Danish Zeelander sample K36 Eurogenes map (R-M269)

[Matxe92]

1:
Ancestry: Zeeland + minor swedish
Y-DNA: R-M269

https://i.imgur.com/KjzC0m0.png

2: My sample:
Just to compare with my sample (With 25% Russian Pinega removed(Seemed most accurate to remove my polish))
Ancestry: Jutish + Funen
Y-DNA: I1-Z58
https://i.imgur.com/qyv9RTG.jpg

[nittionia]

Goes to show that Scandinavians are much more related to northwestern euros than a lot of people like to say


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[Matxe92]

Goes to show that Scandinavians are much more related to northwestern euros than a lot of people like to say


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Absolutely. I've never had any problem saying that. It's pretty obvious.
But i think more so, danes especially have much more in common with brits compared to norwegians and for sure swedes.

[nittionia]

Absolutely. I've never had any problem saying that. It's pretty obvious.
But i think more so, danes especially have much more in common with brits compared to norwegians and for sure swedes.

Yep Danes are definitely the most western shifted, Swedes from Skane or Smaland are too I guess.


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[Leto]

Absolutely. I've never had any problem saying that. It's pretty obvious.
But i think more so, danes especially have much more in common with brits compared to norwegians and for sure swedes.
Aren't Southern and Southwestern Norwegians essentially identical to Danes?

[Matxe92]

Yep Danes are definitely the most western shifted, Swedes from Skane or Smaland are too I guess.


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Potentially. One would imagine.
Skåne, Halland, Blekinge has been danish territory before. I think some are more related to Danes vs. Swedes tbh.

[Matxe92]

Aren't Southern and Southwestern Norwegians essentially identical to Danes?

In some cases potentially yes.
But in the majority of the cases norwegians (west & northwest) are actually the ones that seem "genetically" speaking the most distant from danes in scandinavia.
We are still very similiar don't get it wrong.

[nittionia]

Potentially. One would imagine.
Skåne, Halland, Blekinge has been danish territory before. I think some are more related to Danes vs. Swedes tbh.

Yeah the borders are like a gradient. Overall the whole of Scandinavia is so similar, but different enough to accurately differentiate.

[Leto]

In some cases potentially yes.
But in the majority of the cases norwegians (west & northwest) are actually the ones that seem "genetically" speaking the most distant from danes in scandinavia.
We are still very similiar don't get it wrong.
I thought Northern Swedes and possibly Northern Norwegians were the most distant. Danes are like the purest Scandos.

[Matxe92]

I thought Northern Swedes and possibly Northern Norwegians were the most distant. Danes are like the purest Scandos.

Purest? Danes are clearly the most british/northgerman/anglo-saxon shifted scandinavians.
That kind of admixture falls steadily when you move up through Sweden and Norway.

Danes are still scandos, no question, but most "pure" is probably the area around Sweden/Norway southern border.

[Leto]

Purest? Danes are clearly the most british/northgerman/anglo-saxon shifted scandinavians.
That kind of admixture falls steadily when you move up through Sweden and Norway.

Danes are still scandos, no question, but most "pure" is probably the area around Sweden/Norway southern border.
I was implying the 'impurity' is usually understood as a Finnish/Saami influence. The Danes are super Germanic.

[Matxe92]

I was implying the 'impurity' is usually understood as a Finnish/Saami influence. The Danes are super Germanic.

Danes are the most pure scandinavians in that sense yes. I think your right. 100% North-Germanic.

[Bellbeaking]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/unioncross-png.114732

[Matxe92]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/unioncross-png.114732

Is that like a sort of scandinavian flag version of the UK flag? :D
Cross looks kinda moved to the side.

[Smitty]

Purest? Danes are clearly the most british/northgerman/anglo-saxon shifted scandinavians.
That kind of admixture falls steadily when you move up through Sweden and Norway.

Danes are still scandos, no question, but most "pure" is probably the area around Sweden/Norway southern border.

Is that admixture or just shifting, though? Being closer to Brits and Germans doesn't mean Danes necessarily have admixture from those regions. Do you think there was much mixing with North Germans? That would not surprise me.

[Matxe92]

Is that admixture or just shifting, though? Being closer to Brits and Germans doesn't mean Danes necessarily have admixture from those regions. Do you think there was much mixing with North Germans? That would not surprise me.

No i didn't mean we have admixture "from there" Genetically, recent evidence seem to suggest that danish vikings and the danelaw, that danes did not bring back foreigners to their homeland. Danes did settle the british isles.
But we were probably already similiar before the viking age, the vikings just added to that similiarity slightly. So no, admixture was not brought from britain to denmark. It's the other way around.

As for mixing with north germans.
I mean in the last 1000 years, we have been building forts on the border etc. to protect us from the germans. So relations have been defensive for the most part.
I actually think, the main gradient of north german vs. danish ethnics lies in the Schleswig region, which is now germany. Up from there it's pretty pure danish id say.

[TeutonicBoyars]

Goes to show that Scandinavians are much more related to northwestern euros than a lot of people like to say


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r u retarded?

Every fucking Brit on these kinds of forums loves to talk about "muh blonde viking ancestor :)" and "muh danelaw" and how "close" they are to Scandinavians. Imagine being so self-hating about your native iron-age Briton/Celtic origins that you need to cling to the fact that a few of your ancestors might have been rape children.

Anyway, incidentally I'm also for Zealand and my cluster, when removing Russian ancestry, is closer to Swedes first, then North Germans, then Norwegians. Other Danish kits I've monitored have followed similar suit. So genetically speaking, Danes are most similar to other Scandinavians IMO, and more in-depth DNA tests (i.e., ones that aren't carried out by freeware tools) confirm this as well, which I would be happy to reference upon request.

[Smitty]

No i didn't mean we have admixture "from there" Genetically, recent evidence seem to suggest that danish vikings and the danelaw, that danes did not bring back foreigners to their homeland. Danes did settle the british isles.
But we were probably already similiar before the viking age, the vikings just added to that similiarity slightly. So no, admixture was not brought from britain to denmark. It's the other way around.

As for mixing with north germans.
I mean in the last 1000 years, we have been building forts on the border etc. to protect us from the germans. So relations have been defensive for the most part.
I actually think, the main gradient of north german vs. danish ethnics lies in the Schleswig region, which is now germany. Up from there it's pretty pure danish id say.

That makes sense. In that case, Danes should be as purely Scandinavian as Norwegians. They're closer genetically to Britain only because Brits are part Danish.

In Schleswig-Holstein, haven't the two co-existed for centuries? I have ancestry from there, and it seems difficult to nail down what's German and what's Danish. Obviously, though, these were duchies and therefore different from the situation in Denmark proper.

[Matxe92]

r u retarded?

Every fucking Brit on these kinds of forums loves to talk about "muh blonde viking ancestor :)" and "muh danelaw" and how "close" they are to Scandinavians. Imagine being so self-hating about your native iron-age Briton/Celtic origins that you need to cling to the fact that a few of your ancestors might have been rape children.

Anyway, incidentally I'm also for Zealand and my cluster, when removing Russian ancestry, is closer to Swedes first, then North Germans, then Norwegians. Other Danish kits I've monitored have followed similar suit. So genetically speaking, Danes are most similar to other Scandinavians IMO, and more in-depth DNA tests (i.e., ones that aren't carried out by freeware tools) confirm this as well, which I would be happy to reference upon request.

First part was pretty hilarious to read haha, kudos to you.
Regarding the last part of your comment:
There are defintely varying degrees of more northwest eu related admix and then scandinavian admix in pure danes. I've seen some get a 50/50 but also some get 100% scandi.
For my case, 60-65% out of 75% of my danish ancestry is being recognized as scandinavian. So that's on the higher end for the most part.
Just for illustrative purposes, this is my original K36 map without the 25% russian removed, as you can see im also more closely related to swedes and norwegians. Even more so than the 100% dane sample.
https://i.imgur.com/zWcJFH8.png

[TeutonicBoyars]

First part was pretty hilarious to read haha, kudos to you.
Regarding the last part of your comment:
There are defintely varying degrees of more northwest eu related admix and then scandinavian admix in pure danes. I've seen some get a 50/50 but also some get 100% scandi.
For my case, 60-65% out of 75% of my danish ancestry is being recognized as scandinavian. So that's on the higher end for the most part.
Just for illustrative purposes, this is my original K36 map without the 25% russian removed, as you can see im also more closely related to swedes and norwegians. Even more so than the 100% dane sample.
https://i.imgur.com/zWcJFH8.png

The thing is, with your Polish ancestry not excluded, this actually makes more sense, and I think it might be an underlying issue with how the K36 similarity tool excludes selected groups. When you excluded whatever the EE sample, I think the took might have negatively impacted your Baltic/EE score, which alll Danes have to some degree by default, certainly much more than the Brits do, and I think that's what ultimately makes Scandinavians an identifiable and homogenous group when doing GEDMatch tests. In other words, artificially excluding part of your DNA which was majority Baltic/Slavic skewed the Danish result by perhaps removing too much of it, thus pulling your result towards the British Isles. I hope I explained that clearly, sorry if there's confusion.

[Matxe92]

That makes sense. In that case, Danes should be as purely Scandinavian as Norwegians. They're closer genetically to Britain only because Brits are part Danish.

In Schleswig-Holstein, haven't the two co-existed for centuries? I have ancestry from there, and it seems difficult to nail down what's German and what's Danish. Obviously, though, these were duchies and therefore different from the situation in Denmark proper.

Schleswig-Holstein has changed hands between danish rule and german rule through many years. So naturally it's gonna be difficult to tell what's german and what's danish since self-identity can change in 1 generations time, easily.

As i mentioned ethnically, Schleswig-Holstein is a gradient between ethnic danish and ethnic north german.

[Matxe92]

The thing is, with your Polish ancestry not excluded, this actually makes more sense, and I think it might be an underlying issue with how the K36 similarity tool excludes selected groups. When you excluded whatever the EE sample, I think the took might have negatively impacted your Baltic/EE score, which alll Danes have to some degree by default, certainly much more than the Brits do, and I think that's what ultimately makes Scandinavians an identifiable and homogenous group when doing GEDMatch tests. In other words, artificially excluding part of your DNA which was majority Baltic/Slavic skewed the Danish result by perhaps removing too much of it, thus pulling your result towards the British Isles. I hope I explained that clearly, sorry if there's confusion.

I agree. That's a pretty spot on describtion. But still, the edited version of my map, is still a reasonable result for a 100% dane. It did seem to remove a slight bit too much of what's catogorized as scandinavian. But other than that, it's alright.

[Aren]

Absolutely. I've never had any problem saying that. It's pretty obvious.
But i think more so, danes especially have much more in common with brits compared to norwegians and for sure swedes.

Depends on what Norwegians and what Swedes. Denmark has zero variation, Själland and Jylland are the same. Norway is pretty uniform too, with the exception of the very far north. Sweden is the most diverse of the three, but the southern 1/3(accounting for half of the Swedish population) is almost identical to Denmark and Norway.
The Norwegian average Tolan, the creator of this map used is a more northern average, different than the one used in Eurogenes K13 and K15.

[Bellbeaking]

r u retarded?

Every fucking Brit on these kinds of forums loves to talk about "muh blonde viking ancestor :)" and "muh danelaw" and how "close" they are to Scandinavians. Imagine being so self-hating about your native iron-age Briton/Celtic origins that you need to cling to the fact that a few of your ancestors might have been rape children.

lol, the Nordicism on these forums is retarded. But a lot of the users going about NW genes are non-Brits like me because its interesting.

Many non-Brits seem bizarrely angry and disappointing that there is significant genetic affinity between Britain and the Germanic regions, some users like 'bloody' had a literal obsession with this, making several accounts on several websites from studying websites to bodybuilding forums to post about Atlantic facade stuff.


That makes sense. In that case, Danes should be as purely Scandinavian as Norwegians. They're closer genetically to Britain only because Brits are part Danish..

nah, its just deep ancestry beaker/corded ware similarity, hence Ireland/Wales/North Scotland are also close. Angsax ancestry was 40% at best and a lot of that was Dutch Celto-Germanic mixes anyway.

The Dutch on the other hand, may be a better example of a population, who are actually mostly Iron age germanic transplants

[TeutonicBoyars]

lol, the Nordicism on these forums is retarded. But a lot of the users going about NW genes are non-Brits like me because its interesting.

Many non-Brits seem bizarrely angry and disappointing that there is significant genetic affinity between Britain and the Germanic regions, some users like 'bloody' had a literal obsession with this, making several accounts on several websites from studying websites to bodybuilding forums to post about Atlantic facade stuff.


Thing is, I don't have a problem with British Islanders showing x amount of genetic affinity with x continental or Germanic people. The issue I have is the sudden inexplicable fascination Brits have with their "Anglo-Scandinavian" ancestry, which as you and many others pointed out, is not nearly as significant as they would make it out to be.

The problem is that Englanders have historically looked at the continent with disgust or revulsion, a source of competition that was to be curbed or conquered, and for as much as they like to advocate for Germanic solidarity, they sure didn't engage their foes, Germanic or otherwise, in a very "Germanic" way. With the Spanish, they just paid some pirates to undercut their profits, with the French, they joined a coalition of forces (which they would turn on not long after) and struck at the last minute after they had been more or less broken by other forces. With the Russians, the God-Fearing Kingdom of England, the torch of the crusades, decided to join with the Ottomans so the Russians could not threaten threaten their global, or at the very least, oriental hegemony. And finally, with the Germans, their "Germanic" kin, well, they were very concerned about the industrial capacity of a united Germany might change the balance of power in Europe and the world forever, so they baited them into a war which then spiraled into more wars which eventually maimed, broke and crushed the German people so badly that I think they will literally hate themselves for all time, which, looking at the situation today, carries the disturbing possibility of the Germans as a people literally being erased from the roster of peoples.

So, even though there may have been some allusions to Teutonic solidarity in 19th century literature, I don't think a Germanic identity ever mattered to the Brits and it would not have mattered at all today. However one Adolf Hitler basically drove home that idea of the ethereal German, and being "Germanic" basically became the equivalent of being that kid in high school who shows up to school on his dad's motorcycle wearing jackboots - it became "edgy as fuck bro". If for some reason Hitler had advocated for a Celtic identity, internet kiddos would be talking about how based the Celts were and that there "weren't really that many Anglo Saxons in England".

It is for that reason I personally get annoyed when English kids try to paint themselves as vikings or some other shit; its cringey as fuck and they're just conforming to another painful trend; yesterday it was being a social outcast that listened to punk metal, today it's being a Germanic that listens to Nordic folk music, or Absurd if you're feeling really edgy. That in mind, I'd rather not have myself or the people close to be dragged into some painful fantasy of some islanders.

[Peterski]

The Dutch on the other hand, may be a better example of a population, who are actually mostly Iron age germanic transplants

Not really.

The Dutch are very diverse between regions, probably due to the fact that the Netherlands is located on the crossroads of every major migration and every major trade route since the Iron Age. The Danes are more homogeneous.

Southern Dutch for example are not more Germanic than South Germans (in fact Germans from former Rhaetic-speaking areas, so probably one of the least genetically Germanic subgroups of Germans, get South Dutch as their 1st closest pop in calcs like Eurogenes K13 and K15).

Ancient inhabitants of what is now the Netherlands were not exactly like modern Dutch, even though they most likely already spoke some form of Early Germanic. See my thread in the link below:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282060-Bronze-Age-Dutch-with-R1b-U106-1900-1650-BC

[Smitty]

lol, the Nordicism on these forums is retarded. But a lot of the users going about NW genes are non-Brits like me because its interesting.

Many non-Brits seem bizarrely angry and disappointing that there is significant genetic affinity between Britain and the Germanic regions, some users like 'bloody' had a literal obsession with this, making several accounts on several websites from studying websites to bodybuilding forums to post about Atlantic facade stuff.



nah, its just deep ancestry beaker/corded ware similarity, hence Ireland/Wales/North Scotland are also close. Angsax ancestry was 40% at best and a lot of that was Dutch Celto-Germanic mixes anyway.

The Dutch on the other hand, may be a better example of a population, who are actually mostly Iron age germanic transplants

Yeah, I only meant if Danes are closer to Brits than Norwegians are, it would be because of Danish migration to Britain. And you're right that it's even likelier just the Anglo-Saxon migration. Obviously, the English are not "part Danish." I knew that wording was going to get me in trouble.

[Aren]

Not really.

The Dutch are very diverse between regions, probably due to the fact that the Netherlands is located on the crossroads of every major migration and every major trade route since the Iron Age. The Danes are more homogeneous.

Southern Dutch for example are not more Germanic than South Germans (in fact Germans from former Rhaetic-speaking areas, so probably one of the least genetically Germanic subgroups of Germans, get South Dutch as their 1st closest pop in calcs like Eurogenes K13 and K15).

Ancient inhabitants of what is now the Netherlands were not exactly like modern Dutch, even though they most likely already spoke some form of Early Germanic. See my thread in the link below:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282060-Bronze-Age-Dutch-with-R1b-U106-1900-1650-BC

Dunno what you're talking about. This sample you're mentioning could easily be a modern day Dutchman.

Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 1.11 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.83 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 2.29 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 14.58 Pct
Fennoscandian 13.40 Pct
French 7.11 Pct
Iberian 19.05 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 16.24 Pct
North_Caucasian 0.25 Pct
North_Sea 19.73 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.21 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 2.16 Pct
West_Med -

[Aren]

Yeah, I only meant if Danes are closer to Brits than Norwegians are, it would be because of Danish migration to Britain. And you're right that it's even likelier just the Anglo-Saxon migration. Obviously, the English are not "part Danish." I knew that wording was going to get me in trouble.

Doesn't matter if Norwegians, Swedes or Danes migrated to Britain. During the Viking era they were genetically the same. And they still are, for the most part still the same.

[Smitty]

Doesn't matter if Norwegians, Swedes or Danes migrated to Britain. During the Viking era they were genetically the same. And they still are, for the most part still the same.

They're extraordinarily similar. But they're not identical. And are you saying they were even more similar in the past?

[Aren]

They're extraordinarily similar. But they're not identical. And are you saying they were even more similar in the past?

They are. I'm seriously questioning how you can predict Danes to be closer to Brits when like I just said the admixture during the Viking era wouldn't have mattered where it came from in Scandinavia.
There are probably some specific Anglo-Saxon subclades that Danes and Brits share today, but that's about it. When it comes to auDNA it doesn't really matter.

[Smitty]

They are. I'm seriously questioning how you can predict Danes to be closer to Brits when like I just said the admixture during the Viking era wouldn't have mattered where it came from in Scandinavia.
There are probably some specific Anglo-Saxon subclades that Danes and Brits share today, but that's about it. When it comes to auDNA it doesn't really matter.

I was responding initially to Matxe92, who said, "Danes are clearly the most british/northgerman/anglo-saxon shifted scandinavians." He could be wrong. I'm no geneticist, and I don't have a strong opinion on that.

[Matxe92]

I was responding initially to Matxe92, who said, "Danes are clearly the most british/northgerman/anglo-saxon shifted scandinavians." He could be wrong. I'm no geneticist, and I don't have a strong opinion on that.

Im describing what im seeing in the danish DNA results i've seen. Clearly a bigger frequency of danes getting british/northwest eu in their DNA tests versus the other scandinavian countries.

[Smitty]

Im describing what im seeing in the danish DNA results i've seen. Clearly a bigger frequency of danes getting british/northwest eu in their DNA tests versus the other scandinavian countries.

And I think that makes sense. Unless I'm mistaken, there are differences between Scandinavian ethnic groups, albeit small ones. I guess Aren disagrees.