What to Sicilians, Ashkenazi and Lebanese people? Here is my theory.

[Sp_loa]

Can someone explain this situation to me?

I don’t understand why people think Ashkenazi are half north Italian just because Gedmatch gives that module.
Sephardim Italian Ancestry is clearly from the south. That’s what 23andme usually shows in recent locations of ancestry features for Sephardim.
and also Sephardim sometimes get dozens of gentile Italian matches from Campania, Puglia, Sicily and Calabria.

And when it comes to South Italians-
I don’t think South Italians are half levantine half North Italian. They just plot this way, but even bulgarian can plot as Romanian+levant and that doesn’t make it true. Sicilians also plot as 70% Levantine+30% Scottish, is it ture? obviously not.

Phoenician influences on puglia, campania or even Sicily were minoric to non existing depending on the region. Look at this map of Phoenician colonies vs Greek colonies-
map of Phoenician (in yellow) and Greek colonies (red)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg/660px-Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg

Greek influences however were very strong. South Italian obviously are mainly Greek (I'd guess links to peloponnese) with a bit of MENA (around 15%) from Phoenicians and Tunisians. They also have bits Roman and sometimes Norman blood, but obviously mainly Greek (the MENA south shifts them to a more dodecanese like components).
I don't think they are half lombard half Lebanese, it's just doesn't make sense with the history of the region.
I don’t understand how one can think Campanians are half Lebanese! Think rationally.

If Italian DNA of Ashkenazi is the same as the Italian DNA of Sephardim then it's South Italian. There is also a levantine component and some central Europe (bits of Rhineland and some Slavic together at around 15-20% I guess) that balance the levant (North shift vs the South shift of the levant) and that’s why the plot with Sicilians if you ask me.

If anyone disagrees with me, I want to hear why.
Stop claiming Sicilians are half MENA. They are mainly European East med with bits of MENA, not near half. To me South Italians are European in any possible way!

[Dna8]

I imagine that the Mediterranean has allowed for novel genetical interrelationships.

[Sp_loa]

I imagine that the Mediterranean has allowed for novel genetical interrelationships.

Agree but claiming Campanians and Apulians are 50% Lebanese is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard.

[Dna8]

Agree but claiming Campanians and Apulians are 50% Lebanese is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard.

I'll leave the genetical to the geneticists.

Nice thread.

[Antinoo]

Sicilians and Southern Italians cluster with Europe not with the middle East. 23andme is amateur stuff, well-done DNA analysis don’t show any significant MENA presence...

Italian Genetics( includes sicilians):

Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.
(Plaza et al. 2003; Romano et al. 2003)


Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians’ even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere, but a single sub-Saharan African E(xE3b) sequence was found in the first study’s sample of 416 (0.2%), and six were observed in the second study’s sample of 746 (0.8%). The total is therefore a minuscule 0.6%, which decreases to 0.4% if only Southern Italians are considered and 0% if only Sicilians are considered. Again, these are normal levels of admixture for European populations (e.g. Austrians were found to have 0.8% E(xE3b) by Brion et al. 2004). (Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2004)

An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a “line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon,” which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.”
(Simoni et al. 1999)

Simoni et al. (1999) “divide the Mediterranean area into 2 large clusters, a northern cluster and a southern cluster,” noting that “the existence of sharp genetic differences between the northern and southern coasts means that gene flow was more the exception than the rule.” This is seen as “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.” Samples in this study include Middle Easterners and North Africans (southern coast), and Italians from the mainland and islands (northern coast). [10]

A 2013 study by Peristera Paschou et al. confirms that the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a strong barrier to gene flow through geographic isolation following initial settlements. Samples from (Northern) Italy, Tuscany, Sicily and Sardinia are closest to other Southern Europeans from Iberia, the Balkans and Greece, who are in turn closest to the Neolithic migrants that spread farming throughout Europe, represented here by the Cappadocian sample from Anatolia. But there hasn't been any significant admixture from the Middle East or North Africa into Italy and the rest of Southern Europe since then.

Kandil et al. (1999) have analyzed populations on both sides of the Mediterranean sea, finding that “the major genetic differentiation axis in the Mediterranean basin is a north-south axis”, which “clearly differentiates the North African and Middle Eastern populations from the European populations. … As expected, the highest distances are shown by the European-North African comparisons [while] the lowest genetic distances correspond to intra-European comparisons.” Included on the ‘European’ side are mainland Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians. [11]

Vona et al. (1998), in a study on western Sicilians, conclude that “the genetic differentiation of the population of Trapani [a former Carthaginian center] and the populations of southern Italy appears quite clear cut from the populations of North Africa. Our analysis seems, therefore, not to confirm the existence of an evident genic flow [from] the Northern African populations.” The study also notes that “Palermo [a Phoenician city and later Moorish capital] lies close to Calabria” in a “branch group[ing] all the Italian and European populations” together, separate from the North African ones.

Scozzari et al. (2001) identify a Y-chromosome mutation that “diverged from the ancestor HG25.1 somewhere in North Africa a few thousand years ago”, and is thus indicative of recent gene flow from North African males. The authors report that the marker “HG25.2 was seen at generally low frequencies in Spain, France, and Italy” (0.8% in Sicilians).

Cruciani et al. (2004) confirm the above, using the frequencies of ‘Berber’ mutations (now labeled E-M81 and E-M78β) in large sample populations to estimate that North African paternal admixture within the past 5000 years amounts to 1.5% in Northern Italians, 2.2% in Central Italians, 0% in Southern Italians, 1.4% in Sardinians and 1.4% in Sicilians.

Capelli et al. (2005) identify the Y-chromosome marker J*(xJ2) (or J-M267) as possible evidence of modern Arab/Semitic, rather than prehistoric Neolithic, gene flow from the Near East. This lineage exists at the low frequency of 5.2% in Sicilians, with no significant difference between the eastern and western halves of the island.

Romano et al. (2003) detect sub-Saharan (Negroid) mtDNA sequences at a rate of 0.65% in a Sicilian sample of 465, which is comparable to admixture levels for Western and Northern Europe. Asian mtDNA is observed at a frequency of 2.2%, again consistent with Northern and Eastern European admixture levels.

[Sp_loa]

Sicilians and Southern Italians cluster with Europe not with the middle East. 23andme is amateur stuff, well-done DNA analysis don’t show any significant MENA presence...

Italian Genetics( includes sicilians):




An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a “line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon,” which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.”
(Simoni et al. 1999)

Simoni et al. (1999) “divide the Mediterranean area into 2 large clusters, a northern cluster and a southern cluster,” noting that “the existence of sharp genetic differences between the northern and southern coasts means that gene flow was more the exception than the rule.” This is seen as “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.” Samples in this study include Middle Easterners and North Africans (southern coast), and Italians from the mainland and islands (northern coast). [10]

A 2013 study by Peristera Paschou et al. confirms that the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a strong barrier to gene flow through geographic isolation following initial settlements. Samples from (Northern) Italy, Tuscany, Sicily and Sardinia are closest to other Southern Europeans from Iberia, the Balkans and Greece, who are in turn closest to the Neolithic migrants that spread farming throughout Europe, represented here by the Cappadocian sample from Anatolia. But there hasn't been any significant admixture from the Middle East or North Africa into Italy and the rest of Southern Europe since then.

Kandil et al. (1999) have analyzed populations on both sides of the Mediterranean sea, finding that “the major genetic differentiation axis in the Mediterranean basin is a north-south axis”, which “clearly differentiates the North African and Middle Eastern populations from the European populations. … As expected, the highest distances are shown by the European-North African comparisons [while] the lowest genetic distances correspond to intra-European comparisons.” Included on the ‘European’ side are mainland Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians. [11]

Vona et al. (1998), in a study on western Sicilians, conclude that “the genetic differentiation of the population of Trapani [a former Carthaginian center] and the populations of southern Italy appears quite clear cut from the populations of North Africa. Our analysis seems, therefore, not to confirm the existence of an evident genic flow [from] the Northern African populations.” The study also notes that “Palermo [a Phoenician city and later Moorish capital] lies close to Calabria” in a “branch group[ing] all the Italian and European populations” together, separate from the North African ones.

Scozzari et al. (2001) identify a Y-chromosome mutation that “diverged from the ancestor HG25.1 somewhere in North Africa a few thousand years ago”, and is thus indicative of recent gene flow from North African males. The authors report that the marker “HG25.2 was seen at generally low frequencies in Spain, France, and Italy” (0.8% in Sicilians).

Cruciani et al. (2004) confirm the above, using the frequencies of ‘Berber’ mutations (now labeled E-M81 and E-M78β) in large sample populations to estimate that North African paternal admixture within the past 5000 years amounts to 1.5% in Northern Italians, 2.2% in Central Italians, 0% in Southern Italians, 1.4% in Sardinians and 1.4% in Sicilians.

Capelli et al. (2005) identify the Y-chromosome marker J*(xJ2) (or J-M267) as possible evidence of modern Arab/Semitic, rather than prehistoric Neolithic, gene flow from the Near East. This lineage exists at the low frequency of 5.2% in Sicilians, with no significant difference between the eastern and western halves of the island.

Romano et al. (2003) detect sub-Saharan (Negroid) mtDNA sequences at a rate of 0.65% in a Sicilian sample of 465, which is comparable to admixture levels for Western and Northern Europe. Asian mtDNA is observed at a frequency of 2.2%, again consistent with Northern and Eastern European admixture levels.

23andme actually supports your claim. It's a very good ancestry test, the best one. I mentioned 23andme because it gives south Italian genetic matches to Jews, which make sense as I think Jews mixed with South italians and not with North Italians.
Thank you very much!
Sikeliot with his "All south Italians are half lebanese half lombard and therefore look Semitic". It didn't make sense from the first place.

South Italians are East-Med (Europeans) with just small MENA blood (around 15% which is nothing). Europeans just like everyone else in Europe is! If they are not European then Greeks aren't too, and that's no one sane will say.

[Sp_loa]

People do you agree with me or not?

[Haider]

They are obviously not 50% 'Lebanese', but they have around 20% post-Neolithic Middle Eastern admixture. Askhenazim are mostly Roman.

[Sp_loa]

They are obviously not 50% 'Lebanese', but they have around 20% post-Neolithic Middle Eastern admixture. Askhenazim are mostly Roman.

Even if Ashkenazim are Roman (Lazio) Rome is Southern Italy Genetically:
Gedmatch from Rome:
ERSON #1:

Eurogenes:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.18
2 West_Med 17.5
3 Atlantic 17.02
4 West_Asian 14
5 North_Sea 8.13
6 Baltic 5.2
7 Red_Sea 3.22
8 Eastern_Euro 2.56
9 Oceanian 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.49
2 West_Sicilian 6.35
3 Central_Greek 6.55
4 East_Sicilian 6.89
5 Italian_Abruzzo 7.21
6 Italian_Jewish 7.49
7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.02
8 Algerian_Jewish 8.56
9 Ashkenazi 9.65
10 Greek 10.18
11 Tunisian_Jewish 12.04
12 Tuscan 12.09
13 Greek_Thessaly 12.54
14 Cyprian 14.02
15 Libyan_Jewish 15.05
16 Lebanese_Muslim 18.13
17 North_Italian 18.26
18 Bulgarian 18.5
19 Turkish 19.68
20 Syrian 19.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.5% Cyprian + 34.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.72
2 73.3% West_Sicilian + 26.7% Cyprian @ 4.04
3 72.4% South_Italian + 27.6% West_Sicilian @ 4.09
4 66.3% Cyprian + 33.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.13
5 68% Cyprian + 32% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.16
6 69.2% Cyprian + 30.8% Southwest_French @ 4.2
7 64.5% Cyprian + 35.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.21
8 82.4% West_Sicilian + 17.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.24
9 73.8% Cyprian + 26.2% French_Basque @ 4.29
10 97% South_Italian + 3% French_Basque @ 4.34
11 64.9% Cyprian + 35.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.34
12 96% South_Italian + 4% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.36
13 57.1% Cyprian + 42.9% North_Italian @ 4.38
14 66.7% Cyprian + 33.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.39
15 96.7% South_Italian + 3.3% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.39
16 96.5% South_Italian + 3.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.4
17 97% South_Italian + 3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.41
18 96.8% South_Italian + 3.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.42
19 97.4% South_Italian + 2.6% Southwest_French @ 4.42
20 92.4% South_Italian + 7.6% Greek @ 4.43


MDLP:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.80
2 European_Early_Farmers 25.96
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.83
4 Near_East 9.66
5 South_Central_Asian 9.32
6 North_African 5.59


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.740780
2 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 5.023220
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.301664
4 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 6.103673
5 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.435147
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 6.694051
7 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 6.848995
8 Maltese_ @ 7.081935
9 French_Jew_ @ 7.847890
10 Ashkenazi_ @ 8.380787
11 Cretan_ @ 8.853014
12 Romanian_Jew_ @ 9.404002
13 Sicilian_Center_ @ 9.846186
14 Italian_South_ @ 9.979024
15 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 10.110147
16 Greek_Athens_ @ 10.209079
17 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 10.575519
18 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 10.605286
19 Central_Greek_ @ 10.866992
20 Greek_ @ 11.108239


Ashkenazi Jews are Southern Italian (even if Roman)+ Rhineland Slavic Levantine.
Sephardi Jews vary by country. The most European North African Sephardim from lets say Oran or Tetouan (so called Andalusi Spanish speaking Jews) are mix of Iberia, Southern Italy, Berber and Levantine.

[Leto]

I don't know. A study said Ashkenazim are about half European and like 2/3 of the European is Southern. That's all I know.

[Sp_loa]

I don't know. A study said Ashkenazim are about half European and like 2/3 of the European is Southern. That's all I know.

For the South Italian matter - people in this forum should understand already they are not half MENA. Just East-Meds Europeans (like Greeks) with some MENA but not near half. South Italians are European!

For my theory about Ashkenazim fits with gedmatch. On the 4 way oracle they can be modeled as South Italian+Lebanese+Lebanese+Hungarian with a very good distance.
I'd say something like 5% Rhineland, 15% Slavic (West Slavic probably) and 30% South-Central Italian. that's + 50% Hebrew.

Sephardim aren't as homogenous. My grandmother for example is probably something around 35% South-Central Italian +15% Spanish+ 20% Berber+30% Hebrew. But some can be less European and some more.

[Smeagol]

They are obviously not 50% 'Lebanese', but they have around 20% post-Neolithic Middle Eastern admixture. Askhenazim are mostly Roman.

I agree.

[Leto]

For the South Italian matter - people in this forum should understand already they are not half MENA. Just East-Meds Europeans (like Greeks) with some MENA but not near half. South Italians are European!

For my theory about Ashkenazim fits with gedmatch. On the 4 way oracle they can be modeled as South Italian+Lebanese+Lebanese+Hungarian with a very good distance.
I'd say something like 5% Rhineland, 15% Slavic (West Slavic probably) and 30% South-Central Italian. that's + 50% Hebrew.

Sephardim aren't as homogenous. My grandmother for example is probably something around 35% South-Central Italian +15% Spanish+ 20% Berber+30% Hebrew. But some can be less European and some more.
The Lebansese thing was mainly promoted by one guy whom many TA Italians see as a dipshit - Sikeliot. But South Italian do score very little North European, some of Sikeliot's posts were less than 10% NE on Dodecad! For comparison people like Northern Greeks can get as much as 30% which is also the average for Bulgarians.

[Sp_loa]

The Lebansese thing was mainly promoted by one guy whom many TA Italians see as a dipshit - Sikeliot. But South Italian do score very little North European, some of Sikeliot's posts were less than 10% NE on Dodecad! For comparison people like Northern Greeks can get as much as 30% which is also the average for Bulgarians.

Northern Greeks have Slavic admix.
Anyway Southern Italy was settled by Peloponnesians at the time. Not even "mainland Greeks"

[ModernMaskil]

I'd say something like 5% Rhineland, 15% Slavic (West Slavic probably) and 30% South-Central Italian. that's + 50% Hebrew.

Seems accurate to me.

[grecoroman]

hebrews
https://i.postimg.cc/2jvdTsmL/image.png


lebanese
https://i.postimg.cc/0NWp1fmn/11.png


italian
https://s33.postimg.cc/tx1bf5vr3/image.png

[Sp_loa]

hebrews
https://i.postimg.cc/2jvdTsmL/image.png


lebanese
https://i.postimg.cc/0NWp1fmn/11.png


italian
https://s33.postimg.cc/tx1bf5vr3/image.png

I'm not talking about phenotypes and Italians are very diverse (It's kinda fake ethnicity like being "Jew" as there are many distinct subgroups).
BTW what was your reference for hebrews? Mizrahim are mixed with Assyrians and Persian Jews also with Iranians and South Asians sometimes so they are not the best reference group.

[Tacitus]

Can someone explain this situation to me?

I don’t understand why people think Ashkenazi are half north Italian just because Gedmatch gives that module.
Sephardim Italian Ancestry is clearly from the south. That’s what 23andme usually shows in recent locations of ancestry features for Sephardim.
and also Sephardim sometimes get dozens of gentile Italian matches from Campania, Puglia, Sicily and Calabria.

And when it comes to South Italians-
I don’t think South Italians are half levantine half North Italian. They just plot this way, but even bulgarian can plot as Romanian+levant and that doesn’t make it true. Sicilians also plot as 70% Levantine+30% Scottish, is it ture? obviously not.

Phoenician influences on puglia, campania or even Sicily were minoric to non existing depending on the region. Look at this map of Phoenician colonies vs Greek colonies-
map of Phoenician (in yellow) and Greek colonies (red)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg/660px-Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg

Greek influences however were very strong. South Italian obviously are mainly Greek (I'd guess links to peloponnese) with a bit of MENA (around 15%) from Phoenicians and Tunisians. They also have bits Roman and sometimes Norman blood, but obviously mainly Greek (the MENA south shifts them to a more dodecanese like components).
I don't think they are half lombard half Lebanese, it's just doesn't make sense with the history of the region.
I don’t understand how one can think Campanians are half Lebanese! Think rationally.

If Italian DNA of Ashkenazi is the same as the Italian DNA of Sephardim then it's South Italian. There is also a levantine component and some central Europe (bits of Rhineland and some Slavic together at around 15-20% I guess) that balance the levant (North shift vs the South shift of the levant) and that’s why the plot with Sicilians if you ask me.

If anyone disagrees with me, I want to hear why.
Stop claiming Sicilians are half MENA. They are mainly European East med with bits of MENA, not near half. To me South Italians are European in any possible way!

I generally agree with all this, just want to point out a couple things:

1) It's more likely that Sephardim received their Euro input from Imperial-era Romans rather than directly from southern Italy. From the teaser re ancient Roman DNA, at that time period they plot closest to modern southern Italians. Perhaps they intermingled with Roman colonists in Spain at the time? The new Olalde paper implies that modern Iberians do have a fair amount of Roman/Italian input.

2) Regarding south Italians I don't think the more eastern and southern genetic inputs come from anything after the Bronze Age, with the possible exception of North Africans in Sicily during the Moorish occupation (IIRC, Sazzini et al 2015 estimated NA input in Sicily to be around ~5%). There's also a significant Bronze Age Caucasus-like input that people tend to look over, probably because the paper in question was never really discussed on anthrofora (I wonder why...):
Boattini et al 2018, unfortunately behind a pay wall now but I was able to glean some relevant parts from it earlier:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03014460.2017.1411525?src=recsys&


While the contribution of the pre-Neolithic European hunter-gatherers—which is relevant in other European countries (Skoglund et al., 2012 Skoglund P, Malmström H, Raghavan M, Storå J, Hall P, Willerslev E, Gilbert MT, et al. 2012. Origins and genetic legacy of Neolithic farmers and hunter-gatherers in Europe. Science 336:466–469.[Crossref], [PubMed], [Web of Science ®], [Google Scholar])—is only moderate in Southern Italy and Sicily, the most important layers of the ‘continuum’ seem to refer to later events. They are (1) a huge Neolithic-like genetic component (∼50%) and (2) a Bronze Age component incorporating a significant Caucasus-related ancestry (∼24%). If the former is obviously related to migrations that spread Neolithic technologies towards the West, the second one suggests a less known net of Bronze-Age population movements along the Eastern Mediterranean shores through Anatolia.



The same studies suggested that this peculiar genetic background (‘Mediterranean continuum’) was already in place at least at the end of the Bronze Age. Subsequent major population movements, such as the Greek colonisation of ‘Magna Graecia’, mostly reinforced this peculiar pattern, while some minor differences emerged only in more recent times, most notably as a by-product of the Early Middle Ages Slavic migrations and of later migrations prompted by the Turkish-Ottoman invasion of the Balkan Peninsula (such as in the case of the Arbereshe; Fiorini et al., 2007 Fiorini S, Tagarelli G, Boattini A, Luiselli D, Piro A, Tagarelli A, Pettener D. 2007. Ethnicity and Evolution of the Biodemographic Structure of Arbëreshe and Italian Populations of the Pollino Area, Southern Italy (1820–1984). American Anthropol. 109:735–746.[Crossref], [Web of Science ®], [Google Scholar]).



The ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’, shared between Sicily, Southern Italy and a wider Mediterranean area, traces its origins to Neolithic and Bronze Age layers. It took shape along thousands of years of East–West migrations, of which the Greek conquest of the area (Magna Graecia) was probably only the last of a long series. On the other hand, the differentiation identified by surnames took place later, probably starting from the late Middle Ages and continuing until recent times, without erasing the underlying genetic homogeneity. Since the surname structure is clearly shaped by geography, we may hypothesise that it mainly originated from low-rate, short-distance population mobility, which finally resulted in an isolation-by-distance-like pattern.

I'm truly looking forward to the upcoming Reich paper that will have samples from Neolithic and Bronze Age Sicily. The teaser provided a few months ago implied in the latter Iran_Neo, Aegean, and even Steppe-like ancestry (Myceaneans?).

[Sp_loa]

I generally agree with all this, just want to point out a couple things:

1) It's more likely that Sephardim received their Euro input from Imperial-era Romans rather than directly from southern Italy. From the teaser re ancient Roman DNA, at that time period they plot closest to modern southern Italians. Perhaps they intermingled with Roman colonists in Spain at the time? The new Olalde paper implies that modern Iberians do have a fair amount of Roman/Italian input.

2) Regarding south Italians I think the more eastern and southern genetic inputs come from anything after the Bronze Age, with the possible exception of North Africans in Sicily during the Moorish occupation (IIRC, Sazzini et al 2015 estimated NA input in Sicily to be around ~5%). There's also a significant Bronze Age Caucasus-like input that people tend to look over, probably because the paper in question was never really discussed on anthrofora (I wonder why...):
Boattini et al 2018, unfortunately behind a pay wall now but I was able to glean some relevant parts from it earlier:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03014460.2017.1411525?src=recsys&


While the contribution of the pre-Neolithic European hunter-gatherers—which is relevant in other European countries (Skoglund et al., 2012 Skoglund P, Malmström H, Raghavan M, Storå J, Hall P, Willerslev E, Gilbert MT, et al. 2012. Origins and genetic legacy of Neolithic farmers and hunter-gatherers in Europe. Science 336:466–469.[Crossref], [PubMed], [Web of Science ®], [Google Scholar])—is only moderate in Southern Italy and Sicily, the most important layers of the ‘continuum’ seem to refer to later events. They are (1) a huge Neolithic-like genetic component (∼50%) and (2) a Bronze Age component incorporating a significant Caucasus-related ancestry (∼24%). If the former is obviously related to migrations that spread Neolithic technologies towards the West, the second one suggests a less known net of Bronze-Age population movements along the Eastern Mediterranean shores through Anatolia.





I'm truly looking forward to the upcoming Reich paper that will have samples from Neolithic and Bronze Age Sicily. The teaser provided a few months ago implied in the latter Iran_Neo, Aegean, and even Steppe-like ancestry (Myceaneans?).

I'm truly looking forward to the upcoming Reich paper that will have samples from Neolithic and Bronze Age Sicily. The teaser provided a few months ago implied in the latter Iran_Neo, Aegean, and even Steppe-like ancestry (Myceaneans?).

Thank you for adding scientific details to this paper. I just couldn't ignore it anymore reading so many people here saying Sicilians are half North Italians half Levantine. This is crazy. Sikeliot started this trend and everybody followed him.

Ayway many Sephardim in 23andme get recent ancestry of location for Southern Italy (I know Turkish Sephardic with strong match for Sicily) and even my grandmother match distant cousins from Italy (Sicily, Bari, Campania) in 23andme and they are fully gentile, so Idk...

[hush2019]

Can someone explain this situation to me?

I don’t understand why people think Ashkenazi are half north Italian just because Gedmatch gives that module.
Sephardim Italian Ancestry is clearly from the south. That’s what 23andme usually shows in recent locations of ancestry features for Sephardim.
and also Sephardim sometimes get dozens of gentile Italian matches from Campania, Puglia, Sicily and Calabria.

And when it comes to South Italians-
I don’t think South Italians are half levantine half North Italian. They just plot this way, but even bulgarian can plot as Romanian+levant and that doesn’t make it true. Sicilians also plot as 70% Levantine+30% Scottish, is it ture? obviously not.

Phoenician influences on puglia, campania or even Sicily were minoric to non existing depending on the region. Look at this map of Phoenician colonies vs Greek colonies-
map of Phoenician (in yellow) and Greek colonies (red)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg/660px-Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg

Greek influences however were very strong. South Italian obviously are mainly Greek (I'd guess links to peloponnese) with a bit of MENA (around 15%) from Phoenicians and Tunisians. They also have bits Roman and sometimes Norman blood, but obviously mainly Greek (the MENA south shifts them to a more dodecanese like components).
I don't think they are half lombard half Lebanese, it's just doesn't make sense with the history of the region.
I don’t understand how one can think Campanians are half Lebanese! Think rationally.

If Italian DNA of Ashkenazi is the same as the Italian DNA of Sephardim then it's South Italian. There is also a levantine component and some central Europe (bits of Rhineland and some Slavic together at around 15-20% I guess) that balance the levant (North shift vs the South shift of the levant) and that’s why the plot with Sicilians if you ask me.

If anyone disagrees with me, I want to hear why.
Stop claiming Sicilians are half MENA. They are mainly European East med with bits of MENA, not near half. To me South Italians are European in any possible way!

These ethnicities have nothing basic in common.

[Tacitus]

The Lebansese thing was mainly promoted by one guy whom many TA Italians see as a dipshit - Sikeliot. But South Italian do score very little North European, some of Sikeliot's posts were less than 10% NE on Dodecad! For comparison people like Northern Greeks can get as much as 30% which is also the average for Bulgarians.

Obviously he would cherrypick results to fit his agenda. From the southern Italian results I've seen on Gedmatch, the Northern European range tends to be around 11-15%, although a fair few have scored above that range.


Thank you for adding scientific details to this paper. I just couldn't ignore it anymore reading so many people here saying Sicilians are half North Italians half Levantine. This is crazy. Sikeliot started this trend and everybody followed him.

Ayway many Sephardim in 23andme get recent ancestry of location for Southern Italy (I know Turkish Sephardic with strong match for Sicily) and even my grandmother match distant cousins from Italy (Sicily, Bari, Campania) in 23andme and they are fully gentile, so Idk...

Sikeliot started that meme because a few southern Italian results (the more southerly plotting ones) would come up as 50% North Italian 50% Lebanese Christian on Eurogenes, so he just ran with it to make it appear that southern Italians are half non-European.

Regarding the note you made about Turkish Sephardics, I do recall reading that after the expulsion of the Jews from Sicily, many did emigrate to Turkey (like Sephards from Spain I assume). So I guess it makes sense if there was some mixing going on.

[Sp_loa]

Obviously he would cherrypick results to fit his agenda. From the southern Italian results I've seen on Gedmatch, the Northern European range tends to be around 10-15%, although a fair few have scored above that range.



Sikeliot started that meme because a few southern Italian results (the more southerly plotting ones) would come up as 50% North Italian 50% Lebanese Christian on Eurogenes, so he just ran with it to make it appear that southern Italians are half non-European.

Regarding the note you made about Turkish Sephardics, I do recall reading that after the expulsion of the Jews from Sicily, many did emigrate to Turkey (like Sephards from Spain I assume). So I guess it makes sense.

Yes I agree but my grandmother is a Moroccan-Algerian Jew and she still matches gentile Italians in 23andme. Some Moroccan Jews also get specific locations for Italy in 23andme.
Anyway the gedmatch stuff is stupid as Sicilians can be modeled as 70% Lebanese+30% Scottish... so what? the 50% Lebanese+50% North Italian means nothing.
It's enough to read about the history of the region to understand the Greek and local Italic tribes had much more significant effect. Phoenicians didn't even settle in most of Southern Italy.

[Leto]

I'm not talking about phenotypes and Italians are very diverse (It's kinda fake ethnicity like being "Jew" as there are many distinct subgroups).
BTW what was your reference for hebrews? Mizrahim are mixed with Assyrians and Persian Jews also with Iranians and South Asians sometimes so they are not the best reference group.
So who are the pure Juice? :) Usually people think as follows: the Ashkenazim are part European mongrels, the non-European Jews are the real ones, except for a few obvious fringe groups such as the Beta Israel.

[manu15151513]

Southern Italians are often genetically closer to the Levantine Arab countries than the Maltese and Greeks of islands, so they are the European people, together with the Greek Greeks, closer to the Levantine Arabs genetically. Often the Greek islands are even more northerly than the southern Italians, with the exception of Crete. The reason? It seems to be due mainly to Middle Eastern Neolithic peasants and prehistoric migrations from those areas. Southern Italians can be modeled as 50% northern Italians and 50% Lebanon, but often with more Lebanon.


85967

[Sp_loa]

So who are the pure Juice? :) Usually people think as follows: the Ashkenazim are part European mongrels, the non-European Jews are the real ones, except for a few obvious fringe groups such as the Beta Israel.

No one. Ashkenazim are mixed with Central Europeans and Southern Europeans

East Sephardim are obviously mixed with Italians and Ashkenazim, sometimes with Spaniards.

Mizrahi Jews mixed with Assyrians, Persians (and in some cases South Asians and Central Asians).

Yemenite Jews are basically Arabs.

Moroccan and Algerian Jews vary greatly and in any case mixed with Spaniards and Italians (Sometimes strongly) and with Berbers (sometimes more Berber blood than levantine).

Tunisian and Libyan Jews are heavily mixed with Berbers, sometimes with Italians (not always a lot).

Egypt was a mutt of Karaites, Mizrahim, Sephardim and Ashkenazim.

Syrian Jews have some Italian blood (15%-20%) and some Spanish too (2-3%) and Berber (around 5%) from Sephardic immigrants.

Romaniotes are mixed with Byzantines (Italians and Greeks)

Indians Jews are either local convertors or Mizrahi from Iraq or conversos from Portugal (there were several subgroups)

Lebanese Jews I guess are the purest, but for sure they are mixed with lebanese people too (Phoenicians weren't so different from Hebrews so it's least damaging "purity"), and probably had some minoric Sephardi ancestry but it's the lesser of two evils. Problem is that Lebanese Jews were a very small community.

Original Judeans are long extinct. Closest thing to Israelites are the Samaritans.

[hush2019]

Ashkenazis are mixed equally with Sephardics as they are they are grouped together with Italian Jews on GED match and other websites.

[hush2019]

Southern Italians are often genetically closer to the Levantine Arab countries than the Maltese and Greeks of islands, so they are the European people, together with the Greek Greeks, closer to the Levantine Arabs genetically. Often the Greek islands are even more northerly than the southern Italians, with the exception of Crete. The reason? It seems to be due mainly to Middle Eastern Neolithic peasants and prehistoric migrations from those areas. Southern Italians can be modeled as 50% northern Italians and 50% Lebanon, but often with more Lebanon.


85967

Southern Italians are related to Ionian Greeks

[Sp_loa]

Southern Italians are often genetically closer to the Levantine Arab countries than the Maltese and Greeks of islands, so they are the European people, together with the Greek Greeks, closer to the Levantine Arabs genetically. Often the Greek islands are even more northerly than the southern Italians, with the exception of Crete. The reason? It seems to be due mainly to Middle Eastern Neolithic peasants and prehistoric migrations from those areas. Southern Italians can be modeled as 50% northern Italians and 50% Lebanon, but often with more Lebanon.


85967

Average South Italian is closer to Tuscans than to Levantines. Dodecanese and South Italian are not very different.
Southern Italians are basically Greek peloponnesians with some 20% MENA blood.

[manu15151513]

I would add that the areas that have historically had more Greek influences in the south are those that tend more genetically to the north. As far as I know, the ancient Greeks in the south belonged to Indo-European groups, perhaps they were genetically moved northward to the insular ones. Perhaps the island Greeks are genetically very close to the southern Italians due to the similar incisiveness that certain gene flows had in prehistoric times.

[Leto]

No one. Ashkenazim are mixed with Central Europeans and Southern Europeans

East Sephardim are obviously mixed with Italians and Ashkenazim, sometimes with Spaniards.

Mizrahi Jews mixed with Assyrians, Persians (and in some cases South Asians and Central Asians).

Yemenite Jews are basically Arabs.

Moroccan and Algerian Jews vary greatly and in any case mixed with Spaniards and Italians (Sometimes strongly) and with Berbers (sometimes more Berber blood than levantine).

Tunisian and Libyan Jews are heavily mixed with Berbers, sometimes with Italians (not always a lot).

Egypt was a mutt of Karaites, Mizrahim, Sephardim and Ashkenazim.

Syrian Jews have some Italian blood (15%-20%) and some Spanish too (2-3%) and Berber (around 5%) from Sephardic immigrants.

Romaniotes are mixed with Byzantines (Italians and Greeks)

Lebanese Jews I guess are the purest, but for sure they are mixed with lebanese people too (Phoenicians weren't so different from Hebrews so it's least damaging "purity"), and probably had some minoric Sephardi ancestry but it's the lesser of two evils. Problem is that Lebanese Jews were a very small community.

Original Judeans are long extinct. Closest thing to Israelites are the Samaritans.
Why are the Syrian Jews so mixed? Syria is close to Israel and probably a lot of Syrian Ayrabs have Jewish ancestry. Don't forget that Syria was mostly Christian until the mid 7th century.

[manu15151513]

Average South Italian is closer to Tuscans than to Levantines. Dodecanese and South Italian are not very different.
Southern Italians are basically Greek peloponnesians with some 20% MENA blood.

Usually yes, but the Tuscans are genetically central Italian, not northerners, although tending to the north. Furthermore, in the amateur calculators Tuscan reference samples may not be representative of the Tuscan people as a whole.

[Sp_loa]

Why are the Syrian Jews so mixed? Syria is close to Israel and probably a lot of Syrian Ayrabs have Jewish ancestry. Don't forget that Syria was mostly Christian until the mid 7th century.

Syrian Jews received moderate wave of Sephardic immigration from Spain, Turkey and Italy. At first the Arabic speaking Jews didn't mix with the European Jews (like in Morocco) but in the 18th century they started mixing.
I saw Syrian Jews that look very Atlantic European, obviously from the Sephardi admix.

[Antinoo]

Obviously he would cherrypick results to fit his agenda. From the southern Italian results I've seen on Gedmatch, the Northern European range tends to be around 11-15%, although a fair few have scored above that range.



Sikeliot started that meme because a few southern Italian results (the more southerly plotting ones) would come up as 50% North Italian 50% Lebanese Christian on Eurogenes, so he just ran with it to make it appear that southern Italians are half non-European.


Sikeliot cherrypicked results and also photos. If you notice well, in most of his threads, especially the ones in the Personal Taxonomy area, he posted random photos from Facebook of random people without names... No proof that those people were real South Italians...

[Rgvgjhvv]

Northern Greeks have Slavic admix.
Anyway Southern Italy was settled by Peloponnesians at the time. Not even "mainland Greeks"

???

[hush2019]

Average South Italian is closer to Tuscans than to Levantines. Dodecanese and South Italian are not very different.
Southern Italians are basically Greek peloponnesians with some 20% MENA blood.

There is no much thing as the levant in a racial sense. They ancient Levantines were Hittites/Anatolians they called them Syrio Hittites and others. They are related to South Europeans but Pontian Greeks and Cypriots. When I say related all three ethnicities in ancient times have a Balkan/Anatolian mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states

Those samples were based of people of the Levant not Levantines, and that's those with the Bronze Age dna. Most Semites came during the Iron Age anyway. When you say Levantines or Lebanese/Syrians it sounds trollish because it's lumping a region that has various different ethnicies together in the past and it's also comparing modern dna to ancient which is nothing alike.

[hush2019]

Sikeliot cherrypicked results and also photos. If you notice well, in most of his threads, especially the ones in the Personal Taxonomy area, he posted random photos from Facebook of random people without names... No proof that those people were real South Italians...

I knew a real Sicilian part Sicilian part German even he showed me his GED match results that said he was 4 percent Black. Sub Saharan Black not North African dude even had an Afro that's not made up, but not every Sicilian is like that. Yes some are blonde haired blue eyed even in Sicily. Probably Celts and Vikings went there not just Greeks or North Africans/Moors.

[Sp_loa]

There is so much thing as the levant in a racial sense. They ancient Levantines were Hittites/Anatolians they called them Syrio Hittites and others. They are related to South Europeans but Pontian Greeks and Cypriots. When I say related all three ethnicities in ancient times have a Balkan/Anatolian mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states

Those samples were based of people of the Levant not Levantines, and that's those with the Bronze Age dna. Most Semites came during the Iron Age anyway. When you say Levantines or Lebanese/Syrians it sounds trollish because it's lumping a region that has various different ethnicies together in the past and it's also comparing modern dna to ancient which is nothing alike.

I understand your point. I was using "Gedmatch names" for ethnicities.

[manu15151513]

Many Italians can be modeled as half Lebanese and half Iberian or northern Italian, many even more Lebanese than northern, especially in the deep south, but many not. In Apulia, lucania, abruzzo, molise and some parts of Sicily they are closer genetically to the Italian north than to Lebanon often, but in some areas of the deep south they are often considerably closer to Lebanon.

[hush2019]

Don't worry most people won't take the ''True Romance'' version of physical anthropology to heart. These forums are full of trolls mostly with political and objective opinions not really based on science.

[Sp_loa]

Many Italians can be modeled as half Lebanese and half Iberian or northern Italian, many even more Lebanese than northern, especially in the deep south, but many not. In Apulia, lucania, abruzzo, molise and some parts of Sicily they are closer genetically to the Italian north than to Lebanon often, but in some areas of the deep south we are often considerably closer to Lebanon.

It doesn't mean they are actually half Lebanese as Sikeliot used to claim. I can be modeled as 86% Greek, that's definitely not true.

[hush2019]

Many Italians can be modeled as half Lebanese and half Iberian or northern Italian, many even more Lebanese than northern, especially in the deep south, but many not. In Apulia, lucania, abruzzo, molise and some parts of Sicily they are closer genetically to the Italian north than to Lebanon often, but in some areas of the deep south they are often considerably closer to Lebanon.

No Italian would be half Lebanese via modern Lebanese dna. Lebanese Bronze Age dna is closer to Cyprus anyway according to GED match and sadly for skilot it includes the Muslims in that plotting as well as Christians.

Again it's based on PRE Arabic Bronze Age dna not modern ''Lebanese/Syrian Arabic dna'' which would have zero in common with most of Europe.

http://i68.tinypic.com/15eel54.png

[Kaspias]

No Italian would be half Lebanese via modern Lebanese dna. Lebanese Bronze Age dna is closer to Cyprus anyway according to GED match and sadly for skilot it includes the Muslims in that plotting as well as Christians.

Again it's based on PRE Arabic Bronze Age dna not modern ''Lebanese/Syrian Arabic dna'' which would have zero in common with most of Europe.

http://i68.tinypic.com/15eel54.png

Shut the fuck up. Stop spreading bullshits.

[hush2019]

Many Italians are actually half Lebanese lol that's insane

[manu15151513]

It doesn't mean they are actually half Lebanese as Sikeliot used to claim. I can be modeled as 86% Greek, that's definitely not true.

It means that you have single nucleotide polymorphisms that are not typical of either the northern Italians or the Lebanese, but of a Lebanese version with many more European components or alternatively of an Iberian or northern Italian version with many more northern components. It depends on the assumptions from which you start.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Southern Italians are often genetically closer to the Levantine Arab countries than the Maltese and Greeks of islands, so they are the European people, together with the Greek Greeks, closer to the Levantine Arabs genetically. Often the Greek islands are even more northerly than the southern Italians, with the exception of Crete. The reason? It seems to be due mainly to Middle Eastern Neolithic peasants and prehistoric migrations from those areas. Southern Italians can be modeled as 50% northern Italians and 50% Lebanon, but often with more Lebanon.


85967

I wouldn't take these mixed modes seriously though. For me too I get:

85.6% Greek + 14.4% Lebanese_Christian
82.6% Greek + 17.4% Lebanese_Muslim

Doesn't really mean anything.

[hush2019]

Shut the fuck up. Stop spreading bullshits.

Lol you shut the hell up Turk it's true according to GED match. The ''Levant'' in pre historic times had just as much PIES as Turkey had. Before the Yellows went and ruined everything.

[Sp_loa]

Many Italians are actually half Lebanese lol that's insane

That's a sikelie

[hush2019]

I wouldn't take these mixed modes seriously though. For me too I get:

85.6% Greek + 14.4% Lebanese_Christian
82.6% Greek + 17.4% Lebanese_Muslim

Doesn't really mean anything.
Agree PCA charts are just based on genetics, not literal races. As I explained Try the 36K or Geneplaza they are good for ancient samples.

[hush2019]

That's a sikelie

I know of course like I said Bronze Age populations even in the Levant were drastically different to modern day ones.

[Kaspias]

Lol you shut the hell up Turk it's true according to GED match. The ''Levant'' in pre historic times had just as much PIES as Turkey had. Before the Yellows went and ruined everything.

Are you trolling or you are really just a ignorant little cunt?

[manu15151513]

No Italian would be half Lebanese via modern Lebanese dna. Lebanese Bronze Age dna is closer to Cyprus anyway according to GED match and sadly for skilot it includes the Muslims in that plotting as well as Christians.

Again it's based on PRE Arabic Bronze Age dna not modern ''Lebanese/Syrian Arabic dna'' which would have zero in common with most of Europe.

http://i68.tinypic.com/15eel54.png



The cypriots are extremely genetically similar to the Lebanese, and some southern Italians are even closer to the Cypriots than to the central Italians, but usually not. It depends on the single nucleotide polymorphisms that are taken into consideration. On many calculators the Italians can be modeled as modern Lebanese halves.

[Leto]

@manu, what's your Y-DNA? Does the Morley predictor work for you?

[manu15151513]

@manu, what's your Y-DNA? Does the Morley predictor work for you?

I don't know what the Morley predictor is. It is R-U152.

My father is from Ostia, Rome.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Agree PCA charts are just based on genetics, not literal races. As I explained Try the 36K or Geneplaza they are good for ancient samples.

Which geneplaza app?

[Leto]

I don't know what the Morley predictor is. It is R-U152.

My father is from Ostia, Rome.
Nice. I have your kit number, you are a bit to the North of Abruzzo or something like that.

[manu15151513]

Nice. I have your kit number, you are a bit to the North of Abruzzo or something like that.

Yes, I am close to those of L'aquila, the chief town of Abruzzo, which is not really southern Italy but not even central Italy, a genetic and cultural medium. In the Abruzzo region they are more south than in eagle, so I find myself a little north of Abruzzo.

I look like an Italian of L'aquila very moved to Skyros.

[Kamal900]

Sikeliot will probably hate me for this but I fully agree, rofl. Though, I don't know on why they cluster the closest to Jews. Perhaps because Jews had mixed with Northern Italians which shifted them to Southern Italy and the Aegean Islands, perhaps?

[Streuner]

I don't know what the Morley predictor is. It is R-U152.

My father is from Ostia, Rome.

Interesting. Is it you in the photo? You look Lebanese.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Interesting. Is it you in the photo? You look Lebanese.

stfu

[hush2019]

The cypriots are extremely genetically similar to the Lebanese, and some southern Italians are even closer to the Cypriots than to the central Italians, but usually not. It depends on the single nucleotide polymorphisms that are taken into consideration. On many calculators the Italians can be modeled as modern Lebanese halves.

V

[hush2019]

The cypriots are extremely genetically similar to the Lebanese, and some southern Italians are even closer to the Cypriots than to the central Italians, but usually not. It depends on the single nucleotide polymorphisms that are taken into consideration. On many calculators the Italians can be modeled as modern Lebanese halves.

No they aren't they're extremely close to Lebanese with a Greco Anatolian match. That's Bronze Age Levantine dna the Hittites were Anatolians racially not Semitic/Arabic like the majority of Levantine people are today. Make a Differentiation.

[manu15151513]

Interesting. Is it you in the photo? You look Lebanese.

Yes I am. My appearance varies perhaps more than the average depending on the brightness of the context. When I took the picture it was full winter, so it wasn't the tan responsible for my dark complexion. If I take the sun for a while, in a very bright context I look so dark. In the area where I was born many people look like me.

[hush2019]

Which geneplaza app?

The ancient population sample is really good. It even told me what type of West Asian ethnicies I was related to like certain Armenian samples and certain Bronze Age Levantine samples etc.

[Rgvgjhvv]

The ancient population sample is really good. It even told me what type of West Asian ethnicies I was related to like certain Armenian samples and certain Bronze Age Levantine samples etc.

35K I think it's called, right? I'll give it a shot

[hush2019]

35K I think it's called, right? I'll give it a shot

Yes that's it it's interesting.

[Sp_loa]

Sikeliot will probably hate me for this but I fully agree, rofl. Though, I don't know on why they cluster the closest to Jews. Perhaps because Jews had mixed with Northern Italians which shifted them to Southern Italy and the Aegean Islands, perhaps?

Ashkenazi Jews mixed with South Italians but later also with Central Europeans so it balances the levant South shift.
Sephardi Jews are still a bit south shifted to Sicilians, and their Spanish is a North-shift

[Kamal900]

Ashkenazi Jews mixed with South Italians but later also with Central Europeans so it balances the levant South shift.
Sephardi Jews are still a bit south shifted to Sicilians, and their Spanish is a North-shift

I see. Makes sense to me.:thumb001:

[Sp_loa]

I see. Makes sense to me.:thumb001:

This is my theory hard to prove it for Ashkenazim. For Sephardi it's easily proven they have mainly South Italian inside the Italian.

[grecoroman]

Imagine telling the haredim they are Roman (Edom/eisav) descendants. Lol

[Sp_loa]

Imagine telling the haredim they are Roman (Edom/eisav) descendants. Lol

All Ashkenazim haredim I met were blonde/ginger with blue eyes, they tend to be 100 times fold lighter than the average Ashkenazi (if you ask me because of incest that brings out all recessive traits). They can't possibly think they have nothing European in them.

[grecoroman]

All Ashkenazim haredim I met were blonde/ginger with blue eyes, they tend to be 100 times fold lighter than the average Ashkenazi (if you ask me because of incest that brings out all recessive traits). They can't possibly think they have nothing European in them.

But haredim really believe that. They say they have a recorded lineage back to David.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXVA8bS86sc

[Lemgrant]

But haredim really believe that. They say they have a recorded lineage back to David.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXVA8bS86sc

2:29 "Jews never mixed with anyone" :clap2::rotfl

[Leto]

All Ashkenazim haredim I met were blonde/ginger with blue eyes, they tend to be 100 times fold lighter than the average Ashkenazi (if you ask me because of incest that brings out all recessive traits). They can't possibly think they have nothing European in them.
Are they absorbing mainstream Israelis into their community?

[Sp_loa]

But haredim really believe that. They say they have a recorded lineage back to David.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXVA8bS86sc

Some people have.
In my family too, not me but my grandmother side have direct paternal line back to david and they are indeed haplogroup Q-M378 that is found among Mizrahi, Sephardim and Ashkenazim and is prediasporal Judean.

But Autosomally Jews are very mixed.

[Sp_loa]

Are they absorbing mainstream Israelis into their community?

Not really.

[grecoroman]

2:29 "Jews never mixed with anyone" :clap2::rotfl

What about the last Irish ginger???
Maybe leprechauns were also of Hebrew stock. That explains the lust for gold. Lol

[grecoroman]

Are they absorbing mainstream Israelis into their community?

Haredim call Israeli Jewish women shiksa (gentile woman)

[Leto]

I think they could diversify their gene pool by mixing with mainstream Israelis. Too many cousin marriages is no good. Maybe Icelanders know how to balance that, I haven't heard of widespread genetic defects in Iceland.

[guezet]

Ashkenazi, Sicilians and Southern Italians don't plot with Lebanese people

https://image.ibb.co/gKWmqf/EURO-PCA-v3.jpg

[Smitty]

I think they could diversify their gene pool by mixing with mainstream Israelis. Too many cousin marriages is no good. Maybe Icelanders know how to balance that, I haven't heard of widespread genetic defects in Iceland.

I think Icelanders just abort all their deformed children. They've basically eradicated Down syndrome.

[mihyar]

All Ashkenazim haredim I met were blonde/ginger with blue eyes, they tend to be 100 times fold lighter than the average Ashkenazi (if you ask me because of incest that brings out all recessive traits). They can't possibly think they have nothing European in them.

I have long observed this too. My family in New York mingles a lot with Haredim, and if you dressed them in contemporary garb, you'd think 50-75% of them were ethnically distinct from non-Haredi Ashkenazim.

[Imperator Biff]

On global 25 I’m getting some good fits modelling Ashkenazim with Lebanon_BA, although I don’t think their Levantine ancestry is from Lebanon, this could be drift caused by their EEF rich southern euro admixture.