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations, and several important genetic variants that today show maximal or very high frequencies in Ireland appear at this horizon. These include those coding for lactase persistence, blue eye color, Y chromosome R1b haplotypes, and the hemochromatosis C282Y allele; to our knowledge, the first detection of a known Mendelian disease variant in prehistory. These findings together suggest the establishment of central attributes of the Irish genome 4,000 y ago.

https://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368

[Dacul]

Irish today have got most of their genetics from the Bell Beakers from the Bronze Age. If you look at models using G25 Irish people get very high Beaker scores.

This study is what the Washington Post was referencing.



https://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368
I am not receiving notifications when you are quoting my posts.
You are the only member for which I am not receiving notifications when quoting my posts.
This is weird.

Maybe these Bell Beaker culture did not had such an uniform genetics.
I also think that those people living in Ireland and Britain gave most of today Britain genetics.
So I was founding weird that the Norwegians were scoring more close to those Ireland Bell Beakers, than the Irish and than the Brits.

[Peterski]

Something like Slavs are today :) .
Group of languages and some common cultural things.

I don't think so.

This study found that Slavic-speaking populations share more DNA in common with each other than Germanic-speaking populations share with each other:

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

This is most probably related to the fact that Slavic expansion was the most recent large expansion in Europe's history.

Germanic expansion was slightly older (so less shared DNA survived to our times), and Celtic the oldest of these three.

Also Germanic migrants moved into densely inhabited and urbanized Roman areas.

For example when Goths moved to Spain, they were just few dozen thousand people, invading a society of few million people.

That could not have very significant genetic impact, they "melted" into their subjects.

By contrast Slavic expansion affected areas largely depopulated (often abandoned by previous tribes before Slavs moved in).