reason for Steppe DNA in Tajiks despite low R1a is ANE?

[Proto-Shaman]

I always see Pomiri Tajiks on steppe gedmatch kits (single + 2 pops.). But why?

could ANE be the answer? mmmhhhhhhh.....
https://i0.wp.com/s014.radikal.ru/i329/1512/f3/630c469b270e.png

mmmhhhhhh........

[Leto]

R1a is the single most common Y hg among the Tajiks and it comes from the steppe, nothing mysterious.
See this one (not R1a but autosomally a lot of steppe ancestry):
Aryan Afghan GEDmatch Results (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?236279-Aryan-Afghan-GEDmatch-Results)

[Token]

Tajiks have extremely high steppe admixture, as high as Central Europeans.

[Leto]

Tajiks have extremely high steppe admixture, as high as Central Europeans.
Um, not as high. At least not the regular Tajiks (lowland Persian speakers). They get 15-20% North European only.

[Token]

Um, not as high. At least not the regular Tajiks (lowland Persian speakers). They get 15-20% North European only.
No GEDmatch calculator can accurately measure steppe admixture, the components are all based on 'imaginary' populations. A huge portion of the steppe ancestry will be hidden in 'Gedrosia', or 'West Asian'.

[Leto]

No GEDmatch calculator can accurately measure steppe admixture, the components are all based on 'imaginary' populations. A huge portion of the steppe ancestry will be hidden in 'Gedrosia', or 'West Asian'.
Okay, but I'd still like to add that "race forums" tend to whitewash the Tajiks a lot. Some people who have never seen them IRL believe they're almost Nordic which is certainly not true. The vast majority are dark-skinned, some as dark as Pakis and Nepalese and many of them have obvious East Eurasian features.

[Proto-Shaman]

Okay, but I'd still like to add that "race forums" tend to whitewash the Tajiks a lot. Some people who have never seen them IRL believe they're almost Nordic which is certainly not true. The vast majority are dark-skinned, some as dark as Pakis and Nepalese and many of them have obvious East Eurasian features.
What crowls my mind is that "No features uniting the Pamir languages as a single subgroup of Iranian have been demonstrated."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_languages#Classification

But, gedmatch calcs say that Mountain Tajiks must have been in the steppes for almost always.

[Arhat]

Okay, but I'd still like to add that "race forums" tend to whitewash the Tajiks a lot. Some people who have never seen them IRL believe they're almost Nordic which is certainly not true. The vast majority are dark-skinned, some as dark as Pakis and Nepalese and many of them have obvious East Eurasian features.

Yeah most Tajiks you see in Russia are very turkic+Persian/West Asian mixed and from the lowland. Originally Arabs in Central Asia were called Tajiks by pagan Iranics. Tajik was an arab tribe as far as i know. Later sedentary persian-speaking Iranics who converted to Islam were also called Tajiks because they took the religion of "Tajiks" . Pamiri are not Tajiks and get to often confused with them. They don't spoke persian like Tajiks and lack much of the extra West Asian and extra turkic admixture that is why they have so much steppe ancestry unlike lowland Tajiks.

Pamiri languages are closer to Pashto and they are pretty much a direct mix of BMAC and Andronovo. Probably around 60% BMAC and 40% Andronovo

[Blondie]

Tajiks are turkicized iranic tribes.

[Crimson Winds]

Tajiks are turkicized iranic tribes.

Persianate East-Iranians with a Turkic mix.

[Blondie]

Persianate East-Iranians with a Turkic mix.

Yes, fortunatelly they didn't lose their iranic language.

[Proto-Shaman]

Tajiks are turkicized iranic tribes.
Pamiri Tajik is not the same as Farsi Tajik. Pamiris are related to East Iranian Pashto tribes! Both, Pashtuns and "Pomiris" pop up in every steppe sample.

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes, fortunatelly they didn't lose their iranic language.
Because they preserved it since BMAC times! The isolation in the mountains did the rest! Pamiri dialects have that special Turko-Iran touch.

[Arhat]

Yes, fortunatelly they didn't lose their iranic language.

Actually they only became Persian-speaking after Islam arrived there. In the eastern Islamic world persian-speaking people spread the Islamic religion. Ironically Persian culture was very much spread by Muslims into Central and South Asia. The native languages of lowland Tajikistan were Bactrian and Sogdian. Bactrian died out and Sogdian is only spoken by few Yaghnobi people. Yaghnobi people are also very steppe shifted but unlike Pamiri they are from the lowland.

[Borealis]

Steppe ancestry is not perfectly correlated with R1a

[Leto]

Yeah most Tajiks you see in Russia are very turkic+Persian/West Asian mixed and from the lowland. Originally Arabs in Central Asia were called Tajiks by pagan Iranics. Tajik was an arab tribe as far as i know. Later sedentary persian-speaking Iranics who converted to Islam were also called Tajiks because they took the religion of "Tajiks" . Pamiri are not Tajiks and get to often confused with them. They don't spoke persian like Tajiks and lack much of the extra West Asian and extra turkic admixture that is why they have so much steppe ancestry unlike lowland Tajiks.

Pamiri languages are closer to Pashto and they are pretty much a direct mix of BMAC and Andronovo. Probably around 60% BMAC and 40% Andronovo
Don't they also have more recent Scythian ancestry?

[Proto-Shaman]

Don't they also have more recent Scythian ancestry?
Tajiks have "mostly" matches on Sarmatian samples from the western steppes. This means that Tajiks were included in the western steppe ethnogenesis at least since the bronze age. It is said Mountain Tajiks are of Wusun-Saka origin (mixed ethnic background). This would explain the Iranian substrate among Volga Turkics. Maybe that's the reason why this so called Pamirid racial type is very often seen from Anatolian highlands (both Iranian and Turkic) to the mountainous plains of central Asia, all the way to the Tarim Basin to the Uyghurs. This is at least Aurel Stein's elaboration.

[Arhat]

Don't they also have more recent Scythian ancestry?

To some extent yes and that is the reason why they have more East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry. But Scythians in Central Asia were already very much mixed with BMAC so scythian ancestry was very Pamiri-like in Central Asia. Scythians were genetically very diverse. Genetically they could resemble anything from North Europeans to Siberians. Some of them around Moldava and Ukraine even resembled Paleo-Balkanites or Northwest Europeans/Celts.


That are the gedmatch results of Wusun people (Saka in West China). They were 75% Pamiri-like + 25% NE Euro-like. The gedmatch number is Z698544

# Population Percent
1 NE_European 36.03
2 Caucasian 33.13
3 Siberian 8.05
4 S_Indian 7.82
5 Mediterranean 7.47
6 E_Asian 2.85
7 Amerindian 2.39
8 Beringian 2.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 Tadjik 17.13
2 Nogai 22.08
3 Chechen 23.13
4 Pashtun 23.18
5 Turkmen 23.63
6 Bashkir 23.94
7 Lezgin 25.31
8 Uzbek 25.74
9 Kumyk 26.42
10 Balkar 27.76
11 Bosnian 27.8
12 Chuvash 29.05
13 North_Ossetian 29.9
14 Macedonian 30.17
15 Serbian 30.61
16 Pathan 30.63
17 Greek_Central 30.95
18 Greek_Thessaly 31.19
19 Croatian 31.53
20 Bulgarian 31.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.5% Tadjik + 29.5% Karelian @ 6.6
2 71.5% Tadjik + 28.5% Finnish @ 6.69
3 70.6% Tadjik + 29.4% Russian @ 6.77
4 73.4% Tadjik + 26.6% Lithuanian @ 6.98
5 70.8% Tadjik + 29.2% Mordovian @ 7.09
6 56.6% Chuvash + 43.4% Balochi @ 7.21
7 72% Tadjik + 28% Belarusian @ 7.27
8 64.6% Tadjik + 35.4% Chuvash @ 7.47
9 57% Chuvash + 43% Brahui @ 7.58
10 56.8% Chuvash + 43.2% Makrani @ 7.76
11 53.8% Lezgin + 46.2% Chuvash @ 7.92
12 50.7% Balochi + 49.3% Karelian @ 8.47
13 72.1% Tadjik + 27.9% Polish @ 8.48
14 50.5% Makrani + 49.5% Karelian @ 8.6
15 50.6% Balochi + 49.4% Russian @ 8.63
16 51.7% Balochi + 48.3% Finnish @ 8.68
17 50.3% Brahui + 49.7% Karelian @ 8.79
18 56.4% Chechen + 43.6% Chuvash @ 8.84
19 50.5% Makrani + 49.5% Russian @ 8.91
20 51.6% Makrani + 48.4% Finnish @ 8.93

[Arhat]

Tajiks have "mostly" matches on Sarmatian samples from the western steppes. This means that Tajiks were included in the western steppe ethnogenesis at least since the bronze age. It is said Mountain Tajiks are of Wusun-Saka origin (mixed ethnic background). This would explain the Iranian substrate among Volga Turkics. Maybe that's the reason why this so called Pamirid racial type is very often seen from Anatolian highlands (both Iranian and Turkic) to the mountainous plains of central Asia, all the way to the Tarim Basin to the Uyghurs. This is at least Aurel Stein's elaboration.

Tatars in Russia and to a lesser extent other Pre-Slavic Volga populations have some BMAC-related ancestry which probably was brought by Iranic back-migrations from Central Asia.

[Mingle]

To some extent yes and that is the reason why they have more East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry. But Scythians in Central Asia were already very much mixed with BMAC so scythian ancestry was very Pamiri-like in Central Asia. Scythians were genetically very diverse. Genetically they could resemble anything from North Europeans to Siberians. Some of them around Moldava and Ukraine even resembled Paleo-Balkanites or Northwest Europeans/Celts.


That are the gedmatch results of Wusun people (Saka in West China). They were 75% Pamiri-like + 25% NE Euro-like. The gedmatch number is Z698544

# Population Percent
1 NE_European 36.03
2 Caucasian 33.13
3 Siberian 8.05
4 S_Indian 7.82
5 Mediterranean 7.47
6 E_Asian 2.85
7 Amerindian 2.39
8 Beringian 2.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 Tadjik 17.13
2 Nogai 22.08
3 Chechen 23.13
4 Pashtun 23.18
5 Turkmen 23.63
6 Bashkir 23.94
7 Lezgin 25.31
8 Uzbek 25.74
9 Kumyk 26.42
10 Balkar 27.76
11 Bosnian 27.8
12 Chuvash 29.05
13 North_Ossetian 29.9
14 Macedonian 30.17
15 Serbian 30.61
16 Pathan 30.63
17 Greek_Central 30.95
18 Greek_Thessaly 31.19
19 Croatian 31.53
20 Bulgarian 31.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.5% Tadjik + 29.5% Karelian @ 6.6
2 71.5% Tadjik + 28.5% Finnish @ 6.69
3 70.6% Tadjik + 29.4% Russian @ 6.77
4 73.4% Tadjik + 26.6% Lithuanian @ 6.98
5 70.8% Tadjik + 29.2% Mordovian @ 7.09
6 56.6% Chuvash + 43.4% Balochi @ 7.21
7 72% Tadjik + 28% Belarusian @ 7.27
8 64.6% Tadjik + 35.4% Chuvash @ 7.47
9 57% Chuvash + 43% Brahui @ 7.58
10 56.8% Chuvash + 43.2% Makrani @ 7.76
11 53.8% Lezgin + 46.2% Chuvash @ 7.92
12 50.7% Balochi + 49.3% Karelian @ 8.47
13 72.1% Tadjik + 27.9% Polish @ 8.48
14 50.5% Makrani + 49.5% Karelian @ 8.6
15 50.6% Balochi + 49.4% Russian @ 8.63
16 51.7% Balochi + 48.3% Finnish @ 8.68
17 50.3% Brahui + 49.7% Karelian @ 8.79
18 56.4% Chechen + 43.6% Chuvash @ 8.84
19 50.5% Makrani + 49.5% Russian @ 8.91
20 51.6% Makrani + 48.4% Finnish @ 8.93

What calc is that?

[Leto]

Pamiri languages are closer to Pashto and they are pretty much a direct mix of BMAC and Andronovo. Probably around 60% BMAC and 40% Andronovo
But aren't Pashtuns partially Indus Valley people? I mean Pathans live exactly where the IV civilization once was thriving.

[Arhat]

What calc is that?

puntDNAL K15 but this calculator has a "calculator effect" it seems. But other calculators show more or less the same

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 24.01
2 Steppe 21.75
3 Indian 19.14
4 NorthEastEuropean 15.59
5 Siberian 6.20
6 Amerindian 4.92
7 Neolithic 4.61
8 Arctic 3.13


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Shugnan_Badachshan @ 12.167324
2 Rushanvanch_Gorno-Badakhshan @ 13.174589
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Tajikistan @ 13.227617
4 Tajik_Tajikistan @ 14.029663
5 Ishkasim_Gorno-Badakhshan @ 14.960321
6 Yaghnobi_Zarafshan @ 15.990894
7 Tajik_Lowland_Tajikistan @ 17.072510
8 Pashtun_Afghanistan @ 20.345665
9 Tajiks_Afghanistan @ 20.486677
10 Uzbek_Afghanistan @ 20.935961
11 Turkmens_Turkmenistan @ 21.179083
12 Avar_Dagestan @ 21.664648
13 Dargin_Urkarah @ 21.722040
14 Turkmen_Afghanistan @ 21.779413
15 Avar_Dagestan_Gergebil @ 21.894438
16 Ava_Dagestan_Khunzakh @ 21.934010
17 Mishar-Tatar_Mordovia @ 21.996632
18 Udmurd_Udmurtia @ 22.226143
19 Roma_Gypsy @ 22.380060
20 Kumyk_Stalskoe @ 22.626947

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Tajik_Pomiri_Tajikistan +50% Udmurd_Udmurtia @ 8.145787


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Shugnan_Badachshan +25% Shugnan_Badachshan +25% Udmurd_Udmurtia @ 6.780489


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
1 Ava_Dagestan_Khunzakh + Pathan_Punjab + Udmurd_Udmurtia + Udmurd_Udmurtia @ 6.763910
2 Finn_EastFinland + Shugnan_Badachshan + Shugnan_Badachshan + Shugnan_Badachshan @ 6.767230
3 Shugnan_Badachshan + Shugnan_Badachshan + Shugnan_Badachshan + Udmurd_Udmurtia @ 6.780489

[Arhat]

But aren't Pashtuns partially Indus Valley people? I mean Pathans live exactly where the IV civilization once was thriving.


Depending on which Pashtuns. Northern Pashtuns are a mix of a Udegram-like(IVC/steppe mix)+ BMAC+ additional Sintashta-like ancestry. They are clustering with Kalash and Dardics. Mingle for example is one of them. Southern Pashtuns are mainly BMAC/Gedrosia+ additional Sintashta-like ancestry and have much less Udegram-like ancestry. They are rather between steppe-shifted Pamiri and pre-steppe shifted Baluch.

[Borealis]

Depending on which Pashtuns. Northern Pashtuns are a mix of a Udegram-like(IVC/steppe mix)+ BMAC+ additional Sintashta-like ancestry. They are clustering with Kalash and Dardics. Mingle for example is one of them. Southern Pashtuns are mainly BMAC/Gedrosia+ additional Sintashta-like ancestry and have much less Udegram-like ancestry. They are rather between steppe-shifted Pamiri and pre-steppe shifted Baluch.

I noticed the same thing, the southerns are between baloch and Tajiks

[Leto]

Depending on which Pashtuns. Northern Pashtuns are a mix of a Udegram-like(IVC/steppe mix)+ BMAC+ additional Sintashta-like ancestry. They are clustering with Kalash and Dardics. Mingle for example is one of them. Southern Pashtuns are mainly BMAC/Gedrosia+ additional Sintashta-like ancestry and have much less Udegram-like ancestry. They are rather between steppe-shifted Pamiri and pre-steppe shifted Baluch.
So basically the South of this green region?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Major_ethnic_groups_of_Pakistan_in_1980_borders_re moved.jpg/620px-Major_ethnic_groups_of_Pakistan_in_1980_borders_re moved.jpg
Usually it's the more southern, the swarthier. :)

[Arhat]

So basically the South of this green region?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Major_ethnic_groups_of_Pakistan_in_1980_borders_re moved.jpg/620px-Major_ethnic_groups_of_Pakistan_in_1980_borders_re moved.jpg
Usually it's the more southern, the swarthier. :)

Not exactly. Southern Pashtuns are mainly belonging to the Durrani and Ghilzai tribe. They extend from Herat to the Suleiman Mountains and Kabul. Everything east of Kabul and northeast of the Suleiman Mountains is inhabited by tribes which are more Dardic-shifted. So Pashtuns from Quetta or Kandahar are actually less South Asian-shifted then Pashtuns from Peshawar despite living much more in the south but Southern Pashtunistan is separated from India by mountain ranges and desert-like regions. Also northern Pashtunistan had prior to Islam and Pashtuns a high developed Indo-Aryan urban civilisation ( Gandhara).

[Mingle]

Not exactly. Southern Pashtuns are mainly belonging to the Durrani and Ghilzai tribe. They extend from Herat to the Suleiman Mountains and Kabul. Everything east of Kabul and northeast of the Suleiman Mountains is inhabited by tribes which are more Dardic-shifted. So Pashtuns from Quetta or Kandahar are actually less South Asian-shifted then Pashtuns from Peshawar despite living much more in the south but Southern Pashtunistan is separated from India by mountain ranges and desert-like regions. Also northern Pashtunistan had prior to Islam and Pashtuns a high developed Indo-Aryan urban civilisation ( Gandhara).

There was Iranic migration/settlement in modern day northern Pashtunistan that predates Islam and Pashtuns in the region. The Gandharis disappeared long before Pashtuns took hold of that region. The Iranic Paktyans and Arachosians (who may have been the same people) were the majority there before Pashtuns but after Gandharis. Also, its not clear which areas of Pashtunistan the Gandharis controlled and just inhabited. Just cause the Gandharis controlled XYZ doesn't mean they lived in all of that territory. The Gandharis are considered distinct from Dardics and some northern fringes of northern Pashtunistan (mainly Swat and N2KL) have Dardic speakers there that predate Pashtuns and Gandharis are too often confused with Dards when discussing the Indic aspect of that region. Then there are also the Hindu Kabul Shahis who people forget about who were Brahmins that weren't native(?) to the region but had a significant role in the region's history.

BTW, there's a province in northern Pashtunistan (Logar) where the people are genetically southern Pashtun since they're mostly Ghiljis. Also, northern Pashtuns have some differences between themselves and Chitralis/Kalashas. The latter get notably more Gedrosia (Baloch) and a bit less NE Euro. On HW, the spreadsheet Kalash is ~43% Baloch and ~11% NE Euro whereas I'm ~37% Baloch and ~14% NE Euro. IIRC, the Khos (majority ethnicity in Chitral that contains a lot of assimilated Kalashas) are a bit more NE Euro than us. Is the elevated Gedrosia among western Dards (non-Kashmiri Dards) an Udegram-related component?

[Cumansky]

Puntdnal K12 Modern

Cumansky
10% Tajik_Pomiri

Puntdnal K13

Cumansky Uncle
11.9% Tadjik

We don't have any Romani lineage

[Arhat]

There was Iranic migration/settlement in modern day northern Pashtunistan that predates Islam and Pashtuns in the region. The Gandharis disappeared long before Pashtuns took hold of that region. The Iranic Paktyans and Arachosians (who may have been the same people) were the majority there before Pashtuns but after Gandharis. Also, its not clear which areas of Pashtunistan the Gandharis controlled and just inhabited. Just cause the Gandharis controlled XYZ doesn't mean they lived in all of that territory. The Gandharis are considered distinct from Dardics and some northern fringes of northern Pashtunistan (mainly Swat and N2KL) have Dardic speakers there that predate Pashtuns and Gandharis are too often confused with Dards when discussing the Indic aspect of that region. Then there are also the Hindu Kabul Shahis who people forget about who were Brahmins that weren't native(?) to the region but had a significant role in the region's history.

BTW, there's a province in northern Pashtunistan (Logar) where the people are genetically southern Pashtun since they're mostly Ghiljis. Also, northern Pashtuns have some differences between themselves and Chitralis/Kalashas. The latter get notably more Gedrosia (Baloch) and a bit less NE Euro. On HW, the spreadsheet Kalash is ~43% Baloch and ~11% NE Euro whereas I'm ~37% Baloch and ~14% NE Euro. IIRC, the Khos (majority ethnicity in Chitral that contains a lot of assimilated Kalashas) are a bit more NE Euro than us. Is the elevated Gedrosia among western Dards (non-Kashmiri Dards) an Udegram-related component?

I would include Logar into "South Pashtunistan". People in Logar were most likely already Iranic prior to Pashtuns and the Logar region was actually already mentioned in the Avesta(Caxra). Recent dardic + ancient Gandhari influences only get significant east of Kabul.

[Arhat]

There was Iranic migration/settlement in modern day northern Pashtunistan that predates Islam and Pashtuns in the region. The Gandharis disappeared long before Pashtuns took hold of that region. The Iranic Paktyans and Arachosians (who may have been the same people) were the majority there before Pashtuns but after Gandharis. Also, its not clear which areas of Pashtunistan the Gandharis controlled and just inhabited. Just cause the Gandharis controlled XYZ doesn't mean they lived in all of that territory. The Gandharis are considered distinct from Dardics and some northern fringes of northern Pashtunistan (mainly Swat and N2KL) have Dardic speakers there that predate Pashtuns and Gandharis are too often confused with Dards when discussing the Indic aspect of that region. Then there are also the Hindu Kabul Shahis who people forget about who were Brahmins that weren't native(?) to the region but had a significant role in the region's history.

BTW, there's a province in northern Pashtunistan (Logar) where the people are genetically southern Pashtun since they're mostly Ghiljis. Also, northern Pashtuns have some differences between themselves and Chitralis/Kalashas. The latter get notably more Gedrosia (Baloch) and a bit less NE Euro. On HW, the spreadsheet Kalash is ~43% Baloch and ~11% NE Euro whereas I'm ~37% Baloch and ~14% NE Euro. IIRC, the Khos (majority ethnicity in Chitral that contains a lot of assimilated Kalashas) are a bit more NE Euro than us. Is the elevated Gedrosia among western Dards (non-Kashmiri Dards) an Udegram-related component?
What is your opinion about ancient Kamboja and their connection to Pashtuns? They were equestrian/warlike Indo-Iranians similar to Proto-Pashtuns and lived in the East Iranian-Indo-Aryan frontier zone just like Pashtuns later

[Borealis]

Not exactly. Southern Pashtuns are mainly belonging to the Durrani and Ghilzai tribe. They extend from Herat to the Suleiman Mountains and Kabul. Everything east of Kabul and northeast of the Suleiman Mountains is inhabited by tribes which are more Dardic-shifted. So Pashtuns from Quetta or Kandahar are actually less South Asian-shifted then Pashtuns from Peshawar despite living much more in the south but Southern Pashtunistan is separated from India by mountain ranges and desert-like regions. Also northern Pashtunistan had prior to Islam and Pashtuns a high developed Indo-Aryan urban civilisation ( Gandhara).

What also might be worth pointing out is that the southern Pashtuns are located further west than northern Pashtuns. Quetta and Qandahar are clearly west of Peshawar and FATA. In South Asia there is a west-vs. east split as well as a north and south one, and people located west tend to be less S. Asian shifted than their eastern counterparts.

[Impaler]

Puntdnal K12 Modern

Cumansky
10% Tajik_Pomiri

Puntdnal K13

Cumansky Uncle
11.9% Tadjik

We don't have any Romani lineage

Interesting. I have plenty of Tajik + Afghan_Uzbeki mixed populations on each calculator. :icon_biggrin:

[Borealis]

There was Iranic migration/settlement in modern day northern Pashtunistan that predates Islam and Pashtuns in the region. The Gandharis disappeared long before Pashtuns took hold of that region. The Iranic Paktyans and Arachosians (who may have been the same people) were the majority there before Pashtuns but after Gandharis. Also, its not clear which areas of Pashtunistan the Gandharis controlled and just inhabited. Just cause the Gandharis controlled XYZ doesn't mean they lived in all of that territory. The Gandharis are considered distinct from Dardics and some northern fringes of northern Pashtunistan (mainly Swat and N2KL) have Dardic speakers there that predate Pashtuns and Gandharis are too often confused with Dards when discussing the Indic aspect of that region. Then there are also the Hindu Kabul Shahis who people forget about who were Brahmins that weren't native(?) to the region but had a significant role in the region's history.

BTW, there's a province in northern Pashtunistan (Logar) where the people are genetically southern Pashtun since they're mostly Ghiljis. Also, northern Pashtuns have some differences between themselves and Chitralis/Kalashas. The latter get notably more Gedrosia (Baloch) and a bit less NE Euro. On HW, the spreadsheet Kalash is ~43% Baloch and ~11% NE Euro whereas I'm ~37% Baloch and ~14% NE Euro. IIRC, the Khos (majority ethnicity in Chitral that contains a lot of assimilated Kalashas) are a bit more NE Euro than us. Is the elevated Gedrosia among western Dards (non-Kashmiri Dards) an Udegram-related component?

Yes, that appears to be the case. Baloch component seems to be more connected to IVC rather than BMAC because populations with low BMAC still end up with high Baloch.

[Mingle]

What is your opinion about ancient Kamboja and their connection to Pashtuns? They were equestrian/warlike Indo-Iranians similar to Proto-Pashtuns and lived in the East Iranian-Indo-Aryan frontier zone just like Pashtuns later

From what I heard, the term Kamboja was a generic Indic word for people to the west that they considered "foreigners". But I haven't read up on the subject properly Not sure if it was a proper tribe or a catch-all word. Then these people later either migrated to India or got assimilated into the ethnicity that would later become Afghan/Pashtun. Since they lived in the same region, there's probably a connection between them and Pashtuns but I don't think that these guys specifically were Proto-Pashtuns. Also, isn't there a tribe in India today with a name that sounds similar to "Kamboja"?

Do you think that the word Kapisa is etymologically related to the word Kamboja as mentioned on this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Kapisa) page? If it's true, then I guess it was based off the name of a Dardic tribe and that they were to Indians what the Macedonians and Epirotes were to the Ancient Greeks i.e. a tribe that they distinguished as "other" due to being more culturally backwards despite being part of the same ethnolinguistic group. Also, the term may have originally been in reference to a particular people but then later referred to everyone in that region.

What do you think is the northern limit for where Indic (Dardic/Gandhari) influences diminish? Would you say Panjsheri Tajiks are part of the same cluster as northern Pashtuns?

[Cumansky]

Interesting. I have plenty of Tajik + Afghan_Uzbeki mixed populations on each calculator. :icon_biggrin:

Yes you have from what I saw, little bit more than my uncle

I will soon DNA test my father

[Mingle]

Yes, that appears to be the case. Baloch component seems to be more connected to IVC rather than BMAC because populations with low BMAC still end up with high Baloch.

What were BMACs like genetically? Which population does their DNA peak in?

[Borealis]

What were BMACs like genetically? Which population does their DNA peak in?

They were mainly Iranian neolithic/CHG with some Anatolian farmer-like ancestry, and some Siberian HGs as well I believe. I am not sure about who it peaks in but I'd guess southern Pashtuns have the highest, after Baloch. I don't know actually, it can be hard to separate BMAC from other Iranian neolithic ancestry

[Arhat]

From what I heard, the term Kamboja was a generic Indic word for people to the west that they considered "foreigners". But I haven't read up on the subject properly Not sure if it was a proper tribe or a catch-all word. Then these people later either migrated to India or got assimilated into the ethnicity that would later become Afghan/Pashtun. Since they lived in the same region, there's probably a connection between them and Pashtuns but I don't think that these guys specifically were Proto-Pashtuns. Also, isn't there a tribe in India today with a name that sounds similar to "Kamboja"?

Do you think that the word Kapisa is etymologically related to the word Kamboja as mentioned on this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Kapisa) page? If it's true, then I guess it was based off the name of a Dardic tribe and that they were to Indians what the Macedonians and Epirotes were to the Ancient Greeks i.e. a tribe that they distinguished as "other" due to being more culturally backwards despite being part of the same ethnolinguistic group. Also, the term may have originally been in reference to a particular people but then later referred to everyone in that region.

What do you think is the northern limit for where Indic (Dardic/Gandhari) influences diminish? Would you say Panjsheri Tajiks are part of the same cluster as northern Pashtuns?

As far as i remember Panjhiri are quite close to Pamiri just more South Asian shifted. So they are rather belonging to the Pamiri cluster.

I tend to think the same about Kamboja. They probably were depending on the timeframe and location of various origin (Iranic, Nuristani, Dard). Many just stereotypically assume that only Iranics were warlike/equestrian. Interestingly the modern day ethnonym Afghan is derived from the term Asvaka (horse people) which was used for Kamboja by Indo-Aryans. Later it was used for early Pashtuns because they interacted with Indo-Aryans in a similar way and had a similar culture.

[Mingle]

They were mainly Iranian neolithic/CHG with some Anatolian farmer-like ancestry, and some Siberian HGs as well I believe. I am not sure about who it peaks in but I'd guess southern Pashtuns have the highest, after Baloch. I don't know actually, it can be hard to separate BMAC from other Iranian neolithic ancestry

Seems very similar to IVC then. Maybe they were connected somehow?


As far as i remember Panjhiri are quite close to Pamiri just more South Asian shifted. So they are rather belonging to the Pamiri cluster.

Are you sure? It makes sense they'd be in the Pamiri cluster due to greater East Eurasian, but I'm just wondering if you've seen kits from there or not. I've seen a Kabuli Tajik that got almost no East Eurasian (as well as one that got ~10% IIRC) and am wondering how big the jump would be from Kabul to Panjshir (as well as Bamyan).

It'd also be interesting to see the results of Pamiris from southern (Afghanistani) Badakhshan. So far, all the Pamiri samples are from northern (Tajikistani) Badakhshan. I wonder if they have less Mongoloid than Tajiks from the same region and how close they'd be Pashtuns.


I tend to think the same about Kamboja. They probably were depending on the timeframe and location of various origin (Iranic, Nuristani, Dard). Many just stereotypically assume that only Iranics were warlike/equestrian. Interestingly the modern day ethnonym Afghan is derived from the term Asvaka (horse people) which was used for Kamboja by Indo-Aryans. Later it was used for early Pashtuns because they interacted with Indo-Aryans in a similar way and had a similar culture.

Interesting. Weird that easterners (Indians) gave us the name Afghan but the westerners (Persians, Armenians, etc) ended up calling us that whereas the easterners later started using the name Pathan. There was a theory that Afghans and Pashtuns were originally separate tribes but then they ended up merging into one and both names were used. But that theory doesn't make sense since the Pashtun tribal confederations (Sarbani, Bettani, Gharghashti, Karlani) are divided geographically and thus genetically.

[Borealis]

Seems very similar to IVC then. Maybe they were connected somehow?

They were in that much of their ancestry came from Iranian Neolithic, but IVC had significant South Asian hunter gatherer ancestry as well which BMAC largely lacked.

[Mingle]

They were in that much of their ancestry came from Iranian Neolithic, but IVC had significant South Asian hunter gatherer ancestry as well which BMAC largely lacked.

Do you think Burushaski is connected to BMAC, IVC, or neither? I've heard people on Anthrogenica connecting it to BMAC but if the Burushos were BMAC survivors, then they shouldn't be getting so much SAHG (South Asian Hunter Gatherer). The Burushos are genetically like Khatris (with a bit extra East Asian/Siberian) weirdly enough despite living in some isolated mountainous region. This may mean that they speak an IVC language but there seems to be no proof either way. Some scholars connect it with Dene-Caucasian while most tend to just treat it as an isolate.

Also, I wonder what the full domain was of SAGH people (i.e. lands where they originally formed the vast majority of the population). We can find SAGH ancestry all the way from the western Iranian Plateau to northern Central Asia and to Southeast Asia where it converges with other former Negrito lands (such as those inhabited by Hoabhinians (assuming they were a different people)). You may not know the answer, but I'm just leaving this up since it's a topic that I've been wondering for a while.

[Borealis]

Do you think Burushaski is connected to BMAC, IVC, or neither? I've heard people on Anthrogenica connecting it to BMAC but if the Burushos were BMAC survivors, then they shouldn't be getting so much SAHG (South Asian Hunter Gatherer). The Burushos are genetically like Khatris (with a bit extra East Asian/Siberian) weirdly enough despite living in some isolated mountainous region. This may mean that they speak an IVC language but there seems to be no proof either way. Some scholars connect it with Dene-Caucasian while most tend to just treat it as an isolate.

Also, I wonder what the full domain was of SAGH people (i.e. lands where they originally formed the vast majority of the population). We can find SAGH ancestry all the way from the western Iranian Plateau to northern Central Asia and to Southeast Asia where it converges with other former Negrito lands (such as those inhabited by Hoabhinians (assuming they were a different people)). You may not know the answer, but I'm just leaving this up since it's a topic that I've been wondering for a while.

I’ve no idea what language the BMAC spoke and never thought about it. I’ve heard speculations that IVC was Dravidian, and that perhaps proto Dravidian was brought by Iranian neolithics, and if that’s the case then BMAC may have also been Dravidian speakers. Again this is blind speculation on my part. The Burusho and many other groups in the region are indeed like plains people genetically. The reason for this is probably because the area around Swat was where the Indo-Aryans emerged. Many of the ethnic groups in the region are highly similar to those Iron Age swat samples and it’s likely that people in the Indus plains arrived there later from the Swat which was like a nucleus.

Those south Asian hunter gatherers existed for the most part in what we consider “desi” lands lol. Not sure about SE Asia but they were probably found there to some extent(which explains negritos) but vanished later. SAHG ancestry was previously nonexistent in Central Asia and west Asia, but trade links and interactions with the IVC brought it there. These hunter gatherers were by no means homogenous though. Onge for example are heavily SE Asian shifted.

[Proto-Shaman]

Tatars in Russia and to a lesser extent other Pre-Slavic Volga populations have some BMAC-related ancestry which probably was brought by Iranic back-migrations from Central Asia.
back-migrations via Caucasus or central Asia? Perhaps this Iranian substrate was always there?

[Leto]

back-migrations via Caucasus or central Asia? Perhaps this Iranian substrate was always there?
Bulgars came to the Middle Volga from Southern Russia, somewhere around the Azov area if I remember correctly. It's not surprising they had Southern ancestry.

[Proto-Shaman]

Bulgars came to the Middle Volga from Southern Russia, somewhere around the Azov area if I remember correctly. It's not surprising they had Southern ancestry.
Yes, but the strange thing is that Chuvash and Kurdish have strong lexical similarities. And Kurds use an ergative-agglutinative language.

[Proto-Shaman]

Found this map. How accurate is this map?
http://alterling2.narod.ru/English/Maps/KImmerE.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

Pamiri seem to be part of the cenrtral asian cluster
https://i.imgur.com/ZXlCsKp.jpg