Russians/Ukrainians genetically the same.

[Slavic Italian]

Pretty vanilla article but nice read. I want to add I realize there are differences now in culture and in language. This is about genetics.

https://www.fort-russ.com/2016/02/question-closed-dna-analysis-confirms/

[Blondie]

South russians and ukrainians can be same, but north russians are different thing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15974299

Many north russian is just slavized finno-ugrian.

[Slavic Italian]

South russians and ukrainians can be same, but north russians are different thing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15974299

Many north russian is just slavized finno-ugrian.

I have a lot of Slav, Finn, and Turkic but my Y is Slavic R1a1a. These are my average IBD hits per population and these are my highest hits as far as modern populations.

Finnish 6.9837311
Saami 6.8176184
Russian_Central 6.3129655
Cossack_Kuban 6.3128055
Karelian 5.547862
Irish 5.422011
Ukrainian_East 5.1333935
Ukrainian_North 5.0581372
Russian_North 4.5513911

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Even Ukrainians aren't same people. West Ukrainians are different from rest of Ukies (those close to south Russians for sure). Northern Russians are mixed with Finns.

[Proto-Shaman]

I have a lot of Slav, Finn, and Turkic but my Y is Slavic R1a1a.

Your Avatar name is 100% right. Latin and Slavic are very close to each other. Even genetically Balkan Slavs are overlapping with Italians and Romanians. You can see that pattern right through Ukraine and south Russia.

[Arsen_]

I can say nothing about genetics, but judging by appearance, if we exclude so called Southern Russians who are actually Russified Ukrainians then Russians and Ukrainians are very different in looks. At least I can see difference instantly. And for example the Russian person from Nizhny Novgorod looks much closer to Finno Ugric Mordvin or even Volga Tatar than to Ukrainian from say Kharkov let alone to Ukrainian from Western part of Ukraine.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Russians are whiter. Even if more Siberian shifted, and not all. Saw some so exotic Ukrainians that look like Turks and hard-core Balkanites. You won't find Russians like that.

[Aspirin]

Ukrainians and Russians have some differences in phenotype, but genetically, Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians are quite homogenous group, despite being scattered on such big territory.

[Ryuk]

Except Northeast Russian,yes

[Mingle]

I can say nothing about genetics, but judging by appearance, if we exclude so called Southern Russians who are actually Russified Ukrainians then Russians and Ukrainians are very different in looks. At least I can see difference instantly. And for example the Russian person from Nizhny Novgorod looks much closer to Finno Ugric Mordvin or even Volga Tatar than to Ukrainian from say Kharkov let alone to Ukrainian from Western part of Ukraine.

Russified Ukrainians? Ukraine is the newer nation, so Ukrainians would be Ukrainianized southern Russians if anything.

And it's weird for you to treat northern Russians as the "original Russians" when they're the ones that have less Slavic and more Uralic admixture than their southern counterparts.

[Mingle]

Not only Russians and Ukrainians. Russians (excluding some northerners), Ukrainians, Sorbs, and Poles (except for northeastern Poles & maybe Silesians) are all autosomally very similar to each other.

[Cumansky]

I can say nothing about genetics, but judging by appearance, if we exclude so called Southern Russians who are actually Russified Ukrainians then Russians and Ukrainians are very different in looks. At least I can see difference instantly. And for example the Russian person from Nizhny Novgorod looks much closer to Finno Ugric Mordvin or even Volga Tatar than to Ukrainian from say Kharkov let alone to Ukrainian from Western part of Ukraine.

Good observation, you right..

[Cumansky]

Russians are whiter. Even if more Siberian shifted, and not all. Saw some so exotic Ukrainians that look like Turks and hard-core Balkanites. You won't find Russians like that.

Those Russians exist in some region as atypical, Russians have alot population

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Those Russians exist in some region as atypical, Russians have a lot population

people try to exoticise russians. most are very white, some on whitest people that exist.

[Cumansky]

people try to exoticise russians. most are very white, some on whitest people that exist.

Not the ones with Black Sea coastal ancestry, come from Ukraine after war now assimilated mixes pseudo Balkan

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Not the ones with Black Sea coastal ancestry, come from Ukraine after war now assimilated mixes pseudo Balkan

they are ukrainians

[Cumansky]

they are ukrainians

Now 1/2, or 1/4 they are assimilated

[Sarmatian]

they are ukrainians

No we are not. Hohols are totally different from us.

[Sarmatian]

Not the ones with Black Sea coastal ancestry, come from Ukraine after war now assimilated mixes pseudo Balkan

I'm from Kuban near Black sea and I'm whiter than 99.9% of Europeans.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

No we are not. Hohols are totally different from us.

mate we're speaking about that swarthy turk and greek looking pontids user Kozak likes to post. no way in hell those are russians. russians are lot whiter
that dude comes from black sea coast

[Cumansky]

I'm from Kuban near Black sea and I'm whiter than 99.9% of Europeans.

I said already they atypical, I got alot Soviet kits on GEDmatch

Some of them even get unexpected stuff 10-15% Moroccan, on PCA overlap with Moldovans, they Rusukrs

[Sarmatian]

mate we're speaking about that swarthy turk and greek looking pontids user Kozak likes to post. no way in hell those are russians. russians are lot whiter
that dude comes from black sea coast

Funny thing is most of swarthy looking people from Black sea coast are either local Circassians/Turkics or actual Pontic Greeks who fled Turkish rule in Pontos.

But what I'm saying is Cossack population of Kuban and Don have little to do with Ukrainians. It is true Kuban was settled by Cossacks from Malorossia but back then there was no such thing as Ukraine nor Ukrainians. More to that for all these centuries Cossacks specifically distinguished themselves from Hohols who call themselves Ukrainians today. Basically Hohols were Malorossian peasants while Cossacks were military caste. There sure was some degree of mixing going on but not much since culturally these two entities were very different.

[Not a Cop]

Funny thing is most of swarthy looking people from Black sea coast are either local Circassians/Turkics or actual Pontic Greeks who fled Turkish rule in Pontos.

But what I'm saying is Cossack population of Kuban and Don have little to do with Ukrainians. It is true Kuban was settled by Cossacks from Malorossia but back then there was no such thing as Ukraine nor Ukrainians. More to that for all these centuries Cossacks specifically distinguished themselves from Hohols who call themselves Ukrainians today. Basically Hohols were Malorossian peasants while Cossacks were military caste. There sure was some degree of mixing going on but not much since culturally these two entities were very different.

Well, unfortenautly Cossacks time is gone and like 90% of people who call themself cossaks now are disgacefull clowns.

[ixulescu]

Russians are whiter. Even if more Siberian shifted, and not all. Saw some so exotic Ukrainians that look like Turks and hard-core Balkanites. You won't find Russians like that.

Plenty of Russians look like that around Rostov or Volgograd.

[Peterski]

First of all, even Western Ukrainians are not the same as Eastern Ukrainians.

Check their similarity to Hallstatt Celts (West over 50 vs. East less than 45):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276875-Hallstatt-Celt-DA111-850-700-BC-with-more-SNPs-than-before

https://i.imgur.com/Q91iH0N.png

[Leto]

I can say nothing about genetics, but judging by appearance, if we exclude so called Southern Russians who are actually Russified Ukrainians then Russians and Ukrainians are very different in looks. At least I can see difference instantly. And for example the Russian person from Nizhny Novgorod looks much closer to Finno Ugric Mordvin or even Volga Tatar than to Ukrainian from say Kharkov let alone to Ukrainian from Western part of Ukraine.
What do you mean by Southern? Russians between Smolensk and Nizhny Novgorod look more or less the same (minus individual and tiny differences). Mixed looking people in larger numbers start to appear to the east of Ryazan and Penza, i.e. in the Volga-Ural region. Of course modern migrations are diluting these distinctions and in big cities they are almost insignificant but that's just globalization.

I'd also like to add that Belorussians look very much Russian too, I personally cannot see the difference between normal unmixed Russians (no extra Siberian or wog) and Belorussians.

[Leto]

First of all, even Western Ukrainians are not the same as Eastern Ukrainians.
Yes, people to the East of Kiev are more like Russians (non-Northern) than Galitsians.

[Dragoon]

Considering they are neighbours and the early Slavic tribes were in the area, its not surprising they are the same (rather very similar is more accurate).

As for looks sometimes you can distinguish them by facial structure (usually Slavs can distinguish Slavs, Germanics other Germanics, etc).

[Borealis]

Whatever the case, they seem to have taken over my gym. Meanwhile fatass Americans sit at home all day.

[Slavic Italian]

Davidski says they are all the same people. Yes. Today there is a lot of mixing but generally they are the same.

[Peterski]

Davidski says they are all the same people. Yes. Today there is a lot of mixing but generally they are the same.

Golden Horde European from Kazakhstan was a bit diffferent, he was like modern Balts, Lithuanians etc.:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277814-Who-was-quot-Golden-Horde-European-quot-DA29-from-Kazakhstan

[Leto]

Davidski says they are all the same people. Yes. Today there is a lot of mixing but generally they are the same.
Look, there are regional differences in much smaller nations. Of course Arkhangelsk would not be the same as Lviv. But Western, Southwestern and even Central Russians are much closer to Ukraine and Belarus.

[Ayetooey]

Actual slavic russians (not ones mixed with non slavic ethnic minority groups) seem all quite close to each other, impressive considering how large a landmass russia is; not fully sure how close they are to Ukranians but I can't imagine the distance being massive. Though I'm not fully clued up on either group.

[Austrvegr]

South russians and ukrainians can be same, but north russians are different thing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15974299

Many north russian is just slavized finno-ugrian.

What about West Ukranians from around the Carpathian Mountains?

[Leto]

I'm gonna post GM results of a SW Russian (from Kursk oblast).
Let's not be distracted too much by looks. My father is Belorussian (plus Bel-Polish and some Russian) and my mom is NE Russian from Kirov oblast and they don't look like a "mixed couple" or anything even close to that. Member Mingle saw a photo not long ago, he can confirm. I look quite neutral as well, pass from Tallinn all the way to Bratislava.

[Arsen_]

But what I'm saying is Cossack population of Kuban and Don have little to do with Ukrainians. It is true Kuban was settled by Cossacks from Malorossia but back then there was no such thing as Ukraine nor Ukrainians. More to that for all these centuries Cossacks specifically distinguished themselves from Hohols who call themselves Ukrainians today. Basically Hohols were Malorossian peasants while Cossacks were military caste. There sure was some degree of mixing going on but not much since culturally these two entities were very different.

I live most of my life in either Eastern Ukraine or Southern Russia, I have relatives from both side Russians (Cossacks) and Ukrainians, and I can assure you that Southern Russians and Eastern Ukrainians are same people 100% identical to each other (even accent of Russian language is the same!), and both are different from Russians who live say in Moscow or N.Novgorod etc. And by the way that contradistinction Cossack - Hohol is absolutely artificial and politically motivated. Because if Cossacks realized that they have nothing common with Muscovites it would not be good for Russia.

[Dragoon]

This page has several Russian regions for ydna (no regions for Ukraine though):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Europe

[Leto]

Can we please leave out politics here? I don't wanna discuss the subject (Russia vs. Ukraine), especially considering how controversial it is.

[Leto]

I live most of my life in either Eastern Ukraine or Southern Russia, I have relatives from both side Russians (Cossacks) and Ukrainians, and I can assure you that Southern Russians and Eastern Ukrainians are same people 100% identical to each other (even accent of Russian language is the same!), and both are different from Russians who live say in Moscow or N.Novgorod etc.
Moscow is super mixed, there's no distinct Moscow population, many even have non-Slavic or non-European admixture (Tatar, Jewish, Caucasian, etc.). It's a giant mess. I know 'cause I was born in Moscow oblast. Quite miscegenated, at least to my taste.

[Dragoon]

Look, there are regional differences in much smaller nations. Of course Arkhangelsk would not be the same as Lviv. But Western, Southwestern and even Central Russians are much closer to Ukraine and Belarus.

Apparently from one small sample: Arkhangelsk has the most I1 then N then R1a (this deviates a bit from the larger average North Russian samples)
Somewhat related note: watched a documentary on that place recently on some Polish channel.

[Leto]

Apparently from one small sample: Arkhangelsk has the most I1 then N then R1a (this deviates a bit from the larger average North Russian samples)
(watched a documentary on that place recently on some Polish channel).
Arkhangelsk Russians are basically what the Kargopol_Russian reference is like. It can also be used as a proxy for Vologda.

[silentkiller]

Russia is for Russians! Ukrainians look swarthier than Russians on the average. Northwestern Russians are Finns who speak Russian, in my humble opinion. Fuck politics! The race is what really matters.

Ukrainian girls are more opened for racial mixing. I saw a lot of Ukro-peruvian couples when I was living abroad. That's really nasty.

[michal3141]

They are definitely very similar. Basically Balto-Slavic.

[Peterski]

Well, Ukraine means Borderland - because it is Polish-Russian borderland and Ukrainians are descended from a mix of both groups.

In the 1200s the Golden Horde depopulated and devastated Ukraine (they burned Kiev to the ground) and it was re-populated later.

[Leto]

Well, Ukraine means Borderland - because it is Polish-Russian borderland and Ukrainians are descended from a mix of both groups.

In the 1200s the Golden Horde depopulated and devastated Ukraine (they burned Kiev to the ground) and it was re-populated later.
Um, only Eastern Ukraine (steppe) was part of the Wild Fields. Kiev was not. But yes, Western Ukraine is closer to Poland, Eastern to Russia. Also, Northern Ukraine must be pretty much like Southern Belarus.

[Peterski]

Um, only Eastern Ukraine (steppe) was part of the Wild Fields. Kiev was not.

But the Mongols destroyed Kiev and until the 1800s it had smaller population size than before the Mongol Invasion.

[Slavic Italian]

They are definitely very similar. Basically Balto-Slavic.

These guys are basing their opinions off of appearance and mixing. I look Italian but I am in fact more Prussian and Slavic.

[Leto]

These guys are basing their opinions off of appearance and mixing.
I am not. A couple of users brought up the subject of looks but not me. There's a lot of light Ukrainians and South Russians and there are also darker Northern Russians, that doesn't always correlate with genetics. In fact, many Volga Tatars look white (not just Russian).

[Arsen_]

What do you mean by Southern? Russians between Smolensk and Nizhny Novgorod look more or less the same (minus individual and tiny differences). Mixed looking people in larger numbers start to appear to the east of Ryazan and Penza, i.e. in the Volga-Ural region. Of course modern migrations are diluting these distinctions and in big cities they are almost insignificant but that's just globalization.

I'd also like to add that Belorussians look very much Russian too, I personally cannot see the difference between normal unmixed Russians (no extra Siberian or wog) and Belorussians.

Not sure about Smolensk cos never been to there but true, in Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod Russians look the same. At the same time from what I've seen Russians in Krasnodar and Rostov and Ukrainians in Kharkov look the same as well and they look different from Russians of Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod.

As for Belorussians and Russians, in most cases I can distinguish them. To me Belorussians and Russians have kind of different vibe. Belorussians have more sharply defined and less open features than Russians. Also Belorussians have kind of sad and depressive look compared to Russians.

[Slavic Italian]

I am not. A couple of users brought up the subject of looks but not me. There's a lot of light Ukrainians and South Russians and there are also darker Northern Russians, that doesn't always correlate with genetics. In fact, many Volga Tatars look white (not just Russian).

You certainly were part of the discussion. Do not act like you were not.

[Cumansky]

You certainly were part of the discussion. Do not act like you were not.

I don't understand what you try say here that Ukrainian and Russian is one ethnic group? There is major regional differences..Russia and Ukraine is 2 biggest countries. Western Europeans you are heavily watered down version of Tartarians, Russia has 150-200 ethnics

How many race in Italy? 2? RomefatpastaJew and SicilyfatpastaJew?

[Slavic Italian]

I don't understand what you try say here that Ukrainian and Russian is one ethnic group? There is major regional differences..Russia and Ukraine is 2 biggest countries. Western Europeans you are heavily watered down version of Tartarians, Russia has 150-200 ethnics

How many race in Italy? 2? RomefatpastaJew and SicilyfatpastaJew?

This is by far the stupidest post in the thread. Go drink some Vodka Ivan.

[Cumansky]

This is by far the stupidest post in the thread. Go drink some Vodka Ivan.

Why you worry about Slavs, as western spy? Your ancestor obviously got kicked from my land..

[Slavic Italian]

Why you worry about Slavs, as western spy? Your ancestor obviously got kicked from my land..

I still have people in your lands.

[Cumansky]

I still have people in your lands.

Then ask them, what kind of Jew you are..

[Floralys]

South russians and even central russians yes.

But northern Russians are closer to Latvians or Lithuanians

The Russians have blonder hair and lighter eyes.

Belarusians are also blonder than Ukrainians

[Rumata]

Yes the older Slavic population of Krasnodar and Kuban region is more like the population of Eastern Ukraine than like the population of Moscow region. But since Krasnodar region has become the centre of migration the population here becomes more and more like Russians from Siberia and Ural and like Armenians from Armenia and Azerbajan (me being a local wog/mongol mutt).

[Ülev]

Україна це Европа :rolleyes:

[Slavic Italian]

Then ask them, what kind of Jew you are..

What is it with you and this Jew stuff? The only time in recent history your land was worth a damn is when they ruled it.

[Cumansky]

Do pieca

[Sarmatian]

I live most of my life in either Eastern Ukraine or Southern Russia, I have relatives from both side Russians (Cossacks) and Ukrainians, and I can assure you that Southern Russians and Eastern Ukrainians are same people 100% identical to each other (even accent of Russian language is the same!), and both are different from Russians who live say in Moscow or N.Novgorod etc. And by the way that contradistinction Cossack - Hohol is absolutely artificial and politically motivated. Because if Cossacks realized that they have nothing common with Muscovites it would not be good for Russia.

Are you trying to give me a lecture on Cossack-Hohol relationships? I grew up in stanitsa near Krasnodar so I can assure you we have never considered Hohols to be same as us. If anything both Hohols and Katsaps were equally culturally distant from Cossacks. Language and appearance means little in this phenomena, highly militarized culture of Cossacks was making all the difference. Main bonding factor was Orthodox faith. But culturally Cossacks were intermediate between sedentary Hohols and Katsaps on one side and nomadic Horde/Khanate on the other.

Only recent modernization and abolition of social estates had leveled these differences and made linguistic factor more prominent. Still even today Hohols are considered as different society by many.


Because if Cossacks realized that they have nothing common with Muscovites it would not be good for Russia.

You have no idea about our historical relationship with Moscow. Just stop this nonsense.

[bimf]

Apparently from one small sample: Arkhangelsk has the most I1 then N then R1a (this deviates a bit from the larger average North Russian samples)
Somewhat related note: watched a documentary on that place recently on some Polish channel.
A russian cities with most I1? Could you offer your source I'm just curious

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

A russian cities with most I1? Could you offer your source I'm just curious

Vologda region (17%) and Archangelsk (14%) have highest frequency of I1 in Russia.

http://www.academia.edu/1978378/The_origin_of_haplogroup_I1-M253_in_Eastern_Europe

[bimf]

Volgoda region (17%) and Archangelsk (14%) have highest frequency of I1 in Russia.

http://www.academia.edu/1978378/The_origin_of_haplogroup_I1-M253_in_Eastern_Europe

great source, thx for sharing. Do you have more sources/statistics about overall Y-DNA haplogroups in different regions of russia?

[Arhat]

South Russians and Central West Russians especially the ones with recent Ukrainian ancestry. Other Russians differ from Ukrainians because of a finno-ugrian genetic substrate. Finno-Ugrians played a very important role in the Russian ethnic ethnogensis. And north of Moscow there is almost as much as Finno-Ugrian ancestry as Slavic. In the most northern areas or around the Ural most ancestry is pre-slavic

[Arhat]

South russians and even central russians yes.

But northern Russians are closer to Latvians or Lithuanians

The Russians have blonder hair and lighter eyes.

Belarusians are also blonder than Ukrainians
Indigenous Northern Russians are similar to Karelians, Vepsians or othet northern Finno-Ugrians. Only northwestern Russians around Pskov and Novgorod are similar to Balts. The most northern Russian regions were just recently Slavicized. Northern Russia became later Slavic than Serbia or Macedonia. in the last 150 years so many Ukrainians and Russians from the South settled in North Russia that the genetic profile of North Russia changed radically.

[Leto]

Indigenous Northern Russians are similar to Karelians, Vepsians or othet northern Finno-Ugrians
Only northwestern Russians around Pskov and Novgorod are similar to Balts. The most northern Russian regions were only recently Slavicized. Northern Russia became later Slavic than Serbia or Macedonia.
Vologda and Vyatka were founded before the Mongol invasion. And by the way, Russians in the Middle Volga region appeared only after the fall of Kazan (second half of the 16th century) and mass settlement took place even later - in the 17-18th cent.

[Arhat]

Vologda and Vyatka were founded before the Mongol invasion. And by the way, Russians in the Middle Volga region appeared only after the fall of Kazan (second half of the 16th century) and mass settlement took place even later - in the 17-18th cent.

Most Volga Finns were actually quite highly developed and sophisticated. They were not much lesser developed than Early Slavs. Slavs were just better politically organised after they got a Varangian elite and came with many migrants from the south west.

[Leto]

Most Volga Finns were actually quite highly developed and sophisticated. They were not much lesser developed than Early Slavs. Slavs were just better politically organised after they got a Varangian elite and came with many migrants from the south west.
Um, as far as I know, farming was much less developed among Udmurts for example. Russians brought more advanced techniques to those places. I'm not talking about the Middle Ages but the period after Ivan IV. Or maybe the Udmurts are just not Volga Finns? :icon_ask:

[Arhat]

Um, as far as I know, farming was much less developed among Udmurts for example. Russians brought more advanced techniques to those places. I'm not talking about the Middle Ages but the period after Ivan IV. Or maybe the Udmurts are just not Volga Finns? :icon_ask:

I was mostly talking about Merya, who built their own cities (Sarskoye), had fine weapons and practised slash-and-burn farming. They also were used as mercenaries by many East Slavic rulers and Varangians conquered with the help of them Kiev in the 10th century. Actually it seems that Rostov was in the beginning mainly a city of Merya. They played a very important in the creation of Vladimir-Suzdalian Rus, which was central for the development of russian identity, language and statehood.

[Leto]

I was mostly talking about Merya, who built their own cities (Sarskoye), had fine weapons and practised slash-and-burn farming. They also were used as mercenaries by many East Slavic rulers and Varangians conquered with the help of them Kiev in the 10th century. Actually it seems that Rostov was in the beginning mainly a city of Merya. They played a very important in the creation of Vladimir-Suzdalian Rus, which was central for the development of russian identity, language and statehood.
Well, I guess they had massive IE substratum. Fatyanovo and things like that.

[Leto]

Actually we have some medieval dna from Central Russia (Sunghir near Suzdal). And this guy was clustering with Poles and not with modern day Central Russians from Vladimir, who derived around 30-50% of their ancestry from Merya.


http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=29377
I wouldn't make any conclusions based on only one sample. He might as well have been contaminated in some way. And as I told you, don't feed the troll. :)

[Arhat]

Well, I guess they had massive IE substratum. Fatyanovo and things like that.

Yeah even the ethnonym Merya is from Indo-Iranian "Marya" (man). Also Volga Finns and most Finno-Ugrians in Russia derive most of their ancestry from Corded Ware anyways. They are more CWC-like than most other Northern Europeans. So by mixing with Volga Finns, Slavs in Russia became genetically closer to their Corded Ware ancestors.

[Leto]

Yeah even the ethnonym Merya is from Indo-Iranian "Marya" (man). Also Volga Finns and most Finno-Ugrians in Russia derive most of their ancestry from Corded Ware anyways. They are more CWC-like than most other Northern Europeans. So by mixing with Volga Finns Slavs in Russia became genetically closer to their Corded Ware ancestors.
That's interesting. I always say Finno-Ugric is simply a linguistic term, it's not a genetic group by any means. In fact, none of the languages is mutually intelligible. Just look at the Swadesh list for FU languages.

[Arhat]

That's interesting. I always say Finno-Ugric is simply a linguistic term, it's not a genetic group by any means. In fact, none of the languages is mutually intelligible. Just look at the Swadesh list for FU languages.

Actually I find their history quite fascinating and hope their languages and traditions get preserved in Russia. Unfortunately Merya died out but modern Central Russians (like my wife) seem to have a lot of ancestry from them.

[Leto]

Actually I find their history quite fascinating and hope their languages and traditions get preserved in Russia. Unfortunately Merya died out but modern Central Russians (like my wife) seem to have a lot of ancestry from them.
Well, nowadays even the future of large European nations is uncertain to put it mildly, let alone small ethnicities without statehood.

[Ülev]

:popcorn:

[Mingle]

Isn't the grouping "Volga Finn" outdated now? Aren't the Maris, Erzyas, etc. now generally considered their own distinct Uralic branch?

[Arhat]

Well, nowadays even the future of large European nations is uncertain to put it mildly, let alone small ethnicities without statehood.

I guess Komi and Mordvins will still much longer survive than German or French people...

[Mingle]

Yeah even the ethnonym Merya is from Indo-Iranian "Marya" (man). Also Volga Finns and most Finno-Ugrians in Russia derive most of their ancestry from Corded Ware anyways. They are more CWC-like than most other Northern Europeans. So by mixing with Volga Finns, Slavs in Russia became genetically closer to their Corded Ware ancestors.

Wasn't the term 'Merya' an exonym for generic "Volga Finns"? If so, the same word/people still survive today in the form of 'Mordvins'. The term Mordvin has the same etymology as Merya and is an exonym. Although they're obviously not identical to the extinct subgroup of Central Russia.

[Leto]

I guess Komi and Mordvins will still much longer survive than German or French people...
Most of them barely speak their languages. After 1917 and especially 1991 even a lot of Tatars (a much larger and distinct group) don't speak their ethnic language. Globally people tend to shift to bigger languages, be it Russian, English, Spanish, French or Mandarin. There is very little information in small languages and most people use what's more practical and useful for life and work.

[Arhat]

Isn't the grouping "Volga Finn" outdated now? Aren't the Maris, Erzyas, etc. now generally considered their own distinct Uralic branch?

It is rather an areal classification than a genetic one. Mari and Merya are by some seen closer to Balto-Finns

[Leto]

Isn't the grouping "Volga Finn" outdated now? Aren't the Maris, Erzyas, etc. now generally considered their own distinct Uralic branch?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/UralicTree.svg/1024px-UralicTree.svg.png

[Arhat]

Wasn't the term 'Merya' an exonym for generic "Volga Finns"? If so, the same word/people still survive today in the form of 'Mordvins'. The term Mordvin has the same etymology as Merya and is an exonym. Although they're obviously not identical to the extinct subgroup of Central Russia.

I am not sure about historical Merya but modern day Mari use Mari as ethnonym but were historically by outsiders also called Cheremis. Mari and Merya seem to be the same etymological root. Actually some think that Mari are just eastern Merya, which somehow preserved their language. Maybe Merya is just the slavic pronunciation of Mari but i am not sure about that.

[Slavic Italian]

South Russians and Central West Russians especially the ones with recent Ukrainian ancestry. Other Russians differ from Ukrainians because of a finno-ugrian genetic substrate. Finno-Ugrians played a very important role in the Russian ethnic ethnogensis. And north of Moscow there is almost as much as Finno-Ugrian ancestry as Slavic. In the most northern areas or around the Ural most ancestry is pre-slavic

These are my top
IBD results under Davidski. My top modern matches. They support what you are saying.

Finnish 6.9837311
Saami 6.8176184
Russian_Central 6.3129655
Cossack_Kuban 6.3128055
Karelian 5.547862
Irish 5.422011
Ukrainian_East 5.1333935
Ukrainian_North 5.0581372

[Not a Cop]

I am not sure about historical Merya but modern day Mari use Mari as ethnonym but were historically by outsiders also called Cheremis. Mari and Merya seem to be the same etymological root. Actually some think that Mari are just eastern Merya, which somehow preserved their language. Maybe Merya is just the slavic pronunciation of Mari but i am not sure about that.

Well Maria and Modvinic peoples are pretty different genetically as of now.

[Mingle]

I am not sure about historical Merya but modern day Mari use Mari as ethnonym but were historically by outsiders also called Cheremis. Mari and Merya seem to be the same etymological root. Actually some think that Mari are just eastern Merya, which somehow preserved their language. Maybe Merya is just the slavic pronunciation of Mari but i am not sure about that.

My guess is that the Mari were the first Uralics of that region that the Russians encountered and then they falsely applied the name Mari to other Uralic peoples.

Or its possible that the original "Mari/Merya" were from modern Central Russia (i.e. Merya) and the Russians then applied their name to all Uralics. The Mari could have originally called themselves something else but then adopted the name "Mari" losing their original ethnonym similar to how the Khakass and Volga Bulgars stopped calling themselves their original name and self-identify as only "Tatar".

I agree Merya and Mordva are different pronunciations of the same word.

Also, I think the original name of the Proto-Erzya-Moksha people was "Erzya" and then the Moksha split off from them in the late Iron Age somehow.

Do you know the etymology of "Cheremis" by the way?

And why is a Uralic people (Merya, Mordva, Mari, etc) using an IE-origin word as an endonym?

[Mingle]

Well Maria and Modvinic peoples are pretty different genetically as of now.Aren't they part of a smooth genetic continuum along with the Chuvash, Tatars, and Bashkirs?

[Not a Cop]

Aren't they part of a smooth genetic continuum along with the Chuvash, Tatars, and Bashkirs?

Not really, while Mari are within the Volga-Ural cluster, Mordvins are within Balto-Slavic one, they have significant differences in East-Eurasian admixture.

This map is not perfect, but tells the difference, it's actually pretty interesting, how sharp the border between them is.
http://oi67.tinypic.com/2469qht.jpg

[Arhat]

Not really, while Mari are within the Volga-Ural cluster, Mordvins are within Balto-Slavic one, they have significant differences in East-Eurasian admixture.

This map is not perfect, but tells the difference, it's actually pretty interesting, how sharp the border between them is.
http://oi67.tinypic.com/2469qht.jpg

If Merya were genetically like this Mari than Finno-Ugrian ancestry in Central Russia would decrease by half and more. But Mordovians seem to be mixed with Balts-Slavs and Mari are maybe mixed with Tatars or Chuvash. Or what is your opinion about this? I don't know but i would guess that Merya/Finno-Ugrians in Central Russia were more similar to Vepsians but more East-Eurasian shifted and that the Finno-Ugrian substrate there was mainly Vepsian/Chud-like. But i still get the best fits for Central Russians by using Mordovians+Vepsians but that could be because Mordovians became themselves very similar to Central Russians by mixing with Balto-Slavs.


nmonte with Mari:

Model Sample Details Fit Map Avar Hungary Szolad Baltic IA Levanluhta IA Mari
1 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Levanluhta_IA +Mari Russian_Kostroma:Average 1.4236 Open Map 59.17 15 19.17 6.67
2 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Levanluhta_IA +Mari Russian_Tver:Average 1.947 Open Map 67.5 20 10.83 1.67

nmonte with Mordovian:

Model Sample Details Fit Map Avar Hungary Szolad Baltic IA Levanluhta IA Mordovian
1 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Levanluhta_IA +Mordovian Russian_Kostroma:Average 0.9567 Open Map 13.33 6.67 3.33 76.67
2 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Levanluhta_IA +Mordovian Russian_Tver:Average 0.9689 Open Map 35.83 12.5 0 51.67


monte with Vepsian+Sarmatian_Urals
Model Sample Details Fit Map Avar Hungary Szolad Baltic IA Sarmatian Urals Vepsian
1 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Sarmatian_Urals +Vepsian Russian_Kostroma:Average 1.1551 Open Map 20.83 4.17 7.5 67.5
2 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Sarmatian_Urals +Vepsian Russian_Tver:Average 1.4757 Open Map 50 15.83 5.83 28.33

nmonte with modern Slavic reference groups + Vepsian/Mari(fit is better):

Model Sample Details Fit Map Belarusian Mari Ukrainian Vepsian
1 Belarusian +Mari +Ukrainian +Vepsian Russian_Kostroma:Average 0.7758 Open Map 14.17 6.67 34.17 45
2 Belarusian +Mari +Ukrainian +Vepsian Russian_Tver:Average 0.7855 Open Map 50.83 2.5 29.17 17.5

nmonte with modern Slavic reference groups + Mordovian/Vepsian(fit is best):
Model Sample Details Fit Map Belarusian Mordovian Ukrainian Vepsian
1 Belarusian +Mordovian +Ukrainian +Vepsian Russian_Kostroma:Average 0.7401 Open Map 7.5 50.83 10.83 30.83
2 Belarusian +Mordovian +Ukrainian +Vepsian Russian_Tver:Average 0.5676 Open Map 45 30.83 15.83 8.33

[Mingle]

Mordovians seem to be mixed with Balts-Slavs but Mari are maybe mixed with Tatars or Chuvash. I don't know but i would guess that Merya were more similar to Vepsians but more East-Eurasian shifted and that the Finno-Ugrian substrate there was mainly Vepsian/Chud-like

The Chuvash are basically just Maris with maybe minor Turkic. The Chuvash are called Suasenmaari by Mari people which literally translates to "Chuvashified Mari". The Tatars used to identify as Bulgars and called their land Bulgarlak until they adopted the Muslim and subsequent Tatar ethnic identities. Interesting that the Tatars are of Bulgar lineage but don't speak the Bulgar language yet the Chuvash are considered to be Maris yet they speak the Bulgar language (instead of the Mari language). The Volga region is a mess.

Also, how would one explain the massive genetic difference between the Mordvin and Mari/Chuvash? Did the Mordvins massively mix with Russians within the past 500 years? If so, then why did they mix with Russians so much and why didn't the Mari/Chuvash? It's crazy for two neighboring regions to have such a gargantuan genetic gap. Only the high caste-low caste divide among neighboring populations in northern South Asia compares.

[Chelubey]

And why is a Uralic people (Merya, Mordva, Mari, etc) using an IE-origin word as an endonym?

As i know, Marya is also pra-Finno-Ugric word.
Around 50 % of Sibirian people's ethnonyms translated as "Human,man". It's regional tradition.
Perhaps word "Merja" got into Finno-Ugric languages before becoming an ethnonym. And after it became an ethnonym.

[Chelubey]

The Chuvash are basically just Maris with maybe minor Turkic. The Chuvash are called Suasenmaari by Mari people which literally translates to "Chuvashified Mari"..
Mari = human from Mari language,as i know.

[Arhat]

That is what i get for Ukrainians. They are also mostly Avar Slavic-like+Baltic-like but they have some balkan shift (Scythian Moldava was similar to Pre-Slavic Balkan people). But even Ukrainians especially Cossacks have some eastern ancestry (Sarmatian_Urals, Chuvash-like). It is probably from Scythians or Tatars but maybe some of it is from Finno-Ugrians (Magyars?) too.


Model Sample Details Fit Map Avar Hungary Szolad Baltic IA Sarmatian Urals Scythian Moldova
1 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Sarmatian_Urals +Scythian_Moldova Cossack_Ukrainian:Average 1.5587 Open Map 60.83 23.33 5 10.83
2 Avar_Hungary_Szolad +Baltic_IA +Sarmatian_Urals +Scythian_Moldova Ukrainian:Average 1.356 Open Map 56.67 25 3.33 15

Model Sample Details Fit Map Belarusian Chuvash Polish Scythian Moldova
1 Belarusian +Chuvash +Polish +Scythian_Moldova Cossack_Ukrainian:Average 0.9013 Open Map 40 10 46.67 3.33
2 Belarusian +Chuvash +Polish +Scythian_Moldova Ukrainian:Average 0.3346 Open Map 30.83 1.67 65 2.5

[Not a Cop]

If Merya were genetically like this Mari than Finno-Ugrian ancestry in Central Russia would decrease by half and more. But Mordovians seem to be mixed with Balts-Slavs and Mari are maybe mixed with Tatars or Chuvash. Or what is your opinion about this? I don't know but i would guess that Merya/Finno-Ugrians in Central Russia were more similar to Vepsians but more East-Eurasian shifted and that the Finno-Ugrian substrate there was mainly Vepsian/Chud-like. But i still get the best fits for Central Russians by using Mordovians+Vepsians but that could be because Mordovians became themselves very similar to Central Russians by mixing with Balto-Slavs.


Well i guess that Central Russian F-U were not similar to Baltic Finns, this way they would get a lot of Finnish in dna test.

As for Mordvins i don't believe that they became so similar with Balto-Slavs via mixing in recent times, but rather from an early age.

As for question of Russian ethnogenesis i would say that the main problem is that unlike in Balkans or even in Polish or Czech cases we see mixing with very similar populations mostly of Balto-Slavic genetical heritage, thus making it very hard to separate them. I guess untill we will have a lot of paleo DNA we wouldn't be able to tell for shure. Thankfully were are only one step away from it as in storages of our historical and anthropological universities we have literraly thousands of them from all posible tribes and cultures.

[Arhat]

Well i guess that Central Russian F-U were not similar to Baltic Finns, this way they would get a lot of Finnish in dna test.

As for Mordvins i don't believe that they became so similar with Balto-Slavs via mixing in recent times, but rather from an early age.

As for question of Russian ethnogenesis i would say that the main problem is that unlike in Balkans or even in Polish or Czech cases we see mixing with very similar populations mostly of Balto-Slavic genetical heritage, thus making it very hard to separate them. I guess untill we will have a lot of paleo DNA we wouldn't be able to tell for shure. Thankfully were are only one step away from it as in storages of our historical and anthropological universities we have literraly thousands of them from all posible tribes and cultures.
Some Finnish linguists argued that Merya were linguistically closer to Baltic Finns based on hydronyms in Central Russia but yeah they probably did not shared recent drift with them and are not very directly related. I rather meant that they had a similar proportion of EHG/WHG, CHG, EEF and Siberian ancestry. Baltic Finns, Mordovians and probably Merya have a lot of Baltic_IA-like ancestry.

Russian archaeologists and geneticians are collecting ancient dna from Fatyanovo which could represent the IE-substratum among Finns-Ugrians in Central Russia.(https://ria.ru/20190116/1549430336.html). But it is also possible that most of the Baltic_IA-like ancestry arrived later either with some Balts (Galindians,..) or with poor documented Iron Age migrations from the (south)west.

[Chocolate_Hound]

Russians are whiter. Even if more Siberian shifted, and not all. Saw some so exotic Ukrainians that look like Turks and hard-core Balkanites. You won't find Russians like that.


Nothing matches the exotic Russians you find east of the Urals.

[Chocolate_Hound]

Could make a slight argument for western Ukraine, but eastern Ukraine + Belarus are basically confused Russians.

[Nurzat]

Could make a slight argument for western Ukraine, but eastern Ukraine + Belarus are basically confused Russians.

nope, I think one should accept the gradient in genetics and language across Russians, and I include Ukrainians and Belarussians to Russians. there is a continuum from northern Romania, eastern Slovakia and eastern Poland to Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, and these peoples and places belong together, they're all Russkies.

southernmost Russians are indeed "Ukrainian" in origin, as Ukrainian is the older speech and the countryside dialect in southern Russia has Ukrainian affinity, and don't forget that until recently Ukrainians called themselves Russian, actually to this day people in my Ukrainian-speaking region in northern Romania call themselves rusnaky and their language ruskij jazyk (not rus'ka mova).

I don't think local blends should be destroyed just to unify it all to he centre, I think all Russians can live together and tolerate each other. and local specific needs to be allowed to thrive everywhere

[Slavic Italian]

nope, I think one should accept the gradient in genetics and language across Russians, and I include Ukrainians and Belarussians to Russians. there is a continuum from northern Romania, eastern Slovakia and eastern Poland to Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, and these peoples and places belong together, they're all Russkies.

southernmost Russians are indeed "Ukrainian" in origin, as Ukrainian is the older speech and the countryside dialect in southern Russia has Ukrainian affinity, and don't forget that until recently Ukrainians called themselves Russian, actually to this day people in my Ukrainian-speaking region in northern Romania call themselves rusnaky and their language ruskij jazyk (not rus'ka mova).

I don't think local blends should be destroyed just to unify it all to he centre, I think all Russians can live together and tolerate each other. and local specific needs to be allowed to thrive everywhere

My Big Y 700 DNA results support everything you say.

[smd555]

Del

[smd555]

Northeastern Ukrainians differ from most Russian populations, with the possible exception of Smolensk and regions with a strong Ukrainian admixture (Belgorod, Krasnodar).

[Chocolate_Hound]

Russians are whiter. Even if more Siberian shifted, and not all. Saw some so exotic Ukrainians that look like Turks and hard-core Balkanites. You won't find Russians like that.

Ukraine is pretty far removed from the Balkans, I don't think those kinds of phenotypes exist that far east. They can be a bit swarthier than Russians but they look far closer to them than any to Balkan Slavs in my experience. The Balkans ends past Romania/Moldova, which is where East Slavs begin. Ukraine is an ex-Soviet state for Christ's sake.

[Borealis]

Ukraine is pretty far removed from the Balkans, I don't think those kinds of phenotypes exist that far east. They can be a bit swarthier than Russians but they look far closer to them than any to Balkan Slavs in my experience. The Balkans ends past Romania/Moldova, which is where East Slavs begin. Ukraine is an ex-Soviet state for Christ's sake.

Check out the singer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jjCvYdaqsU

[Russki]

And for example the Russian person from Nizhny Novgorod looks much closer to Finno Ugric Mordvin

Erzya maybe, Moksha definitely not.

Erzya were found to be more blonde than Belarus.


or even Volga Tatar

Only individuals due to internal migration.

[Humanophage]

Here is a nice graph from molgen (https://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=7120.780) summarising the East-West and South-North dimensions for different populations in Russia, including multiple Russians:
https://i.imgur.com/CTlfkZI.jpg

It bears mentioning that northeast Russians aren't very numerous. It may look to someone unfamiliar with the context like those are all big subgroups of Russians, but in fact it's more of a special much smaller group like Sardinians. It refers to people in small distant towns like Vologda and Kargopol in lands with few settlements. Here is the concentration of cities in pre-Mongol Russia:
https://i.imgur.com/nNsbpp7.png

Note also that it does not refer to people in lands around Moscow or even to the East of Moscow like Murom or Ryazan, but only begins around Yaroslavl and then quite slowly.

At the same time, non-northeast Russians are pretty diverse too, ranging from almost Lithuanian-like in Pskov to more southern than non-West Ukrainians in Tambov. There was also quite a lot of migration, especially away from areas proximate to the Great Steppe and thus endangered.

[Russki]

Here is a nice graph from molgen (https://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=7120.780) summarising the East-West and South-North dimensions for different populations in Russia, including multiple Russians:

It bears mentioning that northeast Russians aren't very numerous. It may look to someone unfamiliar with the context like those are all big subgroups of Russians, but in fact it's more of a special much smaller group like Sardinians. It refers to people in small distant towns like Vologda and Kargopol in lands with few settlements. Here is the concentration of cities in pre-Mongol Russia:
https://i.imgur.com/nNsbpp7.png

Note also that it does not refer to people in lands around Moscow or even to the East of Moscow like Murom or Ryazan, but only begins around Yaroslavl and then quite slowly.

At the same time, non-northeast Russians are pretty diverse too, ranging from almost Lithuanian-like in Pskov to more southern than non-West Ukrainians in Tambov. There was also quite a lot of migration, especially away from areas proximate to the Great Steppe and thus endangered.

I don't buy your graph because it shows Estonians more Southern than Latvians.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SU_xP1DlJgI/W_5xwKsE2iI/AAAAAAAAHV4/C-f36cURkDIkutMJFSsR_1Tq4Ds4_mGugCLcBGAs/s1600/G25_North_Euro_LDA.png

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/08/global25-workshop-3-genes-vs-geography.html

[Humanophage]

I don't buy your graph because it shows Estonians more Southern than Latvians.


https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/08/global25-workshop-3-genes-vs-geography.html
I'm not the author of the graph.

My guess is that Estonians are slightly to the south because of higher Mediterranean admixtures, which on that Polako graph are not interpreted as southern. E.g., on that graph, the French are to the north of Poles and East Germans, whilst Belgians are to the north of Germans and Estonians, and Ukrainians are to the north of Lithuanians. To be frank, it's an insubstantial difference on the first graph.