Are Pontids, Gracile-meds And Atlanto-meds The Same Phenotype?

[Joso]

Metrically these three are very similar with atlanto-meds being only a little less gracile than the other two.

[tipirneni]

Pontids have some Steppe R1a kind mix not found in other two.

[The Blade]

No and differences are obvious.
Atlanto-Med = ortho- to mildly hypsicranic, tall or average height, narrow forehead of average height, any eye colour possible though brown appears to be most common, long-faced, large dimensions of skull, often with prominent browridge, typically robust chin, dolicho- to mesocephalic. Some have CM element making them squarer in appearance.
Pontid - hypsicranic, different slope of the occiput that is less sharp, average height or tall, broader and higher forehead than Atlanto-Med, mesocephalic to dolichocephalic, weak chin, weaker to no browridge, brown-eyed by default, quite thin lips. Almost never CM admixed, the rest are exceptions.
Gracile Med - short height, chamaecranic, brown-eyed by default, very delicate build, no browridge, very weak chin, pedomorphic, protruding eyes, small dimensions of cranium, face usually narrow but not long in terms of absolute dimensions, normally quite dolicho but sometimes mesocephalic, too.

[Joso]

No and differences are obvious.
Atlanto-Med = ortho- to mildly hypsicranic, tall or average height, narrow forehead of average height, any eye colour possible though brown appears to be most common, long-faced, large dimensions of skull, often with prominent browridge, typically robust chin, dolicho- to mesocephalic. Some have CM element making them squarer in appearance.
Pontid - hypsicranic, different slope of the occiput that is less sharp, average height or tall, broader and higher forehead than Atlanto-Med, mesocephalic to dolichocephalic, weak chin, weaker to no browridge, brown-eyed by default, quite thin lips. Almost never CM admixed, the rest are exceptions.
Gracile Med - short height, chamaecranic, brown-eyed by default, very delicate build, no browridge, very weak chin, pedomorphic, protruding eyes, small dimensions of cranium, face usually narrow but not long in terms of absolute dimensions, normally quite dolicho but sometimes mesocephalic, too.

But then why they are metrically so close?

[The Blade]

But then why they are metrically so close?
Gracile Meds are not close to the other two.
The other two share some similarities but there are also clear differences I pointed out.
Similarities come from being Caucasoid Aurignacids.
Atlantos, Pontics, Irano-Afghans and Nordic types have certain traits in common but differences between all of these also exist.

[Knight Slayer]

Gracile-Mediterranean first appeared in 1900 as an "Ibero-Insular" type. It's a pure Mediterranean. Small in stature, meek looking, no strength is betrayed in the phenotype, features are somewhat soft and "blunted" compared to it's taller, stronger, sharper, seafaring warrior race continent conquering counterpart, the Atlanto-Mediterranean.

It was well known that Atlanto-Mediterraneans have consisted of the nobility in the Mediterranean countries, with the stubborn but sturdy Alpines and the rodent reminiscent Gracile-Mediterraneans below them.

Pontid is a strange type. Originally called Pontic-Mediterranean by Coon, it describes a dark Eastern European type especially present in the surrounding Black Sea region. IT IS VERY similar to the Atlanto-Mediterranean type as Coon notes. They are NOT closely related to other EE types such as Baltics or Neo-Danubians, as Coon also notes.

Here's what Coon had to say about "Pontids":


Along the northern and western shores of the Black Sea are found, among other populations, brunet Mediterraneans of a generalized type, called Pontic by the Russian anthropologists, who are usually of medium to tall stature and who seem related on the one hand to the Atlanto-Mediterraneans and on the other to the long-faced Mediterranean prototype of Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Inland from the Black Sea shores they are found sporadically in Russia, Poland, and the countries along the upper course of the Danube. They also seem to form an early population level in Serbia and Albania. Their precise archaeological history has not yet been traced, and their relationship to the Danubian invaders of central Europe at the beginning of the local Neolithic is unknown. They do not, however, conform closely to the physical type of the early Danubians as known to us by a small series of skeletal remains. Much more work needs to be done in southeastern Europe before their historical position and relationships can be established.

Some of you may have noticed I refer to many dark EE as Atlanto-Mediterranean, or just Mediterranean, because I think their isn't a strong basis for the Pontid type, which Coon himself even admits.

[Livin]

No and differences are obvious.
Atlanto-Med = ortho- to mildly hypsicranic, tall or average height, narrow forehead of average height, any eye colour possible though brown appears to be most common, long-faced, large dimensions of skull, often with prominent browridge, typically robust chin, dolicho- to mesocephalic. Some have CM element making them squarer in appearance.
Pontid - hypsicranic, different slope of the occiput that is less sharp, average height or tall, broader and higher forehead than Atlanto-Med, mesocephalic to dolichocephalic, weak chin, weaker to no browridge, brown-eyed by default, quite thin lips. Almost never CM admixed, the rest are exceptions.
Gracile Med - short height, chamaecranic, brown-eyed by default, very delicate build, no browridge, very weak chin, pedomorphic, protruding eyes, small dimensions of cranium, face usually narrow but not long in terms of absolute dimensions, normally quite dolicho but sometimes mesocephalic, too.

Full lips can be found among Meds?I am Pontid and i have full lips.It might be a foreign trait?

[Token]

They are metrically extremely close to each other, it is literally impossible to differentiate them solely by visual inspection. Note that i'm talking about actual Gracile and Atlantic Mediterraneans, not the anthrofora pseudo types invented by Agrippa.

[Dna8]

Gracile-Mediterranean first appeared in 1900 as an "Ibero-Insular" type. It's a pure Mediterranean. Small in stature, meek looking, no strength is betrayed in the phenotype, features are somewhat soft and "blunted" compared to it's taller, stronger, sharper, seafaring warrior race continent conquering counterpart, the Atlanto-Mediterranean.

It was well known that Atlanto-Mediterraneans have consisted of the nobility in the Mediterranean countries, with the stubborn but sturdy Alpines and the rodent reminiscent Gracile-Mediterraneans below them.

Pontid is a strange type. Originally called Pontic-Mediterranean by Coon, it describes a dark Eastern European type especially present in the surrounding Black Sea region. IT IS VERY similar to the Atlanto-Mediterranean type as Coon notes. They are NOT closely related to other EE types such as Baltics or Neo-Danubians, as Coon also notes.

Here's what Coon had to say about "Pontids":



Some of you may have noticed I refer to many dark EE as Atlanto-Mediterranean, or just Mediterranean, because I think their isn't a strong basis for the Pontid type, which Coon himself even admits.

Nice post, save for aspects of the characterization of the types.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Just local variations of same principal type which is Med.

[Dna8]

No and differences are obvious.
Atlanto-Med = ortho- to mildly hypsicranic, tall or average height, narrow forehead of average height, any eye colour possible though brown appears to be most common, long-faced, large dimensions of skull, often with prominent browridge, typically robust chin, dolicho- to mesocephalic. Some have CM element making them squarer in appearance.
Pontid - hypsicranic, different slope of the occiput that is less sharp, average height or tall, broader and higher forehead than Atlanto-Med, mesocephalic to dolichocephalic, weak chin, weaker to no browridge, brown-eyed by default, quite thin lips. Almost never CM admixed, the rest are exceptions.
Gracile Med - short height, chamaecranic, brown-eyed by default, very delicate build, no browridge, very weak chin, pedomorphic, protruding eyes, small dimensions of cranium, face usually narrow but not long in terms of absolute dimensions, normally quite dolicho but sometimes mesocephalic, too.

Nice post

[The Blade]

Full lips can be found among Meds?I am Pontid and i have full lips.It might be a foreign trait?
To me you, dude, are more robust facially and in terms of cranium than Pontic Mediterraneans.
Somewhere in the so-called East Mediterranean spectrum.
What I can say is you are a common type among Greeks I have met which also exists in areas like Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania, to name a few.

[Knight Slayer]

Nice post

Yes it is great! Unfortunately I tend to be biased toward Atlanto-Mediterraneans... Instead of subscribing to Nordicism like some people do, I subscribe to Atlanto-Mediterraneanism. :)

[Livin]

Can somebody tell me if full lips can be a med trait?I am mostly med with some taurid features but i got full lips.

84915

[The Blade]

Another thing that should be noted is Atlanto-Mediterranean type is much more common throughout Europe than is Pontic.
Large states like Spain, France and Italy have a lot of Atlanto-Meds but almost no Pontids.
Even in Southeastern Europe Atlanto-Mediterraneans prevail over Pontids.
Here's a map of anthropological types of the Bulgarian population created by anthropologist/scientist Petar Boev in 1972 (Source: Р. Boev. Die Rassentypen der Balkanhalbinsel und der Ostägäischen Inselwelt und deren Bedeutung für die Herkunft ihrer Bevölkerung. S., 1972). Each sign shows predominance of the respective phenotype in the corresponding area.
In red: Atlanto-Mediterranean
In blue: Northern types and Northern admixed ones (Nordids, Northern Cromagnids, Norids, Sub-Nordids, Nordo-Mediterranids, etc.)
In green: Pure Dinarids
In violet: Pontic Mediterranean
In yellow: Mongoloid influenced types (East Baltids, Turanids, etc.). They were said to be presented among Bulgarians of the Shopluk region, as well as among Bulgarian Turks from the Eastern Rhodope mountains and Dobrudja.
Here is the map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Racial_and_anthropological_types_in_Bulgaria.jpg
As you can see, Atlantos prevail over Pontids in Bulgaria though both exist in good amounts.
Boev again:
https://i.imgur.com/RD5VjqP.jpg
Carleton Coon also saw Atlanto-Mediterranean as the main element here:
"The Bulgarians are a composite people, with the following racial elements easily discernible: (a) a medium to tall-statured Atlanto-Mediterranean; (b) a partially blond Neo-Danubian, of typical snub-nosed form; (c) a Nordic; (d) a Dinaric, with the usual Alpine corollary; (e) a brachycephalic central Asiatic Turkish or Tatar form"

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

To me you, dude, are more robust facially and in terms of cranium than Pontic Mediterraneans.
Somewhere in the so-called East Mediterranean spectrum.
What I can say is you are a common type among Greeks I have met which also exists in areas like Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania, to name a few.

I remember you classified me as Atlantid + Dinarid, but most others classify my Med part as Pontid because I look quite eastern for some reason and lack CM admixture.
Even though I think I look quite Pan-European not only eastern.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes it is great! Unfortunately I tend to be biased toward Atlanto-Mediterraneans... Instead of subscribing to Nordicism like some people do, I subscribe to Atlanto-Mediterraneanism. :)

Why? are you a lover of Spanish or what?

[Knight Slayer]

Why? are you a lover of Spanish or what?

My wife is Atlanto-Mediterranean by phenotype, and I love her, so yes!

[Cristiano viejo]

My wife is Atlanto-Mediterranean by phenotype, and I love her, so yes!

Your wife is Spanish??

[Knight Slayer]

Your wife is Spanish??

Not quite. She is Italian-American. I love Spanish. I love Italians. I love all Mediterraneans.

[Cristiano viejo]

Not quite. She is Italian-American. I love Spanish. I love Italians. I love all Mediterraneans.

:dizzy:

[PT Tagus]

Not quite. She is Italian-American. I love Spanish. I love Italians. I love all Mediterraneans.

:thumb001:

[Zroota]

No and differences are obvious.
Atlanto-Med = ortho- to mildly hypsicranic, tall or average height, narrow forehead of average height, any eye colour possible though brown appears to be most common, long-faced, large dimensions of skull, often with prominent browridge, typically robust chin, dolicho- to mesocephalic. Some have CM element making them squarer in appearance.
Pontid - hypsicranic, different slope of the occiput that is less sharp, average height or tall, broader and higher forehead than Atlanto-Med, mesocephalic to dolichocephalic, weak chin, weaker to no browridge, brown-eyed by default, quite thin lips. Almost never CM admixed, the rest are exceptions.
Gracile Med - short height, chamaecranic, brown-eyed by default, very delicate build, no browridge, very weak chin, pedomorphic, protruding eyes, small dimensions of cranium, face usually narrow but not long in terms of absolute dimensions, normally quite dolicho but sometimes mesocephalic, too.
Good descriptions there. How would you describe East-Med (since you classified me as such and I'm curious to know)? :)

[The Blade]

Good descriptions there. How would you describe East-Med (since you classified me as such and I'm curious to know)? :)
East Med isn't a single type but a continuum of mostly robust Mediterraneans.
Dolicho- to mesocephalic with stronger browridge than Pontid, high forehead, straight or often convex nose, robust chin, full lips.
Certain traits vary in their expression from what I have seen - some looks are more Balkan, others more Turkish.
Certain Semitic sublooks more robust than Arabid are also native to the East Mediterranean region but those don't really fit in Europe.