Balts closer to proto-Slavs than modern Slavs ?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Discuss.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif

[Peterski]

Discuss.

I don't know but "Golden Horde European", from Kazakhstan, years 1260-1370 AD, is closer to Balts than to Slavs:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#14/47.1390/65.6275

Karasuyr, Burial 5, Bedpakdala, Karasuyr Kazakhstan Central Steppe, Male, R1a-YP575:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP575/

DA29 GoldenHordeEuro, Geographical coordinates: 46,9972222222 66,2858333333

https://i.imgur.com/Yb5DHKO.png

^^^ His Eurogenes K13 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 55.9
2 North_Atlantic 27.04
3 West_Med 10.14
4 West_Asian 3.23
5 East_Med 2.9
6 Red_Sea 0.54
7 Amerindian 0.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Lithuanian 4.2
2 Estonian_Polish 6.71
3 Belorussian 7.03
4 Russian_Smolensk 7.42
5 Estonian 8.84
6 Southwest_Russian 9.34
7 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.72
8 Polish 10
9 Kargopol_Russian 10.69
10 Erzya 11.55
11 Ukrainian 11.78
12 East_Finnish 12.5
13 Finnish 13.02
14 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.37
15 South_Polish 13.41
16 Southwest_Finnish 16.08
17 Croatian 19.31
18 La_Brana-1 21.15
19 Moldavian 22.22
20 Hungarian 23.24

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98.5% Lithuanian + 1.5% Sardinian @ 4.09
2 99.6% Lithuanian + 0.4% Cyprian @ 4.19
3 99.6% Lithuanian + 0.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.19
4 99.5% Lithuanian + 0.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.2
5 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Samaritan @ 4.2
6 99.5% Lithuanian + 0.5% Bulgarian @ 4.2
7 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.2
8 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Ashkenazi @ 4.2
9 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Central_Greek @ 4.2
10 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% Italian_Jewish @ 4.2
11 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% East_Sicilian @ 4.2
12 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% South_Italian @ 4.2
13 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% Moroccan @ 4.2
14 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% Tunisian @ 4.2
15 98.7% Lithuanian + 1.3% Estonian_Polish @ 4.2
16 99.9% Lithuanian + 0.1% Mozabite_Berber @ 4.2
17 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Ukrainian @ 4.2
18 100% Lithuanian + 0% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.2
19 100% Lithuanian + 0% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.2
20 100% Lithuanian + 0% West_Sicilian @ 4.2

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Strange.

[Peterski]

Strange.

I have some theories about his ethnicity which I've already shared with a few users, but I'm curious about your opinions.

What was a genetically Lithuanian-like person doing in the middle of Kazakhstan's Steppe in late 1200s or early 1300s?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I have some theories about his ethnicity which I've already shared with a few users, but I'm curious about your opinions.

What was a genetically Lithuanian-like person doing in the middle of Kazakhstan's Steppe in late 1200s or early 1300s?

It would be logical it was ethnic Russian, no ?
Maybe Russians were genetically Baltic before mixing with foreigners. That would fuel this idea proto-Slavs were closest to modern day Balts.

[Peterski]

It would be logical it was ethnic Russian, no?

I was told that his Y-DNA subclade - R1a-YP575 - is of Baltic (not Slavic) origin, even though it is also common among modern Belarusians etc.

See this subclade on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP575/

[Smaug]

I have some theories about his ethnicity which I've already shared with a few users, but I'm curious about your opinions.

What was a genetically Lithuanian-like person doing in the middle of Kazakhstan's Steppe in late 1200s or early 1300s?

Impressive. Galindians were quite an easternly Baltic tribe, but reached just as far as the Koluga Oblast. To find such a person in Kazakhstan is really impressive.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I was told that his Y-DNA subclade - R1a-YP575 - is of Baltic (not Slavic) origin, even though it is also common among modern Belarusians etc.

See this subclade on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP575/

How can be explained so much N1c among Balts ? In autosomal DNA they have less mongoloid DNA than most Slavs.

[Peterski]

Impressive. Galindians were quite an easternly Baltic tribe

There was supposedly a Baltic tribe called Goliadz or Goladz living in the middle of Russia, see the map below:

https://i.imgur.com/7Jw4l16.png

^^^
But how do we know that DA29 was from there, and not from Balts in more western areas at the Baltic Sea?


How can be explained so much N1c among Balts ? In autosomal DNA they have less mongoloid DNA than most Slavs.

When you compare Bronze Age Lithuanians (they were all R1a) and Medieval Lithuanian (sample DA171, he was N1c), then you can see that Medieval Lithuanian had some extra admixture from a Karelian-like or a Mordvin-like source. So probably Balts got N1c from Ugro-Finns or some population related to Ugro-Finns:

https://i.postimg.cc/cHf9qL6b/Screen-Hunter-2663-Jan-14-15-14.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/fb1z2B0v/Screen-Hunter-2664-Jan-14-15-16.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/VvqjgKDS/Screen-Hunter-2665-Jan-14-15-18.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/nzBXvChT/Screen-Hunter-2667-Jan-14-15-25.jpg

https://youtu.be/0x_wUQKvosM?t=6515 (https://youtu.be/0x_wUQKvosM?t=6515)

[Smaug]

There was supposedly a Baltic tribe called Goliadz or Goladz living in the middle of Russia, see the map below:

https://i.imgur.com/7Jw4l16.png

^^^
But how do we know that DA29 was from there, and not from Balts in more western areas at the Baltic Sea?



When you compare Bronze Age Lithuanians (they were all R1a) and Medieval Lithuanian (sample DA171, he was N1c), then you can see that Medieval Lithuanian had some extra admixture from a Karelian-like or a Mordvin-like source. So probably Balts got N1c from Ugro-Finns or some population related to Ugro-Finns:

https://i.postimg.cc/cHf9qL6b/Screen-Hunter-2663-Jan-14-15-14.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/fb1z2B0v/Screen-Hunter-2664-Jan-14-15-16.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/VvqjgKDS/Screen-Hunter-2665-Jan-14-15-18.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/nzBXvChT/Screen-Hunter-2667-Jan-14-15-25.jpg

https://youtu.be/0x_wUQKvosM?t=6515

Yes, those are the Galindians, the tribe I was talking about.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Balts score higher values for both Baltic and Eastern Euro admixture on gedmatch, compared with Slavs.

[Voskos]

I had a slovenian serb friend on this forum but he aint posting no more. He used to refer to baltid phenotype as Balpigtid.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Balts score higher values for both Baltic and Eastern Euro admixture on gedmatch, compared with Slavs.

And northern Euro is not strange for them, especially Latvians. Most of Latvians has some (even recent) ancestor from Sweden.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

And northern Euro is not strange for them, especially Latvians. Most of Latvians has some (even recent) ancestor from Sweden.

Really ? On gedmatch they don't show Scandinavian shift

1 Baltic 33.16
2 North_Sea 27.77
3 Eastern_Euro 25.41
4 Atlantic 10
5 West_Med 2.79
6 Oceanian 0.68
7 Siberian 0.12
8 Sub-Saharan 0.03
9 West_Asian 0.03


1 80.6% Estonian + 19.4% Erzya @ 7.45
2 71.9% Estonian + 28.1% Lithuanian @ 7.53
3 94.2% Estonian + 5.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.84
4 94.7% Estonian + 5.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.84
5 94% Estonian + 6% Southwest_Russian @ 7.84
6 99.2% Estonian + 0.8% Chuvash @ 7.85
7 99.9% Estonian + 0.1% Estonian_Polish @ 7.8

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 39.74
2 Eastern_Euro 24.61
3 North_Sea 18.28
4 Atlantic 11.86
5 East_Med 2.8
6 West_Med 1.41
7 South_Asian 1.21
8 Northeast_African 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

1 Lithuanian 6.14
2 Belorussian 9.42
3 Estonian_Polish 9.95
4 Southwest_Russian 10.61
5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.2
6 Russian_Smolensk 11.77
7 Estonian 12.5
8 Erzya 13.26
9 Polish 13.63
10 Kargopol_Russian 14.17
11 Ukrainian 14.38
12 South_Polish 14.99
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.13
14 East_Finnish 18.89
15 Croatian 20.38
16 Finnish 20.51
17 Moldavian 21.85
18 La_Brana-1 21.92
19 Southwest_Finnish 22.36
20 Hungarian 23.23

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 91.5% Lithuanian + 8.5% Erzya @ 6.04
2 98.8% Lithuanian + 1.2% Mari @ 6.12
3 99.2% Lithuanian + 0.8% MA-1 @ 6.12
4 98.9% Lithuanian + 1.1% Chuvash @ 6.13
5 100% Lithuanian + 0% Abhkasian @ 6.14
6 100% Lithuanian + 0% Adygei @ 6.14
7 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 6.14
8 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 6.14
9 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 6.14
10 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Turkmen @ 6.14
11 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 6.14
12 100% Lithuanian + 0% Algerian @ 6.14
13 100% Lithuanian + 0% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.14
14 100% Lithuanian + 0% Altaian @ 6.14
15 100% Lithuanian + 0% Anzick-1 @ 6.14
16 100% Lithuanian + 0% Armenian @ 6.14
17 100% Lithuanian + 0% Ashkenazi @ 6.14
18 100% Lithuanian + 0% Assyrian @ 6.14
19 100% Lithuanian + 0% Austrian @ 6.14
20 100% Lithuanian + 0% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 6.14

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Really ? On gedmatch they don't show Scandinavian shift

1 Baltic 33.16
2 North_Sea 27.77
3 Eastern_Euro 25.41
4 Atlantic 10
5 West_Med 2.79
6 Oceanian 0.68
7 Siberian 0.12
8 Sub-Saharan 0.03
9 West_Asian 0.03


1 80.6% Estonian + 19.4% Erzya @ 7.45
2 71.9% Estonian + 28.1% Lithuanian @ 7.53
3 94.2% Estonian + 5.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.84
4 94.7% Estonian + 5.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.84
5 94% Estonian + 6% Southwest_Russian @ 7.84
6 99.2% Estonian + 0.8% Chuvash @ 7.85
7 99.9% Estonian + 0.1% Estonian_Polish @ 7.8

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 39.74
2 Eastern_Euro 24.61
3 North_Sea 18.28
4 Atlantic 11.86
5 East_Med 2.8
6 West_Med 1.41
7 South_Asian 1.21
8 Northeast_African 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

1 Lithuanian 6.14
2 Belorussian 9.42
3 Estonian_Polish 9.95
4 Southwest_Russian 10.61
5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.2
6 Russian_Smolensk 11.77
7 Estonian 12.5
8 Erzya 13.26
9 Polish 13.63
10 Kargopol_Russian 14.17
11 Ukrainian 14.38
12 South_Polish 14.99
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.13
14 East_Finnish 18.89
15 Croatian 20.38
16 Finnish 20.51
17 Moldavian 21.85
18 La_Brana-1 21.92
19 Southwest_Finnish 22.36
20 Hungarian 23.23

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 91.5% Lithuanian + 8.5% Erzya @ 6.04
2 98.8% Lithuanian + 1.2% Mari @ 6.12
3 99.2% Lithuanian + 0.8% MA-1 @ 6.12
4 98.9% Lithuanian + 1.1% Chuvash @ 6.13
5 100% Lithuanian + 0% Abhkasian @ 6.14
6 100% Lithuanian + 0% Adygei @ 6.14
7 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 6.14
8 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 6.14
9 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 6.14
10 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Turkmen @ 6.14
11 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 6.14
12 100% Lithuanian + 0% Algerian @ 6.14
13 100% Lithuanian + 0% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.14
14 100% Lithuanian + 0% Altaian @ 6.14
15 100% Lithuanian + 0% Anzick-1 @ 6.14
16 100% Lithuanian + 0% Armenian @ 6.14
17 100% Lithuanian + 0% Ashkenazi @ 6.14
18 100% Lithuanian + 0% Assyrian @ 6.14
19 100% Lithuanian + 0% Austrian @ 6.14
20 100% Lithuanian + 0% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 6.14

Is that 1 example?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Is that 1 example?

2

[Peterski]

And northern Euro is not strange for them, especially Latvians. Most of Latvians has some (even recent) ancestor from Sweden.

I don't think so, modern Balts are not much different than Bronze Age and Medieval ones:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#5/53.411/24.857

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

moar Latvians

1 Baltic 37.27
2 North_Sea 23.33
3 Eastern_Euro 21.82
4 Atlantic 14.16
5 West_Med 2.9
6 Sub-Saharan 0.31
7 Oceanian 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

1 Lithuanian 3.62
2 Belorussian 7.07
3 Estonian 7.65
4 Estonian_Polish 7.95
5 Southwest_Russian 9.31
6 Russian_Smolensk 9.77
7 Polish 9.93
8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 10.15
9 Ukrainian 11.07
10 South_Polish 11.6
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 11.89
12 Kargopol_Russian 13.31
13 Erzya 13.98
14 East_Finnish 15.82
15 Finnish 16.05
16 Southwest_Finnish 17.66
17 Croatian 18.05
18 La_Brana-1 18.35
19 Hungarian 19.85
20 Moldavian 19.95

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 85.2% Lithuanian + 14.8% Estonian @ 3.42
2 97.8% Lithuanian + 2.2% West_Norwegian @ 3.56
3 97.4% Lithuanian + 2.6% North_Swedish @ 3.57
4 97.7% Lithuanian + 2.3% Swedish @ 3.57
5 98.1% Lithuanian + 1.9% Norwegian @ 3.58
6 97% Lithuanian + 3% Finnish @ 3.59
7 99% Lithuanian + 1% East_Finnish @ 3.62
8 99.3% Lithuanian + 0.7% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.62
9 99.6% Lithuanian + 0.4% North_Dutch @ 3.62
10 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Orcadian @ 3.62

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 36
2 Eastern_Euro 24.67
3 North_Sea 21.22
4 Atlantic 11.69
5 West_Med 3.67
6 West_Asian 1.33
7 Red_Sea 1.11
8 Oceanian 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

1 Lithuanian 4.91
2 Belorussian 7.25
3 Estonian_Polish 7.46
4 Southwest_Russian 8.08
5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 8.73
6 Estonian 9.14
7 Russian_Smolensk 9.52
8 Polish 10.34
9 Ukrainian 10.78
10 Erzya 11.1
11 Kargopol_Russian 11.45
12 South_Polish 11.73
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 11.74
14 East_Finnish 15.48
15 Finnish 16.91
16 Croatian 17.73
17 Southwest_Finnish 18.83
18 Moldavian 19.08
19 La_Brana-1 19.71
20 Hungarian 20.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 79.8% Lithuanian + 20.2% Erzya @ 4.16
2 94.1% Lithuanian + 5.9% Chuvash @ 4.52
3 95.6% Lithuanian + 4.4% Mari @ 4.59
4 86.7% Lithuanian + 13.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 4.64
5 98.2% Lithuanian + 1.8% MA-1 @ 4.82
6 94.5% Lithuanian + 5.5% East_Finnish @ 4.83
7 99.2% Lithuanian + 0.8% Selkup @ 4.87
8 91.8% Lithuanian + 8.2% Southwest_Russian @ 4.87
9 94.5% Lithuanian + 5.5% Ukrainian @ 4.88
10 93.3% Lithuanian + 6.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.88
11 99.1% Lithuanian + 0.9% Shors @ 4.88
12 98% Lithuanian + 2% Tatar @ 4.88
13 99.4% Lithuanian + 0.6% Ket @ 4.89
14 99.5% Lithuanian + 0.5% Hakas @ 4.9
15 96.2% Lithuanian + 3.8% Estonian @ 4.9
16 98.7% Lithuanian + 1.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.91
17 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% Tabassaran @ 4.91

Took them from here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?203471-Lithuanian-Latvian-Finn-Gedmatch-results

[Arhat]

Balts are not closer to Proto-Slavs than modern (north) Slavs. Proto-Slavs already were more southern shifted than Balts because of Cental European admixture from East Germanics (Bastarnae,..) From this source Proto-Slavs maybe also got their I2a-Din.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Balts are not closer to Proto-Slavs than modern (north) Slavs. Proto-Slavs already were more southern shifted than Balts because of Cental European admixture from East Germanics (Bastarnae,..) From this source Proto-Slavs maybe also got their I2a-Din.

Yeah, this make lot of sense. Bastarnae are good candidate for I2-din carriers imo.