Medieval Hungarian 1224-1264 AD

[Peterski]

I uploaded Medieval Hungarian DA199 from Arkus (1224-1264 AD) to GEDmatch Genesis:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#12/47.5386/21.0464

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41586-018-0094-2/MediaObjects/41586_2018_94_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

"Radiocarbon dates have revealed that the skeleton from Arkus (DA199) was buried in medieval times."

https://i.imgur.com/iZOVwQr.png

=====

I wonder if it was a pre-Mongol Invasion or a post-Mongol Invasion sample?

Kit number - MB4181131

The sample was quite different than typical modern Hungarians, apparently:

Eurogenes K15. Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 27.86
2 Atlantic 18.95
3 West_Med 17.94
4 Baltic 13.10
5 East_Med 8.18
6 West_Asian 6.58
7 Eastern_Euro 5.05
8 Siberian 1.43

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French @ 9.924540
2 West_German @ 10.864012
3 South_Dutch @ 12.425678
4 Spanish_Galicia @ 12.654717
5 East_German @ 13.927590
6 Hungarian @ 14.200819
7 Portuguese @ 14.390987
8 Serbian @ 14.656580
9 Spanish_Cataluna @ 14.809558
10 Austrian @ 15.900934
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 16.077736
12 North_Italian @ 16.091932
13 Southwest_English @ 16.525103
14 Romanian @ 16.840759
15 Spanish_Extremadura @ 16.932692
16 North_German @ 17.360882
17 Spanish_Murcia @ 17.565674
18 Southeast_English @ 18.130503
19 Moldavian @ 18.551817
20 Spanish_Cantabria @ 18.824863

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% North_Italian +50% Swedish @ 7.378637

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +25% Romanian +25% Sardinian @ 5.831265

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.256300
2 Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.356653
3 Romanian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.442481
4 Hungarian + Sardinian + Swedish + West_German @ 5.456114
5 Bulgarian + Sardinian + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.463472
6 Bulgarian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.534784
7 Norwegian + Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 5.550569
8 Hungarian + Sardinian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 5.565824
9 Norwegian + Romanian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian @ 5.585774
10 Bulgarian + Sardinian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.673539
11 Greek_Thessaly + Sardinian + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.694033
12 Greek_Thessaly + Sardinian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.749220
13 Hungarian + Norwegian + Sardinian + West_German @ 5.753558
14 Bulgarian + Norwegian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian @ 5.766168
15 Moldavian + Sardinian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 5.770895
16 Norwegian + Norwegian + Romanian + Sardinian @ 5.831265
17 Bulgarian + Norwegian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 5.844364
18 North_Dutch + Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 5.889079
19 Greek_Thessaly + Sardinian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.903946
20 Sardinian + Serbian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.904378

Eurogenes K13. Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 33.61
2 West_Med 22.94
3 Baltic 22.26
4 East_Med 9.46
5 West_Asian 8.42
6 Siberian 1.72
7 Oceanian 1.01

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French @ 11.716281
2 Austrian @ 12.188517
3 Serbian @ 12.757566
4 West_German @ 12.814411
5 South_Dutch @ 13.645308
6 Hungarian @ 14.130422
7 East_German @ 14.228918
8 Spanish_Galicia @ 14.439450
9 Romanian @ 14.529330
10 Portuguese @ 14.734750
11 Spanish_Cataluna @ 14.775395
12 North_Italian @ 15.223390
13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 16.006678
14 Spanish_Extremadura @ 16.150238
15 Southwest_French @ 16.245083
16 Spanish_Cantabria @ 16.609442
17 Moldavian @ 16.801155
18 Spanish_Valencia @ 16.853004
19 Spanish_Murcia @ 17.213499
20 Bulgarian @ 17.299938

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Moldavian +50% Southwest_French @ 3.623326

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Moldavian +25% Southwest_French +25% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.489160

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.033608
2 French_Basque + Moldavian + Moldavian + North_Italian @ 3.079800
3 Croatian + French_Basque + Moldavian + North_Italian @ 3.203537
4 Erzya + French_Basque + Romanian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.290389
5 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.341744
6 French_Basque + Moldavian + North_Italian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.346941
7 Austrian + Bulgarian + French_Basque + Moldavian @ 3.370219
8 French_Basque + Kargopol_Russian + North_Italian + Romanian @ 3.425316
9 Austrian + Irish + Moldavian + Sardinian @ 3.436631
10 Bulgarian + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.443731
11 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.473214
12 Moldavian + Moldavian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.489160
13 French_Basque + Moldavian + Tuscan + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.490735
14 Bulgarian + French_Basque + Kargopol_Russian + North_Italian @ 3.494907
15 French_Basque + North_Italian + Romanian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.498014
16 East_German + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Moldavian @ 3.509891
17 Hungarian + Irish + Moldavian + Sardinian @ 3.542271
18 Moldavian + Moldavian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.558068
19 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.561317
20 Moldavian + Moldavian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.572875

=====

Edit:

MDLP K16 gives results with much shorter distances to modern populations:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 27.87
2 Caucasian 25.27
3 NorthEastEuropean 23.63
4 Steppe 17.86
5 NearEast 2.38
6 Subsaharian 1.46
7 Oceanic 0.8
8 Siberian 0.73

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.87
2 Austrian (Austria) 4.07
3 Serbian (Serbia) 4.11
4 Croat (Croatia) 4.12
5 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.16
6 German (SouthGermany) 4.25
7 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.35
8 Slovenian (Slovenia) 4.66
9 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 4.74
10 Moldavian (Molodva) 4.95
11 Romanian (Apuseni) 5.11
12 French (EastFrance) 5.2
13 French (NorthwestFrance) 5.31
14 German (Germany) 6.17
15 Welsh (Wales) 6.23
16 Swiss (Switzerland) 6.29
17 Italian (Friul) 6.39
18 German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) 6.45
19 Romanian (Gorj) 6.54
20 Hungarian (Hungary) 6.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.4% Serbian (Serbia) + 25.6% English (Kent) @ 1.95
2 71.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 28.8% English (Kent) @ 2.09
3 63.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 36.8% German (NorthGermany) @ 2.14
4 75.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 24.9% English (Cornwall) @ 2.16
5 78.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 21.9% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) @ 2.17
6 70.4% Serbian (Serbia) + 29.6% French (WestFrance) @ 2.18
7 62.6% Serbian (Serbia) + 37.4% Welsh (Wales) @ 2.18
8 68.6% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 31.4% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) @ 2.18
9 51.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 48.9% German (SouthGermany) @ 2.18
10 71.8% Serbian (Serbia) + 28.2% Scottish (Highlands) @ 2.18
11 72.5% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.5% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) @ 2.19
12 75.3% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 24.7% Norwegian (Norwegia) @ 2.19
13 72.9% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.1% Irish (Connacht) @ 2.2
14 59.6% Dutch (Netherlands) + 40.4% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 2.2
15 59.5% German (NorthGermany) + 40.5% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 2.2
16 58.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 41.8% Welsh (Wales) @ 2.21
17 76.3% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 23.7% Icelandic (Iceland) @ 2.21
18 72.7% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.3% French (France) @ 2.22
19 88.8% Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) + 11.2% French (SouthFrance) @ 2.22
20 63.9% Slovak (Slovakia) + 36.1% Italian (Tuscany) @ 2.23

4-Ancestors Oracle:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_SouthGermany +50% Serbian_Serbia @ 2.279744

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bosnian_Bosnia-Herzegovina +25% French_France +25% Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 2.023883

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.811748
2 Czech_Czechia + English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.822785
3 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.824391
4 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 1.824758
5 Czech_Czechia + English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.825529
6 French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.837201
7 Dutch_Netherlands + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.852918
8 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.872020
9 Czech_Czechia + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Pole_EastPoland @ 1.876931
10 German_Germany + German_NorthGermany + Macedonian_Macedonia + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.877333
11 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.878796
12 German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainian_Ukraine @ 1.880709
13 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Czech_Czechia + French_France + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.885328
14 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.885330
15 Croat_Croatia + German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 1.885825
16 French_France + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.886779
17 English_Kent + Italian_Tuscany + Kosovar_Kosovo + Lithuanian_Lithuania @ 1.888871
18 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina + Slovenian_Slovenia @ 1.896909
19 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.901240
20 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Czech_Czechia + French_France + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.901665

[Peterski]

https://i.imgur.com/JZckJvt.png

Eurogenes K36 results of DA199:

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 3.67 Pct
Basque 4.95 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 10.02 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 3.43 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 8.67 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian 13.65 Pct
French 7.63 Pct
Iberian 13.69 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 14.24 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 1.99 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 2.81 Pct
North_Sea 7.08 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian 0.92 Pct
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian 0.28 Pct
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 0.41 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 6.58 Pct

67600 SNPs used in this evaluation

Similarity map:

https://i.imgur.com/17RtBP3.png

[Blondie]

I uploaded Medieval Hungarian DA199 from Arkus (1224-1264 AD) to GEDmatch Genesis:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#12/47.5386/21.0464

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41586-018-0094-2/MediaObjects/41586_2018_94_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

"Radiocarbon dates have revealed that the skeleton from Arkus (DA199) was buried in medieval times."

https://i.imgur.com/iZOVwQr.png

=====

I wonder if it was a pre-Mongol Invasion or a post-Mongol Invasion sample?

Kit number - MB4181131

The sample was quite different than typical modern Hungarians, apparently:

Eurogenes K15. Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 27.86
2 Atlantic 18.95
3 West_Med 17.94
4 Baltic 13.10
5 East_Med 8.18
6 West_Asian 6.58
7 Eastern_Euro 5.05
8 Siberian 1.43

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French @ 9.924540
2 West_German @ 10.864012
3 South_Dutch @ 12.425678
4 Spanish_Galicia @ 12.654717
5 East_German @ 13.927590
6 Hungarian @ 14.200819
7 Portuguese @ 14.390987
8 Serbian @ 14.656580
9 Spanish_Cataluna @ 14.809558
10 Austrian @ 15.900934
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 16.077736
12 North_Italian @ 16.091932
13 Southwest_English @ 16.525103
14 Romanian @ 16.840759
15 Spanish_Extremadura @ 16.932692
16 North_German @ 17.360882
17 Spanish_Murcia @ 17.565674
18 Southeast_English @ 18.130503
19 Moldavian @ 18.551817
20 Spanish_Cantabria @ 18.824863

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% North_Italian +50% Swedish @ 7.378637

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +25% Romanian +25% Sardinian @ 5.831265

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.256300
2 Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.356653
3 Romanian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.442481
4 Hungarian + Sardinian + Swedish + West_German @ 5.456114
5 Bulgarian + Sardinian + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.463472
6 Bulgarian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.534784
7 Norwegian + Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 5.550569
8 Hungarian + Sardinian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 5.565824
9 Norwegian + Romanian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian @ 5.585774
10 Bulgarian + Sardinian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.673539
11 Greek_Thessaly + Sardinian + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 5.694033
12 Greek_Thessaly + Sardinian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.749220
13 Hungarian + Norwegian + Sardinian + West_German @ 5.753558
14 Bulgarian + Norwegian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian @ 5.766168
15 Moldavian + Sardinian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 5.770895
16 Norwegian + Norwegian + Romanian + Sardinian @ 5.831265
17 Bulgarian + Norwegian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 5.844364
18 North_Dutch + Romanian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 5.889079
19 Greek_Thessaly + Sardinian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 5.903946
20 Sardinian + Serbian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.904378

Eurogenes K13. Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 33.61
2 West_Med 22.94
3 Baltic 22.26
4 East_Med 9.46
5 West_Asian 8.42
6 Siberian 1.72
7 Oceanian 1.01

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French @ 11.716281
2 Austrian @ 12.188517
3 Serbian @ 12.757566
4 West_German @ 12.814411
5 South_Dutch @ 13.645308
6 Hungarian @ 14.130422
7 East_German @ 14.228918
8 Spanish_Galicia @ 14.439450
9 Romanian @ 14.529330
10 Portuguese @ 14.734750
11 Spanish_Cataluna @ 14.775395
12 North_Italian @ 15.223390
13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 16.006678
14 Spanish_Extremadura @ 16.150238
15 Southwest_French @ 16.245083
16 Spanish_Cantabria @ 16.609442
17 Moldavian @ 16.801155
18 Spanish_Valencia @ 16.853004
19 Spanish_Murcia @ 17.213499
20 Bulgarian @ 17.299938

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Moldavian +50% Southwest_French @ 3.623326

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Moldavian +25% Southwest_French +25% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.489160

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.033608
2 French_Basque + Moldavian + Moldavian + North_Italian @ 3.079800
3 Croatian + French_Basque + Moldavian + North_Italian @ 3.203537
4 Erzya + French_Basque + Romanian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.290389
5 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.341744
6 French_Basque + Moldavian + North_Italian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.346941
7 Austrian + Bulgarian + French_Basque + Moldavian @ 3.370219
8 French_Basque + Kargopol_Russian + North_Italian + Romanian @ 3.425316
9 Austrian + Irish + Moldavian + Sardinian @ 3.436631
10 Bulgarian + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.443731
11 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.473214
12 Moldavian + Moldavian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.489160
13 French_Basque + Moldavian + Tuscan + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.490735
14 Bulgarian + French_Basque + Kargopol_Russian + North_Italian @ 3.494907
15 French_Basque + North_Italian + Romanian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.498014
16 East_German + French_Basque + Greek_Thessaly + Moldavian @ 3.509891
17 Hungarian + Irish + Moldavian + Sardinian @ 3.542271
18 Moldavian + Moldavian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.558068
19 Bulgarian + Erzya + French_Basque + Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.561317
20 Moldavian + Moldavian + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.572875

Genetically the early hungarians were descedants of huns, of course they had many east/central asian dna:

"According to our data half of the conqueror population had Xiongnu origin, corroborating the statement of medieval Hungarian chronicles, which all declare Hunnic origin of the Hungarians. "
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794/2/Neparaczki_Thesis_english.pdf

Genetic map of early hungarian elite:

https://m.blog.hu/ce/celpontban/image/hunok.jpg

Mtdna map of early hungarians:

https://m.nyest.hu/media/a-honfoglalas-kori-es-a-ma-elo-mgyar-populaciok-mtdns-haplocsoportjai.jpg?large

Medieval hungarian face reconstrutions:

http://i39.tinypic.com/15s7ehg.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-23.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-24.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-25.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-26.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-27.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-28.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-29.jpg

http://homes.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-30.jpg

Don't forget the 1. and 2. hungarian genocide when mongols and ottomans killed 30-50% of hungarian population. Modern hungarians are mostly hungarian speaker germans, slavs and pannonians (local illyrian tribe).

[Peterski]

This one is not so early though, it is actually from the 13th century. It is C14 dated to 1224-1264 AD, which is around the same time as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary

^^^
That invasion in 1241-1242 caused heavy depopulation in many parts of Hungary. After that Hungarian kings invited foreign immigrants.

[Peterski]

I converted it to GEDmatch format from BAM file because I couldn't find it in PLINK format (which is better for ancient samples).

Not sure if the results are not biased because of this fact.

But, I don't think that anyone converted this sample before me, because it is not listed in "Ancient DNA on GEDmatch" thread.

Is this sample included in Davidski's Global25 spreadsheet?

[Ford]

Don't forget the 1. and 2. hungarian genocide when mongols and ottomans killed 30-50% of hungarian population. Modern hungarians are mostly hungarian speaker germans, slavs and pannonians (local illyrian tribe).

I think Hungary is similar to Bulgaria in a sense when it comes to their language and genetics. Modern day Hungarians are really just cultural descendants of the original Magyars, at least when it comes to their language but are not as affected genetically. The parallel with Bulgarians is just that the original Bulgars were absorbed into the far more numerous Slavic population and their name just stuck with them.

This is from 23andme:
https://i.imgur.com/867auGU.png

[Blondie]

This one is not so early though, it is actually from the 13th century. It is C14 dated to 1224-1264 AD, which is around the same time as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary

^^^
That invasion in 1241-1242 caused heavy depopulation in many parts of Hungary. After that Hungarian kings invited foreign immigrants.

Exactly, for example germans, romanians and slavs migrated here. Ethnic map of Hungary in 11. century:

https://i.imgur.com/uv10RYT.jpg

Hungary after the mongol destruction:

http://arkadia.pte.hu/fajlok/01terkep_priskin.jpg

Hungary after the ottoman destruction:

http://www.folyoirat.tortenelemtanitas.hu/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/06_01_11_Varga_terkep11.jpg

[Blondie]

I think Hungary is similar to Bulgaria in a sense when it comes to their language and genetics. Modern day Hungarians are really just cultural descendants of the original Magyars, at least when it comes to their language but are not as affected genetically. The parallel with Bulgarians is just that the original Bulgars were absorbed into the far more numerous Slavic population and their name just stuck with them.

This is from 23andme:
https://i.imgur.com/867auGU.png

The hungarian conquerors were not numerous only 30000-50000 people and the population of Carpathian Basin was 1,5 million in this time. The hungarian and bulgarian situation is almost same but we preserved our language unlike bulgarians and their turkic language.

[Ford]

The hungarian conquerors were not numerous only 30000-50000 people and the population of Carpathian Basin was 1,5 million in this time. The hungarian and bulgarian situation is almost same but we preserved our language unlike bulgarians and their turkic language.

Yes, exactly. The image I attached also said that they never were very numerous, but that they "magyarized" the local population.

[Peterski]

Hungary after the mongol destruction:

http://arkadia.pte.hu/fajlok/01terkep_priskin.jpg

Which regions of Germany were German settlers coming to Hungary from?

If this DA199 is partially German, it rather looks like South-West Germans.

[Insuperable]

What is the number of SNPs used?

edit: it is written on the first page.:dizzy:

[Peterski]

What is the number of SNPs used?

For Eurogenes K15: 75362 SNPs used in this evaluation

So higher than in 23andMe v5 chip, but lower than in FTDNA chip (for example).

It is not close to any modern population because was ethnically mixed, I guess.

=====

Next I will upload Hallstatt Bylany DA112.

Because only DA111 is on GEDmatch, for some reason nobody bothered to upload the other one, so far.

Apparently DA112 had some Central Asian:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/08/central-asian-admixture-in-hallstatt.html

[Insuperable]

That is a quality sample.

[Blondie]

Which regions of Germany were German settlers coming to Hungary from?

If this DA199 is partially German, it rather looks like South-West Germans.

Mostly swabians and saxons.

[Peterski]

Mostly swabians and saxons.

This one could be partially Swabian. Did they start coming after the Mongol Invasion or earlier?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

This one could be partially Swabian. Did they start coming after the Mongol Invasion or earlier?

German immigrants came to Hungarian and Croatian cities even before mongol invasions. There were lot of French and North Italian settlers also. Why couldn't this dude be rather French ? I don't think it's German

[Peterski]

There were lot of French and North Italian settlers also. Why couldn't this dude be rather French ?

This was a woman. She couldn't be JUST French because distance is too large.

She was probably a recent ethnic mix with ancestry from more than one group.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

This was a woman. She couldn't be JUST French because distance is too large.

She was probably a recent ethnic mix with ancestry from more than one group.

I see, what was she mix of in your opinion ?

[Blondie]

Yes, exactly. The image I attached also said that they never were very numerous, but that they "magyarized" the local population.

Yes its possible, i belive in this version, but there are others theories:

1. The small hungarian elite magyarized the local population because of military dominance and hungarian statehood. (this is your version)

2. The conquerors were not hungarians but turks and the local population (slavic-avar) was already hungarian speaker (because avars) before the migration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#Gyula_L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3's_Avar-Hungarian_continuity_theory

3. The conquerors were the last hungarian group who migrated here, other hungarian ethnic groups were already here, the first arrived here with huns and the complete hungarian migration was not only in 9. century but between 5-9. century. For example székelys were in Carpathian Basin before 9. century and they have hun traditions.

So this story is very difficult.

[Coastal Elite]

By pure coincidence, I get similar results to these on eurogenes k 15
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 27.42
2 Atlantic 24.57
3 Baltic 11.73
4 West_Med 11.08
5 East_Med 9.32
6 West_Asian 9.11
7 Eastern_Euro 5.19



Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French @ 8.448143
2 South_Dutch @ 8.556475
3 West_German @ 9.382403
4 North_German @ 12.377408
5 East_German @ 13.218096

[IncelSlayer]

Exactly, for example germans, romanians and slavs migrated here. Ethnic map of Hungary in 11. century:

https://i.imgur.com/uv10RYT.jpg



I do not understand why you people post that fake photoshopped image which was proven as fake.Here's the unedited one:

https://i.imgur.com/I3wymmn.png

Relax, it can happen to anyone, you couldn't have known but I ask you that next time you pay more attention to the materials you find on the internet, some might be fake.

[Peterski]

I see, what was she mix of in your opinion ?

It looks complicated. My guess:

1/4 "Proto-Magyar"*, 1/4 South German, 1/4 South French, 1/4 Italian-Greek-Vlach?

*There is some affinity to Erzya and to Karelians, as well as to Balto-Slavs here.

But maybe it was a mix of different local groups, and not immigrants from so far away.

50% Swiss + 50% local is another option.

[Blondie]

By the way autosomal maps of modern hungarians:

Red Sea, 1-2,5%:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Red_Sea-admixture.gif

North West European, 10-20%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

British & Irish, 1-5%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_British_Irish.png

French & German 20-30%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_French_German.png

Italian, 1-5%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Italian.png

Balkans admixture 5-10%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Balkans.png

South European admixture, 5-10%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_South_European.png

East European slavic admixture, 30-40%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_East_European.png

Autosomaly we are closest to Croats, czechs, slovenians and austrians:

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

This population is clearly slavic-germanic mixed.

[Peterski]

I checked what she scores in MDLP K16, and in this calculator there are results closer to various modern populations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 27.87
2 Caucasian 25.27
3 NorthEastEuropean 23.63
4 Steppe 17.86
5 NearEast 2.38
6 Subsaharian 1.46
7 Oceanic 0.8
8 Siberian 0.73

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.87
2 Austrian (Austria) 4.07
3 Serbian (Serbia) 4.11
4 Croat (Croatia) 4.12
5 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.16
6 German (SouthGermany) 4.25
7 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.35
8 Slovenian (Slovenia) 4.66
9 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 4.74
10 Moldavian (Molodva) 4.95
11 Romanian (Apuseni) 5.11
12 French (EastFrance) 5.2
13 French (NorthwestFrance) 5.31
14 German (Germany) 6.17
15 Welsh (Wales) 6.23
16 Swiss (Switzerland) 6.29
17 Italian (Friul) 6.39
18 German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) 6.45
19 Romanian (Gorj) 6.54
20 Hungarian (Hungary) 6.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.4% Serbian (Serbia) + 25.6% English (Kent) @ 1.95
2 71.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 28.8% English (Kent) @ 2.09
3 63.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 36.8% German (NorthGermany) @ 2.14
4 75.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 24.9% English (Cornwall) @ 2.16
5 78.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 21.9% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) @ 2.17
6 70.4% Serbian (Serbia) + 29.6% French (WestFrance) @ 2.18
7 62.6% Serbian (Serbia) + 37.4% Welsh (Wales) @ 2.18
8 68.6% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 31.4% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) @ 2.18
9 51.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 48.9% German (SouthGermany) @ 2.18
10 71.8% Serbian (Serbia) + 28.2% Scottish (Highlands) @ 2.18
11 72.5% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.5% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) @ 2.19
12 75.3% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 24.7% Norwegian (Norwegia) @ 2.19
13 72.9% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.1% Irish (Connacht) @ 2.2
14 59.6% Dutch (Netherlands) + 40.4% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 2.2
15 59.5% German (NorthGermany) + 40.5% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 2.2
16 58.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 41.8% Welsh (Wales) @ 2.21
17 76.3% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 23.7% Icelandic (Iceland) @ 2.21
18 72.7% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.3% French (France) @ 2.22
19 88.8% Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) + 11.2% French (SouthFrance) @ 2.22
20 63.9% Slovak (Slovakia) + 36.1% Italian (Tuscany) @ 2.23

4-Ancestors Oracle:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_SouthGermany +50% Serbian_Serbia @ 2.279744

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bosnian_Bosnia-Herzegovina +25% French_France +25% Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 2.023883

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.811748
2 Czech_Czechia + English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.822785
3 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.824391
4 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 1.824758
5 Czech_Czechia + English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.825529
6 French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.837201
7 Dutch_Netherlands + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.852918
8 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.872020
9 Czech_Czechia + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Pole_EastPoland @ 1.876931
10 German_Germany + German_NorthGermany + Macedonian_Macedonia + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.877333
11 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.878796
12 German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainian_Ukraine @ 1.880709
13 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Czech_Czechia + French_France + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.885328
14 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.885330
15 Croat_Croatia + German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 1.885825
16 French_France + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.886779
17 English_Kent + Italian_Tuscany + Kosovar_Kosovo + Lithuanian_Lithuania @ 1.888871
18 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina + Slovenian_Slovenia @ 1.896909
19 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.901240
20 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Czech_Czechia + French_France + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.901665

[Lucas]

Croat is good aproximation probably

[someonenotyou]

I checked what she scores in MDLP K16, and in this calculator there are results closer to various modern populations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 27.87
2 Caucasian 25.27
3 NorthEastEuropean 23.63
4 Steppe 17.86
5 NearEast 2.38
6 Subsaharian 1.46
7 Oceanic 0.8
8 Siberian 0.73

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.87
2 Austrian (Austria) 4.07
3 Serbian (Serbia) 4.11
4 Croat (Croatia) 4.12
5 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.16
6 German (SouthGermany) 4.25
7 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.35
8 Slovenian (Slovenia) 4.66
9 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 4.74
10 Moldavian (Molodva) 4.95
11 Romanian (Apuseni) 5.11
12 French (EastFrance) 5.2
13 French (NorthwestFrance) 5.31
14 German (Germany) 6.17
15 Welsh (Wales) 6.23
16 Swiss (Switzerland) 6.29
17 Italian (Friul) 6.39
18 German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) 6.45
19 Romanian (Gorj) 6.54
20 Hungarian (Hungary) 6.64


This is mine:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 25.29
2 Caucasian 23.02
3 NorthEastEuropean 22.83
4 Steppe 19.16
5 NorthAfrican 3.86
6 Indian 3.61
7 NearEast 1.73


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Austrian_Austria @ 5.361722
2 German_SouthGermany @ 5.964149
3 Moldavian_Molodva @ 6.229544
4 Bosnian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 6.258539
5 Croat_Croatia @ 6.269457
6 French_EastFrance @ 6.432296
7 Croat_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 6.451625
8 Slovenian_Slovenia @ 6.478506
9 French_NorthwestFrance @ 6.552144
10 Welsh_Wales @ 6.651336
11 German_Lipsian_(Saxony) @ 6.950838
12 Romanian_Apuseni @ 7.242997
13 Dane_Denmark @ 7.352816
14 Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 7.480252
15 Provencal_Provence @ 7.487127
16 German_Germany @ 7.603063
17 German_Germany @ 7.651184
18 Hungarian_WestUkraine @ 7.653340
19 Swiss_Switzerland @ 7.709556
20 Scottish_Fife @ 7.999394

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_Ireland +50% Romanian_Gorj @ 2.836079


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_Leinster +25% Jew_Morocco +25% Ukrainians_north_NorthUkraine @ 2.625087


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + English_England @ 2.356828
2 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Irish_Munster @ 2.382116
3 Latvian_Dobele_Dobele + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + Tabasaran_Dagestan @ 2.426416
4 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Irish_Leinster @ 2.432827
5 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 2.449529
6 Latvian_Latvia + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + Tabasaran_Dagestan @ 2.461228
7 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 2.463969
8 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Munster + Irish_Munster @ 2.479682
9 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Leinster + Irish_Munster @ 2.481805
10 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Cork_Kerry + Irish_Munster @ 2.504756
11 Estonian_Estonia + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + Tabasaran_Dagestan @ 2.516990
12 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Irish_Ireland @ 2.531379
13 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Scottish_Borders @ 2.539386
14 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Scottish_Fife @ 2.540444
15 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + English_England + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.545420
16 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Munster + Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 2.549762
17 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Cork_Kerry + Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 2.551846
18 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Leinster + Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 2.561114
19 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Cork_Kerry + Irish_Leinster @ 2.562603
20 Jew_Belmonte + Cossack_Zaporozhie + Irish_Munster + Scottish_Fife @ 2.571234

This calculator seems weird.

[Mingle]

Hungary after the mongol destruction:

http://arkadia.pte.hu/fajlok/01terkep_priskin.jpg

Can you translate the text in the top right?

[Vid Flumina]

I checked what she scores in MDLP K16, and in this calculator there are results closer to various modern populations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 27.87
2 Caucasian 25.27
3 NorthEastEuropean 23.63
4 Steppe 17.86
5 NearEast 2.38
6 Subsaharian 1.46
7 Oceanic 0.8
8 Siberian 0.73

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.87
2 Austrian (Austria) 4.07
3 Serbian (Serbia) 4.11
4 Croat (Croatia) 4.12
5 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.16
6 German (SouthGermany) 4.25
7 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4.35
8 Slovenian (Slovenia) 4.66
9 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 4.74
10 Moldavian (Molodva) 4.95
11 Romanian (Apuseni) 5.11
12 French (EastFrance) 5.2
13 French (NorthwestFrance) 5.31
14 German (Germany) 6.17
15 Welsh (Wales) 6.23
16 Swiss (Switzerland) 6.29
17 Italian (Friul) 6.39
18 German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) 6.45
19 Romanian (Gorj) 6.54
20 Hungarian (Hungary) 6.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.4% Serbian (Serbia) + 25.6% English (Kent) @ 1.95
2 71.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 28.8% English (Kent) @ 2.09
3 63.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 36.8% German (NorthGermany) @ 2.14
4 75.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 24.9% English (Cornwall) @ 2.16
5 78.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 21.9% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) @ 2.17
6 70.4% Serbian (Serbia) + 29.6% French (WestFrance) @ 2.18
7 62.6% Serbian (Serbia) + 37.4% Welsh (Wales) @ 2.18
8 68.6% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 31.4% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) @ 2.18
9 51.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 48.9% German (SouthGermany) @ 2.18
10 71.8% Serbian (Serbia) + 28.2% Scottish (Highlands) @ 2.18
11 72.5% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.5% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) @ 2.19
12 75.3% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 24.7% Norwegian (Norwegia) @ 2.19
13 72.9% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.1% Irish (Connacht) @ 2.2
14 59.6% Dutch (Netherlands) + 40.4% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 2.2
15 59.5% German (NorthGermany) + 40.5% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 2.2
16 58.2% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 41.8% Welsh (Wales) @ 2.21
17 76.3% Montenegrian (Montenegro) + 23.7% Icelandic (Iceland) @ 2.21
18 72.7% Serbian (Serbia) + 27.3% French (France) @ 2.22
19 88.8% Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) + 11.2% French (SouthFrance) @ 2.22
20 63.9% Slovak (Slovakia) + 36.1% Italian (Tuscany) @ 2.23

4-Ancestors Oracle:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_SouthGermany +50% Serbian_Serbia @ 2.279744

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bosnian_Bosnia-Herzegovina +25% French_France +25% Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 2.023883

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.811748
2 Czech_Czechia + English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.822785
3 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.824391
4 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 1.824758
5 Czech_Czechia + English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.825529
6 French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.837201
7 Dutch_Netherlands + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.852918
8 Czech_Czechia + French_France + Macedonian_Macedonia + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.872020
9 Czech_Czechia + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Pole_EastPoland @ 1.876931
10 German_Germany + German_NorthGermany + Macedonian_Macedonia + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.877333
11 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.878796
12 German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainian_Ukraine @ 1.880709
13 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Czech_Czechia + French_France + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 1.885328
14 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.885330
15 Croat_Croatia + German_NorthGermany + Italian_Bergamo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 1.885825
16 French_France + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.886779
17 English_Kent + Italian_Tuscany + Kosovar_Kosovo + Lithuanian_Lithuania @ 1.888871
18 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina + Slovenian_Slovenia @ 1.896909
19 English_Kent + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia + Ukrainians_west_WestUkraine @ 1.901240
20 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Czech_Czechia + French_France + Serbian_Serbia @ 1.901665

Calculator has garbage oracle, even I get first Serbia and Montenegro before NE Italy:


86.1% Serbian (Serbia) + 13.9% Sardinian (Sardinia) @ 3.3

...


Croat is good aproximation probably

Not even close:

https://i.imgur.com/qEiUO7b.png

[Dunai]

The hungarian conquerors were not numerous only 30000-50000 people and the population of Carpathian Basin was 1,5 million in this time. The hungarian and bulgarian situation is almost same but we preserved our language unlike bulgarians and their turkic language.

These are all speculative estimations, various academicians have various number predictions. However one thing is certain: it is absolutely without any precedent in Europe where a people numbering only 50.000 (if we take lowest estimates as correct) could impose their language to the local people of estimated 1.5 million. This is especially clear in the Hungarian case, since we have absolutely no evidence that there were any forced language conversions practiced by the new Hungarian elite upon the local inhabitants. It is also absolutely hard to believe that these new-coming Árpád Hungarians haven't adopted the language of the locals, since they were allegedly so few compared to who were already living here. In any previous cases of Eastern invaders, they always assimilated into the locals, including abandoning their language. But I repeat this all seems very improbable only if we take the 50.000-1.5 million ratio estimation as valid. Archeologically there is simply no solid evidence (scarce number of burial sites) that so many people were already living in the Carpathian Basin, so any over a million estimation is very unlikely.

What I want to point out overall, is that there is still much to be researched about how many people and who lived in the Carpathian Basin, but also how many Árpád Hungarians did move here indeed, and who were they also, because they surely weren't a fully Magyar speaking people, but more like a steppe confederation of various languages, of which Magyar was the dominant one.

[Blondie]

Can you translate the text in the top right?

Ethncities in 15. century:

magyar: hungarian
szlovák: slovak
magyar-szlovák vegyesen: magyar-slovak mixed
németek, svábok: german
német-magyar vegyesen: german-hungarian mixed
románok: romanian
horvátok: croats
szerbek: serbians
ruszinok: Ruthenes
vend= slovenes

Lines in central Hungary = area of ottoman destruction.

[Crimson Winds]

By the way autosomal maps of modern hungarians:

Red Sea, 1-2,5%:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Red_Sea-admixture.gif

North West European, 10-20%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

British & Irish, 1-5%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_British_Irish.png

French & German 20-30%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_French_German.png

Italian, 1-5%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Italian.png

Balkans admixture 5-10%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Balkans.png

South European admixture, 5-10%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_South_European.png

East European slavic admixture, 30-40%:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_East_European.png

Autosomaly we are closest to Croats, czechs, slovenians and austrians:

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

This population is clearly slavic-germanic mixed.

Red Sea, 1-2,5%= what an Arab

[Karol Klačansky]

The hungarian conquerors were not numerous only 30000-50000 people and the population of Carpathian Basin was 1,5 million in this time. The hungarian and bulgarian situation is almost same but we preserved our language unlike bulgarians and their turkic language.More like opposite. Bulgarians preserved their language while ancestors of Hungarians adopted a new one. Bulgarians only adopted a new name

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Dunai]

More like opposite. Bulgarians preserved their language while ancestors of Hungarians adopted a new one. Bulgarians only adopted a new name

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

Because you are such a big expert in who is and who isn't a Bulgarian. I met some Bulgarians in my life who only identified with Bulgarian identity, and didn't feel much kinship with Slavs. Basically they identify mostly with the name that their Turkic elite has imposed on them in the Early Middle Ages. It's another topic though that most Bulgarians hate to be reminded that the name they identify with represents a steppe nomad Turkic people. Of course there are many Bulgarians who feel Slavic, but there are also those who feel Thracian. Modern national identities are very heterogeneous, and nobody can say that only x and y is representative of a nation.