23andme results of North-West African Jews (Haplogroups+Autosomal)

[Sp_loa]

History of Jews in North Africa-

Some Jewish settlements in North Africa date back to pre-Roman times, possibly correlating with the late Punic settlements in the area.
many Jews also settled amongst Berbers and adopted their languages (some berber tribes fully converted to judaism).

In the seventh century, the Jewish population was augmented by Iberian Jewish immigrants, who, fleeing from the persecutions of the Visigothic king Sisebut and his successors, escaped to the Maghreb and settled in the local Byzantine Empire. The much greater immigration of Sephardic Jews took place between 1391 and 1492, by the Alhambra decree edict of expulsion, and persecution in Spain and Portugal.
Maghrebi Jews largely mixed with the newly arrived Sephardic Jews, beginning from the 13th century until the 16th century, eventually being overwhelmed by Sephardim and embracing the Sephardic Jewish identity in most cases.


Algerian Jews

#1
https://i.ibb.co/8mQ0H25/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-8-43-46-PM.png

MtDNA: HV1c (Jewish)


#2
https://i.ibb.co/WzQbdfz/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-8-47-34-PM.png


Mtdna: K2a5 (North West Europe)
YDNA: E-L29 (levant)


#3
https://i.ibb.co/V9GNY32/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-8-52-27-PM.png


Mtdna: HV1c (Jewish)
YDNA: R-M417 (R1a subclade)

#4
https://i.ibb.co/N2P86LR/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-8-59-15-PM.png


Mtdna: HV0 (Western Europe)
YDNA: G-Z3428 (Iberia)


#5
https://i.ibb.co/16p378g/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-02-04-PM.png

Mtdna: H4a1b (Western Europe)
YDNA: T-L208 (Probably Iberian)

#6
https://i.ibb.co/8gn6YBx/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-08-49-PM.png

Mtdna: H7c (Near East)
YDNA: G-Z18064.2




Tunisian Jews


Tunisian Jews have more Italian-Jewish ancestry from Livorno than actual sephardic ancestry so they will score high Ashkenazi and Italian and lower Iberian

#1
https://i.ibb.co/1QKFv5b/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-20-29-PM.png

Mtdna: K1a (European)

YDNA: R-CTS1843


#2
https://i.ibb.co/C04WP2J/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-30-48-PM.png

Mtdna: H1 (Europe)
YDNA: J-P58 (South Levant)



Moroccan Jews


#1
https://i.ibb.co/qJxgHFW/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-40-20-PM.png

YDNA: J-L26 (Prediasporal Jewish)
Mtdna: H1e (Basque)

#2
https://i.ibb.co/nrx2QTp/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-45-52-PM.png


MtDNA: H
YDNA: Q-YP1236 (Prediasporal Judean, found among Mizrahim, Ashkenazim and Sephardim)


#3
https://i.ibb.co/BL114Hy/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-48-43-PM.png


MtDNA: H2 (Europe)
YDNA: R-L23 (Western Europe)


#4

https://i.ibb.co/qjXPwxd/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-53-53-PM.png


MtDNA: K1a3a1a (Western Europe)
YDNA: J-CTS5368



#5
https://i.ibb.co/DWw2Zy6/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-59-06-PM.png


MtDNA: X2b1 (Kazakhstan)
YDNA: E-M183 (North-West Africa)



#6
https://i.ibb.co/hCj6QXV/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-10-04-00-PM.png


MtDNA: H1o (Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jewish)
YDNA: G-M406 (East-Med, Europe/Levant)


#7
https://i.ibb.co/DMg2M4M/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-10-10-30-PM.png


MtDNA: T2c1b(pan Mediterranean)


#8
https://i.ibb.co/br8htgR/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-10-16-39-PM.png


MtDNA: HV1c (Jewish)
YDNA: R-DF98 (Atlantic Europe)


#9

https://i.ibb.co/tp6rLCc/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-10-18-38-PM.png

MtDNA: HV0 (Western Europe)
YDNA: J-M319 (Levant and Greece, J2 subclade)

[Sp_loa]

To Conclude- North West African Jews are very heterogeneous population (vary in percentage for each population) descendants mainly from Italians, Judeans, native Amazigh and Iberians. Makes sense considering the immigration waves from Europe in medieval periods.

I have more results but I thought that would be enough. If you want me to post more then ask here.


BTW my grandmother results (Moroccan-Algerian Jew)


https://i.ibb.co/D9YFHnH/1890-D3-EF-99-B3-4-F99-BA97-550-F22-D67935.png

Maternal Haplogroup : HV1c (Jewish)

[Lemgrant]

Great thread.

[Sp_loa]

Great thread.

Thank you. I know many people were trying to find North African Jewish results before. In the internet you will find maybe 3 23andme results before my thread. Especially when we are talking about haplogroups.

[happycow]

Very cool :)

[Lemgrant]

Thank you. I know many people were trying to find North African Jewish results before. In the internet you will find maybe 3 23andme results before my thread. Especially when we are talking about haplogroups.

Yes, I was looking for it.

[Sp_loa]

Yes, I was looking for it.

And what do you think?

[Lemgrant]

And what do you think?

I'm gonna test my mother with 23andme because I score 7-8.33% Moroccan Jew on Global25 and have tons of Jewish mathes on gedmatch and MyHeritage, yet I do not score Jewish on AncestryDNA, MyHeritage or DNA.land.

[ModernMaskil]

Very well done thread. I'm surprised at the normalcy of North African Jews scoring <50% European. Makes me wonder how much Ashkenazim would score if we were broken down to ancestral components on 23andme.

I'm also surprised at the degree of Maghrebi ancestry, among some Jews it appears to even eclipse the West Asian ancestry.

[Sp_loa]

Very well done thread. I'm surprised at the normalcy of North African Jews scoring <50% European. Makes me wonder how much Ashkenazim would score if we were broken down to ancestral components on 23andme.

I'm also surprised at the degree of Maghrebi ancestry, among some Jews it appears to even eclipse the West Asian ancestry.

The 50%+ area is not true for all areas. Tunisian Jews and Libyan Jews don't score very high European.
For Algerian and Moroccan Jews - Northern you go in the country more European you'll score. I think it peaks in Oran in Algeria and in Tanger-Tetouan for Morocco. There it's not extremely Atypical to score even 60%+ European with a significant Spanish (Conversos escaping to North Africa).

In the southern parts of Morocco you can find Moroccan Jews with only 20% European.

Take a look at this Moroccan Jew-
https://i.ibb.co/tC27DPB/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-11-58-33-PM.png

Although her surname is Toledano (Toledo=Sephardic)


On the other hand... This Algerian-Moroccan-Tunisian Jew is extremely European (Saw her picture, she also looks very much like North Italian to me.. very fair skin and blue eyes and Alpine features.. just she has curly hair like a good Jewish)

https://i.ibb.co/2K7zcdb/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-11-58-57-PM.png

Both are extremely Atypical.

I don't think it's possible to know how much European Ashkenazim would score on 23andme as they also mixed with other populations (possibly with even different types of Italians). I guess more than 50% (although the North shift to Sephardim is mainly because of some Germanic-Slavic mix and not % of European, and the south shift that Berber ancestry is causing because of SSA and high Red sea)
All I know is that in Israel Moroccan&Algerian Jews are considered "Mizrahim" even tho the distance between MJ to Ashkenazim is about 7-9 on gedmatch while the distance of MJ to Iraqi jews or proper Mizrahim is 30+++

About the Megharbi component, full Berber tribes converted to Judaism prior to the rise of Islam so I am not that surprised it's sometimes higher than the West Asian levantine.

[ModernMaskil]

The 50%+ area is not true for all areas. Tunisian Jews and Libyan Jews don't score very high European.
For Algerian and Moroccan Jews - Northern you go in the country more European you'll score. I think it peaks in Oran in Algeria and in Tanger-Tetouan for Morocco. There it's not extremely Atypical to score even 60%+ European with a significant Spanish (Conversos escaping to North Africa).

In the southern parts of Morocco you can find Moroccan Jews with only 20% European.

Take a look at this Moroccan Jew-
https://i.ibb.co/tC27DPB/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-11-58-33-PM.png

Although her surname is Toledano (Toledo=Sephardic)


On the other hand... This Algerian-Moroccan-Tunisian Jew is extremely European (Saw her picture, she also looks very much like North Italian to me.. very fair skin and blue eyes and Alpine features.. just she has curly hair like a good Jewish)

https://i.ibb.co/2K7zcdb/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-11-58-57-PM.png

Both are extremely Atypical.

I don't think it's possible to know how much European Ashkenazim would score on 23andme as they also mixed with other populations (possibly with even different types of Italians). I guess more than 50% (although the North shift to Sephardim is mainly because of some Germanic-Slavic mix and not % of European)
All I know is that in Israel Moroccan&Algerian Jews are considered "Mizrahim" even tho the distance between MJ to Ashkenazim is about 7-9 on gedmatch while the distance of MJ to Iraqi jews or proper Mizrahim is 30+++

About the Megharbi component, full Berber tribes converted to Judaism prior to the rise of Islam so I am not that surprised it's sometimes higher than the West Asian levantine.


81.2% North African, 3.1% Western Asia
God damn, that's a true full on descendant of converts. I know you said it's atypical but damn.

Though we plot north of Sephardim that is because of more northern components and weirdly not because we are more much more European then them as you said - we mixed with Poles and Russians and you with Meds. We still both come out around 50/50 give or take.

Yeah I always found that strange once I discovered Moroccans are damn close to us. I think it's because we have that 10-15% admixture that makes 1 in 6 Ashkenazim look like the child of Hitler so that's the stereotype we got stuck with, while Moroccans have very little of that as they only mixed with other Meds.

[Phenix]

Good thread, OP.

[Sp_loa]

BTW 23andme is one of the most accurate company cause unlike ancestryDNA, LivingDNA or other companies they know to separate levantine from Italian.
Lebanese and Syrians score 95%+ MENA on 23andme (while on AncestryDNA all MENAS get 30% Italian which is impossible) , so we know for sure that no levantine is eclipsed in the Italian category.

[Sp_loa]

God damn, that's a true full on descendant of converts. I know you said it's atypical but damn.

Though we plot north of Sephardim that is because of more northern components and weirdly not because we are more much more European then them as you said - we mixed with Poles and Russians and you with Meds. We still both come out around 50/50 give or take.

Yeah I always found that strange once I discovered Moroccans are damn close to us. I think it's because we have that 10-15% admixture that makes 1 in 6 Ashkenazim look like the child of Hitler so that's the stereotype we got stuck with, while Moroccans have very little of that as they only mixed with other Meds.

I know more than a few Moroccan Jews that can pass well above France. Few people in my family as well.
Although It's true I know much more Ashkenazim that are Borreby/Brunn/Sub-Nordic/North Atlantic. One of my friends is 75% Ashkenazi (Germany), 25% Sephardi (Bulgaria) and he and all of his siblings look English as fuck (2 Borrebies, 1 Brunn and 1 North-Atlantid) all with red/blonde/light brown hair and light blue eyes.

[Sp_loa]

Good thread, OP.

Thanks! any thoughts?

[FilhoV]

Well done and very appreciated thread

[waam]

Thanks for this. I've found myself not once trying to unsuccessfully find Maghrebi Jewish results. Could be cool to see some Tunisian and Libyan results as well.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Sp_loa]

Thanks for this. I've found myself not once trying to unsuccessfully find Maghrebi Jewish results. Could be cool to see some Tunisian and Libyan results as well.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

They don't match my grandmother so I have no way to find them. My grandmother matches only 4 full Tunisian Jews and 7 full Algerian Jews. Luckily there are 150 full Moroccan Jews.

[Sp_loa]

Well done and very appreciated thread

Thanks .Any thoughts about ancestry composition/Haplogroups? did something surprised you?

[waam]

They don't match my grandmother so I have no way to find them. My grandmother matches only 4 full Tunisian Jews and 7 full Algerian Jews. Luckily there are 150 full Moroccan Jews.Yeah of course, I imagined. They are separate communities after all.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[FilhoV]

Thanks .Any thoughts about ancestry composition/Haplogroups? did something surprised you?

Being Haplogroup G that stood out to me on FTDNA my final position is G-M406 on Big Y

Also I wasn’t surprised with the averages on the results the Algerian in Moroccan Jews are essentially half Iberian/italic half Levantine

[Sp_loa]

Being Haplogroup G that stood out to me on FTDNA my final position is G-M406 on Big Y

Also I wasn’t surprised with the averages on the results the Algerian in Moroccan Jews are essentially half Iberian half Levantine

Actually it seems like North African Jews have much more Italian ancestry than Iberian. In some cases it's even or Iberian>Italian, but there is strong Italian component.
Don;t forget it's not pure 50% Levant 50% Europe as there is strong Berber component, sometimes stronger than the levantine.

[Kamal900]

That's a great thread. Wished that there had been this many Palestinian results. I know I've said this in the past, but 23andMe don't send their kits to the middle east except for Israel. I'm surprised that they score a little more European ancestry though. I've heard a lot of these Jews went to the Americas as cypto-Jews and mixed with the natives and so on.

[Sp_loa]

.....I'm surprised that they score a little more European ancestry though. I've heard a lot of these Jews went to the Americas as cypto-Jews and mixed with the natives and so on.

I might be just tired (3AM) but I don’t understand to whom are you referring and in what context lol

[Kamal900]

I might be just tired (3AM) but I don’t understand to whom are you referring and in what context lol

I was talking about the Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity and migrated to the new world. I've seen many Latinos here who scored small amount of Jewish ancestries. It's 4:52 AM here and I just woke up, rofl. Take some rest, bro.

[Sp_loa]

I was talking about the Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity and migrated to the new world. I've seen many Latinos here who scored small amount of Jewish ancestries. It's 4:52 AM here and I just woke up, rofl. Take some rest, bro.

What do you think about the results of these North African jews? Are you surprised by the high Berber? By the diversity (European can be anything from 30% to 60%..)?

[Kamal900]

What do you think about the results of these North African jews? Are you surprised by the high Berber? By the diversity (European can be anything from 30% to 60%..)?

I'm not surprised about the Berber admixtures considering that they admixed with them from ancient times similarly we Palestinians also have some Berber ancestries like me and happycow during the French colonial rule of Algeria where many Berber groups like the Kabyle and the Riffians migrated to what is now Israel 200 years ago. Yeah, I think it's the most surprising fact is showing that ancient Jews did not only mixed with Italians and so on. It seems they also mixed and assimilated a good chunk of Iberian genes in their genepool as well. I can say that Jews - like their Semitic cousins, the Arabs - are very diverse Semitic grouping in terms of cultures and genetics.

[Smeagol]

I'm surprised by the relatively high amount of both Iberian and Berber. Do you know if Ashkenazi Jews also share some of this ancestry?

[lisarb]

I'm not surprised about the Berber admixtures considering that they admixed with them from ancient times similarly we Palestinians also have some Berber ancestries like me and happycow during the French colonial rule of Algeria where many Berber groups like the Kabyle and the Riffians migrated to what is now Israel 200 years ago. Yeah, I think it's the most surprising fact is showing that ancient Jews did not only mixed with Italians and so on. It seems they also mixed and assimilated a good chunk of Iberian genes in their genepool as well. I can say that Jews - like their Semitic cousins, the Arabs - are very diverse Semitic grouping in terms of cultures and genetics.

Sephardi Jews are mix jews, berber and iberian?

[Sp_loa]

Sephardi Jews are mix jews, berber and iberian?

Nope. There are different groups of Sephardim.
East Sephardim are mix of Ashkenazim, Judeans and Italians (Berber and Iberian componentes are typically low)
North African sephardim are mix of Judean,Italian,Iberian and Berber. They received migration waves from conversos thus higher Iberian. North African are very heterogeneous- anything from 35% to 60% European on average.

[Sp_loa]

I'm surprised by the relatively high amount of both Iberian and Berber. Do you know if Ashkenazi Jews also share some of this ancestry?

Some Ashkenazim have Berber haplogroups, probably migration of Andalusi Jews (from Morocco) to Central Europe back at the 14th-17th centuries.
Autosomally- nothing sagnificsnt. They are Mainly mix of Italian (sometimes bit of Spanish) ,Judean, some French, bit of German andsome Slavic (not every Ashkenazi has Slavic).

[talombo]

Take a look at this Moroccan Jew-
https://i.ibb.co/tC27DPB/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-11-58-33-PM.png

Although her surname is Toledano (Toledo=Sephardic)


I matched with her too 0.66% 50cM

[Sp_loa]

I matched with her too 0.66% 50cM

Maybe my grandmother matches you too lol.

What do you think about results posted here? You scored less European on 23andme but I think it's because your egyptian Jewish side as Egyptian Jews don't score high European.

[Kamal900]

Bro, could you make a separate thread regarding the 23andMe results of Palestinians? I'm curious to see their results.

[Sp_loa]

Bro, could you make a separate thread regarding the 23andMe results of Palestinians? I'm curious to see their results.

I have no access to 23andme results of Palestinians.
Those results are matches of my grandmother.
She matches mainly Moroccan Jews, French-Jews mixes, Hispanics from Mexico and Puerto-Rico and mixed Israeli Jews.
No Arabs in the matches list... Sorry. You can view only the results of a match.

[talombo]

Maybe my grandmother matches you too lol.

What do you think about results posted here? You scored less European on 23andme but I think it's because your egyptian Jewish side as Egyptian Jews don't score high European.

I guess all Moroccan jews are related to each other to some degree,
I've seen many Moroccan Jews results before so I'm not surprised by the results you posted,
I did score less Italian and Iberian than a typical Moroccan Jew but more west asian and ashkenazi,
Egypt was kind of a Jewish melting pot in the 19 century, Jews moved to Egypt from many other countries so
there are no typical Egyptian jew results.
Did you grandmother get many ashkenazi matches ?
My relative list is full of american ashkenazi jews, some of them are 100% ashkenazi.

[Longbowman]

Interesting. It makes sense that the Oran population is more European (probably Tetuan too, the centres of Haketia that attracted the largest numbers of Iberian Jews) whereas Jews from more remote areas of the Maghreb might be better representative of the autochtonous pre-Sephardic population. Tunisia of course still has an extant pre-Sephardic Jewish population (the Djerban Jews) so I see why central-north-Africa is also less European.

By comparison my family (obviously not pure) seems to score more Ashkenazi, more European, less MENA in general on 23andme, probably because as Western Sephardim with some Eastern blood but no known North African we lack that Maghrebi component.

[Sp_loa]

Interesting. It makes sense that the Oran population is more European (probably Tetuan too, the centres of Haketia that attracted the largest numbers of Iberian Jews) whereas Jews from more remote areas of the Maghreb might be better representative of the autochtonous pre-Sephardic population. Tunisia of course still has an extant pre-Sephardic Jewish population (the Djerban Jews) so I see why central-north-Africa is also less European.

By comparison my family (obviously not pure) seems to score more Ashkenazi, more European, less MENA in general on 23andme, probably because as Western Sephardim with some Eastern blood but no known North African we lack that Maghrebi component.

North African Sephardim are significantly more Iberian than East Sephardim. It can be up to 25%+
I think they are even more Europeans than East Sephardim, it’s just that the Megharbi component is a South shift.

[Sp_loa]

I guess all Moroccan jews are related to each other to some degree,
I've seen many Moroccan Jews results before so I'm not surprised by the results you posted,
I did score less Italian and Iberian than a typical Moroccan Jew but more west asian and ashkenazi,
Egypt was kind of a Jewish melting pot in the 19 century, Jews moved to Egypt from many other countries so
there are no typical Egyptian jew results.
Did you grandmother get many ashkenazi matches ?
My relative list is full of american ashkenazi jews, some of them are 100% ashkenazi.


Not many Ashkenazim. Very few Polish and Russian Jews. I can count them with my 2 hands.

[Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda]

Excellent thread !!

It's obvious that North African Jews have diverse origins.
All of these origins have evident historical explanations :
- The Judean/Hebrew/Levantine component date back to the substrate
- The Italian-like could be explained by the Judaized Italians who settled in the other Roman provinces (such as Mauritenia Tingitana or Hispania)
- The Iberian component has two explanations as you have stressed it
- The Berber component clearly date back to preislamic times (like the other components)

[Sp_loa]

Atlas mountains Jews:

1.
https://i.ibb.co/7zTjZdN/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-11-43-56-AM.png

MTDNA: H4a1 (Spain and Portugal)
YDNA: J-P58 (Arabia)


2. Jew from Beni mellal -
https://i.ibb.co/JdnJJsN/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-11-49-46-AM.png

YDNA- G-M406 (mainly Southern Italy)
mtdna- H1e (Basque)


3.

https://i.ibb.co/pddQcTm/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-01-03-PM.png
Ydna- E-V13 (Europe)
Mtdna- K1c2a (Ireland)


4.
https://i.ibb.co/JxDgHt1/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-02-49-PM.png

Mtdna- U4a2a (Slavo-Germanic)


5. Errachedia and Midelt provinces (South-Central Morocco).Very atypical results- pure mix of Berber and black.

https://i.ibb.co/zH5nwMd/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-07-49-PM.png

YDNA- E-M183 (North African Berber)
mtdna- H1

6.
https://i.ibb.co/xjXMwg1/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-20-37-PM.png
YDNA- G-PF3345 (Europe and Western Asia)

mtdna- I4


7.
https://i.ibb.co/ngS5H40/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-24-30-PM.png

YDNA- G-Z348 (Iberia)
Mtdna- K1a3a1a (Western Europe)

8.

https://i.ibb.co/PxRZN6b/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-28-50-PM.png

YDNA- G-L1266 (Europe and Caucasus)

Mtdna- K1c2a (Ireland)

9.

https://i.ibb.co/7WnnLCG/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-32-26-PM.png

YDNA- J-M267 (Middle East)

mtdna- H


10.
https://i.ibb.co/Sc7mNtB/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-37-18-PM.png

MtDNA- HV0 (Iberia)

11.
https://i.ibb.co/FbB6NwZ/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-38-13-PM.png

Mtdna- H1


12.
https://i.ibb.co/G9HQMs5/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-39-17-PM.png

Mtdna: H4a1b (Spain and Portugal)


13.
https://i.ibb.co/G9HQMs5/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-39-17-PM.png

Mtdna:
YDNA: T-L208 (North Africa and the Middle east)
Mtdna: HV1a2 (MENA)


14.
https://i.ibb.co/0GK8CQk/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-12-57-37-PM.png

YDNA- E-V257 (North African Berber)
mtdna- U5b2b (Western European- Italy, France, NW Europe)


15.

https://i.ibb.co/SNjwFgP/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-1-02-32-PM.png

Ydna- J-M172 (Western Asia and the Caucasus)
Mtdna- HV0 (Iberia)


16.
https://i.ibb.co/Qc0tpjv/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-1-07-00-PM.png Very levantine

YDNA- Q-M378 (prediasopral Judean)
MTDNA- H4a1b (Spain and Portugal)


17.
https://i.ibb.co/Byxq7J7/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-1-17-27-PM.png

YDNA- J-L26 (J2 subclade)
MTDNA- K1a3a1a (Western Europe)

[Sp_loa]

Jews from TangIer-Tetouan (Spanish speaking Jews, don't identify as Moroccan Jews BUT AS Andalusian)

1.

https://i.ibb.co/Tvhhfts/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-2-29-55-PM.png

YDNA- J-L26 (levant)

MTDNA- H1e



2.
https://i.ibb.co/12dZNp3/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-2-32-06-PM.png

YDNA- J-M319 (Middle east)

Mtdna- H1e (Basque)

3.
https://i.ibb.co/b2gSFzx/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-at-2-33-29-PM.png

YDNA- R-U152 (France and Northern Italy)
Mtdna- H14 (Levant)

[Sp_loa]

To conclude this thread- Moroccan Jews are a diverse group of people, descendants from 4 main different groups- Italians, Judeans from the Levant, Local Amazigh Berbers and Spaniards from Iberia.

Sephardi Jews settled mainly in the big Northern cities leading to more Europeanized genetic in those areas.


Average Jew from Tangier-Tetouan would be strongly Iberian, and would score anywhere around 60% or even close to 70% European.
Average Jew from Fez-Meknes would score anywhere around 50-55% European
Average Jew from the Northern of the Atlas mountains would be around 40% European
Average Jew from Casablanca would be around 40% European too.
Jews from South of the Atlas mountains would score around 30% European.

Jews from the very South of Morocco would score less than 25% European.

Berber admix increases as you go South as well.

Here you go- Moroccan Jews are the most diverse group of Jews in my opinion- autosomally, in haplogroups (in the north they are more J and R1b, in the south more G) and phenotypically (anything from levant looking, berber looking, Southern European looking to Western and even NW European looking).

[waam]

Great post. Thanks. That third black Jew was certainly a surprise to see. I wonder what they look like and whether they are supposedly fully Moroccan Jewish or whether they are mixed to begin with.

Also interesting is how much of the North African and Arabian is actually Amazigh and how much of it is Levantine related, too bad they can't break it any further.

[ModernMaskil]

Still think it's crazy how so many have more Maghrebi DNA than Levantine. Perfectly understandable but not something I ever expected before I saw this thread.

[Sp_loa]

Great post. Thanks. That third black Jew was certainly a surprise to see. I wonder what they look like and whether they are supposedly fully Moroccan Jewish or whether they are mixed to begin with.

Also interesting is how much of the North African and Arabian is actually Amazigh and how much of it is Levantine related, too bad they can't break it any further.

Mostly Amazigh. levantine group (Syrians, Lebanese and Syrian Jews) usually score max 10% North African&Arabian, but 23andme tend to exaggerate the Megrahbi component. My grandmother first scored 27% and in the beta she is 21%, and her levantine increases. I believe 20% is around right. It will be interesting to see how the percentages will change with future updates.

[waam]

Mostly Amazigh. levantine group (Syrians, Lebanese and Syrian Jews) usually score max 10% North African&Arabian, but 23andme tend to exaggerate the Megrahbi component. My grandmother first scored 27% and in the beta she is 21%, and her levantine increases. I believe 20% is around right. It will be interesting to see how the percentages will change with future updates.Iirc there was a Christian member here from Bethlehem that scored 40 something percent North African and Arabian, relating it to Jordan. So unless his results changed dramatically (which I have no idea) then there's still some overlap between the two clusters.

[talombo]

Turkish jew for comparison:

https://i.imgur.com/4AGtSoh.jpg

[Sp_loa]

Iirc there was a Christian member here from Bethlehem that scored 40 something percent North African and Arabian, relating it to Jordan. So unless his results changed dramatically (which I have no idea) then there's still some overlap between the two clusters.

You are right, but I saw Syrian Jew scoring only 5% North African& Arabian and his YDNA is Berber (E-M81), probably from Al-Andlus. I'm pretty sure in the future 23andme will separate this category to two different categories- North African (Berber) and Arabian related ancestry separately. We will see then.

[Sp_loa]

Turkish jew for comparison:

https://i.imgur.com/4AGtSoh.jpg

hmm this Turkish Jew also scores North African and Arabian. maybe part of it is levantine related ancestry.

Anyways to this day I don't understand why Turkish Jews score lower European than the average North/Central Moroccan Jew. I think it's because larger conversos migration waves (some were almost full Iberian by blood) were to Northern Morocco than to the Ottoman Empire. Tetouani Jews score minimum 25% Iberian, Turkish jews around 4%....

[ModernMaskil]

hmm this Turkish Jew also scores North African and Arabian. maybe part of it is levantine related ancestry.

Anyways to this day I don't understand why Turkish Jews score lower European than the average North/Central Moroccan Jew. I think it's because larger conversos migration waves (some were almost full Iberian by blood) were to Northern Morocco than to the Ottoman Empire. Tetouani Jews score minimum 25% Iberian, Turkish jews around 4%....

Aren't Turkish Jews way more Euro shifted than Moroccans? Like, to the degree of being closer to AJ's than the former?

[Sp_loa]

Aren't Turkish Jews way more Euro shifted than Moroccans? Like, to the degree of being closer to AJ's than the former?

Not really a great difference compared to central Moroccan Jews. I'm pretty sure Northern Moroccan Jews are even north shifted to Turkish Sephardim
Moroccan Jews are South shifted because of their Berber ancestry (Berber is a huge south shift) and not because of being less European. In fact it seems like Moroccan Jews are more Iberian, and more European in general.

[ModernMaskil]

Not really a great difference compared to central Moroccan Jews. I'm pretty sure Northern Moroccan Jews are even north shifted to Turkish Sephardim
Moroccan Jews are South shifted because of their Berber ancestry (Berber is a huge south shift) and not because of being less European. In fact it seems like Moroccan Jews are more Iberian, and more European in general.

Okay. Makes sense I guess. I think I've said before that AJ's aren't even much more European than MJ's, only our East Euro makes us plot way closer North of some South Euro groups and your berber South of them. Pine is a great example of what Ashkenazim without East Euro admix (uncommon but found) look like genetically.

[Sp_loa]

Okay. Makes sense I guess. I think I've said before that AJ's aren't even much more European than MJ's, only our East Euro makes us plot way closer North of some South Euro groups and your berber South of them. Pine is a great example of what Ashkenazim without East Euro admix (uncommon but found) look like genetically.

Most people in Israel aren't aware of the different distinct communities of Morocco and Algeria.
Moroccan Jews from different areas are not only genetically different (and tend to look physically different) , but also have sometimes different languages (Judeo Arabic vs different Judeo Berber variants vs the Judeo-Spanish of the North) , different cuisine, different clothes... like a complete different ethnicity.

Most Moroccan Jews from the North for example don't identify as Moroccan Jews. They are very small community but they were very ashamed when in Israel people decided they are Moroccans. To this day when you ask them "what are you"? They will say Spanish from Andalucia. And they indeed never spoke Moroccan Arabic, and are not very familiar with Moroccan traditions. I have distant roots in these areas so I know what I am talking about.

https://www.haaretz.co.il/food/dining/.premium-1.2629855

https://shaultweig.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/%D7%91%D7%97%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%92%D7%AA-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%93%D7%99/

https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/education/.premium-1.2347891

[Pine]

Still think it's crazy how so many have more Maghrebi DNA than Levantine. Perfectly understandable but not something I ever expected before I saw this thread.

It's bullshit. You guys trust 23andMe too much. Here is a Samaritan for reference:

http://i50.tinypic.com/21ls9kz.jpg

[Pine]

Most people in Israel aren't aware of the different distinct communities of Morocco and Algeria.
Moroccan Jews from different areas are not only genetically different (and tend to look physically different) , but also have sometimes different languages (Judeo Arabic vs different Judeo Berber variants vs the Judeo-Spanish of the North) , different cuisine, different clothes... like a complete different ethnicity.

Most Moroccan Jews from the North for example don't identify as Moroccan Jews. They are very small community but they were very ashamed when in Israel people decided they are Moroccans. To this day when you ask them "what are you"? They will say Spanish from Andalucia. And they indeed never spoke Moroccan Arabic, and are not very familiar with Moroccan traditions. I have distant roots in these areas so I know what I am talking about.

https://www.haaretz.co.il/food/dining/.premium-1.2629855

https://shaultweig.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/%D7%91%D7%97%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%92%D7%AA-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%93%D7%99/

https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/education/.premium-1.2347891

Habibi, what type are Kim Edri,Emmanuelle Chriqui, and Ofir Ben Shitrit?

[Pine]

Okay. Makes sense I guess. I think I've said before that AJ's aren't even much more European than MJ's, only our East Euro makes us plot way closer North of some South Euro groups and your berber South of them. Pine is a great example of what Ashkenazim without East Euro admix (uncommon but found) look like genetically.

I'm a great example of how anyone can look like.

[Sp_loa]

It's bullshit. You guys trust 23andMe too much. Here is a Samaritan for reference:

http://i50.tinypic.com/21ls9kz.jpg

This is years before their recent updates. They improved drastically!!! You can't judge them by the results they had 2/3 years ago.
They are now the most accurate company to date.

[Pine]

This is years before their recent updates. They improved drastically!!! You can't judge them by the results they had 2/3 years ago.
They are now the most accurate company to date.

What makes you trust them so much today?

[Sp_loa]

What makes you trust them so much today?

In 23andme Lebanese get 90%+ west Asia (with spesific natch to lebanon) while in ancestry they are 25% Italians. Syrians too.
Italians have very accurate results. Spaniards too, Northern Europeans too.
Larin Americans get very reasonable percentages. They only have problems with French ancestry and South Asian ancestry but they are working on it (South Asian beta ect)
Their results are very in par with gedmatch. They have broadly categories (that people hate), but what to do it’s sometimes impossible to distinguish between close populations (Spanish and Portuguese for example) while ancestry just guesses. I saw mexican with 40% Portugal in Ancestry which is not likely.
Their “recent locations of ancestry” feature received mainly good responses.

My grandmother results, especially the beta, seem in line with Gedmatch.

Also they release updates frequently that improve their results, minimum 3 updates a year while Ftdna didn’t release an update for 2.5 years.

So 23andme used to suck, but they did major improvements and they are now the best.

[Pine]

Habibi, what type are Kim Edri,Emmanuelle Chriqui, and Ofir Ben Shitrit?

Can you answer this - for purely scientific purposes..

[waam]

In 23andme Lebanese get 90%+ west Asia (with spesific natch to lebanon) while in ancestry they are 25% Italians. Syrians too.
Italians have very accurate results. Spaniards too, Northern Europeans too.
Larin Americans get very reasonable percentages. They only have problems with French ancestry and South Asian ancestry but they are working on it (South Asian beta ect)
Their results are very in par with gedmatch. They have broadly categories (that people hate), but what to do it’s sometimes impossible to distinguish between close populations (Spanish and Portuguese for example) while ancestry just guesses. I saw mexican with 40% Portugal in Ancestry which is not likely.
Their “recent locations of ancestry” feature received mainly good responses.

My grandmother results, especially the beta, seem in line with Gedmatch.

Also they release updates frequently that improve their results, minimum 3 updates a year while Ftdna didn’t release an update for 2.5 years.

So 23andme used to suck, but they did major improvements and they are now the best.Well imo it's not that difficult to be accurate considering they lump together the entirety of Western Asia from the Caucasus through Iran to Mesopotamia down to the Levant all together, and on top of that have a loophole for inaccuracies by lumping together Arabia with North Africa (because it's more forgiving to confuse Western Asia with Arabia than it it with North Africa).

Personally imo for people who are mostly MENA 23andme isn't all that useful.

[Sp_loa]

Can you answer this - for purely scientific purposes..

None of them can pass in my family. About types IDK.

[Lemgrant]

>>

[mihyar]

They don't match my grandmother so I have no way to find them. My grandmother matches only 4 full Tunisian Jews and 7 full Algerian Jews. Luckily there are 150 full Moroccan Jews.

Do you have access to the Tunisian + Libyans' haplogroups?
Do any of the Libyans show significant Iberian or Italian?

[mihyar]

If only they would disaggregate North African from Arabian + Southern Levantine.

[Lemgrant]

>>

[Numidia]

If only they would disaggregate North African from Arabian + Southern Levantine.

When I asked for explanations they said it would be too difficult to do sub categories
They also put all west med component under "iberian" it's more politically correct to give more Iberian to north africans rather than the opposite

[Sp_loa]

When I ask for explanations they said it would too difficult to do sub categories
They also put all west med component under "iberian" it's more politically correct to give more Iberian to north africans rather than the opposite

I hope it will be fixed in future updates.

[RMuller]

Thanks .Any thoughts about ancestry composition/Haplogroups? did something surprised you?

The question wasn't for me but why do alot score so little Ashkenazi Jewish between 2.3%-7% etc?

These Mexicans score between 1.5%-3% Ashkenazi Jewish .I don't think any of them have recent Jewish ancestors.

http://i.imgur.com/AXSVG57.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA



http://i.imgur.com/RuR3TSw.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page2

http://i.imgur.com/7pksbYs.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page2


http://i.imgur.com/uBsGU1j.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page2


http://i.imgur.com/268KwuU.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page3





These other Mexicans on other dna companies score more.This guy is descendant of sefardic Jews who founded Saltillo ,Mexico.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5tkHwgdtVZ8/Vao3T6ogHmI/AAAAAAAAH3A/XlnUXj2CTGw/w302-h865-no/Moises%2BGarza%2BDNA%2BResults%2B2.JPG
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page4

His cousin
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Qekzeo7FcxQ/Ve6nhaquhXI/AAAAAAAAIK4/Tp7ORjKrQiY/w289-h746-no/Crispin%2BRendon%2BDNA%2BResults.JPG
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page4

[Sp_loa]

The question wasn't for me but why do alot score so little Ashkenazi Jewish between 2.3%-7% etc?

These Mexicans score between 1.5%-3% Ashkenazi Jewish .I don't think any of them have recent Jewish ancestors.

http://i.imgur.com/AXSVG57.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA



http://i.imgur.com/RuR3TSw.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page2

http://i.imgur.com/7pksbYs.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page2


http://i.imgur.com/uBsGU1j.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page2


http://i.imgur.com/268KwuU.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page3





These other Mexicans on other dna companies score more.This guy is descendant of sefardic Jews who founded Saltillo ,Mexico.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5tkHwgdtVZ8/Vao3T6ogHmI/AAAAAAAAH3A/XlnUXj2CTGw/w302-h865-no/Moises%2BGarza%2BDNA%2BResults%2B2.JPG
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page4

His cousin
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Qekzeo7FcxQ/Ve6nhaquhXI/AAAAAAAAIK4/Tp7ORjKrQiY/w289-h746-no/Crispin%2BRendon%2BDNA%2BResults.JPG
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187849-70-94-Euro-Amerindian-mixes-Fotos-DNA/page4

Many new worlder have Sephardic Jewish roots (especially Puerto ricans and Mexicans, I match many of them as 4th-6th cousins). Sephardi Jews are shown as mix of Italian-Western Asian- Iberian- Ashkenazi (because many Ashkenazim, probably from the reference group as well, have some Sephardi admix and in general both groups are quite similar) and North African so Mexicans with Sephardi ancestry will score some Ashkenazi.

[Longbowman]

^proof that European Sephardim score Ashkenazi on some tests. I score Sephardi on FTDNA but my great aunt, who is 3/32 Sephardi, 29/32 Silesian Ashkenazi gets none at all, when she should get 9-10%. The Sephardi reference is almost certainly Moroccan or maybe part Balkan.

[RMuller]

Many new worlder have Sephardic Jewish roots (especially Puerto ricans and Mexicans, I match many of them as 4th-6th cousins). Sephardi Jews are shown as mix of Italian-Western Asian- Iberian- Ashkenazi (because many Ashkenazim, probably from the reference group as well, have some Sephardi admix and in general both groups are quite similar) and North African so Mexicans with Sephardi ancestry will score some Ashkenazi.

How much Jewish ancestry do you think the Mexicans that i posted have when you include sefardic ancestry? 4-5% ? Their Jewish ancestors must have been mixed with European,so they get like 6-8% of their DNA from past Jewish ancestors?

[talombo]

I know this thread is about north-african jews results from 23andme but I thought it might be interesting to compare it with what they get on AncestryDNA
so here are some of my matches from Ancestry (I assume they are north african jews just by the surnames but I can't be sure)

https://i.imgur.com/iSt5sGH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MvqWALA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/P5vRJEz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VUD4eTy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/i94Dx1A.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ndWV2Cc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/peQUFaZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QzpaT8z.jpg

[Pine]

Here is another one for you (family tree all north african jewish):

https://i.imgur.com/AonLy28.png

[Sp_loa]

In general I think 23andme is more accurate than ancestryDNA. I don’t claim 23andme is perfect as they still have hard time differentiating southern levant and North Africa they should fix it in their next beta.

Even in AncestryDNA you can see that the European-MENA ratio varies but I do know AncestryDNA assigns high Italian for MENA-European mixed people. I only have problem with the European being almost solely Italian (which seems to be more true for East Sephardim), and with a very low North African (1%? For real?).

I’m not sure what to say? Thanks for sharing I guess. It will be interesting to see how it changes in both 23andme and AncestryDNA.
I’m going to stick with 23andme for now.

[Sp_loa]

https://i.ibb.co/crR2xDm/8-F8-E6028-8-C8-E-40-C9-BB8-E-7-DB646-AAC4-F0.jpg

AncestryDNA results of Ethnic Algerian (muslim).

Again, I don’t find these very accurate. Very high italian (why so high? And why Italian? Should be Spanish regarding history) and very high Middle East (why? Algerians are typicaly arabized berbers not Arabs). Only 30% Berber for ethnic Algerian?
I always browse in 23andme and AncestryDNA subreddit and people tested with 23andme say it’s more inline with what they know.

Again i don’t have any agenda. I just think AncestryDNA has some serious problems with Italian-Iberian and Middle East-North Africa.
23andme also has some problems assigning Southern levant in the North African-Arabian category and that why I don’t take their NA/Arabian percentage in moroccan jews as solely Berber (it’s obviously part levantine).

Moroccan Jews are more mixed and complicated than the companies can handle for now. Again I’m going to stick with 23andme but it would be interesting to see how it changes in the future for both companies.

[Leto]

The question wasn't for me but why do alot score so little Ashkenazi Jewish between 2.3%-7% etc?

These Mexicans score between 1.5%-3% Ashkenazi Jewish .I don't think any of them have recent Jewish ancestors.

This guy is Mexican and Salvadoran

https://youtu.be/_m3U-FEgLIQ

44.9% European
- 41.5% Southern European
- 1.1% Ashkenazi Jewish
- 0.2% Northwestern European
- 2.0% Broadly European

41.3% East Asian & Native American

4.9% Western Asian & North African
- 2.9% North African & Arabian
- 0.8% Western Asian
- 1.1% Broadly Western Asian & North African

3.8% Sub-Saharan African

5.2% unassigned

[Longbowman]

In general I think 23andme is more accurate than ancestryDNA. I don’t claim 23andme is perfect as they still have hard time differentiating southern levant and North Africa they should fix it in their next beta.

Even in AncestryDNA you can see that the European-MENA ratio varies but I do know AncestryDNA assigns high Italian for MENA-European mixed people. I only have problem with the European being almost solely Italian (which seems to be more true for East Sephardim), and with a very low North African (1%? For real?).

I’m not sure what to say? Thanks for sharing I guess. It will be interesting to see how it changes in both 23andme and AncestryDNA.
I’m going to stick with 23andme for now.

My cousin (around 5/8 Spanish & Portuguese, 1/4 Ashkenazi, 1/8 Baghdadi) said the same.

[Sp_loa]

My cousin (around 5/8 Spanish & Portuguese, 1/4 Ashkenazi, 1/8 Baghdadi) said the same.

Can you share his results?

[Longbowman]

Can you share his results?

On AncestryDNA? I don't know, I asked him (can't see his results, don't know how others are doing that) and he told me he's 79% European Jewish, 11% Middle East, 6% Anatolia, and the remaining 4% 'some odd bits.'

[happycow]

https://i.ibb.co/crR2xDm/8-F8-E6028-8-C8-E-40-C9-BB8-E-7-DB646-AAC4-F0.jpg

AncestryDNA results of Ethnic Algerian (muslim).

Again, I don’t find these very accurate. Very high italian (why so high? And why Italian? Should be Spanish regarding history) and very high Middle East (why? Algerians are typicaly arabized berbers not Arabs). Only 30% Berber for ethnic Algerian?
I always browse in 23andme and AncestryDNA subreddit and people tested with 23andme say it’s more inline with what they know.

Again i don’t have any agenda. I just think AncestryDNA has some serious problems with Italian-Iberian and Middle East-North Africa.
23andme also has some problems assigning Southern levant in the North African-Arabian category and that why I don’t take their NA/Arabian percentage in moroccan jews as solely Berber (it’s obviously part levantine).

Moroccan Jews are more mixed and complicated than the companies can handle for now. Again I’m going to stick with 23andme but it would be interesting to see how it changes in the future for both companies.

I recall seeing various North African gedmatch results and they seem to score rather high Red Sea do they not? Maybe that explains the high Mid East in Ancestry?

[Oriko]

[QUOTE=Sp_loa;5859697]History of Jews in North Africa-



Moroccan Jews


#2
https://i.ibb.co/nrx2QTp/Screen-Shot-2019-03-08-at-9-45-52-PM.png


MtDNA: H
YDNA: Q-YP1236 (Prediasporal Judean, found among Mizrahim, Ashkenazim and Sephardim)


I was curious about this - how was it determined that Q-YP1236 is prediasporal Jewish? (or Judean as you call it). Are there sources from which it could be implied?

Thanks :).