Haplogroup J1 in Europe.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#Europe

Originary of Arab countries (probably Yemen, 70% of J1), it's a particular Haplogroup common also in Daghestan (Muslim Caucasus), Pakistan and in all the Arabian Peninsula, Iran, southern Turkey, north Africa and Sudan.
http://www.anthropometry.info/Haplogroup_J1.jpg

In Europe is almost nonexistent, but higher frequencies has been reported in the central Adriatic regions of Italy Gargano Apulia(17.2%) and Pescara Abruzzo(15%)http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27309. Those percentages are strikingly high, you must know that in Turkey is lower.

It would be very interesting to discover how that area of Italy has the highest percentage of that haplogroup, even in Sicily which was in the past an arab land, the percentage of J1 is only the 10,7%

.

[Agrippa]

In very small and isolated groups, a haplogroup could rise to prominence even without a correspondingly strong autosomal influence. But its sheer presence above a certain niveau in Europe is still worth to mention.

Would be also interesting to know which exact variant of J1 is more common Europe:
Overall, the most frequent haplogroups in the Caucasus were G2a3b1-P303 (12%), G2a1a-P18 (8%), J1*-M267(xP58) (34%), and J2a4b*-M67(xM92) (21%), which together encompassed 73% of the Y chromosomes, while the other 24 haplogroups identified in our study comprise the remaining 27% (Table 2). ... haplogroup G2a3b1-P303 comprised at least 21% (and up to 86%) of the Y chromosomes in the Shapsug, Abkhaz and Circassians ... haplogroup G2a1a-P18 comprised at least 56% (and up to 73%) of the Digorians and Ironians (both from the Central Caucasus Iranic linguistic group), while not being found at more than 12% (average 3%) in other populations... haplogroup J2a4b*-M67(xM92) comprised 51-79% of the Y chromosomes in the Ingush and three Chechen populations (North-East Caucasus, Nakh linguistic group), while, in the rest of the Caucasus, its frequency was not higher than 9% (average 3%) ... haplogroup J1*-M267(xP58) comprised 44-99% of the Avar, Dargins, Kaitak, Kubachi, and Lezghins (South-East Caucasus, Dagestan linguistic group) but was less than 25% in Nakh populations and less than 5% in the rest of Caucasus.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

I think higher resolution in future research might help to reconstruct the exact pathway and migration pattern of J1 in Europe, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1c3d_(Y-DNA)

It was found among the Guanches as well:


The authors managed to extract Y-DNA from 30 individuals, most of them from La Palma, from the pre-colonial period. Additionally 42 individuals from the period of Castilian conquest were also sampled succefully.

The aboriginal Guanches (n=30) had the following haplogroups (sorted by numerical importance):

E1b1b1b (M81) - 8 - 26.7%
E1b1b1a (M78) - 7 - 23.3%
J1 (M267) - 5 - 16.7%
R1b1b2 (M69) - 3 - 10%
K(xP) (M9) - 3 - 10%
I (M170) - 2 - 6.7%
E1a (M33) - 1 - 3.3%
P(xR1) - 1 - 3.3%



http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/08/ancient-guanche-y-dna.html

Which might just prove the Afro-Asiatic link though:


Guanche is an extinct language that was spoken by the Guanches of the Canary Islands until the 16th or 17th century. It is only known today through a few sentences and individual words recorded by early travellers, supplemented by several placenames, as well as some words assimilated into the Canary Islanders' Spanish. Relationships with other languages have therefore been difficult to determine with certainty; however, it is almost certainly Afro-Asiatic, and many linguists consider Guanche to likely be one of, or to be related to, the Berber languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanche_language

[Sikeliot]

Maybe the regions of higher frequency in Italy are places that remaining Muslims in the south were deported to? Just a guess, going by history. If not this, it is probably something very ancient.

[Agrippa]

Maybe the regions of higher frequency in Italy are places that remaining Muslims in the south were deported to? Just a guess, going by history. If not this, it is probably something very ancient.

It could be Phoenician in certain places at least:
http://aulosinternet.wikispaces.com/file/view/map_01_Greek_and_Pheonician_Trade.gif/209545818/map_01_Greek_and_Pheonician_Trade.gif

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

Maybe the regions of higher frequency in Italy are places that remaining Muslims in the south were deported to? Just a guess, going by history. If not this, it is probably something very ancient.

no, Abruzzo was not a muslim land, and Apulia had a caliphate near gargano which lasted just 10 years.
While in Sicily, which have been muslim for centuries the Haplogroup J1 is about 10%, 5 points lower than Abruzzo.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

It could be Phoenician in certain places at least:
http://aulosinternet.wikispaces.com/file/view/map_01_Greek_and_Pheonician_Trade.gif/209545818/map_01_Greek_and_Pheonician_Trade.gif

But Phenicians had not settled in Abruzzo.

[Efim45]

Somebody post something about J1(mtDNA)

[Agrippa]

Somebody post something about J1(mtDNA)

But not in this thread, because J1 yDNA and J1 mtDNA are two completely different issues.

[Foxy]

The answer is simple: some Arabs were deported by Normans from Sicily to a little city of Apulia, called Lucera. There 50% of them were killed, while an other half continued to live. That's why in Lucera there is still a J1 community.

Lucera location:

http://luirig.altervista.org/geography/it/img2.php?recnum=resz_3174526.jpg

In Abruzzo there isn't J1, what arew you saying??? In Abruzzo more J1 than in Sicily? You must be mad. J1 diffusion:

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/J1.png


4 your info, Abruzzo is nothernmore than the green line. :thumbs up

[Foxy]

Also this map that you posted shows that J2 isn't found in Abruzzo. Abruzzo is northernmore than this... and your source is Wikipedia! WOW!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg.png

The map on the contrary shows that low percentage of J1 are found in Apulia/Molise, but they disappear in Abruzzo.

In Italy the only place with a relevant J1 diffusion is Lucera (Gargano), a Medieval Arabic settlements. Ethnically they don't descend from Italians and are separated from the other Apulians.

[Blossom]

I'm such an ignorant...I know nothing about Haplogroups...is J from Jewish? :D


Ok fixed. Just read above, sorry!

[Foxy]

History of Lucera - The Islamic period

Islamic periodFurther information: Muslim settlement of Lucera
In 1224 AD, Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, responding to religious uprisings in Sicily, expelled all Muslims from the island, transferring many to Lucera - "Lugêrah", as she was known in Arabic - over the next two decades. In this controlled environment, they could not challenge royal authority and they benefited the crown in taxes and military service. Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000, leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. During peacetime, Muslims in Lucera were predominately farmers. They grew durum wheat, barley, legumes, grapes and other fruits. Muslims also kept bees for honey.[2]

The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of Charles II of Naples. The city's Muslim inhabitants were exiled or sold into slavery,[3] with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[4] Their abandoned mosques were demolished, and churches were usually built in their place, including the cathedral S. Maria della Vittoria.[5]

After the Muslims were removed from Lucera, Charles tried to settle Christians in the city. Those Muslims that converted to Christianity got part of their property back, but none was restored his former position of political or economic influence. As time progressed, grain production fell in the city, and in 1339 the city was hit by a famine. Christians were allowed to farm as the Muslims.[6]

A low genetic Northwest African contribution among today's inhabitants near the region of Lucera was revealed by a very recent genetic study in 2009.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera#Islamic_period

This is how we Italians love Muzzies and treat them.
Modern Lucerins are a mix of Italians and converted Arabs, but it is an isolated case. Italy, as a whole, has been never conquered by Muslims. Only Sicily.

[Transhumanist]

Just a note to add that many varieties of J1 in Europe may have absolutely nothing to do with either Arab conquests or Jewish migrations. The highest haplotype diversity for both J1c3 and J1* are found among Caucasians (eg peoples of Dagestan), Anatolians (eg Armenians) and northern Mesopotamians (eg Assyrians). This area may also be the home to the R-M269 mutation. Not to mention, other types of Y-DNA now found with some degree of frequency in European men.

The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations (Chiaroni et al.) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n3/abs/ejhg2009166a.html)

Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region (Balanovsky et al.) (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/05/13/molbev.msr126.abstract)

[Fiore di Loto]

ahah now in Adriatic Italy we are muslim??? When????????? It's false.

[Grumpy Cat]

My grandfather was J1e. That side comes from Southern France. Possible Sephardi ancestry, I'm not sure.

[Fiore di Loto]

now I have read better, only in the area of Gargano and Pescara the J1 is more 15%,
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf, probably Veleda is right about Lucera, but also in Pescara is very high, Is it possible that muslim from Lucera have moved to Pescara? For me it's possible also that are from Albania, in Pescara there is a big community of Albanians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#Europe

[Transhumanist]

A member on DNA-Forums, victar, created this J1 map a few months ago. I do not agree with it completely, but it gets most of it right, based on the most current data. As one can see, most J1 is believed to have an origin in extreme eastern Anatolia, a bit north of northern Mesopotamia, and a bit west of the Caucasus. The Armenians are the autotochnous people of this immediate area, as the circle is practically covering Lake Van. This is also the general area with the highest concentrations of the "West Asian" ADMIXTURE component.

[Transhumanist]

My grandfather was J1e. That side comes from Southern France. Possible Sephardi ancestry, I'm not sure.

Is he tested with 23andMe only? How about FTDNA?

[StonyArabia]

J1 originated in Arabia and it was spread by Semitic conquests. This why Yemenites, Bedouins, Iraqis have large J1 lineage. Since they are all of the same genetic stock. J1 lineages drop in Northern Iraq and in the non-Semitic world in general. J2 seems to be associated with Persians and it's not Semitic probably it originated in the Mesopotamia and spread into Iran especially Western Iran where it is the dominant lineage. Neolithic, Arab conquest, and Jewish migration might have played a role in bringing this lineage to Europe. Most likely it's the Neolithic and possibly Jewish migration.

Here is an interesting article


The same authors dated Proto-Indo-European at 8.4ky, in agreement with the work of Gray and Atkinson. In the current paper they re-analyze the data of Kitchen et al. (2009) for Semitic languages, and their estimate is somewhat younger than 5,750 years of that paper. All in all, it's good to see different researchers using different techniques but coming up with similar solutions.

It is increasingly clear that while the Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in the Neolithic Near East, the Proto-Semites followed them by about three thousand years. In the latter case there is also a Y-chromosome marker (J-P58) with an apparent age in impeccable agreement with the linguistic evidence, now that the genealogical-"evolutionary" mutation wars seem to have been won.

This also brings into focus the weakness of the argument that Anthony (2007) (p. 76) brings to the table by hypothesizing that the first farmers of northern Syria were Afro-Asiatic speakers like the Semites of the Near Eastern lowlands. Semites come into the picture 5,000 years after the onset of the Neolithic, and 3,000 years after the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Their relationship with Afroasiatic speakers of Africa make it quite likely that they lived in the south, probably in Arabia, and certainly not in eastern Anatolia or northern Syria.

Indeed, the recent discovery that haplogroup J1*(xP58) is associated with Northeast Caucasian languages, together with the absence or paucity of J1 in most African Afroasiatic speakers suggests to me that the J-P58 Proto-Semites may be the result of the transfer of an African language on a basically West Asian population. Such a scenario might also explain some of the -incorrectly quantified, but nonetheless existent- African genetic components in both Jews and Arabs, as well as the pastoralist/dry-climate J1 associations.

Proceedings of the 26th International Workshop on Statistical Modelling.

Phylogenetic models for Semitic vocabulary.
Geoff K Nicholls and Robin J. Ryder

Abstract: Kitchen et al. (2009) analyze a data set of lexical trait data for twenty five Semitic languages, including ancient languages Hebrew, Aramaic and Akkadian, modern South Arabian and Arabic languages and fifteen ethiosemitic languages. They estimate a phylogenetic tree for the diversification of lexical traits using tree and trait models and methods set up for genetic sequence data. We reanalyze the data in a homplasy-free model for lexical trait data. We use a prior on phylogenies which is non-informative with respect to some of the key scientific hypotheses (concerning topology and root time). Our results are in broad agreement with those of Kitchen et al. (2009), though our 95% HPD for the root of the Semitic tree (the branching of Akkadian) is [4400, 5100]BP and we place Moroccan and Ogaden Arabic in the Modern South Arabian Group.

http://i55.tinypic.com/rr4dxf.png

[Foxy]

now I have read better, only in the area of Gargano and Pescara the J1 is more 15%,
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf, probably Veleda is right about Lucera, but also in Pescara is very high, Is it possible that muslim from Lucera have moved to Pescara? For me it's possible also that are from Albania, in Pescara there is a big community of Albanians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#Europe

Mmmm... I dunno. In Pescara there wasn't any Muslim domination, but in the last 30 years has gone there a large gyspie community. It is written that J1 is found a lot in Pakistan... Well, Roma gyspies are from that zone.

History of Pescara:

Pescara's origins precede the Roman conquest. The name of both the ancient city and the river was Aternum: it was connected to Rome through the Via Claudia Valeria and the Via Tiburtina. The main building was the temple of Jovis Aternium. The city was an important port for trade with the Eastern provinces of the Empire.

In the Middle Ages it was destroyed by the Lombards (597). Saint Cetteus, the city's patron saint, was a bishop of the 6th century, elected to the see of Amiternum in Sabina (today the city of San Vittorino) in 590, during the pontificate of Gregory the Great.[2] His legend goes that he was executed by the Lombards at Amiternum by being thrown off a bridge with a stone tied around his neck; his body floated to Pescara.[2]

In 1095 Pescara was a rich city with an important series of monuments and churches. In 1140 Roger of Sicily conquered the city, giving rise to a period in which it was destroyed by armies ravaging the Kingdom of Sicily. The name of Piscaria ("abounding with fish") is mentioned for the first time in this period. Several seignors ruled over Pescara afterwards, including Rainaldo Orsini, Louis of Savoy and Francesco del Borgo, the vicar of king Ladislas, who had the fortress and the tower built.

The subsequent rulers were the D'Avalos. In 1424 the famous condottiero Muzio Attendolo died here. Another adventurer, Jacopo Caldora, conquered the city in 1435 and 1439. In the following years Pescara was repeatedly attacked by the Venetians, and later, as part of the Spanish Kingdom of Naples, it was turned into a massive fortress.

In 1566 it was besieged by 105 Turk galleys. It resisted fiercely and the Ottomans only managed to ravage the surrounding territory.

At the beginning of the 18th century Pescara had some 3,000 inhabitants, half of them living in the Castellammare. In 1707 it was attacked by Austrian troops under the command of the duke of Wallis: the city, led by Giovanni Girolamo II Acquaviva, resisted for two months before capitulating.

Pescara was always part of the Kingdom of Naples, apart from the brief age of the Republic of Naples of 1798–1799. The city was therefore attacked by the pro-Bourbon Giuseppe Pronio. In 1800 Pescara fell to French troops, becoming an important military stronghold of Joseph Bonaparte's reign. Castellammare, which now had 3,000 inhabitants of its own, became a separate municipality.

In 1814, Pescara's Carboneria revolted against Joachim Murat. There, on May 15, 1815, the king undersigned one of the first constitutions of the Italian Risorgimento. In the following years Pescara became a symbol of the Bourbon's violent restoration as it housed one of the most notorious Bourbon jails. After a devastating flood in 1853, Pescara was liberated by Giuseppe Garibaldi's collaborator Clemente De Caesaris in 1860. Seven years later the fortress was dismantled.

In the following years, Pescara was merged with the adjacent town of Castellammare degli Abruzzi and eventually became the largest city of its region. The new city received a hard blow[3] during World War II and has since been massively rebuilt, becoming a very modern coastal city of Italy.

IT DOESN'T SPEAK OF ANY SEMITIC ORIGIN NOR MIGRATION.

[Transhumanist]

J1 originated in Arabia and it was spread by Semitic conquests. This why Yemenites, Bedouins, Iraqis have large J1 lineage. Since they are all of the same genetic stock. J1 lineages drop in Northern Iraq and in the non-Semitic world in general. J2 seems to be associated with Persians and it's not Semitic probably it originated in the Mesopotamia and spread into Iran especially Western Iran where it is the dominant lineage. Neolithic, Arab conquest, and Jewish migration might have played a role in bringing this lineage to Europe. Most likely it's the Neolithic and possibly Jewish migration.

Here is an interesting article

In Arabia, J1c3 has extreme high frequency and low haplotype diversity. Furthermore, there is a significant lack of J1 type diversity in Arabia. No academic continues to support a J1 origin in Arabia.

[Grumpy Cat]

Is he tested with 23andMe only? How about FTDNA?

Just 23andme.

[El Palleter]

It could be Phoenician in certain places at least:It's highly unlikely that ancient Phoenicians would have had J1 other than as admixture.

Modern Lebanese have it by way of the Arab conquest.

[Agrippa]

It's highly unlikely that ancient Phoenicians would have had J1 other than as admixture.

Modern Lebanese have it by way of the Arab conquest.

Well, I'm not sure about that, but probably we will know when they analysed actual Phoenician remains.

I think they will find J1, but ok, that's my opinion based on the facts I know and intuition added to that, proof means testing.

[Transhumanist]

Just a note to add that many varieties of J1 in Europe may have absolutely nothing to do with either Arab conquests or Jewish migrations. The highest haplotype diversity for both J1c3 and J1* are found among Caucasians (eg peoples of Dagestan), Anatolians (eg Armenians) and northern Mesopotamians (eg Assyrians). This area may also be the home to the R-M269 mutation. Not to mention, other types of Y-DNA now found with some degree of frequency in European men.

The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations (Chiaroni et al.) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n3/abs/ejhg2009166a.html)

Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region (Balanovsky et al.) (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/05/13/molbev.msr126.abstract)

Dienekes made this statement, I believe, for the first time, after the Balanovsky paper referred to above was published last month. He made a similar statement yesterday, on another forum (attachment). It was with regard to the origin of R-M269. If this is indeed correct, at least some types of J1 (among other hg types) may have accompanied R-M269 as it spread west. These migrations may also help to explain some of the autosomal components now observed in Europeans, in modest, low, or nearly negligible amounts.

Dodecad v3 West Asian Populations (principally):


POP East_E West_Eu Medit Neo_Af West_A So_Asi No_Asi Se_Asi E_Afri Sw_Asia Nw_Afri Pal_Af
GEO 4.1 5 17 0 72.3 0.1 0.5 0.4 0 0.5 0.1 0
LEZ 3.8 24.3 1.1 0 64.6 2.6 1.8 0.4 0 1.3 0 0
ADY 6.7 15.7 8.3 0 62.9 0.4 3.1 2.4 0 0.4 0.1 0
ARM 0.8 2.1 29 0 54 1.6 0.1 0.1 0.1 12.2 0.1 0
ASY 0.3 0.7 26.3 0 50.6 2.2 0.1 0.2 0 19.4 0 0
IRN 3.9 6 15.4 0.2 49.3 9.8 2 1.5 0.1 11.7 0.1 0
TUR 5.6 5.9 29.4 0.3 42.7 1.9 2.4 2.5 0.5 8.4 0.4 0.1

The highest frequencies (and haplotype diversity) of R-M269 in the Near East are found in Armenians, Assyrians, and NW Iranians. This is a relatively small area, with its center in the neighborhood of Lake Urmia, Iran.

Not a spoiler per se, but a bit of extra, perhaps unnecessary detail, regarding Lake Urmia:
On a personal note, Lake Urmia is the birthplace of my grandmother. It takes its name from "city" in Sumerian (Ur), and "water" in Assyrian-Aramaic (mia). So, basically, city of water, or city by the water.

[safinator]

I wonder what's the phenotype of Phoenicians?

[Agrippa]

Mostly Eastmediterranid I'd assume, with Armenoid, Alpinoid and Arabid tendencies. Pretty much like the old residents there today.

[El Palleter]

Well, I'm not sure about that, but probably we will know when they analysed actual Phoenician remains.So you admit that you were speculating with no bases whatsoever (read, bullshitting)


I think they will find J1, but ok, that's my opinion based on the facts I know and intuition added to that, proof means testing.You mean you hope? Still as admixture, more or less.


Mostly Eastmediterranid I'd assume, with Armenoid, Alpinoid and Arabid tendencies. Pretty much like the old residents there today.sure

[Agrippa]

So you admit that you were speculating with no bases whatsoever (read, bullshitting)


All Semites show J1, J1 was present in the region early on, so it is not "based on nothing", but rather the most likely scenario.

But the final proof can only be a tested historic sample, because even if J1 would be present where they were, you can't be sure they actually spread it in the region X before you haven't tested THEIR REMAINS and probably compared those with the pre-Phoenician inhabitants.

[El Palleter]

Well, I'm not sure about that, but probably we will know when they analysed actual Phoenician remains.Of course you're never sure of anything yet you always speculate about everything you don't know.

Why should anyone believe that you're not the biggest internet bullshitter?


I think they will find J1, but ok, that's my opinion based on the facts I know and intuition added to that, proof means testing.Intuition and facts are two very different things. Can't you get that much?

[Loki]

Of course you're never sure of anything yet you always speculate about everything you don't know.

Why should anyone believe that you're not the biggest internet bullshitter?

Intuition and facts are two very different things. Can't you get that much?

Agrippa is always courteous and well-mannered, even to his harshest critics.

You can disagree with him, but there is no need to insult him. He is a respectable person.

[Agrippa]

Of course you're never sure of anything yet you always speculate about everything you don't know.

I'm sure of many things. But in others nobody knows it FOR SURE but every reasonable individual can come to reasonable conclusions based on what's already known.

If you have a better argument, rather than attacking me personally, you are welcomed.


Intuition and facts are two very different things. Can't you get that much?

Sure. But here we discuss only about one thing: Right or wrong.

Prove me wrong, because what we know so far speaks for them having J1 in their male line.

Can you quote me any scientist stating otherwise? Or what arguments do you have for proving the opposite? By facts or logical conclusions.

[Transhumanist]

Prove me wrong, because what we know so far speaks for them having J1 in their male line.

Can you quote me any scientist stating otherwise? Or what arguments do you have for proving the opposite? By facts or logical conclusions.

J1* and J1c3 have been present in the Near East for thousands of years. No sane academic would suggest otherwise. Unless the origins of the Phoenicians were outside the Near East, and they were an endogamous group during their existence in the Near East, the onus is not on you, Agrippa, to prove your case. You are correct. It is on the other gentleman.

[El Palleter]

Agrippa is always courteous and well-mannered, even to his harshest critics.And that means... he's off boundanries to criticism?

I wonder where I've been ill-mannered or harsh

Of course you're never sure of anything yet you always speculate about everything you don't know.

Why should anyone believe that you're not the biggest internet bullshitter?

Intuition and facts are two very different things. Can't you get that much?Whenever alleged intuition is presented as "facts" (or nearby) people know that they're dealing with...alright...you give it a more pc name for it


You can disagree with him, but there is no need to insult him. He is a respectable person.Of course. But I'd still appreciate if you could give me your (clearly 'own') definition of respectability. I'd like to contrast it with the one in the dictionary.


I'm sure of many things.And for that I give you the credit that I'd give to millions who, like you, believe that they are sure about many things.


But in others xnobody knows it FOR SURE but every reasonable individual can come to reasonable conclusions based on what's already known.There is nothing reasonable about speculating 24/7 and pretending that one's coming to a conclusion, while disregarding the lack of evidence.


If you have a better argument, rather than attacking me personally, you are welcomed.My better argument is that, while there is no factual evidence, your argument should be considered together with a psycho-analysis of your curricula.


Sure. But here we discuss only about one thing: Right or wrong.Since when speculation creates an absolutely certain dilema?


Prove me wrong, because what we know so far speaks for them having J1 in their male line.I'm not the one who was speculating. You are the one who should prove yourself right.

As far as I know there's been no testing on ancient phoenicians that could lead to such a allegedly conclusive argument. There's been however on Lebanese who are a population partly descended from them, and partly from Arab invaders.


Can you quote me any scientist stating otherwise?Can you quote one confirming your speculations?


Or what arguments do you have for proving the opposite? By facts or logical conclusions.What exactly precludes you from seeing that it's you (not me) who established a speculative relationship that'd need to be proved? (at the risk of being dismissed as bullshit)

[Loki]

And that means... he's off boundanries to criticism?


Not at all. :) Go right ahead. ;) You won't be the first. :P

[Agrippa]

And that means... he's off boundanries to criticism?

Don't play the innocent victim or something like that.

You stated that ancient Phoenicians had no J1 in their male line, with no proof, nor any reasonable argument.

While I said, everything we know, and I mentioned various arguments, speaks for them having it, but the FINAL PROOF is in their bones.

That's all I said, pretty reasonable I guess and your answer was:

Of course you're never sure of anything yet you always speculate about everything you don't know.

Why should anyone believe that you're not the biggest internet bullshitter?



That's just lowest level...


I wonder where I've been ill-mannered or harsh
Whenever alleged intuition is presented as "facts" (or nearby) people know that they're dealing with...alright...you give it a more pc name for it

Inuition or conclusions based on known facts, recombined to a reasonable approach to what's most likely, but not proven fact BY NOW.

Today, many scientists are just to weak and afraid of speculating, so they talk about meaningless numbers more often than about valuable theories.

Obviously, if you want to solve real mysteries, you have to be more risk taking at times, which doesn't mean "unscientific" or "false" in the sense of fantasies, if your conclusions are just the logical result of what's already known, with a factor of uncertainty where facts are lacking right now.

And you yourself said:

It's highly unlikely that ancient Phoenicians would have had J1 other than as admixture.

Modern Lebanese have it by way of the Arab conquest.

That's against the scientific consensus now, because J1 was present in various Semitic groups it seems and also in some Caucasian people which had no significant Semitic influences at all, yet alone Arab ones. Dienekes conclusion based on a real study:


So, it is clear that part of haplogroup J1 was prevalent in ancient Semitic groups, another, disjoint part in ancient Dagestani groups.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

I was just honest about the fact, that my approach is right now the most likely, but not yet fully proven, because the final proof is in the bones...

You on the other hand stated something as a fact, without the scientific honesty of adding that this is your OPINION ONLY and not even SUPPORTED by scientific studies and facts, yet alone proven.

And YOU dare to say I'm "bullshitting"? How dishonest or delusional is that?

The rest of what you wrote is just provocative in this context.

[El Palleter]

Don't play the innocent victim or something like that.I'd never play the innocent victim. That's what you and your fellow Germans do whenever you deny the millions of deaths caused out of your lunacy, and whine how badly the victors dealt with you lot. I wouldn't reproduce that character because I loath it. It makes me sick.


You stated that ancient Phoenicians had no J1 in their male line, with no proof, nor any reasonable argument.This:

"It's highly unlikely that ancient Phoenicians would have had J1 other than as admixture.

Modern Lebanese have it by way of the Arab conquest."
DOES NOT say that ancient Phoenicians had no J1 in their male line. What it does say is that they probably had it, likely, as admixture.

It's also not even a statement since it only expresses likelihood.

I can only find two ways to explain your accusation: either you suffer from a disfunction whereby reading and comprehending are dissociated, or you are lying as an argument (that would unsurprisingly put you in line with the genocide deniers and others of the nazi gang).

But it wouldn't be fair to dismiss you so quickly and, if you have an alternative explanation, one that's consistent, I'm all willing to give it due consideration.


That's just lowest level...No. It's a reality check.


Inuition or conclusions based on known facts, recombined to a reasonable approach to what's most likely, but not proven fact BY NOW.Facts in this context would be a fair sample of ancient Phoenicians DNA. Since you can't present that, it is clear to me that you are deceiving when you say that your conclusions are based on facts.

A definition of 'intuition' is "the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference".

Granting you that much would border the realms of sects.


Today, many scientists are just to weak and afraid of speculatingand there are enough enlightened gurus on the internet to tell us about it, with the strength and courage that requires to be behind a screen on an anonymous connection


so they talk about meaningless numbers more often than about valuable theories.but fortunately we have the likes of you to tell us what we must deem as meaningless numbers and what valuable theories


Obviously, if you want to solve real mysteries, you have to be more risk taking at times, which doesn't mean "unscientific" or "false" in the sense of fantasies, if your conclusions are just the logical result of what's already known, with a factor of uncertainty where facts are lacking right now.I think that this would make sense...after consulting a manual of psychiatry.


That's against the scientific consensus now, because J1 was present in various Semitic groups it seems and also in some Caucasian people which had no significant Semitic influences at all, yet alone Arab ones.What I said is that the likelihood of J1 in ancient Phoenicians is, never mind you, from admixture. Since the likelihood is that ancient Phoenicians were predominantly J2.

It's neither pro- nor un-scientific. It's all about likelihoods since it's all one can say without speculating a bit too much.


Dienekes conclusion based on a real study:He's making inferences on one group based on a different group. Hardly evidence, just speculations.


I was just honest about the fact, that my approach is right now the most likely, but not yet fully proven, because the final proof is in the bones...

You on the other hand stated something as a fact, without the scientific honesty of adding that this is your OPINION ONLY and not even SUPPORTED by scientific studies and facts, yet alone proven.I'm the one who spoke of likelihood since the start. It's only now that you are using the word. Who's being dishonest?


And YOU dare to say I'm "bullshitting"?What else could be said when you've just been dismissing scientists as 'weak' and 'afraid' (thus cowards), and their data as 'meaningless'.

While pretending to correct their alleged deficiencies.

Such kind of mentality is often found in sects, and it belongs in the lunatic asylum.


How dishonest or delusional is that?An individual 100% obsessed with measuring bones as a means to infer such things as character, would be the last individual on earth to have the right to speak of dishonesty and of delusional minds.


The rest of what you wrote is just provocative in this context.It's much better than bullshitting

[Agrippa]

DOES NOT say that ancient Phoenicians had no J1 in their male line. What it does say is that they probably had it, likely, as admixture.

First of all, when I said that J1 was present in Phoenicians, most likely but not necessarily exclusively due to their Semitic heritage, you began to rabble around, now that was YOUR reaction, not mine.


He's making inferences on one group based on a different group. Hardly evidence, just speculations.

More reasonable ones than you did, though, based on evidence, with the rest being logical conclusions with the final proof lying in the bones, simple as that.


What I said is that the likelihood of J1 in ancient Phoenicians is, never mind you, from admixture. Since the likelihood is that ancient Phoenicians were predominantly J2.

Well, now we have a serious problem with your point of view, because I know that the locals in the region were more often J2 in pre-Semitic times and that many of them seem to have been "Semiticised" ethnolinguistically over time.

Now if you talk about the ancient Phoenicians having J1 just as some kind of "unimportant admixture", well, that makes little sense, because those which had a higher frequency of J1 were most likely the original Semitic people which brought the language and ethnicity to the coastline! They were crucial for the ethnogenesis!

That is like saying in ancient Magyars the Mongoloid markers were just "admixture", while it was the other way around, since those part-Mongoloid elements brought the language and ethnicity to Pannonia.

Even if Phoenicians were later predominantely J2 or anything else, primarily because of their pre-Semitic heritage, it would be strange to call this constitutive element "admixture" - unless you mean the local population as such, but that's strange for the ethnolinguistic group of the Phoenicians which:


Phoenician was a language originally spoken in the coastal (Mediterranean) region then called "Canaan" in Phoenician, Arabic, Hebrew, and Aramaic, "Phoenicia" in Greek and Latin, and "Pūt" in Ancient Egyptian. Phoenician is a Semitic language of the Canaanite subgroup; its closest living relative is Hebrew, to which it is very similar; then Aramaic, then Arabic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_language

It is pretty obvious that the pre-Semitic inhabitants in many areas of f.e. Lebanon prevailed biologically - you just need racial typology for coming to that conclusion.

Anyway, without that "admixture" there wouldn't have been, most likely, Phoenicians.


What else could be said when you've just been dismissing scientists as 'weak' and 'afraid' (thus cowards), and their data as 'meaningless'.

While pretending to correct their alleged deficiencies.

Such kind of mentality is often found in sects, and it belongs in the lunatic asylum.



You don't understand, I know the scientists in question and how they approach such things.

Just look at how some of them, which told the truth or made reasonable speculations outside of the "politically correct" mainstream were treated!
They were ruined, just because making a scientifically correct and honest analysis!

If a "scientist" says "all human races have the same intellectual capabilities and there are no IQ differences based on genetics", they get away with it, even though that is truly BULLSHIT, while if you tell the truth and say that f.e. Congolese Negrids are on average less intelligent than Eurasians, and that's also because of their genetic profile, you can get into trouble already!

And anthropometry is science, with the typological concept being largely let down by the same people which can't or don't want to speak the truth any longer.

I had various scientists which told me, after I argued with them about certain facts, bluntly (analogous): "Well, even if that's right, I won't teach it and rather stick to the politically correct approach, because I can't tell that my students today and I don't want to come back 'to the past' which was horrible..."

They are all so highly indoctrinated and afraid, that even those which know the truth prefer to spread other theories, because it is closer to what is accepted now or they themselves want, in their Cultural Marxist mind setting. They don't even want to see the truth or really consider other theories, because they think even touching it "is a problem", both for their career and from an "ethical point of view".

Because they don't like the consequences of the truth in this subjects, which would mean to undermine the "all are equal" crap!

So I'm not sitting somewhere and thinking about "the scientists" in a delusional way, I know enough about them and I know enough of them!

Many of them are just not honest about many things, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously, but that's how it is!

[Kenshiro]

I have this y dna but 0 Red Sea, WTF? My mena look almost entire Caucasian-Assyrian

[Miko]

Originary of Arab countries (probably Yemen, 70% of J1)


It comes from the Caucasus (Dagestan, Russia; Lake Van, Armenia). It was the haplogroup of the Kura-Araxes culture.
And from there to Sumer, in today's southern Irak. That was the birthplace of Abraham and Abrahamism.