Germanic chieftain from Poprad (Slovakia), 375-400 AD

[Peterski]

Sample DA119: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#11/49.0387/20.3840

Kit number on GEDmatch Genesis - LJ7725249

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 44.64
2 Baltic 30.13
3 West_Med 15.52
4 East_Med 4.68
5 West_Asian 4.18
6 Red_Sea 0.72
7 Amerindian 0.06
8 Sub-Saharan 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 6.44
2 East_German 7.15
3 Swedish 7.48
4 North_Dutch 7.56
5 Danish 7.66
6 South_Dutch 7.69
7 Austrian 7.71
8 West_German 8.18
9 Southeast_English 8.21
10 Norwegian 8.3
11 Orcadian 8.53
12 Irish 9.69
13 Southwest_English 9.79
14 North_Swedish 10.34
15 West_Scottish 10.45
16 Hungarian 12.4
17 French 13.05
18 Southwest_Finnish 16.34
19 South_Polish 16.79
20 Croatian 16.93

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.9% Southwest_English + 33.1% Ukrainian @ 2.46
2 63.7% Southwest_English + 36.3% South_Polish @ 2.55
3 66.7% Southwest_English + 33.3% Polish @ 2.7
4 70.9% Southwest_English + 29.1% Estonian_Polish @ 2.77
5 70.9% Southeast_English + 29.1% Polish @ 2.78
6 71.3% Southeast_English + 28.7% Ukrainian @ 2.81
7 58.8% East_German + 41.2% Southwest_English @ 2.87
8 55.1% East_German + 44.9% Orcadian @ 2.93
9 66.6% Southwest_English + 33.4% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.94
10 68.3% Southeast_English + 31.7% South_Polish @ 2.96
11 70.6% Southwest_English + 29.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.97
12 71.4% Southwest_English + 28.6% Southwest_Russian @ 2.98
13 70.8% Southwest_English + 29.2% Belorussian @ 2.99
14 75% Southeast_English + 25% Estonian_Polish @ 3
15 74.6% Southeast_English + 25.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.05
16 70.9% Southeast_English + 29.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.06
17 60.7% East_German + 39.3% West_Scottish @ 3.06
18 54.1% East_German + 45.9% Southeast_English @ 3.07
19 87.6% Swedish + 12.4% Sardinian @ 3.13
20 58.9% East_German + 41.1% Irish @ 3.19

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_German +50% Orcadian @ 3.328795

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +25% Polish +25% Southwest_French @ 1.924935

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Lithuanian + Norwegian + Southwest_English + Southwest_French @ 1.915341
2 Norwegian + Norwegian + Polish + Southwest_French @ 1.924935
3 Lithuanian + Norwegian + Southeast_English + Southwest_French @ 1.958500
4 Belorussian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Southwest_French @ 1.963353
5 Lithuanian + North_Dutch + Southwest_French + West_Scottish @ 1.971464
6 Belorussian + North_Dutch + Norwegian + Southwest_French @ 1.984728
7 Lithuanian + Norwegian + Southwest_French + West_Scottish @ 2.007903
8 Belorussian + Irish + Norwegian + Southwest_French @ 2.017054
9 Belorussian + Norwegian + Orcadian + Southwest_French @ 2.048440
10 Irish + Lithuanian + North_Dutch + Southwest_French @ 2.052156
11 Belorussian + Norwegian + Southwest_French + West_Scottish @ 2.057979
12 Lithuanian + North_Dutch + Norwegian + Spanish_Aragon @ 2.064839
13 Lithuanian + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Southwest_French @ 2.075570
14 Lithuanian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Spanish_Aragon @ 2.079687
15 Danish + Lithuanian + Southwest_French + West_Scottish @ 2.100448
16 Lithuanian + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Southwest_French @ 2.104177
17 Estonian + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Southwest_French @ 2.113546
18 Irish + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Southwest_French @ 2.114941
19 Lithuanian + Norwegian + Orcadian + Southwest_French @ 2.119613
20 Lithuanian + Norwegian + Southwest_English + Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.137532

Eurogenes K36:

88733 SNPs used in this evaluation [he was uploaded before, but for some reason that upload only had 68954 SNPs]

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 11.52 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.87 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 13.09 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 4.89 Pct
Fennoscandian 4.99 Pct
French 10.03 Pct
Iberian 5.37 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 5.07 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 11.25 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 23.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 3.75 Pct

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/YjCIdY3.png

[Matxe92]

Im pretty damn similiar to this guy lol, how weird. Minor differences though.


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 44.91
2 Baltic 32.04
3 West_Med 9.95
4 West_Asian 6.64
5 East_Asian 1.49
6 Red_Sea 1.33
7 South_Asian 1.13
8 Northeast_African 1.11
9 East_Med 0.85
10 Amerindian 0.36
11 Siberian 0.19


# Population (source) Distance
1 Swedish 4.17
2 North_German 5.73
3 North_Swedish 6.45
4 Norwegian 6.66
5 Danish 7.3
6 North_Dutch 7.54
7 East_German 9.32
8 Orcadian 9.57
9 Irish 9.99
10 Austrian 10.45
11 Southeast_English 10.93
12 West_Scottish 10.99
13 South_Dutch 11.74
14 West_German 11.85
15 Southwest_English 12.04
16 Southwest_Finnish 13.62
17 Hungarian 13.89
18 South_Polish 16.02
19 Polish 17.59
20 French 17.82

[Peterski]

How can this sample be modeled in Global25? Has anyone checked it?

[Dick]

What the hell was he doing In Slovakia

[Peterski]

What the hell was he doing In Slovakia

Slovakia was largely Celto-Germanic (plus some Free Dacians) before Slavic expansion.

[Token]

He probably got some Slavic ancestry.

[Peterski]

He probably got some Slavic ancestry.

Yeah it looks like it. But how is it possible? He is dated to 4th century AD. Not too early for Slavs in Slovakia?

[Freeroostah]

What the hell was he doing In Slovakia

Countries like Slovakia, Bohemia, Ukraine, Poland, and Hungary were once Germanic lands (before Attila's arrival)

[Peterski]

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +25% Polish +25% Southwest_French @ 1.924935

^^^
He looks 50% Germanic + 25% Slavic + 25% Celtic. I can understand Celtic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotini - the Cotini were a Celtic tribe in Slovakia

[Token]

Yeah it looks like it. But how is it possible? He is dated to 4th century AD. Not too early for Slavs in Slovakia?

Yes, too early. The only realistic place that Germans could have gotten Slavic admixture at this time is around the Vistula river. Do we know his tribal affiliation?

[Leto]

East Germanics were probably never like modern Norwegians or Dutch to begin with.

[Voskos]

Looks like germans were going around looking for trouble with soviets.

[Dick]

If this sample was before the Huns then he was probably a Lombard

[Lucas]

It is in G25 since months...

[Peterski]

Do we know his tribal affiliation?

Mlukas thinks that he was a Vandal who migrated to Slovakia from the north (from Poland). I don't remember what evidence he has for such theory.

Anyway, it is this grave: https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/01/1600-year-old-roman-game-board-found-in.html#suO3sbJ64ZYIApcR.97


It is in G25 since months...

Yes, in G25 it can be modeled as 50% Norwegian + 25% French + 25% Polish. But Open Genomes was uploading it several times, "fixing" results: :)

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=184053&view=findpost&p=1729885

^^^
For example, it was previously uploaded as kit Z371280 but they deleted it and re-uploaded a slimmed down version with fewer SNPs... I wonder why.

They kept re-uploading it at least three times, until they "got rid" of Alan, Slavic and Celtic results. :) My upload has the highest number of SNPs.

[Lucas]

You have some kind of paranoia. Yes, "they" edited genome to annoy you:) :picard2:

G25 full spreadsheet (SCALED)

Dutch 2.180573
England_IA 2.225528
German 2.294073
Beaker_Czech 2.404242
Beaker_Bavaria 2.497471
English 2.658967
Welsh 2.694255
Scottish 2.699969
Shetlandic 2.746679
English_Cornwall 2.750643

nMonte3 pen=0.001

Dutch,29.2
England_IA,21.6
German,10.6
Halberstadt_LBA,7
Norwegian,5
England_LBA,4
Hungary_Medieval_Szolad,2.4
Petrovka_MLBA,2.4
Shetlandic,2.4
Slovakian,1.4
England_Anglo-Saxon,1.2
Nordic_LN,1.2
Wales_CA_EBA,1.2
French_East,1
Beaker_France_South,0.8
Belgian,0.8
Beaker_Hungary,0.6
Hungarian,0.6
Baden_LCA,0.4
Mentese_N,0.4
Montenegrin,0.4
Poltavka_o,0.4
Spanish_Galicia,0.4
Balkans_N,0.2
Beaker_Poland,0.2
Czech_EBA_o,0.2
Czech_MN,0.2
Estonian,0.2
Germany_Roman,0.2
Globular_Amphora_Ukraine,0.2
Greek,0.2
Hungary_Medieval,0.2
Hungary_Medieval_Szolad_o1,0.2
Iberia_Central_CA,0.2
Iberia_N,0.2
Italian_Bergamo,0.2
Macedonian,0.2
Minoan_Lasithi,0.2
Scotland_N,0.2
Scythian_Moldova,0.2
Scythian_ZevakinoChilikta,0.2
Spain_LNCA,0.2
Spanish_Baleares,0.2
Spanish_Cataluna,0.2
Tisza_LN,0.2
Ukraine_N_o,0.2


nMonte3 pen=0


Petrovka_MLBA,23.6
Shetlandic,19.6
Wales_CA_EBA,18.6
England_Anglo-Saxon,10.6
Sweden_N,10.6
Slovakian,10.4
Boncuklu_N,5.2
Mlabri,0.6
Lebbo,0.4
Papuan,0.2
Poltavka_o,0.2


If someone has edited spreadsheet with moderns only, please do it (scaled).


Poprad_Medieval,0.125205,0.132019,0.059962,0.04199 ,0.043393,0.015897,-0.000235,0.005077,0.001227,0.002551,-0.002436,0.006744,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.009365,0.016043,0.001825,-0.001774,0.005405,-0.004002,0.001373,0.002968,-0.001232,0.016026,-0.001078

[Peterski]

Here is the best quality genome for Poprad DA119 (highest number of SNPs in K36):

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/SAMEA1069101

[Peterski]

You have some kind of paranoia

LOL, maybe you have it?

It scores Slavic and Celtic (French & Scottish) admixtures in Global25 (just like on GEDmatch from my upload!):

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=184053&view=findpost&p=1730839

"distance%=2.0792"

Poprad: DA119

Norwegian,32.2
German,27.2
Scottish,25.8
Slovakian,4.6
French_East,2.6
Cossack_Kuban,1.4
Shetlandic,1

^^^ But you claimed that such results are "because of Vandal ancestry of modern Slovaks". Your comment: :)


Wynik 4,6% współczesnej Słowacji według mnie oznacza wandalskie dziedzictwo u nich:)

:picard1:

[Voskos]

I'm Polak the sailor man, I'm Polak the sailor man...

[Dick]

LOL, maybe you have it?

It scores Slavic and Celtic (French & Scottish) admixtures in Global25 (just like on GEDmatch from my upload!):

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=184053&view=findpost&p=1730839

"distance%=2.0792"

Poprad: DA119

Norwegian,32.2
German,27.2
Scottish,25.8
Slovakian,4.6
French_East,2.6
Cossack_Kuban,1.4
Shetlandic,1

^^^ But you claimed that such results are "because of Vandal ancestry of modern Slovaks". Your comment: :)



:picard1:

Dziedictwo means ancestry? xD

[Lucas]

LOL, maybe you have it?

It scores Slavic and Celtic (French & Scottish) admixtures in Global25 (just like on GEDmatch from my upload!):

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=184053&view=findpost&p=1730839

"distance%=2.0792"

Poprad: DA119

Norwegian,32.2
German,27.2
Scottish,25.8
Slovakian,4.6
French_East,2.6
Cossack_Kuban,1.4
Shetlandic,1

^^^ But you claimed that such results are "because of Vandal ancestry of modern Slovaks". Your comment: :)



:picard1:

It scores Slavic ???? :)

Slavic = 6% :picard2:

Very substantial admixture indeed.

[Peterski]

It scores Slavic ???? :)

Slavic = 6%
:picard2:

You forgot about German Average (27% in that model) which contains some Slavic because it is not just West German.

GEDmatch models this sample as Norwegian + French + Polish mix. Norwegians are not part-Slavic, but Germans are.

[Lucas]

You forgot about German Average (27% in that model) which contains some Slavic because it is not just West German.

GEDmatch models this sample as Norwegian + French + Polish mix. Norwegians are not part-Slavic, but Germans are.

YOU ARE DEFEATED... :)

[Cumansky]

You forgot about German Average (27% in that model) which contains some Slavic because it is not just West German.

GEDmatch models this sample as Norwegian + French + Polish mix. Norwegians are not part-Slavic, but Germans are.

Peterski can you use your nerd skills to create PCA chart for Poland, will be appreciated

Or if you don't want, then I will make myself but I I will put your kits there and label them (Peterski Krabat 1,2,etc)

[War Chef]

What culture is he affiliated with prezworsk? I'm sure chernyakhov culture results will be similar..... Still waiting for polish archaeologists to go to ukraina and sample some bones.

[Venethi]

“He spent a significant part of his short life in the Mediterranean region,” Pieta said, as quoted by SITA. “We know it thanks to isotope analysis that revealed his eating habits and those are Mediterranean. It is possible that he was part of an imperial Roman court or served in the Roman army as a prominent officer,” he added, as quoted by SITA

https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22202489/virus-probably-killed-prince-from-matejovce-1600-years-ago.html

[noricum]

Yeah it looks like it. But how is it possible? He is dated to 4th century AD. Not too early for Slavs in Slovakia?

Pterski, take a look at Rise479 from Vatya Hungary 1AD below, he was "Slavic" 2000 years ago already, just like most Skythian samples we have even 600 years before.

Rise479
1. Polish (15.15)
2. South_Polish (15.39)
3. Russian_Smolensk (15.98)
4. Croatian (16.61)
5. Belorussian (16.69)
6. Ukrainian_Lviv (16.71)
7. Estonian_Polish (16.90)
8. Ukrainian (16.91)

Did you think Slavs spread over an somehow empty Eastern and Central Eastern Europe within 150 years with every woman having 50+ children on average?

[SharpFork]

Pterski, take a look at Rise479 from Vatya Hungary 1AD below, he was "Slavic" 2000 years ago already, just like most Skythian samples we have even 600 years before.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean, someone being more Eastern-shifted doesn't means Slavs were around Hungary during this time.



Did you think Slavs spread over an somehow empty Eastern and Central Eastern Europe within 150 years with every woman having 50+ children on average?
What "somehow"? Ever heard of the migration period? Of the late antique little ice age? Of the fall of the Western Roman Empire? Of the Avars? Slavs encountered a largely underpopulated region and took advantage of efficient agricultural technique to create a system parallel to the Steppe-Byzantine paradigm, plus we don't have many records of the process so we can't say for sure how quick it really was. Plus obviously the Slavs incorporated many people in the Balkan region which would have been the one with most people anyway.

I guess though Slavs were always around the corner, right in front of the Romans and yet nobody recorded them and they left no linguistic evidence of their presence in any kind of form nor where they affected by Celtic or Latin populations either.

[tipirneni]

Using 100/1cM I am matching few segments mostly in Baltic part with this sample
Largest segment = 2.6 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 8.2 cM (0.228 Pct)
5 shared segments found for this comparison.
338432 SNPs used for this comparison.

[tipirneni]

Pterski, take a look at Rise479 from Vatya Hungary 1AD below, he was "Slavic" 2000 years ago already, just like most Skythian samples we have even 600 years before.

Rise479
1. Polish (15.15)
2. South_Polish (15.39)
3. Russian_Smolensk (15.98)
4. Croatian (16.61)
5. Belorussian (16.69)
6. Ukrainian_Lviv (16.71)
7. Estonian_Polish (16.90)
8. Ukrainian (16.91)

Did you think Slavs spread over an somehow empty Eastern and Central Eastern Europe within 150 years with every woman having 50+ children on average?

Early Indo-aryan spread in South Asia there were many legends & stories of 100+ sons for warrior kings. So 50 is not a big number for a well bred family

[noricum]

Not sure what this is supposed to mean, someone being more Eastern-shifted doesn't means Slavs were around Hungary during this time.

Thats exactly what it I meant. Just as Rise479 looks slavic, but most likely wastn't very likely the same is true for the Chieftain from Poprad.

[QUOTE=SharpFork;6262368] Ever heard of the migration period? Of the late antique little ice age? Of the fall of the Western Roman Empire?

The migration period stated in 379AD ,at 600AD the arrided in the eastern Alps inassociation with the Avars. In theese 221 years in between the seem to have absorbed, or assimilated, many Eastern Eurpean enthicities which were genetically very similar to them in the first place. It is just not possible to grow from a small group, largely unknown to the Romans, into the rulers of vast spaces of Eastern Europe but without a huge degree of assimilation of other, as I stated genetically similar, groups. Anciet reports say that slavs tendedt to treat their former enemies exceptionally well, which supports the theory of large scale assimilation. Also the most accepted theory about the meaning of Slavs (those who speak the language) supports ths assimilation theory.

[SharpFork]

Thats exactly what it I meant. Just as Rise479 looks slavic, but most likely wastn't very likely the same is true for the Chieftain from Poprad.
Same? I mean in this case it's a German looking person from Slovakia and we know Germans were around the place at the time, it would fit.


The migration period stated in 379AD ,at 600AD the arrided in the eastern Alps inassociation with the Avars. In theese 221 years in between the seem to have absorbed, or assimilated, many Eastern Eurpean enthicities which were genetically very similar to them in the first place.
I guess beyond the Carpatians that's the case, though I'd argue that overall the fact there was important depopulation in territories that already did not have that many people allowed them to move in without having to mix too much in the northern regions, AFAIK there was also this study indicating that the middle Oder region in Germany was depopulated up to 700AD. I'm not sure though how the population in Dacia, Pannonia, Poland, Slovakia or Bohemia was genetically.


It is just not possible to grow from a small group, largely unknown to the Romans, into the rulers of vast spaces of Eastern Europe but without a huge degree of assimilation of other, as I stated genetically similar, groups. Anciet reports say that slavs tendedt to treat their former enemies exceptionally well, which supports the theory of large scale assimilation. Also the most accepted theory about the meaning of Slavs (those who speak the language) supports ths assimilation theory.
True but at the same time they did have an impact on the Southern Balkans which we can more or less estimate, if they had such an impact on the relatively more populated Balkans(where many Romance, Albanian and Greek minorities survived all around the entire region) I imagine there was a stronger impact in Western Slavic territory.

[JamesBond007]

Bump diddily bump bump bumpity bump !



How can this sample be modeled in Global25? Has anyone checked it?


Target: SVK_Poprad_MA: DA119
Distance: 2.3970% / 0.02396970 | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.0 Scandinavia
23.4 Germany
9.6 Balkans
3.0 South_Italy
1.0 South_Africa

Distance to: SVK_Poprad_MA: DA119
0.02795714 Germany
0.03137087 Scandinavia
0.03339014 Great_Britain
0.03439411 Ireland
0.03796070 North_France
etc....

http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/MODERN%20EUROPE%20G25%202.0.htm

I think he is the only sample in the poprad sample so I can model mysef with him like so :

KevinG_scaled
Distance: 1.9624% / 0.01962356
42.8 England_IA
32.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
25.2 SVK_Poprad_MA


I did map my genes ancient version at sequencing.com and it differs from G25 it gives me this guy as my number one closest match :

1.)DA119.SG DA119.SG Slovakia_Poprad.SG Europe Slovakia 200-500 CE @ 0.196482
2.)vik_84005.SG vik_84005.SG Sweden_Viking.SG Sigtuna, cemetery 1 (Nunnnan) Sweden 900-1200 CE @ 0.270297
3.)NO3423.SG NO3423.SG England_Saxon.SG Norton, Teeside, Yorkshire Great Britain 650-910 CE @ 0.422236
4.)STR220c.SG STR220c.SG Germany_Early_Medieval.SG Bavaria, Straubing- Bajuwarenstra Germany 480-530 CE (based on grave finds and associated direct dates) @ 0.423970