Yes We Camp (Spanish protests)

[Comte Arnau]

They compare Camps with Berlusconi. :D

--
Spaniards Take to Streets Before Vote

Source: The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/europe/20iht-spain20.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB)

MADRID — With elections set for Sunday in Spain in more than 8,000 municipalities and 13 of its 17 regions, thousands of people, most of them young, have taken to the streets in Madrid, Barcelona and other large cities this week, calling for an end to suspected longstanding corruption among established parties. Fueling the demonstrators’ anger is the perceived failure by politicians to alleviate the hardships imposed on a struggling population by a jobless rate of 21 percent.

At sit-ins, street protests and on social media networks, the protesters’ message is that of an alternative campaign that could eclipse that of the established parties and result in a decline in voter turnout on Sunday, from 63 percent four years ago.

http://noticias.terra.es/2011/mundo/0518/fotos-media/espana-crisis-protestas-miles-de-jovenes-se-concentran-en-la-puerta-del-sol-al-grito-de-no-pasaran$0x381-L.jpg

Some of the youth groups have made the fight against corruption their battle cry, like NoLesVotes, or “Don’t vote for them,” whose manifesto starts with the warning that “corruption in Spain has reached alarming levels.” The group recently published a Web site map pinpointing localities where more than 100 politicians seeking election were also under judicial investigation.

Other protesters are fielding alternative candidates, like the Pirate Party in Catalonia, founded 18 months ago, which is hoping to win about 7,000 votes across Catalan municipalities. One of its candidates in Barcelona, the 27-year-old Francesc Parelleda, said political corruption was a consequence of a “political system in which there is simply zero transparency and democracy within the main parties.”

José M. de Areilza, dean of the IE Law School in Madrid, said, “I don’t think that political corruption is necessarily worse in Spain than in other European countries, but I do think that the economic crisis is now generating a lot more anger and resentment here toward politicians.”

On Sunday, Francisco Camps is expected to be re-elected as head of the regional government of Valencia, which includes the third-largest city in Spain and some of the most popular Spanish resorts.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RQNWm9qMdB4/Sbx6jQ97NcI/AAAAAAAABBI/DEnWvNQsV4w/s400/Francisco-Camps.gif

By the end of the year, however, Mr. Camps is also likely to be in court facing bribery charges, as part of a vast corruption investigation, dubbed the Gürtel case, that has also targeted several other politicians from the main center-right political force, the Popular Party.

Mr. Camps was charged in February for allegedly receiving tailor-made suits in return for granting public contracts, with further possible financial irregularities still under investigation. Nine other politicians standing for the Popular Party on Sunday in Valencia are being investigated or have been charged with fraud. Mr. Camps and his fellow candidates deny any wrongdoing.

For now, the corruption allegations have not hindered Mr. Camps’s re-election bid, according to the latest opinion polls. Like Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister who is engulfed in scandal, Mr. Camps has portrayed himself as the victim of a witch hunt by political opponents, judges and left-leaning media. Asked in December to comment on some of the allegations, he said that “nobody should believe Soviet-style propaganda against everything that has been achieved in Valencia.”

In fact, “many people in Valencia now talk about the Berlusconization of our society,” said Ferrán Bono, a Socialist lawmaker who represents Valencia in the national Parliament in Madrid. “Some people have seen so many political scandals that they just treat them as banal, but I think many also genuinely believe the conspiracy theory that Camps has been so actively promoting.”

The Gürtel investigation, which also targets some Popular Party politicians in Madrid, involves more than €120 million, or about $170 million, of public funds misspent by politicians in return for alleged kickbacks, according to a summary of the charges presented by the prosecution this year. Its alleged ringleader, Francisco Correa, is in jail awaiting trial.

But corruption investigations have not spared other main Spanish political parties, starting with the governing Socialists of Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. Socialist politicians stand accused in several of the property-related fraud inquiries that have mushroomed amid a collapse in the Spanish construction sector. Since April, the Socialist party in Andalusia, the largest region in Spain, has also been shaken by an inquiry into whether party officials provided fictitious early-retirement packages to friends and family members.

Mr. de Areilza, the law school dean, said: “We have built a democracy with political parties somehow disconnected from society, who have accumulated a lot of internal powers and have not been regulated in very important areas like their financing — and unfortunately they are also the ones who are in charge of pushing through any reform of the system.”

Mr. Camps’s anticipated victory in Valencia is expected to be part of a countrywide sweep by the Popular Party at the expense of the governing Socialists, whose popularity has plummeted because of the economic crisis.

Whatever the outcome Sunday, Mr. Zapatero announced in April that he would not seek a third term in office, paving the way for the selection of a new Socialist leader ahead of the general election, expected in March 2012.

In their campaigns, many regional and municipal politicians sought to distance themselves from the policies of Mr. Zapatero’s central government in Madrid in order to bolster their own prospects. In the case of Mr. Camps in Valencia, “the message has been that everything that works in Valencia is his doing while everything that is wrong, like a jobless rate that is four percentage points above the national average, is the fault of Zapatero,” said Mr. Bono, the Socialist lawmaker.

The reverse, however, has not been true, with national party leaders careful not to antagonize powerful regional politicians who could influence their chances next March.

For much of last year, Mariano Rajoy, the Popular Party’s national leader, refused to confirm his support for Mr. Camps because of his ties to the Gürtel corruption scandal. On Tuesday, however, Mr. Rajoy went to Valencia to join Mr. Camps at the city bullring. “You are a great president,” Mr. Rajoy told him in front of a cheering audience. “The people vote for you because they love you.”

[Aces High]

Yes we camp..."Keep Britain bona".

LMMSSseKCmM

[Comte Arnau]

Spreading worldwide?

http://www.thetechnoant.info/campmap/

[Cato]

The best way to deal with protesting scum.

http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/129041.jpg
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/131637.jpg

Burn them out.

[Magister Eckhart]

The best way to deal with protesting scum.

http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/129041.jpg
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/131637.jpg

Burn them out.

While I also consider protesting to be vulgar, I can't say I'm not in sympathy with the Spanish protesters here. Corruption and treason are rampant among all current European governments as much as in American government, and anger against these governments, and desire to bring them down, is in my eyes quite righteous.

[SwordoftheVistula]

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/4/campingitza128650391144378218.jpg

[Cato]

While I also consider protesting to be vulgar, I can't say I'm not in sympathy with the Spanish protesters here. Corruption and treason are rampant among all current European governments as much as in American government, and anger against these governments, and desire to bring them down, is in my eyes quite righteous.

I'm pretty certain that these aren't Spanish Carlist patriots out on protest and I doubt that they're chanting Dios, patria, rey!

[Don]

LOmh3jcV28g

[Don]

The best way to deal with protesting scum.

Burn them out.

Then you will hit me and many more like me because I am there as I was there even before the ÉXITO of this movement and I will be there.
As is my duty.

[Cato]

Then you will hit me and many more like me because I am there and I was there even before the success of this movement.

As is my duty.

It's nothing against you my friend. :)

There are always honest people in protests, but I've largely come to mistrust protests in general due to the way in which they tend to be set up (i.e. funded and organized by leftist groups that wish to put forth a supposedly populist message).

I don't, and won't, protest; I just refuse to participate. The entire system is rotten, in America and in Europe. The only thing that can solve anything is the one thing that no one wants:

http://images.wikia.com/cybernations/images/6/68/FourHorseman_war.jpg

[Don]

There are always honest people in protests, but I've largely come to mistrust protests in general due to the way in which they tend to be set up (i.e. funded and organized by leftist groups that wish to put forth a supposedly populist message).

Spain is different. Remember that.

[Cato]

Spain is different. Remember that.

Oh, I haven't forgotten this at all. :) So is America.

But, I've lately reached a point in my life where I can only think of the 2nd Psalm:

"Why are the nations in an uproar?"

Why indeed.

[Comte Arnau]

I doubt that they're chanting Dios, patria, rey!


And you're right. They're rather chanting more important things, such as justicia, dignidad, futuro.

[antonio]

And you're right. They're rather chanting more important things, such as justicia, dignidad, futuro.

Less trancendental and equally vague ones.:cool:

Ps. Unless, of course, they're just trying to save their own skins. I've got screwed too in certain moments, for example when my relative laziness started to impair my academic results to the point of spoiling my curriculum, but I had to manage consequences (IT almost subemployment) alone. That's life.

[Cato]

And you're right. They're rather chanting more important things, such as justicia, dignidad, futuro.

President Reagan: The future doesn’t belong to the fainthearted; it belongs to the brave.

Most people are too fainthearted to face the future. The current world order is collapsing all around us, call it the wrath of God or just plain old human stupidity.

There've been plenty of protests in America too, with people blabbering about free healthcare, their pensions, mememe, etc. Do you know who usually sets these things up? Communists, globalists, marxists, progressives, socialists.. Whatever the hell they're called. These people love to agitate, especially the young people.

So Zapatero goes out on his ear, which seems likely, but the question is: what'll follow him? Some kind of conservative, nationalist administration that'll do sensible things like kick the foreigners out and get the economy back into shape by curbing back spending? Attempts have been made to do this sort of thing in the U.S. to little avail.

[Cato]

There've been plenty of protests in America too, with people blabbering about free healthcare, their pensions, mememe, etc. Do you know who usually sets these things up? Communists, globalists, marxists, progressives, socialists.. Whatever the hell they're called. These people love to agitate, especially the young people.

Why do you think Hitler ran them out of Germany? Or why the U.S. had the anti-communist Senator McCarthy? Etc. Infiltration has been a tool of the commies since just about Day One.

Infiltrate. Organize. Agitate. Take over.

That's what I'm concerned about in this case, actually in the case of all of this protesting going on around the world in general. It's too damn convienient.

[Magister Eckhart]

I'm pretty certain that these aren't Spanish Carlist patriots out on protest and I doubt that they're chanting Dios, patria, rey!

Some are. These movements are essentially trans-Atlantic versions of the Tea Party movement, which runs the gamut from leftist libertarians to Christian Dominionists to members of the American Nazi Party - it has a broad appeal.

[Cato]

Some are. These movements are essentially trans-Atlantic versions of the Tea Party movement, which runs the gamut from leftist libertarians to Christian Dominionists to members of the American Nazi Party - it has a broad appeal.

That's the problem, borad appeal. This is why I deny the Tea Party, which claims to support the Constitution but.. When you talk to some Tea Party people their views about the Constitution are varied.

I'm a strict Constitutionalist. I regard this document as the most sacred document on earth, regarding it as "America's Bible" and the reason for my country's existence: to spread the idea of responsible constitutionalism around the world.

This is why I regard such protests as a castle built on sand; there's no deep foundations. Non-American constitutions come and go but there's only one, the Real Deal™ that's stood the test of time.

vlxjkp4s6Nk

[Lábaru]

Me temo que esta vez amigo Don no puedo apoyarte :(

Los indignados piden puertas abiertas a la inmigración, hacen suyo el “No a la guerra” y piden recuperar la Memoria Histórica


- Abolición de la Ley de extranjería (puertas abiertas )
- Reducción del gasto militar. Como movimiento pacifista creemos en el “No a la guerra”.
- Recuperación de la Memoria Histórica y de los principios fundadores de la lucha por la Democracia en nuestro Estado.

http://madrid.tomalaplaza.net/2011/05/20/propuestas-20-mayo/

La abolición de la Ley de Extranjería representa puertas abiertas para todos los inmigrantes que quieran entrar en España. Sorprende que, aún hoy, movimientos autodenominados de ‘prioridad nacional’ mantengan su apoyo a estas protestas.
El “No a la guerra”, esconde un mensaje claro de la izquierda que ya capitalizó el descontento por la incursión española en Irak pero que calla a voz en grito sobre nuestra presencia en Libia y otros escenarios donde nuestras tropas “se la juegan” a diario.
La “recuperación de la Memoria Histórica” es otro de los arietes de la izquierda. ¿Qué vamos a contarles sobre esto?
Alertamos de la utilización de “Estado” para evitar la palabra España en su comunicado. Además, la ausencia total de banderas españolas evidencian el escoramiento anti español de las concentraciones.

[Don]

Los indignados piden puertas abiertas a la inmigración, hacen suyo el “No a la guerra” y piden recuperar la Memoria Histórica


Vamos jodidos, a estas alturas, si vamos a dar voz a lo que escriban 4 payasos sobre lo que escriben sus 2 payasos que no representan a NADIE.

En una democracia participativa, que es el verdadero objetivo compartido, esas enfermedades, y muchas otras, ya sabes perfectamente como serían despachadas por el pueblo español en las urnas de referendums populares.


"Tened paciencia Sancho que aventuras se ofrecerán donde no solamente os pueda hacer gobernador."

.

Ésto no es un cambio ni mucho menos.

Es la introducción al cambio.

El planteamiento de la Batalla. Y es mejor de lo que esperaba, sinceramente.

Hemos tenido mucha suerte.

[Magister Eckhart]

And you're right. They're rather chanting more important things, such as justicia, dignidad, futuro.

No good Spaniard, and I'm sure several of them here will agree with me, would put anything above Dios y patria. Not that justicia, dignidad, futuro are insignificant, but I hardly think them of ultimate, incontestable importance, especially since they are implicitly contained in Dios. I say this not as unique to Spaniards, either -- rather, Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, doubly so pro deo.

[antonio]

Ésto no es un cambio ni mucho menos.

Es la introducción al cambio.

El planteamiento de la Batalla. Y es mejor de lo que esperaba, sinceramente.

Hemos tenido mucha suerte.

I agree there're many good will people on it. But that fact does not negate some serious evidences:

1. It was started as an Extreme-left spin-off (without all the external symbology).

2. That kernel, that "elite" (including f.e. Complutense chapel assaulters) is trying to gain control of the unwared masses which join them, acting simply as mere legitimizers by the force of numbers. Including many just attending for the sake of curiosity or historical sense, as myself assisted at No-a-la-guerra main event or visited Atocha station at the very 11-M.

As conclusion, "by their fruits, you will know them", just by reading most of the proposals (that Labaru, Falkata and myself) had been exposed here...I guess my points are clearly demostrated.

[Lábaru]

¿Cómo puedes, compañero Don, apoyar este movimiento? un movimiento que se supone es para España y los españoles y no se ve una sola bandera de España, evitan decir el nombre ya que prefieren decir estado.....

Don ¿cómo puedes apoyar un movimiento dónde no se ve una sola pancarta anti inmigracción? mientras toda Europa se rebela contra ella los españoles, nuestro movimiento, pide la disolución de las fronteras.

Don, respeto a mucha gente de este movimiento que cómo tú va con la mejor voluntad pero no es el movimiento que merece tu apoyo, ayer mismo vi a dos argentinos y a un alemán hacer de portavoces de este movimiento, de las masas de españoles.

[antonio]

ayer mismo vi a dos argentinos y a un alemán hacer de portavoces de este movimiento, de las masas de españoles.

En definitiva, tres que han venido con el reclamo del buen rollo y el solecito a intentar vivir dignamente sin trabajar demasiado en cosas que a nadie importan y se han dado de bruces con una de las crisis más gordas del mundo...ya están tardando en irse por donde han llegado.

Ps. Y no nos olvidemos que son extranjeros violando una resolución de la Junta Electoral Central, a qué coño espera Rubalcaba y/o la Policía para deternerlos y expulsarlos. :mad:

[Don]

Doblado.

[Don]

A estas alturas no hace falta hablar sobre mis ideologías, principios y valores, pues los lectores los conocen de sobra.

Tampoco sobre los de la población española, ¿verdad?

Yo me pregunto ¿Cómo no podéis apoyar un movimiento que en su esencia y raíz defiende desde el primer día el futuro de los españoles, la democracia participativa y el ataque directo a los mayores ENEMIGOS de los Españoles?

Otorgarles voz y adjudicarles el hartazgo y entropía creada por tantos a los 4 payasos parásitos que en todos los movimientos acaban apareciendo es un insulto, sin duda, para la gran mayoría de los españoles que quieren cambiar este país para mejor.

Y ésto es una democracia más participativa y una refundación de ésta.

¿Acaso tenemos algo que temer? Nosotros no, todo lo contrario.

Deberíais reiros, como yo, de los payasos (porque todos sabemos que es lo que son, en todos los sentidos) que son los que están movilizando y sirviendo de soporte en gran medida para la población española, que será la gran y última beneficiada de cualquier movimiento de este tipo. Y será ella la que acabe opinando decidiendo, le disguste a quien le disguste.

Normal que el payaso, al final, de tanto aguantarse, haga payasadas.

Pero son eso, payasadas.

Cuando la población española vote, tú y todos aquí sabemos qué votarán respecto al tema inmigrante, por poner un ejemplo.

En un principio, doy fé que la presencia inmigrante era NULA.
En un principio la esencia del movimiento popular era nacional, enfocada a los españoles, a nuestro futuro, a nuestras cosas en común, al ninguneo de la dicotomía izquierdas y derechas (como siempre he defendido), clave para mantener a la población dividida y jugar al gato y al ratón.

A medida que los payasos (Y esclavos) del movimiento han ido perdiendo la capacidad de aguantarse sin hacer payasadas, se ha ido perdiendo fuelle y con él, han ido acercándose, tímidamente, elementos que TODOS sabíamos desde el primer momento que eventualmente intentarían parasitar el movimiento, apropiarse de él. Bien, han dado la cara... (se acercaron inmigrantes, cómo no, propuestas de memorias histórica y cosas que a los españoles NOS LA SUDA)

Sí, se mostraron ilusamente Ante toda España. Pusieron y están poniendo cara, tal como esperaba, al usurpador y al parásito que intentaría robar el esfuerzo colectivo.
:)

Son usurpadores, no propietarios. No les concedáis ese beneficio porque insulta la inteligencia de uno considerar que las características de este movimiento desde el primer día, pertenecen a estos payasos o al inmigrante o al pringao que sale a hacer un discurso y comer la olla a otros pringados que se dejan. Que son la chusma, la purria del movimiento que ellos mismos se han retratado pues todos sabemos lo que pensamos en casa.

Esta chusma de payasos y demás parásitos nunca podrían haber conseguido nada así. Solos. Otorgarles el mérito, como digo, es un insulto a la inteligencia y a la variedad de gente que, sin hacer mucho ruido ni discursuchos, ha participado y ha decidido que ésto tenga éxito.

Y esa es la mayoría de la gente y esos ya sabes cómo piensan. NO quieren que las cosas sigan así. Como yo....

Pocas cosas más divertidas que ver payasos nacionales, moros o sudacas asomando el pico tímidamente para abrir la boca... esperando sacar tajada y parasitar ante toda españa tirando para un lado codicioso los esfuerzos del pueblo español en movimiento que defiende mayor capacidad de decisión de él, del pueblo Español.

Tamaña muestra de necedad no puede más que causarme un tremendo regocijo al constatar, una vez más, lo gilipollas que son, tirando piedras sobre su propio tejado, el sistema político de traidores a los españoles del que ellos son uno más de sus productos, y como tales, eventualmente serán objetivo prioritario, junto con el tema de los bancos, del pueblo español en votación soberana.

Desencaminados y perdidos van aquellos que le ponen a la cara del pueblo español, de los amigos, familiares, compañeros de barra de bar, vecinos... la de un llamado perroflauta o la de un sudaca... joder, qué favor les hacen y qué insulto al sentido común y la realidad.
Más o menos lo mismo que cuando el tonto de turno postea una foto de un moro y dice: mira, los españoles.

QUE NO, QUE NO NOS REPRESENTAN.

¿No es verdad?

¡No subestimeis al pueblo español, COJONES!

[Lábaru]

Yo entiendo que se quiere defender que es un movimiento apolítico que simplemente expone problemas de España que deben ser solucionados pero ¿acaso no es la inmigracción el mayor de nuestros problemas? ¿la mayor amenaza? no es un partido político, es un problema nacional y merecía ser mencionado pero no lo han hecho y por eso no les he apoyado, podría haber aguantado que no haya una bandera de España aunque no podría haberlo entendido ¿acaso la bandera de España defiende algún partido político? ¿alguna ideología salvo la del pueblo español? nadie diría eso salvo un independentista que quiere disgregar el país, pero bueno, podría haber tolerado que no apareciera para regocijo de ellos, pero no que no haya una sola propuesta de basta ya a inmigrantes cuando toda Europa está pidiéndolo a gritos.

[Don]

Yo entiendo que se quiere defender que es un movimiento apolítico que simplemente expone problemas de España que deben ser solucionados pero ¿acaso no es la inmigracción el mayor de nuestros problemas? ¿la mayor amenaza? .

Es uno de los brazos del pulpo diabólico que nos lleva jodiendo tanto tiempo y más nos joderá. Tiene más, los medios de comunicación y su máquina de crear opiniones públicas, el sistema político y electoral... brazos de un mismo cuerpo manejado por un cerebro que nos detesta. Cualquier plante de cara por parte del pueblo español a cualquiera de sus brazos es bien recibido.

La finalidad siempre es la misma: nuestro bien, el de los españoles. Punto.


no es un partido político, es un problema nacional y merecía ser mencionado pero no lo han hecho y por eso no les he apoyado, podría haber aguantado que no haya una bandera de España aunque no podría haberlo entendido ¿acaso la bandera de España defiende algún partido político? ¿alguna ideología salvo la del pueblo español? nadie diría eso salvo un independentista que quiere disgregar el país, pero bueno, podría haber tolerado que no apareciera para regocijo de ellos, pero no que no haya una sola propuesta de basta ya a inmigrantes cuando toda Europa está pidiéndolo a gritos.


Paciencia, todo a su momento. Ésto no es un cambio, sino el planteamiento de uno, un toque de atención, que a primera instancia supone que los españoles no somos tan mansos como cabía esperar y eso SIEMPRE es una noticia positiva. Tampoco pidamos peras al olmo, que ésto es España y aún lastramos mucho complejo. Paciencia. Mucha paciencia que todo llega.
Y ésto ha sido un acelerón que nadie esperaba y bienvenidísimo sea.
Soñar con que nadie hubiera parasitado el movimiento o intentado apropiarse de él es propio de esos que creen en los mundos de yupi, no obstante, felicísimo y sorprendido de que haya sido tan vago y tan lento este inevitable hecho.

Respecto a las banderas, Jamás hubiera esperado en mi vida ver una plaza Cataluña de Barcelona o en cualquier otra de las vascongadas miles de personas SIN UNA SOLA BANDERA ni catalana ni vasca. ¿Acaso no sois conscientes de la magitud de este fenómeno a día de hoy en estas regiones? ¿Dais más importancia a que 3 extranjeros de mierda se pongan a gritar en un altavoz durante unos minutos? Vamos, no me jodas.

Éste es un avance tal, el germen de un cambio tan positivo, que minimizarlo o atribuírselo a los 4 payasos parásitos es cometer tremendo error.

Yo lo que me pregunto es cómo te sorprende que me alegre tanto de estos eventos. ¿Cómo es posible que 4 rastas y 2 crestas mal puestas os tapen los elementos más positivos que son los más importantes y más potentes del movimiento 15-M (que éste es el día)?.

[Lábaru]

En las banderas vas a tener razón ya que no había tampoco nacionalistas y no lo había pensado aunque sigue sin quedarme claro del todo, en lo de los inmigrantes, dices que poco a poco, vale, eso espero yo también.

De todas maneras yo apoyaré las protestas después de las elecciones al igual que las hubiera apoyado hace cuatro años y hace un año también, pero una semana antes de las elecciones no ya que me parecen intencionadas para amortiguar el impacto de la derecha, no me trago que salga una semana antes una protesta donde los derrotados izquierdistas, encendedores de la mecha y la gasolina del hastiado pueblo español, quieran decirnos que ahora el problema no es del gobierno socialista sino de todos los partidos, cuando gobernaba Aznar los problemas eran suyos, el Prestige, Irak ect... cuando gobierna el PSOE si salen las cosas mal, es un malfuncionamiento de la democracia y un problema de todos los partidos.

Veamos si de verdad aguantan una semana las protestas, es más yo creo que con un 21% de paro las protestas deberían ser continuas y diarias, veamos también si esto evoluciona como dices hacia un comienzo de un pueblo español inconformista, yo tengo mis dudas, pero bueno, deseo equivocarme.

[antonio]

Esta noche comprobaremos los resultados. En todo caso, cambiar PSOE por PP no me parece especialmente novedoso ni ilusionante, cabe recordar que ya ocuparon ocho años el gobierno de la nación, sobre los cuales no admito discusión sobre estas cuantas verdades:

1) No tocaron una sola coma de las leyes de extranjería, gracias a eso tenemos a todos los delincuentes extranjeros entre nosotros así como a millones de nacionalizados tras dos años de residencia legal. Maravilloso.

2) No tocaron una sola coma de la ley del aborto. No es que esté en contra, pero es algo que debieran tener en cuenta todos los que tratan a los sociatas de asesinos de niños.

3) Lo más grave: dejaron desarrollarse a la burbuja inmobiliaria, con la consiguiente estafa legal de millones de españoles y la consiguiente generación de puestos de trabajo de futuro ilusorio...para más INRI de inmigrantes que, a día de hoy, nos estamos comiendo con patatas con nuestros impuestos.

3) La educación siguió siendo un cachondeo.

Etc, etc, etc...

Pd. "nolesvotes" vale, será todo un éxito entre los que no les iban a votar de todas formas. :coffee:

[Cato]

No good Spaniard, and I'm sure several of them here will agree with me, would put anything above Dios y patria. Not that justicia, dignidad, futuro are insignificant, but I hardly think them of ultimate, incontestable importance, especially since they are implicitly contained in Dios. I say this not as unique to Spaniards, either -- rather, Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, doubly so pro deo.

I would place La Constitucion de los Estados Unidos above even Dios, for to truly believe in the Constitution one would also have to accept the existence of the Deity.

The Constitution should be the "Bible" of any good American as it's the one thing that uniquely identifies America in the world and which is our one contribution, an unequalled contribution, to the world.

What're the Spanish protesters so upset about? Unemployment? Underemployment? Government corruption? I can understand these grievances. They also exist in America. I don't protest anything
because, despite being cynical and mistrustful, I still have faith in the American idea. Not in predatory capitalism and global empire-building, neither of which are consistent with what Washington exemplified- or even a Spaniard like de Galvez, who fought no less tirelessly for American independence than Washington.

What is the American idea? In a nutshell, government belongs not to the rulers but to the sovereign people. The people are the true rulers; the elected officials are the servants. I think it's an idea that still has yet to truly catch on in Europe. I hope it does; I think that Spain has the potential to be a fine constitutional republic in the same way that early America was. Why do I say this? In many ways Spain is still coming to grips with its past; the Bourbons are long gone, Franco is long gone. The Spanish people want to exert their independence from the ruling class.

The trouble is, as is the case in Europe in general, which way will they go? You'll find little to be gained in socialism. Socialism is gutting America; what's left of the Constitution, that old document which made America great, has been gutted. President Reagan once said something along the lines of "people will accept socialism under the name of liberalism." The reason Europe's countries are starting to fall like dominos lies in the fact that the people in them still want to cling to a collapsing system: pseudo-socialism. Too many people there are used to having a free lunch when in reality it's TANSTAAFL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain't_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch

I hope you guys can get your things sorted out. Really I do; of the European countries my fondest goodwill exists for Espanya.

[Comte Arnau]

I think that Spain has the potential to be a fine constitutional republic in the same way that early America was. Why do I say this? In many ways Spain is still coming to grips with its past; the Bourbons are long gone, Franco is long gone.

Republic is associated by most Spaniards with the left, and fear of secessionism or at least strong federalism. The First and Second Spanish Republics were not models and paved the way to a brutal war. That is why many of those who know the role of the monarchy to keep Spain united prefer the continuation of it, even if they aren't convinced monarchists at all. As it's often said, Spaniards are not monarchists, but juancarlists.

[Cato]

Republic is associated by most Spaniards with the left, and fear of secessionism or at least strong federalism. The First and Second Spanish Republics were not models and paved the way to a brutal war. That is why many of those who know the role of the monarchy to keep Spain united prefer the continuation of it, even if they aren't convinced monarchists at all. As it's often said, Spaniards are not monarchists, but juancarlists.

As I've said "the" model to look to for a republican form of government is early America. Let me quote President Reagan, the last President to speak openly and eloquently of the Constitution and the Founding Fathers:

In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.

This was when he took office in 1981; currency inflation of the U.S. dollar was at an all-time high, employment was also at an all-time high, the American people were losing faith in the country.

Spain, and many other countries in Europe, are in the same position now as America was in 1981. Hell America is in the same position again.

The trouble is, European protesters simply want to exchange one set of rulers for another. This is unworkable. Unless you have a solid foundation to believe in (a strong Constitution supported by a strong electorate) what good is any government "of, by and for the people?" :confused:

People all around the world believe that government is the answer when it isn't.

[Ibericus]

Republic is associated by most Spaniards with the left, and fear of secessionism or at least strong federalism. The First and Second Spanish Republics were not models and paved the way to a brutal war. That is why many of those who know the role of the monarchy to keep Spain united prefer the continuation of it, even if they aren't convinced monarchists at all. As it's often said, Spaniards are not monarchists, but juancarlists.
Oddly enough, the Republic was a right-winged government

[Comte Arnau]

Oddly enough, the Republic was a right-winged government

Notice I'm talking about current associations. Are there any right-winged parties or organizations today claiming for the Third Spanish Republic? I'd say that 90% of those who claim for it are those who still think a federal Spain is possible.

[Cato]

Notice I'm talking about current associations. Are there any right-winged parties or organizations today claiming for the Third Spanish Republic? I'd say that 90% of those who claim for it are those who still think a federal Spain is possible.

America's current incarnation began in 1865 when the federal government, the Union, defeated the states of the south (i.e. the government waging war upon the states, even if the rebelling states had formed a rival nation called the Confederacy). Till this time the Union had been just that: a political union of states, each of which jealously guarded its sovereign rights. So, to defeat a supposed rebellion the federal government launched a revolution which overturned the ideals of the Founding Fathers.

I strongly mistrust federalism. I don't blame Mr. Lincoln, but I don't curse Mr. Davis either. Each was acting according to his own particular beliefs.

[Comte Arnau]

America's current incarnation began in 1865 when the federal government, the Union, defeated the states of the south (i.e. the government waging war upon the states, even if the rebelling states had formed a rival nation called the Confederacy). Till this time the Union had been just that: a political union of states, each of which jealously guarded its sovereign rights. So, to defeat a supposed rebellion the federal government launched a revolution which overturned the ideals of the Founding Fathers.

I strongly mistrust federalism. I don't blame Mr. Lincoln, but I don't curse Mr. Davis either. Each was acting according to his own particular beliefs.

I can understand your mistrust because both situations and contexts are different. In a plurinational country, like Switzerland, a well-structured federalism can be a valid system to form a sense of belonging to the same country in a balanced way. Even the UK recognizes the fact of being constituted by several countries united into one Kingdom, and distinguishes between the national pride of each country and the national pride of the whole, to a point that people from everywhere in the world know about the existence of Scotland and Wales.

This does not happen in Spain, seen as a mononational country by the world. And I do not blame anyone, because that is what Spain has tried to be since the Bourbons, another version of France. If it has admitted its diversity in the Constitution -even with euphemisms like 'nationalities' instead of 'nations'- that's been only because of the efforts of Catalans and Basques (and Galicians to a lesser extent). Spain cannot be federal and Spain cannot be centralist. How long will the tension last? I don't know. But history has proved that events can develop faster than expected, in one way or another.

[Ibericus]

Notice I'm talking about current associations. Are there any right-winged parties or organizations today claiming for the Third Spanish Republic?
Not necessarily a republic, but neither a monarchy. Yes, there are.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Why do you think Hitler ran them out of Germany? Or why the U.S. had the anti-communist Senator McCarthy? Etc. Infiltration has been a tool of the commies since just about Day One.

Infiltrate. Organize. Agitate. Take over.

That's what I'm concerned about in this case, actually in the case of all of this protesting going on around the world in general. It's too damn convienient.

Pretty sure National Socialists were considered leftists by the Germans back then. Additionally, the Nazis took over using the same four pillars you outlined.

[Cato]

I can understand your mistrust because both situations and contexts are different. In a plurinational country, like Switzerland, a well-structured federalism can be a valid system to form a sense of belonging to the same country in a balanced way. Even the UK recognizes the fact of being constituted by several countries united into one Kingdom, and distinguishes between the national pride of each country and the national pride of the whole, to a point that people from everywhere in the world know about the existence of Scotland and Wales.

This does not happen in Spain, seen as a mononational country by the world. And I do not blame anyone, because that is what Spain has tried to be since the Bourbons, another version of France. If it has admitted its diversity in the Constitution -even with euphemisms like 'nationalities' instead of 'nations'- that's been only because of the efforts of Catalans and Basques (and Galicians to a lesser extent). Spain cannot be federal and Spain cannot be centralist. How long will the tension last? I don't know. But history has proved that events can develop faster than expected, in one way or another.

America's case is different, since we our bound together by secular law and not say ethnic or linguistic or religious ties. Even so, the lessons can be learned. There used to be one largely homogenous ethnicity (with minorites like negros and Amerindians), the Anglo or some derivation of the Anglo (Anglo-Scots, Anglo-Irish and even Anglo-Iberian in Texas and thereabouts). So, same language, same background.

The states were the principal components of the old Union prior to Lincoln. As I've said I don't blame Lincoln; he wanted to win the American Civil War and re-integrate the southern states quickly and peacefully. Sadly an assassin's bullet ended his life and there's been this thought on my mind that our Civil War never really ended. :(

In Spain's case, the situation is similar. I've talked to Spaniards who feel like I do, more loyal to a particular region (New York in my case) than to the central government or the nation at large. I love America but I love New York more.

[Comte Arnau]

Not necessarily a republic, but neither a monarchy. Yes, there are.

They must be quite minoritarian.

But again, I think many right-winged people would support a Republic was it not by associations they don't like. What's more, I'm personally convinced that, the day Catalonia and the Basque Country achieved independence, Spain would become a Republic on the very next month.

[Comte Arnau]

America's case is different, since we our bound together by secular law and not say ethnic or linguistic or religious ties. Even so, the lessons can be learned. There used to be one largely homogenous ethnicity (with minorites like negros and Amerindians), the Anglo or some derivation of the Anglo (Anglo-Scots, Anglo-Irish and even Anglo-Iberian in Texas and thereabouts). So, same language, same background.

That's my point. You can't really compare situations because there was and is an (Anglo-)American ethnicity. You can't say there is a Spanish ethnicity unless by this you mean a Castilian one.


In Spain's case, the situation is similar. I've talked to Spaniards who feel like I do, more loyal to a particular region (New York in my case) than to the central government or the nation at large. I love America but I love New York more.

Everybody can always identify better with more reduced entities. And yet, many of that current feeling of loyalty of Spaniards to their regions is pretty much a result of Catalan and Basque loyalty to our own nations/folks, as many of those regions took profit from the claims of the 'separatists' to implement them in their own -now decentralized- regions. They won't accept or know it, but the facts are there.

[Ibericus]

They must be quite minoritarian.

But again, I think many right-winged people would support a Republic was it not by associations they don't like. What's more, I'm personally convinced that, the day Catalonia and the Basque Country achieved independence, Spain would become a Republic on the very next month.
In Italy the fascists were republican, think of Repubblica Sociale, here fascists and falangists as far as I know are not monarchist but neither republican.

[Cato]

That's my point. You can't really compare situations because there was and is an (Anglo-)American ethnicity. You can't say there is a Spanish ethnicity unless by this you mean a Castilian one.

Everybody can always identify better with more reduced entities. And yet, many of that current feeling of loyalty of Spaniards to their regions is pretty much a result of Catalan and Basque loyalty to our own nations/folks, as many of those regions took profit from the claims of the 'separatists' to implement them in their own -now decentralized- regions. They won't accept or know it, but the facts are there.

What about the people of Asturias or Andalusia? :confused: Or are they merely transplanted Castilians? :confused:

[Gaztelu]

What about the people of Asturias or Andalusia? :confused: Or are they merely transplanted Castilians? :confused:

Andalusians are transplanted Castilians. Asturians are Asturians.

By the way, Extremaduran and Leonese peoples are transplanted Asturians.

The Portuguese are transplanted Galicians.

Here's a somewhat useful map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Linguistic_map_Southwestern_Europe.gif

[Cato]

Andalusians are transplanted Castilians. Asturians are Asturians. Extremaduran and Leonese peoples are transplanted Asturians.

I will have to investigate!

[Comte Arnau]

What about the people of Asturias or Andalusia? :confused: Or are they merely transplanted Castilians? :confused:

The history and language of Galicians, Asturians and Castilians go hand by hand, being very close among each other. 'Southern Galicians' became Portuguese and in that sense acquired a better sense of being something else, their language following a different way. 'Southern Asturians', let's call them Leonese, united with Castilians early in history. Asturians have preserved their identity better, and the Asturian language can still be heard here and there, specially in the villages. Andalusians are, all in all, 'Southern Castilians', and Novísima Castilla was indeed one of the first names for their territory. Much of the current feeling of being 'Andalusian' springs from the modern Andalusian regionalism of Blas de Infante.

[Gaztelu]

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