Are Persians genetically closer to Europeans than to Near Easterners?

[Antimatter]

Meanwhile, many claims coming from Iranians of how they are closer to Europeans. Many seem to describe their "blond hair and blue eyes" in an attempt to make themselves closer to the European masses who share similar features for the most part. Meanwhile they also mention "genetic relationship" between Iranians and Western Europeans is bigger than that of the Middle Easterners, a relationship I still have seen no proof of.

The Iranian tribes (which the Persians and Medes belong to) migrated from the steppes to the Iranian plateau c. 1000 BC and they mixed with the dominant natives to produce modern-day Iranians. These tribes introduced some Y-chromosome lineages such as R-Z93, R-L23 and some Q-L275. These lineages combined make a mere ~28% of the Iranian population. Meanwhile G & J alone (Mesolithic Iranian lineages) make 45% regardless of other Near Eastern Y-DNA haplogroups such as E-M35, L-M349 and T-L206.

Autosomally Iranian DNA derives mostly of Neolithic Iranians, forming around 80% of their autosomal makeup. Meanwhile steppe contribution varies from 10-30% depending on the region and increasing as one goes eastward and northward.

Any thoughts?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Much closer to near easterners.

[leonj]

no

[Blondie]

Persians are iranic speaker middle easternes:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/06/jewfig2d.png

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-450ac31cbd836ea1b31eec5218b2a358

[Kamal900]

Persians are iranic speaker middle easternes:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/06/jewfig2d.png

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-450ac31cbd836ea1b31eec5218b2a358

Basically this.

[Voskos]

In between.

[Antimatter]

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on Persians/Iranians at all, I absolutely love and appreciate Persian culture and what it contributed to our modern civilization, but these nationalistic claims just catch me off-guard and confused for the reason. Same thing for the Hittites, who were basically Indo-Europeanzied Hurrians/Anatolians.

[Sikeliot]

They are closest to non-Semitic Near Easterners (Armenians, Afghans, and Kurds) as well as to some Mesopotamian peoples like Assyrians.

[Antimatter]

They are closest to non-Semitic Near Easterners (Armenians, Afghans, and Kurds) as well as to some Mesopotamian peoples like Assyrians.

Afghans aren't exactly Near Easterners though, obviously they are closest to them..

I'd like to know your take/expectations on Hittite DNA..

[Sikeliot]

Afghans aren't exactly Near Easterners though, obviously they are closest to them..

I'd like to know your take/expectations on Hittite DNA..

Hittite DNA should be closest to Armenians of the same period if we have any samples.

[Arsen_]

...Same thing for the Hittites, who were basically Indo-Europeanzied Hurrians/Anatolians.

Hittites are the oldest Indo-European people in the world with the earliest attested Indo-European language. By whom they were Indo-Europeanzied??? By Martians or maybe by Venusians???

[Antimatter]

Hittites are the oldest Indo-European people in the world with the earliest attested Indo-European language. By whom they were Indo-Europeanzied??? By Martians or maybe by Venusians???

Hittite population was mostly of native stock. The ruling dynasty was however originally of the intrusive Indo-European Steppe comers.

[Arsen_]

Hittite population was mostly of native stock. The ruling dynasty was however originally of the intrusive Indo-European Steppe comers.

Stop that nonsense! Steppe "theory" is just a hypothesis and to me it is utter bullshit. Never ever in history half-human-half-animals from steppe produced anything meaningful let alone civilazition, language, writing, art and so on.

[Antimatter]

Stop that nonsense! Steppe "theory" is just a hypothesis and to me it is utter bullshit. Never ever in history half-human-half-animals from steppe produced anything meaningful let alone civilazition, language, writing, art and so on.

We have lots of evidences. Proto-Indo-European may have originated in Anatolia but IE languages certainly dispersed from the Steppes, with the exception of Armenian and Hittite (and maybe Albanian).

[gıulıoımpa]

overall for sure not but probably some isolated pockets of population may well be (or may have been before contemporary times)

[Papastratosels26]

No

[renaissance12]

Stop that nonsense! Steppe "theory" is just a hypothesis and to me it is utter bullshit. Never ever in history half-human-half-animals from steppe produced anything meaningful let alone civilazition, language, writing, art and so on.


Scythians

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Persians are iranic speaker middle easternes:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/06/jewfig2d.png

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-450ac31cbd836ea1b31eec5218b2a358

It seems they are equidistant between east europeans, sicilians and saudis.

[rajputprincess]

All west Asian and north African are closer to each other than they are to European.

Sent from my ZUK Z2132 using Tapatalk

[tipirneni]

South Asian mix in Persians is present in most people.

There are more Persians admixture people living in South Asia than in Iran proper

[Blondie]

Stop that nonsense! Steppe "theory" is just a hypothesis and to me it is utter bullshit. Never ever in history half-human-half-animals from steppe produced anything meaningful let alone civilazition, language, writing, art and so on.

PIE homeland was in Pontic Steppe, accept it steppe guy:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Indo-European_steppe_homeland_map.svg/400px-Indo-European_steppe_homeland_map.svg.png

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/pie-anthony.gif

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Anthony5/publication/273312232/figure/fig1/AS:346172708409349@1459545413941/The-Proto-Indo-European-homeland-with-migrations-outward-at-about-4200-BCE-1-3300-BCE.png

https://ambrosiasociety.org/images/p039_0_00_1.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GRf_H-_ZfiE/VwaoRcur9LI/AAAAAAAAA94/zWsiFV9eoZwMgq3xD_KGkzY821ilABuqA/s1600/indo-eurpoean-homeland.jpg

https://www.livius.org/site/assets/files/46959/indo-european_expansion_01.350x0-is-pid44266.gif

https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/pie-poss-21.png

[AmazingHazén]

Iranians are probably the most paradoxically self-hating and simultaneously self-promoting nationality on the planet, at least on the internet. When they're not droning on and on about how much they hate arabs, half the time they brag about their "closeness" to Europeans (they're no closer to Europeans than any other middle eastern swarthoid) and the other half they claim they have their own unique culture and that Euros only copied them. News flash, speaking an Indo-European language (with 50%+ arabic vocabulary in the case of Persian) has no bearing on cultural or even genetic affinity in today's day and age. I've also noticed a curious uptick of comments from sockpuppet accounts on various forums praising Persians for being "so beautiful", "so smart", "so rich", "so civilised" and so on. I think Iranians must be among the very few nationalities so shameless as to resort to such tactics, at least to this extent.

[Kivan]

Persians are Near-Easterners.

[Kamal900]

Iranians are probably the most paradoxically self-hating and simultaneously self-promoting nationality on the planet, at least on the internet. When they're not droning on and on about how much they hate arabs, half the time they brag about their "closeness" to Europeans (they're no closer to Europeans than any other middle eastern swarthoid) and the other half they claim they have their own unique culture and that Euros only copied them. News flash, speaking an Indo-European language (with 50%+ arabic vocabulary in the case of Persian) has no bearing on cultural or even genetic affinity in today's day and age. I've also noticed a curious uptick of comments from sockpuppet accounts on various forums praising Persians for being "so beautiful", "so smart", "so rich", "so civilised" and so on. I think Iranians must be among the very few nationalities so shameless as to resort to such tactics, at least to this extent.

Indeed. Well said. They just pester against us just to show how European they are. Of course, not all of them are like this, but at the same time, we're being used as scapegoats by OWD middle easterners just to garner acceptance from Europeans and the western world. I may not look like an Arab myself, but I'm very proud to be one.

[JQP4545]

Middle Easterners are genetically diverse and Iranians share relatedness to both northern and eastern Europeans from their Steppe ancestry (10-20%) as well as people from the Levant and eastern Mediterranean from their native Caucasus related ancestry. During the Chalcolithic we start to find Iranian/Caucasus like DNA in the Levant as well as NE Africa, Anatolia, the Balkans and Italy. Iranians don't have much DNA from SW Asia (Natufians) or north Africa (Iberomaurusian).
If you mean culturally, they have their own unique culture because they speak an Indo-European language, but are Muslim.

[AmazingHazén]

Middle Easterners are genetically diverse and Iranians share relatedness to both northern and eastern Europeans from their Steppe ancestry (10-20%) as well as people from the Levant and eastern Mediterranean from their native Caucasus related ancestry. During the Chalcolithic we start to find Iranian/Caucasus like DNA in the Levant as well as NE Africa, Anatolia, the Balkans and Italy. Iranians don't have much DNA from SW Asia (Natufians) or north Africa (Iberomaurusian).
If you mean culturally, they have their own unique culture because they speak an Indo-European language, but are Muslim.

Dude, you need to stop being so accepting of Iranians as having anything in common with Europeans. I'm very familiar with Iranians due to many of them living here in Sweden and all of them are swarthy as fuck. Speaking an Indo-European language or having minimal amounts of steppe ancestry means literally nothing in determining cultural affinity.

[Leto]

Dude, you need to stop being so accepting of Iranians as having anything in common with Europeans. I'm very familiar with Iranians due to many of them living here in Sweden and all of them are swarthy as fuck. Speaking an Indo-European language or having minimal amounts of steppe ancestry means literally nothing in determining cultural affinity.
They assimilate better since they are not Sunni and there's much fewer Islamist scumbags among them. I am against all kinds of Islam in white countries but nevertheless I've yet to hear about Shia terrorists blowing shit up and shooting people in Europe or America. And before someone mentions Hezbollah, they are only concerned with Israel, they don't care about Europeans or ordinary Americans (Zionist neocons are obviously not among them).

[FinalFlash]

Stop that nonsense! Steppe "theory" is just a hypothesis and to me it is utter bullshit. Never ever in history half-human-half-animals from steppe produced anything meaningful let alone civilazition, language, writing, art and so on.

It could be plausible. Some linguists subscribe to the Anatolian hypothesis.

[Leto]

At least they are not part of the Papuan façade. xD

Are Pashtuns part of the Papuan Façade? (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?192286-Are-Pashtuns-part-of-the-Papuan-Fa%E7ade)

[FinalFlash]

They are closest to non-Semitic Near Easterners (Armenians, Afghans, and Kurds) as well as to some Mesopotamian peoples like Assyrians.

They form a tight cluster with Kurds, Yazidis, and Azeris but are also related to neighboring peoples(depending on region)

[Arsen_]

We have lots of evidences. Proto-Indo-European may have originated in Anatolia but IE languages certainly dispersed from the Steppes, with the exception of Armenian and Hittite (and maybe Albanian).

Exactly! Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in Armenian Highland and Anatolia therefore the Hittites (and their twin-brothers Armenians!) needed no to be Indo-Europeanzied because they have always been Indo-European from the very beginning!

And IE languages which dispersed from the Steppes initially came to the Steppes not from the Moon but directly from the lands of the Hittites and Armenians.

[zarzian]

Iranians are probably the most paradoxically self-hating and simultaneously self-promoting nationality on the planet, at least on the internet. When they're not droning on and on about how much they hate arabs, half the time they brag about their "closeness" to Europeans (they're no closer to Europeans than any other middle eastern swarthoid) and the other half they claim they have their own unique culture and that Euros only copied them. News flash, speaking an Indo-European language (with 50%+ arabic vocabulary in the case of Persian) has no bearing on cultural or even genetic affinity in today's day and age. I've also noticed a curious uptick of comments from sockpuppet accounts on various forums praising Persians for being "so beautiful", "so smart", "so rich", "so civilised" and so on. I think Iranians must be among the very few nationalities so shameless as to resort to such tactics, at least to this extent.

Out of the tens of thousands of Iranians that I have known or met, not a single one ever considered Europeans as some sort of a cousin or felt some sort of an intrinsic connections with them, other then some ancient connections through shared language or some sort of a shared Aryan heritage. But in general, Iranians consider ourselves very different from Europeans in terms of genetics and phenotypes though there are rare overlaps. And on the other hand, a point that low IQ and misinformed people such as yourself seem to miss, is that Iranians are very different from Semites as well, just because we are in the middle east does not mean that we have to be of the same stock as Arabs, though again there are more overlaps but we are more different from Yemenis then Sicilians are from Icelanders.

[Kamal900]

Out of the tens of thousands of Iranians that I have known or met, not a single one ever considered Europeans as some sort of a cousin or felt some sort of an intrinsic connections with them, other then some ancient connections through shared language or some sort of a shared Aryan heritage. But in general, Iranians consider ourselves very different from Europeans in terms of genetics and phenotypes though there are rare overlaps. And on the other hand, a point that low IQ and misinformed people such as yourself seem miss, is that Iranians are very different from Semites as well, just because we are in the middle east does not mean that we have to be of the same stock as Arabs, though again there are more overlaps but we are more different from Yemenis then Sicilians are from Icelanders.

Indeed. Assyrians are Semites and they cluster with non-Semitic peoples of west asia and Jews of Mesopotamia though. Persians were very civilized while the Germanic peoples were Barbarians during the time of the Sassanians and beyond.

[Leto]

Persians are Near-Easterners.
That's true. The Persian language originated in Fars, Southwestern Iran
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/IranFars-SVG.svg/861px-IranFars-SVG.svg.png

[AmazingHazén]

Out of the tens of thousands of Iranians that I have known or met, not a single one ever considered Europeans as some sort of a cousin or felt some sort of an intrinsic connections with them, other then some ancient connections through shared language or some sort of a shared Aryan heritage. But in general, Iranians consider ourselves very different from Europeans in terms of genetics and phenotypes though there are rare overlaps. And on the other hand, a point that low IQ and misinformed people such as yourself seem to miss, is that Iranians are very different from Semites as well, just because we are in the middle east does not mean that we have to be of the same stock as Arabs, though again there are more overlaps but we are more different from Yemenis then Sicilians are from Icelanders.

I never said you were Arabs bro (though your culture and language have a huge amount of Arab influence). I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners. Some of you even try to pass yourselves off for Italians or Spanish. Truly disgusting behaviour, if you ask me.

I don't know where you've lived but I assure you, this is quite a common phenomenon among diaspora Iranians.

[lameduck]

I never said you were Arabs bro (though your culture and language have a huge amount of Arab influence). I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners. Some of you even try to pass yourselves off for Italians or Spanish. Truly disgusting behaviour, if you ask me.

I don't know where you've lived but I assure you, this is quite a common phenomenon among diaspora Iranians.

what wrong with integrating , Pakis dont integrate its problem then , Iranian integrate its problem then too?I think integration is good for multiculturalism.

[Leto]

I never said you were Arabs bro (though your culture and language have a huge amount of Arab influence). I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners. Some of you even try to pass yourselves off for Italians or Spanish. Truly disgusting behaviour, if you ask me.

I don't know where you've lived but I assure you, this is quite a common phenomenon among diaspora Iranians.
Persians and Middle Easterners in general love white women and half Iranian half European mixes often pass as white. Adrian Pasdar is half Iranian half Russian-German, his ex-wife is white American and their sons are completely white racially
https://www.assignmentx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/26_AdrianPasdarAND_SS_MG_0765.jpg

[AmazingHazén]

what wrong with integrating , Pakis dont integrate its problem then , Iranian integrate its problem then too?I think integration is good for multiculturalism.

Ingratiate is different from integrate. It means to suck up to someone in a sleazy way.

[Leto]

I never said you were Arabs bro (though your culture and language have a huge amount of Arab influence). I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners. Some of you even try to pass yourselves off for Italians or Spanish. Truly disgusting behaviour, if you ask me.

I don't know where you've lived but I assure you, this is quite a common phenomenon among diaspora Iranians.
Persians and Middle Easterners in general love white women and half Iranian half European mixes often pass as white. Adrian Pasdar is half Iranian half Russian-German, his ex-wife is white American and their sons are completely white racially
https://www.assignmentx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/26_AdrianPasdarAND_SS_MG_0765.jpg

[AmazingHazén]

what wrong with integrating , Pakis dont integrate its problem then , Iranian integrate its problem then too?I think integration is good for multiculturalism.

Ingratiate is different from integrate. It means to suck up to someone in a sleazy way.

[Impaler]

And this guy as well. Half Iranian and half Canadian.

http://i.imgur.com/XewY9S3.jpg (https://imgur.com/XewY9S3)

[lameduck]

Ingratiate is different from integrate. It means to suck up to someone in a sleazy way.

ok sorry misread it.

[Proto-Shaman]

National Geographic: Iranian natives’ genetic makeup is 56 percent Arabian! (http://realiran.org/national-geographic-iranian-natives-genetic-makeup-is-56-percent-arabian/)

... say National Geographic.

[AmazingHazén]

Persians and Middle Easterners in general love white women and half Iranian half European mixes often pass as white. Adrian Pasdar is half Iranian half Russian-German, his ex-wife is white American and their sons are completely white racially
https://www.assignmentx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/26_AdrianPasdarAND_SS_MG_0765.jpg

A minority of half-breeds might pass for white but I personally wouldn't consider them as such. I actually know a half-Iranian, half-Swede who looks passable for certain kinds of Europeans but who doesn't consider himself white. He does subscribe to an extremely purist view of whiteness though.

[Leto]

A minority of half-breeds might pass for white but I personally wouldn't consider them as such. I actually know a half-Iranian, half-Swede who looks passable for certain kinds of Europeans but who doesn't consider himself white.
But they are Caucasoid nevertheless. It's funny how many "alt-right" nationalists love the Japanese and East Asians in general but reject Middle Easterners even if they're not Muslim, although the Japs have zero West Eurasian blood. Hell, even the low class Latino illegals in the US have more European admixture than any East Asian.

[Haider]

Persians are basically Georgians with 10% South Asian like admixture. Not really Middle Eastern imo.

[Nazarene]

Persians are Middle Eastern wtf, ofc they're not Arabs though

[Leto]

Eurogenes K13

Iranian average

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 38.20
2 East_Med 29.70
3 South_Asian 10.56
4 Red_Sea 7.48
5 West_Med 4.23
6 Baltic 4.23
7 North_Atlantic 2.07
8 Sub-Saharan 1.47
9 Siberian 1.34
10 Amerindian 0.28
11 Oceanian 0.24
12 Northeast_African 0.17
13 East_Asian 0.04


Kurdish average

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 40.33
2 East_Med 29.77
3 South_Asian 8.07
4 West_Med 6.20
5 Red_Sea 5.69
6 North_Atlantic 3.67
7 Baltic 3.55
8 Siberian 1.01
9 Northeast_African 0.52
10 Amerindian 0.49
11 East_Asian 0.36
12 Oceanian 0.28
13 Sub-Saharan 0.07

I'm still waiting for Khorasani (NE Iran) samples.

[Oghuz]

Trolls will keep doing what they do best from their mothers basement.

1) It has been proven many times before that Iran is a IE nation not Semite. More than 90 % haplogroups are non Semite J1, so we are not Arabians like how stupid trolls try to prove on internet and fall on their faces each time. Arab is not an ethnicity anyways, its a linguistic identity which can be mildly associated with J1. In Iran, the only J1 minority is found in Assyrians, Persian Jews, Iranians Arabs ... they, all combined, do not even make up to 8 % of the total Iranian population.

2) White means christian and European so we are neither. No Iranian calls himself white or wants to be. Why would we, an iron age old empire nation, choose some other identity ? As far as I have seen, Iranians in general are such a self proud bunch.

3) Persians are just one type of central Iranians which come from Majorly IE Iranic parsa group that mixed with Iranian neolithic genetics around zagros mountains after entering Iranic plateau. This group is often mistaken to be the only type of Iranian just because its most famous and successful historically.

4) by autosomal DNA, Most Iranians are 40 % med. 40 % west Asian.

[AmazingHazén]

Trolls will keep doing what they do best from their mothers basement.

1) It has been proven many times before that Iran is a IE nation not Semite. More than 90 % haplogroups are non Semite J1, so we are not Arabians like how stupid trolls try to prove on internet and fall on their faces each time. Arab is not an ethnicity anyways, its a linguistic identity which can be mildly associated with J1. In Iran, the only J1 minority is found in Assyrians, Persian Jews, Iranians Arabs ... they, all combined, do not even make up to 8 % of the total Iranian population.

2) White means christian and European so we are neither. No Iranian calls himself white or wants to be. Why would we, an iron age old empire nation, choose some other identity ? As far as I have seen, Iranians in general are such a self proud bunch.

3) Persians are just one type of central Iranians which come from Majorly IE Iranic parsa group that mixed with Iranian neolithic genetics around zagros mountains after entering Iranic plateau. This group is often mistaken to be the only type of Iranian just because its most famous and successful historically.

4) by autosomal DNA, Most Iranians are 40 % med. 40 % west Asian.

Quick question for you. What is the general view in Iran of people from Khuzestan? My aforementioned half-Iranian, half-Swedish friend's dad is from a town called Dezful and his family has consistently maintained that they've always remained separate from Arabs. As I understand there have been periods in history when at least parts of Khuzestan were known as Arabistan. Do people from other parts of Iran consider them just as Iranian/Persian as anyone else or do you consider them somewhat "mongrelized"?

[Oghuz]

Quick question for you. What is the general view in Iran of people from Khuzestan? My aforementioned half-Iranian, half-Swedish friend's dad is from a town called Dezful and his family has consistently maintained that they've always remained separate from Arabs. As I understand there have been periods in history when at least parts of Khuzestan were known as Arabistan. Do people from other parts of Iran consider them just as Iranian/Persian as anyone else or do you consider them somewhat "mongrelized"?

No one cares about Arab vs Persian fantasy in real life. If you come to Tehran you will find many Arabs living there peacefully. I had a student whose family is Iraqi, they live in Dawlatabad district in Tehran.

Saying that few rotten eggs are everywhere.

[Negah]

I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners..

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=4969579


Iranian Swedes: from poverty to success
5:02 min

My playlist

232
Published fredag 17 februari 2012 kl 08.00
Iranians are one of Sweden’s largest minorities, accounting for nearly one percent of the population.

When the first generation of Iranian refugees fled to Sweden in the 80s many of them ended up living on welfare, despite their middle class backgrounds.

But today second generation Iranian Swedes are over-represented in higher education and in high paying professions like dentistry and engineering.

About 60 percent of them go on to higher education – far more than the Swedish average (45 percent) or the average for other minorities (37 percent). They are also over-represented in highly paid professions like dentistry and engineering.

Middle class Iranian culture – with its emphasis on education – may be part of the reason for their success. Becoming an engineer or a doctor is a mantra in many families, says Nima Sanandaji who has just published a book on Iranian Swedes entitled “From Poverty to Success”.

Sanandaji came to Sweden with his parents when he was eight. His parents lived on welfare. So did about a third of first generation Iranian refugees.

He says that the Iranian experience shows that minorities can succeed in Sweden – despite the odds. But it takes a generation or longer.

And prejudice still stands in the way for many qualified first and second generation immigrants.

Shori Zand came here 25 years ago. A decade ago – after years working as a midwife - she set up Western Sweden’s first private sector maternity clinic. She later expanded it to employ 600 people in healthcare clinics across the region.

“At first people said you can’t really speak properly and your qualifications are worthless. I was told I had to train more and work more, before I could advance. There were so many hurdles put in your way,” she said.

“I don’t think it’s racism, it’s more about the stereotypes people have of immigrants – that we can’t do anything or fend for ourselves.”

Today Iranian Swedes are over-represented in some professions where Sweden has skills shortages. Some estimates put the number of dentists with an Iranian background at about 30 percent.

The challenge will be to keep them here. Sanandaji and Zand say many still face difficulties getting jobs despite qualifications.

And that’s leading much needed dentists, doctors and engineers to leave the country for the US, Canada and the UK and the UK.

Reporter: Tom Sullivan tom.sullivan@sverigesradio.se

[Negah]

I never said you were Arabs bro (though your culture and language have a huge amount of Arab influence).

Iranian influence on the Arabs throughout history has been far greater. Islam's Golden Age much of it occurred within the Greater Iranian region. Even Iranians made significant contributions to the Arabic language itself.

[AmazingHazén]

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=4969579

I'm perfectly aware Iranians tend to be more educated than Arabs
and other middle easternoids in their respective diasporas. I'd reckon this is adequately explained by the fact that most diaspora Iranians either are or are descended from westernised, upper middle class Pahlavi regime supporters who fled Iran following the revolution, whereas Arabs and Turks tend to be either lower class economic migrants or refugees fleeing more desperate conditions in their home countries.

That doesn't mean Iranians have much in common with Europeans though. East Asians and Indians also tend to be well educated. The article you linked actually talks about Iranians feeling discriminated against in the Swedish job market. I don't think this would be the case if Iranians were very similar to Swedes.

[Negah]

I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners..

Watch this by Bernard Lewis and Faud Ajami where the discuss the Arabs, Persian, and Turks to get more insight so you can stop making such inaccurate statements


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXs9F5jEh_Y

Iran is a real country in the European sense of nation whereas none of the Arab countries are. ( watch the video around 5 minutes)

[Leto]

I'm perfectly aware Iranians tend to be more educated than Arabs
and other middle easternoids in their respective diasporas. I'd reckon this is adequately explained by the fact that most diaspora Iranians are descendants of westernised, upper middle class Pahlavi regime supporters who fled Iran following the revolution, whereas Arabs and Turks tend to be either lower class economic migrants or refugees fleeing more desperate conditions in their home countries.

That doesn't mean Iranians have much in common with Europeans though. East Asians and Indians also tend to be well educated. The article you linked actually talks about Iranians feeling discriminated against in the Swedish job market. I don't think this would be the case if Iranians were very similar to Swedes.
As a general rule, only Christian Middle Easterners assimilate as a group. See the Lebanese and Syrians (Christian) in North and South America. In Europe most Lebs tend to be Muslim. Armenians are more nationalistic but they are hard-working and succeed as well.

[Negah]

I never said you were Arabs bro (though your culture and language have a huge amount of Arab influence). I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners. Some of you even try to pass yourselves off for Italians or Spanish. Truly disgusting behaviour, if you ask me.

I don't know where you've lived but I assure you, this is quite a common phenomenon among diaspora Iranians.


I'm perfectly aware Iranians tend to be more educated than Arabs
and other middle easternoids in their respective diasporas. I'd reckon this is adequately explained by the fact that most diaspora Iranians are or are descended from westernised, upper middle class Pahlavi regime supporters who fled Iran following the revolution, whereas Arabs and Turks tend to be either lower class economic migrants or refugees fleeing more desperate conditions in their home countries.

That doesn't mean Iranians have much in common with Europeans though. East Asians and Indians also tend to be well educated. The article you linked actually talks about Iranians feeling discriminated against in the Swedish job market. I don't think this would be the case if Iranians were very similar to Swedes.

Iranians see4 themsselves as Orientals and AEasternes and Europoeanss as Westerners. Iranians refer to themselves as Sharghi (Easternes) and Any European is called Gharbi (westernes) or Farangi.

[Negah]

what wrong with integrating , Pakis dont integrate its problem then , Iranian integrate its problem then too?I think integration is good for multiculturalism.

Iranians tend to integrate better than Arabs, Pasktianis, Somalis, etc because Islam does not define Iranian identity as it does for other groups, Iran is a real country and is not a recent creation. Islam plays a much differnet role in Iran. Even the Ayatlllahs as discusting and corrupt as thery are using Islam to promote Iranian interest.

That is why Iranian don't join crazy groups like Al Qaeda, Wahabism Islamic State, etc,. That is why Iranian women overwhelmingly don't cover themselves like Arab, Pakistani, Somali women do in the West.

[Negah]

As a general rule, only Christian Middle Easterners assimilate as a group. See the Lebanese and Syrians (Christian) in North and South America. In Europe most Lebs tend to be Muslim. Armenians are more nationalistic but they are hard-working and succeed as well.

Armenia , Israel, Iran , Georgia, Azerbaijan are rela coutnries.,

[AmazingHazén]

Iranian influence on the Arabs throughout history has been far greater. Islams Golden Age much of it occurred within the Greater Iranian region. Even Iranians made significant contributions to the Arabic language itself.

Believe it or not I actually agree with you. I think Persian and Iranian history is criminally underrated in Europe and America; its accomplishments and heroes typically credited to the incredibly vague "Islamic golden age" label. Even the Arabs themselves admitted as much back in the day. This quote by Ibn Khaldun sums it up very well:

'Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'

[Negah]

Indeed. Well said. They just pester against us just to show how European they are. Of course, not all of them are like this, but at the same time, we're being used as scapegoats by OWD middle easterners just to garner acceptance from Europeans and the western world. I may not look like an Arab myself, but I'm very proud to be one.

You surely cannot be serious.

Show if an Iranian has ever said anything like what Saddam said " Three Whom God Should Not Have Created: Persians, Jews, and Flies (Arabic: ثلاثة كان على الله ان لا يخلقهم: الفرس، اليهود والذباب, Thalatha kan 'ala Allah an la yakhluqahum: al-Furs, al-Yahud wal-dhubab)"

[Kamal900]

You surely cannot be serious.

Show if an Iranian has ever said anything like what Saddam said " Three Whom God Should Not Have Created: Persians, Jews, and Flies (Arabic: ثلاثة كان على الله ان لا يخلقهم: الفرس، اليهود والذباب, Thalatha kan 'ala Allah an la yakhluqahum: al-Furs, al-Yahud wal-dhubab)"

I never said that Arabs aren't racist against them or something.

[Leto]

Believe it or not I actually agree with you. I think Persian and Iranian history is criminally underrated in Europe and America; its accomplishments and heroes typically credited to the incredibly vague "Islamic golden age" label. Even the Arabs themselves admitted as much back in the day. This quote by Ibn Khaldun sums it up very well:

'Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'
The actual Arabians (not Levantines) have created little to nothing in history. They are just primitive camel jockeys with abundant oil. Even their modern cities are designed by Western and East Asian engineers and built by South Asian migrants.

[Leto]

Armenia , Israel, Iran , Georgia, Azerbaijan are rela coutnries.,
Israel is not so much. I mean it's only 71 years old. The Ashkenazim are half Middle Eastern at most (a lot of half breeds and non-Jews came there as 'returnees' from Europe and Russia).
Georgia is not even Middle Eastern.

[Negah]

Believe it or not I actually agree with you. I think Persian and Iranian history is criminally underrated in Europe and America; its accomplishments and heroes typically credited to the incredibly vague "Islamic golden age" label. Even the Arabs themselves admitted as much back in the day. This quote by Ibn Khaldun sums it up very well:

'Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'

Part of it is that after the fall of the Safavid Iran has been a backward nation. Also the clerical regime has positioned itself againt the West. Today Iran is an isolated poor nation.

[AmazingHazén]

The actual Arabians have created little to nothing in history. They are just primitive camel jockeys with abundant oil. Even their modern cities are designed by Western and East Asian engineers and built by South Asian migrants.

I wouldn't be that harsh. Weren't the Nabataeans who built the ancient city of Petra ethnically Arab? I can also think of several prominent Arab scholars, philosophers and adventurers off the top of my head: Ibn Rushd, Ibn al-Haytham, Ibn Khaldun, al-Kindi, al-Biruni, Ibn Battuta, Ibn al-Fadlan.

[FinalFlash]

Really, it depends on the near easterner and European in question.

[Antimatter]

Now I feel bad for creating this thread. I never aimed at starting a war or poking fun competition at other cultures. I just wanted to make this thread because I personally have seen many of these cases of "We are closer to Europeans genetically and culturally" from some Iranians. Obviously this is not a generalization, but this was to whoever actually claims such fallacious claims.. Now everyone is making fun of "Primitive donkey-riding Arabs" and other nations. I guess everyone in the world has had his own share of history and everyone should be happy of what his ancestors accomplished and stop poking fun at other people for perhaps not accomplishing as much. History is not about patriotism/glorification, it's about learning what happened in the past to continue in the future. You shall be happy for what your ancestors accomplished but not through making fun of other peoples' history.

[Leto]

I wouldn't be that harsh. Weren't the Nabataeans who built the ancient city of Petra ethnically Arab? I can also think of several prominent Arab scholars, philosophers and adventurers off the top of my head: Ibn Rushd, Ibn al-Haytham, Ibn Khaldun, al-Kindi, al-Biruni, Ibn Battuta, Ibn al-Fadlan.
Well, I was talking about more recent history. Much of what we enjoy and use in everyday life wasn't created 2,000 years ago but rather over the past 200-300 years. Some historian accurately pointed out that they basically had stopped in their development about a thousand years ago. I hope you would agree that the modern world is largely a European creation.

[FinalFlash]

Now I feel bad for creating this thread. I never aimed at starting a war or poking fun competition at other cultures. I just wanted to make this thread because I personally have seen many of these cases of "We are closer to Europeans genetically and culturally" from some Iranians. Obviously this is not a generalization, but this was to whoever actually claims such fallacious claims.. Now everyone is making fun of "Primitive donkey-riding Arabs" and other nations. I guess everyone in the world has had his own share of history and everyone should be happy of what his ancestors accomplished and stop poking fun at other people for perhaps not accomplishing as much. History is not about patriotism/glorification, it's about learning what happened in the past to continue in the future. You shall be happy for what your ancestors accomplished but not through making fun of other peoples' history.

Iranians are relatively closer to a significant portion of the near east. Then what? Should they start acting and behaving like them because some PCA chart suggests it?

[AmazingHazén]

Well, I was talking about more recent history. Much of what we enjoy and use in everyday life wasn't created 2,000 years ago but rather over the past 200-300 years. Some historian accurately pointed out that they basically had stopped in their development about a thousand years ago. I hope you would agree that the modern world is largely a European creation.

Of course the modern world was solely a European creation. You'd have to be a complete cretin SJW not to realize that. I just don't like essentializing various cultures as hopelessly primitive. Most major civilisations have had their day in the limelight so to speak.

[Antimatter]

I wouldn't be that harsh. Weren't the Nabataeans who built the ancient city of Petra ethnically Arab? I can also think of several prominent Arab scholars, philosophers and adventurers off the top of my head: Ibn Rushd, Ibn al-Haytham, Ibn Khaldun, al-Kindi, al-Biruni, Ibn Battuta, Ibn al-Fadlan.

Al-Biruni was actually Iranian.

But to add, Ibn Zuhr, Al-Zahrawi, Averroes, Ibn Tufail, Jaber bin Hayyan, Al-Majriti etc.. Not to mention pre-Islamic Arabians (not necessarily Arabs) such as Sabaeans, Ghassanids, Lakhmids, Nabataeans, Osroene, Minaeans, Himayrites and so forth.

[AmazingHazén]

Al-Biruni was actually Iranian.

But to add, Ibn Zuhr, Al-Zahrawi, Averroes, Ibn Tufail, Jaber bin Hayyan, Al-Majriti etc.. Not to mention pre-Islamic Arabians (not necessarily Arabs) such as Sabaeans, Ghassanids, Lakhmids, Nabataeans, Osroene, Minaeans, Himayrites and so forth.

Ah my bad, thanks for the correction.

[Leto]

Of course the modern world was solely a European creation. You'd have to be a complete cretin SJW not to realize that. I just don't like essentializing various cultures as hopelessly primitive. Most major civilisations has had their day in the limelight so to speak.
Well, I agree however I do believe that without Islam many places would be much better off than they are now. I'd say only Sub-Saharan Africa is quite hopeless with or without Islam. Maybe in a couple of centuries but we won't see that in our lifetime. Also, state borders should generally reflect ethnic, linguistic and religious lines. Generally speaking more homogenous countries are also more successful. Look at Japan, South Korea, much of Europe before mass migration and then look at the Middle East, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, etc.

[Negah]

I wouldn't be that harsh. Weren't the Nabataeans who built the ancient city of Petra ethnically Arab? I can also think of several prominent Arab scholars, philosophers and adventurers off the top of my head: Ibn Rushd, Ibn al-Haytham, Ibn Khaldun, al-Kindi, al-Biruni, Ibn Battuta, Ibn al-Fadlan.

Arabs are great people. They are extremely diverse people.

[Antimatter]

Iranians are relatively closer to a significant portion of the near east. Then what? Should they start acting and behaving like them because some PCA chart suggests it?

No but to claim belonging to a whole separate population is just wrong. It's like saying Persians are closer to Armenians than to Levantines, hence Persians are closer to Europeans. This is in itself fallacious and whole lot of masses of people get caught by this type of weird conclusions in population genetics. As if it was comparing 3 parallel lines. Truth is much more deep, and Persians have their own culture, which shares a lot with their Arab neighbours (more so with their Afghan and Pakistani neighbours).

[FinalFlash]

No but to claim belonging to a whole separate population is just wrong. It's like saying Persians are closer to Armenians than to Levantines, hence Persians are closer to Europeans. This is in itself fallacious and whole lot of masses of people get caught by this type of weird conclusions in population genetics. As if it was comparing 3 parallel lines. Truth is much more deep, and Persians have their own culture, which shares a lot with their Arab neighbours (more so with their Afghan and Pakistani neighbours).

I understand your line of thinking and in terms of generics I agree with you. However, most people are oblivious to the nuances of genetics and thus are prone to make nonsensical assumptions. However, genetics are only one aspect in terms of determining likeness and commonalities with other groups.

[AmazingHazén]

Al-Biruni was actually Iranian.

But to add, Ibn Zuhr, Al-Zahrawi, Averroes, Ibn Tufail, Jaber bin Hayyan, Al-Majriti etc.. Not to mention pre-Islamic Arabians (not necessarily Arabs) such as Sabaeans, Ghassanids, Lakhmids, Nabataeans, Osroene, Minaeans, Himayrites and so forth.

Just noticed that you put Averroes in there which is actually the Latinised version of Ibn Rushd. So one off the list I guess.

[Antimatter]

Of course the modern world was solely a European creation. You'd have to be a complete cretin SJW not to realize that. I just don't like essentializing various cultures as hopelessly primitive. Most major civilisations have had their day in the limelight so to speak.

This is a very vague statement, much (perhaps everything) of what we stand upon today had it's basis likely since the Classical period at minimum.

[Marmara]

I have never seen Persians claiming they are genetically closer to Europeans.

[AmazingHazén]

This is a very vague statement, much (perhaps everything) of what we stand upon today had it's basis likely since the Classical period at minimum.

You can always trace any social phenomenon or historical development almost infinitely far back to any point in history preceding it. But post hoc does not equal propter hoc. You can theoretically link an infinitely long chain of causal events all the way back to the creation of the universe. That still doesn't take away from the fact that what happened in certain parts of Europe from the renaissance and scientific revolution onwards was nothing short of unprecedented. It's undeniable that without these developments and the resultant boom in scientific knowledge and industrial productivity, the vast majority of us would still be dirt poor subsistence farmers.

[Arhat]

Pamiri Tajiks yes, Pashtuns maybe and all other Iranics definitely not. Pamir Tajiks are 40% NE Euro/Late CWC-like. Iranians not more than 15%. Pashtuns around 25% as far as i know.

[Leto]

Pamiri Tajiks yes, Pashtuns maybe and all other Iranics definitely not. Pamir Tajiks are 40% NE Euro/Late CWC-like. Iranians not more than 15%. Pashtuns around 25% as far as i know.
There is a thread with nMonte results of Iranics. I don't wanna comment there because I can't stand the guy who opened it and generally don't interact with him.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256061-nMonte-for-Pamiri-Tajiks-Pashtuns-Kalash-and-Kho

[Antimatter]

Pamiri Tajiks yes, Pashtuns maybe and all other Iranics definitely not. Pamir Tajiks are 40% NE Euro/Late CWC-like. Iranians not more than 15%. Pashtuns around 25% as far as i know.

Are you referring to Steppe admixture? Iranians usually score on average around 25% meanwhile their neighbours to the west (Iraqis and Levantines) score only 6-12%. Steppe admixture usually increases as one goes further northeast.

[Fibonacci]

Believe it or not I actually agree with you. I think Persian and Iranian history is criminally underrated in Europe and America; its accomplishments and heroes typically credited to the incredibly vague "Islamic golden age" label. Even the Arabs themselves admitted as much back in the day. This quote by Ibn Khaldun sums it up very well:

'Most of the ḥadîth scholars who preserved traditions for the Muslims also were Persians, or Persian in language and upbringing, because the discipline was widely cultivated in the 'Irâq and the regions beyond. Furthermore all the scholars who worked in the science of the principles of jurisprudence were Persians. The same applies to speculative theologians and to most Qur'ân commentators. Only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus, the truth of the following statement by the Prophet becomes apparent: 'If scholarship hung suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it.'

Iranians invented the basis of government, law and order. They influenced millions of people from different cultures and areas including Europe. A lot of modern Christian European traditions have some roots in ancient Iranian traditions. When the ancient Persians had the most sophisticated civilization, Europe was an empty tribal land, with the exception of Greece even though their civilization and governance system was inferior. We've had more influence on other cultures than the opposite. Even the different factions that defeated Iran were ultimately Iranified. Alexander himself was a victim of this.

The Persians weren't the only ones, even the northern Iranian tribes had influenced others around them, especially the Slavic world. Ukraine, Serbia, Poland, Croatia and Russia were all some how influenced by other Iranian tribes. To the point where both Serbia and Croatia were named after Iranian tribes.

Iranic people have one of the most influential and sophisticated history. There's nothing you can say to refute this fact. They are proud of it and wouldn't trade it to see themselves as "European" like you claim. Self hate doesn't exist with such a deep history, self hate exists in places where iranians made the wrong decision which ultimately destroyed their future, a disgrace to their successful past.


https://youtu.be/wXFebggoweE

[Fibonacci]

That's true. The Persian language originated in Fars, Southwestern Iran
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/IranFars-SVG.svg/861px-IranFars-SVG.svg.png

The Persian language didn't originate in Iran. Where do people learn their history? The Persian language was brought into Iran from central Asia by Persian tribes. Iranians were never native to Iran, they migrated there from the north. It was the non-Iranian elamites whom were native to iran

[Leto]

The Persian language didn't originate in Iran. Where do people learn their history? The Persian language was brought into Iran from central Asia by Persian tribes. Iranians were never native to Iran, they migrated there from the north. It was the non-Iranian elamites whom were native to iran
I know about that. Persian language ≠ proto-Iranian. There is a reason why it is even called Farsi (= from Fars).

[Arhat]

The Persian language didn't originate in Iran. Where do people learn their history? The Persian language was brought into Iran from central Asia by Persian tribes. Iranians were never native to Iran, they migrated there from the north. It was the non-Iranian elamites whom were native to iran

That is irrelevant. Farsi is from western Iran and Proto-Farsi speakers in Elam/Fars were already very mixed and nothing like Proto-Iranic Sintashta anymore. Iranics who settled in Persia rather clustered with Pamiri than with Sintashta. Iranic languages were brought by Pamiri-like people who mixed with local people like Elamites.

[Leto]

That is irrelevant. Farsi is from western Iran and Proto-Farsi speakers in Elam/Fars were already very mixed and nothing like Sintashta anymore. Also Iranics who settled in Persia were already mixed with BMAC and rather clustered with Pamiri than with Sintashta. Iranic languages were brought by Pamiri-like people who mixed with local people like Elamites
Didn't they come from the North? I'd love to see Achaemenid-era samples. I'm sure the ruling class in 500-400 BC had more European admixture than the average Persian now.

[Leto]

Interestingly, later on Persians migrated to Central Asia and replaced Sogdian, Kwarezmian and Bactrian with Persian. Maybe Pashto is a Bactrian descendant?

[Arhat]

Didn't they come from the North? I'd love to see Achaemenid-era samples. I'm sure the ruling class in 500-400 BC had more European admixture than the average Persian now.
Ultimately of course but Iranics did not move directly from Andronovo into Persia they entered Iran and Afghanistan via BMAC, where they mixed much with the local farmers. That is one early Iranic from Iron age Turkemenistan

Turkmenistan_IA
Namazga_CA 0.528±0.040
Srubnaya_MLBA 0.472±0.040
taildiff: 0.561330411

He was already 50% non-steppe and close to Pamiri Tajiks
Tajik
Turkmenistan_IA 0.892±0.023
Han 0.108±0.023
taildiff: 0.794566182

Elite Achaemenid-era samples are probably even less and around 30%-40% if not lower.

[Arhat]

Interestingly, later on Persians migrated to Central Asia and replaced Sogdian, Kwarezmian and Bactrian with Persian. Maybe Pashto is a Bactrian descendant?

They are related and Pashto is closer to Bactrian than to Farsi but Pashto is not directly derived from it. Pashto is closer to shugni and some Pamiri languages. Proto-Pashtuns were actually from southeastern Afghanistan/southwestern Pakistan (Suleiman mountains). They populated Arachosia and the northern areas of Gedrosia. But later Baluchs replaced them in in Gedrosia mostly. Proto-Pashtuns were basically Sintashta-shifted Baluchs but today many northern Pashtuns are mixed with Dardics and rather cluster with Indo-Aryans and Kalash.

[AmazingHazén]

Didn't they come from the North? I'd love to see Achaemenid-era samples. I'm sure the ruling class in 500-400 BC had more European admixture than the average Persian now.

I doubt Achaemenids were substantially different from modern Iranians. If you look at frescoes and bas-reliefs from the Achaemenid and Sasanian periods, they all resemble your typical, run-of-the-mill, hook-nosed swarthoids. Europeans shouldn't have to insert themselves into other peoples' histories in order to feel great.

[Leto]

I doubt Achaemenids were substantially different from modern Iranians. If you look at frescoes and bas-reliefs from the Achaemenid and Sasanian periods, they all resemble your typical, run-of-the-mill, hook-nosed swarthoids. Europeans shouldn't have to insert themselves into other peoples' histories in order to feel great.
I agree but the early Aryans were white, that's been proven. That's why I'm saying that. Pamiri 'Tajiks' get 20-25% North European for a reason. And in India the higher the caste, the higher white admixture.

[Kamal900]

I agree but the early Aryans were white, that's been proven. That's why I'm saying that. Pamiri 'Tajiks' get 20-25% North European for a reason. And in India the higher a caste, the higher white admixture.

Yeah..but don't forget that they later on mixed with the Iranian-neolithic peoples of central Asia and beyond. When they had arrived in today's Iran, they were already mixed with west asiatics and the natives of central Asia.

[AmazingHazén]

I agree but the early Aryans were white, that's been proven. That's why I'm saying that. Pamiri 'Tajiks' get 20-25% North European for a reason. And in India the higher a caste, the higher white admixture.

Okay, but the only places actual civilisations emerged in the wake of Indo-European migrations were the places where the primitive, invading steppe tribes came into contact with more civilised, settled, agricultural populations that already vastly outnumbered them. The regions steppe nomads invaded where the lands were either pretty much empty or already settled by even more primitive hunter gatherer tribes remained barbaric wastelands for millennia.

[Stefanos.tasidis]

the term middle east is the stupidest term ever.
middle east of what ? lol...
im not being politically correct. just think.
"North" Europe
"Southeast" Europe
"east" Asia.
"West" Europe
more or less, these are frikkin universal.
now, what the hell is MIDDLE EAST. ??? middle east of china ? (somewhere in the pacific)
call it southwestern asia, mikra asia, or whatever, or name the specific country...

[Leto]

Okay, but the only places actual civilisations emerged in the wake of Indo-European migrations were the places where the primitive, invading steppe tribes came into contact with more civilised, settled, agricultural populations that already vastly outnumbered them. The regions steppe nomads invaded where the lands were either pretty much empty or already settled by even more primitive hunter gatherer tribes remained barbaric wastelands for millennia.
Wait, I don't get you. Are you a white nationalist or not? Up on the thread you said modern civilization was solely European. You also disparagingly called the Persians 'swarthy as fuck, swarthoids' and things like that. Now you are calling whites primitive and barbaric. Are you even an ethnic Swede? It's always funny how all those Middle Eastern and South Asian nationalists type that kind of messages living in barbaric and primitive white countries. :rolleyes: Maybe because their advanced civilizatons are yet to be electrified and digitalized? Lol.

[lameduck]

ancient samples from Iran,Ganj Dareh

The Ganj Dareh from Neolithic Iran sample is M249214, here are the harrapaworld results:

#
Population
Percent
Baloch
56.96
Caucasian
24.44
S-Indian
6.59
W-African
5.44
SW-Asian
4.26
Papuan
1.02
SE-Asian
0.76
Pygmy
0.53

Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance
makrani (hgdp) 11.76
balochi (hgdp) 13.63
brahui (hgdp) 14.27
kalash (hgdp) 22.65
pathan (hgdp) 25.07
bhatia (harappa) 25.21
pashtun (harappa) 26.64
sindhi (hgdp) 27.03
sindhi (harappa) 27.14
burusho (hgdp) 27.51
tajik (yunusbayev) 29.38
punjabi-arain (xing) 29.38
punjabi-khatri (harappa) 29.98
punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 30.72
kashmiri (harappa) 31.09
punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 31.32
kashmiri-pandit (reich) 32.19
iranian (behar) 32.32
gujarati-muslim (harappa) 32.56
turkmen (yunusbayev) 32.71

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance
1

83.9%
brahui (hgdp)
+
16.1%
georgian (behar)
@
9.52
2

83.4%
brahui (hgdp)
+
16.6%
abhkasian (yunusbayev)
@
9.57
3

89.3%
makrani (hgdp)
+
10.7%
georgian (behar)
@
9.68
4

88.9%
makrani (hgdp)
+
11.1%
abhkasian (yunusbayev)
@
9.7
5

89.4%
makrani (hgdp)
+
10.6%
north-ossetian (yunusbayev)
@
10.36
6

87.1%
makrani (hgdp)
+
12.9%
lezgin (behar)
@
10.4
7

89.6%
makrani (hgdp)
+
10.4%
adygei (hgdp)
@
10.4
8

89.1%
makrani (hgdp)
+
10.9%
chechen (yunusbayev)
@
10.52
9

90.1%
makrani (hgdp)
+
9.9%
balkar (yunusbayev)
@
10.54
10

83.2%
brahui (hgdp)
+
16.8%
north-ossetian (yunusbayev)
@
10.66
11

88.6%
makrani (hgdp)
+
11.4%
urkarah (xing)
@
10.72
12

83.5%
brahui (hgdp)
+
16.5%
adygei (hgdp)
@
10.76
13

91%
makrani (hgdp)
+
9%
armenian (behar)
@
10.79
14

89.8%
makrani (hgdp)
+
10.2%
kumyk (yunusbayev)
@
10.81
15

83.8%
brahui (hgdp)
+
16.2%
balkar (yunusbayev)
@
10.96
16

89%
makrani (hgdp)
+
11%
kurd (yunusbayev)
@
10.97
17

80.2%
brahui (hgdp)
+
19.8%
lezgin (behar)
@
10.98
18

88.6%
makrani (hgdp)
+
11.4%
kurd (xing)
@
10.99
19

87.4%
balochi (hgdp)
+
12.6%
georgian (behar)
@
11.05
20

90.5%
makrani (hgdp)
+
9.5%
stalskoe (xing)
@
11.06

[AmazingHazén]

Iranians invented the basis of government, law and order. They influenced millions of people from different cultures and areas including Europe. A lot of modern Christian European traditions have some roots in ancient Iranian traditions. When the ancient Persians had the most sophisticated civilization, Europe was an empty tribal land, with the exception of Greece even though their civilization and governance system was inferior. We've had more influence on other cultures than the opposite. Even the different factions that defeated Iran were ultimately Iranified. Alexander himself was a victim of this.

The Persians weren't the only ones, even the northern Iranian tribes had influenced others around them, especially the Slavic world. Ukraine, Serbia, Poland, Croatia and Russia were all some how influenced by other Iranian tribes. To the point where both Serbia and Croatia were named after Iranian tribes.

Iranic people have one of the most influential and sophisticated history. There's nothing you can say to refute this fact. They are proud of it and wouldn't trade it to see themselves as "European" like you claim. Self hate doesn't exist with such a deep history, self hate exists in places where iranians made the wrong decision which ultimately destroyed their future, a disgrace to their successful past.


https://youtu.be/wXFebggoweE

Uh, yeah. That's kind of what I said in the comment you quoted. I just want Iranians and other West Asiatics to know that there's no shame in being middle eastern, near eastern, West Asian, Southwest Asian or whichever denomination you prefer. That's why I find it sad that at least most of the Iranians I've met would prefer to be culturally associated with Europeans rather than with their immediate neighbours.

[AmazingHazén]

Wait, I don't get you. Are you a white nationalist or not? Up on the thread you said modern civilization was solely European. You also disparagingly called the Persians 'swarthy as fuck, swarthoids' and things like that. Now you are calling whites primitive and barbaric. Are you even an ethnic Swede? It's always funny how all those Middle Eastern and South Asian nationalists type that kind of messages living in barbaric and primitive white countries. :rolleyes: Maybe because their advanced civilizatons are yet to be electrified and digitalized? Lol.

Yes I am an ethnic Swede but I'm definitely not a white nationalist. I did say modern civilisation is a European creation, which I believe to be true. I just prefer to be realistic about things rather than believe in self-serving myths. Whites have been on top from the renaissance onwards but before that, not really.

[Leto]

Whites have been on top from the renaissance onwards but before that, not really.
Unless Ancient Greece and Rome were white (= European) civilizations which they were in my opinion. Greek influence reached as far as India. And the Romans ruled over the Levant, Egypt and Maghreb.

[AmazingHazén]

Unless Ancient Greece and Rome were white (= European) civilizations which they were in my opinion. Greek influence reached as far as India. And the Romans ruled over the Levant, Egypt and Maghreb.

I guess you could call Greco-Roman civilisation European in a sense but they weren't exactly pan-European, know what I mean?

[lameduck]

Yes I am an ethnic Swede but I'm definitely not a white nationalist. I did say modern civilisation is a European creation, which I believe to be true. I just prefer to be realistic about things rather than believe in self-serving myths. Whites have been on top from the renaissance onwards but before that, not really.

I agree modern world is a White man creation post renaissance , even Japanese and Chinese contributions are mainly limited to manufacturing and spread of technology rather than creation of Ideas. Middle east is not even in picture you have to go back 1000 years to see something worthwhile from them in so called "Islamic Golden Age"

[Leto]

I guess you could call Greco-Roman civilisation European in a sense but they weren't exactly pan-European, know what I mean?
Well, pan-Europeanism appeared only with European Christendom. But its foundation was Greco-Roman to a very large degree. I mean Latin and Greek were used and studied from Spain to Russia.

[AmazingHazén]

Well, pan-Europeanism appeared only with European Christendom. But its foundation was Greco-Roman to a very large degree. I mean Latin and Greek were used and studied from Spain to Russia.

Greco-Roman civilisation provided the basis for the European identity as we know it today. But I doubt the actual Greeks and Romans in their heyday would be able to conceptualize anything recognizable as "Europeaness" to modern sensibilities, seeing that half of Europe was outside the empire's borders at their fullest extent. They would definitely have been Europids of various types and they probably had some way of conceptualizing race but more research is required on that front. In any case, the fundamental divide at that time was that of Greeks/Romans on one side and barbarians on the other.

[AmazingHazén]

Unless Ancient Greece and Rome were white (= European) civilizations which they were in my opinion. Greek influence reached as far as India. And the Romans ruled over the Levant, Egypt and Maghreb.

In any case, the Greeks and Romans faced some stiff competition in terms of technological advancement from some other cultures, especially China. What I meant by "whites dominated from the renaissance onwards" was that European culture only became this completely dominant, world-conquering juggernaut post-renaissance.

[Fibonacci]

I know about that. Persian language ≠ proto-Iranian. There is a reason why it is even called Farsi (= from Fars).

The tribes that migrated into modern day Fars were called Pars. They named the province after themselves. The medians and Persians migrated into Iran. The medians spoke a kurdish language, the Persians spoke avestan which develops into Persian sometime after they settle in Iran. The Persian language is a descendant of Avesta which originate in central Asia.

[Leto]

The tribes that migrated into modern day Fars were called Pars. They named the province after themselves. The medians and Persians migrated into Iran. The medians spoke a kurdish language, the Persians spoke avestan which develops into Persian sometime after they settle in Iran. The Persian language is a descendant of Avesta which originate in central Asia.
Last time I checked Avestan was an Eastern Iranian language.

[Fibonacci]

Last time I checked Avestan was an Eastern Iranian language.

Which is also Persians ancestor. The Zoroastrian prayers and texts were written in avestan. The history of persian looks like this
Avesta -> ancient Persian -> middle Persian -> modern persian

You think the Persian language just randomly came out of the ground in southern Iran? How the fuck is this logic possible?

In Iran we are taught that 2 tribes entered Iran. Those 2 tribes were the Parsa (Persians) and the Medes (kurds). They entered Iran from Turkmenistan. The Persians settled in modern day Fars, the Medes settled in modern day Kurdistan. They named the areas after themselves.

Eastern and Western Iranian languages aren't as different as people think they are. If I were to look at ossetian and pashto, I can easily recognize the similarities in both grammar and vocabulary with Persian. The Iranian family split into west and east right after the Persians and Medes migrated into Iran. The languages went through change that made them more distinct

[tipirneni]

Which is also Persians ancestor. The Zoroastrian prayers and texts were written in avestan. The history of persian looks like this
Avesta -> ancient Persian -> middle Persian -> modern persian

You think the Persian language just randomly came out of the ground in southern Iran? How the fuck is this logic possible?

In Iran we are taught that 2 tribes entered Iran. Those 2 tribes were the Parsa (Persians) and the Medes (kurds). They entered Iran from Turkmenistan. The Persians settled in modern day Fars, the Medes settled in modern day Kurdistan. They named the areas after themselves.

Eastern and Western Iranian languages aren't as different as people think they are. If I were to look at ossetian and pashto, I can easily recognize the similarities in both grammar and vocabulary with Persian. The Iranian family split into west and east right after the Persians and Medes migrated into Iran. The languages went through change that made them more distinct

You might be wrong with 1 single wave as Pers & Medes. In India many older castes have medes in their names but not Pers. The old Elamite people might have mixed with IVC people & moved into India after losing their area. There are castes with Elam in their names & places with elam.

There is a old substrate that is uralic during times of elam that probably mixed little into Dravidian. There was a older R1b like people that these people mixed with during pre & during Kelteminar culture. During later times you can see Mittani ruling class ruling the hurrian populations which is a result of this. The older Aratta & Hittite symbols were present in Shahr-i-Soktha BA times & even now used in the Royal symbols in India. Classic double headed symbol is still a royal symbol in India from Bronze age & probably stone age in Anatolia. The nmonte shows high Shaahr-i-Sokhte in Indians, I am getting like 90% on sample 3. These royal symbols used are from near where I am since the BA times.

https://www.granger.com/wmpix/woh/ind/0105476-INDIA-MYSORE-TREASURE-Jeweled-perfume-bottle-in-the-shape-of-a-multi-headed-eagle-a-symbol-of-the-maharajas-sovereignty-From-the-Mysore-Palace-in-Mysore-India.jpg

The Hittite archives of Hattusa, near present-day Bogazkale contained what is the oldest surviving horse training manual in the world. The elaborate work was written c. 1345 BCE on four tablets and contains 1080 lines by a Mitanni horse trainer named Kikkuli. It begins with the words, "Thus speaks Kikkuli, master horse trainer of the land of Mitanni" and uses various Indo-Iranian words for horse colours, numbers and names. Examples are:
assussanni a form of the Sanskrit asva-sani meaning 'horse trainer',
aika wartanna meaning one turn (cf. Vedic Sanskrit ek vartanam),
tera wartanna meaning three turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit tri vartanam),
panza wartanna meaning five turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit panca vartanam),
satta wartanna meaning seven turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit sapta vartanam), and
navartanna meaning nine turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit nava vartanam).
[Regrettably, writers do not mention the Old Iranian equivalents.]

A Hurrian text from Yorgan Tepe also uses Indo-Iranian words to describe the colour of horses, words such as babru for brown, parita for grey, and pinkara for a reddish hue.

The Kikkuli manual for training chariot horses highlights the links between the Mitanni and Hittites. Even though they were rivals at times, the two groups also collaborated frequently. The fact that the Hittites employed a Mitanni as a master trainer of horses may indicate that it was the Mitanni who were the regional experts in horse training especially for military purposes (in a manner similar to the Sogdians in the East) and that the Mitanni in turn had brought the expertise with them in their migration westward.

The methods used in the Kikkuli method enabled horses to be trained without injury. The text detailed a 214-day training regime using interval training and sports medicine techniques such as the principle of progression, peak loading systems, electrolyte replacement, fartlek training, intervals and repetitions and was directed at horses with a high proportion of slow-twitch muscle fibres. the Kikkuli horses were stabled, rugged, washed down with warm water and fed oats, barley and hay at least three times per day.

Kikkuli's interval training technique stressed the leading of horses at a trot, canter and gallop, before subjecting them to the weight bearing stress of a rider, driver or chariot. Workouts sometimes numbered three a day with scheduled rest days. Kikkuli's interval training contained three stages - the first two for developing strong legs and a strong cardio-muscular system, and the third for increasing neuromuscular conditioning. His workouts included brief recoveries to lower the heart rate. Swimming was also included in intervals of three to five sessions, with rest periods after each session. The horses were also subject to warming down periods and the method's example of cantering included intermediate pauses to lower the heart rate partially and as the training advanced the workouts included intervals at the canter.


Mitanni Indo-Iranian Names
The names of the Mitanni kings and their capital city were of Indo-Iranian origin. For instance, Tueratta was a form of the Indo-Iranian Tvesa-ratha meaning 'Possessor of a Chariot'. The name S'attuara was a form of Satvar meaning 'warrior' and the name of the Mitanni capital Wassukanni, was a form of Vasu-khani meaning 'wealth-mine'.

The names of proto-Indo-Iranian dieties are also found to form the names of the Kassite rulers of Babylonia.

[tipirneni]

Which is also Persians ancestor. The Zoroastrian prayers and texts were written in avestan. The history of persian looks like this
Avesta -> ancient Persian -> middle Persian -> modern persian

You think the Persian language just randomly came out of the ground in southern Iran? How the fuck is this logic possible?

In Iran we are taught that 2 tribes entered Iran. Those 2 tribes were the Parsa (Persians) and the Medes (kurds). They entered Iran from Turkmenistan. The Persians settled in modern day Fars, the Medes settled in modern day Kurdistan. They named the areas after themselves.

Eastern and Western Iranian languages aren't as different as people think they are. If I were to look at ossetian and pashto, I can easily recognize the similarities in both grammar and vocabulary with Persian. The Iranian family split into west and east right after the Persians and Medes migrated into Iran. The languages went through change that made them more distinct

Medes might be olden civilization closer to Babylonian people who had extensive contacts with Elams & IVC people. There was probably a lot of commerce. The Pers are newer tribe that conquered these people & brought all the trade to stop. They probably got the newer province of Afghanistan & Pakistan as Sind in their empire which was lost during Greco-Persian wars.

[Aren]

The tribes that migrated into modern day Fars were called Pars. They named the province after themselves. The medians and Persians migrated into Iran. The medians spoke a kurdish language, the Persians spoke avestan which develops into Persian sometime after they settle in Iran. The Persian language is a descendant of Avesta which originate in central Asia.

The Median connection with modern day Kurds is far from agreed on. Proto-Kurdish is said to have been spoken just to the north of old Persian in the Lorestan province of Iran. Medians were further north in Iran.

[Fibonacci]

You might be wrong with 1 single wave as Pers & Medes. In India many older castes have medes in their names but not Pers. The old Elamite people might have mixed with IVC people & moved into India after losing their area. There are castes with Elam in their names & places with elam.

There is a old substrate that is uralic during times of elam that probably mixed little into Dravidian. There was a older R1b like people that these people mixed with during pre & during Kelteminar culture. During later times you can see Mittani ruling class ruling the hurrian populations which is a result of this. The older Aratta & Hittite symbols were present in Shahr-i-Soktha BA times & even now used in the Royal symbols in India. Classic double headed symbol is still a royal symbol in India from Bronze age & probably stone age in Anatolia. The nmonte shows high Shaahr-i-Sokhte in Indians, I am getting like 90% on sample 3. These royal symbols used are from near where I am since the BA times.

https://www.granger.com/wmpix/woh/ind/0105476-INDIA-MYSORE-TREASURE-Jeweled-perfume-bottle-in-the-shape-of-a-multi-headed-eagle-a-symbol-of-the-maharajas-sovereignty-From-the-Mysore-Palace-in-Mysore-India.jpg

The Hittite archives of Hattusa, near present-day Bogazkale contained what is the oldest surviving horse training manual in the world. The elaborate work was written c. 1345 BCE on four tablets and contains 1080 lines by a Mitanni horse trainer named Kikkuli. It begins with the words, "Thus speaks Kikkuli, master horse trainer of the land of Mitanni" and uses various Indo-Iranian words for horse colours, numbers and names. Examples are:
assussanni a form of the Sanskrit asva-sani meaning 'horse trainer',
aika wartanna meaning one turn (cf. Vedic Sanskrit ek vartanam),
tera wartanna meaning three turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit tri vartanam),
panza wartanna meaning five turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit panca vartanam),
satta wartanna meaning seven turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit sapta vartanam), and
navartanna meaning nine turns (cf. Vedic Sanskrit nava vartanam).
[Regrettably, writers do not mention the Old Iranian equivalents.]

A Hurrian text from Yorgan Tepe also uses Indo-Iranian words to describe the colour of horses, words such as babru for brown, parita for grey, and pinkara for a reddish hue.

The Kikkuli manual for training chariot horses highlights the links between the Mitanni and Hittites. Even though they were rivals at times, the two groups also collaborated frequently. The fact that the Hittites employed a Mitanni as a master trainer of horses may indicate that it was the Mitanni who were the regional experts in horse training especially for military purposes (in a manner similar to the Sogdians in the East) and that the Mitanni in turn had brought the expertise with them in their migration westward.

The methods used in the Kikkuli method enabled horses to be trained without injury. The text detailed a 214-day training regime using interval training and sports medicine techniques such as the principle of progression, peak loading systems, electrolyte replacement, fartlek training, intervals and repetitions and was directed at horses with a high proportion of slow-twitch muscle fibres. the Kikkuli horses were stabled, rugged, washed down with warm water and fed oats, barley and hay at least three times per day.

Kikkuli's interval training technique stressed the leading of horses at a trot, canter and gallop, before subjecting them to the weight bearing stress of a rider, driver or chariot. Workouts sometimes numbered three a day with scheduled rest days. Kikkuli's interval training contained three stages - the first two for developing strong legs and a strong cardio-muscular system, and the third for increasing neuromuscular conditioning. His workouts included brief recoveries to lower the heart rate. Swimming was also included in intervals of three to five sessions, with rest periods after each session. The horses were also subject to warming down periods and the method's example of cantering included intermediate pauses to lower the heart rate partially and as the training advanced the workouts included intervals at the canter.


Mitanni Indo-Iranian Names
The names of the Mitanni kings and their capital city were of Indo-Iranian origin. For instance, Tueratta was a form of the Indo-Iranian Tvesa-ratha meaning 'Possessor of a Chariot'. The name S'attuara was a form of Satvar meaning 'warrior' and the name of the Mitanni capital Wassukanni, was a form of Vasu-khani meaning 'wealth-mine'.

The names of proto-Indo-Iranian dieties are also found to form the names of the Kassite rulers of Babylonia.

I honestly don't know why you're bringing Indian history into this. Elamites had nothing to do with the Iranian migrations and languages. I am strictly talking about Iranian history not elamite. Modern day Iranians are not genetically the exact same as the elamites either. The genetic make up of this area has changed ever since the Persian Empire.

Surnames don't mean anything special. For example, Iranians didn't have surnames until early 1900s. The government went around asking people to make up a surname. The notion of surnames didn't really exist in that entire area so there's no historic value behind them. You can't really prove that the Indian man 5000km away from Mesopotamia has median ancestry just because of his name.

[Borealis]

If it hasn't already been said on this thread, Persians are further from Europeans than many Levantines are. This is due to the substantial CHG/Iranian Neolithic input they have which pulls them away from Europe.

[Marmara]

If it hasn't already been said on this thread, Persians are further from Europeans than many Levantines are. This is due to the substantial CHG/Iranian Neolithic input they have which pulls them away from Europe.

It's not the real reason. Persians have higher North European admixture than Levantine Arabs. It's the high Mediterranean admixture among Levantine Arabs and high South Asian admixture among Persians that's making the difference.

Pure CHG people often look white-ish.

[Fibonacci]

If it hasn't already been said on this thread, Persians are further from Europeans than many Levantines are. This is due to the substantial CHG/Iranian Neolithic input they have which pulls them away from Europe.

Levantines had direct contact with multiple European factions, the Romans, templars, Greeks, you name it. Their neolithic ancestors also migrated into south eastern Europe.

Iranian neolithics and CHGs in general did not leave west asia. Europeans were never able to completely conquer Iran either. The Greeks did but they didn't settle in Iran.

[Fibonacci]

It's not the real reason. Persians have higher North European admixture than Levantine Arabs. It's the high Mediterranean admixture among Levantine Arabs and high South Asian admixture among Persians that's making the difference.

Pure CHG people often look white-ish.

The average Persian has up to 25% yamnaya which is another reason. On autosomal graphs, Persians cluster with caucasians but with a noticeable shift towards central Asia because of it. Tajiks for example can have higher northern European admixtures. The Iranian migration did indeed leave a noticeable change in the genetic make up of that area. They came in large numbers

[tipirneni]

I honestly don't know why you're bringing Indian history into this. Elamites had nothing to do with the Iranian migrations and languages. I am strictly talking about Iranian history not elamite. Modern day Iranians are not genetically the exact same as the elamites either. The genetic make up of this area has changed ever since the Persian Empire.

Surnames don't mean anything special. For example, Iranians didn't have surnames until early 1900s. The government went around asking people to make up a surname. The notion of surnames didn't really exist in that entire area so there's no historic value behind them. You can't really prove that the Indian man 5000km away from Mesopotamia has median ancestry just because of his name.

Elamites were olden tribe forced out of Iran by Pers. The Medes were more friendly with Babylonian & IVC people so there was some admix. They were different from Persian conquerers who came later. That was all I am saying.

I was giving some data on the admixure. Indians have high Iran_N like DNA, some also have the Iran_CHL DNA. This only means they have been forced out from Iran by newer tribes.

[Borealis]

Levantines had direct contact with multiple European factions, the Romans, templars, Greeks, you name it. Their neolithic ancestors also migrated into south eastern Europe.

Iranian neolithics and CHGs in general did not leave west asia. Europeans were never able to completely conquer Iran either. The Greeks did but they didn't settle in Iran.

The recent contacts with Europeans probably left only a minor impact and for the most part the connection is due to the neolithic migration. Iranian neolithics did leave west Asia, absolutely. In fact there are some South central asian populations with higher Iranian neolithic than Iranians themselves let alone other west Asians.


It's not the real reason. Persians have higher North European admixture than Levantine Arabs. It's the high Mediterranean admixture among Levantine Arabs and high South Asian admixture among Persians that's making the difference.

Pure CHG people often look white-ish.

It is the lower ANF/Med component among Persians and higher CHG together that makes the difference, because those two populations were very distinct from one another. There are no CHG people btw so I dont know what you mean by they look white.

[tipirneni]

The recent contacts with Europeans probably left only a minor impact and for the most part the connection is due to the neolithic migration. Iranian neolithics did leave west Asia, absolutely. In fact there are some South central asian populations with higher Iranian neolithic than Iranians themselves let alone other west Asians.



It is the lower ANF/Med component among Persians and higher CHG together that makes the difference, because those two populations were very distinct from one another. There are no CHG people btw so I dont know what you mean by they look white.

CHG is also present in India in old form. Many look darker still have some CHG.

[Borealis]

CHG is also present in India in old form. Many look darker still have some CHG.

Man some tribals randomly have high Caucasian dont they.

[tipirneni]

Man some tribals randomly have high Caucasian dont they.

Yes. It was dispersed out from very long ago.

[Fibonacci]

The Median connection with modern day Kurds is far from agreed on. Proto-Kurdish is said to have been spoken just to the north of old Persian in the Lorestan province of Iran. Medians were further north in Iran.

What are you talking about? The Medes are literally known as north western Iranian tribes. Their capital was Ecbatana, which is an Iranian name. They spoke median, classified as a north western Iranian language while Persian was south western. Their descendants are modern day Kurds. The term mede didn't even exist prior to the Iranian migration. Why are you making such bullshit claims? The Medes weren't Assyrian nor did they have anything to do with any Mesopotamians. It is well established that the Medes were Iranic and that their language was an early form of kurdish. If anything, I most likely have median ancestors based on how close their province is to my home town.

Lorestan is the province of Lurs. They speak a sub branch of old Persian. Their language is a more pure form of Persian. They have nothing to do with the Medes nor Kurds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language

[Aren]

What are you talking about? The Medes are literally known as north western Iranian tribes. Their capital was Ecbatana, which is an Iranian name. They spoke median, classified as a north western Iranian language while Persian was south western. Their descendants are modern day Kurds. The term mede didn't even exist prior to the Iranian migration. Why are you making such bullshit claims? The Medes weren't Assyrian nor did they have anything to do with any Mesopotamians. It is well established that the Medes were Iranic and that their language was an early form of kurdish. If anything, I most likely have median ancestors based on how close their province is to my home town.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language

Are you sick? Who said Medes weren't Iranians?

No it's not established that they spoke Kurdish. Median is def not classified as being ancestral to any of the modern NW Iranian languages.

[Fibonacci]

Are you sick? Who said Medes weren't Iranians?

No it's not established that they spoke Kurdish. Median is def not classified as being ancestral to any of the modern NW Iranian languages.

Read about it rather than making up your own claims. Medes spoke an Iranian language otherwise kurdish wouldn't exist. They are the ancestors of the Kurds. Make a simple Google search.

[tipirneni]

What are you talking about? The Medes are literally known as north western Iranian tribes. Their capital was Ecbatana, which is an Iranian name. They spoke median, classified as a north western Iranian language while Persian was south western. Their descendants are modern day Kurds. The term mede didn't even exist prior to the Iranian migration. Why are you making such bullshit claims? The Medes weren't Assyrian nor did they have anything to do with any Mesopotamians. It is well established that the Medes were Iranic and that their language was an early form of kurdish. If anything, I most likely have median ancestors based on how close their province is to my home town.

Lorestan is the province of Lurs. They speak a sub branch of old Persian. Their language is a more pure form of Persian. They have nothing to do with the Medes nor Kurds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language

from paper https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA20120200003_79323951.pdf says Kurds are more related to Assyrian & Jews to start with & later they mixed with Old Iranian from the North. They might be related to the earlier Invaders & proto Uralic substrata tribes like Kassite.

Medes might have been a mixed Saka & Iranic people

the Medes were usually mentioned together with another steppe tribe, the Scythians, who seem to have been the dominant group. They were divided into many districts and towns, under petty local chieftains; from the names in the Assyrian inscriptions, it appears they had already adopted the religion of Zoroaster.

An Assyrian military report from 800 BC lists 28 names of Mede chiefs, but only one of these is positively identified as Iranian. A second report from c. 700 BC lists 26 names; of these, 5 seem to be Iranian, the others are not. These Saka chiefs migrated to India during some wars & mixed with Agriculturalists


Ethno-genetically, it
could be shown, that Kurds derived obviously out of a broader,
pre-IE multi-cultural substratum of the Near East and Eurasia,
and were in early ancient layers predominantly shaped by first
Neolithic Northern Fertile Crescent farmer and shepherd aborigines. Genetically, they seem to be close related to other Near
East and Eurasia substratum aborigines like Jews and Armenians (Nebel et al. & L. Yepiskoposyan). References for the very
historic existence of Kurds and speakers of the “Kurdish Complex” B.C.E, could also been evidenced linguistically, most
notably by leading Iranologist Gernot Windfuhr, who presented



The Six Median Tribes
Herodotus lists the names of six Mede tribes or castes. Some of these are similar to tribal names of the Scythians, suggesting a definitive link between these two groups.
The Busae group is thought to derive from the Persian term buza meaning indigenous (i.e. not Iranian). Whether this was based on an originally Iranian term, or their own name, is unknown.
The second group is called the Paraetaceni, or Parae-tak-(eni) in Persian, and denotes nomadic inhabitants of the mountains of Paraetacene. This name recalls the Scythian Para-la-ti, the people of Kolaxis, believed to represent the common people in general, but whom Herodotus calls the "Royal Scythians".
The third group is called Strukhat.
The fourth group is the Arizanti, whose name is derived from the words Arya (noble), and Zantu (tribe, clan).
The fifth group were the Budii, found also among the Black Sea Scythians as Budi-ni. Buddha was of the tribe Budha, the Saka (eastern Scythian) form of the name.
The sixth tribe were the Magi...They were a hereditary caste of priests of the Zurvanism religion that evolved out of Zoroastrianism. The name Magi implies a link with the Sumerians, who called their language Emegir, over time becoming simplified to Magi. Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).

[Peterski]

Of course to Near Easterners.

[Ryuk]

Read about it rather than making up your own claims. Medes spoke an Iranian language otherwise kurdish wouldn't exist. They are the ancestors of the Kurds. Make a simple Google search.

Ancient writers said that Medes and Persian spoke same langage,and Kurdish languages more close to Persian than so called Median language.


Median people spoke the Median language, which was an Old Iranian language. Strabo's Geographica (finished in the early first century) mentions the affinity of Median with other Iranian languages: "The name of Ariana is further extended to a part of Persia and of Media, as also to the Bactrians and Sogdians on the north; for these speak approximately the same language, but with slight variations".[48]


Contemporary linguistic evidence has challenged the previously suggested view that the Kurds are descendants of the Medes.[66][67] Gernot Windfuhr, professor of Iranian Studies, identified the Kurdish languages as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum.[68] David Neil MacKenzie, an authority on the Kurdish language, said Kurdish was closer to Persian and questioned the “traditional” view holding that Kurdish, because of its differences from Persian, should be regarded a Northwestern Iranian language.[69] Garnik Asatrian stated that "The Central Iranian dialects, and primarily those of the Kashan area in the first place, as well as the Azari dialects (otherwise called Southern Tati) are probably the only Iranian dialects, which can pretend to be the direct offshoots of Median... In general, the relationship between Kurdish and Median are not closer than the affinities between the latter and other North Western dialects — Baluchi, Talishi, South Caspian, Zaza, Gurani, etc."[70]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes&ved=2ahUKEwijwaur5tfgAhVt6KYKHZFkAWAQFjARegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw0N9JhwHT9M8IV0rFE-DLnu

[Bandesha]

from paper https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA20120200003_79323951.pdf says Kurds are more related to Assyrian & Jews to start with & later they mixed with Old Iranian from the North. They might be related to the earlier Invaders & proto Uralic substrata tribes like Kassite.

Medes might have been a mixed Saka & Iranic people

the Medes were usually mentioned together with another steppe tribe, the Scythians, who seem to have been the dominant group. They were divided into many districts and towns, under petty local chieftains; from the names in the Assyrian inscriptions, it appears they had already adopted the religion of Zoroaster.

An Assyrian military report from 800 BC lists 28 names of Mede chiefs, but only one of these is positively identified as Iranian. A second report from c. 700 BC lists 26 names; of these, 5 seem to be Iranian, the others are not. These Saka chiefs migrated to India during some wars & mixed with Agriculturalists


Ethno-genetically, it
could be shown, that Kurds derived obviously out of a broader,
pre-IE multi-cultural substratum of the Near East and Eurasia,
and were in early ancient layers predominantly shaped by first
Neolithic Northern Fertile Crescent farmer and shepherd aborigines. Genetically, they seem to be close related to other Near
East and Eurasia substratum aborigines like Jews and Armenians (Nebel et al. & L. Yepiskoposyan). References for the very
historic existence of Kurds and speakers of the “Kurdish Complex” B.C.E, could also been evidenced linguistically, most
notably by leading Iranologist Gernot Windfuhr, who presented



The Six Median Tribes
Herodotus lists the names of six Mede tribes or castes. Some of these are similar to tribal names of the Scythians, suggesting a definitive link between these two groups.
The Busae group is thought to derive from the Persian term buza meaning indigenous (i.e. not Iranian). Whether this was based on an originally Iranian term, or their own name, is unknown.
The second group is called the Paraetaceni, or Parae-tak-(eni) in Persian, and denotes nomadic inhabitants of the mountains of Paraetacene. This name recalls the Scythian Para-la-ti, the people of Kolaxis, believed to represent the common people in general, but whom Herodotus calls the "Royal Scythians".
The third group is called Strukhat.
The fourth group is the Arizanti, whose name is derived from the words Arya (noble), and Zantu (tribe, clan).
The fifth group were the Budii, found also among the Black Sea Scythians as Budi-ni. Buddha was of the tribe Budha, the Saka (eastern Scythian) form of the name.
The sixth tribe were the Magi...They were a hereditary caste of priests of the Zurvanism religion that evolved out of Zoroastrianism. The name Magi implies a link with the Sumerians, who called their language Emegir, over time becoming simplified to Magi. Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).

meds are often tied with jats , The Jat people and Meds have been the oldest inhabitants of Sindh according to the first Persian account of the 11th-century Mujmat ut-Tawarikh (1026), originally an ancient work in Sanskrit, mentions Jats and Meds as the ancient tribe of Sindh and calls them the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah

what you say about this jat of kutch playing beth which is still played in some part of iran


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02vr7slJYo

This video description ,

"Tradition of Bheth came a very long way to enable usto listen to it embodied in person of Mustafa Ali Jat. Bheth was originally the music of Jat Muslims, who brought it from Iran via Pakistan to Kutch region in India. Jat Muslims were maldhari (cattle herders) and their main occupation besides breeding was processing milk and trading its products. Mustafa Ali Jatand his groups are continuing that tradition, but it is the rare style of music they mastered, that makes them exceptional. Theyperform during weddings, funerals and festivals in Gujarat and Bheth compositions are sung autonomously or combinedwithother types of music characteristic for Kutch region"

but when you dig deeper another Persian chronicler Firishta considered Jats of Sind (now a days called lasi baloch ) origin from the far northwest and claimed ancient Garh Gajni (modern Rawalpindi) and Jats were originally living near the river of the Koh-i-Jud (Salt Range) in northwest Punjab. Steppe/Ne euro is not found much in baloch but found in northwest Punjab but jats origin considered in sindh which has caused lot of confusion

[Fibonacci]

meds are often tied with jats , The Jat people and Meds have been the oldest inhabitants of Sindh according to the first Persian account of the 11th-century Mujmat ut-Tawarikh (1026), originally an ancient work in Sanskrit, mentions Jats and Meds as the ancient tribe of Sindh and calls them the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah

what you say about this jat of kutch playing beth which is still played in some part of iran


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02vr7slJYo

This video description ,

"Tradition of Bheth came a very long way to enable usto listen to it embodied in person of Mustafa Ali Jat. Bheth was originally the music of Jat Muslims, who brought it from Iran via Pakistan to Kutch region in India. Jat Muslims were maldhari (cattle herders) and their main occupation besides breeding was processing milk and trading its products. Mustafa Ali Jatand his groups are continuing that tradition, but it is the rare style of music they mastered, that makes them exceptional. Theyperform during weddings, funerals and festivals in Gujarat and Bheth compositions are sung autonomously or combinedwithother types of music characteristic for Kutch region"

but when you dig deeper another Persian chronicler Firishta considered Jats of Sind (now a days called lasi baloch ) origin from the far northwest and claimed ancient Garh Gajni (modern Rawalpindi) and Jats were originally living near the river of the Koh-i-Jud (Salt Range) in northwest Punjab. Steppe/Ne euro is not found much in baloch but found in northwest Punjab but jats origin considered in sindh which has caused lot of confusion

Medes didn't leave the Iranian plateau. Their capital was in western iran. They didn't randomly migrate thousands of kms deep into india. Stop trying so hard to connect 2 different cultures and peoples. It's like comparing apples with oranges. Punjab and jatts are their own people they don't have any connections with anyone outside south Asia. The European ancestry comes from the Indo Europeans.

[Bandesha]

Medes didn't leave the Iranian plateau. Their capital was in western iran. They didn't randomly migrate thousands of kms deep into india. Stop trying so hard to connect 2 different cultures and peoples. It's like comparing apples with oranges. Punjab and jatts are their own people they don't have any connections with anyone outside south Asia. The European ancestry comes from the Indo Europeans.

that's exactly i am trying to say little man that their is big confusion about jatts were originally living near the river of the Koh-i-Jud (Salt Range) in northwest Punjab but their origin is maligned with unrelated groups and tied to sind and balochistan because few jats tribe moved to sind and balochistan (lasi) , still today 3.5% population of balochistan is lasi baloch(ancient jats who migrate from ancient punjab to sind). balochistan meds were ethnically modern baloch and brahuis

ancient sanskrit text say this about balochistan


Balochistan:

Makran & Turan (Southern & Western Baluchistan) was inhabited by ethnic Balochis who were un-orthodox adherents of the Zoroastrian faith brought by their Sassanian overlords [1].

Kalat (Central Balochistan) was inhabited by ethnic Brahuis who were adherents of mixed Zoroastrian and Hindu belief systems and was ruled by the Brahman Dynasty of Sindh[2].

Kaikanan (Northern Balochistan) was inhabited by ethnic Punjabis who practiced Hindusim and were ruled by Punjabi Hindu of the Lasi Jatt clan[3].

Eastern Balochistan was inhabited by ethnic Sindhis who practiced Hinduism and were ruled by the Brahman Dynasty of Sindh[4].

[Negah]

The Persian language didn't originate in Iran. Where do people learn their history? The Persian language was brought into Iran from central Asia by Persian tribes. Iranians were never native to Iran, they migrated there from the north. It was the non-Iranian elamites whom were native to iran

Persian is a SW Iranian language. Persian is an IndoEuropean language but it was developed in SW Iran. That is a fact.

[Negah]

What are you talking about? The Medes are literally known as north western Iranian tribes. Their capital was Ecbatana, which is an Iranian name. They spoke median, classified as a north western Iranian language while Persian was south western. Their descendants are modern day Kurds. The term mede didn't even exist prior to the Iranian migration. Why are you making such bullshit claims? The Medes weren't Assyrian nor did they have anything to do with any Mesopotamians. It is well established that the Medes were Iranic and that their language was an early form of kurdish. If anything, I most likely have median ancestors based on how close their province is to my home town.

Lorestan is the province of Lurs. They speak a sub branch of old Persian. Their language is a more pure form of Persian. They have nothing to do with the Medes nor Kurds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language

Kurds are not neccesalry the continuation of the Medes Where do you get these things.

NW is mainly populated by Azerbaijanis not Kurds.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/media

[Babak]

I never said you were Arabs bro (though your culture and language have a huge amount of Arab influence). I'm speaking from my personal experience of Iranians in Sweden when I say your people have an infuriating tendency to try to ingratiate themselves with westerners and Europeans, claiming you have more in common with them than you do with most middle easterners. Some of you even try to pass yourselves off for Italians or Spanish. Truly disgusting behaviour, if you ask me.

I don't know where you've lived but I assure you, this is quite a common phenomenon among diaspora Iranians.


Iranians almost have nothing in common with arabs except for having common loan words. This shit has to come to an end. With that said, whats wrong with integration? You HAVE to integrate in order to contribute to the growth of the society you are living in.

Many Iranians can pass as Italians tbh with you. Especially northern ones.

[Babak]

Uh, yeah. That's kind of what I said in the comment you quoted. I just want Iranians and other West Asiatics to know that there's no shame in being middle eastern, near eastern, West Asian, Southwest Asian or whichever denomination you prefer. That's why I find it sad that at least most of the Iranians I've met would prefer to be culturally associated with Europeans rather than with their immediate neighbours.

Its because right now, Iranians are sick and tired of their government, which influences the way they think about their neighbors. Islam, for example is usually associated with arabs and Iranians despise Islam, which makes them despise Arabs. Iranians rather be associated (Or do associate in fact), mostly with Turks and azerbaijanis.

[Babak]

Persians are iranic speaker middle easternes:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/06/jewfig2d.png

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-450ac31cbd836ea1b31eec5218b2a358

These are actually Iranian Jews.

This is better:

https://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/metspalu2011pca.png

http://i.imgur.com/Gqo5jBH.jpg

[lameduck]

These are actually Iranian Jews.

This is better:

https://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/metspalu2011pca.png

why many iranians look Indian?

[Babak]

why many iranians look Indian?

Cus Iranians ARE Indian.

[Kamal900]

These are actually Iranian Jews.

This is better:

https://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/metspalu2011pca.png

Welcome back, bro.

[lameduck]

Cus Iranians ARE Indian.

iranians are linguistically closer to Indians than to any kind of arab.

[Babak]

Welcome back, bro.

Thanks man :) good to see you

[Thambi]

iranians are linguistically closer to Indians than to any kind of arab.

Indo Iranian brotherhood bro. From Bangladesh to Turkey. :P