Ancient Sudovian GEDmatch

[Peterski]

Turlojiske3 represents ancient Sudovians (a tribe which lived in North-East Poland and South-West Lithuania):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#9/54.1727/23.2652

He is very similar (>80 similarity) to modern ethnic Poles living in the same region (Suwałki-Augustów area).

Note how this sample neatly differentiates Poles into Northern (>70 similarity) and Southern (>60 similarity):

https://i.imgur.com/5YSefx0.png

^^^ And for comparison, K15 PCA:

67475 SNPs used in this evaluation

Population
North_Sea 14.28 Pct
Atlantic 22.01 Pct
Baltic 37.55 Pct
Eastern_Euro 26.16 Pct
West_Med -
West_Asian -
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

https://i.imgur.com/aybRFGc.png

[Leto]

Are the people in the Warmian-Masurian voivodeship mostly post-WWII descendants?

[Peterski]

Sudovia is not in Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship but in Podlaskie Voivodeship.

(Gołdap, Olecko and Ełk counties were also settled by Sudovians post-WW2)

=====

Edit:

Sudovia = Augustów Governorate of Congress Poland (northern part of earlier Łomża Department / Suwałki Voivodeship):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81om%C5%BCa_Department

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Administrative_divisions_of_Congress_Poland_in_183 0_ENG.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Polska_1907_adm-light-frame.png

[Leto]

Okay, but my question is still open. :)

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

those were Balts, right ?

[Peterski]

Okay, but my question is still open. :)

Mostly yes, but they came from few different regions depending on county.

And for example Olsztyn county has many autochthonous Polish Warmiaks:

https://i.imgur.com/r7tpiZL.png

[Leto]

Mostly yes, but they came from different regions depending on county.
Well, by now they all must have merged into one. In the Pomeranian v. the story is the same?

[Peterski]

Well, by now they all must have merged into one.

Not really, why do you think so?

I was collecting averages for that similarity map and I was only choosing people with all 4 grandparents from one area.


In the Pomeranian v. the story is the same?

No, because this is (core of it) mostly pre-1939 Polish area. Only western and eastern counties are post-WW2 additions.

[Leto]

Not really, why do you think so?
Lol. When people live in the same area and have no boundaries, they tend to mix. And in this case it's the same ethnic group, for heaven's sake! After 70 freaking years of course they mostly have mixed up in the cities and towns.

[Peterski]

Lol. When people live in the same area and have no boundaries, they tend to mix.

They don't live in the same area though, these are different counties.

[Leto]

They don't live in the same area though, these are different counties.
The entire voivodeship is quite small, you can cross it by car in a couple of hours.

[Peterski]

I have one kit with ancestors from: Sokółka county (Grzebienie) and Shchuchyn county (Kamianka).

Do you think this is "mixed" ancestry? I don't think so, I count this guy as a Pole from Podlasie region.

PS: but Sudovia is only the northern part of Podlaskie.

[Leto]

Peterski, you didn't get me. I mean MOST people in that voivodeship are a mix of Poles from different regions, aren't they? I didn't mean any particular samples.

[Peterski]

Peterski, you didn't get me. I mean MOST people in that voivodeship are a mix of Poles from different regions, aren't they? I didn't mean any particular samples.

Which voivodeship are you talking about? Sudovia is part of Podlaskie Voivodeship, not of Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship.

Sudovia = Augustów Governorate of Congress Poland (northern part of earlier Łomża Department / Suwałki Voivodeship):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81om%C5%BCa_Department

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Administrative_divisions_of_Congress_Poland_in_183 0_ENG.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Polska_1907_adm-light-frame.png

[Peterski]

MOST people in that voivodeship are a mix of Poles from different regions, aren't they?

In eastern parts of Warmia-Masuria Voivodeship, most of the population is from Podlaskie/Sudovia:

Gołdap County - 72% of the population is from Sudovia
Olecko County - 76% of the population is from Sudovia
Ełk County - 68% of the population is from Sudovia

^^^ This is based on the 1950 census (map below):

https://i.imgur.com/q2cO6MN.png

And of course in Sudovia (part of Podlaskie) itself, over 90% of the population is local from Sudovia.

[Bosniensis]

Can you share gedmatch id.

[Leto]

In eastern parts of Warmia-Masuria Voivodeship, most of the population is from Podlaskie/Sudovia:

Gołdap County - 72% of the population is from Sudovia
Olecko County - 76% of the population is from Sudovia
Ełk County - 68% of the population is from Sudovia

^^^ This is based on the 1950 census (map below):

https://i.imgur.com/q2cO6MN.png

And of course in Sudovia (part of Podlaskie) itself, over 90% of the population is local from Sudovia.
Interesting map. So in which voivodeships most people would be post WWII settlers?

[Peterski]

You don't get it apparently. In those three counties they are post-WW2 settlers but they came from next-door counties. Not all of them came from far away. In East Prussia they mostly just moved across the border and settled for example 20 kilometers away from their pre-war place of residence. In this case people from Sudovia moved to Gołdap, Ełk and Olecko (next-door areas of East Prussia):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Białystok_Voivodeship_(1919–1939)

[Leto]

You don't get it apparently. In those three counties they are post-WW2 settlers but they came from next-door counties. Not all of them came from far away. In East Prussia they mostly just moved across the border and settled for example 20 kilometers away from their pre-war place of residence. In this case people from Sudovia moved to Gołdap, Ełk and Olecko (next-door areas of East Prussia).
I got it. I mean all voivodeships, not just that one.

[Peterski]

In West Pomeranian, Lubuskie and Lower Silesian.

Around half of inhabitants there are Poles deported from Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania after WW2, and the other half is a mix of various regions.

[Leto]

In West Pomeranian, Lubuskie and Lower Silesian.

Around half of inhabitants there are Poles deported from Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania after WW2, and the other half is a mix of various regions.
Opole and Pomerania are also largely mixed?

[Peterski]

Opole and Pomerania are also largely mixed?

Pie charts show % of origin in each area (A to K). For example in area C ca. 3/4 of the population is from Podlasie & Sudovia (pink):

https://i.imgur.com/kNeBd08.png
^^^ Below for comparison how many people report Kresy (former eastern Polish lands: green in the map above) origin in 2012:

https://i.imgur.com/nijxyZJ.png

Edit:

Stalin's experiment for a Multicultural Mix, lol.

[Leto]

Stalin's experiment for a Multicultural Mix, lol.
Actually the opposite - monocultural. Poles 'back' to Poland, Ukrainians to Ukraine.

Looks like the notion of 'Nordic Northern Poles' is almost false - those regions received a lot of Southern and Eastern Poles according to the map.

[Peterski]

Actually the opposite - monocultural.

Poles from different regions had some cultural differences between them, though.

They emerged due to different history of each region.

And he mixed people from all regions together and forced them to be neighbours.

Also for example he dispersed urban populations (Poles from Lwów, Wilno, etc.) and settled cities with peasants.

[Peterski]

Poles from Lwów and Wilno were dispersed throughout all of Poland (he did not resettle them all to one place):

https://i.imgur.com/8PDIaW1.png

[Leto]

Poles from different regions had some cultural differences between them, though.

They emerged due to different history of each region.

And he mixed people from all regions together and forced them to be neighbours.
Well, although that bastard really did do a lot of damage to all of us, most of migration and mixing in the 20th cent was the result of urbanization and industrialization. Also, many places were destroyed, a lot of people died, someone had to re-build the country.

[Leto]

Actually the opposite - monocultural. Poles 'back' to Poland, Ukrainians to Ukraine.
Sorry, I should've said - Germans to Germany, Poles to Poland.

[Peterski]

Poles 'back' to Poland

"Back" after 600 years (1340-1945). :lol:

That would be like moving all whites from the Americas back to Europe.


although that bastard really did do a lot of damage to all of us, most of migration and mixing in the 20th cent was the result of urbanization and industrialization. Also, many places were destroyed, a lot of people died, someone had to re-build the country.

I agree. Before industrialization and urbanization, people tended to be less mobile.


Sorry, I should've said - Germans to Germany, Poles to Poland.

Yeah he probably prevented separatist movements by deporting minorities.

In Italy for example there is separatism in German-majority inhabited regions:

https://lana.suedtiroler-freiheit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/S%C3%BCdtirol_ist_nicht_Italien.jpg

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Yeah he probably prevented separatist movements by deporting minorities.

In Italy for example there is separatism in German-majority inhabited regions:

https://lana.suedtiroler-freiheit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/S%C3%BCdtirol_ist_nicht_Italien.jpg

Ofcourse there is, Italy was gifted with this German majority region for their treason to their allies in WW1 and switching to winning side. There is no any moral rule that should keep that region in Italy, it was pure victor's might. I support even terrorism in South Tyrol, they have every right to do so.

[Peterski]

Of course there is

Yeah there are many separatist movements in Western Europe.

Western Europe needs a genius like Stalin who will relocate ethnic groups to prevent any overlap between their "living spaces". :D

BTW:

AFAIK, in Croatia and Bosnia many formerly Serbian-inhabited regions were ethnically cleansed during the war of the 1990s.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

AFAIK, in Croatia and Bosnia many formerly Serbian-inhabited regions were ethnically cleansed during the war of the 1990s.

In Croatia Croatian majority-regions were ethnically cleansed, not Serbian. In BiH mostly muslim regions.

[Peterski]

Sudovia (a.k.a. Yotvingia):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3A6_bhkWxw

Original Baltic Prussians before the crusade were divided into these 12 tribes:

https://i.imgur.com/VDnFAH2.png

Sudovia is separated from East Prussia by Romnicka Forest (Rominter Heide):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romincka_Forest

=====

Historical Sudovia / Yotvingia is now split between Lithuania and Poland.

Before WW1 all of it was part of Congress Poland (Suwałki Governorate):

http://stephendanko.com/blog/

Map: http://stephendanko.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/MAP-Poland-1915-Reduced.jpg

http://stephendanko.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/MAP-Poland-1915-Reduced.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uDdmHt1.png