Russian empire vs British empire (POLLS)

[black hole]

What you are going to choose?




Russian empire


https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1kDkvmRjTBKNjSZFDq6zVgVXag/Imperial-Russia-national-Flag-3x5FT-Russian-Empire-Flag.jpg_640x640.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Russian_Empire_at_it%27s_greatest_extent_%281866%2 9.png






British empire


https://i.postimg.cc/SKBQygf3/345345.png
https://i.postimg.cc/Yr9x5bv8/34345-webp.png

[The Lawspeaker]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Dutch_Empire_preWWII.PNG


But if I have to choose: I'm with the Brits.

https://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/shop/media/image/57/74/09/Flag-Pins-Netherlands-Great-Britain.jpg

[Chelubey]

British, of cause

[Ülev]

British empire

[Root]

hands down


https://carwad.net/sites/default/files/british-flag-103933-4048188.png

[TheMaestro]

Brits lad.

[Rouxinol]

Rule, Britannia!

[Ülev]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Dutch_Empire_preWWII.PNG


But if I have to choose: I'm with the Brits.

or something like that:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Verwantschapslanden.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Verwantschapslanden.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Empire

[Ülev]

no one loves Russian Empire? how so? :rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

or something like that:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Verwantschapslanden.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Verwantschapslanden.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Empire

Imagine King Billy and Mary Stuart producing an heir to throne. The power ! Ooh the power !

[black hole]

no one loves Russian Empire? how so? :rolleyes:




Because those who voted for British empire have serious issues with Russia. :rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Martinus_Schouman_-_Het_bombardement_van_Algiers.jpg

http://www.ancientpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/gibraltarbritishforces11.jpg

Huzzah for the Grand Alliance !

[Teutone]

I respect the Russian Empire

But the Brittish Empire is next to the Roman Empire, the biggest, most influencial and strongest we ever witnessed.


https://youtu.be/K73E-rQZveY

[Smaug]

British, obviously.

[Ülev]

Because those who voted for British empire have serious issues with Russia. :rolleyes:

what can I buy for it?
https://a.uguu.se/3Zq2AOoskNe6_ruble.jpg

https://a.uguu.se/KoKKVvMxtz8g_rubel.jpg

[Smeagol]

The British Empire was the greatest civilizing force in world history.

[Dominator]

Russian.
The British were racist empire and so on..

[Kaspias]

Russian

[Swept Under]

British Empire.

[Óttar]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Flag_of_the_British_East_India_Company_%281801%29. svg/2000px-Flag_of_the_British_East_India_Company_%281801%29. svg.png

[Crimean]

Of course, the Russian Empire.
The reason for the negative attitude towards RE of many people is that in 1850-60, after the Crimean War (historians also call it World War 0), Russia became a cryptocolony of the British Empire, and was ruled by Western puppets, the "Romanovs".
It was then that such charms as capitalism, interest rate, looting and exploitation of the population, the replacement of science with fake began to appear in Russia (and all over the world).
The British-kike Empire did not disappear, it colonized the whole world. All the wars of the 20th century were the colonization of the world, the collapse of the previous world order, the transition to a backward raw economy and the rewriting of history.
I do not understand why people admire the British Empire so much. If it were not for the Stalinist Soviet Union, because of which the West was forced to respect its working class at least a little in order to avoid a Revolution, most of us would have been “optimized” long ago as unnecessary costs.
Now it is a matter of time, because after 1991 the world is heading to hell with 10 times faster than before. Unless a miracle happens.

[Veles]

https://i.ibb.co/fHxb7rF/s1200.jpg (https://ibb.co/1Tm3xRQ)

[Crimean]

https://i.ibb.co/fHxb7rF/s1200.jpg (https://ibb.co/1Tm3xRQ)
Western f*cking "gentleman".

[black hole]

also, unofficially Brits were pro-Nazi and have ties with Germany in WW2.


http://www.ddoughty.com/uploads/1/4/0/9/14095491/1445410759.png

[black hole]

what can I buy for it?
https://a.uguu.se/3Zq2AOoskNe6_ruble.jpg

https://a.uguu.se/KoKKVvMxtz8g_rubel.jpg






Weird question. That currency does not exist.

[Crimean]

Weird question. That currency does not exist.
It is quite expensive in the numismatic market. It should be enough for weekly subsistence, if not much chic)).

[Veles]

Western f*cking "gentleman".
I think the natives in shackles were not angels, they loved to eat the British.:)

[Crimean]

I think the natives in shackles were not angels, they loved to eat the British.:)
But it turned out to be strictly the opposite: this “civilized” person ate them all.

[Ülev]

stop that :rolleyes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#See_also

[Ice]

if you are wasp = british empire

if you are tsar/aristocrat/german(living in russia) = russian empire

[Ülev]

Weird question. That currency does not exist.

meanwhile in another reality:
You can exchange old banknotes in two ways https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/exchanging-old-banknotes
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/withdrawn-banknotes

[Veles]

But it turned out to be strictly the opposite: this “civilized” person ate them all.
Today, these" civilizers " heroes only on the Internet. The descendants of the same guys in shackles to freely rule on the streets of London.
https://i.ibb.co/wcZCsb4/310082-1920x1080x500.jpg (https://ibb.co/fDVtvKH)

[Crimean]

Today, these" civilizers " heroes only on the Internet. The descendants of the same guys in shackles to freely rule on the streets of London.
Even women from "civilizers" nations are no longer interested in their men.
Apparently, excessive civilization harms male attractiveness)).

[Not a Cop]

Of course, the Russian Empire.
The reason for the negative attitude towards RE of many people is that in 1850-60, after the Crimean War (historians also call it World War 0), Russia became a cryptocolony of the British Empire, and was ruled by Western puppets, the "Romanovs".
It was then that such charms as capitalism, interest rate, looting and exploitation of the population, the replacement of science with fake began to appear in Russia (and all over the world).
The British-kike Empire did not disappear, it colonized the whole world. All the wars of the 20th century were the colonization of the world, the collapse of the previous world order, the transition to a backward raw economy and the rewriting of history.
I do not understand why people admire the British Empire so much. If it were not for the Stalinist Soviet Union, because of which the West was forced to respect its working class at least a little in order to avoid a Revolution, most of us would have been “optimized” long ago as unnecessary costs.
Now it is a matter of time, because after 1991 the world is heading to hell with 10 times faster than before. Unless a miracle happens.

I think that you've read a bit too much of Galkovsky.

[Crimean]

I think that you've read a bit too much of Galkovsky.
I did not read Galkovsky, but I heard about him.
In any case, capitalism and the Anglo-Jewish banking system is alien to the Russians (and for the rest of the “colonized” and "trophy" nations) and is a protracted leap into the grave.

[Not a Cop]

I did not read Galkovsky, but I heard about him.
In any case, capitalism and the Anglo-Jewish banking system is alien to the Russians (and for the rest of the “colonized” and "trophy" nations) and is a protracted leap into the grave.

It may be alien, but i haven't heard of any other banking system so far.

[Crimean]

It may be alien, but i haven't heard of any other banking system so far.
If the economy is not built on the basis of loan interest (as was the case in Russia until the mid-19th century), then banks are not needed at all.
Look at the "Diary of a Writer" by Dostoevsky, dated 1877.
Here are brief excerpts:
https://cont.ws/@cuneum/297537

[GreentheViper]

British

[ooops]

The British Empire is responsible for more death, genocide, exploitation, slavery, displacement than any other empire or country in human history. Brits killed natives in India, America, Australia, New Zealand , South Africa and destroyed their culture. Russians are not that evil

[The Lawspeaker]

The answer can quite easily be found in what both empires actually ended up producing: the Russians gave their occupied peoples neither a functioning law, a working civil non-corrupt civil apparatus, a culture or anything of actual value. We can only look at Finland and the Baltic which remained poor until the 1960s an 1990s respectively. Ukraine and Central Asia were left a howling wasteland. Whereas the Africans destroyed the system the British left them, we can see the British legacy in Ireland's laws, civil service, system of government, police etc. The same applies to Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Canada, Singapore, Gibraltar, Malta, South Africa (until the blacks took over) and, dare I say it, the United States. British liberal political theories also became the bedrock of many continental political theories: political theorists all over Western Europe can reach back at the likes of Hobbes, who is in his pessimism, created the conditions for the codified power of the State, Locke and those who came afterwards. Science finds many of its modern origins in the likes of Newton, philosophers can look up at Hume.

I think it's pretty clear who won this race. The British did a lot of damage but they also gave a lot. The Russians did a lot of damage... and then some more damage and, simply, left it at that. And before someone mentions Poland: the wealthiest and most developed parts of Poland were the areas that had belonged to AH-Empire and to Prussia/Germany.

[Morena]

or something like that:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Verwantschapslanden.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Verwantschapslanden.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Empire

Sometimes, I wish the Dutch still owned New Amsterdam.

[The Lawspeaker]

Sometimes, I wish the Dutch still owned New Amsterdam.

I think that a permanent Anglo-Dutch Union in case of an heir produced by King William III would have been rather interesting.

[Chelubey]

The answer can quite easily be found in what both empires actually ended up producing: the Russians gave their occupied peoples neither a functioning law, a working civil non-corrupt civil apparatus, a culture or anything of actual value. We can only look at Finland and the Baltic which remained poor until the 1960s an 1990s respectively. Ukraine and Central Asia were left a howling wasteland. Whereas the Africans destroyed the system the British left them, we can see the British legacy in Ireland's laws, civil service, system of government, police etc. The same applies to Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Canada, Singapore, Gibraltar, Malta, South Africa (until the blacks took over) and, dare I say it, the United States. British liberal political theories also became the bedrock of many continental political theories: political theorists all over Western Europe can reach back at the likes of Hobbes, who is in his pessimism, created the conditions for the codified power of the State, Locke and those who came afterwards. Science finds many of its modern origins in the likes of Newton, philosophers can look up at Hume.

I think it's pretty clear who won this race. The British did a lot of damage but they also gave a lot. The Russians did a lot of damage... and then some more damage and, simply, left it at that. And before someone mentions Poland: the wealthiest and most developed parts of Poland were the areas that had belonged to AH-Empire and to Prussia/Germany.

You have a very adequate perception of Russia, despite you are a foreigner.

[The Lawspeaker]

also, unofficially Brits were pro-Nazi and have ties with Germany in WW2.


http://www.ddoughty.com/uploads/1/4/0/9/14095491/1445410759.png
Must be difficult for you to keep uniforms apart. That's a picture dating back to WWI. I would say somewhere after 1916.

It's a very clear example of an M1916 Stahlhelm which would no longer have been in use in the German Army at the earliest after the roll-out of the M1918 after 1918 and at the latest after the introduction of M1935 and M1940 which you know so well. The M1916 would still have been in service with the army of a country that sent you crying for your mommy back in 1939: Finland.

He is wearing some sort of an overcoat but this what he, very likely, would have been wearing:

https://thehistorybunker.co.uk/image/cache/catalog/1German1916-875x1000.jpg

And this is the helmet and the uniform that you know so well:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Duitse_militaire_Stahlhelm_M.35%2C_grijsgroen_met_ rijkswapen%2C_leren_binnenhelm_en_kinriem_met_gesp _050551.JPG

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k-YudRuo4Ag/VpeFDeQjXSI/AAAAAAABjic/GRCFOXYRGgc/s1600/german%2Bwehrmacht%2Bnazi%2Bsoldiers.jpg


There is almost 30 years between the two. As for calling the British pro-Nazi. Ribbentrop/Molotov, anyone ?

[Rumata]

Without stating the preference, I'd like to name an interesting fact: the two empires had a borderline in Central Asia which was shaped as the result of their confrontation. See: Panjdeh incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjdeh_incident). That borderline still separates Tajiks and Uzbeks who then have been devided. Now previously Russian Tajiks live in Tajikistan and previously Russian Uzbeks in Uzbekistan. And Tajiks and Uzbeks who were in British zone of influence now live in Afganistan.

They also had a borderline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Saint_Petersburg_(1825)) in North America but that part was very sparsely populated.

[Not a Cop]

The answer can quite easily be found in what both empires actually ended up producing: the Russians gave their occupied peoples neither a functioning law, a working civil non-corrupt civil apparatus, a culture or anything of actual value. We can only look at Finland and the Baltic which remained poor until the 1960s an 1990s respectively. Ukraine and Central Asia were left a howling wasteland. Whereas the Africans destroyed the system the British left them, we can see the British legacy in Ireland's laws, civil service, system of government, police etc. The same applies to Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Canada, Singapore, Gibraltar, Malta, South Africa (until the blacks took over) and, dare I say it, the United States. British liberal political theories also became the bedrock of many continental political theories: political theorists all over Western Europe can reach back at the likes of Hobbes, who is in his pessimism, created the conditions for the codified power of the State, Locke and those who came afterwards. Science finds many of its modern origins in the likes of Newton, philosophers can look up at Hume.

I think it's pretty clear who won this race. The British did a lot of damage but they also gave a lot. The Russians did a lot of damage... and then some more damage and, simply, left it at that. And before someone mentions Poland: the wealthiest and most developed parts of Poland were the areas that had belonged to AH-Empire and to Prussia/Germany.

Well, while you are right in some of your statements i beg to differ you to defferinate between Russian Empire and Soviet Union. I would reccomend you to read on the History of Russian Empire in 1850-1917 years, it's pretty amazing how much progress there were done.

BTW as for Finland you may be also intereted to read on Finnish orientation towards SU in second half of XX.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, while you are right in some of your statements i beg to differ you to defferinate between Russian Empire and Soviet Union. I would reccomend you to read on the History of Russian Empire in 1850-1917 years, it's pretty amazing how much progress there were done.

BTW as for Finland you may be also intereted to read on Finnish orientation towards SU in second half of XX.

I'd say that the Soviet Union was just the old Russian Empire under a red veneer. As for Finland ? They were Finlandised. They became effectively a puppet regime and they are that to this very day.

[Not a Cop]

I'd say that the Soviet Union was just the old Russian Empire under a red veneer. As for Finland ? They were Finlandised. They became effectively a puppet regime and they are that to this very day.

Well Soviet Union was just as much a Russian Empire as Reichskommissariat Niederlande was Netherlands.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I much prefer Russia to UK, but nobody comes close to British Empire.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well Soviet Union was just as much a Russian Empire as Reichskommissariat Niederlande was Netherlands.

Hardly. The Soviet Union wasn't occupied. The Soviet Union occupied. They weren't victims but perpetrators.

[Catarinense1998]

Russian Empire's flag looks very cool. Is it St. George kiling the dragon?

[Kess]

British is far better

[Teutone]

Must be difficult for you to keep uniforms apart. That's a picture dating back to WWI. I would say somewhere after 1916.

It's a very clear example of an M1916 Stahlhelm which would no longer have been in use in the German Army at the earliest after the roll-out of the M1918 after 1918 and at the latest after the introduction of M1935 and M1940 which you know so well. The M1916 would still have been in service with the army of a country that sent you crying for your mommy back in 1939: Finland.

He is wearing some sort of an overcoat but this what he, very likely, would have been wearing:

https://thehistorybunker.co.uk/image/cache/catalog/1German1916-875x1000.jpg

And this is the helmet and the uniform that you know so well:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Duitse_militaire_Stahlhelm_M.35%2C_grijsgroen_met_ rijkswapen%2C_leren_binnenhelm_en_kinriem_met_gesp _050551.JPG

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k-YudRuo4Ag/VpeFDeQjXSI/AAAAAAABjic/GRCFOXYRGgc/s1600/german%2Bwehrmacht%2Bnazi%2Bsoldiers.jpg


There is almost 30 years between the two. As for calling the British pro-Nazi. Ribbentrop/Molotov, anyone ?

Lol even if it was WW2, how stupid you gotta be to connect with a nation?

2 indivuals that respect eachother as soldiers and civilized westerners.

[The Lawspeaker]

Lol even if it was WW2, how stupid you gotta be to connect with a nation?

2 indivuals that respect eachother as soldiers and civilized westerners.

Exactly. I am sure there were plenty of Soviet soldiers and German soldiers smoking a cigarette in no man's land when the officers (or NKVD- NSDAP twats) weren't looking.

[Blondie]

British Empire was better

[Not a Cop]

Hardly. The Soviet Union wasn't occupied. The Soviet Union occupied. They weren't victims but perpetrators.

Soviet Union was an occupier of Russian Empire (not all of it though), the fact that it had occupied other territories doen't mean that Russsia wasn't occupied in the first place.

[The Lawspeaker]

Soviet Union was an occupier of Russian Empire (not all of it though, the fact that it had occupied other territories doen't mean that Russsia wasn't occupied in the first place.

Not at all. The Russians have no reason to claim a victim status here as they followed a policy of ethnic replacement in the countries they occupied (like in the Baltic and in those parts of Finland they occupied or in Ukraine, Moldavia or in Central Asia. All were subjected to forced population transfers and intense enforced Russification. The Soviet Union was nothing more than the the Russian Empire 2.0 under a red banner with a General Secretary of the CPSU replacing the Czar.

[Not a Cop]

Not at all. The Russians have no reason to claim a victim status here as they followed a policy of ethnic replacement in the countries they occupied (like in the Baltic and in those parts of Finland they occupied or in Ukraine, Moldavia or in Central Asia. All were subjected to forced population transfers and intense enforced Russification.

Yes, and Dutch followed the policy of Holocaust towards Jews, served in SS and Wermacht, probably participated in resettling of Poland etc. etc.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, and Dutch followed the policy of Holocaust towards Jews, served in SS and Wermacht, probably participated in resettling of Poland etc. etc.

There is a difference between those Dutch serving in the SS (20.000 in total) and the Russians in the respect that the USSR was the nation. Those Dutch serving in the SS served a foreign country while their legitimate government was in London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_government-in-exile). But you probably have never heard of it. In other words: the USSR was the legal successor of the Russian Empire, the German occupation of the Netherlands does not hold that legal position and the London Government formed the official continuation of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in exile as the sole legitimate government.

Those who served in the German army (because that's what the "Dutch" regiments: part of the German SS) receive German pensions and cannot claim Dutch citizenship (since they forfeited it and, in fact, many tried after the war - with many serving long prison times or even faced the firing squad), those who served in the USSR receive their pensions from the Russian government and are Russian citizens. In other words: the German-occupied Netherlands has no legal position in the present Netherlands, whereas the USSR was the legal successor of the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the USSR. Had Russia been occupied by the USSR, then Putin would never have been president since he would never have been a Russian citizen but, legally speaking, a traitor to Russia.

No Dutchman who served in the German SS could ever run for office in this country because he isn't a Dutch citizen --- but in Russia, your own president, who served in the KGB (the Secret Service of the USSR) is now president of the Russian Federation.

[Not a Cop]

There is a difference between those Dutch serving in the SS (20.000 in total) and the Russians in the respect that the USSR was the nation. Those Dutch serving in the SS served a foreign country while their legitimate government was in London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_government-in-exile). But you probably have never heard of it. In other words: the USSR was the legal successor of the Russian Empire, the German occupation of the Netherlands does not hold that legal position.

Those who served in the German army (because that's what the "Dutch" regiments: part of the German SS) receive German pensions and cannot claim Dutch citizenship (since they forfeited it), those who served in the USSR receive their pensions from the Russian government and are Russian citizens. In other words: the German-occupied Netherlands has no legal position in the present Netherlands, whereas the USSR was the legal successor of the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the USSR.

No Dutchman who served in the German SS could ever run for office in this country because he isn't a Dutch citizen --- but in Russia, your own president, who served in the KGB (the Secret Service of the USSR) is now president of the Russian Federation.

While Russian Federation is indeed a legal successor of Soviet Union, you can't tell the same about the Russian Empire, of which we are talking.

As for goverment in-exile i'm perfectly aware of it, however you seem to ignore the fact that a great amount of russian upper class was either exiled or killed by the soviets.

Just compare :

1. Forcefull banishing or killing of officials.
2. Ban on taking the public service not only for officials themself, but for their kids and other family members.
3. Complete renewal of every mid or high tier public servants and great renewal in low ranks.

Not tell me, how could USSR be a successor and not an occupier?

[Phenix]

Russia for 1001 blyat reason.

[The Lawspeaker]

While Russian Federation is indeed a legal successor of Soviet Union, you can't tell the same about the Russian Empire, of which we are talking.

As for goverment in-exile i'm perfectly aware of it, however you seem to ignore the fact that a great amount of russian upper class was either exiled or killed by the soviets.

Just compare :

1. Forcefull banishing or killing of officials.
2. Ban on taking the public service not only for officials themself, but for their kids and other family members.
3. Complete renewal of every mid or high tier public servants and great renewal in low ranks.

Not tell me, how could USSR be a successor and not an occupier?

Then you are telling me that the Russian State as it existed in 1917 no longer exists today and fell to be a complete debellatio and that the formation of the Russian Federation in 1991 is the result of a debellatio without a declared state of war ? Then we can conclude that there is no such thing as a Russian state as it ceased to exist in 1917 ?

Now, if there is a connection between the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation and the USSR was an occupation force that would mean that no former communist officials may serve, in any capacity, in the modern Russian government as they served an illegitimate regime or occupation force. So that would mean, in theory, that someone like Putin should be charged under Article 275 of the Criminal Code because he willingly and knowingly served an occupation force of his country and should therefore be considered a traitor ?

So we're having two options: either the Russian state ceased to exist in 1917 which could make the legitimacy of the Russian state as it exists since the fall of the USSR seem questionable at best and since someone like Putin served an occupation force that is directly responsible for the destruction of the Russian state in 1917, that would make him a traitor who served a foreign occupier.

Or, there is a continuity between the Russian Empire, the USSR and the Russian Federation which makes the Russians complicit to what has been carried out in their name. There are simply no other flavors available.

[Not a Cop]

Then you are telling me that the Russian State as it existed in 1917 no longer exists today

Yes.



and fell to be a complete debellatio and that the formation of the Russian Federation in 1991 is the result of a debellatio without a declared state of war ? Then we can conclude that there is no such thing as a Russian state as it ceased to exist in 1917 ?

Formation of RF is not a result of debelltio, although war was obviously there, the cold war.



Now, if there is a connection between the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation and the USSR was an occupation force that would mean that no former communist officials may serve, in any capacity, in the modern Russian government as they served an illegitimate regime or occupation force.

There is very little if any conneciton between RE and RF. RF essentially is a slightly reformed version of the SU.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes.
That would mean that there is, de jure, no such thing as a Russia.




Formation of RF is not a result of debelltio, although war was obviously there, the cold war.
But the USSR seized to exist as an entity. One could consider that a form of debellatio without the territories of the USSR being subsumed by the West but with the whole system simply disintegrating.



There is very little if any conneciton between RE and RF. RF essentially is a slightly reformed version of the SU.

Indeed. But if the USSR was an occupation force, then that would mean that those serving that regime (in any capacity) are, essentially, no different from those Dutch who served in the Waffen-SS. That would make Putin, essentially, no different from someone who served in the Waffen-SS.

[Mingle]

While Russian Federation is indeed a legal successor of Soviet Union, you can't tell the same about the Russian Empire, of which we are talking.

Wasn't the RF created by declaring independence from the USSR?

[The Lawspeaker]

Wasn't the RF created by declaring independence from the USSR?

Indeed it was. So that would make Putin someone who served a foreign occupation force. (And that would apply to most civil servants as well on a level much higher than anyone collaborating here although civil servants had remained in place - by orders of the legitimate government that had prepared such orders back in.. I believe 1938 (so two years before the German invasion) in order to prevent societal disorder from occurring and I believe that the Russian Imperial Government never issued such orders which makes any and all collaboration with the USSR regime an act of treason).

[Not a Cop]

Wasn't the RF created by declaring independence from the USSR?


RF never declared it's independace from USSR, RSFR did. However there is two things to consider:

1. RF is legitemate successor of USSR in all forms.

2. Brealing of soviet union was an anti-constitutional act as it was againt the will of people by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum


That would mean that there is, de jure, no such thing as a Russia.


That's true.



But the USSR seized to exist as an entity. One could consider that a form of debellatio without the territories of the USSR being subsumed by the West but with the whole system simply disintegrating.


It's in no man's land IMO, as it was the unique case of being defeated in cold war and should be treated as such.






Indeed. But if the USSR was an occupation force, then that would mean that those serving that regime (in any capacity) are, essentially, no different from those Dutch who served in the Waffen-SS. That would make Putin, essentially, no different from someone who served in the Waffen-SS.

De Jure yes.

[Veles]

Indeed it was. So that would make Putin someone who served a foreign occupation force. (And that would apply to most civil servants as well on a level much higher than anyone collaborating here although civil servants had remained in place - by orders of the legitimate government that had prepared such orders back in.. I believe 1938 (so two years before the German invasion) in order to prevent societal disorder from occurring and I believe that the Russian Imperial Government never issued such orders which makes any and all collaboration with the USSR regime an act of treason).
My Ukrainian friend, are you crazy about your Nazism? You disguise yourself as a Dutchman and think no one will recognize you. Ukrainians and Russian brothers. Many Russians have Ukrainian blood. Many Ukrainians have Russian blood. For example, I have 1/4 of North-Eastern Ukraine. The modern problem of relations between Ukraine and Russia is not a conflict of ordinary people, it is a conflict of rich people who are not Russians and are not Ukrainians by nationality. You write from Dutch ebeney and what would you want to believe you're a Dutchman, with your Eastern European awareness.

[The Lawspeaker]

RF never declared it's independace from USSR, RSFR did. However there is two things to consider:

1. RF is legitemate successor of USSR in all forms.

2. Brealing of soviet union was an anti-constitutional act as it was againt the will of people by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum

But how legitimate is that claim ? And how legitimate is a USSR referendum. Note: the term "Soviet election" is often used to denote an election with a highly improbably result because those elections would have been highly fraudulent and that referendum would then have been no different.



That's true.

It's in no man's land IMO, as it was the unique case of being defeated in cold war and should be treated as such.
That means that the Russians may have the unique opportunity to start a state anew without the laws of an occupation force or its officials. After all: the Imperial Government never issued an order for civil servants to remain in place and thus, all that served the new regime, betrayed Russia. The question is now: are there any potentially legal successors of the House of Romanov still alive ?






De Jure yes.
That means that this man should not be in office... but in a prison cell.

[The Lawspeaker]

My Ukrainian friend, are you crazy about your Nazism? You disguise yourself as a Dutchman and think no one will recognize you. Ukrainians and Russian brothers. Many Russians have Ukrainian blood. Many Ukrainians have Russian blood. For example, I have 1/4 of North-Eastern Ukraine. The modern problem of relations between Ukraine and Russia is not a conflict of ordinary people, it is a conflict of rich people who are not Russians and are not Ukrainians by nationality. You write from Dutch ebeney and what would you want to believe you're a Dutchman, with your Eastern European awareness.

Grow up.

[Ülev]

Oost west, thuis best

[The Lawspeaker]

Oost west, thuis best

En zo is't maar net !

[The Lawspeaker]

But how legitimate is that claim ? And how legitimate is a USSR referendum. Note: the term "Soviet election" is often used to denote an election with a highly improbably result because those elections would have been highly fraudulent and that referendum would then have been no different.



That means that the Russians may have the unique opportunity to start a state anew without the laws of an occupation force or its officials. After all: the Imperial Government never issued an order for civil servants to remain in place and thus, all that served the new regime, betrayed Russia. The question is now: are there any potentially legal successors of the House of Romanov still alive ?






That means that this man should not be in office... but in a prison cell.

And before I forget: was there ever a Russian government-in-exile which could mean that there was some continuity of government ?

[Magnolia]

To choose for what? Both empires committed a lot of evil in the past.
Life is more comfortable in lands that are still ruled by Brits of course ...

[Not a Cop]

But how legitimate is that claim ? And how legitimate is a USSR referendum. Note: the term "Soviet election" is often used to denote an election with a highly improbably result because those elections would have been highly fraudulent and that referendum would then have been no different.


Legitimacy is not something you have to prove to yourself, but to others, UN, USA etc. all agreed other the legitimacy of RF succession.

As for referendum it may sound shocking to you, but late Perestroika-times USSR and early RF was a very democratic state, you can easily google the exist polls and such things about the reffendum, it shoved the real will of the citizens of USSR.



That means that the Russians may have the unique opportunity to start a state anew without the laws of an occupation force or its officials. After all: the Imperial Government never issued an order for civil servants to remain in place and thus, all that served the new regime, betrayed Russia. The question is now: are there any potentially legal successors of the House of Romanov still alive ?


Rather had than have. You know the situation nowdays.






That means that this man should not be in office... but in a prison cell.

As a citizen of RF and only (Germans are fucking slow with their resettlement stuff) i could only say to you the russian figure of speech - I didn't pull your tongue.

[Not a Cop]

And before I forget: was there ever a Russian government-in-exile which could mean that there was some continuity of government ?

There were and not only one. Here is one example, use google translate. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%81% D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82

[The Lawspeaker]

Legitimacy is not something you have to prove to yourself, but to others, UN, USA etc. all agreed other the legitimacy of RF succession.

As for referendum it may sound shocking to you, but late Perestroika-times USSR and early RF was a very democratic state, you can easily google the exist polls and such things about the reffendum, it shoved the real will of the citizens of USSR.
Interesting. I wasn't aware that democratic reforms had taken place. This because the early RF was about as democratic as the older USSR.




Rather had than have. You know the situation nowdays.
A missed opportunity, I reckon.







As a citizen of RF and only (Germans are fucking slow with their resettlement stuff) i could only say to you the russian figure of speech - I didn't pull your tongue.
I guess that the idea of restoring the monarchy is pretty much dead now. Although, I suppose that a constitutional monarchy (first under the old rules while a new constitution is drafted that would make it a constitutional monarchy) would put the country more in line with several European countries and make them seen as less alien. As for Putin... he is effectively a traitor and traitors should get a traitor's wage. I can imagine what the punishments under Imperial Law in 1917 would have been like.

[Not a Cop]

Interesting. I wasn't aware that democratic reforms had taken place. This because the early RF was about as democratic as the older USSR.




A missed opportunity, I reckon.






I guess that the idea of restoring the monarchy is pretty much dead now. Although, I suppose that a constitutional monarchy (first under the old rules while a new constitution is drafted that would make it a constitutional monarchy) would put the country more in line with several European countries and make them seen as less alien. As for Putin... he is effectively a traitor and traitors should get a traitor's wage. I can imagine what the punishments under Imperial Law in 1917 would have been like.

Imperial law was not very harsh actualy, compared to USSR laws f.e., some see it as one of reasons for failure of the Empire.

As for monarchy ther is an anecdote circulating among local inteligentsia - Whichever goverment russians start to build it's always a theocratic monarchy in the end, so maybe we should start to build the it not to fail atleast?

[The Lawspeaker]

There were and not only one. Here is one example, use google translate. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%81% D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82

That would leave me to conclude that there was a legitimate Russian government but this is neither in the shape of the RF or the USSR. and that it was the international recognition of the USSR (an error of the worst kind) that led to the end of the legitimate government.

[The Lawspeaker]

Imperial law was not very harsh actualy, compared to USSR laws f.e., some see it as one of reasons for failure of the Empire.

As for monarchy ther is an anecdote circulating among local inteligentsia - Whichever goverment russians start to build it's always a theocratic monarchy in the end, so maybe we should start to build the it not to fail atleast?
You would almost say that they would be better off copying some Western European constitution for the role of the monarchy. Britain (doesn't have a written constitution)'s role in regards to the monarch as the Head of the Church is an interesting role for a Russian monarch. The idea of a theocratic monarchy is troublesome as it still wouldn't give people the right to run their own affairs but, at least, they would be under a legitimate government.

In Western Europe most remaining monarchies (I think Monaco and Liechtenstein are exceptions as the head of state has more executive rights) are, for all intents and purposes, crowned republics.

[The Lawspeaker]

If the USSR and the RF (as its successor) are both illegitimate, that would mean that either there is no constitution (the Kerensky government scrapped the 1906 constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constitution_of_1906#Abolition_of_the_1906 _constitution)) or there is one in the form of the 1906 constitution. That could create a headache when it comes to surrounding countries but it would still be workable if those articles are repealed while a new constitution is written and the legal situation of the successor states of the Russian Empire is sorted diplomatically.

That would mean that there is only one real Russia: the Russian Empire as was overthrown in 1917 and the new Russian state that should be formed from it should therefore be its successor as the other regimes were/are illegitimate.

[Veles]

To choose for what? Both empires committed a lot of evil in the past.
Life is more comfortable in lands that are still ruled by Brits of course ...
If you were born African, Indian, native Australian and lived in The British Empire of the 18th and 19th centuries, would life be comfortable for you? The Russian Empire in 18-19 centuries the same shit.

[The Lawspeaker]

If you were born African, Indian, native Australian and lived in The British Empire of the 18th and 19th centuries, would life be comfortable for you? The Russian Empire in 18-19 centuries the same shit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUwmA3Q0_OE

This is how bad life was for them: 3.54 - focus particularly on Africa and you see the effects that modern Western medicine, improved agricultural techniques (food surpluses) and increased hygiene are having. There were more Indians in 1947 than there had been two centuries before, more Africans as well... even more Aborigines.

[Rumata]

I guess that the idea of restoring the monarchy is pretty much dead now.

As another Russian saying goes: the holy place is never empty.

http://ruspravda.info/images/thumbs/9486_448_420_1.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

As another Russian saying goes: the holy place is never empty.

http://ruspravda.info/images/thumbs/9486_448_420_1.jpg

Putin is a man who served your occupiers, remember ? Perhaps it takes a Russian to worship the hand that does the whipping. Here we used to shoot them.

[Rumata]

Putin is a man who served your occupiers, remember ? Perhaps it takes a Russian to worship the hand that does the whipping. Here we used to shoot them.

I personally don't want any tsar were that Romanov, Putin or any other. The crucial difference between them is that Putin (unfortunately) does have the power at the moment.

[The Lawspeaker]

I personally don't want any tsar were that Romanov, Putin or any other. The crucial difference between them is that Putin (unfortunately) does have the power at the moment.

In other words: an actual republic.

[Rumata]

In other words: an actual republic.

Yes, I'm fine with a republic of a truly functioning democracy (elections totally transparent to everyone). Also, I'm fine with the productive part of population having political weight in the system.

[Marco94]

The Empire on which the sun never sets!

(even though I'm part Russian and have nothing to do with Brits lol)

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, I'm fine with a republic of a truly functioning democracy (totally transparent to everyone elections). Also, I'm fine with the productive part of population having political weight in the system.

There you go. It would be a step away from the kleptocracy you've had since the days of the Mongols.

[Rumata]

There you go. It would be a step away from the kleptocracy you've had since the days of the Mongols.

Yeah, Mongols were the last rulers who didn't steal :cool:

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah, Mongols were the last rulers who didn't steal :cool:

As in meaning: you were actually ruining your own affairs.

[Dna8]

Yeah, Mongols were the last rulers who didn't steal :cool:

Opa!

[Rumata]

As in meaning: you were actually ruining your own affairs.

I don't think that by "ruining your own affairs" it would be possible to achieve this:



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Russian_Empire_at_it%27s_greatest_extent_%281866%2 9.png

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't think that by "ruining your own affairs" it would be possible to achieve this:

Just conquering lands and then leaving them to rot isn't exactly productive. Look at your country, look at your infrastructure, look at your quality of life, your economic situation ---- and for all our problems in the West: look at the quality of the infrastructure in Switzerland or the Netherlands and our quality of life. Compare the two.

[Rumata]

Opa!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFmGdR-EpJE

[Lemon Kush]

no one loves Russian Empire? how so? :rolleyes:

The Russian royal family is mixed with other western European royal families, this includes the British one

[The Lawspeaker]

The Russian royal family is mixed with other western European royal families, this includes the British one
The House of Orange can claim indirect descent but its through the female line so invalid. William II of the Netherlands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_II_of_the_Netherlands) was married to Anna Pavlovna of Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Pavlovna_of_Russia). For all his ills, he sure was a good King and she was a good Queen. It's funny how , particularly the King, was a(is !) much more popular down South - particular in Tilburg where his former (modest) palace is now the town hall and where the local football club is named after him. Why ? Because he is the only monarch we've ever had who gave a damn about the South.

[Rumata]

Just conquering lands and then leaving them to rot isn't exactly productive. Look at your country, look at your infrastructure, look at your quality of life, your economic situation ---- and for all our problems in the West: look at the quality of the infrastructure in Switzerland or the Netherlands and our quality of life. Compare the two.

You can find a bit about achievements of RE here:
https://voegelinview.com/russian-empire-major-accomplishments/

And about Soviet achievements here:
http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc1212/ussr.htm

[The Lawspeaker]

You can find a bit about achievements of RE here:
https://voegelinview.com/russian-empire-major-accomplishments/

And about Soviet achievements here:
http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc1212/ussr.htm
That's all beautiful but take a look outside and you know how people live like in Russia. Those beautiful lists of "achievements" don't matter a damn when the bulk of your population is living in squalor.

[Rumata]

That's all beautiful but take a look outside and you know how people live like in Russia. Those beautiful lists of "achievements" don't matter a damn when the bulk of your population is living in squalor.

I have to admit that RF is a step backward. Concerning "squalor", you can find plenty of it in such Western countries like USA too...

[The Lawspeaker]

I have to admit that RF is a step backward. Concerning "squalor", you can find it in such Western countries like USA too...
Oh yes. Believe me: I have nothing positive to say about the U.S social policies. It's either penny-pinching or throwing with money in order to get some cheap votes. Nothing consistent but Russia, a country which claims to love its people, is doing an absolutely god-awful job.

[pulstar]

British empire for more than obvious reasons.

[MinervaItalica]

Those maps mean little to nothing. They never held all those territories at once.

In any case Russians is the coolest for me (between those two options), i'm interested more in its history and nobility than the Britain one.

British was a colonial Empire.

[Crimean]

Oh yes. Believe me: I have nothing positive to say about the U.S social policies. It's either penny-pinching or throwing with money in order to get some cheap votes. Nothing consistent but Russia, a country which claims to love its people, is doing an absolutely god-awful job.
Here you are absolutely right. As you have noticed, we are basically nostalgic for the USSR and earlier times, but not a normal Russian would think soberly about praising the current oligarchic-kleptocratic neocolonial cannibalistic regime.
Although by and large to divide the capitalist states into good and bad is stupid, they all have a cannibalistic nature. You can also forget about the breakthrough development of technologies and space as long as monopolies and private interests exist. So we are doomed to buy iPhones 1 mm thinner than the previous model and die out by hundreds of thousands a year, and will being replaced by robots and Chinese (which is almost the same).
The situation is hopeless, we (and you) will be helped only by the coming to power of patriotic-conservative forces and a complete cleansing of the leftists (Stalin understood them as “enemies of the people”, by the way).

[Ülev]

nostalgia for childhood

[Ülev]

and I have heard once wise words - do not get me wrong:
little person lives in the past
brave chooses the future
:p

[Teutone]

Here you are absolutely right. As you have noticed, we are basically nostalgic for the USSR and earlier times, but not a normal Russian would think soberly about praising the current oligarchic-kleptocratic neocolonial cannibalistic regime.
Although by and large to divide the capitalist states into good and bad is stupid, they all have a cannibalistic nature. You can also forget about the breakthrough development of technologies and space as long as monopolies and private interests exist. So we are doomed to buy iPhones 1 mm thinner than the previous model and die out by hundreds of thousands a year, and will being replaced by robots and Chinese (which is almost the same).
The situation is hopeless, we (and you) will be helped only by the coming to power of patriotic-conservative forces and a complete cleansing of the leftists (Stalin understood them as “enemies of the people”, by the way).

You can forget about breakthrough developments? Private business unlike a government is doomed to be efficent, now we reach a time where space exploration and unlimited resources attract private companies that will like in all fields ever, achieve more than any inefficent government. Maybe in your Russian shithole you did not notice any innovations besides the iphone, but we communicate through a groundbreaking innovation right now.

Naming Staling as someone positive just disqualifies you from even taking you serious, alot of Russians are complete incapable of self criticism, you are one of them.

[The Lawspeaker]

Here you are absolutely right. As you have noticed, we are basically nostalgic for the USSR and earlier times, but not a normal Russian would think soberly about praising the current oligarchic-kleptocratic neocolonial cannibalistic regime.
Although by and large to divide the capitalist states into good and bad is stupid, they all have a cannibalistic nature. You can also forget about the breakthrough development of technologies and space as long as monopolies and private interests exist. So we are doomed to buy iPhones 1 mm thinner than the previous model and die out by hundreds of thousands a year, and will being replaced by robots and Chinese (which is almost the same).
The situation is hopeless, we (and you) will be helped only by the coming to power of patriotic-conservative forces and a complete cleansing of the leftists (Stalin understood them as “enemies of the people”, by the way).

The problem is that those people are longing "back" to a system many of which barely knew and which was about as totalitarian in its nature as the present regime. I do think that there are better states in a way that some states at least attempt to moderate the consequences. I thus both reject communism, extreme capitalism and leftism in that neither of which offer anything that's actually beneficial to the people: a national home, a sense of belonging, the change to stir politics in ways that it benefits the people (I thus also reject representative as neither being representative or democratic), a strong Rechtsstaat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat) (where people have legal recourse and where government is constrained by both law and custom) and a system where the basics for a people to thrive are covered (as those basics also allow a people to safeguard its permanent existence, in order words this means a strong welfare state, credits for family, good housing, clean and safe neighborhoods, good schools and good working conditions with fair wages)

In that respect, I'd say that Europe is in strong decline (thanks to the Left which, hypocritically, also supports robber capitalism, whereas Russia never had those conditions.

I think that while Europe is sick, Russia is dying of gangrene: they never had a social contract or a government that worked for the people as they never had to be accountable to their people. Not once in their history.

[Autrigón]

and I have heard once wise words - do not get me wrong:
little person lives in the past
brave chooses the future
:pWise words

[Teutone]

and I have heard once wise words - do not get me wrong:
little person lives in the past
brave chooses the future
:p

Problem of the right, they disconnected from reality.

Realpolitiks introduced by Bismarck is the only cure.

[Teutone]

The problem is that those people are longing "back" to a system many of which barely knew and which was about as totalitarian in its nature as the present regime. I do think that there are better states in a way that some states at least attempt to moderate the consequences. I thus both reject communism, extreme capitalism and leftism in that neither of which offer anything that's actually beneficial to the people: a national home, a sense of belonging, the change to stir politics in ways that it benefits the people (I thus also reject representative as neither being representative or democratic), a strong Rechtsstaat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat) (where people have legal recourse and where government is constrained by both law and custom) and a system where the basics for a people to thrive are covered (as those basics also allow a people to procreate in a decent manner and safeguard its permanent existence, in order words - a strong welfare state, credits for family, good housing, clean and safe neighborhoods, good schools and good working conditions and fair wages)

In that respect, I'd say that Europe is in strong decline (thanks to the Left which, hypocritically, also supports robber capitalism, whereas Russia never had those conditions.

I think that while Europe is sick, Russia is dying of gangrene: they never had a social contract or a government that worked for the people as they never had to be accountable to their people. Not once in their history.

I dont want my government to work for me but leave me alone as much as possible.

People that contribute to society by hard work are only held back and robbed by a big and expensive welfare state.

[The Lawspeaker]

I dont want my government to work for me but leave me alone as much as possible.

People that contribute to society by hard work are only held back and robbed by a big and expensive welfare state.

That's beautiful but do you want your people to thrive or do you want the population to fall (which will, at the end of the day endanger the existence of the German people) because having a family becomes a luxury while wages are set on a whim by big robber corporations. What is more important ? Freedom for the rich or your existence as a nation ?

[Autrigón]

I like the military history of Russia. They always won the battles because they had more soldiers than their opponents. The Russian tactic was send more and more soldiers to die until the enemy was tired.

[Teutone]

I like the military history of Russia. They always won the battles because they had more soldiers than their opponents. The Russian tactic was send more and more soldiers to die until the enemy was tired.

They also mostly relied on Winter.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's beautiful but do you want your people to thrive or do you want the population to fall (which will, at the end of the day endanger the existence of the German people) because having a family becomes a luxury while wages are set on a whim by big robber corporations. What is more important ? Freedom for the rich or your existence as a nation ?

It's those same rich who now get in migrants to further depress wages who vote for the CDU or feel-good leftists. So you have to choose, Teutone. Those fuckers or your people ? Pick one: you can't help both.

[Teutone]

That's beautiful but do you want your people to thrive or do you want the population to fall (which will, at the end of the day endanger the existence of the German people) because having a family becomes a luxury while wages are set on a whim by big robber corporations. What is more important ? Freedom for the rich or your existence as a nation ?

I dont see how having a family is held back by low taxes, quite the obvious. We had the highest birthrate when we had low taxes and a complete free market.

You confuse Capitalism with Corperatism that is in favor of a powerful government cause they controll it.

https://pics.me.me/capitalism-corporatism-baystate-libertarian-an-individual-has-an-idea-an-41992917.png

Companies like Bayer and any other attracted the best by have their own social policy better and more effective than any government.

[Teutone]

It's those same rich who now get in migrants to further depress wages who vote for the CDU or feel-good leftists. So you have to choose, Teutone. Those fuckers or your people ? Pick one: you can't help both.

Those companies are in bed with Merkel, in bed with the fact politics holds back anyone that can compete with them.

Thats corporatism.

[The Lawspeaker]

I dont see how having a family is held back by low taxes, quite the obvious. We had the highest birthrate when we had low taxes and a complete free market.

You confuse Capitalism with Corperatism that is in favor of a powerful government cause they controll it.

https://pics.me.me/capitalism-corporatism-baystate-libertarian-an-individual-has-an-idea-an-41992917.png

Companies like Bayer and any other attracted the best by have their own social policy better and more effective than any government.

I am sure. We only need to look at the 19th century and early 20th century when the population rose too (but half died before the age of 5) but I am not quite sure how the Berliner Hinterhöfe were particularly beneficial to the people - particularly since low taxes are actually regressive taxes as those low taxes would only go for the rich. There is no such thing as pure capitalism and it has never existed: capitalism is corporatism, corporatism is capitalism. Be it in the 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th century, corporations have always set policy and they, with their financial, resources always will. Always. It's the nature of the beast. So the above picture is absolute nonsense and Austrian economics is merely the pseudo-economic semi-philosophical excuse to destroy legislation that could, at least, have moderated it.

[Teutone]

I am sure. We only need to look at the 19th century and early 20th century when the population rose too (but half died before the age of 5) but I am not quite sure how the Berliner Hinterhöfe were particularly beneficial to the people - particularly since low taxes are actually regressive taxes as those low taxes would only go for the rich. There is no such thing as pure capitalism and it has never existed: capitalism is corporatism, corporatism is capitalism. Be it in 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th century corporations have always set policy. Always.

Because government is big enough to have a impact, on a limited government it would be useless to influence it.

Lowest taxes here were from 1949 - 1980s

I dont follow classism bullshit, like immigrants people relying on the government to fix their personal failure are a burden to society.

Equality of opportunity and not equality of outcome.

[The Lawspeaker]

Because government is big enough to have a impact, on a limited government it would be useless to influence it.

Lowest taxes here were from 1949 - 1980s

I dont follow classism bullshit, like immigrants people relying on the government to fix their personal failure are a burden to society.

Equality of opportunity and not equality of outcome.

We agree when it comes to migrants but complete economic liberalism is horseshit. It does not and cannot exist. You forget that your economic liberalism would also not ever offer equality of opportunity since only the rich could partake in economic and political life. But if you mean that we should deport the migrants and lower taxes to the rate of, let's say, the early 1960s (after the Wirtschaftswunder), than we agree. But, if we're going back to that era, we're going to have to renationalise a whole slew of businesses: in the Netherlands, the railways, telecommunication, many other transport companies (bus, tram), energy and water providers, the mail service were all owned by the State around that same era and both their rates were placed at the public's benefit and their proceeds invested into the national economy. Same goes for the vast bulk of the mines and the energy national energy sector.

[Crimean]

You can forget about breakthrough developments? Private business unlike a government is doomed to be efficent, now we reach a time where space exploration and unlimited resources attract private companies that will like in all fields ever, achieve more than any inefficent government. Maybe in your Russian shithole you did not notice any innovations besides the iphone, but we communicate through a groundbreaking innovation right now.

Naming Staling as someone positive just disqualifies you from even taking you serious, alot of Russians are complete incapable of self criticism, you are one of them.
A supporter of capitalism and a holy market economy entered the thread. And again, talk about some "efficiency." What will you do with "ineffective" people and industries? Chinese worker "more efficient" than German. Do you propose to “optimize” (kill with poverty) all ineffective ones?
And to produce goods that break down immediately after the expiration of the warranty period is also “effective”?
After 15 years, our "territories" (no longer countries) will differ little from each other, because now we are ruled by "effective" managers.
As for Stalin, he should be respected for the fact that he provided work for everyone, and not just "effective", and the people were not afraid of tomorrow. In addition, he fought with the internal enemies of the country, with those who advocated "efficiency."

[Teutone]

We agree when it comes to migrants but complete economic liberalism is horseshit. It does not and cannot exist. You forget that your economic liberalism would also not ever offer equality of opportunity since only the rich could partake in economic and political life. But if you mean that we should deport the migrants and lower taxes to the rate of, let's say, the early 1960s (after the Wirtschaftswunder), than we agree.

Well no because only government institutions can give rich the power they want since they are not playing the same game.

Look how Chile is the most developed country still, thanks to Pinochets complete unleashed Market, Franco also achieved the spanish miracle with it.

Social darwinism is needed to clean our ranks, I told you before.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well no because only government institutions can give rich the power they want since they are not playing the same game.

Look how Chile is the most developed country still, thanks to Pinochets complete unleashed Market, Franco also achieved the spanish miracle with it.

Social darwinism is needed to clean our ranks, I told you before.
Again. That's untrue because government derives its power from those who bribe it into action: in order words the rich. Actually: neither Pinochet or Franco unleashed the market - they hired foreign corporations to do the job through bribery and corruption as there was no national market. And neither the Spanish or Chileans benefited from the "economic miracle" as can be seen in the many Chileans and Spanish that had to work abroad in order to make ends meet while the currency was deprecating even faster (particularly in Chile) than under (fuck his name) Alliende. Both Spain, Argentina or Chile only benefited years after the collapse of their respective regimes when the money that was made was finally, through wage raises, granted to the people,

If you want to see Social Darwinism in action ? Look no further than the Weimar Republic or 1990s Russia and we both know where that led to.

[Teutone]

A supporter of capitalism and a holy market economy entered the thread. And again, talk about some "efficiency." What will you do with "ineffective" people and industries? Chinese worker "more efficient" than German. Do you propose to “optimize” (kill with poverty) all ineffective ones?
And to produce goods that break down immediately after the expiration of the warranty period is also “effective”?
After 15 years, our "territories" (no longer countries) will differ little from each other, because now we are ruled by "effective" managers.
As for Stalin, he should be respected for the fact that he provided work for everyone, and not just "effective", and the people were not afraid of tomorrow. In addition, he fought with the internal enemies of the country, with those who advocated "efficiency."

To Stalin there is work for everyone if you kill people in numbers like noone else except Mao, I piss on this subhuman. What Patton said about you, is very true.

China imposed free market leading to their economic development you genius, but Hong Kong puts rest of China to shame for obvious reasons.

I mean I would try to explain the differences of Corporatism and Capitalism and the ideas of Hayek to you, but you are not the Lawspeaker and therfor not capable to understand these ideas anyway.

[The Lawspeaker]

To Stalin there is work for everyone if you kill people in numbers like noone else except Mao, I piss on this subhuman. What Patton said about you, is very true.

China imposed free market leading to their economic development you genius, but Hong Kong puts rest of China to shame for obvious reasons.

I mean I would try to explain the differences of Corporatism and Capitalism and the ideas of Hayek to you, but you are not the Lawspeaker and therfor not capable to understand these ideas anyway.
There is no economic freedom in China as many of those corporations are owned by Party big wigs and the middle class is mostly formed of Party big wigs. This peasant from the province is still a peasant from the province or a low-wage worker in the city and nothing has changed for them --- except rising personal debts. Foreign corporations even have to hand over to their development to the Chinese State if they invest there. The Chinese economic miracle is another beautiful fantasy.

[Teutone]

Again. That's untrue because government derives its power from those who bribe it into action: in order words the rich. Actually: neither Pinochet or Franco unleashed the market - they hired foreign corporations to do the job through bribery and corruption as there was no national market. And neither the Spanish or Chileans benefited from the "economic miracle" as can be seen in the many Chileans and Spanish that had to work abroad in order to make ends meet while the currency was deprecating even faster (particularly in Chile) than under (fuck his name) Alliende. Both Spain, Argentina or Chile only benefited years after the collapse of their respective regimes when the money that was made was finally, through wage raised, granted to the people,

If you want to see Social Darwinism in action ? Look no further than the Weimar Republic or 1990s Russia and we both know where that led to.

Spanish had very few guest workerd abroad and fuck yeah the Spanish population was doing awesome when the spanish miracle impacted, same with the Chileneans willing to work which created a strong right wing middle class. Pinochet called the Chicago boys which were Economist helping him, best foreign aid I ever saw. Argentina suffered from Penonism which is pretty economically left.

Weimar had no social darwinism, it was fucking opressed by the versaille treaty. Russians on the other hand tasted their fruits of decades of inefficency but even before the 90s they had to wait in lines in order to get basic goods.

Are you a communist now?

[Veles]

The impression that our Dutch friend devotes all his life to thoughts about Russia and Russians. Despite the fact that the Russians do not think about it at all. Clearly guy has roots in Eastern Europe. No Dutchman or German will not spend their time and effort to collect information on Russia. I'm pretty sure this guy's Ukrainian or mixed.

[Teutone]

There is no economic freedom in China as many of those corporations are owned by Party big wigs and the middle class is mostly formed of Party big wigs. This peasant from the province is still a peasant from the province or a low-wage worker in the city and nothing has changed for them --- except rising personal debts. Foreign corporations even have to hand over to their development to the Chinese State if they invest there. The Chinese economic miracle is another beautiful fantasy.

Foreign corperations take advantage of a big government, what I told you about this before?

Yes China has a free market, there is no planned economy whatsoever left there. If you are chinese and invent a product you can sell it to whoever you want to the conditions you want with no middle man involved, unthinkable in real communism.

[Teutone]

The impression that our Dutch friend devotes all his life to thoughts about Russia and Russians. Despite the fact that the Russians do not think about it at all. Clearly guy has roots in Eastern Europe. No Dutchman or German will not spend their time and effort to collect information on Russia. I'm pretty sure this guy's Ukrainian or mixed.

He hated Eastern Europeans in general, he is a old school dutch.

Before muslim inmigration, eastern europeans were the niggers here and our right wing parties wanted to deport you.

[The Lawspeaker]

Spanish had very few guest workerd abroad and fuck yeah the Spanish population was doing awesome when the spanish miracle impacted, same with the Chileneans willing to work which created a strong right wing middle class. Pinochet called the Chicago boys which were Economist helping him, best foreign aid I ever saw. Argentina suffered from Penonism which is pretty economically left.

Weimar had no social darwinism, it was fucking opressed by the versaille treaty. Russians on the other hand tasted their fruits of decades of inefficency but even before the 90s they had to wait in lines in order to get basic goods.

Are you a communist now?

That's not true: the Belgian and Dutch mines of the 1950s and 1960s pretty much ran on Spanish and Italians. The Spanish population was doing anything but awesome until the 1980s, 1990s. Pinochet also did nothing to alievate conditions in his country - a situation which only began to change by the late 1990s. Weimar Germany was social darwinism at its finest as can be seen from the political degradation and extremism, the immense poverty in Germany's inner cities and its mountain prostitution and drug problem.

You don't have to be a communism to utterly reject extreme capitalism. Extreme capitalism is as bad as communism as both concentrate wealth of a small group: here in our feel-good leftist elites and there, in Soviet Russia, in the hands of their party top (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura) which lived in inclusive datcha's and could get all the Western products they wanted..

[Crimean]

I mean I would try to explain the differences of Corporatism and Capitalism and the ideas of Hayek to you, but you are not the Lawspeaker and therfor not capable to understand these ideas anyway.
Better not even try, I'm not interested in polluting my brain with all sorts of enemy theories.
I have already put a cross on you, since you are a person who approves of social Darwinism.

[Teutone]

Better not even try, I'm not interested in polluting my brain with all sorts of enemy theories.
I have already put a cross on you, since you are a person who approves of social Darwinism.

Yup your kind is not capable of benefit the most capable.
Its a Germanic thing to do.

[The Lawspeaker]

Foreign corperations take advantage of a big government, what I told you about this before?

Yes China has a free market, there is no planned economy whatsoever left there. If you are chinese and invent a product you can sell it to whoever you want to the conditions you want with no middle man involved, unthinkable in real communism.

There is a planned economy in China ? I think you need to read more on the matter. Do you really think that those new cities and SEZ's are unplanned ? Come on now. Big corporations like Huawei are directly tied to the Government.

But what does it make of a government when it invites in foreign corporations to abuse a people ? Precisely.

[Veles]

That's all beautiful but take a look outside and you know how people live like in Russia. Those beautiful lists of "achievements" don't matter a damn when the bulk of your population is living in squalor.
Why are we living in poverty? Where did you get that? On average, Russians live no worse than Europeans. There are problems with pensioners and those who do not want to work. Parasites in Holland receive benefits, parasites in Russia can die from hunger. People who work have the opportunity to earn more than in Holland. For example, I have enough income to feel happy in Russia and love my Homeland. I have two apartments in Moscow, a good car, my own business. At the same time I do not go to work, sleep well, buy myself and my family whatever I want...Perhaps I would support Putin if wealth stood above the idea of nationalism in Russia.

[Teutone]

That's not true: the Belgian and Dutch mines of the 1950s and 1960s pretty much ran on Spanish and Italians. The Spanish population was doing anything but awesome until the 1980s, 1990s. Pinochet also did nothing to alievate conditions in his country - a situation which only began to change by the 1980s. Weimar Germany was social darwinism at its finest as can be seen from the political degradation and extremism, the immense poverty in Germany's inner cities and its mountain prostitution and drug problem.

You don't have to be a communism to utterly reject extreme capitalism. Extreme capitalism is as bad as communism as both concentrate wealth of a small group: here in our feel-good leftist elites and there, in Soviet Russia, in the hands of their party top which lived in inclusive datcha's and could get all the Western products they wanted..


You believe leftist lies about Chile and Spain, the unleash of their economy benefited their population as much as it did in our countries, ask your grandfather about the 60s do you try to tell me the current situation is better? Chile and Spain developed their middle class during those times, its a fact. Seat employees could live a good life like a VW employee.

Weimar was never able to build up a economy that could lift hard working people to a status that they can help themselves, this is not social darwinism, its the opposite of it. The versaille treaty was a burden to the free market, look how things changed just 20years later.

I dont see any capitalism today? Only corporatism.

[The Lawspeaker]

And what did the wave of privatisation in Russia led to ? Or Ukraine.. fuck all over the Eastern Europe: their entire economy went from being owned by the nomenklatura but officially by the State to being officially owned by the nomenklatura. It was robber capitalism - nothing more, nothing less. The Russian people ended up getting nothing and the same went for Yugoslavia, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Czechs etc. etc. Eastern Europe was one exception ---- because the Treuhandanstalt handed over the whole lot to West German and foreign corporations which either moved them abroad or, if competing, closed them down for good.

[The Lawspeaker]

You believe leftist lies about Chile and Spain, the unleash of their economy benefited their population as much as it did in our countries, ask your grandfather about the 60s do you try to tell me the current situation is better? Chile and Spain developed their middle class during those times, its a fact. Seat employees could live a good life like a VW employee.

Weimar was never able to build up a economy that could lift hard working people to a status that they can help themselves, this is not social darwinism, its the opposite of it. The versaille treaty was a burden to the free market, look how things changed just 20years later.

I dont see any capitalism today? Only corporatism.
Well for once they weren't lying then. I guess you never even looked into the matter know your people there. I do, actually, I used to be friends with some Chileans (conservatives btw) who told me about that Pinochet was good at stopping the Left but even better at robbing them clean. The Chilean and Spanish middle class developed WELL after the regimes were gone. 10 to 20 years later, in fact. In Chile, that middle class is actually developing now.

Weimar Germany was unstable in every conceivable way. That's social darwinism for you: survival of the most criminal. If you call yourself a patriot, you should be absolutely against putting your people through such misery and social degradation.

[The Lawspeaker]

Why are we living in poverty? Where did you get that? On average, Russians live no worse than Europeans. There are problems with pensioners and those who do not want to work. Parasites in Holland receive benefits, parasites in Russia can die from hunger. People who work have the opportunity to earn more than in Holland. For example, I have enough income to feel happy in Russia and love my Homeland. I have two apartments in Moscow, a good car, my own business. At the same time I do not go to work, sleep well, buy myself and my family whatever I want...Perhaps I would support Putin if wealth stood above the idea of nationalism in Russia.

Nobody can prove your claims here but I guess you're working at Olgino, if you catch my drift. Then you indeed have a better life. So, yes, I hold you for a liar of the Victor Louis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Louis_(journalist)) type.

[Teutone]

There is a planned economy in China ? I think you need to read more on the matter. Do you really think that those new cities and SEZ's are unplanned ? Come on now. Big corporations like Huawei are directly tied to the Government.

But what does it make of a government when it invites in foreign corporations to abuse a people ? Precisely.

Those cities are the result of the chinese government limit investment opportunities for chinese.

A planned economy is planning the production of goods and services in a central commitie, this is not the case in China nowadays but used to in all communist countries.

Huawei is a corperatist result like Apple, both in bed with their government and successful through lobbyism and subsidies.

[Teutone]

And what did the wave of privatisation in Russia led to ? Or Ukraine.. fuck all over the Eastern Europe: their entire economy went from being owned by the nomenklatura but officially by the State to being officially owned by the nomenklatura. It was robber capitalism - nothing more, nothing less. The Russian people ended up getting nothing and the same went for Yugoslavia, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Czechs etc. etc. Eastern Europe was one exception ---- because the Treuhandanstalt handed over the whole lot to West German and foreign corporations which either moved them abroad or, if competing, closed them down for good.

I rather live in any EE country post communism than during communism, they all better off nowadays.

[The Lawspeaker]

Those cities are the result of the chinese government limit investment opportunities for chinese.

A planned economy is planning the production of goods and services in a central commitie, this is not the case in China nowadays but used to in all communist countries.

Huawei is a corperatist result like Apple, both in bed with their government and successful through lobbyism and subsidies.

In other words: China is a planned economy as this is the result of economic planning. But don't worry: most of us are planned economies in one form or the other. Including Germany or the Netherlands ? Because there corporations also base them on the data provided to them by both market research and data granted to them by the national statistical agency.

[The Lawspeaker]

I rather live in any EE country post communism than during communism, they all better off nowadays.

No they aren't. You might want to do some looking up for once. If they are doing so star-spangled awesome, their young people wouldn't be flooding into the West.

[Teutone]

Well for once they weren't lying then. I guess you never even looked into the matter know your people there. I do, actually, I used to be friends with some Chileans (conservatives btw) who told me about that Pinochet was good at stopping the Left but even better at robbing them clean. The Chilean and Spanish middle class developed WELL after the regimes were gone. 10 to 20 years later, in fact. In Chile, that middle class is actually developing now.

Weimar Germany was unstable in every conceivable way. That's social darwinism for you: survival of the most criminal. If you call yourself a patriot, you should be absolutely against putting your people through such misery and social degradation.

You should talk to Mr.Wog and other smart Latin American users here that can tell you quite the opposite, I aldo rely more on stats like the GDP per capita to prove my points.

No that is NOT social darwinism, social darwinism for me benefits the hard working and punishs the lazy. survival of the fittest. Weimar held back everyone

[Tong]

We literally had, quite literally, every advantage on them. literally impossible for russia to have beat the british empire.

[Tong]

i honestly have no idea why any human would think that the russian tsardom could ever beat the british empire, both in their prime. it's just insane. india was 5x the population of russia when it was conquered and has much harder terrain, so does pakistan.

[Teutone]

No they aren't. You might want to do some looking up for once. If they are doing so star-spangled awesome, their young people wouldn't be flooding into the West.

They would havr fleed to the west during communism too in even bigger numbers quite obviously.

You try to tell me now that the Berlin wall was really anti facist wall of protection? No it was the only way to stop a mass exodus.

[The Lawspeaker]

You should talk to Mr.Wog and other smart Latin American users here that can tell you quite the opposite, I aldo rely more on stats like the GDP per capita to prove my points.

No that is NOT social darwinism, social darwinism for me benefits the hard working and punishs the lazy. survival of the fittest. Weimar held back everyone

Weimar Germany advanced the most criminal by looking the other way and punishing the most hard-working through taxes. That's why Hitler came around. Now you know where his rise to power came from. Clearly you do not rely on any of those statistics. Maybe you should look into the statistics per Bundesland (https://d28wbuch0jlv7v.cloudfront.net/images/infografik/normal/infografik_2818_Bruttoinlandsprodukt_je_Einwohner_ in_Euro_n.jpg) in your own country because you would see a discrepancy between East and West and not even wealth transfers could undo the mind-boggling damage the Treuhandanstalt did.

https://d28wbuch0jlv7v.cloudfront.net/images/infografik/normal/infografik_2818_Bruttoinlandsprodukt_je_Einwohner_ in_Euro_n.jpg

[Tong]

Socialist countries tend to be so poor because the entire capitalist world presses 5000 sanctions on them. the soviet union was more prosperous than any country minus the united states for a reason

[Teutone]

Weimar Germany advanced the most criminal by looking the other way and punishing the most hard-working through taxes. That's why Hitler came around. Now you know where his rise to power came from. Clearly you do not rely on any of those statistics. Maybe you should look into the statistics per Bundesland in your own country because you would see a discrepancy between East and West and not even wealth transfers could undo the mind-boggling damage the Treuhandanstalt did.

How often I gotta tell you about the versaille treaty? Punish hard working through taxes? Have you read anything I wrote about taxes?

I know the stats in my country, what you try to tell me now? Bundesländer that were ruled by economic liberals are doing the best.

[Tong]

Is this a poll based on coolness? in that case probably the russian tsardom tbqh. They didn't literally let the rothschilds country their empire, but also had much more interesting culture and minorities. if the british empire managed to conquer afghanistan this would probably change in our favour though. tajikistan should've also been ours.

[Tong]

then again, more than anything i think russia needs to be a vice state of a kazakh uzbek golden horde.

[Teutone]

Socialist countries tend to be so poor because the entire capitalist world presses 5000 sanctions on them. the soviet union was more prosperous than any country minus the united states for a reason

Why didint they put sanctions on the West lol

[Tong]

Why didint they put sanctions on the West lol

less in numbers

[Crimean]

Socialist countries tend to be so poor because the entire capitalist world presses 5000 sanctions on them. the soviet union was more prosperous than any country minus the united states for a reason
/thread

[The Lawspeaker]

Socialist countries tend to be so poor because the entire capitalist world presses 5000 sanctions on them. the soviet union was more prosperous than any country minus the united states for a reason

Let's check the veracity of that statement:

USSR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union)

$5,800 in 1982
(nominal; 32nd)
$9,211 in 1991
(GNP; 28th)

USA:
14,405$ (https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/usa?year=1982)
24,303$ (https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/usa?year=1991)

[Teutone]

less in numbers

Not really, they had a bigger population during their prime lol

[The Lawspeaker]

How often I gotta tell you about the versaille treaty? Punish hard working through taxes? Have you read anything I wrote about taxes?

I know the stats in my country, what you try to tell me now? Bundesländer that were ruled by economic liberals are doing the best.

Actually: nonsense as many of those states also used to have social democrats in the government (mainly in the Rhineland and Lower Saxony). What matters is their industrial basis. East Germany has a strong industrial basis that actually dated back well before the war as it was once (Mitteldeutschland) the industrial heartland. The final destruction of that heartland (badly antiquated as it was) came in the 1990s.

[Teutone]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/New_Cold_War_Map_1980.png

[Tong]

Let's check the veracity of that statement:

USSR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union)

$5,800 in 1982
(nominal; 32nd)
$9,211 in 1991
(GNP; 28th)

USA:
14,405$ (https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/usa?year=1982)
24,303$ (https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/usa?year=1991)

prosperous =/= GNP. they also had much more people to feed, a much more diverse population. Compare st petersburg and moscow to fucking dushanbe, sakhalin and dagestan.

[Ford]

Socialist countries tend to be so poor because the entire capitalist world presses 5000 sanctions on them. the soviet union was more prosperous than any country minus the united states for a reason

It certainly plays a part but I would say the main problem is the lack of understanding what supply and demand means. Serbia (then Yugoslavia), however, would definitely be a lot more developed today if it wasn't for the sanctions it received during the 90's and early 00's.

[The Lawspeaker]

prosperous =/= GNP. they also had much more people to feed, a much more diverse population. Compare st petersburg and moscow to fucking dushanbe, sakhalin and dagestan.

You seem to forget that the USSR and USA weren't different when it comes to their population number.

[Teutone]

Actually: nonsense as many of those states also used to have social democrats in the government (mainly in the Rhineland and Lower Saxony). What matters is their industrial basis. East Germany has a strong industrial basis that actually dated back well before the war as it was once (Mitteldeutschland) the industrial heartland. The final destruction of that heartland (badly antiquated as it was) came in the 1990s.

They are not doing the best in a longshot, Social democrats ruined northrhine westphalia.

The best are Bavaria and BaWü

The GDR was a complete shithole that was exposed to the real world in the 90s showing how inefficent their whole system was.

Without the GDR they wouldnt be in a bad state at all, but let me get this straight now.

You try to convince me that the warsaw pact countries werent as bad now?

[Tong]

Not really, they had a bigger population during their prime lol

they didn't. also why are you comparing allies like the congo and vietnam/cambodia to US allies like west germany, france, UK, canada, italy, etc. Unfair

[Teutone]

It certainly plays a part but I would say the main problem is the lack of understanding what supply and demand means. Serbia (then Yugoslavia), however, would definitely be a lot more developed today if it wasn't for the sanctions it received during the 90's and early 00's.

Dont confront him with realism.

[Tong]

You seem to forget that the USSR and USA weren't different when it comes to their population number.

...i never said they weren't

[Teutone]

they didn't. also why are you comparing allies like the congo and vietnam/cambodia to US allies like west germany, france, UK, canada, italy, etc. Unfair

Not unfair, those allies like Germany were great cause they had no communism.

[Tong]

Not unfair, those allies like Germany were great cause they had no communism.

no, it's because they were already powerful as fuck countries unlike something like cambodia or the congo lmao. you're grasping at strings here

[♥ Lily ♥]

3:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB5Nbp_gmgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca_kI948JUA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCpqN7GmLYk

[Tong]

It certainly plays a part but I would say the main problem is the lack of understanding what supply and demand means. Serbia (then Yugoslavia), however, would definitely be a lot more developed today if it wasn't for the sanctions it received during the 90's and early 00's.

i'm aware of this, yes

[The Lawspeaker]

They are not doing the best in a longshot, Social democrats ruined northrhine westphalia.

The best are Bavaria and BaWü

The GDR was a complete shithole that was exposed to the real world in the 90s showing how inefficent their whole system was.

Without the GDR they wouldnt be in a bad state at all, but let me get this straight now.

You try to convince me that the warsaw pact countries werent as bad now?

They were certainly bad but not nowhere as bad as they are now. They were well behind the West. But privatisation threw them back another 50 years and it's only now that we're beginning to undo that damage and guess what: you and me are paying for that. Funny how that goes: you paid for them to be economically liberalised through taxes and now you pay for their reconstruction. See now how you got robbed ?

The social democrats, for all their evil, did not ruin NRW. That damage was done in the economic blizzard of the 1980s. That's Reaganomics for you, it's the same idiotic model that shattered Brabant, ruined Limburg, destroyed Groningen and completely gutted Twenthe.

[Teutone]

no, it's because they were already powerful as fuck countries unlike something like cambodia or the congo lmao. you're grasping at strings here

Germany was a wasteland in 1949, what you try to tell me?

[Teutone]

They were certainly bad but not nowhere as bad as they are now. They were well behind the West. But privatisation threw them back another 50 years and it's only now that we're beginning to undo that damage and guess what: you and me are paying for that. Funny how that goes: you paid for them to be economically liberalised through taxes and now you pay for their reconstruction. See now how you got robbed ?

The social democrats, for all their evil, did not ruin NRW. That damage was done in the economic blizzard of the 1980s. That's Reaganomics for you. That also killed off our entire industry here.

I advice you to compare the GDR with the East today, on all fields its better off today.

The social democrats did ruin my state, they pushed inefficent unions, killef our coal industry cause of eco facism. They ruled my state almost exclusively and its a shithole now, I rather would have been ruled by thw CSU.

[Tong]

Germany was a wasteland in 1949, what you try to tell me?

no...it wasn't. it still had loads of its architecture and buildings intact unlike what germans did to the ukraine and belarus :) do you know that north korea was quite a bit more developed than south korea until the soviet union and china dipped, then america and japan started funneling all their jew money into it?

[Tong]

why do germans play the victims with bombings when they did the exact same thing to us, and even more to slavs?

[Tong]

Don't be mad just because we did it better than you.

[The Lawspeaker]

I advice you to compare the GDR with the East today, on all fields its better off today.

The social democrats did ruin my state, they pushed inefficent unions, killef our coal industry cause of eco facism. They ruled my state almost exclusively and its a shithole now, I rather would have been ruled by thw CSU.

For all their ills, it's because of unions that most working people actually have bread on the table and there is a good reason why they are a part of the tri-partite group that moderates this economy. And no, the coal industry wasn't ruined by any of that - they were destroyed because cheaper coal came from China and America. It's the same logic that was followed here: cheaper clothes from India ? (open the borders ! let it in.. bye bye Twenthe !), cheaper coal from America ? (Close down Limburg !), cheaper shoes from India, Poland and Italy ? (goodbye shoes and garments industry in Brabant !).

[Teutone]

no...it wasn't. it still had loads of its architecture and buildings intact unlike what germans did to the ukraine and belarus :) do you know that north korea was quite a bit more developed than south korea until the soviet union and china dipped, then america and japan started funneling all their jew money into it?

Not really, it was a wasteland no country was bombed as much during the war as Germany.

The bombardments had a hughe focus on every industrial part. You are just incapable to understand the difference of the germanic work ethics to others and the failures coming along with a planned economy.

There was a reason the GDR was the most developed in the warsaw pact, its the germanic working mentallity.

[Tong]

Not really, it was a wasteland no country was bombed as much during the war as Germany.

The bombardments had a hughe focus on every industrial part. You are just incapable to understand the difference of the germanic work ethics to others and the failures coming along with a planned economy.

There was a reason the GDR was the most developed in the warsaw pact, its the germanic working mentallity.

''Not really, it was a wasteland no country was bombed as much during the war as Germany.'' got any proof of that, at all? it wasn't a fucking wasteland loads of my great granduncles and my great grandfathers were stationed there in the lateish 40s. Everything was still working.

no it was because prussia was incredibly built up compared to let's say....tajikistan

lol

[Tong]

double post

[Veles]

He hated Eastern Europeans in general, he is a old school dutch.

Before muslim inmigration, eastern europeans were the niggers here and our right wing parties wanted to deport you.
1. The fact is that the migration of Russians has never been a problem for Holland. This migration has never happened. Migration of Poles, Ukrainians, Czechs - maybe I do not know. However, the Russians cannot be held responsible for all Slavs.
2. The guy hates only Russians. He supports Ukrainians, Belarusians, anyone, just to be against Russia. Those Westerners who are against Eastern Europe, first of all against the Ukrainians, because it is the Ukrainians who today, like blacks, have flooded the whole of Europe in the hope of cleaning the toilet bowls and cleaning the shoes of their white owners.
3. Psychology says that a person cannot simply hate someone far. Our guy most likely has personal motives for hate. I have several options:
Option 1 This person is a Ukrainian by nationality and pretends to be a Dutchman in order to turn the Europeans against Russia. Today, the Ukrainian government allocates a lot of money to anti-Russian propaganda on the Internet. I have met many people from Ukraine who say the same thing as our fake Dutchman.
Option 2. Man has Eastern Slavic roots, and the Russian-Ukrainian conflict today is his personal tragedy. He may be Dutch, but he has a Ukrainian grandfather or grandmother.
4. A man has seen too much propaganda on TV. In 36 years, only complete fools believe the TV. That is, a person is just a fool. The Dutch of the old school have nothing to do with this, because the Dutch of the old school may hate communism, Eastern Europeans, but they equally hate Russia, Ukraine and Poland, without separating them.

PS In this story I am not interested in the Dutch and their attitude towards me. I am interested in Ukrainian meanness, which can go so far.

[Teutone]

For all their ills, it's because of unions that most working people actually have bread on the table. And no, the coal industry wasn't ruined by any of that - they were destroyed because cheaper coal came from China and America. It's the same logic that was followed here: cheaper clothes from India ? (open the borders ! let it in.. bye bye Twenthe !), cheaper coal from America ? (Close down Limburg !), cheaper shoes from India, Poland and Italy ? (goodbye shoes and garments industry in Brabant !).

Excuse me I am from a middle class family, blue collar. My father got rid of the unions, created his own business and was held back by unions as a business owner. The unions betrayed the people by going in bed with the politicans.

And I reject the globalism you mentioned.

German coal mines still were there few years ago, If we had a Trump that imposed protectionism which im infavor of, it could have been saved.

[Tong]

1. The fact is that the migration of Russians has never been a problem for Holland. This migration has never happened. Migration of Poles, Ukrainians, Czechs - maybe I do not know. However, the Russians cannot be held responsible for all Slavs.
2. The guy hates only Russians. He supports Ukrainians, Belarusians, anyone, just to be against Russia. Those Westerners who are against Eastern Europe, first of all against the Ukrainians, because it is the Ukrainians who today, like blacks, have flooded the whole of Europe in the hope of cleaning the toilet bowls and cleaning the shoes of their white owners.
3. Psychology says that a person cannot simply hate someone far. Our guy most likely has personal motives for hate. I have several options:
Option 1 This person is a Ukrainian by nationality and pretends to be a Dutchman in order to turn the Europeans against Russia. Today, the Ukrainian government allocates a lot of money to anti-Russian propaganda on the Internet. I have met many people from Ukraine who say the same thing as our fake Dutchman.
Option 2. Man has Eastern Slavic roots, and the Russian-Ukrainian conflict today is his personal tragedy. He may be Dutch, but he has a Ukrainian grandfather or grandmother.
4. A man has seen too much propaganda on TV. In 36 years, only complete fools believe the TV. That is, a person is just a fool. The Dutch of the old school have nothing to do with this, because the Dutch of the old school may hate communism, Eastern Europeans, but they equally hate Russia, Ukraine and Poland, without separating them.

PS In this story I am not interested in the Dutch and their attitude towards me. I am interested in Ukrainian meanness, which can go so far.

bro you can't deny russia has done loads to fuck with the world.

[The Lawspeaker]

Excuse me I am from a middle class family, blue collar. My father got rid of the unions, created his own business and was held back by unions as a business owner. The unions betrayed the people by going in bed with the politicans.

And I reject the globalism you mentioned.

German coal mines still were there few years ago, If we had a Trump that imposed protectionism which im infavor of, it could have been saved.

Globalism is the inevitable outcome of an unmoderated capitalism. It is capitalism in its ultimate conclusion. And the business owners now betray their workers by going into bed with the politicians. So in other words: they are exactly the same as unmoderated unions who stray from their original principles. Minijobs aren't jobs and Harz IV is hardly a welfare state. In both cases, it's just daylight robbery. Minijobs rob people from the opportunity to have a career and to build a family and Harz IV robs the taxpayer by making him pay social contributions and taxes for something he will hardly receive.

[Teutone]

''Not really, it was a wasteland no country was bombed as much during the war as Germany.'' got any proof of that, at all? it wasn't a fucking wasteland loads of my great granduncles and my great grandfathers were stationed there in the lateish 40s. Everything was still working.

no it was because prussia was incredibly built up compared to let's say....tajikistan

lol

You want to tell me something because some of your family members were stationed here? I was born here.

It doesnt fit your brittish narrative but the bombardment of Germany was unmatched.

[Teutone]

Globalism is the inevitable outcome of an unmoderated capitalism. It is capitalism in its ultimate conclusion. And the business owners now betray their workers by going into bed with the politicians. So in other words: they are exactly the same as unmoderated unions who stray from their original principles.

You know that I dont believe we have imposed capitalism.

But we wont get to a agreement there anyway.

[Teutone]

https://youtu.be/gh-KWJWRjcI

[The Lawspeaker]

You know that I dont believe we have imposed capitalism.

But we wont get to a agreement there anyway.

No. What you have is capitalism: it's unmoderated power of finance to use politics rob the people blind. Socialism is the State using their power to rob the people blind. They are both the same: daylight robbery. People used to understand that and that's why Catholics and Protestants but also some social democrats and liberals (like Ludwig Erhard) began to moderate capitalism.

[Teutone]

No. What you have is capitalism: it's unmoderated power of finance to use politics rob the people blind. Socialism is the State using their power to rob the people blind. They are both the same: daylight robbery.

Replace Capitalism with Corporatism and I agree.

[♥ Lily ♥]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Te-W_ZJCY

[The Lawspeaker]

Replace Capitalism with Corporatism and I agree.

Call it a Bombay or a tabby - it's still a cat.

[Teutone]

1. The fact is that the migration of Russians has never been a problem for Holland. This migration has never happened. Migration of Poles, Ukrainians, Czechs - maybe I do not know. However, the Russians cannot be held responsible for all Slavs.
2. The guy hates only Russians. He supports Ukrainians, Belarusians, anyone, just to be against Russia. Those Westerners who are against Eastern Europe, first of all against the Ukrainians, because it is the Ukrainians who today, like blacks, have flooded the whole of Europe in the hope of cleaning the toilet bowls and cleaning the shoes of their white owners.
3. Psychology says that a person cannot simply hate someone far. Our guy most likely has personal motives for hate. I have several options:
Option 1 This person is a Ukrainian by nationality and pretends to be a Dutchman in order to turn the Europeans against Russia. Today, the Ukrainian government allocates a lot of money to anti-Russian propaganda on the Internet. I have met many people from Ukraine who say the same thing as our fake Dutchman.
Option 2. Man has Eastern Slavic roots, and the Russian-Ukrainian conflict today is his personal tragedy. He may be Dutch, but he has a Ukrainian grandfather or grandmother.
4. A man has seen too much propaganda on TV. In 36 years, only complete fools believe the TV. That is, a person is just a fool. The Dutch of the old school have nothing to do with this, because the Dutch of the old school may hate communism, Eastern Europeans, but they equally hate Russia, Ukraine and Poland, without separating them.

PS In this story I am not interested in the Dutch and their attitude towards me. I am interested in Ukrainian meanness, which can go so far.

Whatever man I am not his lawyer.

You interpret things wrongly tho, the lawspeaker is just honest and politically incorrect.

You can disagree with him and still respect him.

[The Lawspeaker]

He hated Eastern Europeans in general, he is a old school dutch.

Before muslim inmigration, eastern europeans were the niggers here and our right wing parties wanted to deport you.

They still do. If the PVV or FD were in control, the EE would be on the next plane home with or without any compensation. EE's are considered concurrentievervalsing (a distortion in economic competition since they work below the market price and thus endanger local labour). Plus, they are mostly considered either full or boderline criminal and a drain on the budget. White niggers, if you may.

[Teutone]

Call it a Bombay or a tabby - it's still a cat.

If I have a idea, I produce the product, I want to sell the product.

What I gotta do in your utopia to estimate the wealth of my work and my intellectual property?

[The Lawspeaker]

If I have a idea, I produce the product, I want to sell the product.

What I gotta do in your utopia to estimate the wealth of my work and my intellectual property?
Market price. It works the same in moderated capitalsm. There is no utopia there. I am just going back to an era before the 1980s. There was a market in those days too, you know. We're just going back to the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

[Teutone]

Market price. It works the same in moderated capitalsm. There is no utopia there. I am just going back to an era before the 1980s. There was a market in those days too, you know.

Thats a start.

What leads to a market price?

Who besides a individual deciding what price he is ready to pay should be involved in order to set the market price?

[The Lawspeaker]

Thats a start.

What leads to a market price?

Who besides a individual deciding what price he is ready to pay should be involved in order to set the market price?
In reality nothing really changes and things might only get slightly cheaper because the tax rate can be lowered since we no longer need to support a migrant class. So, yes, we might have a slight deflation problem for some years. For the rest, in shops, there is no real change there for you.

The big changes would be that companies will have to hire people on serious contracts again, that the utilities are nationalized and that we use the Guilder and you use the D-Mark. Is that really such a headache to you ? In reality, we could get the same welfare state, basically, for free since maintaining one will be much cheaper without all the imported deadweight.

At worst, you'd have more money in your pocket because you no longer need to support a ton of migrants and an overtly corrupt EU. How dramatic !

[♥ Lily ♥]

The phrase "the empire on which the sun never sets" was frequently used for the British Empire, mainly in the 19th and early 20th centuries, a period in which the British Empire reached a territorial size larger than that of any other empire in history.

'Tis said that the British Empire spanned the globe and was so extensive that there was always at least one part of British territory in the world that was immersed in daylight.

https://i1.wp.com/www.mrflag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Brittannia.jpg?zoom=2&fit=500%2C299&ssl=1
https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/1ntg60/flags_of_the_british_empire_in_europe/
https://external-preview.redd.it/y12DR4T26hGmtC8bOZzbtXdiqV7ExqmpIQBg3F2twDQ.png?wi dth=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&09b02d23
https://nebula.wsimg.com/5e7f5ace7ee79338b44739196ddd31be?AccessKeyId=4DE77 9D5E4A696826AC8&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
https://i.imgur.com/xBCXrfAg.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/83/96/fe/8396fecef37f36731caf9d5e746992ee--irish-flags-empire.jpg
https://i.redd.it/qgdawsnns1l11.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/dc/74/b2dc74012f2642727da9e9ba8f9a8960.jpg
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71tPTXpmRwL._SX425_.jpg
https://i.redd.it/9ddhmljcipqz.png

[Veles]

bro you can't deny russia has done loads to fuck with the world.
Well, tell me what Russia has done wrong for you?

[Teutone]

In reality nothing really changes and things might only get slightly cheaper because the tax rate can be lowered since we no longer need to support a migrant class. So, yes, we might have a slight deflation problem for some years. For the rest, in shops, there is no real change there for you.

The big changes would be that companies will have to hire people on serious contracts again, that the utilities are nationalized and that we use the Guilder and you use the D-Mark. Is that really such a headache to you ? In reality, we could get the same welfare state, basically, for free since maintaining one will be much cheaper without all the imported deadweight.

I dont oppose a small welfare state, we talked about this before. As a dutch I would support it. But same time you dont understand my problem with the stage of degeneration of my population and how they simply rigg the system and people like me that work honestly pay a maximum amount of taxes.

[The Lawspeaker]

I dont oppose a small welfare state, we talked about this before. As a dutch I would support it. But same time you dont understand my problem with the stage of degeneration of my population and how they simply rigg the system and people like me that work honestly pay a maximum amount of taxes.

I am not sure where that degeneration in Germany came from.. since.. well... our welfare system (and our former healthcare system !) was a direct copy of the German system and we just implemented it here. You took a step, we took the step. So how can it work here, but fail there ?

[Teutone]

I am not sure where that degeneration in Germany came from.. since.. well... our welfare system (and our former healthcare system !) was a direct copy of German ideas and we just implemented it here.

Let me put it this way:

I am ready to pay taxes out of solidarity for people that worked all their life and now in retirement, for sick people, for retarded people and for veterans.

I am not ready to pay it for lazy people, stupid people or criminals. The last 3 groups I named recieve a big chunk of it right now.

[♥ Lily ♥]

British Antarctic Territory. (BAT)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB0tFvAUqKY

The Halley VI Research Station in British Antarctica.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaY75zYLyFk

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Flag_of_the_British_Antarctic_Territory.svg/1200px-Flag_of_the_British_Antarctic_Territory.svg.png

[The Lawspeaker]

Let me put it this way:

I am ready to pay taxes out of solidarity for people that worked all their life and now in retirement, for sick people, for retarded people and for veterans.

I am not ready to pay it for lazy people, stupid people or criminals. The last 3 groups I named recieve a big chunk of it right now.
Actually. I think that lazy people have a good point: why would you work your ass off if the boss gets all the money with you never being able to advance beyond anything but a temporary contract ? What's the use if your welfare ticket higher than the wage you will receive ? It's a social ill: make it worthwhile to work by granting honest wages to honest workers and idleness becomes less of a problem. The foreigners can be sent back to the desert or jungle.
Stupid people ? Place those under the sick people because stupidity is a sickness. The foreigners can be sent back to the desert or jungle.
Criminals ? Send those back to the desert then.

[♥ Lily ♥]

Russian Bear bomber planes illegally fly into UK, Canadian, and US airspaces several times each year. Great Britain is only a small island... and so the Royal Air Force (RAF) have to respond very quickly to chase them away and sharply warn them to back-off from approaching our island whenever an alert is received from Norway that a Bear is approaching our territory.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe46SmN_tjo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4MJ8AYbz-0

Russian Bears illegally approaching our back yard. I think the Russians are trying to intimidate and threaten us by flying their scary large bomber planes very close to our island.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daRoVw6ANMA

[Teutone]

Actually. I think that lazy people have a good point: why would you work your ass off if the boss gets all the money with you never being able to advance beyond anything but a temporary contract ? What's the use if your welfare ticket higher than the wage you will receive ? It's a social ill: make it worthwhile to work by granting honest wages to honest workers and idleness becomes less of a problem. The foreigners can be sent back to the desert or jungle.
Stupid people ? Place those under the sick people because stupidity is a sickness. The foreigners can be sent back to the desert or jungle.
Criminals ? Send those back to the desert then.

I dont wanna pay for them, I still pay off my srudent debt.

[The Lawspeaker]

Actually. I think that lazy people have a good point: why would you work your ass off if the boss gets all the money with you never being able to advance beyond anything but a temporary contract ? What's the use if your welfare ticket higher than the wage you will receive ? It's a social ill: make it worthwhile to work by granting honest wages to honest workers and idleness becomes less of a problem. The foreigners can be sent back to the desert or jungle.
Stupid people ? Place those under the sick people because stupidity is a sickness. The foreigners can be sent back to the desert or jungle.
Criminals ? Send those back to the desert then.

So this leads us to the real reason why the Austrian School of Economics never criticised immigration (in fact: they applaud it) but attacks the welfare state and labour regulations. It's actually quite simple: they want to destroy any form of protection for workers and any form of social or labour contract as the idea that you will be helped when you fall on hard times a legal and social entitlement is what you makes you a member of aclub. If a German falls on hard times, he will be helped by his government to get back on his feet. It makes him feel even more a member of a society since he has skin in the game. The destruction of the welfare state as coupled with the destruction of labour regulations would only relegate people into becoming pure individuals and migrants into people that can be used to increase competition by undercutting labour and inflaming the remaining nationalist passions.

It's a truly disgusting, anti-nationalist scheme. And anyone who supports such a school cannot possibly call himself a patriot.


I dont wanna pay for them, I still pay off my srudent debt.
A beautiful example of capitalism: inflame individualism by pitting him against his own countrymen while putting him into depth. Education used to be a right btw.

[Kamal900]

A beautiful example of capitalism: inflame individualism by pitting him against his own countrymen while putting him into depth. Education used to be a right btw.

It's so true..I mean, my parents had paid literally millions of dirhams for me and my brother just for our education. It used to be free in many parts of the world where education is a necessity for the nation to progress and so on. Not to sound like a Russian communist or anything but education really needs to be reformed.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's so true..I mean, my parents had paid literally millions of dirhams for me and my brother just for our education. It used to be free in many parts of the world where education is a necessity for the nation to progress and so on. Not to sound like a Russian communist or anything but education really needs to be reformed.

I agree totally. I think this is where the State should play a role because a nationalistic country should consider itself like an extended family and it should thus invest in its resources and the people are the family and also its resources.

[The Lawspeaker]

Veles is just down-voting while he hasn't given up a single interesting idea of his own. It should show you that my suspicions about him are correct: he is just one of those government trolls.

[Kamal900]

I agree totally. I think this is where the State should play a role because a nationalistic country should consider itself like an extended family and it should thus invest in its resources and the people are the family and also its resources.

I guess America back in the 50's used to be heaven and richly. Now, I can't look at the country that lost it's glory. No offence to any American here.

[The Lawspeaker]

I guess America back in the 50's used to be heaven and richly. Now, I can't look at the country that lost it's glory. No offence to any American here.

They used to be but also for a good reason: there was no competition as they had just bankrupted Britain, blown up Germany and Japan. Then I can be rich as well.

It's funny when you realise that pulled that trick twice: also during WWI.

[Chelubey]

I think big taxes and a big state are much more dangerous than migrants. A non-welfare state is not such a terrible thing as it seems.
Low taxes, small state, citizenship for foreigners based only on investment (million euros, for example) - this is the best model.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think big taxes and a big state are much more dangerous than migrants. A non-welfare state is not such a terrible thing as it seems.
Low taxes, small state, citizenship for foreigners based only on investment (million euros, for example) - this is the best model.

Is that based on historical experience or on what some propagandists write ?

[pulstar]

No they aren't. You might want to do some looking up for once. If they are doing so star-spangled awesome, their young people wouldn't be flooding into the West.

This is true because most if not all of the Eastern European communist countries during the 90's made a regression from communism/socialism to oligarchical radicalism, instead to move towards social democracy. So EE countries just exchanged one type of absolutism for another.

[The Lawspeaker]

This is true because most if not all of the Eastern European communist countries during the 90's made a regression from communism/socialism to oligarchical radicalism, instead to move towards social democracy. So EE countries just exchanged one type of absolutism for another.

Exactly. The best solution would have been a slow-process liberalisation and a move towards social democracy. The thing about shock therapy is that you have a lot of shock and not much therapy.

[Chelubey]

Is that based on historical experience or on what some propagandists write ?
The first.

[Crimean]

Replace Capitalism with Corporatism and I agree.
Corporatism is simply the next, monopoly stage of development of capitalism, its mature form. Having matured, capitalism inevitably begins to rob the lower classes in favor of the higher ones, spitting on the laws and the constitution, rewriting them in favor of the ruling class.
What kind of defense mechanisms do you know that prevent young capitalism from reincarnating into corporatism?

[The Lawspeaker]

The first.

What countries can you mention ?

[Ülev]

lower classes can't into space - easy as that, they can lower you rather than help in the development/growing

[Crimean]

Exactly. The best solution would have been a slow-process liberalisation and a move towards social democracy. The thing about shock therapy is that you have a lot of shock and not much therapy.
But in order to do this, we must first bankrupt our current government, so that it loses its strength and legitimacy in the eyes of the population. I understood correctly?

[Chelubey]

What countries can you mention ?
Partly China. But there are,as i know, heavy payroll taxes.

[The Lawspeaker]

But in order to do this, we must first bankrupt our current government, so that it loses its strength and legitimacy in the eyes of the population. I understood correctly?

Blimey ! You seem to be only one that gets it.

[Teutone]

Lawspeaker now on pair with a Stalinist Russian haha

[The Lawspeaker]

Lawspeaker now on pair with a Stalinist Russian haha

He isn't always wrong. I think we should totally Greek the system. Why ? Because this system has led to our take-over. Bankrupt it and then go back to the 1950s. Either we kill this system or it will kill us.

[The Lawspeaker]

Partly China. But there are,as i know, heavy payroll taxes.

Then you really need to read up more. Ding ding ! There are no RL examples. There are just as many examples of successful communist nations.
None.

[Crimean]

Blimey ! You seem to be only one that gets it.
Yes, I have been dreaming about this for a long time, just the brain clings to the old achievements of our country and tries to attribute them to the current government. But this is wrong, this is just a defensive reaction of the psyche).

[Teutone]

He isn't always wrong. I think we should totally Greek the system. Why ? Because this system has led to our take-over. Bankrupt it and then go back to the 1950s. Either we kill this system or it will kill us.

You see different symptoms for the disease.

[Crimean]

He isn't always wrong. I think we should totally Greek the system. Why ? Because this system has led to our take-over. Bankrupt it and then go back to the 1950s. Either we kill this system or it will kill us.
Golden words.

[Teutone]

So this leads us to the real reason why the Austrian School of Economics never criticised immigration (in fact: they applaud it) but attacks the welfare state and labour regulations. It's actually quite simple: they want to destroy any form of protection for workers and any form of social or labour contract as the idea that you will be helped when you fall on hard times a legal and social entitlement is what you makes you a member of aclub. If a German falls on hard times, he will be helped by his government to get back on his feet. It makes him feel even more a member of a society since he has skin in the game. The destruction of the welfare state as coupled with the destruction of labour regulations would only relegate people into becoming pure individuals and migrants into people that can be used to increase competition by undercutting labour and inflaming the remaining nationalist passions.

It's a truly disgusting, anti-nationalist scheme. And anyone who supports such a school cannot possibly call himself a patriot.


A beautiful example of capitalism: inflame individualism by pitting him against his own countrymen while putting him into depth. Education used to be a right btw.

Not at all, I profit longterm from my education and financial risk I am ready to take.


I got 0 profit from finance welfare for a loser that is too lazy to work.

Paying for further education would be easier without crszy taxes I gotta pay.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, I have been dreaming about this for a long time, just the brain clings to the old achievements of our country and tries to attribute them to the current government. But this is wrong, this is just a defensive reaction of the psyche).
It took me a while to get there too, trust me there. This present government has nothing to do with our historical achievements and, in fact, they sell off a lot of our masterpieces to whoever is willing to pay most.


You see different symptoms for the disease.
I notice that those of the Austrian school look at the symptoms and call them the disease. Finance is the sickness. Finance is what brought in the migrants to undercut labour. Finance capitalism is what allied with the Left in their joint quest to destroy the country - while having their knives behind each others backs (still red with our blood) as both want to turn us into identity less serfs with both groups just wanting us to serve different masters.

[Teutone]

It took me a while to get there too, trust me there. This present government has nothing to do with our historical achievements and, in fact, they sell off a lot of our masterpieces to whoever is willing to pay most.


I notice that those of the Austrian school look at the symptoms and call them the disease. Finance is the sickness. Finance is what brought in the migrants to undercut labour. Finance capitalism is what allied with the Left in their joint quest to destroy the country - while having their knives behind each others backs (still red with our blood) as both want to turn us into identity less serfs with both groups just wanting us to serve different masters.

Finance is part of the human nature lol

There are people that get things done and people that envy others based on their traits and success.

[Chelubey]

...

[The Lawspeaker]

Not at all, I profit longterm from my education and financial risk I am ready to take.


I got 0 profit from finance welfare for a loser that is too lazy to work.

Paying for further education would be easier without crszy taxes I gotta pay.

1970s: I profited from my long term education as a machinist.
1980s: oops ! jobs go to China
2010: I profit from my long term education hurr durr
2025: "Sorry, mate, we're shipping out your job today. We have this chap over in China who can do it for 50 euro's less. Hey.. at least you still have Harz IV"
2030: "Welfare state becomes too expensive".

[Teutone]

1970s: I profited from my long term education as a machinist. 1980s: oops ! jobs go to China
2010: I profit from my long term education hurr durr
2025: "Sorry, mate, we're shipping out your job today. We have this chap over in China who can do it for 50 euro's less. Hey.. at least you still have Harz IV"
2030: "Welfare state becomes too expensive".

Welfare state was too expensive already in the 90s without outsouricing.

[The Lawspeaker]

Cuba?

LOL

[Aspirin]

most if not all of the Eastern European communist countries during the 90's made a regression from communism/socialism to oligarchical radicalism, instead to move towards social democracy.

The evolution of Moldova in the past 30 years. :rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

Welfare state was too expensive already in the 90s without outsouricing.

I don't think you actually understand the post. Re-read it.

[Teutone]

I don't think you actually understand the post. Re-read it.

I understand it, but you imply wrong things, for instance that I support globalism.

[The Lawspeaker]

I understand it, but you imply wrong things, for instance that I support globalism.

Capitalism - Globalism -- car drives on the road, wheels turn. Cat - meows, water- wet.

[pulstar]

Exactly. The best solution would have been a slow-process liberalisation and a move towards social democracy. The thing about shock therapy is that you have a lot of shock and not much therapy.

But then who would hold the throne? Who would control the country and be the new aristocracy? The productive and smart people? Not in East Europe. Has to be ex-secret service members and the criminals that worked dirty jobs for them :rolleyes:

[Teutone]

Globalism and capitalism -- car drives on the road, wheels turn.

You can have a domestic free market with trade tarrifs applied on imports and punishment for companies that outsource their production.

[The Lawspeaker]

But then who would hold the throne? Who would control the country and be the new aristocracy? The productive and smart people? Not in East Europe. Has to be ex-secret service members and the criminals that worked dirty jobs for them :rolleyes:

Well, yes, it's Eastern Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

You can have a domestic free market with trade tarrifs applied on imports and punishment for companies that outsource their production.

Then you don't have capitalism.

[Teutone]

Then you don't have capitalism.

I dont have capitalism sadly, I wish I had it.

[The Lawspeaker]

I dont have capitalism sadly, I wish I had it.

I hope we will never get to see the full un-moderated version. Here is a tip: read up on the 19th century. And on 1990s Russia. It ain't a pretty story.
It's essentially feudalism.

[Teutone]

A transition from communism to capitalism is not going well from one moment to another.

[The Lawspeaker]

A transition from communism to capitalism is not going well from one moment to another.

Sure as hell isn't. But neither was capitalism before it got moderated by law: hint.. it's the only reason why we never had a communist revolution. Because had steps not been taken by Christians and Liberals alike, the godless hordes would have taken us over a long time before they got to march through the institutions.

[Crimean]

But then who would hold the throne? Who would control the country and be the new aristocracy? The productive and smart people? Not in East Europe. Has to be ex-secret service members and the criminals that worked dirty jobs for them :rolleyes:
Regardless of how we agree here, the problem of dismantling the current parasitic system seems unsolvable. It seems that the point of no return has already been passed.
This applies to all, not just Eastern Europe. The degradation of human resources is ubiquitous.

[Chelubey]

Then you really need to read up more. Ding ding ! There are no RL examples. There are just as many examples of successful communist nations.
None.
Obvious things need no proof.