Haplogroup L: The mysterious haplogroup

[Antimatter]

Very few people here belong to haplogroup L. It's very wonderful and somewhat rare in the world. Haplogroup L seems to be diffused mostly around Mountainous or arable lands which may suggest a Neolithic explanation of this haplogroup.

Place of Origin: Western Asia

Phylogeny:
There are different clades of L. L1a, L1b, L1c and L2.

L1a & L1c are mostly confined to Southwestern Asia i.e Indus Valley and Iran. However it was also reported in Germany and Belgium. Likely originated in the Iranian plateau.

L1b is present in the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Europe, it's also present in the Volga region of Russia. Likely originated in the Levant.

L2 (L-L595) is confined to Europe and appears all over Europe from Ireland to Estonia. Likely originated in Anatolia or the Balkans.

If we take a look at the phylogeny of L, and at the age of it's subclades we can see they date somewhere around 12,000-5000 BC, that's when the Neolithic revolution was taking place. So it's likely a Neolithic lineage in Europe, the Caucasus and it might have been the lineage responsible for the construction of the Harappan civilization as well as the rise of the Elamites. We also might speculate this lineage is responsible for Iran_N admixture in modern-day Middle Easterners and Europeans.

[Proto-Shaman]

Mountain dweller men
https://i.imgur.com/4rsFqdk.jpg

[Ülev]

Mountain dweller men
https://i.imgur.com/4rsFqdk.jpg

I like newer map


This is my group:

https://i.imgur.com/HMUUgvg.png

Don't know much about the density of L1b in the Caucasus. But probably, the oldest L so far found is of Maykop origin, hence modern Chechens (L1a) and Dagestanis (L1b) carry the same line 5000 years later.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Don't tease me man, now I know what I'm missing.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

L-M439 any info ?

[Proto-Shaman]

I like newer map
The other map doesn't show %. Only geographic L lineages in a more broad sense. We need new version of the first map I posted.

[Ryuk]

Probably originated in eastern Turkey/Western Iran and later migrated to west and east during Neolithic

[Proto-Shaman]

Probably originated in eastern Turkey/Western Iran and later migrated to west and east during Neolithic
This is also what I think. But this group has no certain ethnocultural definition. This is what makes it so mysterious. It like a shadow of something.

[Proto-Shaman]

Peterski opened a thread 2 years ago: Ancient Hunnic chieftain had Y-DNA haplogroup L (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196245-Ancient-Hunnic-chieftain-had-Y-DNA-haplogroup-L)

This article in Russian, describes Kazakhstan DNA project:

http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-kazahstanskiy-dnk-proekt.html

Among other things, there is an interview with Leyla Jansugurova, head of Institute of General Genetics of Kazakhstan. Here is the slightly edited automatic translation of the part of interview.

She speaks about aDNA (none of these results have been published so far):

(...) Paleogenetics in Kazakhstan

- Did this successful experience of collaborative interdisciplinary research by geneticists and historians continue?

- Yes. Moreover, on the basis of our Institute of General genetics and Cytology in cooperation with the Institute of archaeology named after A. Kh. Margulan in 2014, the laboratory of population genetics was created. Its goal is to study the genetic structure of modern populations of Kazakhstan and determination of genetic relationships with the ancient nomadic tribes of Central Asia. To start we have compiled a directory of ancient human skeletal remains and important archaeological finds in Kazakhstan, related to the ethnogenesis of the Kazakhs and available for paleogenetics research.

- What are the achievements in Kazakhstan paleogenetics?

- I want to note that DNA analysis of bone remains from ancient graves very complicated and expensive method. It requires high tech equipment, supersterility of the experiment and staff development. Therefore, the selection of the bone material is very important. At first, we concentrated on artifacts representing ancient periods of the settlement of the territory of Kazakhstan and available for DNA analysis: it is a human skull from the settlement of Botai in Northern Kazakhstan, the skeleton of the Hun period from the natural history Museum (Budapest) and the remains of the so-called Urdzhar Princess. As you know, in 2014, in Urdzhar district of East Kazakhstan region in one of the kurgans, in a zone of reconstruction of the road Taskesken - Bakta, was found undisturbed burial of women of the Saka period. Under the kurgan in a stone sarcophagus there were remains of a young woman of noble birth. Analysis of ancient DNA showed that the age of burial - III-IV century BC, while mtDNA haplogroup of Urdzhar Princess - D4o. Haplogroup belongs to the “Asian branch”, who left a wide trail in the Eastern Altai, Siberia, the far North of Eurasia and among the indigenous population of America. The mother of the founder of this haplogroup lived between 9300 - 18 400 years ago in Northern Asia.

As for the ancient Hun from Hungary, dated to the middle third of the V century, the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe. And, what is most interesting: the type of the Y-chromosome (L-haplogroup) was found among Kazakh tribe of Argyns!

Exploring the skull from Botai, we found that it was a man, his mtDNA haplogroup is K1b2, which is of Eastern European origin and is very common in the modern population of Western Europe and America.

- Most interesting - his Y chromosome.

- Unfortunately, haplogroup on the Y-chromosome, we did not have time to identify. We ran out of expensive reagents and the money allocated for research. In addition, we have assembled a genetic Bank that represents the current population of Kazakhstan is 1,524 with a detailed ancestry tree(shezhere), so the ethnic picture of the present, we can compare with the ancient finds. This is something we will work on.

[Livin]

Very frenquent among Pontic Greeks,Laz and other black sea people of anatolia.

[Proto-Shaman]

Very frenquent among Pontic Greeks,Laz and other black sea people of anatolia.
Not really. There are only 3 Pontic Greek samples from Trabzon. Most L is found in Afshar Turks and Kartvelian Laz.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1gJLnMN9SjIVga8q_J-94NaSMq0g&hl=en&ll=43.65331621836529%2C44.14647354277395&z=4

https://i.imgur.com/IIxskdf.jpg

[Livin]

Not really. There are only 3 Pontic Greek samples from Trabzon. Most L is found in Afshar Turks and Kartvelian Laz.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1gJLnMN9SjIVga8q_J-94NaSMq0g&hl=en&ll=43.65331621836529%2C44.14647354277395&z=4

https://i.imgur.com/IIxskdf.jpg

You are right.My fault!

It is frenquent among Eastern Trabzon people and to Laz.

Check here if you are not bored.

https://easternblackseadna.blogspot.com/2017/12/y-dna-differences-and-similarities.html


As you can see people in eastern black sea


Its also frenquent among Hemshins.

[dosas]

Very frenquent among Pontic Greeks,Laz and other black sea people of anatolia.

Ancient Colchis haplogroup confirmed!

[tipirneni]

Very few people here belong to haplogroup L. It's very wonderful and somewhat rare in the world. Haplogroup L seems to be diffused mostly around Mountainous or arable lands which may suggest a Neolithic explanation of this haplogroup.

Place of Origin: Western Asia

Phylogeny:
There are different clades of L. L1a, L1b, L1c and L2.

L1a & L1c are mostly confined to Southwestern Asia i.e Indus Valley and Iran. However it was also reported in Germany and Belgium. Likely originated in the Iranian plateau.

L1b is present in the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Europe, it's also present in the Volga region of Russia. Likely originated in the Levant.

L2 (L-L595) is confined to Europe and appears all over Europe from Ireland to Estonia. Likely originated in Anatolia or the Balkans.

If we take a look at the phylogeny of L, and at the age of it's subclades we can see they date somewhere around 12,000-5000 BC, that's when the Neolithic revolution was taking place. So it's likely a Neolithic lineage in Europe, the Caucasus and it might have been the lineage responsible for the construction of the Harappan civilization as well as the rise of the Elamites. We also might speculate this lineage is responsible for Iran_N admixture in modern-day Middle Easterners and Europeans.

L Haplogroup higher presence in Central Asia & also antiquity of finds in Pannonia & Caucasus points to later import into Indus Valley & South India where it is the most in numbers. The earlier agricultural haplogroups like H1 & R2 were already present before L1 people mixed into these communities.

[Proto-Shaman]

Ancient Colchis haplogroup confirmed!
yep, they even made it to north Pakistan mountains and even Alps!

[Livin]

Ancient Colchis haplogroup confirmed!

Yes,and i think some trabzonians with this haplo might be of Laz roots.Lets not forget that some Laz people become christians and assilimated into the rest of Pontic Greek group.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Very few people here belong to haplogroup L. It's very wonderful and somewhat rare in the world. Haplogroup L seems to be diffused mostly around Mountainous or arable lands which may suggest a Neolithic explanation of this haplogroup.

Place of Origin: Western Asia

Phylogeny:
There are different clades of L. L1a, L1b, L1c and L2.

L1a & L1c are mostly confined to Southwestern Asia i.e Indus Valley and Iran. However it was also reported in Germany and Belgium. Likely originated in the Iranian plateau.

L1b is present in the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Europe, it's also present in the Volga region of Russia. Likely originated in the Levant.

L2 (L-L595) is confined to Europe and appears all over Europe from Ireland to Estonia. Likely originated in Anatolia or the Balkans.

If we take a look at the phylogeny of L, and at the age of it's subclades we can see they date somewhere around 12,000-5000 BC, that's when the Neolithic revolution was taking place. So it's likely a Neolithic lineage in Europe, the Caucasus and it might have been the lineage responsible for the construction of the Harappan civilization as well as the rise of the Elamites. We also might speculate this lineage is responsible for Iran_N admixture in modern-day Middle Easterners and Europeans.

Uh l1c and l1b is sub saharan[emoji23]
Edit oh, this is y dna. I nearly had a heart attack

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes,and i think some trabzonians with this haplo might be of Laz roots.Lets not forget that some Laz people become christians and assilimated into the rest of Pontic Greek group.

Pontic Cluster, PH8+

[Proto-Shaman]

Uh l1c and l1b is sub saharan[emoji23]
Not Martian?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Not Martian?No i thought it was about mdtna. I didnt even know there was l1c ydna and l1b ydna.

[digital_noise]

My father in law is L. I dont remember what subclade exactly, will run his raw data through one of the Y predictors later. He's from Iran.

Edit** i found it, he's L-M22 according to 23 and Me

[Proto-Shaman]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33134-Hun-sample-finds-in-Kazakstan?p=495804&viewfull=1#post495804

Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.

Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":

"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."

"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
"

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33134-Hun-sample-finds-in-Kazakstan?p=495858&viewfull=1#post495858

And the majority of the Turks/Huns(and the Turk language) belonged to the Western Eurasian skull type. Another note is the fact that the oldest kurgans are found in the Kura Araxes culture (Urmia region), this burial type is associated with the medieval Huns, which means that the ancestors of the Huns should have came from the Urmia region. As far as we know the Sumerian language is an agglutinative language which is equal to Altaic/Dravidian/Uralic type of languages. The Sumerian language is a non-Indo-European(non-Aryan) and non-Semitic language. The Sumerians are the descendants of the Ubaid culture people, and several archaeological studies have proven that the Ubaid culture people are the same as the Kura Araxes culture people. The Sumerian tribe names like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar" indicate that the language of Kura Araxes - Sumerian people is a Proto Turk language.

[Proto-Shaman]

Just for comparison:
https://i.imgur.com/4rsFqdk.jpg

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Kalasha + Wakhi + Khowar + Burusho (North Pakistan): L1a
https://i.imgur.com/aEVJmgi.png

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Kyrgyz + Wakhi + Chitrali (Afgh./Pak./Taj.): L1a
https://i.imgur.com/Xra1Gou.png

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Brahui + Hazara + Dehwari + Quetta + Yaghri + Baluchi (Central Pakistan): L1a
https://i.imgur.com/dPGDv3E.jpg

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Afshar master race (North Iran): L1b
https://i.imgur.com/X0IECpZ.png

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Laz + Qarapapaq (East Anatolia): L1b
https://i.imgur.com/eBlsV49.png

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afshar master race (Khorasan, East Iran): L1b
https://i.imgur.com/oS93UBJ.png

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afshar master race (South Iran): L1b
https://i.imgur.com/6luQkPu.jpg

[Antimatter]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33134-Hun-sample-finds-in-Kazakstan?p=495804&viewfull=1#post495804


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33134-Hun-sample-finds-in-Kazakstan?p=495858&viewfull=1#post495858

Sumerian is a language isolate, and Sumerian people are West Asians related to modern-day Iraqis and Syrians. L1b likely was born in Mesopotamia/Syria rather than Anatolia.

[Livin]

Summerrians were j1 lineagers. No way L.

This Specific haplo arrived probably with Persians or other Iranian tribes in Black Sea Area. They May assilimated in the kingdom of Pontus.

[Proto-Shaman]

Summerrians were j1 lineagers. No way L.

This Specific haplo arrived probably with Persians or other Iranian tribes in Black Sea Area. They May assilimated in the kingdom of Pontus.

Sumerians could also have been R1b or R1a or Q1b. Keep in mind Marsh Arabs have a lot of Q.

[Dorian]

Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%).[47]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-tmfpgV9mU

[Livin]

Sumerians could also have been R1b or R1a or Q1b. Keep in mind Marsh Arabs have a lot of Q.

Are we sure that modern marsh arabs are ancestors of summerians?Because maybe some Assyrians might have ancestry from them.

IMO Summerians acclimated into the akkadian and later assyrian population.They mixed with other semitic tribes.

[Abdelnour]

I too am of the L Male haplogroup.

[Jaromir]

...

[Kyp]

[QUOTE=Proto-Shaman;5879951]

Afshar master race (North Iran): L1b
https://i.imgur.com/X0IECpZ.png

I'm Afshar from this place (West of Teheran and south of Teheran is the same group). So far in my smaller tribe R1a-Z93 and N were tested.

[Ayetooey]

A cool, unique and interesting haplogroup. Nice to see people around in West-Eurasia who weren't swamped by the R1 Armageddon.

[Jaromir]

but what are they doing in Travv's Komi Republiek

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Distribution_Haplogroup_L_Y-DNA.svg/1200px-Distribution_Haplogroup_L_Y-DNA.svg.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

[Leto]

Jaromir, you are a sock puppet of fucking Ülev, aren't you? Why did you come back after having your entire account deleted? Not gonna lie, I'm not amused! :hrm00000:

[Jaromir]

Jaromir, you are a sock puppet of fucking Ülev, aren't you? Why did you come back after having your entire account deleted? Not gonna lie, I'm not amused! :hrm00000:

You have to live your own life russki

[Leto]

You have to live your own life russki
Said an asshole who couldn't have moved on without TA. Go ahead and change your fucking profile again.

[Jaromir]

Said a asshole who couldn't have moved on without TA. Go ahead and change your fucking profile again.

you've got just earned 100 rubbish rubles

[Hara Pala]

L-FGC51074 (SK1414). L1b2c etc.

[Hara Pala]

Or I should perhaps say L-FGC51040, TMRCA 6,100 ybp. I'm one of the English testers, but grouped with testers from Lebanon, Goa, Gujarat, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. My line in at least two English surname families and probably been around here for at least several centuries. Although no, I don't think its a Neo entry to Europe. Most likely earlier medieval, or possibly Roman.

[Feiichy]

Or I should perhaps say L-FGC51040, TMRCA 6,100 ybp. I'm one of the English testers, but grouped with testers from Lebanon, Goa, Gujarat, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. My line in at least two English surname families and probably been around here for at least several centuries. Although no, I don't think its a Neo entry to Europe. Most likely earlier medieval, or possibly Roman.

Very interesting haplogroup for an Englishman.

[Leto]

L-FGC51074 (SK1414). L1b2c etc.


Or I should perhaps say L-FGC51040, TMRCA 6,100 ybp. I'm one of the English testers, but grouped with testers from Lebanon, Goa, Gujarat, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. My line in at least two English surname families and probably been around here for at least several centuries. Although no, I don't think its a Neo entry to Europe. Most likely earlier medieval, or possibly Roman.
Are you 100% British/Northwestern European autosomally? I remember an Englishman with R1a-Z93 (Asian branch) but L is even more exotic.

[Hara Pala]

I've taken plenty of autosomal DNA tests and to be honest, I've lost faith with them, but none suggest anything Asian or non-European. Ancestry come closest by giving me 79% England & NW Europe' and correctly puts me in East of England, East Anglia, and Norfolk genetic communities. I've spent more than three decades on a genealogy which is pretty well supported now by matching. Based on that I am 97% English and 3% Swiss at Gen 6, mainly East Anglian. Seven out of eight great grandparents were East Anglian and local.

But its a lesson that haplogroups have nothing to do with ethnicity or identity. Just one very narrow line of descent over a long time frame.

[Hara Pala]

I've just surveyed the Y - trees. Lots of the more recent variants are too rare and all over the shot. Too difficult to make any sense of them except to say, lots of individual stories of people moving around Asia and Europe. But if I step back 11,500 years ago to the formation of variant L-SK1414 / L-FGC51074 (TMRCA 9,000 ybp) then I get this bizarre distribution. Remember though, its 9,000 years since common ancestors, and it has since branched off with lots of more recent variants. But of those that we know of, I find them in:

India (Gujarat
India (Goa)
India Parsi
Pakistan (Makran)
Pakistan
Turkmenistan
Tajikistan
Iran 2
Iraq 2
Saudi Arabia 6
UAE
Qatar
Kuwait
Syria 4
Lebanon Druze
Sudan
Turkey 4
Turkey Kurd 3
Cyprus
Azerbaijan
Armenia 4
Russia Tartar 3
Russia other 2
Spain
England 3
France
German
Italy 4
Poland
Portugal 2
Austria 2

So over the past 9000 years or so, that is where we know that that particular variant has gone to. Bloody rare, but when I started this game there were only 3 or 4 of us tested. Where did it originate? All that I dare to suggest is Asia - SW, S, or central. By the way, that variant defines YDNA L1b2c in old nomenclature.

[hazmatnik]

Small contribution, my L matches from 23andme:

L-M22 Turks x 2, Bulgarian

L-M349 Serbs x 2, Romanian

L-L595 Albanian

[Leto]

A Syrian Christian (Antiochian Orthodox) with L-M22
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/1awk76s/antiochian_greek_orthodox_from_syria/