Did the Vikings have African slaves?

[Guapo]

this movie says they did.

s7kf-nV_E5Y

[Rosenrot]

I read they had slaved the native tribes of scandinavean. Something close to skimos. They don't had horned helms, that's for sure.

[Gaztelu]

I read they had slaved the native tribes of scandinavean. Something close to skimos.

I believe you mean the Sámi.

Pallantides isn't going to be happy.

[Rosenrot]

I believe you mean the Sámi.

Pallantides isn't going to be happy.

Yes, the skraelings!

[Karl der Große]

Hahaha more funny than the Black Heimdall! I doubt they had it they couldn't afford it by distance and by number of sailors.

[Gaztelu]

Yes, the skraelings!

Never mind.

[Peasant]

It's all wrong. The Vikings were black and the white devils were the slaves. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPDa-NSKMag#t=5m00s)

[Rosenrot]

Never mind.

with pleasure.

[Comte Arnau]

The first Afro-American!!! :D

[Guapo]

I believe you mean the Sámi.

Pallantides isn't going to be happy.

Sámi are the niggers of Norge?

[Pallantides]

I read they had slaved the native tribes of scandinavean. Something close to skimos. They don't had horned helms, that's for sure.

The Paleolithic and Mesolithic native Scandinavians were most likely simillar to Cro-Magnon, not Inuits, also the Saami of Northern Scandinavia are also predominatly European with rather minor Siberian admixture and they are very different from Inuits.


Yes, the skraelings!
The Saami were refered to as Finns by the Norse, Skraeling was only used to describe Inuits and Native Americans the encountered in Greenland and North America. The Saami were taxed but they were not enslaved, the relationship between the Norse and Saami was rather peaceful during the Viking era.

[Rochefaton]

Weren't Vikings involved in the Baltic slave trade? I thought they used and sold Slavs.

[Pallantides]

I have not seen a single Norwegian, Swede or Dane at 23andMe with any African admixture, so if they had African slaves they didn't have any impact on the Scandinavian genepool.



Though Norway did have trade connection with the Tunisians in the High Middle Ages and their envoys visited the court of Håkon Håkonsson, but I assume this thread is only about Sub Saharan Africans and not North Africans.

[Barreldriver]

Dunno about Norsemen enslaving Africans, but Bede mentions Vandals who engaged in conquest and rapine in Africa (not raping in the modern sense, but rather rapine in the sense of plundering and conquest) while driving out Catholic bishops from Africa those bishops fleeing to Sardinia.

Norsemen who went "wicing" did enter into Northern Africa, but I've not read anything that confirms the trafficking of slaves, just that the region was subject to frequent short raids, kind of glorified "hit and runs" unlike the activities that occurred in the British Isle's that had more of a noticeable impact in the North and East of England.

[Grumpy Cat]

No, they had mostly Celts as slaves.

[Rosenrot]

Pallantides: you're the nordic, then i'll not discute.

[Pallantides]

No, they had mostly Celts as slaves.

Also Baltic and Slavic slaves.

[Cato]

The Vikings had all kinds of slaves, big shit. If they had Africans (i.e. niggas) as slaves, it's not like they had them out picking cotton alongside the fjords.

[Comte Arnau]

Well, going by Coon's überblond Berber maps, the Vikings must have had more than one North African girl as a slave, if only for one night. :D

[The Journeyman]

I have not seen a single Norwegian, Swede or Dane at 23andMe with any African admixture, so if they had African slaves they didn't have any impact on the Scandinavian genepool.

Idunno, when I look at people like Garm I have to wonder...

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/54228621/Ulver+Garm.jpg

[Pallantides]

Idunno, when I look at people like Garm I have to wonder...

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/54228621/Ulver+Garm.jpg

Not many Norwegians look like him though.... a rare case.

[Grumpy Cat]

Idunno, when I look at people like Garm I have to wonder...

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/54228621/Ulver+Garm.jpg

He actually looks like a good friend of mine, who is Amerindian.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/77063_1604418464141_1046502268_31683123_588129_n.j pg

[Aces High]

this movie says they did.

s7kf-nV_E5Y

The movie depicts vikings with horns in their helmets too.......so i dont think too much emphasis was placed on reality.

[Magister Eckhart]

I have not seen a single Norwegian, Swede or Dane at 23andMe with any African admixture, so if they had African slaves they didn't have any impact on the Scandinavian genepool.

Though Norway did have trade connection with the Tunisians in the High Middle Ages and their envoys visited the court of Håkon Håkonsson, but I assume this thread is only about Sub Saharan Africans and not North Africans.


No, they had mostly Celts as slaves.


Also Baltic and Slavic slaves.

The Vikings kept slaves of almost every group they ever came in contact with. The lack of influence on the gene pool, though, is not restricted to Negroids-- the predominance of the Nordic type throughout Scandinavia is evidence that breeding with slaves was minimal if it happened at all.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

While everyone seem to glorify vikings, I imagine them as primitive drunk savages who could do impossible things only because of their permanent drunk condition. Ive heard stamina of drunk people is way higher, nervous system is affected and slow so you dont feel any pain etc. That's my theory on vikings. :thumb001:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080725063433/uncyclopedia/images/e/e2/Anne_elk.jpg

[Aces High]

While everyone seem to glorify vikings, I imagine them as primitive drunk savages who could do impossible things only because of their permanent drunk condition.

You mean like the red army..?

[Magister Eckhart]

While everyone seem to glorify vikings, I imagine them as primitive drunk savages who could do impossible things only because of their permanent drunk condition. Ive heard stamina of drunk people is way higher, nervous system is affected and slow so you dont feel any pain etc. That's my theory on vikings. :thumb001:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080725063433/uncyclopedia/images/e/e2/Anne_elk.jpg

Not far from my own. They were the dregs of Nordic society, a bunch of drunken brawlers and brigands who committed acts of rapine and savagery against unarmed innocents. There is nothing glorious about the practise of "going a-Viking". The glory of the Norse was won on even battlefields against powerful, armed foes, not in acts of rape, pillage, and destruction against defenceless women and monks.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

You mean like the red army..?

well, vikings were the first who come up with this.

[Don Brick]

You mean like the red army..?

Legacy of Rurik. ;)

[Aces High]

well, vikings were the first who come up with this.

Yet the Russians cling to the concept like a cheap suit clings onto a fat sweaty man.
"niet wodka...niet war"

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

Yet the Russians cling to the concept like a cheap suit clings onto a fat sweaty man.
"niet wodka...niet war"


I would love to see how you act in those conditions they were, brave internet warrior. ;)

[Psychonaut]

...the predominance of the Nordic type throughout Scandinavia is evidence that breeding with slaves was minimal if it happened at all.

No way, dude. The Irish genetic input (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24564) in Iceland and Greenland is evidence that they sure did boink some Paddies.

[Magister Eckhart]

No way, dude. The Irish genetic input (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24564) in Iceland and Greenland is evidence that they sure did boink some Paddies.

In Iceland, perhaps, but not on the Scandinavian mainland. Also, don't forget that Irish genetic input doesn't necessarily mean breeding with slaves; the Irish did actually inter-marry with the Norsemen independently and formed alliances with Norse chiefs and kings. Norse presence on the island was quite significant.

[Dario Argento]

He actually looks like a good friend of mine, who is Amerindian.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/77063_1604418464141_1046502268_31683123_588129_n.j pg

He doesn't even look 5% Amerindian. He looks Scottish or something like that.

[Peasant]

Idunno, when I look at people like Garm I have to wonder...

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/54228621/Ulver+Garm.jpg

He looks completely NW European? :mmmm:

[Aces High]

I would love to see how you act in those conditions

Like an Englishman,not some alcoholic lout.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

Like an Englishman,not some alcoholic lout.

Those alcocohlic louts are one of the reasons you remain englishman and don't walk under Germans right now. :coffee: At least have some decency to admit that and be respectful. Thank you.

[W. R.]

While everyone seem to glorify vikings, I imagine them as primitive drunk savages who could do impossible things only because of their permanent drunk condition. Ive heard stamina of drunk people is way higher, nervous system is affected and slow so you dont feel any pain etc. That's my theory on vikings.Whatever works.
You mean like the red army..?People's Comissar's 100 grams of vodka daily - not enough to be in the permanent drunk condition.

[Aces High]

People's Comissar's 100 grams[/I] of vodka daily - not enough to be in the permanent drunk condition.

I imagine they didnt want them to be totally drunk...i mean how could they rape all those German women and young girls if they were too far gone.
Fucking pigs.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

I imagine they didnt want them to be totally drunk...i mean how could they rape all those German women and young girls if they were too far gone.
Fucking pigs.

Oh boy, I see you are on the mission here. Well, what goes around comes around. Welcome to reality.

[The Ripper]

Like an Englishman,not some alcoholic lout.

LOLOLOLOL

Bdsw9hdFJdA

[Aces High]

LOLOLOLOL

Bdsw9hdFJdA

Being a finn,i bet you dream of being in a situation like that.........instead of a finnish party....three blokes and a carrier bag full of kestral lager.:rolleyes:

[The Ripper]

Being a finn,i bet you dream of being in a situation like that.........instead of a finnish party....three blokes and a carrier bag full of kestral lager.:rolleyes:

Yeah, I dream of being surrounded by obnoxiously drunk English tourists, like all continentals of sound mind.

http://dosbeerigos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/borat-not-jb.jpg

[Aces High]

Yeah, I dream of being surrounded by obnoxiously drunk English tourists, like all continentals of sound mind.


I didnt say that, i said i imagine your dream is to get invited to a an English party like that....instead of sitting inside your drab pine house listening to death metal with three mates (all with the obligatory neckbeard) drinking cheapo lager and watching the ice hockey.......youre just jealous that we Brits know how to rip the arse out of it.;)

[The Ripper]

I didnt say that, i said i imagine your dream is to get invited to a an English party like that....instead of sitting inside your drab pine house listening to death metal with three mates (all with the obligatory neckbeard) drinking cheapo lager and watching the ice hockey.......youre just jealous that we Brits know how to rip the arse out of it.;)

You can imagine me in any setting you wish. Has very little relevance to reality. :rolleyes:

[Heretik]

we Brits know how to rip the arse

:ranger: :ranger:

[W. R.]

I imagine they didnt want them to be totally drunk...i mean how could they rape all those German women and young girls if they were too far gone.
Fucking pigs.Pigs? Vikings of the XX century!


http://www.trashanime.ru/img_articles/pervyj_otrjad_first_squad_the_moment_of_truth.jpg

[Treffie]

Not heard this one, but the story of Guðríður Símonardóttir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%C3%B0r%C3%AD%C3%B0ur_S%C3%ADmonard%C3%B3ttir) is a very interesting one. :thumb001:

[Aces High]

Pigs? Vikings of the XX century!


Hardly,the vikings didnt ship entire poulations off to the salt mines,nor did they advocate rape,looting and mass extermination as viable weapon of war.

The Russians have a lot to answer for.

[Aces High]

Those alcocohlic louts are one of the reasons you remain englishman and don't walk under Germans right now.

Dont give me all that shit.

We were on our own whilst you fuckers had a pact with nazi Germany.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

The Russians have a lot to answer for.


So as Brits, Germans, Italians, Japanese and many many others.

[Bloodeagle]

Africans, I dunno, but they did enjoy enslaving the Slavs.


The Persian traveller Ibn Rustah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Rustah) described how Swedish Vikings, the Varangians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians) or Rus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_Khaganate), terrorized and enslaved the Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe#cite_note-13) So many Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs) were enslaved for so many centuries that the very name 'slave' derived from their name, not only in English and other European languages.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe#cite_note-Arabs_and_Slave_Trade-11)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe#cite_note-14)

[Karl der Große]

Africans, I dunno, but they did enjoy enslaving the Slavs.

The origin of term 'Slav' is still controversial. And I doubt the Vikings had many slaves at all, theirs skills were more about plunder and trade than the ability to enslave people.

[Magister Eckhart]

Africans, I dunno, but they did enjoy enslaving the Slavs.

Actually, aren't the two words related?


Slav (n.)
late 14c., Sclave, from M.L. Sclavus (c.800), from Byzantine Gk. Sklabos (c.580), from O.C.S. Sloveninu "a Slav," probably related to slovo "word, speech," which suggests the name originally meant member of a speech community (cf. O.C.S. Nemici "Germans," related to nemu "dumb;" and cf. O.E. þeode, which meant both "race" and "language"). Identical with the -slav in personal names (e.g. Rus. Miroslav, lit. "peaceful fame;" Mstislav, lit. "vengeful fame;" Jaroslav, lit. "famed for fury;" Czech Bohuslav, lit. "God's glory;" and cf. Wenceslas). Spelled Slave c.1788-1866, influenced by French and Ger. Slave.


slave (n.)
late 13c., "person who is the property of another," from O.Fr. esclave (13c.), from M.L. Sclavus "slave" (cf. It. schiavo, Fr. esclave, Sp. esclavo), originally "Slav" (see Slav), so called because of the many Slavs sold into slavery by conquering peoples.


This sense development arose in the consequence of the wars waged by Otto the Great and his successors against the Slavs, a great number of whom they took captive and sold into slavery. [Klein]

O.E. Wealh "Briton" also began to be used in the sense of "serf, slave" c.850; and Skt. dasa-, which can mean "slave," is apparently connected to dasyu- "pre-Aryan inhabitant of India." More common O.E. words for slave were þeow (related to þeowian "to serve") and þræl (see thrall). The Slavic words for "slave" (Rus. rab, Serbo-Croatian rob, O.C.S. rabu) are from O.Slav. *orbu, from the PIE base *orbh- (also source of orphan) the ground sense of which seems to be "thing that changes allegiance" (in the case of the slave, from himself to his master). The Slavic word is also the source of robot. Applied to devices from 1904, especially those which are controlled by others (cf. slave jib in sailing, similarly of locomotives, flash bulbs, amplifiers). slave-driver is attested from 1807. In U.S. history, slavocracy "the political dominance of slave-owners" is attested from 1840.

[Bloodeagle]

The origin of term 'Slav' is still controversial. And I doubt the Vikings had many slaves at all, theirs skills were more about plunder and trade than the ability to enslave people.

You underestimate the extent of their trade, slaves being one of the most valuable commodities of the day.


In the Viking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking) era starting in approximately AD 793, the Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen) raiders often captured and enslaved militarily weaker peoples they encountered. In the Nordic countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries) the slaves were called thralls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrall) (Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse): Þræll).[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#cite_note-21) The thralls were mostly from Western Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe), among them many Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks), Anglo-Saxons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons), and Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts). Many Irish slaves participated in the colonization of Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland).[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#cite_note-22) There is evidence of German, Baltic, Slavic and Latin slaves as well. The slave trade was one of the pillars of Norse commerce during the 6th through 11th centuries.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#cite_note-23) The Persian traveller Ibn Rustah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Rustah) described how Swedish Vikings, the Varangians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians) or Rus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_Khaganate), terrorized and enslaved the Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs). The slave raids came to an end when Christianity became dominant throughout Scandinavia. The bishops held that a Christian could not morally own another Christian. The thrall system was finally abolished in the mid-14th century in Scandinavia.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#cite_note-24)

[Karl der Große]

You underestimate the extent of their trade, slaves being one of the most valuable commodities of the day.

Obviously, they were not too numerous so it makes me skeptical of mythological image of 'furious Vikings' enslaved other people en masse.

[Bloodeagle]

Obviously, they were not too numerous so it makes me skeptical of mythological image of 'furious Vikings' enslaved other people en masse.

This is subjective to what one considers, (en-mass). When have their been enough Scandinavians, to do anything en-mass? However, these raiders did seem to have a dramatic affect on the personalities of their neighbors, and lets not forget that there is historical reference to their participation in the slave trade.

[Karl der Große]

I don't deny it (the slave trade in Viking era) but the image of angry Vikings enslaved and bulldozing ten thousands of people historically do not convince me.

[The Ripper]

Dont give me all that shit.

We were on our own whilst you fuckers had a pact with nazi Germany.

And then you helped the Soviets enslave half of Europe. With the Yanks. :)

[Pallantides]

Many people understimate and belittle Scandinavia and show a great lack of knowledge about our history. Denmark,Sweden and even Norway have had empires, but this was mostly after the "viking" era(Norway's golden age was in the middle ages), Denmark-Norway and Sweden were empires with many colonial holdings and both participated in slave trade, of course this was long after the viking area... so somewhat irrelevant to the topic but still worth knowing.

[Magister Eckhart]

Many people understimate and belittle Scandinavia and show a great lack of knowledge about our history. Denmark,Sweden and even Norway have had empires, but this was mostly after the "viking" era(Norway's golden age was in the middle ages), Denmark-Norway and Sweden were empires with many colonial holdings and both participated in slave trade, of course this was long after the viking area... so somewhat irrelevant to the topic but still worth knowing.

In large part it gets ignored because the Viking age is "cooler", and serves to fulfil the escapist fantasies of neo-pagan children who want to play-act as "heathen heroes". The great achievements of the Christian Swedes under Gustav Adolf the Great would of course hold no interest for these people, but since they are the vulgar mass who popularises the Viking Age, credit is not given where it is due.

If Psy and his crowd ever win out in the heathen community, I think you'll see all this "Viking Age" nonsense fade out as more intelligent people take the cultural helm. Of course, that's the "IF" statement-- the reality is that the vulgar mob will always dictate the popular conception of history, and whatever tickles their philistine fancy will be remembered while equally or more important history is relegated to the dusty and poorly lit basements of academic inquiry.

[Pallantides]

On the subject of Christian kings, the first monarch to participate in the Crusades was the Norwegian King Sigurd I Magnusson


Sigurd I Magnusson (c. 1090 – 26 March 1130), also known as Sigurd the Crusader (Old Norse: Sigurðr Jórsalafari, Norwegian: Sigurd Jorsalfare), was King of Norway from 1103 to 1130. His rule, together with his brother Eystein I of Norway (until Eystein died in 1123), has been regarded by historians as a golden age for the medieval Kingdom of Norway. He is otherwise famous for the crusade he led to the Holy Land as the first European king, starting in 1107 and lasting a few years, which gave him his eponym "the Crusader".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd_I_of_Norway
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd_Jorsalfare
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Magnussonnenes_saga_3_-_G._Munthe.jpg/800px-Magnussonnenes_saga_3_-_G._Munthe.jpg

[Loddfafner]

I don't give a fuck if Vikings had African slaves. I would be more concerned if Africans had Viking slaves.

[Sikeliot]

I'm not reading the whole thread but I'd be seriously surprised if the Vikings even knew black Africans existed.

[Magister Eckhart]

I'm not reading the whole thread but I'd be seriously surprised if the Vikings even knew black Africans existed.

Prepare to be amazed!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bl%C3%A1ma%C3%B0ur

The encounters had by the Old Norse on their travels not only with Moors but also with the dark-skinned people they encountered fighting for the Byzantines brought words like blámaður into the Norse lexicon, where it was well-established before the formation of any contemporary Scandinavian tongue.

So they were very much aware of black Africans, and I maintain it's sheer historical ignorance to think that they didn't keep at least some Negro slaves.

I think this whole assumption of "if slaves are kept, they must breed with the masters" is utter and complete nonsense - there is nothing that demands that the native population must breed with their slaves - look at Sparta as a good example of where that never happened. With how many there were, a Negro slave could go his entire life never having bred - after all, breeding slaves to produce more slaves was not a practise common in Medieval slavery.

[Barreldriver]

On the subject of Christian kings, the first monarch to participate in the Crusades was the Norwegian King Sigurd I Magnusson


Speaking of Scandinavian Crusaders. didn't the Templars and such have very strong ties to leadership of Scandinavian churches?

There was a program on the History Channel which stated that Templars fled to Scotland and Scandinavia after the order was dissolved and from there speculations were made about later "adventures".

[Äike]

Also Baltic and Slavic slaves.

I never realized that the Baltic tribes were that weak back then.

Anyway, I know that the the Estonian Vikings had a (future) Norwegian king as a slave for some time. We probably also had Baltic slaves, if the Scandinavians had them.

[Magister Eckhart]

I never realized that the Baltic tribes were that weak back then.

Anyway, I know that the the Estonian Vikings had a (future) Norwegian king as a slave for some time. We probably also had Baltic slaves, if the Scandinavians had them.

Having slaves of a given people doesn't speak to their racial weakness; after all, there were Scandinavians who were themselves taken as slaves after battle. I'm sure there were Estonian slaves, and I would not be surprised a bit if the Livonians at large kept Lithuanian and Prussian slaves.

[Peyrol]

Guys, the only ones in history have been a very large number of enslaved blacks were english/americans and portugueses for the colonies.
The rest is fanta-history.

[Magister Eckhart]

Guys, the only ones in history have been a very large number of enslaved blacks were english/americans and portugueses for the colonies.
The rest is fanta-history.

Having Negro slaves does not require a large and systematised capitalist slave-trade. There is no logical reason to suppose that the Vikings did not have some Negro slaves.

[Peasant]

More likely North Africans than Sub-Saharan Africans.

[Wyn]

I'm sure there were Estonian slaves

Estonians and Latvians were quite heavily enslaved by the German 'Baltic Barons.' I posted an excerpt from a book on here not long ago, in which the author described how they were sold "like cattle." I think most people don't realise how widely accepted slavery and serfdom were until very recently.

[Äike]

Having slaves of a given people doesn't speak to their racial weakness; after all, there were Scandinavians who were themselves taken as slaves

Indeed, the Estonian vikings raided the Scandinavian coastline for hundreds of years. When the Scandinavians had accepted Christianity, already mentioning the Estonian vikings brought fear upon the Swedes and Danes living on the coast.


I'm sure there were Estonian slaves

I doubt that, the Estonians were too strong of a military force since 400AD and after 600AD, I seriously doubt that anyone was capable of going to Estonia and winning a battle. The Estonians were so strong, that they raided neighboring regions instead.

[Peyrol]

Having Negro slaves does not require a large and systematised capitalist slave-trade. There is no logical reason to suppose that the Vikings did not have some Negro slaves.

Have wikings some bases in Guinea or Kongo? I don't believe. Ad they either haven't trades with berbers slaveholders.

[Äike]

Estonians and Latvians were quite heavily enslaved by the German 'Baltic Barons.' I posted an excerpt from a book on here not long ago, in which the author described how they were sold "like cattle." I think most people don't realise how widely accepted slavery and serfdom were until very recently.

We are talking about 0-1000AD here, you are talking about the 17th century.

By the way, serfs or not, but the average Briton was mentally impaired, when compared to the average Estonian "serf".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengt_Gottfried_Forselius


By the late 17th century, there is evidence that up to 70% of the adult population of Estonia were literate, as compared to 30% - 40% in contemporary Great Britain.

Pathetic.

[Peasant]

By mentally impaired you imply retardation, and not uneducated.... and what does that have to do with anything?


Have wikings some bases in Guinea or Kongo? I don't believe. Ad they either haven't trades with berbers slaveholders.

The Vikings raided parts of North Africa as far as I know. If there was any black slaves that close to the coast I don't see why they couldn't have taken any? Anyone know anything about slavery in North Africa?

[Äike]

By mentally impaired you imply retardation, and not uneducated....

If Wyn can be a chauvinist, then I can also be one.

The fact is, Estonian "serfs" were like Einsteins, when compared to the average Britons in the 17th century.

[Bloodeagle]

The fact is, Estonian "serfs" were like Einsteins, when compared to the average Britons in the 17th century.

I am not doubting you, but do you have any references to these claims?

[Peasant]

If Wyn can be a chauvinist, then I can also be one.

The fact is, Estonian "serfs" were like Einsteins, when compared to the average Britons in the 17th century.

How is it relevant to the fact they were sold ? Did you get offended? :D

[Wyn]

We are talking about 0-1000AD here, you are talking about the 17th century.

By the way, serfs or not, but the average Briton was mentally impaired, when compared to the average Estonian "serf".

I imagine a literate serf is quite useful for menial tasks. Not that 17th century literacy rates are anything to be proud of, if your people exist in a state of serfdom. Though perhaps 'serfdom' is something of an inaccuracy, as 'serf' implies - at the very least - some sense of dignity and person-hood, which appears to have been denied of the Estonians and Latvians by their German lords:


For more than five hundred years ... German-speaking merchants and artisans dominated political, economic, and cultural life in Tallinn (known by Germans as Reval) and Riga. German lords (seigneurs - "Baltic barons") ruled the manors, where they held Estonians and Latvians as serfs - sometimes breaking up families and selling them like cattle. Germans wrote off Estonians, Latvians, and other subjected peoples as undeutsche - "not-German," and perhaps not fully human.

Source. (http://books.google.com/books?id=RL1EQI3LnCIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22the+baltic+transformed%22&hl=en&ei=k6-5TZi-A8al8QORnbE2&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

But if the author uses the term 'serf' then I suppose we should too.


Pathetic.

I wouldn't call having a low literacy rate in the 1600s 'pathetic.' In fact I would've assumed Britain's literacy rate was even lower than that. Though it is amusing that you chose to omit the 'Citation needed' tag from your copy-and-paste job.

[Äike]

I am not doubting you, but do you have any references to these claims?

You should ask the person who wrote the Wikipedia article about Bengt Gottfried Forselius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengt_Gottfried_Forselius).

Forselius is seen as a "hero" of some sorts, as he founded the Estonian education system and is responsible for the absolute majority of the Estonians being literate in the 17th century, while the majority of the Europeans were illiterate and didn't know what a book was.

There are monuments dedicated to Bengt Gottfried Forselius and so on.


I imagine a literate serf is quite useful for menial tasks. Not that 17th century literacy rates are anything to be proud of, if your people exist in a state of serfdom. Though perhaps 'serfdom' is something of an inaccuracy, as 'serf' implies - at the very least - some sense of dignity and person-hood, which appears to have been denied of the Estonians and Latvians by their German lords:

The difference is that the Estonians liberated Latvia from Baltic-German occupation in 1919, by destroying the Baltic-German army and marching to Riga.

The Latvians were always too weak to do anything, but the Estonians repaid for their "serfdom" in 1919, while the Latvians were a different bunch of people. This probably has to do with the Latvians being Balts and the Estonians being out of completely different (Finnic) stock.

[Wyn]

while the majority of the Europeans were illiterate and didn't know what a book was.

I think most Europeans knew what books were, Karl. ;) For example, we here have a poetic tradition dating back to Caedmon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedmon) (b. c 650s), a historiographical tradition dating back to Bede (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede) (c 670), a history of methodical science dating back to Roger Bacon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bacon) (c 1214) and a philosophical tradition dating back to Roger Bacon, John Duns Scotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus) (c 1265) and William of Ockham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham) (c 1288). So whilst we weren't always all literate, when we were, we put it to good use! ;)


The difference is that the Estonians liberated Latvia from Baltic-German occupation in 1919, by destroying the Baltic-German army and marching to Riga.

Ah, that explains why Eriks is so grateful to you. :D


The Latvians were always too weak to do anything, but the Estonians repaid for their "serfdom" in 1919, while the Latvians were a different bunch of people.

Good. No people should be reduced to serfdom.


This probably has to do with the Latvians being Balts and the Estonians being out of completely different (Finnic) stock.

Possibly, aye.

[Äike]

I think most Europeans knew what books were, Karl. ;)

In the 17th century, most Europeans were illiterate peasants, while most Estonians were literate peasants.


Ah, that explains why Eriks is so grateful to you. :D

lol, could be so. If it wasn't for the Estonians, Latvia would have been occupied by Germany or the USSR in 1920, not 1940.

[Aces High]

And then you helped the Soviets enslave half of Europe. With the Yanks. :)

Freeing half of Europe in the process....you cant have it all.:)