Spanish or Moroccan?

[Deneb]

http://thumbs.subefotos.com/0786230b80733a10bd1a0076eebe9344o.jpg (https://subefotos.com/ver/?0786230b80733a10bd1a0076eebe9344o.jpg)

http://thumbs.subefotos.com/dd9023fd8d8cfa6f271fe00189b7f629o.jpg (https://subefotos.com/ver/?dd9023fd8d8cfa6f271fe00189b7f629o.jpg)

[leonj]

Spanish?

[Mimi]

Canarian

[Sp_loa]

looks latina to me.

[JMack]

Spanish.

[Latinus]

Spanish.

[Rouxinol]

When I was in college there were these Erasmus exchange program Spanish girls from Canarias that looked like that woman so I'll go with Spanish.

[alnortedelsur]

A serious comparison would be: "Spanish or French" or "Spanish or Italian"

[Blondie]

She is spanish. You picked this exotic pic to prove that spanish and morrocans looks same (which is not true) right? :)

[alnortedelsur]

She is spanish. You picked this exotic pic to prove that spanish and morrocans looks same (which is not true) right? :)

A typical old trick to darkwash Spaniards.

[Latinus]

I don't think OP posted this thread to darkwash Spaniards, just to play a simple game. You guys need to relax, not everyone has an agenda.
These typs of threads always focuse on ambiguos looking people. I think she is Spanish, but she wouldn't look out of place in a belly dance.

[Deneb]

She is spanish. You picked this exotic pic to prove that spanish and morrocans looks same (which is not true) right? :)

Just asking. I think she passes better in Morocco than France. Spain is in the middle. I dont understand this fuss.
Yeah, she is Spanish. Nuria Bermúdez.

[alnortedelsur]

I don't think OP posted this thread to darkwash Spaniards, just to play a simple game. You guys need to relax, not everyone has an agenda.
These typs of threads always focuse on ambiguos looking people. I think she is Spanish, but she wouldn't look out of place in a belly dance.

Perhaps not in this case.

I just pointed out that that comparing Spaniards with French or Italians are much more serious comparisons than comparing them with Moroccans, since they are much closer to French and Italians, and even to other Europeans, than to Moroccans.

If there is some overlap with Moroccans, like in the case of this woman (if she is Spanish) this overlap is only limited to the most exotic Spaniards and the lightest (and with very little to non SSA mixture) Moroccans. If we compare an average Spaniard with an average Moroccan, the difference would be abysmal.

[Latinus]

Perhaps not in this case.

I just pointed out that that comparing Spaniards with French or Italians are much more serious comparisons than comparing them with Moroccans, since they are much closer to French and Italians, and even to other Europeans, than to Moroccans.

If there is some overlap with Moroccans, like in the case of this woman (if she is Spanish) this overlap is only reduced to the most exotic Spaniards and the lightest (and with very little to non SSA mixture) Moroccans. If we compare an average Spaniard with an average Moroccan, the difference would be abysmal.

Of course, the overlap of Spaniard and Italians/French is 1000x times bigger than with Morocco, but in this particular thread the question makes sense, the woman looks borderline/ambiguos. He didn't post a woman that would look impossible in Spain, the opposite, she fits the spectrum, even if darker than average.

[Deneb]

Of course, the overlap of Spaniard and Italians/French is 1000x times bigger than with Morocco, but in this particular thread the question makes sense, the woman looks borderline/ambiguos. He didn't post a woman that would look impossible in Spain, the opposite, she fits the spectrum, even if darker than average.

1000 times bigger with Italy, yes. With France, no way.

[Latinus]

1000 times bigger with Italy, yes. With France, no way.

Spain has much more overlap with France than Morocco.

[alnortedelsur]

1000 times bigger with Italy, yes. With France, no way.

With France too. Lots of Spaniards would reasonably pass unnoticed in France.

[Deneb]

With France too. Lots of Spaniards would reasonably pass unnoticed in France.

Not as a group.

[alnortedelsur]

Not as a group.

Individually, YES

[Deneb]

Spain has much more overlap with France than Morocco.

But not 1000x times. A group of Spaniards don't pass in France.

[Deneb]

Individually, YES

I agree with that, but there are exceptions, as this woman or Dani Ceballos.

[Latinus]

But not 1000x times. A group of Spaniards don't pass in France.

Don't take everything literally. 1000x times means just that the overlap with France is much bigger than with Morocco. I don't care about groups. The thing is: Spaniards fit better in France than in Morocco.
If all Moroccans looked like those atypical types that pass in Spain with no problem, I wouldn't be so sure which country Spain overlap the most: France or Morocco.

[Deneb]

Don't take everything literally. 1000x times means just that the overlap with France is much bigger than with Morocco. I don't care about groups. The thing is: Spaniards fit better in France than in Morocco.
If all Moroccans looked like those atypical types that pass in Spain with no problem, I wouldn't be so sure which country Spain overlap the most: France or Morocco.


I agree untill certain degree. IDK if you have been to France... French are more northern shifted than Iberians/Italians. Some Spaniards can be swarthy if you compare them with the French average.

[Cristiano viejo]

Another thread of the homosexual Italian Artabro to darkwash Spaniards...

[HechtFans]

It seems Moroccan but it is obvious that it is Spanish ...

[Morena]

I think her face looks distinctly Spanish.

[Deneb]

Another thread of the homosexual Italian Artabro to darkwash Spaniards...

Said by the liar and coward number one on TA, the notorious low IQ aka Gypsy Viejo.

[dududud]

Beurette.

[Dna8]

Spaniard.

[Deneb]

It seems Moroccan but it is obvious that it is Spanish ...

Yeah, she seems, but She is Spanish.

[Dna8]

Nice thread (well chosen subject aesthetic)

[Dna8]

In this instance, I guessed right.

[Antinoo]

Spanish

[Dna8]

Spanish

Welcome to TA, by the way.

[Mimi]

Its just obvious she isnt a muslim lady on the pic, high self esteem
Is visible

[Cristiano viejo]

Said by the liar and coward number one on TA, the notorious low IQ aka Gypsy Viejo.

Why am I a liar and a coward, let alone a Gypsy and even viejo, homosexual Italian boy? :eyes

[Papastratosels26]

Morrocan

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Spanish

[Deneb]

Why am I a liar and a coward, let alone a Gypsy and even viejo, homosexual Italian boy? :eyes

Get a brain, coward and liar Castilian Gypsy :icon_lol:

[Cristiano viejo]

Get a brain, coward and liar Castilian Gypsy :icon_lol:

Thanks conffirming my post not giving an answer (Why am I a liar and a coward, let alone a Gypsy and even viejo, homosexual Italian boy?).

[Deneb]

Thanks conffirming my post not giving an answer (Why am I a liar and a coward, let alone a Gypsy and even viejo, homosexual Italian boy?).

No need of explanations, coward and liar number one on TA, Castilian Gypsy Viejo. You know you are.

[Cristiano viejo]

No need of explanations, coward and liar number one on TA, Castilian Gypsy Viejo. You know you are.

I know I am a liar (prove I have lied), coward (prove I am one) or Gypsy (lol this is hilarious)... in the other hand all of us know you are a faggot and a pederast.

[Deneb]

I know I am a liar (prove I have lied), coward (prove I am one) or Gypsy (lol this is hilarious)... in the other hand all of us know you are a faggot and a pederast.

Freedom of speech, say the coward and liar nº1 on TA, Gypsy Viejo. Hahaha.

[Cristiano viejo]

Freedom of speech, say the coward and liar nº1 on TA, Gypsy Viejo. Hahaha.

Not my fault that you depraved beings dislike freedom speech, brown "Galician" fag :laugh:

[Deneb]

Not my fault that you depraved beings dislike freedom speech, brown "Galician" fag :laugh:

Better Galician than CAstilian Gypsy, coward and liar nº1.

[Cristiano viejo]

Better Galician than CAstilian Gypsy, coward and liar nº1.
You are not Galician, depraved being. You wish :thumb001:

[Deneb]

You are not Galician, depraved being. You wish :thumb001:

Said by the liar and coward number one on TA, aka Castilian Gypsy Viejo.

[Cristiano viejo]

Said by the liar and coward number one on TA, aka Castilian Gypsy Viejo.

Gays lack imagination and creativity. You are the alive proof, brown depraved being.

[Deneb]

Gays lack imagination and creativity. You are the alive proof, brown depraved being.

Sure, low IQ Castilian Gypsy. Pathological liar, and coward number one on TA.

[Cristiano viejo]

Sure, low IQ Castilian Gypsy. Pathological liar, and coward number one on TA.

I feel pity for your parents when they discovered you are a sick gay. With total seriousness.

[Deneb]

I feel pity for your parents when they discovered you are a sick gay. With total seriousness.

Liar number one, Castilian Gypsy.

[Cristiano viejo]

Liar number one, Castilian Gypsy.

Do you have AIDS, depraved? be honest.

[Deneb]

Do you have AIDS, depraved? be honest.

Get a brain, LIAR AND COWARD CASTILIAN GYPSY.

[Finnish Swede]

Casablanca?

https://imgc.allpostersimages.com/img/print/plakater/casablanca-1942_a-G-6255102-9201947.jpg


Swedish actor Ingrid Bergman looked European on that film....

[Cristiano viejo]

Get a brain, LIAR AND COWARD CASTILIAN GYPSY.

Yes, I knew... you do :rolleyes:

[Ruggery]

Not as a group.

In the south yes, in the center, north and east of France I agree.

[Deneb]

In the south yes, in the center, north and east of France I agree.

I've been to Southern France (Toulouse), Southern French are more northern shifted than northern Spaniards. The difference is not striking, but exists. You can see it in a big group of people.

[Cristiano viejo]

I've been to Southern France (Toulouse), Southern French are more northern shifted than northern Spaniards. The difference is not striking, but exists. You can see it in a big group of people.
No, not true.

[Ruggery]

I've been to Southern France (Toulouse), Southern French are more northern shifted than northern Spaniards. The difference is not striking, but exists. You can see it in a big group of people.

People of Toulouse They do not look so different from the Spaniards :icon_ask:
http://de.tprf.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Audience-2-1080x675.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

People of Toulouse They do not look so different from the Spaniards :icon_ask:

For sure we look infinitely closer to them than to Moroccans, as brown OP claims 24/7.

[Deneb]

For sure we look infinitely closer to them than to Moroccans, as brown OP claims 24/7.

Said by the LIAR number one on TA, Castilian Gypsy Viejo.

[Cristiano viejo]

Said by the LIAR number one on TA, Castilian Gypsy Viejo.

Sorry if truth hurts you, brown Italian boy.

[Deneb]

Sorry if truth hurts you, brown Italian boy.

Don't hurt me, LIAR, better to be an Italian than a Castilian Gypsy.

[Cristiano viejo]

Don't hurt me, LIAR, better to be an Italian than a Castilian Gypsy.

But I am not Gypsy while you are brown, gay and Italian :noidea:

[Deneb]

But I am not Gypsy while you are brown, gay and Italian :noidea:

Said by the coward and LIAR number one on TA, the notorious low IQ aka Gypsy Viejo. Hahaha.

[Cristiano viejo]

Said by the coward and LIAR number one on TA, notorious low IQ aka Gypsy Viejo. Hahaha.

I hope your parents did not get a heart attack when you said them you are homosexual. Tell me, happened? :eyes

[Deneb]

I hope your parents did not get a heart attack when you said them you are homosexual. Tell me, happened? :eyes

The LIAR number one on TA talking about Freedom Speech, hahaha. This Coward who hides behind a screen.

[Cristiano viejo]

The LIAR number one on TA talking about Freedom Speech, hahaha. This Coward who hides behind a screen.

You are the liar inventing you are Galician, brown Italian gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

[Deneb]

You are the liar inventing you are Galician, brown Italian gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Said by the coward and LIAR number one on TA, the notorious low IQ aka Castilian Gypsy Viejo.

He talks about Freedom Speech, but he is against the Catalan Right to decide its independence, hahaha hypocrital liar.

[Cristiano viejo]

Said by the coward and LIAR number one on TA, the notorious low IQ aka Castilian Gypsy Viejo.

He talks about Freedom Speech, but he is against the Catalan Rights, hahaha hypocrital liar.

It is you who is against the Catalan rights since the majority of them are against independence, brown gay. Live with it and with my rights to dislike homosexual sick people :thumb001:

[Deneb]

It is you who is against the Catalan rights since the majority of them are against independence, brown gay. Live with it and with my rights to dislike homosexual sick people :thumb001:

They have a majority in the Catalan Parlament, LIAR.
Ethnic Catalans don't want anything with the Castilian Gypsies, LOW IQ Gypsy Viejo.

[Cristiano viejo]

They have a majority in the Catalan Parlament, LIAR.

And Ciudadanos won the Catalan elections, LIAR.

[Deneb]

Even so they are a minority, pathological liar.

Get a brain, coward CASTLIAN GYPSY.

[Cristiano viejo]

Even so they are a minority, pathological liar.

Get a brain, coward CASTLIAN GYPSY.
No, they are not, LIAR, who do you pretend to deceive?
Even separatists leaders admit they are a minority

ERC y PDeCAT admiten que no existe una "mayoría de catalanes" que quiera la independencia
http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20171114/erc-pdecat-admiten-no-existe-mayoria-catalanes-quiera-independencia/1635180.shtml

LIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
GAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
DEPRAVEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Deneb]

No, they are not, LIAR, who do you pretend to deceive?
Even separatists leaders admit they are a minority

ERC y PDeCAT admiten que no existe una "mayoría de catalanes" que quiera la independencia
http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20171114/erc-pdecat-admiten-no-existe-mayoria-catalanes-quiera-independencia/1635180.shtml

LIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
GAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
DEPRAVEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Said by the liar and coward number one on TA, the notorious low IQ aka Castilian Gypsy Viejo :rotfl::rotfl:

Learn something, retarded Castilian: Freedom of Speech = Independence Referendum in Catalonia.

[IrisSelene]

No, they are not, LIAR, who do you pretend to deceive?
Even separatists leaders admit they are a minority

ERC y PDeCAT admiten que no existe una "mayoría de catalanes" que quiera la independencia
http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20171114/erc-pdecat-admiten-no-existe-mayoria-catalanes-quiera-independencia/1635180.shtml

LIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
GAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
DEPRAVEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

You're so gonna get banned soon.

[Morena]

You're so gonna get banned soon.

I don't know. He's been here for years and years. And he's never changed.

[Cristiano viejo]

Said by the liar and coward number one on TA
It is good to see you dont have more arguments :laugh:


You're so gonna get banned soon.

You are so gonna get expelled of Spain soon.

[IrisSelene]

It is good to see you dont have more arguments :laugh:



You are so gonna get expelled of Spain soon.

You're just fighting everyone on this forum. You need to fuckin chill.

[Morena]

You're just fighting everyone on this forum. You need to fuckin chill.

I've tried telling him the same. Just ignore him.

[Deneb]

It is good to see you dont have more arguments :laugh:



You are so gonna get expelled of Spain soon.

Silly words from a notorious liar and coward Castilian Gypsy.

[Cristiano viejo]

You're just fighting everyone on this forum. You need to fuckin chill.
Not my fault if brown gays attack me :noidea:


Silly words from a notorious liar and coward Castilian Gypsy.

Yet you are not able to say where I have lied and why I am a coward, GAY :thumb001:

[alnortedelsur]

WTF, even "Spanish or Russian" would make more sense.

[Deneb]

Not my fault if brown gays attack me :noidea:



Yet you are not able to say where I have lied and why I am a coward, GAY :thumb001:

Said by the liar number one on TA, the Castilian fucking Cunt Vieja.

[Cristiano viejo]

Said by the liar number one on TA, the Castilian fucking Cunt Vieja.

You become boring, little homosexual. Your lack of arguments is worrying. As a good homosexual you only know to use insults.
I think I could sent you to my ignore list :cool:

[Deneb]

You become boring, little homosexual. Your lack of arguments is worrying. As a good homosexual you only know to use insults.
I think I could sent you to my ignore list :cool:

Yes, you'll do, fucking cunt. As the coward you are.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, you'll do, fucking cunt. As the coward you are.

Ignored :D

[Deneb]

Ignored :D

Hasta la vista, retarded cunt.

[Catarinense1998]

Spanish

[IrisSelene]

WTF, even "Spanish or Russian" would make more sense.

lol no, spaniards look nothing like russians.

[alnortedelsur]

lol no, spaniards look nothing like russians.

Let alone like Moroccans.

[Nassbean]

Let alone like Moroccans.

In this case i disagree there is more overlap between spain and morocco than between spain and russia

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In this case i disagree there is more overlap between spain and morocco than between spain and russia

There's no overlap between Spaniards and Moroccans unless we cherrypick a few individuals but we could also do the same and choose a few cherrypicked Spaniards that could pass in Russia.

[Nassbean]

There's no overlap between Spaniards and Moroccans unless we cherrypick a few individuals but we could also do the same and choose a few cherrypicked Spaniards that could pass in Russia.

I talk based on my experience ( I also went there ) in my own family there are individuals who can pass there easily it's not that rare but i've rarely seen a spaniard who can pass in russia and vice versa

[alnortedelsur]

I talk based on my experience ( I also went there ) in my own family there are individuals who can pass there easily it's not that rare but i've rarely seen a spaniard who can pass in russia and vice versa

Russians with soft/fleshy features and not too pale, who could reasonably go unnoticed in a crowd of Spaniards are not rare at all, and there are also good numbers of Spaniards like Natalia Sanchez, who would reasonably go unnoticed in a crowd of Russians.

I myself am not full Spanish, but mostly Spanish descent, and have been mistaken for Russian several times IRL. And several forum members have told me that I look pseudo Slavic.

Stop relying too much on stereotypes.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I talk based on my experience ( I also went there ) in my own family there are individuals who can pass there easily it's not that rare but i've rarely seen a spaniard who can pass in russia and vice versa


Your family must be filled with outliers then. I rarely see Moroccans that are able to pass in Spain on YouTube videos of crowds or street interviews, to sustain the argument that there are individuals that overlap I have to extensively search or look for cherrypicked single individuals that are never representative of the majority.

[Samnium]

Russians with soft/fleshy features and not too pale, who could reasonably go unnoticed in a crowd of Spaniards are not rare at all, and there are also good numbers of Spaniards like Natalia Sanchez, who would reasonably go unnoticed in a crowd of Russians.

I myself am not full Spanish, but mostly Spanish descent, and have been mistaken for Russian several times IRL. And several forum members have told me that I look pseudo Slavic.

Stop relying too much on stereotypes.

To some extent there is some overlap with France too.

And honestly for Moroccans they can pass "exceptionally" in Iberia. Sincerely I've seen a lot of moroccans in my life (and from all the regions almost) when they look med they have still NA features that would make them unpassable

I'm not even talking about SSA features that look completely off, like very pronounced prognathism or black nose. And sincerely it seems that a fair number of NA's share these features, atleast one or two.

[Tooting Carmen]

To some extent there is some overlap with France too.

And honestly for Moroccans they can pass "exceptionally" in Iberia. Sincerely I've seen a lot of moroccans in my life (and from all the regions almost) when they look med they have still NA features that would make them unpassable.

Yes, Rachida Dati and Zinedine Zidane are very much within the range for Southern Europe pigmentation-wise, but still their facial features look different.

[alnortedelsur]

To some extent there is some overlap with France too.

And honestly for Moroccans they can pass "exceptionally" in Iberia. Sincerely I've seen a lot of moroccans in my life (and from all the regions almost) when they look med they have still NA features that would make them unpassable.

Of course. There is even much more overlap between Spaniards and French than between Spaniards and Russians.

I just wanted to point out that ethnic Spaniards who could reasonably pass in Russia and viceversa are not that rare as some people make it out to be.

[Samnium]

Of course. There is even much more overlap between Spaniards and French than between Spaniards and Russians.

I just wanted to point out that ethnic Spaniards who could reasonably pass in Russia and viceversa are not that rare as some people make it out to be.

I don't know honestly, Baltid, East Nordid and other East types are completely alien to Spain. There's maybe some similarities between "East Euro" med types I guess.

[Tooting Carmen]

To some extent there is some overlap with France too.

And honestly for Moroccans they can pass "exceptionally" in Iberia. Sincerely I've seen a lot of moroccans in my life (and from all the regions almost) when they look med they have still NA features that would make them unpassable.

Yes, Rachida Dati and Zinedine Zidane are very much within the range for Southern Europe pigmentation-wise, but still their facial features look different.

[Nassbean]

Russians with soft/fleshy features and not too pale, who could reasonably go unnoticed in a crowd of Spaniards are not rare at all, and there are also good numbers of Spaniards like Natalia Sanchez, who would reasonably go unnoticed in a crowd of Russians.

I myself am not full Spanish, but mostly Spanish descent, and have been mistaken for Russian several times IRL. And several forum members have told me that I look pseudo Slavic.

Stop relying too much on stereotypes.

What I saw was the opposite : people from maghreb being unnoticed in spanish crowds (except extreme cases with clear ssa features) and when they saw some blondes germans or slavs they were saying "hello" not holà like with me for example ( and i'm far from being an outlier in morocco). People IRL don't analyze like us here for them you look somewhat mediterranean and that's it but that's not the point and i've never denied some spaniards who can look pseudo-slavic but they are clearly not the norm they are outliers.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

And honestly for Moroccans they can pass "exceptionally" in Iberia.

I am still eager to see someone proving that Moroccans as a group can pass in Iberia. You would have to cherrypick the most European looking Berbers to sustain that and to be quite honest, they seem to fit better in Southeastern Europe rather than the Iberian Peninsula because for the most part they tend to show dinaromorfic traits. Someone like Zinedine Zidane would probably pass more convincingly as an Yugoslav rather than Iberian.

A few random interviews with Moroccans:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxGXgj96HjM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbn6RGlYiZo

[Nassbean]

Your family must be filled with outliers then. I rarely see Moroccans that are able to pass in Spain on YouTube videos of crowds or street interviews, to sustain the argument that there are individuals that overlap I have to extensively search or look for cherrypicked single individuals that are never representative of the majority.

Sure now even my own family is not typical and filled with outliers no sorry mate you're just expressing your stereotypes and thus you're biased (also i doubt you went to north morocco).

[alnortedelsur]

What I saw was the opposite : people from maghreb being unnoticed in spanish crowds (except extreme cases with clear ssa features) and when they saw some blondes germans or slavs they were saying "hello" not holà like with me for example ( and i'm far from being an outlier in morocco). People IRL don't analyze like us here for them you look somewhat mediterranean and that's it but that's not the point and i've never denied some spaniards who can look pseudo-slavic but they are clearly not the norm they are outliers.

Pseudo Moroccan looking Spaniards are much more outliers than pseudo-Russian looking Spanish.

Natalia Sanchez is much more common for a Spaniard than pseudo-Moroccan looking Spaniards.

[Samnium]

I am still eager to see someone proving that Moroccans as a group can pass in Iberia. You would have to cherrypick the most European looking Berbers to sustain that and to be quite honest, they seem to fit better in Southeastern Europe rather than the Iberian Peninsula because for the most part they tend to show dinaromorfic traits. Someone like Zinedine Zidane would probably pass more convincingly as an Yugoslav rather than Iberian.

A few random interviews with Moroccans:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxGXgj96HjM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbn6RGlYiZo

One hint : NA's are usually a lot more robust than southern euros cranio-facially. They also lack elongated face types like Atlanto-Med.

I agree that the overlap is exceptionnal.

[Nassbean]

I am still eager to see someone proving that Moroccans as a group can pass in Iberia. You would have to cherrypick the most European looking Berbers to sustain that and to be quite honest, they seem to fit better in Southeastern Europe rather than the Iberian Peninsula because for the most part they tend to show dinaromorfic traits. Someone like Zinedine Zidane would probably pass more convincingly as an Yugoslav rather than Iberian.

A few random interviews with Moroccans:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxGXgj96HjM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbn6RGlYiZo

Morocco is phenotypically diverse country and has a long history linked with the trans-saharan slave trade most of the people in these videos descend from black slaves ( also these videos were made in casablanca which is known for having a big haratin community). There is a bigger overlap between north moroccans/moroccans without lots of ssa with spain than spain with russia it's obvious and common sense. I know it bothers you but that's how truth can taste sometimes.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Sure now even my own family is not typical and filled with outliers no sorry mate you're just expressing your stereotypes and thus you're biased (also i doubt you went to north morocco).

Yeah, I forgot we always have to pretend or assume that whatever minority from the north or Morocco or Algeria that carries the lightest individuals is representative of the majority. I am not expressing stereotypes, I am just being coherent with the reality.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Morocco is phenotypically diverse country and has a long history linked with the trans-saharan slave trade most of the people in these videos descend from black slaves ( also these videos were made in casablanca which is known for having a big haratin community). There is a bigger overlap between north moroccans/moroccans without lots of ssa with spain than spain with russia it's obvious and common sense. I know it bothers you but that's how truth can taste sometimes.

Yeah, like I said on the previous post: there's always a problem with whatever video or crowd that is posted in here that shows Moroccans...it is never from the right city or it never shows the right people...but I am the one filled with stereotypes and biased.

[Tooting Carmen]

Pseudo Moroccan looking Spaniards are much more outliers than pseudo-Russian looking Spanish.

Natalia Sanchez is much more common for a Spaniard than pseudo-Moroccan looking Spaniards.

Personally, I don't think Spaniards overlap with either Russians or Moroccans very much. That said, I am sure many of the darker Spanish types like Alvaro Arbeloa and Cesc Fabregas pass better among the latter than the former.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Sure now even my own family is not typical and filled with outliers no sorry mate you're just expressing your stereotypes and thus you're biased (also i doubt you went to north morocco).

Assuming that your family does pass as typical average Spaniards would you be able to say then that the average Moroccan family passes convincingly in Spain? If not then how is your family not an outlier? Your rhetoric is poor.

[Samnium]

Assuming that your family does pass as typical average Spaniards would you be able to say then that the average Moroccan family passes convincingly in Spain? If not then how is your family not an outlier? Your rhetoric is poor.

I have (or I had ancestors) people in my italian family that could pass either in France or in Northern Italy hands down (and other countries that aren't S.Euros) but I will never claim that's the average looking of a southern italian family. It makes no sense. They may be outliers phenotypically and maybe genetically (they aren't tested) so taking them as an average...

[Nassbean]

Pseudo Moroccan looking Spaniards are much more outliers than pseudo-Russian looking Spanish.

Natalia Sanchez is much more common for a Spaniard than pseudo-Moroccan looking Spaniards.

that's false when i went there easily 20-30% of spaniards could have been mistaken for moroccans and in my region easily 50% can pass in spain

[Nassbean]

Yeah, I forgot we always have to pretend or assume that whatever minority from the north or Morocco or Algeria that carries the lightest individuals is representative of the majority. I am not expressing stereotypes, I am just being coherent with the reality.

Even by taking the average moroccan he could better pass in spain than the average russian that's for sure

[Tooting Carmen]

Even by taking the average moroccan he could better pass in spain than the average russian that's for sure

Tbh neither pass especially well on average.

[Kamal900]

I have (or I had ancestors) people in my italian family that could pass either in France or in Northern Italy hands down (and other countries that aren't S.Euros) but I will never claim that's the average looking of a southern italian family. It makes no sense. They may be outliers phenotypically and maybe genetically (they aren't tested) so taking them as an average...

Same, though I'm genetically pretty much Levantine with some Egyptian, Bedouin, Berber and West Asian admixtures, lol. By phenotype, I guess me and my family could pass in Southern Italy and the Aegean Greek Islands, but I was certainly was mistaken for the native peoples of Cyprus quite a lot in fact which is why that I can assimilate to their culture and identity if I ever wanted to.

[Nassbean]

Yeah, like I said on the previous post: there's always a problem with whatever video or crowd that is posted in here that shows Moroccans...it is never from the right city or it never shows the right people...but I am the one filled with stereotypes and biased.

I posted easily more than 100 pics about moroccan crowds but yes i'm biased...next time i'll choose videos about spanish gypsies too

[Nassbean]

Assuming that your family does pass as typical average Spaniards would you be able to say then that the average Moroccan family passes convincingly in Spain? If not then how is your family not an outlier? Your rhetoric is poor.

I never said my family can pass as typical I said some members of my family can pass easily there (like my mom for example) my initial point wasn't that the average moroccan family pass better in spain but that there is more overlap between the two countries than between spain and russia ( i'm talking about proportion)

[crunchy]

looks a beautiful moroccan or a dark exotic spanish

[Tooting Carmen]

Are these typical for Algeria and Morocco:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?141026-Classify-seven-female-French-politicians-of-North-African-origin

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280343-Classify-French-MPs-of-North-African-origin

[Nassbean]

Are these typical for Algeria and Morocco:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?141026-Classify-seven-female-French-politicians-of-North-African-origin

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280343-Classify-French-MPs-of-North-African-origin

yes overall but there are some outliers (btw myriam el khomri is half french)

[Tooting Carmen]

yes overall but there are some outliers (btw myriam el khomri is half french)

Well they don't look Iberian (certainly not as a group, at any rate).

[Nassbean]

Well they don't look Iberian (certainly not as a group, at any rate).

Indeed they don't that wasn't the point.

[Samnium]

Same, though I'm genetically pretty much Levantine with some Egyptian, Bedouin, Berber and West Asian admixtures, lol. By phenotype, I guess me and my family could pass in Southern Italy and the Aegean Greek Islands, but I was certainly was mistaken for the native peoples of Cyprus quite a lot in fact which is why that I can assimilate to their culture and identity if I ever wanted to.

Cypriots are pretty much Levantines so you still could, because you're Levantine.

[Kamal900]

Cypriots are pretty much Levantines so you still could, because you're Levantine.

Yeah, but they do have some Greek Mycenaean admixture which is between 25 to 30% while it's around less than 50% in today's Aegean Greek Islanders while the rest is west Asian(mostly from the Levant and the Caucasus).

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Even by taking the average moroccan he could better pass in spain than the average russian that's for sure

Ok, that's...hum...your opinion mate.

I never saw a Moroccan member or North African member for the matter that could pass convincingly in Europe yet. I have seen a Russian member that could pass easily in Spain (BlackHole). Let's stop pretending that every Russian is an Albino Slavo-Mongol or whatever you imagine them to be. Both Russia and Ukraine have a fair amount of Pontid types that pass as default more convincingly in Southern Europe than the average Morrocan. And this is...hum...my opinion mate.


I posted easily more than 100 pics about moroccan crowds but yes i'm biased...next time i'll choose videos about spanish gypsies too

Was the people I posted not Moroccan? It's not my fault you only consider whatever people that fits your criteria or that hails from whatever region you are from as the only Moroccan...


I never said my family can pass as typical I said some members of my family can pass easily there (like my mom for example) my initial point wasn't that the average moroccan family pass better in spain but that there is more overlap between the two countries than between spain and russia ( i'm talking about proportion)

I highly doubt that. None have any good overlap but I am inclined to believe that Europeans in terms of traits will always have more overlap with other Europeans firstly for the most part.

[Nassbean]

Ok, that's...hum...your opinion mate.

I never saw a Moroccan member or North African member for the matter that could pass convincingly in Europe yet. I have seen a Russian member that could pass easily in Spain (BlackHole). Let's stop pretending that every Russian is an Albino Slavo-Mongol or whatever you imagine them to be. Both Russia and Ukraine have a fair amount of Pontid types that pass as default more convincingly in Southern Europe than the average Morrocan. And this is...hum...my opinion mate. Your opinion as you said.




Was the people I posted not Moroccan? It's not my fault you only consider whatever people that fits your criteria or that hails from whatever region you are from as the only Moroccan...

Sure are blacks with spanish nationality spaniards now ? same for gypsies? ...weak argument. You don't know the history of Morocco and it's current demographic state better stay quiet.




I highly doubt that. None have any good overlap but I am inclined to believe that Europeans in terms of traits will always have more overlap with other Europeans firstly for the most part.

You speak as if there was a european race lmao Spaniards overlap a lot with others western europeans and sometimes even greeks but saying that a finn or russian is phenotypically close to a spaniard is non-sense and dishonest but what can we really expect from a complexed south euro like yourself ?? don't worry i didn't question your whiteness or europeaness :rotfl:

[Samnium]

You speak as if there was a european race lmao Spaniards overlap a lot with others western europeans and sometimes even greeks but saying that a finn or russian is phenotypically close to a spaniard is non-sense and dishonest but what can we really expect from a complexed south euro like yourself ?? don't worry i didn't question your whiteness or europeaness

Lol Spaniards are very distant of Finns but even more of Moroccans when it comes to facial features. We aren't talking about extremes. I don't buy the "med" theory, atleast not for NA. I've seen more Levantines that could pass in S.Europe than NA's honestly.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Your opinion as you said.





Sure are blacks with spanish nationality spaniards now ? same for gypsies? ...weak argument. You don't know the history of Morocco and it's current demographic state better stay quiet.





You speak as if there was a european race lmao Spaniards overlap a lot with others western europeans and sometimes even greeks but saying that a finn or russian is phenotypically close to a spaniard is non-sense and dishonest but what can we really expect from a complexed south euro like yourself ?? don't worry i didn't question your whiteness or europeaness :rotfl:

Africans with Spanish nationality are not native. People shown on the video are not and neither look like Sub-Saharan Africans. They look what they are, North Africans. It's not like the slave trade introduced Sub-Saharan genes that did not exist in the region previously, ancient North Africans always have had a substantial amount of SSA genes since the dawn of time.

The only person who is highly complexed is you since you deny your own people and are embarrassed of them apparently: everyone south of Morroco = not real Moroccan. You blend among those people on the videos I posted with no problem in my opinion, sorry if you think you are special.

[Nassbean]

Lol Spaniards are very distant of Finns but even more of Moroccans when it comes to facial features. We aren't talking about extremes. I don't buy the "med" theory, atleast not for NA. I've seen more Levantines that could pass in S.Europe than NA's honestly.

I totally disagree there is more chance than a south european look NA than A finn looking like an iberian ( finns are way more homogeneous and different in terms of phenotypes ) Also I opened a very detailed thread about NAs where I insist on the diversity present in NA and the size of the population + territory you can't compare the whole area to a small country like spain. You just don't buy the med theory because you simply despise NAs and you don't want to be associated with them if the world was controlled by MENA people you can be sure all southern euros would have begged to be seen as mena looking lol Everything about NAs is mediterranean : their culture, their genetic markers, their phenotypes, their main climat let alone the genetic components that they share with other meds ( like the anatolian farmer one for example which is the bigger one except for some exceptions).

[ÁGUIA]

Morocco (North Africa) have quite more individuals that look proper Iberian (especially women). But have most likely even more people who look completely further apart/removed from Iberian aesthetics as well, probably even so in comparison between Iberians and other more distant European populations in my opinion. So at the end it's kinda of a toss up.

http://www.miss-kabylie.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Miss-Kabylie-2016-6.jpg

https://www.zerozero.pt/img/jogadores/78/111378_med_kamel_ghilas.jpg
The football player is kabyle.
North Africans are a varied group, there's a cline North/South, the more south one goes the less they tend to overlap with Europe. Overall I would say some 10 to 20% pass in Europe.
This is how coastal North Africans look like without any cherrypicking. If someone can find a video of crowds more representative I would appreciate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MwR8ADt8iQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4MpnInZ6yU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B99iGfduXpc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef1xox1Gqa4

[Nassbean]

Africans with Spanish nationality are not native. People shown on the video are not and neither look like Sub-Saharan Africans. They look what they are, North Africans. It's not like the slave trade introduced Sub-Saharan genes that did not exist in the region previously, ancient North Africans always have had a substantial amount of SSA genes since the dawn of time.

The only person who is highly complexed is you since you deny your own people and are embarrassed of them apparently: everyone south of Morroco = not real Moroccan. You blend among those people on the videos I posted with no problem in my opinion, sorry if you think you are special.

Everyone knows on this forum why complexed south euro like you are acting like that ...nothing new here but I see that you keep denying facts after that it's me who is biased no problem let's take a look at the reality :


"The samples recovered from Middle Egypt span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the New Kingdom to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal "ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times."Schuenemann et al. "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods". Nature Communications, 2017



A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages." "The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago.

source : https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-10-138


21% of Moroccans belong to Sub Saharan maternal Haplogroups, in contrast 6% SSA paternal Haplogroups. ---> If you knew a little bit about Morocco's history you would have knew that berbers prefered to bring female slaves because they could mate with them and their mulatto children weren't marginalized (despite their mother remaining a slave) that's why there is such a contrast.


All living Berbers have some form of or forms of symbiotic relationship with native Africans. In every Rifian village of any size, the ironwork is done by a Negroid smith. Other Negroids serve as butchers and town criers at weekly markets, and still others are musicians who wander from tribe to tribe enlivening weddings and other festivities. Negroids, then, are the principal service personal among agricultural Berbers, and probably have been so since the introduction of iron into North Africa early in the Christian era.

Among the part-time and full-time nomads the interracial relationship is more complicated. The Ait Atta for example, who pasture their sheep ion the middle Atlas in summer and in the Dades Valley to the south in winter, have their castles and gardens in Dades valley. There they delegate the agricultural work to caste of Negroid serfs, the Haratin. Other Haratin are found in oases all along the northern fringe of the Sahara, and indeed throughout the desert.The camel nomads, particular the famed Tuareg, or People of Vel, are divided into castes of nobles, imghad, or camel-breeding dependents who also have their Haratin, and slaves. The merchant communities of the great oases, like the Mzabites of Ghardaia, foster endogamy as they belong to a schismatic sect of Islam, that of the Khawarij, or Kharijites. They to have their gardens tilled by Haratin. " From "THE LIVING RACES OF MAN" by Carleton S. Coon, 1965



Wherever or however they, the Berbers refuse to mate with the Negroid lower classes, but human nature bing what it is, there evidently has been a certain amount of mixture. In Morocco, the most Caucasoid tribes are those of the Rif and the Middle Atlas; in Algeria they are the Kabyles and the Shawia; and in Libya, the sedentary tribesmen of Jebel Nefusa. In certain regions the trickle of mixture with Africans has been balanced by the absorption of Arabs, not so much tribe by tribe but through the establishment of saintly families survived from the earlier of the two main Arab invasions. These Arabs come most from al-Hijaz and Yemen, and were not Bedawin." from "THE LIVING RACES OF MAN" by Carleton S. Coon, 1965



Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations.

source : https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/34/2/318/2680801#58231020



It is worthmentioning that, compared with current North African samples,IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in theMEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could bein agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide datafrom Morocco, which estimated a migration of western Africanorigin into Morocco only ~1,200 y ago

source : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325729790_Ancient_genomes_from_North_Africa_eviden ce_prehistoric_migrations_to_the_Maghreb_from_both _the_Levant_and_Europe


But yes I'm lying and i'm biased because I don't want to accept descendent of black slaves as moroccan lol if they are moroccans then spanish gypsies too. You just embarassed yourself.

[Tooting Carmen]

But yes I'm lying and i'm biased because I don't want to accept descendent of black slaves as moroccan lol if they are moroccans then spanish gypsies too. You just embarassed yourself.

OK, what is the darkest and most non-Caucasoid person or phenotype you'd accept as 'native Moroccan'?

[Nassbean]

OK, what is the darkest and most non-Caucasoid person or phenotype you'd accept as 'native Moroccan'?

again I'm not saying that the average moroccan can pass in spain simply that there is obviously more overlap between the two than between spain and russia it's common sense

but now for answering your answer i'd say this is a good example of a dark moroccan ( a native one) :

https://i.imgur.com/c11FIlh.png

[Morena]

Passing:

As a group, no. As individuals, yes.

/end thread


again I'm not saying that the average moroccan can pass in spain simply that there is obviously more overlap between the two than between spain and russia it's common sense

but now for answering your answer i'd say this is a good example of a dark moroccan ( a native one) :

https://i.imgur.com/c11FIlh.png


A funny anecdote. I went to a Russian festival this year, because there are many native Russians and Russian nationals in this area due to the high Tech presence. Even looking as I did, I did have a few people approach and speak Russian to me as though I were a native.

Granted, they could have thought I was Caucasian, :lol: but still. It's not a hard and fast rule. A Russian friend of ours gushed over that my daughter when this video came out because she claimed my daughter looked like her:


https://youtu.be/G0lZC6d96SU

Daughter is 1/2 Spanish, 1/4 Sicilian, 1/4 English/Scottish/German

And then, there was another one of my husband's coworkers who swore she had seen me before, because I reminded her of the actress from the classic children's movie, Father Frost, the brunette with the blue dress:

https://youtu.be/ygnS5njZRak

(I don't agree with her, but that was her opinion).

I actually think I have a better chance passing in Russia than in say, Finland.

[Samnium]

I totally disagree there is more chance than a south european look NA than A finn looking like an iberian ( finns are way more homogeneous and different in terms of phenotypes ) Also I opened a very detailed thread about NAs where I insist on the diversity present in NA and the size of the population + territory you can't compare the whole area to a small country like spain. You just don't buy the med theory because you simply despise NAs and you don't want to be associated with them if the world was controlled by MENA people you can be sure all southern euros would have begged to be seen as mena looking lol Everything about NAs is mediterranean : their culture, their genetic markers, their phenotypes, their main climat let alone the genetic components that they share with other meds ( like the anatolian farmer one for example which is the bigger one except for some exceptions).

Lol I'm not full southern euro, I don't care about being associated with NA or not by the way.

I can buy med theory for Levant somewhat, I've seen more Levantines that could pass in S.Euro than north-africans. Genetically they are the closest to Euros as well and for Northern Levantines they don't have that much SSA and less arabian.

It's a bit a stretch but less than passing Tunisians or Moroccans in Italy, Greece or Spain (I even didn't mentionned Albania, Bulgaria and other southern euro countries like that).

They may share some genetic components but remember that NA's on accurate PCA and tools (like G25) are closer to Ethiopians and Eritreans by far than to Southern Europeans, here an example with the moroccan average.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/651911248547676170/unknown.png

Algerian, closer to Eritrean than to West Sicily :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/651911958555000845/unknown.png

I don't want to being offensive it's just that NA are more related to Horners than to Southern Europe (even if there are regions with significant NA admixture like Iberia and Sicily but generally speaking you find traces of this ancestry all over Southern Europe).

[Nassbean]

Lol I'm not full southern euro, I don't care about being associated with NA or not by the way.

I can buy med theory for Levant somewhat, I've seen more Levantines that could pass in S.Euro than north-africans. Genetically they are the closest to Euros as well and for Northern Levantines they don't have that much SSA and less arabian.

It's a bit a stretch but less than passing Tunisians or Moroccans in Italy, Greece or Spain (I even didn't mentionned Albania, Bulgaria and other southern euro countries like that).

They may share some genetic components but remember that NA's on accurate PCA and tools (like G25) are closer to Ethiopians and Eritreans by far than to Southern Europeans, here an example with the moroccan average.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/651911248547676170/unknown.png

Algerian, closer to Eritrean than to West Sicily :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/651911958555000845/unknown.png

I don't want to being offensive it's just that NA are more related to Horners than to Southern Europe (even if there are regions with significant NA admixture like Iberia and Sicily but generally speaking you find traces of this ancestry all over Southern Europe).

Idk why you compare us with the levant my goal is not to pass in south europe wtf and are you even serious with berbers being closer to east african than south europe :picard2:

https://i.imgur.com/ZZq358K.png
https://i.imgur.com/w45eh25.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FXV1Anf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GkzC2PS.jpg

Here some g25 results of modern NAs :

https://i.imgur.com/GiLGVMx.jpg

his face :

https://i.imgur.com/k9779NT.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/znbveUG.jpg

his face :

https://i.imgur.com/C1CLosA.jpg?1


other random results :

https://i.imgur.com/jWoqBr1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jENt8t4.jpg


Here some oracles :

https://i.imgur.com/adn91af.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kQ5ypBf.png
https://i.imgur.com/Zn1Xzdw.png

Your g25 pics are pure bs ....east african wtf you really should control your hate because you went too far with this.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Morocco (North Africa) have quite more individuals that look proper Iberian (especially women). But have most likely even more people who look completely further apart/removed from Iberian aesthetics as well, probably even so in comparison between Iberians and other more distant European populations in my opinion. So at the end it's kinda of a toss up.

http://www.miss-kabylie.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Miss-Kabylie-2016-6.jpg

https://www.zerozero.pt/img/jogadores/78/111378_med_kamel_ghilas.jpg
The football player is kabyle.
North Africans are a varied group, there's a cline North/South, the more south one goes the less they tend to overlap with Europe. Overall I would say some 10 to 20% pass in Europe.
This is how coastal North Africans look like without any cherrypicking. If someone can find a video of crowds more representative I would appreciate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MwR8ADt8iQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4MpnInZ6yU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B99iGfduXpc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef1xox1Gqa4



The girl you posted is extremely out of place considering her origins. I never said that it is impossible to find Moroccans that pass in Southern Europe but you have to really dig for it and selectively cherry-pick. I saw all the videos you posted and there wasn't anyone that looked even remotely like her (and by the way there is barely any difference from the people I posted from Casablanca).

[Samnium]

Idk why you compare us with the levant my goal is not to pass in south europe wtf and are you even serious with berbers being closer to east african than south europe


Your g25 pics are pure bs ....east african wtf you really should control your hate because you went too far with this.


No my G25 aren't pure bias, I've picked up G25 modern averages. I've tried to remove as many NA populations on the source as I could to show the distances with other groups.

In this PCA World you can see clearly the relatedness to Horners :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/636848776736407555/646731453543088140/mZlql6M.png

BTW I don't say that NA's are totally unrelated to Southern Euros, they are simply closer to the most-arabian admixed Horners (and even the other I don't know) and it's a fact.

It's not hating, I'm the first to not denying relations that can link Southern Euros to MENA people.

[Nassbean]

The girl you posted is extremely out of place considering her origins. I never said that it is impossible to find Moroccans that pass in Southern Europe but you have to really dig for it and selectively cherry-pick. I saw all the videos you posted and there wasn't anyone that looked even remotely like her (and by the way there is barely any difference from the people I posted from Casablanca).

she's from kabylia (region in Algeria) and isn't an outlier in her region ...

[Nassbean]

No my G25 aren't pure bias, I've picked up G25 modern averages. I've tried to remove as many NA populations as I could to show the distances with other groups.

In this PCA World you can see clearly the relatedness to Horners :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/636848776736407555/646731453543088140/mZlql6M.png

BTW I don't say that NA's are totally unrelated to Southern Euros, they are simply closer to the most-arabian admixed Horners (and even the other I don't know) and it's a fact.

It's not hating, I'm the first to not denying relations that can link Southern Euros to MENA people.

Then you're blind take a look again at your pic only the extreme ones are closer to horners ( and in my case i'm certainly not closer to them i'm less ME and more EUR shifted than the average) Also autosomally berbers share almost nothing in common with east africans so that doesn't even make sense.

[Samnium]

Then you're blind take a look again at your pic only the extreme ones are closer to horners ( and in my case i'm certainly not closer to them i'm less ME and more EUR shifted than the average) Also autosomally berbers share almost nothing in common with east africans so that doesn't even make sense.

You're definitely an outlier but if we go by the G25 average Moroccans and Algerians are closer to Horners. It may not be "representative" but given internal migration and as you said "slaves descendants" added to the ancient close affinity to "subsaharans" caused by iberomaurusian component I sincerely wouldn't expect that the average NA would be closer to S.Euros than to Horners. And even it's only SE Euros that I'm talking about, Iberians, Northern Italians etc. are SW Euros they are removed and going out of the East-Med continuum and if we extend, the "south-med" connection (despite the fact that Iberians can have up to 10% NA).

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Everyone knows on this forum why complexed south euro like you are acting like that ...nothing new here but I see that you keep denying facts after that it's me who is biased no problem let's take a look at the reality :

Dude I have barely ever interacted with you on this forum, quit with the "you're a complexed Southern European" if you don't have anything better to say. I am not the one who spends his days here gladiating with others and becoming passive-aggressive\thumbing others down everytime someone disagrees with me.

Egyptians as you know are an exception in the North of Africa being closer to Levantines and Bedouins rather than Berbers. I don't know why you bring them up with that study, I know that I mentioned SSA among North Africans but I thought it was clear that we were talking about Berber nations. By the way, modern Egyptians have absorbed a significant percentage of Sub-Saharan genomes that wasn't as present in ancient Egyptians.

Don't be intellectually dishonest, when I mentioned sub-Saharan I wasn't talking about haplogroups but autosomally. You know very well that Moroccans either ancient or modern can be modeled as 20% to 50% sub-Saharan on average depending on the individual.

Interestingly you decided to omit this from your own study: "Recent aDNA analysis of Moroccan Later Stone Age samples from the Taforalt site indicates that at least one-third of Taforalt ancestry derives from sub-Saharan African populations."

[Nassbean]

You're definitely an outlier but if we go by the G25 average Moroccans and Algerians are closer to Horners. It may not be "representative" but given internal migration and as you said "slaves descendants" added to the ancient close affinity to "subsaharans" caused by iberomaurusian component I sincerely wouldn't expect that the average NA would be closer to S.Euros than to Horners. And even it's only SE Euros that I'm talking about, Iberians, Northern Italians etc. are SW Euros they are removed and going out of the East-Med continuum and if we extend, the "south-med" connection (despite the fact that Iberians can have up to 10% NA).

Sure i'm an outlier and berbers are closer to east africans

https://media.giphy.com/media/4BvHSffsBtRJu/source.gif

[ÁGUIA]

The girl you posted is extremely out of place considering her origins. I never said that it is impossible to find Moroccans that pass in Southern Europe but you have to really dig for it and selectively cherry-pick. I saw all the videos you posted and there wasn't anyone that looked even remotely like her (and by the way there is barely any difference from the people I posted from Casablanca).

I didn't say she is typical (obviously she is not, but not a rarity either), you misunderstood me. I said that is much more common to find "Iberoids" types in NA than it is in Russia. But at the same time, they have a good bunch of types which are even more further apart from Iberians, then Iberians are to other Europeans of per example Northern or Eastern extract. That was my point.
It's not that rare to find NAs passable in Europe, like I told some 10 to 20% probably pass. At least in coastal regions, seems fair, from what I see.
In regards to the videos, I used precisely videos of coastal NAs' crowds, and two of them of kabyles (often described as the lightest of NAs, which is not true either, they are on par with other coastal Maghrebians) to show that Nassbean's claim is also, disproportional, and far from reality. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282574-Spanish-or-Moroccan&p=6374893&viewfull=1#post6374893)

[Nassbean]

Dude I have barely ever interacted with you on this forum, quit with the "you're a complexed Southern European" if you don't have anything better to say. I am not the one who spends his days here gladiating with others and becoming passive-aggressive\thumbing others down everytime someone disagrees with me.

Egyptians as you know are an exception in the North of Africa being closer to Levantines and Bedouins rather than Berbers. I don't know why you bring them up with that study, I know that I mentioned SSA among North Africans but I thought it was clear that we were talking about Berber nations. By the way, modern Egyptians have absorbed a significant percentage of Sub-Saharan genomes that wasn't as present in ancient Egyptians.

Don't be intellectually dishonest, when I mentioned sub-Saharan I wasn't talking about haplogroups but autosomally. You know very well that Moroccans either ancient or modern can be modeled as 20% to 50% sub-Saharan on average depending on the individual.

Interestingly you decided to omit this from your own study: "Recent aDNA analysis of Moroccan Later Stone Age samples from the Taforalt site indicates that at least one-third of Taforalt ancestry derives from sub-Saharan African populations."

unfortunately for you this has been debunked by a recent study :


Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources.

source : https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full

Also you forget that during the late neolithic there was an important european influx :


By 3,000 BCE, a continuity in the Neolithic spread brought Mediterranean-like ancestry to the Maghreb, most likely from Iberia. Other archaeological remains, such as African elephant ivory and ostrich eggs found in Iberian sites, confirm the existence of contacts and exchange networks through both sides of the Gibraltar strait at this time. Our analyses strongly support that at least some of the European ancestry observed today in North Africa is related to prehistoric migrations, and local Berber populations were already admixed with Europeans before the Roman conquest. Furthermore, additional European/Iberian ancestry could have reached the Maghreb after KEB people; this scenario is supported by the presence of Iberian-like Bell-Beaker pottery in more recent stratigraphic layers of IAM and KEB caves. Future paleogenomic efforts in North Africa will further disentangle the complex history of migrations that forged the ancestry of the admixed populations we observe today.

source : https://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6774#sec-2

As I said you don't know what you're talking about and yes descendant of slaves aren't natives...and quite ironic that you reproach my agressivity while you were the first to complain like an hysterical iberian who can handle the fact that there is overlap if you're that mature don't waste your time with such debates you're too emotional.

[Kamal900]

You're definitely an outlier but if we go by the G25 average Moroccans and Algerians are closer to Horners. It may not be "representative" but given internal migration and as you said "slaves descendants" added to the ancient close affinity to "subsaharans" caused by iberomaurusian component I sincerely wouldn't expect that the average NA would be closer to S.Euros than to Horners. And even it's only SE Euros that I'm talking about, Iberians, Northern Italians etc. are SW Euros they are removed and going out of the East-Med continuum and if we extend, the "south-med" connection (despite the fact that Iberians can have up to 10% NA).

No. They're not closer to horners at all. Guanche Berbers:

Distance to: Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.02140125 Moroccan_North
0.02343083 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.03152961 Mozabite
0.04341673 Tunisian
0.04365939 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.04423089 Algerian
0.05516884 Moroccan
0.05533454 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.06177543 Saharawi
0.06684666 Libyan
0.06844407 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.10696785 Egyptian
0.13649502 BedouinA
0.14599665 Libyan_Jew
0.14709200 Tunisian_Jew
0.14815335 Moroccan_South
0.14889356 Moroccan_Jew
0.14987081 Palestinian
0.15883508 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.16249740 Yemenite_Amran
0.16278432 Spanish_Canarias
0.16449875 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.16951868 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.16974850 French_Corsica_o
0.16994430 Sephardic_Jew

You're conflating the Southern Maghrebis to other Maghrebis where most of them live in the coast.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18761-Who-are-North-Africans-descended-from&p=617485&viewfull=1#post617485

[Nassbean]

I didn't say she is typical (obviously she is not, but not a rarity either), you misunderstood me. I said that is much more common to find "Iberoids" types in NA than it is in Russia. But at the same time, they have a good bunch of types which are even more further apart from Iberians, then Iberians are to other Europeans of per example Northern or Eastern extract. That was my point.
It's not that rare to find NAs passable in Europe, like I told some 10 to 20% probably pass. At least in coastal regions, seems fair, from what I see.
In regards to the videos, I used precisely videos of coastal NAs' crowds, and two of them of kabyles (often described as the lightest of NAs, which is not true either, they are on par with other coastal Maghrebians) to show that Nassbean's claim is also, disproportional, and far from reality. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282574-Spanish-or-Moroccan&p=6374893&viewfull=1#post6374893)

Should i post my whole family on my mother side ?? of course i expect iberians to say they are outliers as usual but they are just random riffians from the tafersit region and I agree I exaggerated with that 50% lol but easily 20-30% in the rif

[Nassbean]

No. They're not closer to horners at all. Guanche Berbers:

Distance to: Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.02140125 Moroccan_North
0.02343083 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.03152961 Mozabite
0.04341673 Tunisian
0.04365939 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.04423089 Algerian
0.05516884 Moroccan
0.05533454 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.06177543 Saharawi
0.06684666 Libyan
0.06844407 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.10696785 Egyptian
0.13649502 BedouinA
0.14599665 Libyan_Jew
0.14709200 Tunisian_Jew
0.14815335 Moroccan_South
0.14889356 Moroccan_Jew
0.14987081 Palestinian
0.15883508 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.16249740 Yemenite_Amran
0.16278432 Spanish_Canarias
0.16449875 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.16951868 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.16974850 French_Corsica_o
0.16994430 Sephardic_Jew

You're conflating the Southern Maghrebis to other Maghrebis where most of them live in the coast.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18761-Who-are-North-Africans-descended-from&p=617485&viewfull=1#post617485

Yes this guy really has a problem with us it's obvious he's 100% biased I'm still waiting for an objective italian member lol

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

unfortunately for you this has been debunked by a recent study :



source : https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full

Also you forget that during the late neolithic there was an important european influx :



source : https://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6774#sec-2

As I said you don't know what you're talking about and yes descendant of slaves aren't natives...and quite ironic that you reproach my agressivity while you were the first to complain like an hysterical iberian who can handle the fact that there is overlap if you're that mature don't waste your time with such debates you're too emotional.

There isn't a overlap with Moroccans anymore than there is with Russians in my opinion. I think that there are more chances of overlapping with Russians because their territory is too vast and there are too many ethnicities among them.

All samples that we have from Morocco have a significant portion of Sub-Saharan genomes from Iberomaurussians to modernity. How do you explain that a "super authentic" Berber such as yourself has 20% of Sub-Saharan ancestry? Do you descend from a Sub-Saharan slave too or those genomes have always been present among native North Africans?

By the way, since you're not complexed and hysterical as everybody is according to you, you should proudly carry your J1 haplogroup on your profile which in case you weren't aware has virtually zero chances of being paternally Berber and is likely Semitic (either Arab\Jewish\Levantine)...Mr. "Authentic Berber" who gets to decide who is a real Moroccan according to how Caucasian one looks or not...

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Can someone explain me why Guanches were 1/3 Sub-Saharan? Was it due to the trans-Saharan slave trade too? Did they ship slaves to the archipelagos? :lol:

[Nassbean]

There isn't a overlap with Moroccans anymore than there is with Russians in my opinion. I think that there are more chances of overlapping with Russians because their territory is too vast and there are too many ethnicities among them.

All samples that we have from Morocco have a significant portion of Sub-Saharan genomes from Iberomaurussians to modernity. How do you explain that a "super authentic" Berber such as yourself has 20% of Sub-Saharan ancestry? Do you descend from a Sub-Saharan slave too or those genomes have always been present among native North Africans?

By the way, since you're not complexed and hysterical as everybody is according to you, you should proudly carry your J1 haplogroup on your profile which in case you weren't aware has virtually zero chances of being paternally Berber and is likely Semitic (either Arab\Jewish\Levantine)...Mr. "Authentic Berber" who gets to decide who is a real Moroccan according to how Caucasian one looks or not...

WTF you're really late and still stuck in 2010 it seems....no north moroccans score 20% ssa are you crazy ? these are the most accurate results we have for authentic berbers :

https://i.imgur.com/jWoqBr1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GiLGVMx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/znbveUG.jpg

not even 10% ssa lol the 20% was before the study i showed you and gedmatch calculators have labelled a good part of the iberomaurusian component as ssa which is false that's why G25 is more accurate. My J1 isn't necessarily recent take a look at y-dna of guanches who were isolated from arab invasions :

https://i.imgur.com/AsSZbSZ.png

as you can see five of them had it how do you explain it ??

moreover i should add that when we look at my y-dna matches on mytrueancestry most of them have j1 but none are arabs...

https://i.imgur.com/Z3lNVlu.png
https://i.imgur.com/x74Nz03.png

...

[Nassbean]

Can someone explain me why Guanches were 1/3 Sub-Saharan? Was it due to the trans-Saharan slave trade too? Did they ship slaves to the archipelagos? :lol:

stop embarassing yourself no guanches were 1/3 ssa wtf ...pathetic next time be ready before attacking me.

[Kamal900]

Can someone explain me why Guanches were 1/3 Sub-Saharan? Was it due to the trans-Saharan slave trade too? Did they ship slaves to the archipelagos? :lol:

No bro. They weren't even 20% SSA either.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I am still waiting for you to explain me where did your SSA came from. Do you have ancestors who were Sub-Saharan slaves or was it always present among natives of Morocco?

Mesolithic Morocco Maurusian is 50% Sub-Saharan itself, so do the math.

Here are more tests (again, bare in mind that Iberomaurusian is ~50% SSA):

https://i.imgur.com/xeP3j6f.png


You can be autosomally Berber but J1 is not a Berber paternal line, lol, get over it.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--XF4TMBrZTk/WC8jgHB9KrI/AAAAAAAAAHo/iWcmeco2LpgoAyytdfkCOOJuQoBC62KXACLcB/s1600/idk.jpg

[Nassbean]

I am still waiting for you to explain me where did your SSA came from. Do you have ancestors who were Sub-Saharan slaves or was it always present among natives of Morocco?

Mesolithic Morocco Maurusian is 50% Sub-Saharan itself, so do the math.

Here are more tests (again, bare in mind that Iberomaurusian is ~50% SSA):

https://i.imgur.com/xeP3j6f.png


You can be autosomally Berber but J1 is not a Berber paternal line, lol, get over it.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--XF4TMBrZTk/WC8jgHB9KrI/AAAAAAAAAHo/iWcmeco2LpgoAyytdfkCOOJuQoBC62KXACLcB/s1600/idk.jpg

Iberomaurusian is not 50% SSA wtf are you talking about ???? and that one founder of my lineage was middle eastern who cares i have millions of ancestors and the ssa in modern NAs ( the "authentic" ones) is from the paleolithic era ( btw there are plenty of italians and iberians with j1 so what's your point?)

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Iberomaurusian is not 50% SSA wtf are you talking about ???? and that one founder of my lineage was middle eastern who cares i have millions of ancestors and the ssa in modern NAs ( the "authentic" ones) is from the paleolithic era ( btw there are plenty of italians and iberians with j1 so what's your point?)

So you finally admit that Moroccans always had a significant sub-Saharan input even before the slave trade? About time. J1 in the Iberian Peninsula isn't that common but the origin is either Neolithic, Phoenician, Jewish or Arabic paternal ancestry. One needs to test the sub-clade to be sure.

[Nassbean]

So you finally admit that Moroccans always had a significant sub-Saharan input even before the slave trade? About time. J1 in the Iberian Peninsula isn't that common but the origin is either Neolithic, Phoenician, Jewish or Arabic paternal ancestry. One needs to test the sub-clade to be sure.

Where did I admit we have a "significant" amount of SSA ?? some iberians have same level of ssa as north moroccans wtf are you talking about ? it's not 2% that will affect the phenotype like the moroccans in your videos ...It's clear that you have no arguments now :cool:

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Where did I admit we have a "significant" amount of SSA ?? some iberians have same level of ssa as north moroccans wtf are you talking about ? it's not 2% that will affect the phenotype like the moroccans in your videos ...It's clear that you have no arguments now :cool:

There isn't such thing as Moroccans with merely 2% Sub-Saharan ancestry. You are from the North and you have ~20% (based on your own results from your thread). Moroccans with the lowest Sub-Saharan ancestry are either Sephardic or descend from expelled Muslim Iberians (though I doubt they haven't been completely absorbed by the locals by now) rather than native Berbers.

[ÁGUIA]

Should i post my whole family on my mother side ?? of course i expect iberians to say they are outliers as usual but they are just random riffians from the tafersit region and

In which way you posting your family, is related to what I posted? I've seen you, your father, uncle, mother. None of you guys strike me as Iberian, your mom indeed is the one who comes closer, although some of her traits are very Berber, but I do agree to the untrained eye she would pass. To be honest I wouldn't advice no one to post their families in a place like this, but well ... In any case they could be all very Iberian looking, I don't understand how it would be a better argument than thousands of coastal NAs I posted previously.
My friend, this is from Al Hoceima, it's true that some minor individuals are mixed with SSA, but the majority is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MwR8ADt8iQ&feature=emb_title

I understand your point of view, and it's true that NAs are trolled around here, but the thing is you have this tendency to dismiss some of your fellow Moroccans merely based on your personal criteria of what a Berber should look like. And the reality is that most of those "darkies" you put aside are just North African as you are. Another thing is, no offense, but you are not even "proper Moroccan", I mean, you are a Belgian of Moroccan descent which is relatively different. I don't see for example Adamm or Phenix acting like this.
I would find bizarre if a Portuguese diaspora individual, would be the benchmark to decide who and who is not Portuguese.
I still don't understand why some people in here struggle so much with being swarthy, there's nothing wrong with it, for example majority of Portuguese are.

I agree I exaggerated with that 50% lol but easily 20-30% in the rif
Seems more reasonable, on an individual level you guys have folks who look quite Portuguese/Spanish in my opinion. I would say overall some 10 to 20%, more leaning to 20% of North Africans pass in Europe.

Good night to all :)

[Cristiano viejo]

some iberians have same level of ssa as north moroccans :

Seriously, boy... you smoke too much hachís :rolleyes:
After claiming Moroccans are lighter than Spaniards, that Morocco is greener than Spain, now this? :lol:

[Nassbean]

There isn't such thing as Moroccans with merely 2% Sub-Saharan ancestry. You are from the North and you have ~20% (based on your own results from your thread). Moroccans with the lowest Sub-Saharan ancestry are either Sephardic or descend from expelled Muslim Iberians (though I doubt they haven't been completely absorbed by the locals by now) rather than native Berbers.

Again why are you lying ?? because you're scared to admit the existence of moroccans with less than 5% ssa ?? I just posted a study who show that iberomaurusian had no ssa ( and gedmatch label it as ssa wrongly that's why it shows 18% ssa for me) and I also posted G25 results of riffians like me why did you avoid them ? take a look again one has 2.8% ssa lol You're not up to date when it comes to genetics you're simply a hater that lost the debate against someone that has 10 years less than you.

[Nassbean]

Seriously, boy... you smoke too much hachís :rolleyes:
After claiming Moroccans are lighter than Spaniards, that Morocco is greener than Spain, now this? :lol:

https://i.imgur.com/jWoqBr1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/znbveUG.jpg

Seriously i know some iberians who have more ssa than them...

[Cristiano viejo]

Seriously i know some iberians who have more ssa than them...

Showing strange calculators about components from 10.000 years ago sounds as a very cool story.

[Nassbean]

Showing strange calculators about components from 10.000 years ago sounds as a very cool story.

Ok you clearly don't know what you're talking about better stay quiet moro

[Cristiano viejo]

Ok you clearly don't know what you're talking about better stay quiet moro

hahaha, now you made me laugh, little rapist ;)

[Zuh]

hahaha, now you made me laugh, little rapist ;)

De hecho fue muy gracioso no eres el unico como decimos en Mexico ahora los patos le tiran a las escopetas :P

[Dna8]

https://www.gimnasticdetarragona.cat/primer-equip/plantilla/nastic

[Nassbean]

hahaha, now you made me laugh, little rapist ;)

Ironic ... I suddenly hear the amerindian women crying

[Cristiano viejo]

Ironic ... I suddenly hear the amerindian women crying

Amerindian women were offered to Spaniards, it was a very Amerindian tradition, not need to rape them.
Try it harder.

[Nassbean]

Amerindian women were offered to Spaniards, it was a very Amerindian tradition, not need to rape them.
Try it harder.

reality :

"Native women and their communities were profoundly affected by the sexual
attacks and attendant violence."

" The native people were resisting missionization. Some were becoming warlike and hostile because of the soldiers' repeated outrages against the women."

https://www.law.berkeley.edu/php-programs/centers/crrj/zotero/loadfile.php?entity_key=FJSI8D4W

"The soldiers would often rape the native women of the villages" http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/5views/5views1b.htm

"offered" he said ...smh

[Cristiano viejo]

"offered" he said ...smh

It is very well documented. Ask Mexican members. Or if you were not Moroccan aka illiterate you could read some book about it.

[Zuh]

Amerindian women were offered to Spaniards, it was a very Amerindian tradition, not need to rape them.
Try it harder.

Funny how he is trying to insult me what a moron i also have 0% conquistador blood .


While hes people were the bottom of castes .

[Zuh]

reality :

"Native women and their communities were profoundly affected by the sexual
attacks and attendant violence."

" The native people were resisting missionization. Some were becoming warlike and hostile because of the soldiers' repeated outrages against the women."

https://www.law.berkeley.edu/php-programs/centers/crrj/zotero/loadfile.php?entity_key=FJSI8D4W

"The soldiers would often rape the native women of the villages" http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/5views/5views1b.htm

"offered" he said ...smh

Get yourself educated. The whole rape thing was a completely myth by latin american government education and black legend.

Spanish women did came too .

[Nassbean]

It is very well documented. Ask Mexican members. Or if you were not Moroccan aka illiterate you could read some book about it.

sorry i'm not interested into your country's history except the al andalus part

[Nassbean]

Get yourself educated. The whole rape thing was a completely myth by latin american government education and black legend.

Spanish women did came too .

you're latino yourself so i can understand that it offends you but facts are facts you really think no spaniard raped an amerindian woman ?? that's pure dishonesty of course a lot of rapes happened

[Zuh]

you're latino yourself so i can understand that it offends you but facts are facts you really think no spaniard raped an amerindian woman ?? that's pure dishonesty of course a lot of rapes happened


So what if im latino? Is it wrong to assumed people backgrounds and being fucking clueless i have 0000% conquistador blood my pure spanish bloodlines were introduced from lates 1800s and earlies 1900s.


Here my maternal grandmother her and her family looked spanish.

https://i.ibb.co/zsYRVyc/78330701-727690211073056-4811547184765861888-n.jpg

[Nassbean]

So what if im latino? Is it wrong to assumed people backgrounds and being fucking clueless i have 0000% conquistador blood my pure spanish bloodlines were introduced from lates 1800s and earlies 1900s.


Here my maternal grandmother her and her family looked spanish.

https://i.ibb.co/zsYRVyc/78330701-727690211073056-4811547184765861888-n.jpg

I'm not talking about your personal case i'm talking in general for all america and her history saying no rapes happened is far-fetched

[Cristiano viejo]

sorry i'm not interested into your country's history except the al andalus part

Pity that that is not true and you were interested in the history of Spain the 21st century coming here to parasite.


I'm not talking about your personal case i'm talking in general for all america and her history saying no rapes happened is far-fetchedRapes were not need. Women in the Amerindian societies were a tribute whom tribes traded. You are welcome for this lesson of history.

[Samnium]

No. They're not closer to horners at all. Guanche Berbers:

Distance to: Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.02140125 Moroccan_North
0.02343083 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.03152961 Mozabite
0.04341673 Tunisian
0.04365939 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.04423089 Algerian
0.05516884 Moroccan
0.05533454 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.06177543 Saharawi
0.06684666 Libyan
0.06844407 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.10696785 Egyptian
0.13649502 BedouinA
0.14599665 Libyan_Jew
0.14709200 Tunisian_Jew
0.14815335 Moroccan_South
0.14889356 Moroccan_Jew
0.14987081 Palestinian
0.15883508 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.16249740 Yemenite_Amran
0.16278432 Spanish_Canarias
0.16449875 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.16951868 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.16974850 French_Corsica_o
0.16994430 Sephardic_Jew

You're conflating the Southern Maghrebis to other Maghrebis where most of them live in the coast.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18761-Who-are-North-Africans-descended-from&p=617485&viewfull=1#post617485

Just lol. Try to put the distances with Spaniards, northern Italians or Balkanites you will see that they are closer. Even here only the most southern shifted Jewish populations appear :picard2:

It's you that are conflating the North-African connection. I don't deny the fact that Levantine populations can be very close relatively speaking to southern euros, north-africans not at all... And even if they were closer they would be far far far from what S.Europe is genetically.

The Moroccan average isn't south Morocco, it's an average made of several samples coming from this country. Algerian the same. I can believe to the fact that they aren't representative but all the evidences point out that NA's are a lot removed even from what we call the East Med continuum stretching from Central Italy to Levant. And even more to northern influenced southern euros. A serbian for instance would be closer to a mari than to a north-african.

+ For the SSA give me a break. All NA's score more direct SSA than any southern european the most that I've seen is from a portuguese, 4% and again it's an outlier the extreme.majority of iberians.score below.2% if not 1%.

[Samnium]

Yes this guy really has a problem with us it's obvious he's 100% biased I'm still waiting for an objective italian member lol

Keep in mind that I'm half french and I'm born in France. I'm a french with some italian ancestry. From my italian side I would feel a lot more closer to Greeks than to NA's, you're very unrelated genetically, culturally and phenotypically.

By the way you're trying to say that NA's are what a standard med would have been, I say no. The med race doesn't exist and genetically there is an enormous gap genetically between let's say Tanger and Morocco in front of.

[Adamm]

Can someone explain me why Guanches were 1/3 Sub-Saharan? Was it due to the trans-Saharan slave trade too? Did they ship slaves to the archipelagos? :lol:

Guenaches were majority E-M81 > (E-M183 subclade) which is a relatively new common ancestor (around 2200 years old), this subclade is the most dominant in Morocco, which means the SSA of the Guenchez Berbers pre-dates the trans-Saharan slave trade, which is also a proof that buries the myth about most of our Sub Saharan ancestry coming from slave trade. Sub Saharan African component in NA is very ancient (pre-dates 10.000 years +) and was probably inherited from our Iberomaurusian component which definitely had a portion of SSA.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In which way you posting your family, is related to what I posted? I've seen you, your father, uncle, mother. None of you guys strike me as Iberian, your mom indeed is the one who comes closer, although some of their traits are very Berber, but I do agree to the untrained eye she would pass. To be honest I wouldn't advice no one to post their families in a place like this, but well ... In any case they could be all very Iberian looking, I don't understand how it would be a better argument than thousands of coastal NAs I posted previously.
My friend, this is from Al Hoceima, it's true that some minor individuals are mixed with SSA, but the majority is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MwR8ADt8iQ&feature=emb_title

I understand your point of view, and it's true that NAs are trolled around here, but the thing is you have this tendency to dismiss some of your fellow Moroccans merely based on your personal criteria of what a Berber should look like. And the reality is that most of those "darkies" you put aside are just North African as you are. Another thing is, no offense, but you are not even "proper Moroccan", I mean, you are a Belgian of Moroccan descent which is relatively different. I don't see for example Adaam or Phenix acting like this.
I would find bizarre if a Portuguese diaspora individual, would be the benchmark to decide who and who is not Portuguese.
I still don't understand why some people in here struggle so much with being swarthy, there's nothing wrong with it, for example majority of Portuguese are.

Seems more reasonable, on an individual level you guys have folks who look quite Portuguese/Spanish in my opinion. I would say overall some 10 to 20%, more leaning to 20% of North Africans pass in Europe.

Good night to all :)

More realistically ~3% of Moroccans can pass convincingly individually and never as a group. Saying that 10% to 20% can pass is not being corroborated with the videos I, you and everybody else has posted. I am not seeing 10 or 20 people out of a 100 that could pass in here.


Again why are you lying ?? because you're scared to admit the existence of moroccans with less than 5% ssa ?? I just posted a study who show that iberomaurusian had no ssa ( and gedmatch label it as ssa wrongly that's why it shows 18% ssa for me) and I also posted G25 results of riffians like me why did you avoid them ? take a look again one has 2.8% ssa lol You're not up to date when it comes to genetics you're simply a hater that lost the debate against someone that has 10 years less than you.

I don't recall having mentioned your age (neither do I know or care how old you are) and I didn't tried to discredit your arguments based on your age. I am not trying to win or loose too, this isn't a competition so don't be insecure.

Moroccans with that genetic profile are virtually non-existent and unlikely. Iberomaurusian did have a substantial amount of Sub-Saharan ancestry and people without an agenda like your countryman Adamm have no problem in admitting it.

Sub-Saharan samples contained in the Eurogenes project or other Gedmatch projects are not based on Iberomaurusian samples, so you getting ~20% Sub-Saharan genomes has nothing to do with the supposedly misinterpretation of the program. Inform yourself, please.



https://i.imgur.com/jWoqBr1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/znbveUG.jpg

Seriously i know some iberians who have more ssa than them...


G25 is a great tool but gives the power to anyone who is doing it to be able to manipulate the outcome of the results by adding or omitting samples to fit a bias. Run the same people with modern samples and you will see a quite different outcome. Plus, I have already explained to you that Mesolithic Morocco Maurusian is partially Sub-Saharan so you need to interpret the results baring that in mind.

Some Berber averages (with better fit than yours):


https://i.imgur.com/cYepem1.png

https://i.imgur.com/RufZzrX.png

https://i.imgur.com/sOnWfPC.png

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Guenaches were majority E-M81 > (E-M183 subclade) which is a relatively new common ancestor (around 2200 years old), this subclade is the most dominant in Morocco, which means the SSA of the Guenchez Berbers pre-dates the trans-Saharan slave trade, which is also a proof that buries the myth about most of our Sub Saharan ancestry coming from slave trade. Sub Saharan African component in NA is very ancient (pre-dates 10.000 years +) and was probably inherited from our Iberomaurusian component which definitely had a portion of SSA.


I agree with what you say the problem is that Nassbean believes that Ancient Moroccans did not have SSA or he tends to contradict himself to justify his agenda: Moroccans who do not fit his criteria are slave descents and those who do fit his criteria whatever SSA they might have is from the Palaeolithic.

Also my point was that E-M81 is clearly a Berber marker while J1 is not.

[Samnium]

I agree with what you say the problem is that Nassbean believes that Ancient Moroccans did not have SSA or he tends to contradict himself to justify his agenda: Moroccans who do not fit his criteria are slave descents and those who do fit his criteria whatever SSA they might have is from the Palaeolithic.

Also my point was that E-M81 is clearly a Berber marker while J1 is not.

And honestly for passing I've seen a lot of moroccans since there is a large moroccan community in France, none can pass.

[Adamm]

I agree with what you say the problem is that Nassbean believes that Ancient Moroccans did not have SSA or he tends to contradict himself to justify his agenda: Moroccans who do not fit his criteria are slave descents and those who do fit his criteria whatever SSA they might have is from the Palaeolithic.

Also my point was that E-M81 is clearly a Berber marker while J1 is not.

I don't agree with Nassbean, also those G25 results he's using aren't proving his point because the huge amount of Maurisian component is partly SSA, but the SSA of the Iberimaurusians is still a mystery as to which people it belonged (researchers are speaking about a ghost population) and if I'm not mistaken recent studies suggest that Yoruba gives best fits for them but I'm not sure about that. But without any doubt we indigenous North African berbers have Sub Saharan Ancestry and this is something most genetic research studies have proven, denying this by using a biased G25 datasheet is not gonna work on me. And the indigenous North African Berber marker is E-M81 which is native to North Western Africa, J(1 or 2) isn't native to Northern Africa and came from the Middle East to North Africa, either through neolithic levant migration or through some later migration (Phoenicians or Arabs).

[Nassbean]

Keep in mind that I'm half french and I'm born in France. I'm a french with some italian ancestry. From my italian side I would feel a lot more closer to Greeks than to NA's, you're very unrelated genetically, culturally and phenotypically.

By the way you're trying to say that NA's are what a standard med would have been, I say no. The med race doesn't exist and genetically there is an enormous gap genetically between let's say Tanger and Morocco in front of.

Again where did I say we're close to italians or that we're close culturally ?? The mediterranean sea is a big genetic barrier like the sahara I'm aware of this ..but from your interventions on this forum it's clear that you aren't objective when it comes to NAs.

[Nassbean]

I don't agree with Nassbean, also those G25 results he's using aren't proving his point because the huge amount of Maurisian component is partly SSA, but the SSA of the Iberimaurusians is still a mystery as to which people it belonged (researchers are speaking about a ghost population) and if I'm not mistaken recent studies suggest that Yoruba gives best fits for them but I'm not sure about that. But without any doubt we indigenous North African berbers have Sub Saharan Ancestry and this is something most genetic research studies have proven, denying this by using a biased G25 datasheet is not gonna work on me. And the indigenous North African Berber marker is E-M81 which is native to North Western Africa, J(1 or 2) isn't native to Northern Africa and came from the Middle East to North Africa, either through neolithic levant migration or through some later migration (Phoenicians or Arabs).

This ghost population you're talking about is ANA and none of them maurusian or ANA can be considered SSA. Moreover in previous pages I posted a study that show that Iberomaurusians had no ssa It's just shared alleles with some west african groups and I also posted this :


It is worthmentioning that, compared with current North African samples,IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in theMEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could bein agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide datafrom Morocco, which estimated a migration of western Africanorigin into Morocco only ~1,200 y ago

source : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325729790_Ancient_genomes_from_North_Africa_eviden ce_prehistoric_migrations_to_the_Maghreb_from_both _the_Levant_and_Europe

[The Blade]

Since I know who this is I'll refrain from commenting.
As a whole these ethnicities look nothing alike though.

[Samnium]

Again where did I say we're close to italians or that we're close culturally ?? The mediterranean sea is a big genetic barrier like the sahara I'm aware of this ..but from your interventions on this forum it's clear that you aren't objective when it comes to NAs.

I just replied to your fallacies, you can say that I'm not objective I can argue the same thing.

[Cristiano viejo]

Achraf Hakimi is a good example of how Moroccans look in Spain

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Moroccan-Player-Achraf-Hakimi-on-English-Club-Chelsea%E2%80%99s-Wishlist.jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

Achraf Hakimi is a good example of how Moroccans look in Spain

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Moroccan-Player-Achraf-Hakimi-on-English-Club-Chelsea%E2%80%99s-Wishlist.jpg

What about Abdelatif Benazzi? https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?210263-Classify-retired-French-prop-of-Moroccan-descent-Abdelatif-Benazzi

[Nassbean]

Achraf Hakimi is a good example of how Moroccans look in Spain

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Moroccan-Player-Achraf-Hakimi-on-English-Club-Chelsea%E2%80%99s-Wishlist.jpg

He's not his mother is black (haratin) :

https://i.imgur.com/J7fTcXm.jpg

[Nassbean]

What about Abdelatif Benazzi? https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?210263-Classify-retired-French-prop-of-Moroccan-descent-Abdelatif-Benazzi

He's way more typical than this hakimi

[Cristiano viejo]

What about Abdelatif Benazzi? https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?210263-Classify-retired-French-prop-of-Moroccan-descent-Abdelatif-Benazzi
Typical Moroccan features.


He's not his mother is black (haratin) :

He is. Most of the Moroccans we see daily in Spain look like this footballer, and any picture of Moroccan immigrants like these that other users are posting here certify it.
I dont care if his mother looks darker or his father lighter.

[Samnium]

Typical Moroccan features.


He is. Most of the Moroccans we see daily in Spain look like this footballer, and any picture of Moroccan immigrants like these that other users are posting here certify it.
I dont care if his mother looks darker or his father lighter.

Most of Moroccans that I see are like that indeed also in France.

[Hashoeva]

Moroccans in general have a Middle Eastern / appearance or like a mixed with sub saharan african appearance. Sometimes you can find Moroccans who can pass as Spanish Andalusian or Spaniards as Moroccan. Because South Europeans have some Middle Eastern ancestry and there are Moroccans with some ancestry from Iberia too. But Moroccans can also look very African mixed. They have a good amount of SSA ancestry and it is mainly from their women side.