Dalmatian serb Y dna

[Ayetooey]

Took the results from dalmatian Serbs listed from serb dna project. Amount of I1 is similar to Prijepolje in south-west serbia which is 25%.

I2a-Din - 39%

I1 - 24%

E-V13 - 13%

R1a -8%

J2b - 6%

N - 4%

J1 - 4%

R1b 3%

[Bosniensis]

I2 power!

We wuz Uropeans when nobody else was ffss..

[Ayetooey]

I2 power!

We wuz Uropeans when nobody else was ffss..

I1/I2 added together is 63% according to this. Not a conclusive list but interesting to look at either way. I think with more samples I2 will be even higher; I saw a list from 2017 and I2 was only 29% back then, 2 years later it's now 39%.

63% paleo european by paternal lines.

[Ülev]

almost Vikingz

[Blondie]

4% N and 24% I1 are interesting

[Ford]

3% R1b, nice. I'm feeling unique.

[Bosniensis]

I1/I2 added together is 63% according to this. Not a conclusive list but interesting to look at either way. I think with more samples I2 will be even higher; I saw a list from 2017 and I2 was only 29% back then, 2 years later it's now 39%.

63% paleo european by paternal lines.

We wuz drinking coffee with Neanderthals and we watched them die .... when J2 was eating Desert sand in Syria, when R1b and R1a were running around the steppes beyond Urals.

[xripkan]

Took the results from dalmatian Serbs listed from serb dna project. Amount of I1 is similar to Proboj in south-west serbia which is 25%.

I2a-Din - 39%

I1 - 24%

E-V13 - 13%

R1a -8%

J2b - 6%

N - 4%

J1 - 4%

R1b 3%

How big is this sample? Do you know more specific subclades of R1b and R1a results?

[Ayetooey]

almost Vikingz

In Prijepolje in south-west Serbia, men are tested 25% I1 so similar to Dalmatian Serbs; both South west Serbia and Dalmatian Serbs have heavy roots in the two Montenegrin clans Macur and Drobnjak, which are both I1 by Y dna.

[Ayetooey]

How big is this sample? Do you know more specific subclades of R1b and R1a results?

Only 115, just posted for a bit of fun; r1b is two celtic subclades and one balkan, don't know about R1a. R1a is always low in mountainous areas where south slavs inhabit; it's the same in north west montenegro and herzegovina.

[Ayetooey]

How big is this sample? Do you know more specific subclades of R1b and R1a results?

I just double checked, with R1A subclades are broken up like this.

R1a> R-M458=4
R1a> R-M417=1
R1a> R-CTS3402=2
R1a> R-YP6098=1
R1a> R-A11460=1

[xripkan]

I just double checked, with R1A subclades are broken up like this.

R1a> R-M458=4
R1a> R-M417=1
R1a> R-CTS3402=2
R1a> R-YP6098=1
R1a> R-A11460=1

All of them under the Slavic branch. No surprise.

[Kamal900]

I believe the I2 haplogroup is Slavic..I1 is very Germanic, I think.

[Ayetooey]

I believe the I2 haplogroup is Slavic..I1 is very Germanic, I think.

I2 haplogroup is Slavic; I1 is generally Germanic; in Dalmatian Serbs it comes from Macur and Drobjnak; two Montenegrin clans who's founders were I1. So the Y dna has a massive founder effect basically; they can all trace it back to the same people.

[Kamal900]

I2 haplogroup is Slavic; I1 is generally Germanic; in Dalmatian Serbs it comes from Macur and Drobjnak; two Montenegrin clans who's founders were I1. So the Y dna has a massive founder effect basically; they can all trace it back to the same people.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/U-iFUChGUjQ/maxresdefault.jpg

[Pribislav]

I2 haplogroup is Slavic; I1 is generally Germanic; in Dalmatian Serbs it comes from Macur and Drobjnak; two Montenegrin clans who's founders were I1. So the Y dna has a massive founder effect basically; they can all trace it back to the same people.

Vast majority of I1 Dalmatian Serbs are Drobnjak I1-P109 and Macura I1-Z63.

There is one guy from Benkovac eho is I1-M227, and one from Knin I1-P109 but he is not related with Drobnjaks.

[Blondie]

Personally i think 24% I1 cannot be true. This is proto-germanic marker, Germans have 16% I1, so dalmatian serbs are closer to proto-germanics than germans? Bullshit.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I1 map:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

Other thing is 4% N, this is the higest number in the region, so dalmatian serbs are the most finno-ugric population in Balkans and Central Europe? No way...

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Is there any under ''Croatian R1a'' branch ? You know one our little mate Pribislav claim is original Croat marker :)

[Ayetooey]

Personally i think 24% I1 cannot be true. This is proto-germanic marker, Germans have 16% I1, so dalmatian serbs are closer to proto-germanics than germans? Bullshit.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I1 map:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

Other thing is 4% N, this is the higest number in the region, so dalmatian serbs are the most finno-ugric population in Balkans and Central Europe? No way...

Serbs from Prijepolje are also 25% I1.

The I1 would have almost no effect autosomally; the I1 in Dalmatian serbs comes from like 2 people, founder of Macur clan and founder of Drobjnak, both from north-west Montenegro where many Dalmatian Serbs have clan origins from; any Germanic autosomal dna would of been bred out along time ago since it has such an extreme founder effect. I1 isn't proto germanic either; it's paleo European. R1b-U106 is proto germanic
.
I believe N is higher in Bosnian Serbs; this is only a small sample so N would likely be lower percent with higher sample.

[Pribislav]

Is there any under ''Croatian R1a'' branch ? You know one our little mate Pribislav claim is original Croat marker :)

Yes.

One Serb from Benkovac and one from Zrmanja which is in border of Dalmatia and Lika carry chakavian R1a-Z280>Y2613.

[Blondie]

Serbs from Priboj are also 25% I1.

The I1 would have almost no effect autosomally; the I1 in Dalmatian serbs comes from like 2 people, founder of Macur clan and founder of Drobjnak, both from north-west Montenegro where many Dalmatian Serbs have clan origins from; any Germanic autosomal dna would of been bred out along time ago since it has such an extreme founder effect. I1 isn't proto germanic either; it's paleo European. R1b-U106 is proto germanic
.
I believe N is higher in Bosnian Serbs; this is only a small sample so N would likely be lower percent with higher sample.

But it cannot be true, there is no way that dalmatian serbs have more proto germanic marker than germans. That's impossible.

[Ayetooey]

But it cannot be true, there is no way that dalmatian serbs have more proto germanic marker than germans. That's impossible.

It isn't proto germanic; it's paleo european. R1b-U106 is proto germanic. I1 was all over Europe at one point;

Serbs from Sandzak are 25% I1; they have similar origin to Serbs from Dalmatia, there was even a news article on it.

https://www.telegraf.rs/vesti/1745374-svaki-cetvrti-stanovnik-prijepolja-je-viking-proverite-koje-je-vase-pravo-poreklo

The results don't mean Dalmatian Serbs are 24% Germanic; it has a founder effect from a few men who founded these clans, within 6 generations any Germanic dna would be nonresistant due to breeding with different clans, and we're talking many hundreds of years here. I believe Drobjnak I1 came from Normans, Macur the saxons (might of been other way round). People who are part of these clans know it based off their family history, so I don't find these results that shocking (paternal lines are well documented by Serbs, due to existence of clans. slavas, etc.)

[Pribislav]

But it cannot be true, there is no way that dalmatian serbs have more proto germanic marker than germans. That's impossible.

Because of genetic drift of I1 among Dalmatian Serbs.

Serbs from Banija (central Croatia) have only 2-3% I1 which is lower than Serbian average.

Banija and Dalmatian Serbs have further origin from same regions.

[Ayetooey]

This isn't conclusive anyway, only for fun based off tested people; but I knew I1 would be elevated due to the migrations to Dalmatia from those clans. Pribislav posted map before which showed I1 peaks in sandzak serbs and dalmatian serbs, and sandzak serbs are 25%.

[Blondie]

It isn't proto germanic; it's paleo european. R1b-U106 is proto germanic. I1 was all over Europe at one point;

Serbs from Sandzak are 25% I1; they have similar origin to Serbs from Dalmatia, there was even a news article on it.

https://www.telegraf.rs/vesti/1745374-svaki-cetvrti-stanovnik-prijepolja-je-viking-proverite-koje-je-vase-pravo-poreklo

The results don't mean Dalmatian Serbs are 24% Germanic; it has a founder effect from a few men who founded these clans, within 6 generations any Germanic dna would be nonresistant due to breeding with different clans, and we're talking many hundreds of years here. I believe Drobjnak I1 came from Normans, Macur the saxons (might of been other way round). People who are part of these clans know it based off their family history, so I don't find these results that shocking (paternal lines are well documented by Serbs, due to existence of clans. slavas, etc.)

LOL nope, I1 is proto-germanic, this marker is highest in south Sweden, south Norway and Denmark (it was a home of proto-germanic peoples) and the germanic languages belong to paleo-european family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-European_languages

By your logic I2 is not slavic but paleo-european...

[Ayetooey]

LOL nope, I1 is proto-germanic, this marker is highest in south Sweden, south Norway and Denmark (it was a home of proto-germanic peoples) and the germanic languages belong to paleo-european family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-European_languages

By your logic I2 is not slavic but paleo-european...

I2 is paleo european, as is I1. I2 was slavicised by R1A, and I1 were Germanised by R1b-u106; Germanics/Slavic languages are indo european languages, I1/I2 are paleo European Y dna and existed in Europe long before indo europeans.

This debate is pointless anyway; based off migration and clan history I could of told you I1 would be high in dalmatian serbs before I even checked.

[Pribislav]

This isn't conclusive anyway, only for fun based off tested people; but I knew I1 would be elevated due to the migrations to Dalmatia from those clans. Pribislav posted map before which showed I1 peaks in sandzak serbs and dalmatian serbs, and sandzak serbs are 25%.

This map is from 2016. There was new I1 since 2016.
http://www.macure.net/Content/Images/Genetika/I1-Srbi.jpg

[Blondie]

I2 is paleo european, as is I1. I2 was slavicised by R1A, and I1 were Germanised by R1b-u106; Germanics/Slavic languages are indo european languages, I1/I2 are paleo European Y dna and existed in Europe long before indo europeans.

This debate is pointless anyway; based off migration and clan history I could of told you I1 would be high in dalmatian serbs before I even checked.

That's not true.

1. The I1 or I2 marker is paleo-european, but the subgroups of I1 and I2 is not. Subroups of I1 is belong to proto-germanic population, just like branches of I2 belong to proto-slavic ethnicity.

2. Proto Iindo-Europeans were europeans too, the PIE homeland was in Pontic Steppe and West Asia:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a0/c3/b5/a0c3b5ebce73e7e9a77db1922d8415dc.jpg

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

But it cannot be true, there is no way that dalmatian serbs have more proto germanic marker than germans. That's impossible.

They are very small population so genetic drift is high. Most of their I1 is not diverse and originates from two different clans.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I2 is paleo european, as is I1. I2 was slavicised by R1A, and I1 were Germanised by R1b-u106; Germanics/Slavic languages are indo european languages, I1/I2 are paleo European Y dna and existed in Europe long before indo europeans.

This debate is pointless anyway; based off migration and clan history I could of told you I1 would be high in dalmatian serbs before I even checked.

More correct to say they were Indo-Europeanised, because Slavs and Germans were born after that and these markers participated in their ethnogenesis.

[Blondie]

They are very small population so genetic drift is high. Most of their I1 is not diverse and originates from two different clans.

Maybe they are descedants of ostrogoths:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Empire_of_Theodoric_the_Great_523.gif

Very interesting. That explains Ford's germanic Y dna too.

[Ayetooey]

More correct to say they were Indo-Europeanised, because Slavs and Germans were born after that and these markers participated in their ethnogenesis.

True.

[Blondie]

asd

What about their mtdna? Source?

[Ayetooey]

Maybe they are descedants of ostrogoths:


Very interesting. That explains Ford's germanic Y dna too.

Ford has a celtic clade of R1B I think (might be wrong) not a Germanic clade.

I think Ostrogoth origin exists in some I1, theory is that Macure I1 comes from Ostrogoth. Drobnjaci I1 comes from mercenary Normans apparently.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Took the results from dalmatian Serbs listed from serb dna project. Amount of I1 is similar to Proboj in south-west serbia which is 25%.

I2a-Din - 39%

I1 - 24%

E-V13 - 13%

R1a -8%

J2b - 6%

N - 4%

J1 - 4%

R1b 3%

anyway here is comparsion with Dalmatian Croats

https://i.imgur.com/GZOmjrP.gif

[Blondie]

More correct to say they were Indo-Europeanised, because Slavs and Germans were born after that and these markers participated in their ethnogenesis.

Yes, but only the pure I1 and I2 markers are palo-europeans, today in 2019 there is no pure I1 or 2 branch, only subgroups which connected to germanic and slavic ethnicity.

[Ayetooey]

What about their mtdna? Source?

I don't know about MTDNA really, this is from Y dna project. I think most Serbs have paleo balkan mtdna from what I've heard as slavs were mainly men.

[Blondie]

Ford has a celtic clade of R1B I think (might be wrong) not a Germanic clade.

I think Ostrogoth origin exists in some I1, theory is that Macure I1 comes from Ostrogoth. Drobnjaci I1 comes from mercenary Normans apparently.

Ford has germanic marker, i checked it.

[Ayetooey]

Because of genetic drift of I1 among Dalmatian Serbs.

Serbs from Banija (central Croatia) have only 2-3% I1 which is lower than Serbian average.

Banija and Dalmatian Serbs have further origin from same regions.

I will do a comparison with Serbs from Central Croatia at some point; from what I've read I1 is much much lower, and R1a is elevated in them.

[Blondie]

I don't know about MTDNA really, this is from Y dna project. I think most Serbs have paleo balkan mtdna from what I've heard as slavs were mainly men.

Nope, the south slavic I2 branches originated from West Ukraine and migrated to Balkans with slavs 1400 years ago.

[Ryuk]

Other thing is 4% N, this is the higest number in the region, so dalmatian serbs are the most finno-ugric population in Balkans and Central Europe? No way...

Serbian and other balkanite people have N2 branch.This branch is most divergent N clade,diverged tens of thousand years ago.No Uralic or Asian folk bear this clade,only in Balkans and one Altai man.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Ford has germanic marker, i checked it.

My marker is Germanic :) I think his is Roman most likely or Celt.

[Ayetooey]

Nope, the south slavic I2 branches originated from West Ukraine and migrated to Balkans with slavs 1400 years ago.

Yes I know this; I know my own Y dna very well. I was talking about MTDNA not Y dna; slavic input in Serbs is mainly paternal (R1A/I2A) not maternal; re-read my post.

[Ayetooey]

My marker is Germanic :) I think his is Roman most likely or Celt.

You are correct. He is R-U152 which is the Italio/Celtic branch of R1B.

"Starting circa 1300 BCE, a new Bronze Age culture flourished around the Alps thanks to the abundance of metal in the region, and laid the foundation for the classical Celtic culture. It was actually the succession of three closely linked culture: the Urnfield culture, which would evolve into the Hallstatt culture (from 1200 BCE) and eventually into the La Tène culture (from 450 BCE). After the Unetice expansion to Western Europe between 2300 and 1800 BCE, the Urnfield/Hallstatt/La Tène period represents the second major R1b expansion that took place from Central Europe, pushing west to the Atlantic, north to Scandinavia, east to the Danubian valley, and eventually as far away as Greece, Anatolia, Ukraine and Russia, perhaps even until the Tarim basin in north-west China (=> see Tarim mummies.

The Celtic Iron Age (late Halstatt, from 800 BCE) may have been brought through preserved contacts with the the steppes and the North Caucasus, notably the Koban culture (1100-400 BCE).

The Alpine Celts of the Hallstatt culture are associated with the S28 (a.k.a. U152 or PF6570) mutation, although not exclusively. R1b-S28 would have entered Italy in successive waves from the northern side of the Alps, starting in 1700 BCE with the establishment of the Terramare culture in the Po Valley. From 1200 BCE, a larger group of Hallstatt-derived tribes founded the Villanova culture (see below). This is probably the migration that brought the Italic-speaking tribes to Italy, who would have belonged mainly the Z56 clade of R11b-S28. During the Iron Age, the expansion of the La Tène culture from Switzerland is associated with the diffusion of the Z36 branch, which would generate the Belgae around modern Belgium and in the Rhineland, the Gauls in France, and the Cisalpine Celts in Italy."

[Ford]

Ford has germanic marker, i checked it.

Mine is Hallstatt/La Téne, Celtic.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Yes I know this; I know my own Y dna very well. I was talking about MTDNA not Y dna; slavic input in Serbs is mainly paternal (R1A/I2A) not maternal; re-read my post.

Dick got Slav mtdna though.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Mine is Hallstatt/La Téne, Celtic.

Seems like your haplogroup is ''original Celtic'' branch. Look like those other clades like L21 in UK predate Celtic languages in Isles and are mostly Bell Beaker.
Real Celts were west-Central Europeans.

[Ayetooey]

Dick got Slav mtdna though.

He did but that's fairly rare I think; paleo balkanite MTDNA's are more common. Balkan dna largely comes from the assimilated native women. Not something I've read much into tho tbh mtdna is more boring.

[MiloshN]

Nice results... :thumb001:

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serb (I2-PH908).

Mixed Mode Population Sharing (K15 Eurogenes):

# Primary Population (source) Secundary Population (source)
1 58.7% Polish + 41.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.86
2 50.9% Belarussian + 49.1% Tuscan @ 2.01
3 54.3% Russian_Smolensk + 45.7% Tuscan @ 2.11
4 55.5% Polish + 44.5% Tuscan @ 2.19
5 64.3% Soith_Polish + 35.7% West_Sicilian @ 2.27
6 59.7% South_Polish + 40.3% Tuscan @ 2.28
7 60.3% Polish + 39.7% West_Sicilian @ 2.4
8 52.5% Southwest_Russian + 47.5% Tuscan @ 2.5
9 62.9% South_Polish + 37.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.5
10 50.7% Estonian_Polish + 49.3% Tuscan @ 2.54

[Blondie]

Serbian and other balkanite people have N2 branch.This branch is most divergent N clade,diverged tens of thousand years ago.No Uralic or Asian folk bear this clade,only in Balkans and one Altai man.

Bullshit, the first appearance of N marker in Europe connected to ancestrors of proto-uralics when they migrated from Siberia in Neolithic Age:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Early_Middle_Neolithic_map.png

[Ayetooey]

Seems like your haplogroup is ''original Celtic'' branch. Look like those other clades like L21 in UK predate Celtic languages in Isles and are mostly Bell Beaker.
Real Celts were west-Central Europeans.

Spot on "celtic L21" is bellbeaker which was celticised; Ford has the true Hallstatt celt Y dna. His Y dna does exist in Britain at upwards of 10% in some places though.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

He did but that's fairly rare I think; paleo balkanite MTDNA's are more common. Balkan dna largely comes from the assimilated native women. Not something I've read much into tho tbh mtdna is more boring.

Make sense. Balkan dna must come from somehwere and it's not from men at least not majority of them. I am some variation of I mtdna. One of those BA Dalmatians was some type of I and it looks to be steppe in origin.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Spot on "celtic L21" is bellbeaker which was celticised; Ford has the true Hallstatt celt Y dna. His Y dna does exist in Britain at upwards of 10% in some places though.

His ancestors were elite that teached those L21 Isles folk how to speak Celtic languages xD

[Ford]

Seems like your haplogroup is ''original Celtic'' branch. Look like those other clades like L21 in UK predate Celtic languages in Isles and are mostly Bell Beaker.
Real Celts were west-Central Europeans.


Spot on "celtic L21" is bellbeaker which was celticised; Ford has the true Hallstatt celt Y dna. His Y dna does exist in Britain at upwards of 10% in some places though.
I wuz celts

[Ford]

His ancestors were elite that teached those L21 Isles folk how to speak Celtic languages xD
Me on the right
https://animationreview.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/rabbit-hood-c2a9-warner-brothers.jpg

[Cumansky]

Earliest I1 found western Hungary buried close was a G2a farmer, this not Scandinavian origin group

I2 we know is not Slavic, there is basal clade I2 found in Crete, there is also found I2 in Starcevo culture in Balkan also buried close G2a farmers, also I2 in Cardium Pottery culture of Southwest Europe and Morocco

[Ayetooey]

Earliest I1 found western Hungary buried close was a G2a farmer, this not Scandinavian origin group

I2 we know is not Slavic, there is basal clade I2 found in Crete, there is also found I2 in Starcevo culture in Balkan also buried close G2a farmers, also I2 in Cardium Pottery culture of Southwest Europe and Morocco

The direct ancestor clade of I2a1b comes from Norway and Sweden (oldest sample found in Motala). The I2 in Starcevo is not the direct ancestor of the I2a found in south slavs, it shares a fairly distant relation. Basal I2 means nothing; I2/I1 were whole of Europe at one point.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Earliest I1 found western Hungary buried close was a G2a farmer, this not Scandinavian origin group

I2 we know is not Slavic, there is basal clade I2 found in Crete, there is also found I2 in Starcevo culture in Balkan also buried close G2a farmers, also I2 in Cardium Pottery culture of Southwest Europe and Morocco

It's specific subclade we are talking about dumbass not these prehistoric branches.

I1 has nothing to do with neolithic lmao, it's HG lineage just like I2

[Blondie]

Earliest I1 found western Hungary buried close was a G2a farmer, this not Scandinavian origin group

I2 we know is not Slavic, there is basal clade I2 found in Crete, there is also found I2 in Starcevo culture in Balkan also buried close G2a farmers, also I2 in Cardium Pottery culture of Southwest Europe and Morocco

We are talking about subgroups of I1 or I2 which does exist today. That's clearly slavic and germanic.

[Ryuk]

Bullshit, the first appearance of N marker in Europe connected to ancestrors of proto-uralics when they migrated from Siberia in Neolithic Age:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Early_Middle_Neolithic_map.png

When N2 seperated from N1,there was still ice age.
Learn some genetics,your moron blonde.

[Pribislav]

Serbian and other balkanite people have N2 branch.This branch is most divergent N clade,diverged tens of thousand years ago.No Uralic or Asian folk bear this clade,only in Balkans and one Altai man.

Serbs have only branch N-P189.2.

N-P189.2 is 3.1% on average among Serbs (on sample 1132), and Q is 0.44%.

On K13 Eurogenes Serbs on average have 0.7% Siberian https://forum.krstarica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=534211&d=1550928449

[Blondie]

When N2 seperated from N1,there was still ice age.
Learn some genetics,your moron blonde.

Learn some genetic you moron, look the earlier periods:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/8000BCE-haplogroups.png

Where is the N2 haplogroup? :lol00002:

[Cumansky]

Early I2 has been found in Crete a Mediterranean Island, how is this Slavic explain?

Early I1 has been found in western Hungary buried with G2a Neolithic farmer, how is this Scandinavian explain?

(just answer 2 questions, don't sidetrack)

[Cumansky]

When R1b was chasing caribou and reindeers in northern Siberia getting bullyed by Yakuts, we was already in Europe as native chilling on the southern beaches

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Early I2 has been found in Crete a Mediterranean Island, how is this Slavic explain?

Early I1 has been found in western Hungary buried with G2a Neolithic farmer, how is this Scandinavian explain?

(just answer 2 questions, don't sidetrack)

Early R1 found in Siberia and India, how is it white man's clade ? Bring more wisdom here man.

[Ryuk]

Learn some genetic you moron, look the earlier periods:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/8000BCE-haplogroups.png

Where is the N2 haplogroup? :lol00002:




Because it did not come with Uralics.

https://s2.eksiup.com/04cb0fc5a946.jpg (https://eksiup.com/04cb0fc5a946)

You see,y DNA N formed 36.800 years ago,N2 formed 21.000 years ago and diverged 12.500 years ago.Balkanite people common N2 ancestor lived circa 4400 years ago,during bronze age.So,it must ve came to Balkan with IE invasions.

Where are the Uralics ,your shitmind.

[Cumansky]

Early I2 has been found in Crete a Mediterranean Island, how is this Slavic explain?

Early I1 has been found in western Hungary buried with G2a Neolithic farmer, how is this Scandinavian explain?

(just answer 2 questions, don't sidetrack)

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Harkonnen Finnish dude claims N haplogroup is Balkan in origin.

[Cumansky]

Why did you sidetrack again Nato?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Why did you sidetrack again Nato?

You're a troll even other Polaks said that about you.

[Cumansky]

Early I2 has been found in Crete a Mediterranean Island, how is this Slavic explain?

Early I1 has been found in western Hungary buried with G2a Neolithic farmer, how is this Scandinavian explain?

(just answer 2 questions, don't sidetrack)

Nato my midget, why you cannot answer these 2 questions above?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Nato my midget, why you cannot answer these 2 questions above?

1. Dinaric subclade is Slav, rest of I2 not
2. I1 arrive to Scandinavia after I2, but it is main Scandinavian marker probably since Bronze Age

[Cumansky]

1. Dinaric subclade is Slav, rest of I2 not
2. I1 arrive to Scandinavia after I2, but it is main Scandinavian marker probably since Bronze Age

Ok already you are contradicting yourself here Nato

Before you are saying I2 all clades are Slavic, now I put pressure and you are changing story that my clade I2 is mysterious origin, but Croatian I2 is Slavic to fit your agenda

[Cumansky]

I2 has common origin oldest in Europe, only recent separated

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Ok already you are contradicting yourself here Nato

Before you are saying I2 all clades are Slavic, now I put pressure and you are changing story that my clade I2 is mysterious origin, but Croatian I2 is Slavic to fit your agenda

Your type of I2 could be Roma/Gypsy though.

[Pribislav]

Vast majority of Dalmatian Serb I1 is Macure Z63 and Drobnjak P109 as I said.

Macure probably have Gothic origin by paternal line macure.net/en/Home#!Genetika_TeorijeoPorekluPlemenaMacura

Paternal ancestor of Drobnjaks was probably Norman who arrived to Balkans in army of Robert Guicsard in late 11th century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Guiscard#Against_the_Byzantines

[Ayetooey]

Vast majority of Dalmatian Serb I1 is Macure Z63 and Drobnjak P109 as I said.

Macure probably have Gothic origin by paternal line macure.net/en/Home#!Genetika_TeorijeoPorekluPlemenaMacura

Paternal ancestor of Drobnjaks was probably Norman who arrived to Balkans in army of Robert Guicsard in late 11th century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Guiscard#Against_the_Byzantines

Indeed, origin of I1 in Serbs is very interesting. Macure are left over Ostrogoths by paternal line, Drobnjaks were Norman mercenaries allegedly.

[Ayetooey]

DI1ck's I1, which is from North Serbia, is allegedly connected to the ancient Suebi. Some interesting history here.

[Cumansky]

Your type of I2 could be Roma/Gypsy though.

You are a Gypsy, I2 is native of Europe

There is no point to debate, you have admitted your loss cause you could not answer question without contradicting your own words from 30 mins before

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

You are a Gypsy, I2 is native of Europe

There is no point to debate, you have admitted your loss cause you could not answer question without contradicting your own words from 30 mins before

I am not debating with you.

[Pribislav]

Indeed, origin of I1 in Serbs is very interesting. Macure are left over Ostrogoths by paternal line, Drobnjaks were Norman mercenaries allegedly.

Macure branch maybe arrived with Slavs. Some Goths were slavized in eastern Europe.

Or their y dna came directly with Goths and later they were assimilated by Slavs.

Macure manifestation in Belgrade, on this video all men are I1-Z63. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVNAzP64_z8

[Ayetooey]

Macure branch maybe arrived with Slavs. Some Goths were slavized in eastern Europe.

Or their y dna came directly with Goths and later they were assimilated by Slavs.

Macure manifestation in Belgrade, on this video all men are I1-Z63. :)



Though most Dalmatian Serbs trace recent origins to Bosnia; I think most have true origins from North west Montenegro and east Herzegovina; Bosnia settlement was likely temporary.

My closest match on y dna is Serb from Priboj, which implies Montenegrin origin; though match is still quite distant.

[Cumansky]

I am not debating with you.

Don't fight with the King either you peasant German collaborator you will lose everytime

Croatians are chokeartist, we already know this from world cup

Every Croatian I know in real life is chokeartist, in basketball squad they always my backup, and they daddy crying to coach "Why you not my play my son Dario over this Polish Vlach sniper, please"

[Pribislav]

Though most Dalmatian Serbs trace recent origins to Bosnia; I think most have true origins from North west Montenegro and east Herzegovina; Bosnia settlement was likely temporary.

My closest match on y dna is Serb from Priboj, which implies Montenegrin origin; though match is still quite distant.

Dalmatian Serbs are as all Krajina Serbs are most connected in deeper origin with East Herzegovina and Old Herzegovina (Western Montenegro).

Some originated from Raška and Podrinje and some are natives of Donji Kraji (Western Bosnia) assimilatted by Herzegovinians. I read on Poreklo about "herzegovization" of native Serbs of Donji Kraji.
Few Krajina Serb families who are I2-CTS10228 have deep origin in Macedonia and northern Greece.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Don't fight with the King either you peasant German collaborator you will lose everytime

Croatians are chokeartist, we already know this from world cup

Every Croatian I know in real life is chokeartist, in basketball squad they always my backup, and they daddy crying to coach "Why you not my play my son Dario over this Polish Vlach sniper, please"

Dude, you don't need to ruin another thread. Open separate thread if you want to discuss something.

[Pribislav]

@ Ayetooey

Dalmatian Serb are recorders in total I score of all Serbs.

[Ayetooey]

@ Ayetooey

Dalmatian Serb are recorders in total I score of all Serbs.

So far yes, 63%. I think with more samples I2 may go higher, it has increased since 2017 in the samples.

I will do comparison thread with other Serbs from Croatia at some point; R1a seems more elevated in them along with I2.

[Pribislav]

So far yes, 63%. I think with more samples I2 may go higher, it has increased since 2017 in the samples.

I will do comparison thread with other Serbs from Croatia at some point; R1a seems more elevated in them along with I2.

I agree.

On larger sample I2a and R1a will be higher and I1 lower for sure. I'm not sure for other haplos.

[Blondie]

Because it did not come with Uralics.

https://s2.eksiup.com/04cb0fc5a946.jpg (https://eksiup.com/04cb0fc5a946)

You see,y DNA N formed 36.800 years ago,N2 formed 21.000 years ago and diverged 12.500 years ago.Balkanite people common N2 ancestor lived circa 4400 years ago,during bronze age.So,it must ve came to Balkan with IE invasions.

Where are the Uralics ,your shitmind.

N haplogroup is clearly uralic you retard.

"Its highest frequency occurs among Uralic and northern Turkic peoples. Especially in ethnic Finnic peoples and Baltic-speaking peoples of northern Europe, the Ob-Ugric-speaking and Northern Samoyed peoples of western Siberia, the Siberian Turkic-speaking Yakuts (McDonald 2005), Altaians and Shors. Nearly all members of haplogroup N among these populations of northern Eurasia belong to subclades of N1a-F1206/M2013/S11466. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231

Yakuts are turkicized samoyeds.

[Pribislav]

...

[Blondie]

Ok already you are contradicting yourself here Nato

Before you are saying I2 all clades are Slavic, now I put pressure and you are changing story that my clade I2 is mysterious origin, but Croatian I2 is Slavic to fit your agenda

No one said that the pure I2 was slavic, there is no prure I2 haplogroup in Europe only subgroups. The I2 subgroups (I2a1) is clearly slavic:

This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric).

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). No Y-DNA sample from this culture has been tested to date, but as it evolved as an offshoot from the Starčevo–Kőrös–Criş culture, it is likely that I2a was one of its main paternal lineages, and a founder effect could have increased considerably its frequency. The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was the most advanced Neolithic culture in Europe before the Indo-European invasions in the Bronze Age and seems to have had intensive contacts with the Steppe culture before the expansion of Yamna to the Balkans and Central Europe (see histories of R1a and R1b). From 3500 BCE, at the onset of the Yamna period in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, the Cucuteni-Trypillian people started expanding east into the steppe of what is now western Ukraine, leaving their towns (the largest in the world at the time), and adopting an increasingly nomadic lifestyle like their Yamna neighbours. It can easily be imagined that Cucuteni-Trypillian people became assimilated by the Yamna neighbours and that they spread as a minority lineage alongside haplogroups R1a and R1b as they advanced toward the Baltic with the Corded Ware expansion. Alternatively, I2-L621 lineages could have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Proto-Indo-European society somewhere around Ukraine, Poland or Belarus, then as the centuries and millennia passed, would have blended with the predominantly R1a populations around them. The resulting amalgam would have become the ancestors of the Proto-Slavs."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Only the I2a2 is germanic:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

[Pribislav]

https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1069933_309726679171552_2098462533_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1 05&_nc_ht=scontent-sof1-1.xx&oh=139a9f50bb4996cfffb98ee064ca00aa&oe=5D1ED2F0

Left one is fully Dalmatian Serb. Could she pass as descendant of I1?

I know both personally.

[Blondie]

https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1069933_309726679171552_2098462533_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1 05&_nc_ht=scontent-sof1-1.xx&oh=139a9f50bb4996cfffb98ee064ca00aa&oe=5D1ED2F0

Which one is fully Dalmatian Serb?

Left i think

[Ayetooey]

Either could be but I would say the lady on the right.

[Pribislav]

Left i think

Yes

[Ayetooey]

..

[Pribislav]

I match with a few Macure Montenegrins distantly; one of my lines is likely Macure in origin.

Is there Macure in Montenegro?

From what I know there is no Macure surname in Montenegro for centuries. They migrated from northern Montenegro first in Herzegovina and later to Dalmatia. In the last 4 centuries center of Macure is Kistanje in Dalmatia.
There are some Macure toponyms in Lim valley as memory that Macure once lived there.

[Dušan]

Yes.

One Serb from Benkovac and one from Zrmanja which is in border of Dalmatia and Lika carry chakavian R1a-Z280>Y2613.

Only two people among several hundreds of tested people.

It is very rare among Krajina Serbs.

[Ayetooey]

Is there Macure in Montenegro?

From what I know there is no Macure surname in Montenegro for centuries. They migrated from northern Montenegro first in Herzegovina and later to Dalmatia. In the last 4 centuries center of Macure is Kistanje in Dalmatia.
There are some toponyms in Lim valley as memory that Macure once lived there.

Match I have has 3 grandparents from Montenegro, one from Serbia; it's possible his Macure line is a reverse migration to Serbia or Montenegro from Dalmatia, since I have no recent ancestry on my fathers side outside of Dalmatia.

[Pribislav]

Only two people among several hundreds of tested people.

It is very rare among Krajina Serbs.

I know.
There is also few in Lika, Bosanska Krajina and Banija. That is nothing.

Look this 33:10 - 38:00 https://youtu.be/k0Q700YAPtk?t=1990

Dobra emisija, Mazalici svaka ki u Njegoša!

[Ayetooey]

I misread. Match of mine is Morača not Macure. :picard1:

[Pribislav]

I misread. Match of mine is Morača not Macure. :picard1:

Might be Piperi. Part of them are I2-PH908 I think.

[Ayetooey]

Might be Piperi. Part of them are I2-PH908 I think.

It say's he is from Morača but by paternal line is Božovići; I am probably related to this guy through his Serbian born grandparent who probably has Dalmatian ancestry; this person is just an autosomal match. I have been told my Y dna is possibly connected to Sobot from Drvar, but nothing is confirmed yet.

https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/03/26/%C5%A1obot/

[Pribislav]

It say's he is from Morača but by paternal line is Božovići; I am probably related to this guy through his Serbian born grandparent who probably has Dalmatian ancestry; this person is just an autosomal match. I have been told my Y dna is possibly connected to Sobot from Drvar, but nothing is confirmed yet.

https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/03/26/%C5%A1obot/

Božovići belong to Piperi clan. Morača is wider area of few clans.

Šobot from Drvar carry same branch and slava as you. There is probably relation few centuries in the past.
Šoboti probably arrived in Drvar from Dalmatia in 19th century as most of Serbian families from Drvar area.

[Tschaikisten]

This thread is cancer.

[Ayetooey]

This thread is cancer.

:sad:

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serbs - sample 129

I2a-Din - 39.5%

I1 - 23.3%

E1b - 12.4%

R1a - 9.3%

J2 - 6.2%

N2 - 3.9%

J1 - 3.1%

R1b - 2.3%

[Dick]

Dalmatian Serbs - sample 129

I2a-Din - 39.5%

I1 - 23.3%

E1b - 12.4%

R1a - 9.3%

J2 - 6.2%

N2 - 3.9%

J1 - 3.1%

R1b - 2.3%

that's a lot of I1 xD

[Pribislav]

that's a lot of I1 xD

Yea, a lot of I1 and total I which is 63%.

7 Dalmatian Serbs was tested in this April for "world dna day." There is 3 I2a and 3 I1. One result is not published yet, but it will be I1 or I2a without doubt.

[PaleoEuropean]

that's a lot of I1 xD

I can't remember where I read it, it might have been in my anthropology class, but the Paleo-Europeans took extensive measures to not inbreed, they used to travel, meet and gather then marry far off tribe members.

[Ayetooey]

I can't remember where I read it, it might have been in my anthropology class, but the Paleo-Europeans took extensive measures to not inbreed, they used to travel, meet and gather then marry far off tribe members.

This would make a lot of sense; look at Sardinians, around 75% I2, but almost entirely neolithic autosomally. The neolithic British builders of stonehenge were also tested recently, all the men were I2 even though autosomally the builders were almost purely neolithic. I2 chased that med poontang.

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serbs - sample 132

I2a-Din - 39.4%

I1 - 24.2%

E1b - 12.1%

R1a - 9.1%

J2 - 6.1%

N2 - 3.8%

J1 - 3%

R1b - 2.3%

[Ayetooey]

Sample is now 133.

I2a - 39.9%

I1 - 24.1%

E1b - 12%

R1a - 9%

J2 - 6%

N2 - 3.8%

J1 - 3%

R1b - 2.3%

[Dick]

Sample is now 133.

I2a - 39.9%

I1 - 24.1%

E1b - 12%

R1a - 9%

J2 - 6%

N2 - 3.8%

J1 - 3%

R1b - 2.3%

Imao soon I1 will surpass I2

[Pribislav]

Sample 137

I2a - 40.2%

I1 - 23.4%

E1b - 11.7%

R1a - 9.5%

J2 - 6.5%

N2 - 3.6%

J1 - 2.9%

R1b - 2.2%

[Ayetooey]

Sample 137

I2a - 40.2%

I1 - 23.4%

E1b - 11.7%

R1a - 9.5%

J2 - 6.5%

N2 - 3.6%

J1 - 2.9%

R1b - 2.2%

Paleolithic power. Only 11% of men paternally descended from the Indo's. Tho I do suspect R1a will increase with more samples.

[Pribislav]

Paleolithic power. Only 11% of men paternally descended from the Indo's. Tho I do suspect R1a will increase with more samples.

Among Krajina Serbs it's battle between Dalmatian and Kordun Serbs for the most I2a. Kordun Serbs were 48-49% I2a, but on the quite smaller sample of around 40.

Even if Kordun Serbs would have higher I2a on larger sample, Dalmatian Serbs have higher total I (I1 is weak on Kordun and Banija).

[Pribislav]

A lot of members of Macura clan (I1-Z63) is tested.

This is statistic if I counted only one member of Macura clan, and remove other double and triple tested of other haplogroups who have same surname, and remove few Catholics, and that is much more real.

One haplogroup one surname, and only Orthodoxe Dalmatians - sample 120

I2a-Din - 44.2%

I1 - 14.2%

E1b - 12.5%

R1a - 10.8%

J2 - 6.7%

R1b - 5%

N2 - 4.1%

J1 - 2.5%

[Artek]

A lot of members of Macura clan (I1-Z63) is tested.

As I expected. Do you know where they exactly fall?

[vbnetkhio]

As I expected. Do you know where they exactly fall?

you mean on the i1 tree?

I1-M253>Z63>S2078>Y16437>Y16434 Мацуре

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16435/

[Pribislav]

As I expected. Do you know where they exactly fall?

About origin of Macura clan http://macure.net/en/Home#!Genetika_TeorijeoPorekluPlemenaMacura

[MiloshN]

Koji je to Albanski rod? Kad ih u toj podgrani ima puno?

[Artek]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16435/


About origin of Macura clan http://macure.net/en/Home#!Genetika_TeorijeoPorekluPlemenaMacura

Thank you. Someone should tell them that they can set flags ;)

[vbnetkhio]

Koji je to Albanski rod? Kad ih u toj podgrani ima puno?

it came with Goths and some were assimilated into Serbs, some into Albanians

[MiloshN]

it came with Goths and some were assimilated into Serbs, some into Albanians

Aha, ok I understand now. Thanks.

[Artek]

it came with Goths and some were assimilated into Serbs, some into Albanians

It makes more sense than coming with Slavs because it looks like that lineage was already well established in the region like 1500 years ago. I am almost certain that Slavic people also carried some Gothic I1 into the Balkans though. That's just probably not the case of this certain Macura clan, especially if they were "Latin" before.

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serbs with I (17/120).

Bačko (Ramljane/Knin) - I1>I-Y13930
Bjedov (Mokro Polje/Ervenik) - I1>I-FGC22045
Bojanić (Žagrović/Knin) - I1>IFGC22945
Bulović (Bitelić/Sinj) - I1>I-Z63
Drača (Donje Biljane/Benkovac) - I1>I-A11380
Dujaković (Biskupija/Knin) - I1>I-FGC22045
Đumić (Knin) - I1>I-FG22045
Karan (Donje Ceranje/Bnkovac) - I1>I-FGC22045
Lakić (Gornji Karin/Obrovac) - I1>I-Z58
Mažibrada (Kistanje) - I1>I-A11380
Marinković (Tribanj/Starigrad) - I1>I-Y16434
Macura (Kistanje) - I1>I-Y16434
Odavić (Imotski) - I1>I-FGC22045
Popović (Biovičino Selo/Kistanje) - I1>I-Z63
Prodan (Tribanj/Starigrad) - I1>I-Y16434
Prostran (Smoković/Zadar) - I1>I-Y16434
Šeat (Knin) - I1>I-FGC22045

[Artek]

Dalmatian Serbs with I (17/120).

Bačko (Ramljane/Knin) - I1>I-Y13930
Bjedov (Mokro Polje/Ervenik) - I1>I-FGC22045
Bojanić (Žagrović/Knin) - I1>IFGC22945
Bulović (Bitelić/Sinj) - I1>I-Z63
Drača (Donje Biljane/Benkovac) - I1>I-A11380
Dujaković (Biskupija/Knin) - I1>I-FGC22045
Đumić (Knin) - I1>I-FG22045
Karan (Donje Ceranje/Bnkovac) - I1>I-FGC22045
Lakić (Gornji Karin/Obrovac) - I1>I-Z58
Mažibrada (Kistanje) - I1>I-A11380
Marinković (Tribanj/Starigrad) - I1>I-Y16434
Macura (Kistanje) - I1>I-Y16434
Odavić (Imotski) - I1>I-FGC22045
Popović (Biovičino Selo/Kistanje) - I1>I-Z63
Prodan (Tribanj/Starigrad) - I1>I-Y16434
Prostran (Smoković/Zadar) - I1>I-Y16434
Šeat (Knin) - I1>I-FGC22045

Were they tested in the same manner? I can easily say they may represent at least 5 independent lines if not more.

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serbs with R1b (6/120).

Dopuđ (Kruševo, Obrovac) - R1b>R-Y4355
Zrnić (Kričke/Drniš) - R1b>R-FT101521
Pavasović (Skradin) - R1b>R-BY250
Plavšić (Golubić/Knin) - R1b>R-L2
Šušak (Smilčić/Benkovac) - R1b>R-Y32147
Gargenta (Vrlika) - R1b


I can't post I2a ones, they are to numerous.

[Pribislav]

Pavasović (Skradin) - R1b>R-BY250

Does somebody know more about this clade of R1b?


Pavasović family are noble Serb family from Skradin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skradin

They were Uskoks in 17th and 18th century in Venetian service, and they ruled on Skradin Krajina (area) in the name of Venetians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks

[vbnetkhio]

coming with Slavs

that's possible too. but originally it was definitely Gothic.
they didn't have an expansion until later medieval times. in 500 AD it could've been just 2 families somewhere at the modern Montenegro/Albania border.

also how come the Macura surname exists in Poland today? could it be a Slavicized Gothic word? maybe Mazursky too

[Pribislav]

that's possible too. but originally it was definitely Gothic.
they didn't have an expansion until later medieval times. in 500 AD it could've been just 2 families somewhere at the modern Montenegro/Albania border.

also how come the Macura surname exists in Poland today? could it be a Slavicized Gothic word? maybe Mazursky too

In Poland exist surname Macurski, and in Czechia Macura or something similar.

On the gathering of Macura clan in Belgrade few years ago were came guests from Czechia and Poland who carry similar surnames as Macura. They bealive they have same far paternal origin with Serbian Macure.

[vbnetkhio]

In Poland exist surname Macurski, and in Czechia Marura or something similar.

On the gathering of Macura clan in Belgrade few years were came guests from Czechia and Poland who carry similar surnames as Macura. They bealive they have same far paternal origin as Serbian Macure.

there is also "Macura", exactly like that

http://www.locatemyname.com/pl/Macura

it exists in other countries too, Czechia, Germany. type "Macura" in the search bar

[Artek]

that's possible too. but originally it was definitely Gothic.
they didn't have an expansion until later medieval times. in 500 AD it could've been just 2 families somewhere at the modern Montenegro/Albania border.

also how come the Macura surname exists in Poland today? could it be a Slavicized Gothic word? maybe Mazursky too

It does shows up in Poland but I doubt they have anything to do with Serb clan: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/Ndistr?nazwisko=Macura

It is likely a variant of a surname Machura and that change is in line with dialectic differences between parts of Austrian Silesia and Prussian Silesia/Western Lesser Poland: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/Ndistr?nazwisko=Machura
Most probably it means just son of Maciej/Matej.

On the other hand Mazury means (region settled by people from Masovia/Mazowsze region). Southern parts of Eastern Prussia have seen significant settlement from Masovia and that's how this part gained its name. Before the settlement in XVI and XVII centuries, this region was known as Sudovia, Galindia and Bartia from the names of the Old Prussian tribes present there.

[vbnetkhio]

It does shows up in Poland but I doubt they have anything to do with Serb clan: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/Ndistr?nazwisko=Macura

It is likely a variant of a surname Machura and that change is in line with dialectic differences between parts of Austrian Silesia and Prussian Silesia/Western Lesser Poland: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/Ndistr?nazwisko=Machura
Most probably it means just son of Maciej/Matej.

On the other hand Mazury means (region settled by people from Masovia/Mazowsze region). Southern parts of Eastern Prussia have seen significant settlement from Masovia and that's how this part gained its name. Before the settlement in XVI and XVII centuries, this region was known as Sudovia, Galindia and Bartia from the names of the Old Prussian tribes present there.

so Mazury only refers to those specific Masovians who settled in Prussia? it can't be a name for Masovians in Masovia?

there is one I-Y16435 in Belarus, maybe western Belarus, near Mazovia, somebody proposed that Serbian Macura could a corruption of Mazury.

But if the original root was Mazov- and not Mazur- than it can't be that.

[Artek]

so Mazury only refers to those specific Masovians who settled in Prussia? it can't be a name for Masovians in Masovia?

there is one I-Y16435 in Belarus, maybe western Belarus, near Mazovia, somebody proposed that Serbian Macura could a corruption of Mazury.

But if the original root was Mazov- and not Mazur- than it can't be that.

Masovian people were named Mazury (Mazur for a single person) in almost every Polish region at least since XV century (so it probably was known earlier). Mazur is also a common surname.

I don't know who the Belarusian sample is, may be even a Pole from Belarus but I don't know the details. I just remember that my colleague SNP tested one masovian noble family that matched this guy from the Belarus.

[Pribislav]

Macura clade of I1 probably came to the Balkan with Slavs (some Goths were absorbed in eastern Europe by Slavs in V century). Surname Macura is probably related with Mazovia region in Poland.

Serbian Macure lived in Lim valley (northern Montenegro) in the late middle age. In 15th century Vasojević clan (E-V13) pushed them from Lim valley, and they moved on the west first in Herzegovina and later to the Dalmatia.
In the last +400 years Macure lived in Kistanje and around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kistanje

[vbnetkhio]

Masovian people were named Mazury (Mazur for a single person) in almost every Polish region at least since XV century (so it probably was known earlier). Mazur is also a common surname.

I don't know who the Belarusian sample is, may be even a Pole from Belarus but I don't know the details. I just remember that my colleague SNP tested one masovian noble family that matched this guy from the Belarus.

then the Macura-Mazur connection is very likely.


Macura clade of I1 probably came to the Balkan with Slavs (some Goths were absorbed in eastern Europe by Slavs in V century). Surname Macura is probably related with Mazovia region in Poland.

Serbian Macure lived in Lim valley (northern Montenegro) in the late middle age. In 15th century Vasojević clan (E-V13) pushed them from Lim valley, and they moved on the west first in Herzegovina and later to the Dalmatia.
In the last +400 years Macure lived in Kistanje and around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kistanje

maybe Mazur was the name of a local Gothic clan, before they were Slavicized? the etymology of Mazur and Mazovia is uncertain

[Artek]

then the Macura-Mazur connection is very likely.

It is just clear than some Gothic clades related to Macura are found in Masovia (and in other Polish regions where descendants of Goths have settled).


maybe Mazur was the name of a local Gothic clan, before they were Slavicized? the etymology of Mazur and Mazovia is uncertain


A little about the ethymology, unfortunately in Polish: http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Studia_Elckie/Studia_Elckie-r2012-t14/Studia_Elckie-r2012-t14-s273-287/Studia_Elckie-r2012-t14-s273-287.pdf

It is not clear whether Mazowsze comes from XIth century ruler named Miecław/Masław or from maź meaning clayish ground found at the heart of the region.

[Pribislav]

maybe Mazur was the name of a local Gothic clan, before they were Slavicized? the etymology of Mazur and Mazovia is uncertain

It's possible.

Macure probably settled in Dalmatia in the first half of 16th century (in Zadar area on Venetian territory), and later they moved to the Bukovica/Kistanje.
In one document from 1575 it's written for some person "sin Macurov", which probably means "member of Macura clan."
In 1696 Macure are recorded in Obrovac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obrovac,_Croatia

[Pribislav]

Koji je to Albanski rod? Kad ih u toj podgrani ima puno?

:confused:

[Leto]

Sample 137

I2a - 40.2%

I1 - 23.4%

E1b - 11.7%

R1a - 9.5%

J2 - 6.5%

N2 - 3.6%

J1 - 2.9%

R1b - 2.2%
R1a is so fucking low in Croatian Serbs. But the Nordic Y DNA is surprisingly common.

[Dick]

Does somebody know more about this clade of R1b?


Pavasović family are noble Serb family from Skradin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skradin

They were Uskoks in 17th and 18th century in Venetian service, and they ruled on Skradin Krajina (area) in the name of Venetians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks

Maybe descend from someone from the republic of Venice

[Pribislav]

A lot of members of Macura clan (I1-Z63) is tested.

This is statistic if I counted only one member of Macura clan, and remove other double and triple tested of other haplogroups who have same surname, and remove few Catholics, and that is much more real.

One haplogroup one surname, and only Orthodoxe Dalmatians - sample 120

I2a-Din - 44.2%

I1 - 14.2%

E1b - 12.5%

R1a - 10.8%

J2 - 6.7%

R1b - 5%

N2 - 4.1%

J1 - 2.5%

Herzegovinian Serbs have same % of I2a-Din as Dalmatian Serbs.
Serbs from Kordun and western Serbia are also +40% I2a-Din.
Serbs from Bosnia are close to 40%.

On average I2a-Din among Serbs is 38-39%. Which is higher than Croatians in both % and total number.
Number of tested Serbs on Serbian dna project is over 7000. Serbian dna project is most serious dna project in the Balkan.

[vbnetkhio]

Were they tested in the same manner?

no, Serbian dna project has their own lab, and they also collect results from 23andme and ftdna

[Pribislav]

R1a is so fucking low in Croatian Serbs. But the Nordic Y DNA is surprisingly common.

I1 "ate" R1a in Dalmatian Serbs.

Serbs from Lika, Kordun and Banija (regions of Croatia with Serbian majority until 1995) have significant higher R1a but lower I1.
R1a is about 19% in Lika Serbs according to last statistic on sample 127.

[vbnetkhio]

R1a is so fucking low in Croatian Serbs. But the Nordic Y DNA is surprisingly common.

that's just for Dalmatia, not enitre Croatia. i1 is from small families which expanded into tribes, se there's not much autosomal germanic influence.

[Pribislav]

Maybe descend from someone from the republic of Venice

According to sources they came to Dalmatia from Herzegovina in 17th century.

What kind of R1b is that?

[Leto]

that's just for Dalmatia, not enitre Croatia. i1 is from small families which expanded into tribes, se there's not much autosomal germanic influence.
Am I right saying R1a is the lowest in Crna Gora and the highest in Republika Srpska?

[Dick]

According to sources they came to Dalmatia from Herzegovina in 17th century.

What kind of R1b is that?

Their ftdna group calls it “North German”

[vbnetkhio]

According to sources they came to Dalmatia from Herzegovina in 17th century.

What kind of R1b is that?

it belongs to the "Eastern r1b", found among the indo-european outliers: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/34/32/44/3432445b926d9d828687ac7eacfb945b.gif

but this specific subclade seems west European.

it's a very old and widespread haplogroup, it was found in Yamnaya.

[Dick]

it belongs to the "Eastern r1b", found among the indo-european outliers: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/34/32/44/3432445b926d9d828687ac7eacfb945b.gif

but this specific subclade seems west European.

it's a very old and widespread haplogroup, it was found in Yamnaya.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY250/

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Herzegovinian Serbs have same % of I2a-Din as Dalmatian Serbs.
Serbs from Kordun and western Serbia are also +40% I2a-Din.
Serbs from Bosnia are close to 40%.

On average I2a-Din among Serbs is 38-39%. Which is higher than Croatians in both % and total number.
Number of tested Serbs on Serbian dna project is over 7000. Serbian dna project is most serious dna project in the Balkan.


I1 "ate" R1a in Dalmatian Serbs.

Serbs from Lika, Kordun and Banija (regions of Croatia with Serbian majority until 1995) have significant higher R1a but lower I1.
R1a is about 19% in Lika Serbs according to last statistic on sample 127.

Feiichy sends you greetings and advises you to stop lying.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310495-23andme-Croats-haplogroup-stats

[vbnetkhio]

Am I right saying R1a is the lowest in Crna Gora and the highest in Republika Srpska?

it's more random. i think it's higher in southern Montenegro than the rest. and for example in Aleksandrovac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandrovac) it's around 20% like in Srpska.

it would make more sense to look at the percentage r1a and i2a together.

[Ford]

Feiichy sends you greetings and advises you to stop lying.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310495-23andme-Croats-haplogroup-stats

Nothing is out of her reach :rotfl:

[Pribislav]

Feiichy sends you greetings and advises you to stop lying.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310495-23andme-Croats-haplogroup-stats

I think on statistic from Eupedia where Croatian is 37% I2a.
Sample on Eupedia is higher then Feiichy's home maded.
Still there is much much more tested Serbs than Croatians. Croatian dna project is not even open for public, unlike Serbian one with thousands published results.

Banovana je, pa ko joj je kriv kad pušća Stearsa da joj koristi profil. Stears je provaljen i Loki ga klepio banom po ušima. :)

[Leto]

it's more random. i think it's higher in southern Montenegro than the rest. and for example in Aleksandrovac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandrovac) it's around 20% like in Srpska.

it would make more sense to look at the percentage r1a and i2a together.
Would be interesting to see data from Belgrade. A all-Serbian city.

[Pribislav]

@ Hrvoje

Pričekajde dok sjašim s telefona i dođem do kompa, pa ćeš viditi kolko Srbija a kolko Hrvatska imaju I2a na ozbiljnom uzorku na međunarodnoj studiji.
Moram sade ići, ima neke obaveze.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Nothing is out of her reach :rotfl:

We're friends man.

[Ford]

We're friends man.

I know, I think she mentioned before that you've met irl. Just found it funny how it seemed to come out of nowhere since she's temporarily banned :P

[vbnetkhio]

Herzegovinian Serbs have same % of I2a-Din as Dalmatian Serbs.
Serbs from Kordun and western Serbia are also +40% I2a-Din.
Serbs from Bosnia are close to 40%.

On average I2a-Din among Serbs is 38-39%. Which is higher than Croatians in both % and total number.
Number of tested Serbs on Serbian dna project is over 7000. Serbian dna project is most serious dna project in the Balkan.

there are 3 Serbian genetic studies which haven't been published yet: SANU, Herzegovina and Kosovo, right?

[vbnetkhio]

Would be interesting to see data from Belgrade. A all-Serbian city.

there's one very old Belgrade study here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#Tables

[Pribislav]

there are 3 Serbian genetic studies which haven't been published yet: SANU, Herzegovina and Kosovo, right?

Yes.
Herzegovinian Serbs study should be published soon. Kosovo Serbs not so soon. For SANU I don't know.

Regardless Herzegovinian Serbs study is not published yet officialy statistic on high sample is known https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276682-Herzegovinian-Serbs-Y-DNA

[Dick]

Masovian people were named Mazury (Mazur for a single person) in almost every Polish region at least since XV century (so it probably was known earlier). Mazur is also a common surname.

I don't know who the Belarusian sample is, may be even a Pole from Belarus but I don't know the details. I just remember that my colleague SNP tested one masovian noble family that matched this guy from the Belarus.

The guy in question is a Belarusian, same surname as this MMA fighter


https://www.sherdog.com/image_crop/200/300/_images/fighter/1493402651d835121cd254dbb1fce686d13f5989fb.png

[Bosniensis]

A lot of members of Macura clan (I1-Z63) is tested.

This is statistic if I counted only one member of Macura clan, and remove other double and triple tested of other haplogroups who have same surname, and remove few Catholics, and that is much more real.

One haplogroup one surname, and only Orthodoxe Dalmatians - sample 120

I2a-Din - 44.2%

I1 - 14.2%

E1b - 12.5%

R1a - 10.8%

J2 - 6.7%

R1b - 5%

N2 - 4.1%

J1 - 2.5%

I2a1b Paleo Balkan and Paleo-European Dinarid Master Race. Cromagnons!

https://cdn.britannica.com/56/19156-050-4BEE027D/Justinian-I-detail-Church-mosaic-Ravenna-Italy.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/bf/4e/f6bf4e4d0cb08c5cd5434946005824bf.jpg
https://www.onthisday.com/images/people/aurelian-medium.jpg
https://cdn.britannica.com/14/12314-004-4FDE54E5.jpg

[Pribislav]

I2a1b Paleo Balkan and Paleo-European Dinarid Master Race. Cromagnons!

https://cdn.britannica.com/56/19156-050-4BEE027D/Justinian-I-detail-Church-mosaic-Ravenna-Italy.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/bf/4e/f6bf4e4d0cb08c5cd5434946005824bf.jpg
https://www.onthisday.com/images/people/aurelian-medium.jpg
https://cdn.britannica.com/14/12314-004-4FDE54E5.jpg

Branko Marjanović Dalmatian Serb from Vrlika - Dinarid+CM (Illyrian look), probably I2a.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NplMcjjVixo/maxresdefault.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

I2a1b Paleo Balkan and Paleo-European Dinarid Master Race. Cromagnons!


you are honorary Vlachs. E-V13 are the real deal.

[vbnetkhio]

Branko Marjanović Dalmatian Serb from Vrlika - Dinarid+CM (Illyrian look), probably I2a.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NplMcjjVixo/maxresdefault.jpg

he is unusual for the Balkans. he reminds me of a Russian with Caucasus admixture. open a classify thread for him.

[Bosniensis]

Branko Marjanović Dalmatian Serb from Vrlika - Dinarid+CM (Illyrian look), probably I2a.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NplMcjjVixo/maxresdefault.jpg

Balkan Dinarid with certain finesses from Eastern Europeans or Nordids. (eyes for example are not Balkan) but face is.

[Pribislav]

Balkan Dinarid with certain finesses from Eastern Europeans or Nordids. (eyes for example are not Balkan) but face is.

Another Dinaric Dalmatian Serb - Miloš Degenek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miloš_Degenek

https://headbandsandheartbreak.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/milos-degenek_opt.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1100707575560048640/9kuxtcKp_400x400.jpg

[Bosniensis]

Another Dinaric Dalmatian Serb - Miloš Degenek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miloš_Degenek

[IMG]https://headbandsandheartbreak.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/milos-degenek_opt.jpg[/IG]
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1100707575560048640/9kuxtcKp_400x400.jpg[/IG]

Montenegrin father from Žabljak.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Santa_Giulia_4.jpg

https://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2019a//06/13N/sp-krstajic.jpg

[Pribislav]

Montenegrin father from Žabljak.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Santa_Giulia_4.jpg

https://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2019a//06/13N/sp-krstajic.jpg

They really look very similar. How someone can say we are not native?

[Dick]

They really look very similar. How someone can say we are not native?

All I-men are native to Europe :)

[Bosniensis]

They really look very similar. How someone can say we are not native?

That statue of Aurelian, guy was born in Sremska Mitrovica.

[Pribislav]

That statue of Aurelian, guy was born in Sremska Mitrovica.

Gaius Julius Caesar
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/julius-caesar-jpg.618908/


Serbian actor Nenad Jezdić
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/maxresdefault-jpg.618909/

[Dick]

That statue of Aurelian, guy was born in Sremska Mitrovica.

Your brother is a lawyer. We should file a lawsuit against the EU for reparations for us indigenous people. We have genetic proofs and these are liberal times, let's make use of it while we can before WW3 starts.

[Pribislav]

Another Dinaric Dalmatian Serb - Miloš Degenek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miloš_Degenek

https://headbandsandheartbreak.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/milos-degenek_opt.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1100707575560048640/9kuxtcKp_400x400.jpg

Degenek is Atlanto-Dinarid, I would say.

[Bosniensis]

Gaius Julius Caesar
[IMG]https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/julius-caesar-jpg.618908/[/IG]

Serbia actor Nenad Jezdić
[IMG]https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/maxresdefault-jpg.618909/[/MG]

Miša Janketić (даље порјекло из Црне Горе)

https://glossy.espreso.rs/data/images/2019/05/15/11/259995_1850907-luka01news1dragankadic-ls_ff.jpg

Diocletian (dalmatia) (црна гора)

http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/14/12314-004-4FDE54E5.jpg

[Bosniensis]

Your brother is a lawyer. We should file a lawsuit against the EU for reparations for us indigenous people. We have genetic proofs and these are liberal times, let's make use of it while we can before WW3 starts.

Those Romanized Illyrians nowdays Slavs were later known as Vlachs who got assimilated again into our populace.

Just look at Ottoman Empire. In it's zenith, you had people in Bosnia speaking Turkish.

Just like we Bosniaks are leftover of Ottoman Empire the same way Vlachs are leftover of Roman Empire, but technically it's all the same people. Even Ottoman Empire is basically a successor to Eastern Roman Empire.

[Pribislav]

Those Romanized Illyrians nowdays Slavs were later known as Vlachs who got assimilated again into our populace.

Just look at Ottoman Empire. In it's zenith, you had people in Bosnia speaking Turkish.

Just like we Bosniaks are leftover of Ottoman Empire the same way Vlachs are leftover of Roman Empire, but technically it's all the same people. Even Ottoman Empire is basically a successor to Eastern Roman Empire.

Sinane, ti ličiš na imperatora sa avatara ti. :)

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serbs with R1a (13/120)

Knez (Kosore/Vrlika) - R1a-M458
Arnaut (Kosore/Vrlika) - R1a-M458
Kunac (Kričke/Drniš) - R1a-M417
Bursać (Plavno/Knin) - R1a>R-A11460
Savić (Benkovac) - R1a-Z280>Y2613
Sakić (Dobropoljci/Benkovac) - R1a>R-CTS3402
Tica (Golubić/Knin) - R1a>R-CTS3402
Đujić (Knin) - R1a-M458>L1029
Vulić (Bitelić/Sinj) - R1a-Z280>YP270
Kosović (Ravni Kotari) - R1a
Šljivar (Golubić/Knin) - R1a>R-YP951
Manojlović (Knin) - R1a-M458>L1029
Ćuruvija (Knin) -R1a-M458>L1029

[Jana]

he is unusual for the Balkans. he reminds me of a Russian with Caucasus admixture. open a classify thread for him.

Ofcourse he is, he looks like Stears and not like a typical Serb. But Pribislav is trying to pass him as typical dinarid, nice joke.

[Jana]

I think on statistic from Eupedia where Croatian is 37% I2a.
Sample on Eupedia is higher then Feiichy's home maded.

My statistics is as valid as Serbian, made by Serbs. And from now on I don't care for pro studies in the slightest. Like you, a Croat will be making Croatian statistics. I don't trust others.
Our I2-din is 41% so far.

[Pribislav]

Ofcourse he is, he looks like Stears and not like a typical Serb. But Pribislav is trying to pass him as typical dinarid, nice joke.

Once you claimed that Stears is Dinarid, you even claimed for yourself. Do you remember?

[Jana]

Once you claimed that Stears is Dinarid, you even claimed for yourself. Do you remember?

It was a joke. But Stears has dinarid influence.

[vbnetkhio]

Those Romanized Illyrians nowdays Slavs were later known as Vlachs who got assimilated again into our populace.

Just look at Ottoman Empire. In it's zenith, you had people in Bosnia speaking Turkish.

Just like we Bosniaks are leftover of Ottoman Empire the same way Vlachs are leftover of Roman Empire, but technically it's all the same people. Even Ottoman Empire is basically a successor to Eastern Roman Empire.

what's your closest deep dive match on MTA

[Bosniensis]

what's your closest deep dive match on MTA

Kievan Rus, Sunghir6 I2a1b.

Those are Balkanites or Western Europeans who went to live among R1a East Europeans.

[vbnetkhio]

Kievan Rus, Sunghir6 I2a1b.

Those are Balkanites or Western Europeans who went to live among R1a East Europeans.

i had him before the update, now i get the Protovillanovan Illyrian from East Italy :p

[Artek]

Vulić (Bitelić/Sinj) - R1a-Z280>YP270

Balts, Balts everywhere. That's the same clade as J. R. R. Tolkienović

[Pribislav]

Arnaut (Kosore/Vrlika) - R1a-M458

Arnaut is Turkish name for Albanian. This is texbook example how surnames which has ethnic meaning often are not connected with that ethnicity. In Dalmatia "Arnaut" and "Turčin" (Turk) were nicknames for arrogant people wich have heavy character.

Serbian family Arnaut from Livno (SW Bosnia) is N-P189.2. Another confirmation that Serbs with this surnames are not connected with Albanians.

[Dick]

Kievan Rus, Sunghir6 I2a1b.

Those are Balkanites or Western Europeans who went to live among R1a East Europeans.

:rotfl:

[Jana]

Dalmatian Serbs with R1b (6/120).

Dopuđ (Kruševo, Obrovac) - R1b>R-Y4355
Zrnić (Kričke/Drniš) - R1b>R-FT101521
Pavasović (Skradin) - R1b>R-BY250
Plavšić (Golubić/Knin) - R1b>R-L2
Šušak (Smilčić/Benkovac) - R1b>R-Y32147
Gargenta (Vrlika) - R1b

I can't post I2a ones, they are to numerous.

https://www.hop.com.hr/2016/12/25/hrvatska-imena-i-prezimena-koja-su-vremenom-posrbljena-i-popravoslavljena-u-srbiji/

[Pribislav]

https://www.hop.com.hr/2016/12/25/hrvatska-imena-i-prezimena-koja-su-vremenom-posrbljena-i-popravoslavljena-u-srbiji/

Says Dragan Ilić mentally ill Serb who wanna be Croatian. :picard1:

Once on forum hr I have seen post of some Croatian guy who said that most of Serbian surnames from Bosanska Krajina sounds Croatian. :picard1: After that he started to speak about orthodoxization of Croatians in Bosnia in Ottoman time. :picard1:

[Pribislav]

A lot of members of Macura clan (I1-Z63) is tested.

This is statistic if I counted only one member of Macura clan, and remove other double and triple tested of other haplogroups who have same surname, and remove few Catholics, and that is much more real.

One haplogroup one surname, and only Orthodoxe Dalmatians - sample 120

I2a-Din - 44.2%

I1 - 14.2%

E1b - 12.5%

R1a - 10.8%

J2 - 6.7%

R1b - 5%

N2 - 4.1%

J1 - 2.5%

I2-PH908 is 26.7% (or 60.5% of total I2a-Din).

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serb lines (using mainstream genetic view).

55% "Slavic" (I2a-Din, R1a)

22.6% "Paleo-Balkanic" (E1b, J2, R1b-U152, R1b-BY611)

15% "Germanic" (I1, R1b-BY250)

7.4% unknown origin (N-P189.2, J1, and one R1b sample)


Bosniensis would disagree with this. :)

[Dušan]

Dalmatian Serb lines (using mainstream genetic view).

55% "Slavic" (I2a-Din, R1a)

22.6% "Paleo-Balkanic" (E1b, J2, R1b-U152, R1b-BY611)

15% "Germanic" (I1, R1b-BY250)

7.4% unknown origin (N-P189.2, J1)


Bosniensis would disagree with this. :)

J1 unknown? Isn't it paleo-Balkan?

[Pribislav]

J1 unknown? Isn't it paleo-Balkan?

Serbian J1-ZS9949 including Dalmatians originated from Herzegovina, but I don't know much about deeper origin of that clade. Maybe came to the Balkan with Jews in Roman time, or on some other way in ancient time or middle age.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Dalmatian Serb lines (using mainstream genetic view).

55% "Slavic" (I2a-Din, R1a)

22.6% "Paleo-Balkanic" (E1b, J2, R1b-U152, R1b-BY611)

15% "Germanic" (I1, R1b-BY250)

7.4% unknown origin (N-P189.2, J1, and one R1b sample)


Bosniensis would disagree with this. :)

How's U152 Paleo-Balkan? That's western Euro clade.

[Bosniensis]

Dalmatian Serb lines (using mainstream genetic view).

55% "Slavic" (I2a-Din, R1a)

22.6% "Paleo-Balkanic" (E1b, J2, R1b-U152, R1b-BY611)

15% "Germanic" (I1, R1b-BY250)

7.4% unknown origin (N-P189.2, J1, and one R1b sample)


Bosniensis would disagree with this. :)


Well if you observe modern world and how it actually works, it's no wonder we have self-destructive historians and geneticsts.

After all, Paleo-Balkanic is the one whom Americans proclaim they are, facts do not concern them on any level.

[Pribislav]

How's U152 Paleo-Balkan? That's western Euro clade.

Probably came with Romans, or maybe even with Celts. It was present in Balkan at least from Roman time. Serbs from Bosanska Krajina and Dalmatia who carry R1b-U152 originated from Herzegovinian "vlachs" Ugarci.

[Bosniensis]

Probably came with Romans, or maybe even with Celts. It was present in Balkan at least from Roman time. Serbs from Bosanska Krajina and Dalmatia who carry R1b-U152 originated from Herzegovinian "vlachs" Ugarci.

Келти су род а не културно друштво. Незамисливо је да су Германи који су починили најстрашнији геноцид у историји људског рода исте хаплогрупе као и Келти који су даљим родом са Балкана и Анадолије.
То да су Р1б Келти је највећа глупост коју могу прихватити само генетичари шарлатани без имало познавања историје, ратова и миграције. Ти Р1б власи угарци су романизовани германски војници који су служили
Римску војску концем петог стољећа на западу и тако је Р1б дошао међу влахе. Сви прави Власи тј. староседиоци балкана било илири, гали и слични су или И2 или Ј2 или Е1б или Г хаплогрупа.


Келти који су градили Стонехенџ су потврђени као И2а2 те је нађен огроман број И2а1 и И2а2 жртвоватних људи у околици Стонхенџа ... тј. из времена када ниједан Енглез, Саксон Р1б није био у британији.
Античка Галска гробља су И2а2, Античка Сјеверна Италија (Јужна Алпска Галија) И2а1.

То што су они поклали мушкарце, узели жене, па сад што због тих жена имају неку генетику то нема никакве везе.

[Pribislav]

Келти су род а не културно друштво. Незамисливо је да су Германи који су починили најстрашнији геноцид у историји људског рода исте хаплогрупе као и Келти који су даљим родом са Балкана и Анадолије.
То да су Р1б Келти је највећа глупост коју могу прихватити само генетичари шарлатани без имало познавања историје, ратова и миграције. Ти Р1б власи угарци су романизовани германски војници који су служили
Римску војску концем петог стољећа на западу и тако је Р1б дошао међу влахе. Сви прави Власи тј. староседиоци балкана било илири, гали и слични су или И2 или Ј2 или Е1б или Г хаплогрупа.


Келти који су градили Стонехенџ су потврђени као И2а2 те је нађен огроман број И2а1 и И2а2 жртвоватних људи у околици Стонхенџа ... тј. из времена када ниједан Енглез, Саксон Р1б није био у британији.
Античка Галска гробља су И2а2, Античка Сјеверна Италија (Јужна Алпска Галија) И2а1.

То што су они поклали мушкарце, узели жене, па сад што због тих жена имају неку генетику то нема никакве везе.

Од кога потичу онда ови наши R1b-U152?

[Bosniensis]

Од кога потичу онда ови наши R1b-U152?

То су готи, визиготи и остроготи те остала германска племена, за које се наводи да су отимали жене масовно од поробљеног становништва (које су поступно у потпуности истребили), они су од Римљана
научили нешто мало латинског који су измјешали са својим и оформили данашње "Романсне" језике.

Ја сигурно знам да они нису оно што се представљају да јесу, али ето ти мени немој вјеровати, вјеруј њима али запамти ово што сам ти рекао, временом ће се то открити.

Р1б су ти барбари што су уништили Западну цивилизацију како Рима тако и Келта.

Видјећеш колику ће тежину имати то што смо ми Балканци И2а1, а они само нека причају о тим аутозомалним резултатима колико хоће, само смо МИ најстарији у Европи и нисмо дошли из Еуроазије,
а за Келте се говоре да су најстарији народ европе. Они себи нека приписују туђе колико хоће ко и ови Албанци што носе Е1б Афричке гене, доћи ће и наше вријеме.

[Pribislav]

То су готи, визиготи и остроготи те остала германска племена, за које се наводи да су отимали жене масовно од поробљеног становништва (које су поступно у потпуности истребили), они су од Римљана
научили нешто мало латинског који су измјешали са својим и оформили данашње "Романсне" језике.

Ја сигурно знам да они нису оно што се представљају да јесу, али ето ти мени немој вјеровати, вјеруј њима али запамти ово што сам ти рекао, временом ће се то открити.

Р1б су ти барбари што су уништили Западну цивилизацију како Рима тако и Келта.

Видјећеш колику ће тежину имати то што смо ми Балканци И2а1, а они само нека причају о тим аутозомалним резултатима колико хоће, само смо МИ најстарији у Европи и нисмо дошли из Еуроазије,
а за Келте се говоре да су најстарији народ европе. Они себи нека приписују туђе колико хоће ко и ови Албанци што носе Е1б Афричке гене, доћи ће и наше вријеме.

Синане, R1b-U152 има највише у Италији, а у германским земљама је нема пуно.

[Bosniensis]

Синане, R1b-U152 има највише у Италији, а у германским земљама је нема пуно.

Па шта ти мислиш ко су Талијани Бог ти дао?

Јел ти стварно мислиш да је то Античка популација Италије?

Па ко су ти људи што су уништили Западни Рим, Ко су ти људи што су спалили Рим неколико пута?

Зашто талијани користе имена типа Франческо?

Ево рећу ти ја, Талијани су дошли из Скандинавије у 5 вијеку и зову се Лангобарди ови у сјеверу, Рим су заузели и држе Франци (како су Римљани и звани Талијане кад су се морали повући у Цариград)

Талијана оних старих у Италији има можда око 25%

Ти да знаш оно што ја знам теби би очи испале... и да си читао кронике Источног Римског Царства да чујеш шта говоре о Талијанима и ко су они...

Па погледај њихов језик... како су успјели за 200 година прећи са Латинског који је имао 7 падежа као и наш, на Талијански који има 4 падежа? РЕФОРМОМ ЈЕЛИ?

Читава Европа изузев Балкана и Анадолије је Окупирана од Индо Азијских хорди у 5 вијеку.

[Dick]

То су готи, визиготи и остроготи те остала германска племена, за које се наводи да су отимали жене масовно од поробљеног становништва (које су поступно у потпуности истребили), они су од Римљана
научили нешто мало латинског који су измјешали са својим и оформили данашње "Романсне" језике.

Ја сигурно знам да они нису оно што се представљају да јесу, али ето ти мени немој вјеровати, вјеруј њима али запамти ово што сам ти рекао, временом ће се то открити.

Р1б су ти барбари што су уништили Западну цивилизацију како Рима тако и Келта.

Видјећеш колику ће тежину имати то што смо ми Балканци И2а1, а они само нека причају о тим аутозомалним резултатима колико хоће, само смо МИ најстарији у Европи и нисмо дошли из Еуроазије,
а за Келте се говоре да су најстарији народ европе. Они себи нека приписују туђе колико хоће ко и ови Албанци што носе Е1б Афричке гене, доћи ће и наше вријеме.

Dude, the founders of Republican Rome were R1b. Read up on the new study of Ancient Rome. I know you’re Bosnian but come on xD

[ProudBrit]

You're both wrong,I don't think any of you read the paper,the r1b's from the early republic were italics, remnants of the Urnfield culture, not romanized germans or anything else.The reality is that these people lived in mud huts, Rome grown from a small greek colony that mixed with the italic latins.

And if you read the paper later on a shit ton more of greeks(from Epirus,Magna Grecia to Antioch,Alexandria,Asia Minor) joined in plus some minor punics and levantines(prob jews)

[Bosniensis]

....

[vbnetkhio]

Синане, R1b-U152 има највише у Италији, а у германским земљама је нема пуно.

Don't listen to him lol.

Stonehenge was built by the Megalithic Culture which was predominantly i2. Then Britain was invaded by R1b Bell Beakers, who almost completely replaced the Megalithic people.
Then in the iron age came the Celts from the Alps who brought different subclades of R1b and some G2, and a little bit different autosomal (they were more neoltihic)

The Celts didn't replace the Bell Bekares, but they left a significant input.

[Bosniensis]

Don't listen to him lol.

Stonehenge was built by the Megalithic Culture which was predominantly i2. Then Britain was invaded by R1b Bell Beakers, who almost completely replaced the Megalithic people.
Then in the iron age came the Celts from the Alps who brought different subclades of R1b and some G2, and a little bit different autosomal (they were more neoltihic)

The Celts didn't replace the Bell Bekares, but they left a significant input.

Stonehenge was built by Celts, it was their Druidic Monastery.

Just like Kogaionon which was build by Dacians, their Cousins.

[vbnetkhio]

Stonehenge was built by Celts, it was their Druidic Monastery.

Just like Kogaionon which was build by Dacians, their Cousins.

why don't you accept that ethnic groups can die out and get replaced by completely differrent peoples?

[Dick]

Stonehenge was built by Celts, it was their Druidic Monastery.

Just like Kogaionon which was build by Dacians, their Cousins.

No dude Stonehenge was used as a solar calendar by the farmers long before celts

[vbnetkhio]

Serbian J1-ZS9949 including Dalmatians originated from Herzegovina, but I don't know much about deeper origin of that clade. Maybe came to the Balkan with Jews in Roman time, or on some other way in ancient time or middle age.

some J2 might be of Near eastern Romans origins too. just put it all in a "pre-Slavo-Germanic" catheogry.
A "pre-Scythian" with N-Y6503 was found in Hungary in Mezőcsát culture, 1000 bc.

[Pribislav]

some J2 might be of Near eastern Romans origins too. just put it all in a "pre-Slavo-Germanic" catheogry.
A "pre-Scythian" with N-Y6503 was found in Hungary in Mezőcsát culture, 1000 bc.

Almost all J2 Dalmatian Serbs are J2b1-M205, this branch is majority of Serbian J2 in general. J2b1-M205 originated in Syria. Came to the Balkan in Roman time, probably due to some Roman soldier of Syrian origin who served Roman army in the Balkan. That was probably happened in IV century AD. J2b1-M205 became part of Vlachs and later was slavized.
Some people see J2b1-M205 as paleo-Balkanic, but that clade arrived to the Ballan only 200 years or something before so called Slavic migration. It's clear that J2b1-M205 have nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians or any other pre-Roman Balkan population.

[Varda]

Northern Dalmatian Serbs on 116 samples with reduced Macure (I1-Z63), August 2021. A lot of Macure was tested which makes percentage of I1 unreal.

I2-Y3120 = 42.2%
I2-PH909 = 24.1%
I2-Z17855 = 6%

I1 = 14.7%
I1-P109 = 6%
I1-Z63 = 5.2%
I1-M227 = 1.7%
I1-Z58 = 1.7%

E1b = 12.1%
E-Y37092 = 2.6%
E-L241 = 1.7%

R1a= 9.5%
R1a-M458 = 5.2%

J2b = 7.8%
J2b-M205 = 6.9%
J2b-M241 = 0.9%

N2 = 7.8%
N2-P189.2 = 7.8%

R1b = 3.4%
R1b-U152 = 1.7%
R1b-Z2103 = 1.7%

J1 = 2.6%
J1-Z9949 = 2.6%


Source https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1494.msg161471#msg161471

[Varda]

On the Serbian dna project and action of testing Serbian families from Vrlika area is underway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrlika
https://www.poreklo.rs/2021/11/23/projekat-geneticko-genealoskog-istrazivanja-vrlickog-kraja/

For now there is 50 tested Serbian Orthodox families (surnames) from Vrlika Krajina (area).

50 samples
I2a-Din (22) = 44%
R1a (9) = 18%
E-V13 (7) = 14%
R1b (5) = 10%
J2b (3) = 6%
J1 (2) = 4%
N2 (1) = 2%
I1 (1) = 2%

I2a-Din (Kričković - Maovice, Majlković - Maovice, Marčetić - Koljane, Stričević - Koljane, Tutuš - Koljane, Rnić - Otišić, Dragić - Civljane, Racić - Podosoje, Četnik - Cetina, Barišić - Cetina, Vuković - Cetina, Kostur - Cetina, Preočanin - Cetina, Marjan - Cetina, Ivančić - Kosore, Mišina - Kosore, Batica - Cetina, Bogdanović - Štikovo, Jošić - Baljci, Graovac - Štikovo, Bura - Štikovo, Poplašen - Mirlović Polje)
...
R1a (Arnaut - Kosore, Đurić - Maovice, Knez - Kosore, Novaković - Maovice, Primetica - Maovice, Vranješ - Cetina, Ustić - Otišić, Đukić - Cetina, Medić - Cetina)
...
E-V13 (Meljanac - Otišić, Milaš - Cetina, Pavlović - Civljane, Subotić - Otišić, Gajić - Otišić, Stojsavljević - Otišić, Crnomarković - Civljane)
...
R1b (Cvitkovac - Maovice, Petković - Maovice, Gargenta - Cetina, Bodrožić - Koljane, Iglendža - Koljane)
...
J2b (Despinić - Otišić, Šarac - Civljane, Guševac - Kanjane)
...
J1 (Miodrag - Kanjane, Grujić - Štikovo)
...
N2 (Garić - Koljane)
...
I1 (Bulović - Bitelić)

[vbnetkhio]

On Serbian dna project and action of testing Serbian families from Vrlika area is underway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrlika
https://www.poreklo.rs/2021/11/23/projekat-geneticko-genealoskog-istrazivanja-vrlickog-kraja/

For now there is 50 tested Serbian Orthodox families (surnames) from Vrlika Krajina (area).

50 samples
I2a-Din (22) = 44%
R1a (9) = 18%
E-V13 (7) = 14%
R1b (5) = 10%
J2b (3) = 6%
J1 (2) = 4%
N2 (1) = 2%
I1 (1) = 2%

I2a-Din (Kričković - Maovice, Majlković - Maovice, Marčetić - Koljane, Stričević - Koljane, Tutuš - Koljane, Rnić - Otišić, Dragić - Civljane, Racić - Podosoje, Četnik - Cetina, Barišić - Cetina, Vuković - Cetina, Kostur - Cetina, Preočanin - Cetina, Marjan - Cetina, Ivančić - Kosore, Mišina - Kosore, Batica - Cetina, Bogdanović - Štikovo, Jošić - Baljci, Graovac - Štikovo, Bura - Štikovo, Poplašen - Mirlović Polje)
...
R1a (Arnaut - Kosore, Đurić - Maovice, Knez - Kosore, Novaković - Maovice, Primetica - Maovice, Vranješ - Cetina, Ustić - Otišić, Đukić - Cetina, Medić - Cetina)
...
E-V13 (Meljanac - Otišić, Milaš - Cetina, Pavlović - Civljane, Subotić - Otišić, Gajić - Otišić, Stojsavljević - Otišić, Crnomarković - Civljane)
...
R1b (Cvitkovac - Maovice, Petković - Maovice, Gargenta - Cetina, Bodrožić - Koljane, Iglendža - Koljane)
...
J2b (Despinić - Otišić, Šarac - Civljane, Guševac - Kanjane)
...
J1 (Miodrag - Kanjane, Grujić - Štikovo)
...
N2 (Garić - Koljane)
...
I1 (Bulović - Bitelić)

looks normal for the region, the r1a is increased

[Varda]

looks normal for the region, the r1a is increased

R1a and R1b are higher than Dalmatian Serb average, N2 and I1 are lower, I2a-Din and E-V13 are close to average.

Poplašen, Batica and Barišić belong to "Mirilović" branch I2-Y56829. Mirilovići originated from Bileća area in East Herzegovina where they are recorded in 1368. as "vlach" katun. They settled in Dalmatian hinterland in 15th century. Before these 3 families are tested there was only one genetic Mirilović among Dalmatian Serbs (Mirilo from Žegar in Bukovica).
Crnomarković and Milaš belong to "Mataruga" branch of E-V13, they originated from Mataruge clan from East/Old Herzegovina. They are first Dalmatian Serbs with that "Mataruga" branch for now.
Primetica is first Dalmatian Serb who is R1a-YP4278, it seems this branch was present in Zahumlje and Raška since middle age. In Raška probably came from Zahumlje in the late middle age.

[Varda]

---

Moderator from Poreklo said that Vrlika Serbs results in general show dominant Herzegovinian related deeper origin even more than Krajina Serb average in which is also the strongest Herzegovinian migration current.


BY14900 and especially YP951 inside of R1a among Vrlika Serbs (and Krajina Serbs in general) look indigenous of western/southwestern Bosnia.

- Novaković (Maovice) R1a-BY149000
- Đurić (Maovice) R1a-BY149000
- Primetica (Maovice) R1a-YP4278
- Ustić (Otišić) R1a-YP951
- Medić (Cetina) R1a-YP951
- Arnaut (Kosore) R1a-L1029
- Knez (Kosore) R1a-M458
- Vranješ (Cetina) R1a-YP6047
- Đukić (Cetina) R1a-YP6047