Southern Albania

[Epirus DNA]

The southern Albanians. Thus until today, the biggest minority in Albania numerically are the Greeks of Himara (the only group of the area that did not Albanize).

Notably the southern Albanians differ genetically from the Kosovars, Tetovo & Northern Albanians.

The Tosk Albanians are clustered with Greeks to the Aegean group while the rest are distantly genetically different & can be clustered along with Romanians, Slavs, and even Germans.

The southern Albanians? Are they Greek or Albanian?

[xripkan]

I wouldn't say the Tosks are Greek. Yes they have some Greek admixture. We could say mixed hellenic-Illyrian with some Thracian ancestry maybe. I don't know how exactly the two Albanian tribes were created but despite the differences both are Balkan shifted.

[safinator]

Tosk Albanians are a bit more southern shifted than Ghegs and both much more northern shifted than Aegean greeks.

[Ujku]

We are more med than Northen Albos but in no way close to a Cretan for example .

Only Epirots ..

[xripkan]

We are more med than Northen Albos but in no way close to a Cretan for example .

Only Epirots ..

Could you post your gedmatch?

[Epirus DNA]

Could you post your gedmatch?

GedMatch Reults
MDLP K16 Modern
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15
Dodecad K12b
puntDNAL K15


MDLP K16 Modern Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 38.1
2 Neolithic 27.82
3 NorthEastEuropean 15.56
4 Steppe 12.98
5 NearEast 4.03
6 NorthAfrican 1.04
7 Ancestor 0.4
8 Siberian 0.07

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Thessaloniki) 2.58
2 Albanian (Albania) 2.79
3 Greek (Greece) 3.6
4 Kosovar (Kosovo) 4.28
5 Greek (Peloponnes) 4.34
6 Greek (Macedonia) 5.72
7 Gagauz (Gagauzia) 6.29
8 Italian (Abruzzo) 6.4
9 Greek (Athens) 6.6
10 Italian (Tuscany) 7.34
11 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 7.49
12 Sicilian (Sicily) 7.68
13 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 7.8
14 Italian (SouthItaly) 7.85
15 Macedonian (Macedonia) 8.11
16 Greek (Greece) 8.43
17 Italian (NorthIitaly) 8.59
18 Maltese (Malta) 9.09
19 Romanian (Romania) 9.14
20 Jew (Ashkenazi) 9.32

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89.5% Kosovar (Kosovo) + 10.5% Turk (Trabzon) @ 2.25
2 69.3% Kosovar (Kosovo) + 30.7% Greek (Greece) @ 2.32
3 91.8% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 8.2% Greek (Greece) @ 2.48
4 97.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 2.1% Turk (Trabzon) @ 2.49
5 97.7% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 2.3% Druze (Mount_Carmel) @ 2.51
6 98.1% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.9% Armenian (Armenia) @ 2.52
7 98.5% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.5% Georgian (Tbilisi) @ 2.52
8 98.2% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.8% Jew (Iraqi) @ 2.52
9 98.3% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.7% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.52
10 91.1% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 8.9% Greek (Macedonia) @ 2.53
11 98.4% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.6% Georgian (Megrelia) @ 2.53
12 97.7% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 2.3% Cypriot (Cyprus) @ 2.54
13 98.6% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.4% Jew (Iran) @ 2.54
14 98.8% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.2% Georgians (Zugdidi) @ 2.55
15 98.7% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.3% Georgian (Georgia) @ 2.55
16 98.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.1% Abhkasian (Abkhasia) @ 2.56
17 98.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.1% Adjar (Adjaria) @ 2.56
18 99% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 2.56
19 98.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.1% Assyrian (Armenia) @ 2.56
20 99% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1% Abkhazian_Lykhny (Lykhny) @ 2.57


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 22.69
2 West_Med 16.59
3 North_Sea 14.83
4 West_Asian 13.57
5 Baltic 11.56
6 Atlantic 10.13
7 Eastern_Euro 7.67
8 Red_Sea 2.35
9 Siberian 0.37
10 Oceanian 0.17
11 Sub-Saharan 0.07

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.62
2 Greek 7.03
3 Central_Greek 8.67
4 Bulgarian 9.22
5 Ashkenazi 9.39
6 Italian_Abruzzo 9.92
7 East_Sicilian 10.11
8 Romanian 10.73
9 Tuscan 11.6
10 West_Sicilian 12.17
11 South_Italian 12.28
12 Serbian 13.95
13 North_Italian 15.78
14 Italian_Jewish 16.25
15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.63
16 Algerian_Jewish 17.81
17 Moldavian 18.48
18 Hungarian 20.82
19 Libyan_Jewish 21.14
20 Croatian 21.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.4% Greek_Thessaly + 5.6% Tabassaran @ 3.03
2 94.4% Greek_Thessaly + 5.6% Lezgin @ 3.04
3 94.7% Greek_Thessaly + 5.3% Kumyk @ 3.23
4 95.6% Greek_Thessaly + 4.4% Chechen @ 3.23
5 96.1% Greek_Thessaly + 3.9% Chuvash @ 3.24
6 95.5% Greek_Thessaly + 4.5% Kabardin @ 3.26
7 95.8% Greek_Thessaly + 4.2% Adygei @ 3.27
8 95.8% Greek_Thessaly + 4.2% Balkar @ 3.29
9 96.8% Greek_Thessaly + 3.2% Mari @ 3.3
10 96.2% Greek_Thessaly + 3.8% Ossetian @ 3.32
11 96.3% Greek_Thessaly + 3.7% North_Ossetian @ 3.32
12 96% Greek_Thessaly + 4% Erzya @ 3.34
13 96.5% Greek_Thessaly + 3.5% Georgian @ 3.35
14 96.9% Greek_Thessaly + 3.1% Abhkasian @ 3.35
15 95.8% Greek_Thessaly + 4.2% Tatar @ 3.37
16 95.9% Greek_Thessaly + 4.1% Nogay @ 3.37
17 96.5% Greek_Thessaly + 3.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.42
18 96.2% Greek_Thessaly + 3.8% Armenian @ 3.44
19 96.4% Greek_Thessaly + 3.6% Kurdish @ 3.45
20 96.5% Greek_Thessaly + 3.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.45


Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.11
2 Atlantic_Med 26.94
3 North_European 24.32
4 Southwest_Asian 8.12
5 Gedrosia 6.13
6 Northwest_African 1.41
7 Siberian 0.97

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 6.96
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.45
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.08
4 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 10.75
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 11.14
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.76
7 Romanians (Behar) 12.13
8 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.46
9 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 13.22
10 Sicilian (Dodecad) 13.27
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 13.49
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.88
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 15.87
14 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.28
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.66
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.7
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.93
18 Cypriots (Behar) 26.14
19 Turks (Behar) 26.26
20 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.68

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 44.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 52.2% Romanians (Behar) + 47.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.41
3 54.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.9% German (Dodecad) @ 2.62
4 55.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 44.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.66
5 52.4% Romanians (Behar) + 47.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.68
6 77.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.7
7 77.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.5% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.71
8 77.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.73
9 76.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.83
10 75.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.7% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.93
11 77.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.93
12 54.6% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 45.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.98
13 86.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.2% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.01
14 83% Greek (Dodecad) + 17% German (Dodecad) @ 3.04
15 81% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.04
16 80% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.06
17 86.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.1
18 77.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.13
19 76.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.9% Polish (Dodecad) @ 3.18
20 61.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 38.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.21



puntDNAL K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 36.17
2 NE_European 33
3 Caucasian 20.92
4 SW_Asian 7.77
5 Horn_Of_Africa 0.59
6 Omo_River 0.53
7 Oceanian 0.43
8 Siberian 0.35
9 Beringian 0.23
10 S_African 0.02

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 2.22
2 Albanian 3.72
3 Greek_Central 4.36
4 Tuscan 4.72
5 Italian 6.76
6 Montenegrin 6.81
7 Bulgarian 8.12
8 Romanian 8.73
9 Macedonian 9.87
10 Bosnian 12.22
11 Ashkenazy_Jew 12.44
12 Sicilian 13.61
13 Portuguese 15.17
14 Brazilian 15.44
15 Spaniard 15.79
16 Serbian 15.99
17 Sephardic_Jew 16.35
18 French 18.66
19 South_German 21.09
20 Croatian 21.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.2% Scottish + 48.8% Cypriot @ 1.18
2 52.9% English + 47.1% Cypriot @ 1.26
3 76.6% Romanian + 23.4% Cypriot @ 1.47
4 56.3% Utahn_White + 43.7% Cypriot @ 1.47
5 52.5% Orcadian + 47.5% Cypriot @ 1.49
6 61.9% Greek_Central + 38.1% Montenegrin @ 1.58
7 81.2% Greek_Thessaly + 18.8% Montenegrin @ 1.6
8 91.3% Greek_Thessaly + 8.7% Spaniard @ 1.63
9 85.2% Greek_Thessaly + 14.8% Romanian @ 1.64
10 84.3% Greek_Thessaly + 15.7% Bulgarian @ 1.65
11 81.7% Greek_Thessaly + 18.3% Italian @ 1.66
12 53.4% Irish + 46.6% Cypriot @ 1.66
13 57.2% South_German + 42.8% Cypriot @ 1.67
14 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% French @ 1.67
15 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% South_German @ 1.73
16 87.6% Greek_Thessaly + 12.4% Macedonian @ 1.73
17 94.1% Greek_Thessaly + 5.9% Utahn_White @ 1.74
18 94.9% Greek_Thessaly + 5.1% English @ 1.75
19 74.3% Macedonian + 25.7% Cypriot @ 1.75
20 94.5% Greek_Thessaly + 5.5% Basque @ 1.75

[xripkan]

GedMatch Reults
MDLP K16 Modern
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15
Dodecad K12b
puntDNAL K15


MDLP K16 Modern Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 38.1
2 Neolithic 27.82
3 NorthEastEuropean 15.56
4 Steppe 12.98
5 NearEast 4.03
6 NorthAfrican 1.04
7 Ancestor 0.4
8 Siberian 0.07

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Thessaloniki) 2.58
2 Albanian (Albania) 2.79
3 Greek (Greece) 3.6
4 Kosovar (Kosovo) 4.28
5 Greek (Peloponnes) 4.34
6 Greek (Macedonia) 5.72
7 Gagauz (Gagauzia) 6.29
8 Italian (Abruzzo) 6.4
9 Greek (Athens) 6.6
10 Italian (Tuscany) 7.34
11 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 7.49
12 Sicilian (Sicily) 7.68
13 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 7.8
14 Italian (SouthItaly) 7.85
15 Macedonian (Macedonia) 8.11
16 Greek (Greece) 8.43
17 Italian (NorthIitaly) 8.59
18 Maltese (Malta) 9.09
19 Romanian (Romania) 9.14
20 Jew (Ashkenazi) 9.32

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89.5% Kosovar (Kosovo) + 10.5% Turk (Trabzon) @ 2.25
2 69.3% Kosovar (Kosovo) + 30.7% Greek (Greece) @ 2.32
3 91.8% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 8.2% Greek (Greece) @ 2.48
4 97.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 2.1% Turk (Trabzon) @ 2.49
5 97.7% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 2.3% Druze (Mount_Carmel) @ 2.51
6 98.1% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.9% Armenian (Armenia) @ 2.52
7 98.5% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.5% Georgian (Tbilisi) @ 2.52
8 98.2% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.8% Jew (Iraqi) @ 2.52
9 98.3% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.7% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.52
10 91.1% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 8.9% Greek (Macedonia) @ 2.53
11 98.4% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.6% Georgian (Megrelia) @ 2.53
12 97.7% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 2.3% Cypriot (Cyprus) @ 2.54
13 98.6% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.4% Jew (Iran) @ 2.54
14 98.8% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.2% Georgians (Zugdidi) @ 2.55
15 98.7% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.3% Georgian (Georgia) @ 2.55
16 98.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.1% Abhkasian (Abkhasia) @ 2.56
17 98.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.1% Adjar (Adjaria) @ 2.56
18 99% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 2.56
19 98.9% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1.1% Assyrian (Armenia) @ 2.56
20 99% Greek (Thessaloniki) + 1% Abkhazian_Lykhny (Lykhny) @ 2.57


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 22.69
2 West_Med 16.59
3 North_Sea 14.83
4 West_Asian 13.57
5 Baltic 11.56
6 Atlantic 10.13
7 Eastern_Euro 7.67
8 Red_Sea 2.35
9 Siberian 0.37
10 Oceanian 0.17
11 Sub-Saharan 0.07

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.62
2 Greek 7.03
3 Central_Greek 8.67
4 Bulgarian 9.22
5 Ashkenazi 9.39
6 Italian_Abruzzo 9.92
7 East_Sicilian 10.11
8 Romanian 10.73
9 Tuscan 11.6
10 West_Sicilian 12.17
11 South_Italian 12.28
12 Serbian 13.95
13 North_Italian 15.78
14 Italian_Jewish 16.25
15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.63
16 Algerian_Jewish 17.81
17 Moldavian 18.48
18 Hungarian 20.82
19 Libyan_Jewish 21.14
20 Croatian 21.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.4% Greek_Thessaly + 5.6% Tabassaran @ 3.03
2 94.4% Greek_Thessaly + 5.6% Lezgin @ 3.04
3 94.7% Greek_Thessaly + 5.3% Kumyk @ 3.23
4 95.6% Greek_Thessaly + 4.4% Chechen @ 3.23
5 96.1% Greek_Thessaly + 3.9% Chuvash @ 3.24
6 95.5% Greek_Thessaly + 4.5% Kabardin @ 3.26
7 95.8% Greek_Thessaly + 4.2% Adygei @ 3.27
8 95.8% Greek_Thessaly + 4.2% Balkar @ 3.29
9 96.8% Greek_Thessaly + 3.2% Mari @ 3.3
10 96.2% Greek_Thessaly + 3.8% Ossetian @ 3.32
11 96.3% Greek_Thessaly + 3.7% North_Ossetian @ 3.32
12 96% Greek_Thessaly + 4% Erzya @ 3.34
13 96.5% Greek_Thessaly + 3.5% Georgian @ 3.35
14 96.9% Greek_Thessaly + 3.1% Abhkasian @ 3.35
15 95.8% Greek_Thessaly + 4.2% Tatar @ 3.37
16 95.9% Greek_Thessaly + 4.1% Nogay @ 3.37
17 96.5% Greek_Thessaly + 3.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.42
18 96.2% Greek_Thessaly + 3.8% Armenian @ 3.44
19 96.4% Greek_Thessaly + 3.6% Kurdish @ 3.45
20 96.5% Greek_Thessaly + 3.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.45


Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.11
2 Atlantic_Med 26.94
3 North_European 24.32
4 Southwest_Asian 8.12
5 Gedrosia 6.13
6 Northwest_African 1.41
7 Siberian 0.97

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 6.96
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.45
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.08
4 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 10.75
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 11.14
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.76
7 Romanians (Behar) 12.13
8 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.46
9 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 13.22
10 Sicilian (Dodecad) 13.27
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 13.49
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.88
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 15.87
14 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.28
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.66
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.7
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.93
18 Cypriots (Behar) 26.14
19 Turks (Behar) 26.26
20 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.68

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 44.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 52.2% Romanians (Behar) + 47.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.41
3 54.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.9% German (Dodecad) @ 2.62
4 55.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 44.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.66
5 52.4% Romanians (Behar) + 47.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.68
6 77.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.7
7 77.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.5% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.71
8 77.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.73
9 76.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.83
10 75.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.7% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.93
11 77.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.93
12 54.6% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 45.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.98
13 86.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.2% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.01
14 83% Greek (Dodecad) + 17% German (Dodecad) @ 3.04
15 81% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.04
16 80% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.06
17 86.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.1
18 77.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.13
19 76.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.9% Polish (Dodecad) @ 3.18
20 61.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 38.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.21



puntDNAL K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 36.17
2 NE_European 33
3 Caucasian 20.92
4 SW_Asian 7.77
5 Horn_Of_Africa 0.59
6 Omo_River 0.53
7 Oceanian 0.43
8 Siberian 0.35
9 Beringian 0.23
10 S_African 0.02

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 2.22
2 Albanian 3.72
3 Greek_Central 4.36
4 Tuscan 4.72
5 Italian 6.76
6 Montenegrin 6.81
7 Bulgarian 8.12
8 Romanian 8.73
9 Macedonian 9.87
10 Bosnian 12.22
11 Ashkenazy_Jew 12.44
12 Sicilian 13.61
13 Portuguese 15.17
14 Brazilian 15.44
15 Spaniard 15.79
16 Serbian 15.99
17 Sephardic_Jew 16.35
18 French 18.66
19 South_German 21.09
20 Croatian 21.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.2% Scottish + 48.8% Cypriot @ 1.18
2 52.9% English + 47.1% Cypriot @ 1.26
3 76.6% Romanian + 23.4% Cypriot @ 1.47
4 56.3% Utahn_White + 43.7% Cypriot @ 1.47
5 52.5% Orcadian + 47.5% Cypriot @ 1.49
6 61.9% Greek_Central + 38.1% Montenegrin @ 1.58
7 81.2% Greek_Thessaly + 18.8% Montenegrin @ 1.6
8 91.3% Greek_Thessaly + 8.7% Spaniard @ 1.63
9 85.2% Greek_Thessaly + 14.8% Romanian @ 1.64
10 84.3% Greek_Thessaly + 15.7% Bulgarian @ 1.65
11 81.7% Greek_Thessaly + 18.3% Italian @ 1.66
12 53.4% Irish + 46.6% Cypriot @ 1.66
13 57.2% South_German + 42.8% Cypriot @ 1.67
14 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% French @ 1.67
15 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% South_German @ 1.73
16 87.6% Greek_Thessaly + 12.4% Macedonian @ 1.73
17 94.1% Greek_Thessaly + 5.9% Utahn_White @ 1.74
18 94.9% Greek_Thessaly + 5.1% English @ 1.75
19 74.3% Macedonian + 25.7% Cypriot @ 1.75
20 94.5% Greek_Thessaly + 5.5% Basque @ 1.75


These are mine
Eurogenes k15
1 East_Med 24.43
2 Atlantic 17.62
3 West_Med 14.48
4 West_Asian 14.37
5 Baltic 10.69
6 North_Sea 7.72
7 Eastern_Euro 6.44
8 Red_Sea 2.73
9 Oceanian 0.84
10 South_Asian 0.68

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 3.76
2 Italian_Abruzzo 6.99
3 Central_Greek 7.29
4 West_Sicilian 8.38
5 East_Sicilian 8.55
6 Greek_Thessaly 8.63
7 Ashkenazi 9.32
8 South_Italian 9.71
9 Bulgarian 10.29
10 Tuscan 10.47
11 Romanian 12.97
12 Sephardic_Jewish 14.1
13 Italian_Jewish 14.25
14 Algerian_Jewish 15.18
15 North_Italian 15.51
16 Serbian 16.53
17 Tunisian_Jewish 18.11
18 Cyprian 19.76
19 Turkish 19.81
20 Libyan_Jewish 20.88

puntDNAL k15
# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 37.39
2 NE_European 28.65
3 Caucasian 21.55
4 SW_Asian 7.78
5 S_Indian 2.72
6 Oceanian 0.96
7 Siberian 0.48
8 W_African 0.28
9 Horn_Of_Africa 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 3.98
2 Tuscan 4.08
3 Greek_Thessaly 4.35
4 Albanian 4.44
5 Ashkenazy_Jew 9.06
6 Italian 9.68
7 Sicilian 10.25
8 Montenegrin 10.54
9 Bulgarian 11.92
10 Romanian 12.6
11 Sephardic_Jew 12.83
12 Macedonian 13.88
13 Bosnian 16.07
14 Brazilian 16.17
15 Portuguese 16.82
16 Spaniard 18.07
17 Serbian 20.02
18 French 22.29
19 Cypriot 24.53
20 Basque 24.63

I am mostly from Peloponnese. I would like to see Ujku's as well who is a Tosk Albanian and compare.

[Epirus DNA]

I am mostly from Peloponnese. I would like to see Ujku's as well who is a Tosk Albanian and compare.

Interesting. I see where we are similar and how we differ. I hope that Ujku will post his DNA GedMatch Results.

Via DNA / Genetics, the Tosk are inbetween Greeks (Thessaly) and Northern Albanians.

[Voskos]

There is no albania south of the acroceraunians. They are mutts of vlachs, Greeks,slavs and Ghegs living on Epirotic land. Tribes like the chams for example, are at least 50% slav/vlach that ended up speaking albanian.

[Albobalboa]

Lol @ mix. Greeks and vlachs are minor elements in south Albania. Albanians ran over that whole area a long time ago. The reason there are similarities is because 1. Albanians seeded pretty much all of mainland Greece, and 2. They mixed with the locals since most raiding Albanians naturally were men. More correct to state that Vlachs and Greeks in that region are Albanian influenced, as they differ from Greeks of other regions. While from my understanding Tosk and Gheg Albanians are more similar, disregarding Kosovars.

But I believe Kelmendasi had some kind of map which saw plotting of Tosks and Ghegs, would be interesting if it could be posted here. It's an interesting topic to see what extent Albanians from north Albania and south Albania are similar.

[Voskos]

Oh man, here we go again. Wherever you dig in north epirus, you albos find greek inscriptions. Whenever you test local albos you get very high I2/R1a which are slavoromanian etc. No need to explain further...

[Voskos]

...

[Skerdilaid]

Gedmatch calcs are not to be taken seriously, guys.


What differentiates Tosks from Ghegs, paternally speaking, is their higher Slavic and Germanic influence. Greek influence among Tosks is insignificant, barely visible (maybe not even 1%). But then again one needs to define what Greek influence represents, I guess. The ones that we have tested thus far from southern Albania seem be predominately I2-CTS10228/R1a, Greek speaking Bulgarians in other words.

[Voskos]

Skerdilaid, the medieval region of North Epirus was inhabited by hellenized Bayunites (wajunici) , a slavic tribe that settled the region and later got hellenized. How do we know these tested Greeks are not their descendants?

[Voskos]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiounitai

[Coolguy1]

Tosks show significantly more R1a/I2a and J2a when compared to Ghegs

[JQP4545]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiounitai

Wikipedia isn't a credible source :picard2: How do we know the I2a and R1a isn't local? The branches of Yamnaya that settled the Balkans originated around the Carpathians as well so maybe these haplogroups were brought with them. Additionally we don't have many samples of hunter gatherers from the Balkans and the ones that we do have are of a poor quality.

[Skerdilaid]

Skerdilaid, the medieval region of North Epirus was inhabited by hellenized Bayunites (wajunici) , a slavic tribe that settled the region and later got hellenized. How do we know these tested Greeks are not their descendants?

How does that make it Greek influence then? That’s still part of the Slavic influence I mentioned, either way.

[Skerdilaid]

Wikipedia isn't a credible source :picard2: How do we know the I2a and R1a isn't local? The branches of Yamnaya that settled the Balkans originated around the Carpathians as well so maybe these haplogroups were brought with them. Additionally we don't have many samples of hunter gatherers from the Balkans and the ones that we do have are of a poor quality.
:rotfl:

[Voskos]

My dear friend Skerdilaidas, if these slavs identified as Greeks prior to the arrival of Albanians then it simply proves that this land was until then inhabited by Greek-affiliated people. Concerning the issue of Greek admixture in Albos, I honestly do not care if they have any, but to me denying they do is like saying that Turks are 100% turkomans.

[Ujku]

There is no albania south of the acroceraunians. They are mutts of vlachs, Greeks,slavs and Ghegs living on Epirotic land. Tribes like the chams for example, are at least 50% slav/vlach that ended up speaking albanian.

Actually , chams are some of the most Albo lookings Albos..

[Voskos]

LOL!

[Epirus DNA]

Do Albanians have Minoan and Mycenaean Ancestry?

[MagnusDark]

Do Albanians have Minoan and Mycenaean Ancestry?

Minoan/Mycenaen "Like" Not directly. Only by proxy. J2a the only lines I think that were found in Proto-Greeks. Its rather low to non-existent in Albanians.

[MagnusDark]

Actually , chams are some of the most Albo lookings Albos..

The most basal Albanian YDNA lineages seem to be in Mirdita, and near Northern Regions. I imagine whatever Proto-Albanians looked like, those regions may be the closest given high concentrations of unmixed YDNA.

[Pubiczar]

I believe what differentiates the Tosks from Ghegs is not just higher I2a/R1a and J2a but lower J2b as well.
It seems that this haplo is the main difference and probably a Hallstatt/Illyrian influence from North-Western Balkans.
That would mean that I2a/R1a are more native to the area(Southern Albania) than J2b is...

[Ayetooey]

It's pretty obvious Tosks have nothing to do with real Albanians in the north; no tribal/clan culture, completely different autosomally, different Y dna clades; the distance between north Ghegs and Tosks on the ta PCA chart was the same distance as the Serb dot with Austrians.

Tosks are a combination of Aromanians + drunk mountain Greeks with a sprinkle of Slav manhood (heightened R1a/I2a in Tosks).

[Epirus DNA]

Albanians seem to be a mix of Proto-Greek from Yamnaya + Proto-Italio-Celt.
I think they are missing the Minoan genes from the Kura-Araxes Culture but get the Mycenaean Mainland mixture. I think Eprius was a breeding ground for these three peoples: Proto-Greek from Yamnaya + Proto-Italio-Celtic + Mycenaeans.

Any thoughts?
I have been looking at this map a lot lately--

https://i.imgur.com/4NnQAOK.jpg

[Epirus DNA]

Minoan/Mycenaen "Like" Not directly. Only by proxy. J2a the only lines I think that were found in Proto-Greeks. Its rather low to non-existent in Albanians.

I thought that J2a came from Kura-Araxes cutlure and the Proto-Greeks came from the Yamnaya. In the Late Yamnaya, Proto-Greeks settled the Greek Mainland and Anatolia... but I think the J2a distribution came from the Minoan's & Mycenaean's and the Hg traveled North, not Proto-Greeks from Yamanya and the Hg traveling to the South. Does this make sense or am I making a mistake in this line of thought?

[Hulu]

It's pretty obvious Tosks have nothing to do with real Albanians in the north; no tribal/clan culture, completely different autosomally, different Y dna clades; the distance between north Ghegs and Tosks on the ta PCA chart was the same distance as the Serb dot with Austrians.

Tosks are a combination of Aromanians + drunk mountain Greeks with a sprinkle of Slav manhood (heightened R1a/I2a in Tosks).

Yeah, we just share blood with them. And language. And history.

[MagnusDark]

It's pretty obvious Tosks have nothing to do with real Albanians in the north; no tribal/clan culture, completely different autosomally, different Y dna clades; the distance between north Ghegs and Tosks on the ta PCA chart was the same distance as the Serb dot with Austrians.

Tosks are a combination of Aromanians + drunk mountain Greeks with a sprinkle of Slav manhood (heightened R1a/I2a in Tosks).

You are either trolling, or you don't really have any idea what you're really talking about. Of only 267 Tosks tests(mostly low res tests btw), only 26 percent fall into J2a/R1a/I2a. With exception of 1 or 2 J2a, most of them split off from Greek J2a in then Iron/Bronze Ages. Hence nothing recent, all ancient. If you think 6 percent is such a great Greek impact I feel sorry for you.

Additionally, I2a1b seems to be shared with Romanian/Vlach/Bulgarian I2a1b. Very little PH908(most dominant variety in West Balkans). Most of the Proto-Slavic tribes in Albania were assimilated in the early middle ages by the Byzantines. Some more came with the Bulgarian empire.

R1a Albanians all seem to cluster with each other and all their R1a Slavic matches are 2100-2300ypb. So insignificant to even call it recent at this point. Even one R1a-L1029 Syrian was of Albanian origin and shared match with other L1029 Albanians in the group.

My specific branch is an Albanian founder effect and most of my distant matches are Germans, Scandinvians, Adyghe, Tatars, Western Poles.

Autosomal of most Albanians cluster together regardless of the region. Also, IBD(identity by descent) sharing is far more important for determining actual relations. Albanians have very high IBD sharing with each other from north to south tracing to a common proto-population between 100BC & 500AD.

As a whole, Greeks have far more input from Slavs and Vlachs than do southern Albanians. Even Proto-Slavs and Germanics left a bigger YDNA imprint in South Albania so far than Greeks did. Southern Slavs have more native input than they do their own(outside of West Balkan South Slavs)(exluding Montenegrins).

Homogeneous means very tightly related. Greeks are less homogeneous(at least in the north/north-east) as compared to southern Greeks & Island Greeks. South-Slavs are also very heterogeneous(mixed). Bulgarians are the most native shifted of Southern Slavs, even clustering partially with Greeks.

So technically Northern Greeks are paternally more Slavo-Vlachoid-Albanoid-Greeks by proto-ancestor than South Albanians are in the reverse.

don't confuse autosomal algorithms for hard science. While useful its not more valid than IBD sharing.

[Pribislav]

It's pretty obvious Tosks have nothing to do with real Albanians in the north; no tribal/clan culture, completely different autosomally, different Y dna clades; the distance between north Ghegs and Tosks on the ta PCA chart was the same distance as the Serb dot with Austrians.

Tosks are a combination of Aromanians + drunk mountain Greeks with a sprinkle of Slav manhood (heightened R1a/I2a in Tosks).

Yea, Tosks are prodominantly albanized Vlachs (Aromanians). Both Tosks and Aromanians carry tendency to trade, they have calmer mentality than Ghegs, they have Byzantine vibe unlike Ghegs, they have a lot of Meds and Alpinids...

Southern Albania was full of Vlachs in the past, and today there is only few of them.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Ghegs got Slavic admixture also, but it's more maternal compared to Tosks. IMHO, main difference in clustering among Albos isn't really some kind of foreign influence but the fact that Northern Illyrians were Celtic admixed compared to Hellenic admixed southern Illyrians.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Yea, Tosks are prodominantly albanized Vlachs (Aromanians). Both Tosks and Aromanians carry tendency to trade, they have calmer mentality than Ghegs, they have Byzantine vibe unlike Ghegs, they have a lot of Meds and Alpinids...

Southern Albania was full of Vlachs in the past, and today there is only few of them.

It is pretty dumb to say Tosks are albanised Vlachs when Vlachs are language shifters, nothing original about them.
More correct would be to say Vlachs are romanised Albanians, Greeks and other native Balkan tribes than the opposite.

[Ayetooey]

You are either trolling, or you don't really have any idea what you're really talking about. Of only 267 Tosks tests(mostly low res tests btw), only 26 percent fall into J2a/R1a/I2a. With exception of 1 or 2 J2a, most of them split off from Greek J2a in then Iron/Bronze Ages. Hence nothing recent, all ancient. If you think 6 percent is such a great Greek impact I feel sorry for you.

Additionally, I2a1b seems to be shared with Romanian/Vlach/Bulgarian I2a1b. Very little PH908(most dominant variety in West Balkans). Most of the Proto-Slavic tribes in Albania were assimilated in the early middle ages. Some more came with the Bulgarian empire.

R1a Albanians all seem to cluster with each other and all their R1a Slavic matches are 2100-2300ypb. So insignificant to even call it recent at this point. Even one R1a-L1029 Syrian was of Albanian origin and shared match with other L1029 Albanians in the group.

My specific branch is an Albanian founder effect and most of my distant matches are Germans, Scandinvians, Adyghe, Tatars, Western Poles.

Autosomal of most Albanians cluster together regardless of the region. Also, IBD(identity by descent) sharing is far more important for determining actual relations. Albanians have very high IBD sharing with each other from north to south tracing to a common proto-population between 100BC & 500AD.

As a whole, Greeks have far more input from Slavs and Vlachs than do southern Albanians. Even Proto-Slavs and Germanics left a bigger YDNA imprint in South Albania so far than Greeks did. Southern Slavs have more native input than they do their own(outside of West Balkan South Slavs)(exluding Montenegrins).

Homogeneous means very tightly related. Greeks are less homogeneous(at least in the north/north-east) as compared to southern Greeks & Island Greeks. South-Slavs are also very heterogeneous(mixed). Bulgarians are the most native shifted of Southern Slavs, even clustering partially with Greeks.

So technically Northern Greeks are paternally more Slavo-Vlachoid-Albanoid-Greeks by proto-ancestor than South Albanians are in the reverse.

don't confuse autosomal algorithms for hard science. While useful its not more valid than IBD sharing.

No one said Tosks are all I2a/R1a, but they're heightened in these Y dna's which simply don't exist in Kosovars; moreover, the clades they have are not shared with north Albos who all share clan history and paternal lineage. I never claimed Tosks have I2-PH908; they mainly have dinaric north clades from Antes and later on Bulgur excursions. I never claimed North Greeks weren't slavo/vlach shifted; but this thread isn't about Greeks, but about Albos, so you're back tracking.

The distance between Tosks and North Ghegs on the k15 PCA is bigger than the distance between Serbia and Austria; one of the smallest, most isolated nations in Europe has one of the larger PCA distances between it's north/south. You could group together every south slavic country, from Slovenia to Bulgaria, and it'd be a more compact PCA than a Tosk/Gheg one. We all know that region was always Greek/Aromanian; there is 100s of thousands of Greeks who live in the south who aren't allowed to declare as their true ethnicity, with 18% of Albania not declaring in the 2011 census.

IBD sharing is important but it should only be used in combination with autosomal plotting; the Serb nation is significantly larger than the Albanian one, and in terms of "native" settlements, covers a much more significant distance, from North Croatia/South Slovenia, down to parts of North Macedonia and North Albania. The Serb cluster is significantly smaller on almost every PCA when compared to the Albanian ones. Even the Romanian cluster, with Romania being around the same size as the whole of former Yugoslavia, is smaller than the Albanian one; and Romanians are very diverse based on region. The PCA below is a kind example; I've seen much more extreme distances between you lot.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/562623517598679040/581486430497538064/unknown.png

[Dorian]

I thought that J2a came from Kura-Araxes cutlure and the Proto-Greeks came from the Yamnaya. In the Late Yamnaya, Proto-Greeks settled the Greek Mainland and Anatolia... but I think the J2a distribution came from the Minoan's & Mycenaean's and the Hg traveled North, not Proto-Greeks from Yamanya and the Hg traveling to the South. Does this make sense or am I making a mistake in this line of thought?

These "tribes" are a weird story ,Mycenaeans(called after the area in Peloponnese) have the other name also Achaeans(again after an area in Peloponnese) while they are also called an "Aeolic" or protoAeolic tribe ..If you will.

What we have https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GfnJDHQjgxQ/WZf-3q-ax3I/AAAAAAAAGao/5ARnDndb_ywgrDU1Dc3zYH46RIE6b7UvACLcBGAs/s400/Untitled.png

The "Confederation"


But as we have seen in the Minoans, reality has to be much more complex. First of all, the Aeolians were the first to be merged with the Aegean natives and the other arriving Indo-Europeans (mostly Louwians) to give the alloy of the Minoans. The Achaeans found ground for their establishment in Greece, but they soon had to recognize the sovereignty of the culturally superior Minoans. The history of Theseus and Minotaur, or that of Cadmus, Europe, and so many other Middle Eastern blossom bears the mythology of the Greeks only as a consequence of such an imposition of the cosmopolitan of Crete are explained. Also, finding so close castropoles with royal tombs (Pylos, Amyklis, Mycenae, Tiryns, Elefsina, Athens, Vravrona, Marathon, Thebes, Delphi, Orchomenos, Iolkos) is explained by a "loose confederation of barons" of the seashore. The seed of the coexistence of "city-states", which later led to the birth of democracy, had come from the years of Minoan Peace.


On the other hand, the explosion of Thira was the prelude to the fall of Crete and its final submission to its former protectorate. The recent dating of the explosion around 1613 BC (+/- 13 years) fits almost perfectly with the supposed beginning of the Mycenaean invasion around 1635 BC. The ... magnificence of the Minoan King Katrea to marry his daughters of Aeropi and Klymeni with the Achaeans Nafplio and Plistheni (father of Agamemnon and Menelaos) is now explained as a diplomatic effort to keep the "barons" away from the injured Crete. But things had taken their new turn. The transfer of the power pole was made and proved to be the beginning of the creation of vaulted tombs for the kings of Mycenae (from the 16th century BC), even with the Minoan DNA in their bones.


Cyclopean walls


There was, therefore, a four-centuries osmosis between the Minoans and Mycenae, before the latter prevailed. An osmosis that becomes evident in the artifacts of the Mycenaean civilization, as its difference is sometimes inconspicuous even to archaeologists.




(Meaning that "mycenaean-likes"="protoaeolics(?)" of the north could be different to what samples we have now.. therefore you might not need J2a in Albania to prove actual protoGreek ancestry in Albanians )

[Bigsaul]

Southern Albanians are Epirote Greeks

[MagnusDark]

Yea, Tosks are prodominantly albanized Vlachs (Aromanians). Both Tosks and Aromanians carry tendency to trade, they have calmer mentality than Ghegs, they have Byzantine vibe unlike Ghegs, they have a lot of Meds and Alpinids...

Southern Albania was full of Vlachs in the past, and today there is only few of them.

Do you hear how silly you sound? Most Aromanians(not to be confused with Vlachs) share most of their YDNA with Albanians and Greeks. In reality they're just native Illyrians and Ancient Greeks that became latin speaking, with some rejoining the fold on either side of the border, becoming Albanian and Greek in the early middle ages.

Most of these tests are low res and large TMRCA between them and Slavs/Vlachs. Also majority of South Albanians in the project cluster with North Albanians on the Y.

You're the same guy who called R1b-BY611 Thracian, when it is dominant in Albanians and the West Balkans. You have a tendency to speak out of your bum. Unless every southern Albanian gets a full resolution genome test, your claims are MOOT.

The near entirety of Proto-Slavic and Germanic Lineages in Central/Southern Albania, and to some extent Northern Greece(not counting the later Bulgarian arrivals) were all assimilated in the early middle ages, and for over a millenia have spread as Albanians and Greeks.

With exception of some border regions in the North, most I2a1b for instance seems to share clades with Romanian/Vlach/Bulgarian I2. With far less PH908. In all probability, I2a1b/R1a Albanians and Greeks are mostly assimilated Proto-Slavs that went through stages of latinization(Vlachs) and Albanisation or both, sometime between the early middle ages and Bulgarian empire(1/2). Nothing more recent than that, and more than long enough for founder effects to emerge, diverging the lineage from its source population(hence "founder effect").

[Ayetooey]

Southern Albanians are Epirote Greeks

I think so; many of the southern ones plot in that direction. There's always massive differences between north/south on their pcas. Such differences would make sense for a larger nation, not the most isolated in Europe with one of the smallest populations.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/491704559228551192/581489327205253139/unknown.png

[MagnusDark]

No one said Tosks are all I2a/R1a, but they're heightened in these Y dna's which simply don't exist in Kosovars; moreover, the clades they have are not shared with north Albos who all share clan history and paternal lineage. I never claimed Tosks have I2-PH908; they mainly have dinaric north clades from Antes and later on Bulgur excursions. I never claimed North Greeks weren't slavo/vlach shifted; but this thread isn't about Greeks, but about Albos, so you're back tracking.

The distance between Tosks and North Ghegs on the k15 PCA is bigger than the distance between Serbia and Austria; one of the smallest, most isolated nations in Europe has one of the larger PCA distances between it's north/south. You could group together every south slavic country, from Slovenia to Bulgaria, and it'd be a more compact PCA than a Tosk/Gheg one. We all know that region was always Greek/Aromanian; there is 100s of thousands of Greeks who live in the south who aren't allowed to declare as their true ethnicity, with 18% of Albania not declaring in the 2011 census.

IBD sharing is important but it should only be used in combination with autosomal plotting; the Serb nation is significantly larger than the Albanian one, and in terms of "native" settlements, covers a much more significant distance, from North Croatia/South Slovenia, down to parts of North Macedonia and North Albania. The Serb cluster is significantly smaller on almost every PCA when compared to the Albanian ones. Even the Romanian cluster, with Romania being around the same size as the whole of former Yugoslavia, is smaller than the Albanian one; and Romanians are very diverse based on region. The PCA below is a kind example; I've seen much more extreme distances between you lot.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/562623517598679040/581486430497538064/unknown.png

Did you pay attention to anything I said?? autosomal means nothing compared to IBD. why are you taking forum wanabe scientists more seriously than actual scientifically published papers?

I am not going to even entertain the rest of that drive because its wrong. hundreds of thousands?

Theres always some agenda with you Serbs. Not even going to feed the troll. I am not talking about. Autosomal means nothing. I have seen siblings plot FAR from each other(not astronomically of course). Autosomal combination happens at random, and 2 genetically blood related siblings can plot some reasonable distances between each other.

Again 26 percent non-native YDNA impact in South Albanians(not even all Albanians) is infantismal compared to the YDNA impact of Albanian and Greek YDNA(from natives) on Southern Slavs. Yes this isn't a discussion about all that but its obvious in your demeanor that you and everyone is trying desparately to prove South Albanians are mostly not Albanians.



South Albanians:

YDNA so far: 80 percent Native(J2b/E-V13/R1b-L23/J2a/J1/G/T & 20 percent foreign(R1a/I2a/I1)

IBD sharing>autosomal

So im not a mathematician, but I would say they're Albanians. You know, because they match all Northern Albanian clades for the near entirety of the native Y. Thats not included the early middle ages founder effects found in my R1a, and others. All our I2 is pretty low res with no bigy.

What you don't realize is even the foreign YDNA in Albanians is nothing of recent impact, and they(like myself) are suspected to form Albanian specific founder effects between 1000-1500ypb.

It only takes 2 generations(not 1000-1500 years) for autsomal to change. Also autosomal recombination is RANDOM. Do you know what random means? meaning one genetic component can over take the other.

Albanians still form a tightly knit Homogeneous groups from north to south on actual scientific published papers. A forum users interesting theoretical maps and algorithms does not take the place of science.

[Dorian]

Albanians have very high IBD sharing with each other from north to south tracing to a common proto-population between 100BC & 500AD.

Interesting "Apollonia was founded in 588 BCE by Greek colonists from Corfu and Corinth,[2] on a site where native Illyrian tribes[3] lived, and was perhaps the most important of the several classical towns known as Apollonia. Apollonia flourished in the Roman period and was home to a renowned school of philosophy, but began to decline in the 3rd century AD when its harbor started silting up as a result of an earthquake. It was abandoned by the end of Late Antiquity."

https://scontent.fath7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1607093_579982798755736_922089411_n.jpg?_nc_cat=10 6&_nc_ht=scontent.fath7-1.fna&oh=05546edc4ffa859172b9d47a20148f2d&oe=5D5F26BD
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Onw9UsEyMZU/WzztMYiTDiI/AAAAAAAAAWI/1os0XKfpqewdNTuKqrnaP3H_6QIQLMSsgCLcBGAs/s1600/image012.gif
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_tU7n1aq_x0/WzzuCcsm37I/AAAAAAAAAWY/N9y6D1ipLngqhLPyt7GOBlBlLqV1Af4OQCLcBGAs/s1600/Haplogroup-E1b1b-Eupedia-2013.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29_en.svg/1024px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29_en.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Pelasgians.jpg

[MagnusDark]

Ghegs got Slavic admixture also, but it's more maternal compared to Tosks. IMHO, main difference in clustering among Albos isn't really some kind of foreign influence but the fact that Northern Illyrians were Celtic admixed compared to Hellenic admixed southern Illyrians.

We don't know what southern illyrians were like. No ancient remains, so don't jump ahead now. Also, autosomal plotting is not to be taken too literally. Otherwise using this reasoning, Thracians were more Greek than Greek, or perhaps they were fish people since some plot in the water. Thracians never went that far though. People are confusing autosomal recombination that happens at random, and neolithic and steppe admixture into confined categories.

Dealing with the facts, every scientific paper has stated Albanians are more homogeneous than any of their neighbors, and have high IBD sharing from north to south, linking them to a proto-population between 100BC & 500AD. I will take actual science over forum scientists any day.

Most of what everyone argues and believes on these forums is not even supported by actual science. Let that sink in lol

[MagnusDark]

Interesting "Apollonia was founded in 588 BCE by Greek colonists from Corfu and Corinth,[2] on a site where native Illyrian tribes[3] lived, and was perhaps the most important of the several classical towns known as Apollonia. Apollonia flourished in the Roman period and was home to a renowned school of philosophy, but began to decline in the 3rd century AD when its harbor started silting up as a result of an earthquake. It was abandoned by the end of Late Antiquity."

https://scontent.fath7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1607093_579982798755736_922089411_n.jpg?_nc_cat=10 6&_nc_ht=scontent.fath7-1.fna&oh=05546edc4ffa859172b9d47a20148f2d&oe=5D5F26BD
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Onw9UsEyMZU/WzztMYiTDiI/AAAAAAAAAWI/1os0XKfpqewdNTuKqrnaP3H_6QIQLMSsgCLcBGAs/s1600/image012.gif
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_tU7n1aq_x0/WzzuCcsm37I/AAAAAAAAAWY/N9y6D1ipLngqhLPyt7GOBlBlLqV1Af4OQCLcBGAs/s1600/Haplogroup-E1b1b-Eupedia-2013.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29_en.svg/1024px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29_en.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Pelasgians.jpg

I thought the earthquake was in 1200? or did it happen twice?

[MagnusDark]

I thought that J2a came from Kura-Araxes cutlure and the Proto-Greeks came from the Yamnaya. In the Late Yamnaya, Proto-Greeks settled the Greek Mainland and Anatolia... but I think the J2a distribution came from the Minoan's & Mycenaean's and the Hg traveled North, not Proto-Greeks from Yamanya and the Hg traveling to the South. Does this make sense or am I making a mistake in this line of thought?

Well yea. I just abbreviated it/ I mean the clade under J2a that is associated with Proto-Greeks. So you think Proto-Greeks weren't J2a? I thought Mycenaeans were Proto-Greek and had J2a?

Unless you think Proto-Greek/Proto-Albanian/Proto-Armenian come from Maykop/Yamnaya R1b-L23 as some have proposed? I think this is possible since R1b-L23 forms a strong core with all these groups. Considering they split from a common Indo European branch, and R1a/R1b are the prime Proto-Indo-European lines, then R1b could be the link.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

We don't know what southern illyrians were like. No ancient remains, so don't jump ahead now.

Yes, but it would be suprising to learn southern Illyrians were Iberian and North Italian like those in Dalmatia. Especially considering how different those samples are from Myceneans and Iron Age Bulgarians.
Soouthern Albania got some extra Slavic input and they still cluster far to the southeast compared to bronze Age Dalmatians. So I expect natives of southern Albania were closer to Greeks.

Bronze Age Slavonia/southern Panonnia was identical to Dalmatian samples btw. We need ancient samples from southern Balkans to be sure about their genetic profile though.

[MagnusDark]

It is pretty dumb to say Tosks are albanised Vlachs when Vlachs are language shifters, nothing original about them.
More correct would be to say Vlachs are romanised Albanians, Greeks and other native Balkan tribes than the opposite.

Dumb is his native language, so..... lol

[AslanTR]

Most of E-v13 was spread during Vlaho-Bulgarian Empire, most of E-v13 clades in Balkans are Vlach bottleneck.
Vlachs survived hellenization of Roman Empire because they lived at the frontier of it, starting with Bulgarian Mountains-Sava-Danube up to Carphatian Basin(this route followed a normal Summer-Winter transhumance path) and this coincides exactly with the medieval writings we have about them.

https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/common-slavs-from-the-lower-danube-expanding-with-haplogroup-e1b-v13/


The finding of haplogroup E1b1b-M215 in two independent early West Slavic individuals further supports that the current distribution of R1a1a1b1a-Z282 lineages in Slavic populations is the product of recent bottlenecks. The lack of a precise subclade within the E1b1b-M215 tree precludes a proper interpretation of a potential origin, but they are probably under European E1b1b1a1b1-L618 subclade E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 (formed ca. 6100 BC, TMRCA ca. 2800 BC), possibly under the mutation CTS1273 (formed ca. 2600 BC, TMRCA ca. 2000 BC), in common with other ancient populations around the Carpathians (see below §viii.11. Thracians and Albanians). This gross geographic origin would support the studies of the Common Slavic homeland based on toponymy (Figure 66), which place it roughly between the Upper Oder and the Upper Dniester, north of the Carpathians (Udolph 1997, 2016)."

"
(8 APR 2019): Another interesting data is the haplogroup distribution among Modern Slavs and neighbouring peoples (see Wikipedia). For example, the bottleneck seen in Modern Albanians, under Z5017 subclade, also points to an origin of the expansion of E1b-V13 subclades among multiethnic groups around the Lower Danube coinciding with the Roman Iron Age, given the estimates for the arrival of Proto-Albanian close to the Latin and Greek linguistic frontier."

"Remarkable is also its distribution among Rusyns, East Slavs from the Carpathians not associated with the Kievan Rus’, isolated thus quite soon from East Slavic expansions to the east. They were reported to show ca. 35% hg. E1b-V13 globally in FTDNA, with a frequency similar to or higher than R1a, in common with South Slavic peoples, reflecting thus a situation similar to the source of East Slavs before further R1a-based bottlenecks (and/or acculturation events) to the east:*"



The “western” cluster of Early Slavs from Brandýsek, Bohemia (ca. AD 600-900).
Two likely Slavic individuals from Usedom, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (AD 1200) show hg. R1a-M458 and E1b-M215 (Freder 2010).
An early West Slav individual from Hrádek nad Nisou in Northern Bohemia (ca. AD 1330) also shows E1b-M215 (Vanek et al. 2015).
One sample from Székkutas-Kápolnadülő (SzK/239) among middle or late Avars (ca. AD 650-710), a supposed Slavonic-speaking polity, of hg. E1b-V13.
Two samples from Karosc (K1/13, and K2/6) among Hungarian conquerors (ca. AD 895-950), likely both of hg. E1b-V13, probably connected to the alliance with Moravian elites.
Possibly a West Slavic sample from Poland in the High Middle Ages

Their close contact with other Palaeo-Balkan groups, probably through mixture with local peoples of the Balkan and Adriatic regions after their migration from the Carpathians, possibly as early as the 7th century BC (Witczak 2016), is to be inferred from the presence (ca. 15–17%) of J2b2a1-L283 lineages (formed ca. 7700 BC, TMRCA ca. 3400 BC), proper of Balkan populations; but also possibly from hg. R1b1a1b2-PF7562 (ca. 5%)[56], an early offshoot of R1b1a1b2-M269, associated directly or indirectly to the Yamna expansion to the west (see §vi.1. Disintegrating Indo-Europeans).

[Epirus DNA]

Well yea. I just abbreviated it/ I mean the clade under J2a that is associated with Proto-Greeks. So you think Proto-Greeks weren't J2a? I thought Mycenaeans were Proto-Greek and had J2a?

Unless you think Proto-Greek/Proto-Albanian/Proto-Armenian come from Maykop/Yamnaya R1b-L23 as some have proposed? I think this is possible since R1b-L23 forms a strong core with all these groups. Considering they split from a common Indo European branch, and R1a/R1b are the prime Proto-Indo-European lines, then R1b could be the link.

I am an amateur and an enthusiast. My parents were both born in the region of Pogoni in Epirus so this is really interesting to me. I can trace my family back 5 Generations in Greece.

Basically, I have two thoughts at this moment.

#1) Proto-Greeks were not J2a. I think that Proto-Greeks from Yamnaya mixed in Anatolia and Mainland Greece with J2a Kura-Araxes Minoans & Armenians. This would support Hittites and Greeks being "cousins" and loosley ties into the Trojan War

#2) J2a went up through Maykop and Yamnaya as well... then came down to meet their "cousins" in Anatolia and Mainland Greece.

I think both seem possible... and #2 more likely than #1.

[Skerdilaid]

It's pretty obvious Tosks have nothing to do with real Albanians in the north; no tribal/clan culture, completely different autosomally, different Y dna clades; the distance between north Ghegs and Tosks on the ta PCA chart was the same distance as the Serb dot with Austrians.

Tosks are a combination of Aromanians + drunk mountain Greeks with a sprinkle of Slav manhood (heightened R1a/I2a in Tosks).
It’s pretty obvious that you’re a moron

[Epirus DNA]

Yes, but it would be suprising to learn southern Illyrians were Iberian and North Italian like those in Dalmatia. Especially considering how different those samples are from Myceneans and Iron Age Bulgarians.
Soouthern Albania got some extra Slavic input and they still cluster far to the southeast compared to bronze Age Dalmatians. So I expect natives of southern Albania were closer to Greeks.

Bronze Age Slavonia/southern Panonnia was identical to Dalmatian samples btw. We need ancient samples from southern Balkans to be sure about their genetic profile though.


Interesting addition to this thought:

Iagypians were definitely Proto-Illryian and Proto-Italian. Iagypians are in the historical record for fighting in the Punic Wars against Cartharge. In researching their admixture and reading several studies, it appears that Iapygians were of Hellenic influence or origin.

[MagnusDark]

Most of E-v13 was spread during Vlaho-Bulgarian Empire, most of E-v13 clades in Balkans are Vlach bottleneck.
Vlachs survived hellenization of Roman Empire because they lived at the frontier of it, starting with Bulgarian Mountains-Sava-Danube up to Carphatian Basin(this route followed a normal Summer-Winter transhumance path) and this coincides exactly with the medieval writings we have about them.

https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/common-slavs-from-the-lower-danube-expanding-with-haplogroup-e1b-v13/

What are you retarded????

That is a blog post, not a scientific paper. Nice try in thinking leaving out the source would confuse those who are a little more diligent. It comes from a blog post by Carlos-Quiles at Indo-European blog. Guy is a hack, and you display your lack of intelligence using his drivel.

Vlachs are not a real ethnic group. They exchanged native tongue for latin. They were previously Illyrian/Thracian/Greek before latinization. They share majority of their YDNA with Albanians and Greeks, and the splits go back to the Iron-Age.

Nice try mongoloid.

On top of that you're calling it West Slavic? what a moron.

[AslanTR]

What are you retarded????

That is a blog post, not a scientific paper. Nice try in thinking leaving out the source would confuse those who are a little more diligent. It comes from a blog post by Carlos-Quiles at Indo-European blog. Guy is a hack, and you display your lack of intelligence using his drivel.

Vlachs are not a real ethnic group. They exchanged native tongue for latin. They were previously Illyrian/Thracian/Greek before latinization. They share majority of their YDNA with Albanians and Greeks, and the splits go back to the Iron-Age.

Nice try mongoloid.

On top of that you're calling it West Slavic? what a moron.

The Samples were invented by the blog poster too? Stupid fucking cunt.


The “western” cluster of Early Slavs from Brandýsek, Bohemia (ca. AD 600-900).
Two likely Slavic individuals from Usedom, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (AD 1200) show hg. R1a-M458 and E1b-M215 (Freder 2010).
An early West Slav individual from Hrádek nad Nisou in Northern Bohemia (ca. AD 1330) also shows E1b-M215 (Vanek et al. 2015).
One sample from Székkutas-Kápolnadülő (SzK/239) among middle or late Avars (ca. AD 650-710), a supposed Slavonic-speaking polity, of hg. E1b-V13.
Two samples from Karosc (K1/13, and K2/6) among Hungarian conquerors (ca. AD 895-950), likely both of hg. E1b-V13, probably connected to the alliance with Moravian elites.
Possibly a West Slavic sample from Poland in the High Middle Ages

[AslanTR]

E-V13 spread with vlacho-bulgarian empire from the baltic area to balkans, nothing illyrian.

Everything from below belongs to scientifical studies

" Favouring Curta’s Danubian origin (or even an origin near Bohemia) at the moment are thus:

The “western” cluster of Early Slavs from Brandýsek, Bohemia (ca. AD 600-900).
Two likely Slavic individuals from Usedom, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (AD 1200) show hg. R1a-M458 and E1b-M215 (Freder 2010).
An early West Slav individual from Hrádek nad Nisou in Northern Bohemia (ca. AD 1330) also shows E1b-M215 (Vanek et al. 2015).
One sample from Székkutas-Kápolnadülő (SzK/239) among middle or late Avars (ca. AD 650-710), a supposed Slavonic-speaking polity, of hg. E1b-V13.
Two samples from Karosc (K1/13, and K2/6) among Hungarian conquerors (ca. AD 895-950), likely both of hg. E1b-V13, probably connected to the alliance with Moravian elites.
Possibly a West Slavic sample from Poland in the High Middle Ages (see below"

The finding of haplogroup E1b1b-M215 in two independent early West Slavic individuals further supports that the current distribution of R1a1a1b1a-Z282 lineages in Slavic populations is the product of recent bottlenecks. The lack of a precise subclade within the E1b1b-M215 tree precludes a proper interpretation of a potential origin, but they are probably under European E1b1b1a1b1-L618 subclade E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 (formed ca. 6100 BC, TMRCA ca. 2800 BC), possibly under the mutation CTS1273 (formed ca. 2600 BC, TMRCA ca. 2000 BC), in common with other ancient populations around the Carpathians (see below §viii.11. Thracians and Albanians). This gross geographic origin would support the studies of the Common Slavic homeland based on toponymy (Figure 66), which place it roughly between the Upper Oder and the Upper Dniester, north of the Carpathians (Udolph 1997, 2016).

The lack of close linguistic relationship of Albanian with Illyrian, the lack of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-faring terminology in the reconstructed language (borrowing corresponding words from Romance or Greek) make it likely that Albanians were unrelated to the ancient Illyrians. It has been proposed that they came from further north, with the settling of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and farther north, in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the Beskidy/Bieszczady (possibly a toponym of Albanian origin), with the migration to Illyria via the eastern slopes of the Balkans taking place before (but not much earlier than) their contact with Romance speakers and the end of the Proto-Albanian period (Orel 1998).

[MagnusDark]

Yes, but it would be suprising to learn southern Illyrians were Iberian and North Italian like those in Dalmatia. Especially considering how different those samples are from Myceneans and Iron Age Bulgarians.
Soouthern Albania got some extra Slavic input and they still cluster far to the southeast compared to bronze Age Dalmatians. So I expect natives of southern Albania were closer to Greeks.

Bronze Age Slavonia/southern Panonnia was identical to Dalmatian samples btw. We need ancient samples from southern Balkans to be sure about their genetic profile though.

The problem with drawing all these conclusions, is that it hinges on modern data, with close to no ancient data. On top of this, most people are completely ignorant to the fact that autosomal recombination is random. It doesn't work the way you think. Mixing 50.50 components does not always display the same distribution in 2 siblings let alone across populations.

This is why IBD sharing is more important. On top of this, YDNA is essential. The Tosk sample is still a small representation. Yet, even then, they largely belong in majority to native paleo-balkan lineages. The Slavic impact was in the early middle ages. It also appears due to suspected founder effects in even invader lines are still wholely matching Albanians with Slavic matches between 1500-2000 years ago.

Most all the Proto-Slavic tribes that hit Albania were all absorbed by Byzantines/Albanians/Greeks. Many of them were farmers, and even lent aid to Byzantines against other Slavic tribes. They fully integrated over a millennia ago.

So how does some steppe/southern admixture today, define the past? Autosomal doesn't last that long. It changes generationally.

The one thing I agree with Dick on, is that its fruitless to label these components as Slavic or Greek, when simply its steppe and neolithic. YDNA is the only way to really display a cultures impact, as for the most part(outside of founder effects) they are unchanging. Using actual scientific conclusions, Even Southern Albanians are not really that "non-Albanian". Because, Albanian represents a culture that evolved from the symbiosis of Proto-Albanian(Illyrians) and the inclusion of elements from Roman, Slavic, Greek, and Germanic elements in the early middle ages.

Those R1a/I2/I1 Albanians are still too low res on tests to tell, yet for my clade at least, it is an Albanian founder effect between 1100-1200ypb. No one but Northern Albanians in my branch, with Slavic/German matches being 2100ypb or further at present.

[AslanTR]

I am an amateur and an enthusiast

I can see

I don't know about "proto"-greeks(the fucks that) but ancient greeks were dominated by J2a,The "Genetic origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans and their continuity into modern Greeks" showed it.
In the recent Iberian paper, all the samples from Hellenic age Iberia turned out J, almost for sure J2a.The snp's were to few but i recall one was predicted J2a.
From "The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean" theres a new J2a sample from Sicily, clustering with the mycenean we've seen in the above paper, a pre-Magna Grecia greek colonist.
Along J2a there would've been pelasgians G2a and possibly I2a2 and thats it with ancient greeks.

[MagnusDark]

The Samples were invented by the blog poster too? Stupid fucking cunt.

No, he invented the narrative surrounding those sample finds. Learn to distinguish the 2, CUNT.

[AslanTR]

No, he invented the narrative surrounding those sample finds. Learn to distinguish the 2, CUNT.

The narrative is just logical you dumb shit, put 2 and 2 together its not rocket science.E-v13 isn't slav, no one said that, but its home was a lot more northern than today.It got absorbed by early slavs and spread by them.
The E-v13 in albanians is mostly founder effeect from early Middle Ages.

[MagnusDark]

E-V13 spread with vlacho-bulgarian empire from the baltic area to balkans, nothing illyrian.

Everything from below belongs to scientifical studies

" Favouring Curta’s Danubian origin (or even an origin near Bohemia) at the moment are thus:

The “western” cluster of Early Slavs from Brandýsek, Bohemia (ca. AD 600-900).
Two likely Slavic individuals from Usedom, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (AD 1200) show hg. R1a-M458 and E1b-M215 (Freder 2010).
An early West Slav individual from Hrádek nad Nisou in Northern Bohemia (ca. AD 1330) also shows E1b-M215 (Vanek et al. 2015).
One sample from Székkutas-Kápolnadülő (SzK/239) among middle or late Avars (ca. AD 650-710), a supposed Slavonic-speaking polity, of hg. E1b-V13.
Two samples from Karosc (K1/13, and K2/6) among Hungarian conquerors (ca. AD 895-950), likely both of hg. E1b-V13, probably connected to the alliance with Moravian elites.
Possibly a West Slavic sample from Poland in the High Middle Ages (see below"

The finding of haplogroup E1b1b-M215 in two independent early West Slavic individuals further supports that the current distribution of R1a1a1b1a-Z282 lineages in Slavic populations is the product of recent bottlenecks. The lack of a precise subclade within the E1b1b-M215 tree precludes a proper interpretation of a potential origin, but they are probably under European E1b1b1a1b1-L618 subclade E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 (formed ca. 6100 BC, TMRCA ca. 2800 BC), possibly under the mutation CTS1273 (formed ca. 2600 BC, TMRCA ca. 2000 BC), in common with other ancient populations around the Carpathians (see below §viii.11. Thracians and Albanians). This gross geographic origin would support the studies of the Common Slavic homeland based on toponymy (Figure 66), which place it roughly between the Upper Oder and the Upper Dniester, north of the Carpathians (Udolph 1997, 2016).

The lack of close linguistic relationship of Albanian with Illyrian, the lack of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-faring terminology in the reconstructed language (borrowing corresponding words from Romance or Greek) make it likely that Albanians were unrelated to the ancient Illyrians. It has been proposed that they came from further north, with the settling of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and farther north, in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the Beskidy/Bieszczady (possibly a toponym of Albanian origin), with the migration to Illyria via the eastern slopes of the Balkans taking place before (but not much earlier than) their contact with Romance speakers and the end of the Proto-Albanian period (Orel 1998).

The parent to E-V13 was found in West Balkans. E-V13 was also found in a Thracian sample. Now shut the fuck up and run along sock.

[AslanTR]

The parent to E-V13 was found in West Balkans..

So what?Who said modern E-V13 descend from that guy and more importantly in hundreds of years people move a lot, let alone from Bronze age to Middle Ages, the distribution of such a small ydna would've changed.By the same logic I2a-Din is local since parent clade I2a was found in Balkans, KILL YOURSELF

The study aint invented, Florin Curta is the biggest expert on slavic history.

https://www.academia.edu/38727041/Eastern_Europe_in_the_Middle_Ages_500-1300_


Now shut the fuck up and run along sock.

You're just being an aggresive slav

[MagnusDark]

The narrative is just logical you dumb shit, put 2 and 2 together its not rocket science.E-v13 isn't slav, no one said that, but its home was a lot more northern than today.It got absorbed by early slavs and spread by them.
The E-v13 in albanians is mostly founder effeect from early Middle Ages.

Wrong. Between 100BC and 500AD.. Greeks also have their own clades of V13 that split since the bronze age. Several other Albanians are being discovered in pure Gheg populations with even older clades all throughout the north Albania region.

Mirdita has some of the oldest clades in each haplogroup that dominates among them.

Besides, J2b-L283 and R1b-L23 are the 2 CLEAREST indications of Albanian haplotypes. BY611 under R1b is almost a surfire indication of Albanian descent. J2b-L283 was found in a Proto-Illyrian and R1b-L23 was also found in West Balkans Bronze Age.

Now go back to Turkey. I don't think Germany wants you.

[MagnusDark]

So what?Who said modern E-V13 descend from that guy and more importantly in hundreds of years people move a lot, let alone from Bronze age to Middle Ages, the distribution of such a small ydna would've changed.By the same logic I2a-Din is local since parent clade I2a was found in Balkans, KILL YOURSELF

The study aint invented, Florin Curta is the biggest expert on slavic history.

https://www.academia.edu/38727041/Eastern_Europe_in_the_Middle_Ages_500-1300_



You're just being an aggresive slav

Not a Slav. But who knows what a Turk is these days? A mixed bag of shit from every corner of Europe to Asia to the East.

Comparing the Paleolithic/Mesolithic finds of I2a with later Bronze/Iron Age finds of native paleo-balkan lineages that survived through the middle ages to today is absolutely laughable.

Florin Curta is smart but hes not taken seriously in the least.

[AslanTR]

Wrong. Between 100BC and 500AD.. Greeks also have their own clades of V13 that split since the bronze age. Several other Albanians are being discovered in pure Gheg populations with even older clades all throughout the north Albania region.

Mirdita has some of the oldest clades in each haplogroup that dominates among them.

Besides, J2b-L283 and R1b-L23 are the 2 CLEAREST indications of Albanian haplotypes. BY611 under R1b is almost a surfire indication of Albanian descent. J2b-L283 was found in a Proto-Illyrian and R1b-L23 was also found in West Balkans Bronze Age.

Now go back to Turkey. I don't think Germany wants you.

I dont care about small cherrypcked subclads of E-V13, i am talking about largest clades of E,R1B and J2B found in albanians, idiot, every nation has its outliers.
And Bronze age was fucking 5 milenials ago, idiot.
Read actual samples found here and that COINCIDE with Florin Curta and other earlier hyphotese of slavics and thracians spread.
E-v13 is thracian but it was spread in Balkans mostly during early Middle Ages by slavs and vlachs.


Their close contact with other Palaeo-Balkan groups, probably through mixture with local peoples of the Balkan and Adriatic regions after their migration from the Carpathians, possibly as early as the 7th century BC (Witczak 2016), is to be inferred from the presence (ca. 15–17%) of J2b2a1-L283 lineages (formed ca. 7700 BC, TMRCA ca. 3400 BC), proper of Balkan populations; but also possibly from hg. R1b1a1b2-PF7562 (ca. 5%)[56], an early offshoot of R1b1a1b2-M269, associated directly or indirectly to the Yamna expansion to the west (see §vi.1. Disintegrating Indo-Europeans).


The different haplogroups in these clusters, including two R1b1a1b1b-Z2103 lineages, one of them R1b1a1b1b3-Z2106, one I2a1b1a2a1b-Y7219 (formed ca. 4100 BC, TMRCA ca. 2000 BC) and one E1b1b1a1b1-L618 (formed ca. 10000 BC, TMRCA ca. 6100 BC), also in contrast to eastern Scythians and other previous or later steppe populations, suggest the likely acculturation of the region, and thus the potential spread of Thracian peoples at least partly with R1b1a1b1b-Z2103 lineages


R1b1a1b1b-Z2103 lineages are found widespread along the Lower Danube, from the east in late Yamna and Catacomb samples (ca. 2500–1950 BC), to the west in Vučedol from Beli Manastir (ca. 2775 BC), in early Nagýrev (ca. 2500–2200 BC), and in some East Bell Beaker groups (ca. 2500–2000 BC).

Favouring Curta’s Danubian origin (or even an origin near Bohemia) at the moment are thus:


The “western” cluster of Early Slavs from Brandýsek, Bohemia (ca. AD 600-900).
Two likely Slavic individuals from Usedom, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (AD 1200) show hg. R1a-M458 and E1b-M215 (Freder 2010).
An early West Slav individual from Hrádek nad Nisou in Northern Bohemia (ca. AD 1330) also shows E1b-M215 (Vanek et al. 2015).
One sample from Székkutas-Kápolnadülő (SzK/239) among middle or late Avars (ca. AD 650-710), a supposed Slavonic-speaking polity, of hg. E1b-V13.
Two samples from Karosc (K1/13, and K2/6) among Hungarian conquerors (ca. AD 895-950), likely both of hg. E1b-V13, probably connected to the alliance with Moravian elites.
Possibly a West Slavic sample from Poland in the High Middle Ages

[MagnusDark]

I dont care about small cherrypcked subclads of E-V13, i am talking about largest clades of E,R1B and J2B found in albanians, idiot, every nation has its outliers.
And Bronze age was fucking 5 milenials ago, idiot.
Read actual samples found here and that COINCIDE with Florin Curta and other earlier hyphotese of slavics and thracians spread.







Favouring Curta’s Danubian origin (or even an origin near Bohemia) at the moment are thus:

The only person who takes the guesswork of Carlos, and the unverifiable educated guesses of Curta serious are idiots. Come up with some new insults Gomar.

[Epirus DNA]

I can see

I don't know about "proto"-greeks(the fucks that) but ancient greeks were dominated by J2a,The "Genetic origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans and their continuity into modern Greeks" showed it.
In the recent Iberian paper, all the samples from Hellenic age Iberia turned out J, almost for sure J2a.The snp's were to few but i recall one was predicted J2a.
From "The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean" theres a new J2a sample from Sicily, clustering with the mycenean we've seen in the above paper, a pre-Magna Grecia greek colonist.
Along J2a there would've been pelasgians G2a and possibly I2a2 and thats it with ancient greeks.

Thanks for this post!

Maybe Proto-Greek refers to the Indo-European Proto-Greek Language? From what I understand, "science" hypothesizes that the Proto-Greek language came down from Yamnaya and into the Mainland. Furthermore, that the language of Proto-Greek was developed in Epirus. The Dorian Dialect also came from the North.

The Ancient Greeks were dominated by the Hg J2a (definetely Minoan and Mycenaean) but what about their language? I am trying to now figure in Linear A and Linear B to this conversation.

Do you have any information on the new J2a sample from Sicily??!

Do you think that Hg J2a was also the "Sea People" that dominated the Mediterranean as the pre-Magna Gracia Greek colonists?

[AslanTR]

The only person who takes the guesswork of Carlos, and the unverifiable educated guesses of Curta serious are idiots. Come up with some new insults Gomar.

The samples talk for themselves only ignorant fools with an agenda choose to ignore them cause you hate slavs.
E-v13 was situated North of Danube in pre-medieval era and it was spread by the vlachs who ran away in Balkans and slavs who assimilated the ones that didn't run away.

[AslanTR]

Some filthy fat shiptar from America calls Florin Curta and other sources in the quote as unverifiable and random guesses?

Florin Curta is not a geneticist, he is a history teacher at a university in USA specialized in slavic studies, he wrote this 2019 study based on archaelogical and historical evidences that place original slavic homeland north of carpatians and talks about migrations in the balkans.

What that indo-european blog does is add his work, other historians and genetic studies and samples in a single place, making statements based on scientific studies.On top of this, its a very reputed blog , even when those dalmatian j2b2 samples were found ,it was this blog that was first posted on TA with the study or whenever a new study comes out.
His work and others in this domain, together with genetic studies and samples are agree on a single thing: E-V13 came in the balkans from north carpathians and spread throughout whole of balkans with the thraco-vlachs.

[Epirus DNA]

I can see

Who the fuck are you? Some amazing brilliant nerd fucking scientist or some internet asswipe that curses at everyone?

[AslanTR]

Who the fuck are you? Some amazing brilliant nerd fucking scientist or some internet asswipe that curses at everyone?

I am calling him for what he is, and just for your information he started with insults when he realized he has no arguments, take a look for yourself.
LOL at how he thumbed you up now but has no arguments to post in the thread so he went silent.

[MagnusDark]

I am calling him for what he is, and just for your information he started with insults when he realized he has no arguments, take a look for yourself.
LOL at how he thumbed you up now but has no arguments to post in the thread so he went silent.

You don't think I know who you are or the filth that spewed from your mouth before your new sock account? Majority of your posts prior to you being banned were all geared toward attacking Albanian users. You have nothing but an agenda mr. "Turk". Or should we call you IncelSlayer?

[Ujku]

thread vari karin

[Voskos]

The debate will be endless until some ancient Y-DNA from southern albania gets tested. If i had to take a guess as an amateur I'd expect some R1b-L23, some E-V13, I2a2 M223 and J2a Z515.

[Epirus DNA]

The debate will be endless until some ancient Y-DNA from southern albania gets tested. If i had to take a guess as an amateur I'd expect some R1b-L23, some E-V13, I2a2 M223 and J2a Z515.

Well J2b isn't a sacred Albanian Haplogroup either...

Minoan_Odigitria I9127
mtDNA J2b1a1

[Pubiczar]

Well J2b isn't a sacred Albanian Haplogroup either...

Minoan_Odigitria I9127
mtDNA J2b1a1

That's mtDNA, NOT ydna!

You seem are confusing those two.

[Epirus DNA]

That's mtDNA, NOT ydna!

You seem are confusing those two.

I appreciate you searching for clarity-- Thank you.

The J2 samples we have from Minoan and Mycenaean are:

Minoan_Odigitria I9127
mtDNA: J2b1a1

Minoan_Lasithi I0073
Y-DNA: J2a1
mtDNA: H

Minoan_Lasithi I0070
Y-DNA: J2a1d
mtDNA: H13a1

Mycenaean I9041
Y-DNA: J2a1
mtDNA: X2

It is a fact that some of the Minoans vaginas were J2b.

[MagnusDark]

Well J2b isn't a sacred Albanian Haplogroup either...

Minoan_Odigitria I9127
mtDNA J2b1a1

That is Mtdna. However, even if we're referring to YDNA J2b1, Albanian J2b is mostly J2b2, so its completely separate. J2b1 is associated possibly with Eastern Cultures.

[Epirus DNA]

That is Mtdna. However, even if we're referring to YDNA J2b1, Albanian J2b is mostly J2b2, so its completely separate. J2b1 is associated possibly with Eastern Cultures.

J2b2-L283: from Neolithic Iran to the Indo-Europeans
SOURCE: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

"Both J2b1 and J2b2-L283 are also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Graecia). However they are almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. The only variety of R1b that is found at reasonably high frequencies in Southeast Europe, and particularly in Greece, is R1b-Z2103, the branch found in the eastern Yamna culture, including the Volga-Ural region."

[RenaRyuguu]

HAPLOGROUP J2A1D Alexandria

[vbnetkhio]

It is pretty dumb to say Tosks are albanised Vlachs when Vlachs are language shifters, nothing original about them.
More correct would be to say Vlachs are romanised Albanians, Greeks and other native Balkan tribes than the opposite.

but those Vlachs are immigrants from Dacia.. not romanised locals :scratch:

[Varda]

Irini Qirjako is ethnic Greek from Finiq in southern Albania, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5hKjghyNdI