Are European Jews just converted Romans?

[Haider]

So now that we know Imperial Romans plotted with modern South Italians and by default modern European Jews, I think it's safe to assume the obvious: Euro Jews are converted Romans. The difference in haplogroup distribution could easily be explained due to all the bottlenecks Jews undergone. Imo this makes much more sense than coming up with several theories that European Jews are a mixture of this and that, that coincidentally enough made them plot with ancient Rome.

[Dna8]

I wouldn't say so, mate.

[Haider]

I wouldn't say so, mate.

The facts are:

1. Modern Jews plot with ancient Romans
2. Ancient Jews migrated from Rome to other parts of Europe after the fall of Rome

Why come up with mind-blowing theories that modern Jews are 30% this, 20% that, 40% x, 10% y, when the obvious makes perfect sense?

[Smeagol]

Maybe not entirely but the Roman DNA results make it likely that European Jews are more Roman than we thought.

[Dna8]

Would you say more Romans became Christians or Jews?

[Dna8]

Would you say more Romans became Christians or Jews?

Sorry, I'll rephrase: How would you compare Romans' adoption of Judaism with Romans' adoption of Christianity?

[Smeagol]

Sorry, I'll rephrase: How would you compare Romans' adoption of Judaism with Romans' adoption of Christianity?

I don't see how this is relevant to his question. Everyone knows the Romans mass converted to Christianity, but in the centuries prior to that Judaism was a proselytizing religion and around 10% of the Empire was Jewish at it's height.

[Dna8]

I don't see how this is relevant to his question. Everyone knows the Romans mass converted to Christianity, but in the centuries prior to that Judaism was a proselytizing religion and around 10% of the Empire was Jewish at it's height.

It's nothing sinister.. I'm just after insight into his mode of thinking..

[Smeagol]

It's nothing sinister.. I'm just after insight into his mode of thinking..

Wasn't saying it was, just trying to see what your point was.

[Dna8]

Wasn't saying it was, just trying to see what your point was.

pure curiosity about his thinking process

[Bellbeaking]

well they have that minor semetic paternal component, but yest they are mostly italian

[Longbowman]

YDNA, atDNA and IBD sharing suggests they're not, but that they do have a very large amount of Italian DNA.

Plotting is very simplistic. My girlfriend is half-Euro half-Chinese. She plots with the Hazara. She is not Hazara.

[celticdragongod]

The facts are:

1. Modern Jews plot with ancient Romans
2. Ancient Jews migrated from Rome to other parts of Europe after the fall of Rome

Why come up with mind-blowing theories that modern Jews are 30% this, 20% that, 40% x, 10% y, when the obvious makes perfect sense?

Obvious to you maybe. Why would the Romans convert to Judaism? I think a more obvious answer is that the Romans were of partial Middle Eastern ancestry.

[celticdragongod]

YDNA, atDNA and IBD sharing suggests they're not, but that they do have a very large amount of Italian DNA.

I believe most of that Italian DNA is of female origin i.e. Jewish males marrying Italian females.

[celticdragongod]

I don't see how this is relevant to his question. Everyone knows the Romans mass converted to Christianity, but in the centuries prior to that Judaism was a proselytizing religion and around 10% of the Empire was Jewish at it's height.

How do you know that at one point 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish?

[Borealis]

No wonder they still looks so ethnic. If they mixed with northern rather than Southern Europeans then they’d look different.

[celticdragongod]

So now that we know Imperial Romans plotted with modern South Italians and by default modern European Jews, I think it's safe to assume the obvious: Euro Jews are converted Romans. The difference in haplogroup distribution could easily be explained due to all the bottlenecks Jews undergone. Imo this makes much more sense than coming up with several theories that European Jews are a mixture of this and that, that coincidentally enough made them plot with ancient Rome.

I think if there was a mass conversion of Romans to Judaism then Latin would have replaced Hebrew as the religion's official language just as Latin became the official language of Roman Catholicism.

[ModernMaskil]

No. Literally all evidence points to this and other mass conversion theories about Ashkenazi Jews not being true.

[ModernMaskil]

To be clear there was plenty of conversion and Euro Jews do have a large Italian component (as Sephardic Jews do) however this is not the primary origin of the group.

[Jacques de Imbelloni]

They have at least some judean/west asian paternal lines.

[Mingle]

Tried running both South Italians and Ashkenazi Jews on nMonte. The South Italians are a proxy for Romans. The South Italian gets 94% South Italian. Don't know why it doesn't get 100% but 94% is close enough. The Jew gets a decent chunk of Samaritan as well as some German. They seem to have little to no North Italian, unlike the popularly believed narrative that they're half-North Italian (and half-Levantine).

https://i.imgur.com/9gDcSuc.png

But anyways, they're not converted Romans, just superficially very similar on an autosomal level (though they do have a lot of Roman/Italian blood).

[Longbowman]

Tried running both South Italians and Ashkenazi Jews on nMonte. The South Italians are a proxy for Romans. The South Italian gets 94% South Italian. Don't know why it doesn't get 100% but 94% is close enough. The Jew gets a decent chunk of Samaritan as well as some German. They seem to have little to no North Italian, unlike the popularly believed narrative that they're half-North Italian (and half-Levantine).

https://i.imgur.com/9gDcSuc.png

But anyways, they're not converted Romans, just superficially very similar on an autosomal level (though they do have a lot of Roman/Italian blood).

Doesn't reflect ibd sharing though.

[Smeagol]

How do you know that at one point 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish?


Judaism reached the peak of its expansion in the years prior to the 66 CE revolt. Salo Baron, in his monumental A Social and Religious History of the Jews, points out that the Jews - comprising as many as 10 percent of the Western Roman empire and 20 percent of the Eastern Roman empire
https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/how-disaster-made-conversion-harder-1.16797

[Smeagol]

They seem to have little to no North Italian, unlike the popularly believed narrative that they're half-North Italian (and half-Levantine)

That's because North Italians during the Roman Empire were probably more similar to modern South Italians. I think Jews are closer to 70% European ancestry rather than 50% but it's mostly South Italian-like.

[Borealis]

That's because North Italians during the Roman Empire were probably more similar to modern South Italians. I think Jews are closer to 70% European ancestry rather than 50% but it's mostly South Italian-like.

goths?

[Smeagol]

goths?

Among others.

[Peterski]

Doesn't reflect ibd sharing though.

Yeah he didn't choose the right populations for that model.

Long ago on Anthrogenica Agamemnon posted some models:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11124-A-new-paper-on-Ashkenazi-Jews&p=253600&viewfull=1#post253600

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?214281-How-Polish-are-Ashkenazi-Jews

Also some Greek admixture is possible for Ashkenazi Jews.


Tried running both South Italians and Ashkenazi Jews on nMonte. The South Italians are a proxy for Romans. The South Italian gets 94% South Italian. Don't know why it doesn't get 100% but 94% is close enough. The Jew gets a decent chunk of Samaritan as well as some German. They seem to have little to no North Italian, unlike the popularly believed narrative that they're half-North Italian (and half-Levantine).

https://i.imgur.com/9gDcSuc.png

But anyways, they're not converted Romans, just superficially very similar on an autosomal level (though they do have a lot of Roman/Italian blood).

This nMonte runner is very limiting because you can run only up to 4 reference populations at once. There are better ways to run it with more populations. But if you have to use just 4 then try Tuscans instead of Bergamo, ancient Levant instead of Samaritans, Poles instead of Germans, and Greeks instead of South Italians.

Try using Canaanites from Lebanon instead of Samaritans.

Are they in Global25? If not then use Bronze Age Jordan.

[Mingle]

Doesn't reflect ibd sharing though.

How Levantine are they based on IBD sharing? IBD sharing doesn't say much about how much autosomal components they have anyways.


That's because North Italians during the Roman Empire were probably more similar to modern South Italians. I think Jews are closer to 70% European ancestry rather than 50% but it's mostly South Italian-like.

Yeah, but people were previously saying they get modeled as half-modern North Italian based on their GEDmatch oracle.

[JohnSmith]

Not sure if there is a real proper definition of a Roman.

[Mingle]

Yeah he didn't choose the right populations for that model.

Long ago on Anthrogenica Agamemnon posted some models:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11124-A-new-paper-on-Ashkenazi-Jews&p=253600&viewfull=1#post253600

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?214281-How-Polish-are-Ashkenazi-Jews

Also some Greek admixture is possible for Ashkenazi Jews.

Nice fit, but this guy is checking for their ancestry going back to pre-historic times. The thread is more about how much they mixed with Europeans after leaving Asia.


This nMonte runner is very limiting because you can run only up to 4 reference populations at once. There are better ways to run it with more populations. But if you have to use just 4 then try Tuscans instead of Bergamo, ancient Levant instead of Samaritans, Poles instead of Germans, and Greeks instead of South Italians.

Try using Canaanites from Lebanon instead of Samaritans.

Are they in Global25? If not then use Bronze Age Jordan.

Poles and Germans don't work. It's weird how sometimes you can get over 10% for both of them but neither of them were working when I was just trying them now.

When I use South Italians, Greeks, and Tuscans; then Tuscan disappears.

Samaritan fits better than Levant_BA_South.

This is the best fit I could get:


Fit = 1.2858

Greek = 20
Italian South = 55.83
Levant BA South = 7.5
Samaritan = 16.67

[FinalFlash]

YDNA, atDNA and IBD sharing suggests they're not, but that they do have a very large amount of Italian DNA.

Plotting is very simplistic. My girlfriend is half-Euro half-Chinese. She plots with the Hazara. She is not Hazara.

Honestly, is it actual Italian DNA or simply EEF? I agree with your point about plotting being simplistic.

[renaissance12]

Not sure if there is a real proper definition of a Roman.

In 3 century A.D. There Were 100 Milions Ancient Roman Citizens From North England To Mesopotamia...........But Not All Slaves Were Citizens.

[ModernMaskil]

Yeah, but people were previously saying they get modeled as half-modern North Italian based on their GEDmatch oracle.

Look at my signature.

[Imperator Biff]

Nah, but the romans were converted Jews.

[Longbowman]

Honestly, is it actual Italian DNA or simply EEF? I agree with your point about plotting being simplistic.

Ibd sharing makes it clear it's italian

[ModernMaskil]

Ibd sharing makes it clear it's italian

Do you have any articles at hand on IBD sharing among Ashkenazim? Or at least some more recent studies detailing anything new.

[Longbowman]

Do you have any articles at hand on IBD sharing among Ashkenazim? Or at least some more recent studies detailing anything new.

No and I'm on my phone so sadly I must decline finding them. Remind me in three weeks when I'm back home and I will

[ModernMaskil]

No and I'm on my phone so sadly I must decline finding them. Remind me in three weeks when I'm back home and I will

Not a problem. Will do, thanks.

[Kenshiro]

Imperial Roman DNA is quite similar to Philistine/Ancient Greek DNA, they may also have acquired this type of DNA from the Philistines

[Sarmale]

I don't think so, although it seems it became one component of what eventually turned into Ashkenazi Jews, which is more complicated. Still, interesting stuff.

[Balboa]

Yes it's the most agreed origin between scholars, when the Jews got kicked out of Sicily and southern Italy which used to be hotspots for Jews they moved to eastern europe, this is why they cluster so much with Greeks and Southern Italians, because essentially they are Jewish Calabrians and Sicilians

[Nurzat]

still, when someone has a hint of Jewish ancestry they show Levantine populations in their mix with G25 - they can be successfully modelled with southern Italians as well, but the populations the calculators pick first are Levantine/Canaanite, which I think shows that is the defining underlying ancestral component of Jews

[Leto]

I wonder if a hypothetical person that is 62.5% Southern Italian, 25% Lebanese and 12.5% Polish would plot firmly in the Ashkenazi Jewish cluster.

[Melkiirs]

I wonder if a hypothetical person that is 62.5% Southern Italian, 25% Lebanese and 12.5% Polish would plot firmly in the Ashkenazi Jewish cluster.

Using Sicilian_Central, Lebanese_Christian, and Polish G25 averages, that hypothetical indivudal clusters closer to most Ashkenazi Jews than my somewhat atypical father does with his East Eurasian shift.

PCA:
https://i.ibb.co/PZ15qMq/PCAHAJ.png (https://ibb.co/5Ws5bkb)

Distances:
Distance to: HypotheticalAJ
0.01130658 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.01217783 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.01406453 Sicilian_Central
0.01615971 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.01650861 Ashkenazi_Austria
0.01672427 Ashkenazi_Latvia
0.01714260 Ashkenazi_Belarus
0.01756888 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.01767011 Sicilian_East_Syracuse
0.01823698 Sicilian_East
0.02025238 Italian_Campania
0.02084053 Greek_Crete
0.02094731 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.02103036 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.02106353 Italian_Apulia
0.02126152 Italian_Calabria
0.02126490 Maltese
0.02205049 Italian_Basilicata
0.02235129 Sicilian_West
0.02239385 Sicilian_West_Trapani
0.02251614 Ashkenazi_France
0.02340583 Greek_Crete_Lasithi
0.02439209 Greek_Apulia
0.02476588 Greek_Crete_Chania
0.02477672 Italian_Abruzzo

Distance to: MilkanerDad_scaled(Ashkenazi)
0.01977926 Ashkenazi_Latvia
0.02005508 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02141832 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.02159262 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.02512617 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.02517638 Ashkenazi_Austria
0.02633920 Ashkenazi_Belarus
0.02636401 Sicilian_Central
0.03297580 Sicilian_East
0.03315599 Sicilian_East_Syracuse
0.03337725 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03411222 Sicilian_West_Trapani
0.03424256 Ashkenazi_France
0.03443390 Sicilian_West
0.03457081 Maltese
0.03562759 Greek_Crete
0.03567868 Greek_Crete_Lasithi
0.03581059 Greek_Crete_Chania
0.03692774 Greek_Crete_Heraklion
0.03699750 Italian_Campania
0.03718848 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.03724997 Italian_Apulia
0.03756266 Italian_Calabria
0.03759855 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.03767738 Italian_Jew

[Leto]

Using Sicilian_Central, Lebanese_Christian, and Polish G25 averages, that hypothetical indivudal clusters closer to most Ashkenazi Jews than my somewhat atypical father does with his East Eurasian shift.

PCA:
https://i.ibb.co/PZ15qMq/PCAHAJ.png (https://ibb.co/5Ws5bkb)

Distances:
Distance to: HypotheticalAJ
0.01130658 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.01217783 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.01406453 Sicilian_Central
0.01615971 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.01650861 Ashkenazi_Austria
0.01672427 Ashkenazi_Latvia
0.01714260 Ashkenazi_Belarus
0.01756888 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.01767011 Sicilian_East_Syracuse
0.01823698 Sicilian_East
0.02025238 Italian_Campania
0.02084053 Greek_Crete
0.02094731 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.02103036 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.02106353 Italian_Apulia
0.02126152 Italian_Calabria
0.02126490 Maltese
0.02205049 Italian_Basilicata
0.02235129 Sicilian_West
0.02239385 Sicilian_West_Trapani
0.02251614 Ashkenazi_France
0.02340583 Greek_Crete_Lasithi
0.02439209 Greek_Apulia
0.02476588 Greek_Crete_Chania
0.02477672 Italian_Abruzzo

Distance to: MilkanerDad_scaled(Ashkenazi)
0.01977926 Ashkenazi_Latvia
0.02005508 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02141832 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.02159262 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.02512617 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.02517638 Ashkenazi_Austria
0.02633920 Ashkenazi_Belarus
0.02636401 Sicilian_Central
0.03297580 Sicilian_East
0.03315599 Sicilian_East_Syracuse
0.03337725 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03411222 Sicilian_West_Trapani
0.03424256 Ashkenazi_France
0.03443390 Sicilian_West
0.03457081 Maltese
0.03562759 Greek_Crete
0.03567868 Greek_Crete_Lasithi
0.03581059 Greek_Crete_Chania
0.03692774 Greek_Crete_Heraklion
0.03699750 Italian_Campania
0.03718848 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.03724997 Italian_Apulia
0.03756266 Italian_Calabria
0.03759855 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.03767738 Italian_Jew
So you have somehow generated that specific mix that I suggested? Interesting. It is pretty much an average Eastern Ashkenazi. However I would use Calabria instead, the most Middle Eastern-shifted province in Italy.

Perhaps the origin of the Ashkenazim is rather something of that kind and not the Lebanese-North Italian meme.

[Melkiirs]

So you have somehow generated that specific mix that I suggested? Interesting. It is pretty much an average Eastern Ashkenazi. However I would use Calabria instead, the most Middle Eastern-shifted province in Italy.

Perhaps the origin of the Ashkenazim is rather something of that kind and not the Lebanese-North Italian meme.

Generating predicated G25 coordinates for a certain mixture can easily be done using this tool and the official datasheet:
https://dna-tools.xyz/

I used Sicilian_Central just because it produces the best fit among Italian regions combined with Lebanese_Christian and Polish. Central Sicily is still closer to Greeks than the other Sicilian averages.

Regarding North Italians of Late Antiquity being the primary source of Southern Euro admixture admixture there is not evidence either historical or genetic (e.g. IBD sharing). The Southern European admixture likely dates back to Hellenistic Judaism.