The Celtic Conquest of Britain and Ireland

[J. Ketch]

How much genetic impact do people think Continental Celts had on Britain and Ireland, prior to Roman/Germanic conquests? All of Britain and Ireland is Southern shifted compared to the Bronze Age, Southern Britain/England the most, Ireland the least. I think in the case of Southern Britain, the Celtic conquest/s were directly analogous to the Germanic conquests of one thousand years later, probably in terms of cultural transformation, but maybe even genetically as well.

To me this is a strangely ignored subject. It is increasingly clear that Insular Celts are not in fact original Celts but Celticised Bell Beaker folk; how these Central European derived people conquered the Isles, enforced their culture and spread their genes is a fascinating question, but a lot of people are skeptical that it even happened in such a way, or they maybe think Celtic culture developed in-situ on the British Isles from a common proto-Celtic Beaker heritage with the continent. I won't comment on that, but to me the genetic change from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age is proof that there was significant population change and likely conquest.

[Dna8]

What are some theories/ modes of understanding that strike you as most plausible?

[Token]

qpAdm run targeting Iron Age Britons. It looks like a mass replacement to me.

England_IA
Britain_&_Ireland_BA 0.555±0.172
Hallstatt 0.445±0.172
chisq 18.513
tail prob 0.100973

Modern-day Irish people also shows substantial Hallstatt-like contribution, no matter which sample from the Bronze Age British Isles you are using as reference.

"distance%=2.1656"
Irish
Ireland_EBA,68.6
Hallstatt_Bylany,31.4

[Grace O'Malley]

qpAdm run targeting Iron Age Britons. It looks like a mass replacement to me.

England_IA
Britain_&_Ireland_BA 0.555±0.172
Hallstatt 0.445±0.172
chisq 18.513
tail prob 0.100973

Modern-day Irish people also shows substantial Hallstatt-like contribution, no matter which sample from the Bronze Age British Isles you are using as reference.

"distance%=2.1656"
Irish
Ireland_EBA,68.6
Hallstatt_Bylany,31.4

Only problem with that model is that lots of countries show an affinity with Hallstatt.

http://i64.tinypic.com/i5sxw3.jpg

I did this with some other populations. Spanish are obviously not a good fit but look at Belgians? I suppose they take up so much Hallstatt because Ireland_EBA is not a good fit for them?

http://i68.tinypic.com/jb23a0.jpg

[Token]

Only problem with that model is that lots of countries show an affinity with Hallstatt.

I did this with some other populations. Spanish are actually not a good fit but look at Belgians? I suppose they take up so much Hallstatt because Ireland_EBA is not a good fit for them?


Tell me, what is the relevance of Ireland_BA to populations like French, Norwegians or Spaniards? The algorithm is just working with what you give him. Modelling with ancient samples needs context.

Pre-Celtic Belgians might have been already less northern shifted than Ireland_BA, so the algorithm compensates the southern shift with more Hallstatt. Anyway, it would be very hard to accurately quantify Hallstatt admixture in Belgians because they are a very mixed population. In the case of the Irish, there is no other reasonable way to account for this southern shift besides Celtic movements from the continent, which correlates very strongly with archeological data.

[Grace O'Malley]

Tell me, what is the relevance of Ireland_BA to populations like French, Norwegians or Spaniards? The algorithm is just working with what you give him. Modelling with ancient samples needs context.

Pre-Celtic Belgians might have been already less northern shifted than Ireland_BA, so the algorithm compensates the southern shift with more Hallstatt. Anyway, it would be very hard to accurately quantify Hallstatt admixture in Belgians because they are a very mixed population. In the case of the Irish, there is no other reasonable way to account for this southern shift besides Celtic movements from the continent, which correlates very strongly with archeological data.

Thanks for the explanation. I was aware of the compensation factor involved. It is very interesting and I'm really pleased that you can actually model Irish with some Hallstatt. What is of note is that the Irish are so strongly L21 so whatever happened didn't bring in a lot of other ydna although there could be reasons for this and it doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't outside input as I have seen explanations on why ydna can sometimes be sidelined.

[Peterski]

(...)

You wrote few days ago, that Proto-Celtic is probably 3200 years old. So Hallstatt DA111 and DA112 are too young to be Proto-Celts.

RISE150 is - on the other hand - slightly too old, but maybe populations genetically like RISE150 persisted until 3200 years ago?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275636-The-British-Celts-are-really-just-seperated-Germanics-Agree-or-Not&p=5781411#post5781411

https://i.imgur.com/mI06mIY.png

[Óttar]

If anyone has read this book, please let me know what you think of it. Thanks. I saw the documentary.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kO9iIJxQL._SX328_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[Peterski]

Only problem with that model is that lots of countries show an affinity with Hallstatt.

Is that a "problem" or just reality? See my thread below:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?243191-Were-Celts-once-30-40-of-Europe-s-population

[Grace O'Malley]

Is that a "problem" or just reality? See my thread below:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?243191-Were-Celts-once-30-40-of-Europe-s-population

Well you have to pick these populations so it can be a bit selective or biased. I'm really interested in the truth so I try not to hold on to outdated theories but I think Token answered it well and your models look quite convincing.

[Bellbeaking]

It would be interesting to see if this Celtic conquest of the British Isles was mostly male dominated.

[celticdragongod]

If anyone has read this book, please let me know what you think of it. Thanks. I saw the documentary.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kO9iIJxQL._SX328_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Quinn seems to believe that the Irish have North African ancestry and share cultural similarities with the Berbers. His views are somewhat controversial to say the least.

[Bellbeaking]

Quinn seems to believe that the Irish have North African ancestry and share cultural similarities with the Berbers. His views are somewhat controversial to say the least.

how would this be the case? Irish where 90% replaced by beakers. Perhaps the neolithics in ireland may have been similar but the modern irish do not have much to do with them.

[J. Ketch]

If anyone has read this book, please let me know what you think of it. Thanks. I saw the documentary.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kO9iIJxQL._SX328_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
What is this documentary? I need a laugh.

[J. Ketch]

It makes me wonder if the Picts were the last holdout of the original non-Celtic Beaker language, and if they were perhaps genetically different from the rest of Britain when they met the Romans. The Romans certainly made a point of mentioning the German like rufosity of the Caledonians compared to the "Iberian like" Silures of South Wales, that can't be totally dismissed despite their tendency for exaggeration.

Still to this day the the signs of higher Celtic ancestry are there in the South Welsh and Cornish, real Iron Age Southern British populations.
https://i.postimg.cc/dDM662jP/image.png

[Imperator Biff]

If anyone has read this book, please let me know what you think of it. Thanks. I saw the documentary.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kO9iIJxQL._SX328_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

I wouldn’t bother with this one. Nothing but the incoherent ramblings of a senile marxist.
Quinn is a clown, not to be taken seriously.

[Imperator Biff]

how would this be the case? Irish where 90% replaced by beakers. Perhaps the neolithics in ireland may have been similar but the modern irish do not have much to do with them.

Not even, we have dna from Irish EEF and they had no affinity with north Africans.

[J. Ketch]

I wouldn’t bother with this one. Nothing but the incoherent ramblings of a senile marxist.
Quinn is a clown, not to be taken seriously.
Barry Cunliffe too? I feel like genetics has liberated us from these people and their control over historical narratives, that's why they're so slow to acknowledge genetic findings. Moreover genetics tend to re-affirm the old 'racist' narratives about Aryans and conquest, which is a bitter pill to swallow for them.

[Imperator Biff]

Barry Cunliffe too? I feel like genetics has liberated us from these people and their control over historical narratives, that's why they're so slow to acknowledge genetic findings. Moreover genetics tend to re-affirm the old 'racist' narratives about Aryans and conquest, which is a bitter pill to swallow for them.

They’ll have no choice but to swallow it or choke. Quinn is a lot better.
I’d recommend “The origins of the Irish” by JP Mallory and “Blood of the celts” by Jean Manco, they actually look at the archaeological, genetic and linguistic data.

[Smaug]

So apparently British Celts are actually Celticized (Hallstatt/La Téne) native pre-IE Britons? That would explain the matches with samples from the continent.

[Bellbeaking]

So apparently British Celts are actually Celticized (Hallstatt/La Téne) native pre-IE Britons? That would explain the matches with samples from the continent.

Nope, Celticized single grave beakers who are proto NW IE