German GEDmatch results

[Peterski]

Another point, there should be a good deal of interrelatedness among Germans. Maybe not so much between north and south (I'd be interested in that), but certainly east and west, since East Germany was settled by West Germans during the Ostsiedlung. Yes, they absorbed Slavic blood and were changed to a certain degree, but they were still related, which is for me an important part of the idea of nationhood.

Well, at least Ashkenazi Jews are definitely a nation because they are all 30th cousins:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/study-says-all-ashkenazi-jews-are-30th-cousins

"According to a new study, all Ashkenazi Jews are basically cousins. More specifically, Ashkenazi Jews are at least 30th cousins."

And that demographic miracle happened in Polish Rzeczpospolita as this study shows:

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/36/6/1162/5370180?login=true

"extreme population growth in the Eastern AJ (0.250 per generation)"

How come that Jews who remained in the Holy Roman Empire (Western AJ) could not achieve such rapid growth, but only 0.069 per generation?

BTW that fast population growth and very large numbers of children which Jewish families tended to have was noticed by contemporary Polish authors. Already in year 1598 nobleman Sebastian Miczynski noted the following about Jewish fertility in Poland:

"Jews marry at age 12, they don't fight in wars, they don't die from bad air, and so they breed like rabbits."

[J. Ketch]

The concept of nation predates the concept of genetic clustering.
The concept of nation originally referred to peoples of the same birth or origin. That is arguable for many modern 'nations', who are tied together more by politics than birth/origin. And just because the concept of genetic clustering didn't exist in the past, doesn't mean it didn't exist, it being a reflection of people's common blood, or lack thereof.

[Leto]

I admit it's rather arbitrary, but you have to draw the line somewhere regarding homogeneity - parts of Germany have vastly different ancestral origins, and are closer to foreign nations than to people within the borders of their own nation. It's worthy of distinction from the more homogenous, natural nations with essentially the same origins.

Spain & Portugal are fairly homogeneous in Europe and it's like 50 million people.
By the way, the Greeks are diverse too since you mentioned Italy and France. Some Greeks such as the Pontians don't even fall into any of the European clusters whereas some of the Northern Greeks are just slightly south of Bulgaria/Serbia.

[Peterski]

I admit it's rather arbitrary, but you have to draw the line somewhere regarding homogeneity - parts of Germany have vastly different ancestral origins, and are closer to foreign nations than to people within the borders of their own nation. It's worthy of distinction from the more homogenous, natural nations with essentially the same origins.

You are exaggerating IMO, there are just three main/major genetic clusters of Germans - Northwestern, Southwestern, and Eastern.

Of course there are also other minor clusters, for example as of year 1824 there were about 200,000 Lithuanians living in East Prussia [the total population of East Prussia was 1,080,000 at that time]. Autosomally they were probably just like Lithuanians in the Russian Empire, but unlike them they were Protestant. These Protestant Lithuanians became Germanized during the 19th century, but their DNA of course still persisted. In the 1939 census East Prussia had 2,490,000 inhabitants - so proportionally about 450,000 should be descended from Lithuanians, even though they were no longer counted as Lithuanians in censuses. During and after WW2 they all moved westward to Germany.

If there are still unmixed descendants of those Lithuanians living in Germany today, they are going to cluster autosomally with Balts. Of course if they mix with West Germans then children are going to be intermediate.

So actually some Germans can be autosomally as far east as Lithuanian-like (Czech-like is not their eastern limit).

[J. Ketch]

We should also keep in mind that Germany is terribly undersampled, both on Eurogenes and Global25. All the regions that should form a cline between the west and the east of the country are missing.

https://i.imgur.com/GQ6JP4O.png
It's a mistake to assume German regions form a smooth cline from North to South and East to West, I think Peterski will agree.


You are exaggerating IMO, there are just three main/major genetic clusters of Germans - Northwestern, Southwestern, and Eastern.Three is more than one. Arguably more if you're talking about ancestral origins rather than just clustering, near pure Germans (NW), Celto-Germans (South/West), Slavo-Germans (NE), Celto-Slavo-Germans (Austria and East Germany), and Balto-Germans from East Prussia.


Of course there are also other minor clusters, for example as of year 1824 there were about 200,000 Lithuanians living in East Prussia [the total population of East Prussia was 1,080,000 at that time]. Autosomally they were probably just like Lithuanians in the Russian Empire, but unlike them they were Protestant. These Protestant Lithuanians became Germanized during the 19th century, but their DNA of course still persisted. In the 1939 census East Prussia had 2,490,000 inhabitants - so proportionally about 450,000 should be descended from Lithuanians, even though they were no longer counted as Lithuanians in censuses. During and after WW2 they all moved westward to Germany.

If there are still unmixed descendants of those Lithuanians living in Germany today, they are going to cluster autosomally with Balts. Of course if they mix with West Germans then children are going to be intermediate.

So actually some Germans can be autosomally as far east as Lithuanian-like (Czech-like is not their eastern limit).
I know, I found that Colonial South Australian German kit that was similar to Poles.


1 Baltic 38.46
2 North_Atlantic 34.74
3 West_Med 11.92
4 West_Asian 6.49
5 East_Med 5.1
6 Siberian 1.49
7 South_Asian 0.85
8 Oceanian 0.51
9 Amerindian 0.44

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Polish 4.99
2 East_German 6.81
3 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.33
4 Ukrainian 7.65
5 Polish 7.76
6 Hungarian 7.89
7 Croatian 8.47
8 Austrian 8.95
9 Southwest_Finnish 9.47
10 North_Swedish 10.76
11 Russian_Smolensk 11.14
12 Southwest_Russian 11.48
13 Belorussian 11.75
14 Moldavian 11.75
15 Estonian_Polish 11.76
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.85
17 Finnish 13
18 Estonian 13.1
19 Swedish 14.29
20 Kargopol_Russian 14.43

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% South_Polish + 20.3% Orcadian @ 1.08
2 69.7% Ukrainian + 30.3% North_Dutch @ 1.08
3 81.3% South_Polish + 18.7% West_Scottish @ 1.17
4 80.6% South_Polish + 19.4% Irish @ 1.18
5 81.4% South_Polish + 18.6% Southwest_English @ 1.19
6 69.3% Ukrainian + 30.7% Danish @ 1.2
7 73.6% Ukrainian + 26.4% West_Scottish @ 1.22
8 71.7% Ukrainian + 28.3% Orcadian @ 1.24
9 66.1% Ukrainian + 33.9% North_German @ 1.24
10 72.7% Ukrainian + 27.3% Irish @ 1.28
11 80.1% South_Polish + 19.9% Southeast_English @ 1.32
12 78.4% South_Polish + 21.6% North_Dutch @ 1.37
13 69.4% Ukrainian + 30.6% Norwegian @ 1.42
14 65% Southwest_Russian + 35% Southwest_English @ 1.45
15 78.1% South_Polish + 21.9% Danish @ 1.49
16 78.2% South_Polish + 21.8% Norwegian @ 1.54
17 75.6% South_Polish + 24.4% North_German @ 1.56
18 72.1% Ukrainian + 27.9% Southeast_English @ 1.56
19 73.9% Ukrainian + 26.1% Southwest_English @ 1.6
20 59.6% Austrian + 40.4% Estonian @ 1.63
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_settlement_in_Australia

[Leto]

Born in MeckPomm, lives in Baden-Württemberg. This woman has dark hair and eyes, by the way

North_Atlantic 42.62 Pct
Baltic 30.64 Pct
West_Med 10.58 Pct
West_Asian 6.62 Pct
East_Med 4.99 Pct
Red_Sea 0.7 Pct
South_Asian 1.5 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.22 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.31 Pct
Northeast_African 0.84 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 5.15
2 East_German 6.29
3 Swedish 6.44
4 Austrian 6.81
5 Danish 7.61
6 North_Swedish 7.85
7 North_Dutch 8.11
8 Norwegian 8.38
9 West_German 8.86
10 South_Dutch 9.3
11 Orcadian 9.97
12 Southeast_English 10.28
13 Hungarian 10.29
14 Irish 10.92
15 West_Scottish 11.78
16 Southwest_English 12.17
17 Southwest_Finnish 13.98
18 South_Polish 14.54
19 French 15.15
20 Croatian 15.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.5% North_German + 25.5% South_Polish @ 1.34
2 77.7% North_German + 22.3% Ukrainian @ 1.34
3 77.1% North_German + 22.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.42
4 80.8% North_German + 19.2% Southwest_Russian @ 1.5
5 69.1% Danish + 30.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.59
6 84.6% North_German + 15.4% Erzya @ 1.64
7 62% Swedish + 38% Hungarian @ 1.66
8 73.7% Swedish + 26.3% Serbian @ 1.68
9 82.6% North_German + 17.4% Kargopol_Russian @ 1.71
10 81.2% North_German + 18.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.76
11 81.2% North_German + 18.8% Estonian_Polish @ 1.81
12 66.1% Danish + 33.9% South_Polish @ 1.85
13 77.6% Swedish + 22.4% Romanian @ 1.86
14 77.9% North_German + 22.1% Polish @ 1.87
15 55.3% Norwegian + 44.7% Hungarian @ 1.89
16 80.9% North_German + 19.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 1.9
17 51.5% Swedish + 48.5% Austrian @ 1.91
18 79.8% Swedish + 20.2% Bulgarian @ 1.92
19 67.3% Danish + 32.7% Croatian @ 1.92
20 70.1% Danish + 29.9% Ukrainian @ 1.93

Pretty Slav-blooded too. If only Gedmatch had existed 80 years ago, maybe the Nazis wouldn't have invaded us. So many lives would have been spared. Oh well :ohwell:

[Peterski]

I know, I found that Colonial South Australian German kit that was similar to Poles.

Here is a German kit with 100% ancestors from Klein Litauen sub-region of East Prussia [this area had ca. 200,000 Lithuanians as of 1824]:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/

This person has only a small German admixture (add ~14% German to Lithuanians and you get Belarusians as closest in Single Distances):

Eurogenes K15:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Belorussian 4.24
2 Estonian_Polish 5.27
3 Lithuanian 5.38
4 Russian_Smolensk 5.91
5 Polish 6.63
6 Estonian 7.22
7 Southwest_Russian 7.34
8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 8.18
9 South_Polish 9.05
10 Ukrainian 10.36
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.99
12 Kargopol_Russian 12.12
13 Finnish 14.1
14 East_Finnish 14.26
15 Southwest_Finnish 14.31
16 Erzya 14.43
17 La_Brana-1 15.04
18 Croatian 15.05
19 Hungarian 17.23
20 Austrian 17.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.2% Lithuanian + 12.8% Irish @ 3.58
2 87.5% Lithuanian + 12.5% West_Scottish @ 3.61
3 85.6% Lithuanian + 14.4% North_German @ 3.68
4 87.8% Lithuanian + 12.2% Southeast_English @ 3.74
5 86.9% Lithuanian + 13.1% Danish @ 3.76
6 88.9% Lithuanian + 11.1% Orcadian @ 3.85
7 91.8% Lithuanian + 8.2% French_Basque @ 3.87
8 87.6% Lithuanian + 12.4% North_Dutch @ 3.91
9 88.5% Lithuanian + 11.5% Southwest_English @ 3.93
10 79% Lithuanian + 21% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.95
11 88% Lithuanian + 12% South_Dutch @ 4.05
12 82.7% Belorussian + 17.3% Estonian @ 4.05
13 92.4% Belorussian + 7.6% La_Brana-1 @ 4.07
14 96.2% Belorussian + 3.8% Irish @ 4.1
15 96.3% Belorussian + 3.7% West_Scottish @ 4.11
16 77.1% Belorussian + 22.9% Lithuanian @ 4.11
17 97.1% Belorussian + 2.9% Orcadian @ 4.14
18 96.6% Belorussian + 3.4% Danish @ 4.14
19 96.7% Belorussian + 3.3% North_Dutch @ 4.15
20 94.1% Belorussian + 5.9% Southwest_Finnish @ 4.15

^^^
This person now lives in Germany (family resettled from East Prussia to present-day Germany in the 1940s).

[Leto]

I know, I found that Colonial South Australian German kit that was similar to Poles.

Holy shit, he's literally 70% Slavic (Ukrainian) and 30% Germanic (Dutch)!

[Peterski]

Pretty Slav-blooded too. If only Gedmatch had existed 80 years ago, maybe the Nazis wouldn't have invaded us.

Your Slavicness did not bother the Nazis when they were your allies in 1939-1941.

I think it was just a pretext. And of course they wanted Lebensraum, you had a lot.

[Mejgusu]

Are Russlanddeutsche mixed? I know some and they look sometimes very Russian for me. Nearly everyone are from Kazakhstan, most I know describe themselves as Russians(which has social reasons). I spent my high school years with playing durak with them and former Soviet citizens xd.

[Peterski]

Are Russlanddeutsche mixed?

If I'm not mistaken before WW2 it was rare for them to mix with Russians.

Only after WW2 those who remained in the Soviet Union started mixing.

[Smitty]

The concept of nation originally referred to peoples of the same birth or origin. That is arguable for many modern 'nations', who are tied together more by politics than birth/origin. And just because the concept of genetic clustering didn't exist in the past, doesn't mean it didn't exist, it being a reflection of people's common blood, or lack thereof.

Agreed. I think the modern German nation certainly falls under a broader definition of "nation" than many other nations, which is unsurprising since it was a unification of many states just a short 150 years ago. But I think an important question is, are all Germans related? Is there an ancestral strain that they all have in common? I think there is between Easterners and Westerners. I don't know about Northerners and Southerners. And then there are the recently Germanized, whose incorporation arguably took place during the broadening of "German" identity, i.e. the 19th century, when language and culture became increasingly important.

[Smitty]

Well, at least Ashkenazi Jews are definitely a nation because they are all 30th cousins:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/study-says-all-ashkenazi-jews-are-30th-cousins

"According to a new study, all Ashkenazi Jews are basically cousins. More specifically, Ashkenazi Jews are at least 30th cousins."

And that demographic miracle happened in Polish Rzeczpospolita as this study shows:

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/36/6/1162/5370180?login=true

"extreme population growth in the Eastern AJ (0.250 per generation)"

How come that Jews who remained in the Holy Roman Empire (Western AJ) could not achieve such rapid growth, but only 0.069 per generation?

BTW that fast population growth and very large numbers of children which Jewish families tended to have was noticed by contemporary Polish authors. Already in year 1598 nobleman Sebastian Miczynski noted the following about Jewish fertility in Poland:

"Jews marry at age 12, they don't fight in wars, they don't die from bad air, and so they breed like rabbits."

Yeah, I see Jews as a nation, albeit a scattered one. I have my doubts that Jewish fecundity in Poland was due to tolerance on the part of the Poles. I suspect it had to do with a generally more peasant culture there. I've been surprised in my genealogical research at how late German girls married and how many fewer children they had relative to other parts of Europe. Perhaps Germans were "civilized," pardon the word, and urbanized earlier, both of which naturally lead to a lower birthrate, which probably affected Jews in the area too. That said, I'm not particularly interested in whether or not Poles were anti-Semitic. Unlike you, I am not a Judeophile.

[Peterski]

But I think an important question is, are all Germans related? Is there an ancestral strain that they all have in common? I think there is between Easterners and Westerners. I don't know about Northerners and Southerners.

Yes there is an ancestral strain that they all have in common - they all have Germanic admixture.

But Southerners got their Germanic input in Late Antiquity, while Easterners in the Middle Ages.

And Northwestern Germany is the original territory from which ancestors of Germans expanded.


And then there are the recently Germanized, whose incorporation arguably took place during the broadening of "German" identity, i.e. the 19th century, when language and culture became increasingly important.

Yes but probably relatively few in numbers compared to the total (Germans are dozens of millions).

[Leto]

Germans were deported to Kazakhstan by Joseph Stalin right when the war with the Soviet Union began. Amd unlike some other ethnic groups they were not officially allowed to return after Stalin died in 1953. So basically between 1941 and 1991 they had to live in KZ (and Kirgizia too sometimes) which was like a melting pot region of resettled and deported peoples. Around the time of the Perestroika (1985-91) they began to immigrate to Germany. Siberian Germans (not deported, a different settlement) also joined them. Generally it's the older, the purer. People below 30 are often 25% German if not less. No kidding.

[Smitty]

Generally it's the older, the purer.

The case pretty much everywhere.

[Peterski]

In case of France there is also an ancestral strain that they all have in common, but this time it is Celtic.

[Leto]

The case pretty much everywhere.
Well, when Soviet Jews started making Aliyah to Israel in the late 80s, like 90+% were rabbinically Jewish but by 2000 the percentage dropped below 50%. I think it might be similar with Volga Germans. A trickle of immigration continues to this day (still 150,000 self-reported or state-recorded Germans live in KZ and 200-300,000 in Russia).

[J. Ketch]

Agreed. I think the modern German nation certainly falls under a broader definition of "nation" than many other nations, which is unsurprising since it was a unification of many states just a short 150 years ago. But I think an important question is, are all Germans related? Is there an ancestral strain that they all have in common? I think there is between Easterners and Westerners. I don't know about Northerners and Southerners. And then there are the recently Germanized, whose incorporation arguably took place during the broadening of "German" identity, i.e. the 19th century, when language and culture became increasingly important.
It's appropriate that ethnic Germans call Germany the Fatherland (or they used to), because their genetic relationship is a mostly paternal one. For the nations I'm referring to as 'proper', it refers to both a common paternal + maternal ancestry, that results in being genetically very close. (maybe coincidentally Anglosphere nations refer to Britain as the mother country by contrast, and Britannia is personified in female form).

[Insuperable]

From Czech, to Scandinavian, to British, to French. More of an Empire with a common tongue than a proper nation, no offence. (Same for the French and Italians).

What country on the continent surrounded by neighbours doesn't range from one neighbour to another?

[Leto]

Some guy with the surname Nürnberger which literally means from Nuremberg. May be Southern German indeed.

North_Atlantic 40.73 Pct
Baltic 27.24 Pct
West_Med 14.71 Pct
West_Asian 4.22 Pct
East_Med 11.91 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.03 Pct
Oceanian 0.16 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Austrian 5.93
2 West_German 6.19
3 South_Dutch 7.33
4 East_German 7.46
5 Hungarian 9.1
6 North_German 9.95
7 French 10.33
8 Southeast_English 10.96
9 Danish 11.66
10 North_Dutch 11.91
11 Orcadian 12.69
12 Swedish 12.89
13 Serbian 13.35
14 Norwegian 13.4
15 Southwest_English 13.45
16 Irish 14.04
17 West_Scottish 14.56
18 North_Swedish 14.68
19 Croatian 14.73
20 Moldavian 16.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.4% Southeast_English + 44.6% Serbian @ 3.78
2 63.8% West_German + 36.2% Hungarian @ 4.15
3 58.2% North_Swedish + 41.8% North_Italian @ 4.15
4 55.6% Hungarian + 44.4% Southeast_English @ 4.18
5 57.4% South_Dutch + 42.6% Hungarian @ 4.21
6 84% West_German + 16% Belorussian @ 4.32
7 52.2% Austrian + 47.8% West_German @ 4.34
8 84.2% West_German + 15.8% Estonian_Polish @ 4.34
9 71.4% French + 28.6% Belorussian @ 4.35
10 81.1% West_German + 18.9% Ukrainian @ 4.35
11 78.9% West_German + 21.1% South_Polish @ 4.36
12 51.4% Orcadian + 48.6% Serbian @ 4.39
13 84% West_German + 16% Southwest_Russian @ 4.39
14 76.3% West_German + 23.7% Croatian @ 4.39
15 58.3% West_German + 41.7% East_German @ 4.49
16 61.8% Southeast_English + 38.2% Romanian @ 4.49
17 65.6% Southeast_English + 34.4% Bulgarian @ 4.51
18 82.3% West_German + 17.7% Polish @ 4.52
19 84.6% West_German + 15.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.54
20 63.1% North_Swedish + 36.9% Tuscan @ 4.54

[Leto]

From Novosibirsk, Russia with a German surname. Looks like one of the "returnees" I just described above. And it's not even the most extreme case.

North_Atlantic 31.58 Pct
Baltic 37.21 Pct
West_Med 12.71 Pct
West_Asian 6.62 Pct
East_Med 5.86 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.23 Pct
East_Asian 0.88 Pct
Siberian 2.4 Pct
Amerindian 1.03 Pct
Oceanian 1.3 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.17 Pct

Distance to: K.
3.37587026 Slovak
3.49977142 Czech
5.25851690 Hungarian_North
5.43934739 Ukrainian_Galicia
5.64679555 Polish_South
5.76748645 Slovenian
5.89548132 Sorb
6.13911231 Lemko_Poland
6.18981421 Croat_North
6.71973958 Polish_Lesser_Poland

Target: K.
Distance: 1.1953% / 1.19534676 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.1 German_East
25.2 Polish_Silesia
21.1 Lemko_Poland
5.9 Komi
1.9 Altai
0.8 Papuan

Target: K.
Distance: 2.1852% / 2.18516496 | ADC: 0.5x RC
63.5 Czech
28.1 Slovak
5.1 Komi
3.3 Bashkir

Target: K.
Distance: 2.3505% / 2.35048477 | R2P
56.9 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
43.1 Swiss_French

[rothaer]

I admit it's rather arbitrary, but you have to draw the line somewhere regarding homogeneity - parts of Germany have vastly different ancestral origins, and are closer to foreign nations than to people within the borders of their own nation. It's worthy of distinction from the more homogenous, natural nations with essentially the same origins.

Okay, I just remark that Europe roughly has a linear bio-geographic cline. The smaller you make a unit, the more homogenous it will be and vice versa. Also, whatever unit you chose, if you chose an individual from close to the border he will be genetically closer to an individual on the other side of the border than to geographically farther away individuals within the unit. So that circumstance will whatever unit show. I say this just as principal conclusion out of such a mentioned cline.


I guess you could say that 'British people' have a notable cline, by which I assume you mean notable genetic difference, but 1. it's not nearly as big as what exists in Germany, France and Italy, and 2. I don't consider the 'British' or the United Kingdom a proper nation either, it is a recent political invention, more of a state-nation like aforesaid countries, not a true nation-state. English, Scots, Welsh and Irish are the real, ancient nations with a great deal of homogeneity.

Okay, with that measure you will inevitable restrict a "nation proper" to a certain size.


I never claimed Australia is a proper nation in the European sense. It is a different animal altogether, another state-nation, built around an Anglo-Celtic ethnic/cultural nucleus.

But it would fulfill, though big, your requirement for a "nation proper" in the aspect of homogeneity.


Not necessarily, just common origins and strong overlap. I mean all of Northwest+Central-West Europe has a 'cline', and arguably most of Europe too. If the EU begins federalising and forcing everyone to speak a common language, in 100 years is it a proper nation, if Europeans start identifying as such?

If I skip all my rejecting comments on this scenario and strictly stick to your theoretical question, I'd answer that with: yes, I think so.

We will likely also deal with the topic of relatedness in this conext. But I'd like to add another aspect of a people ("nation proper") that I think is important and that's the aspect of a reproductive community (Fortpflanzungsgemeinschaft). Imo this is maybe even the most important aspect of a people (nation proper). If you run a reproduction community for quite a while this will end up in a mutual relatedness.

[Roy]

Born in MeckPomm, lives in Baden-Württemberg. This woman has dark hair and eyes, by the way

North_Atlantic 42.62 Pct
Baltic 30.64 Pct
West_Med 10.58 Pct
West_Asian 6.62 Pct
East_Med 4.99 Pct
Red_Sea 0.7 Pct
South_Asian 1.5 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.22 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.31 Pct
Northeast_African 0.84 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 5.15
2 East_German 6.29
3 Swedish 6.44
4 Austrian 6.81
5 Danish 7.61
6 North_Swedish 7.85
7 North_Dutch 8.11
8 Norwegian 8.38
9 West_German 8.86
10 South_Dutch 9.3
11 Orcadian 9.97
12 Southeast_English 10.28
13 Hungarian 10.29
14 Irish 10.92
15 West_Scottish 11.78
16 Southwest_English 12.17
17 Southwest_Finnish 13.98
18 South_Polish 14.54
19 French 15.15
20 Croatian 15.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.5% North_German + 25.5% South_Polish @ 1.34
2 77.7% North_German + 22.3% Ukrainian @ 1.34
3 77.1% North_German + 22.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.42
4 80.8% North_German + 19.2% Southwest_Russian @ 1.5
5 69.1% Danish + 30.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.59
6 84.6% North_German + 15.4% Erzya @ 1.64
7 62% Swedish + 38% Hungarian @ 1.66
8 73.7% Swedish + 26.3% Serbian @ 1.68
9 82.6% North_German + 17.4% Kargopol_Russian @ 1.71
10 81.2% North_German + 18.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.76
11 81.2% North_German + 18.8% Estonian_Polish @ 1.81
12 66.1% Danish + 33.9% South_Polish @ 1.85
13 77.6% Swedish + 22.4% Romanian @ 1.86
14 77.9% North_German + 22.1% Polish @ 1.87
15 55.3% Norwegian + 44.7% Hungarian @ 1.89
16 80.9% North_German + 19.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 1.9
17 51.5% Swedish + 48.5% Austrian @ 1.91
18 79.8% Swedish + 20.2% Bulgarian @ 1.92
19 67.3% Danish + 32.7% Croatian @ 1.92
20 70.1% Danish + 29.9% Ukrainian @ 1.93

Pretty Slav-blooded too. If only Gedmatch had existed 80 years ago, maybe the Nazis wouldn't have invaded us. So many lives would have been spared. Oh well :ohwell:

Russians themselves (or original Russian Jews communists + Georgian Stalin) were responsible for way more deaths than invading Germans though.

[Insuperable]

Russians themselves (or original Russian Jews communists + Georgian Stalin) were responsible for way more deaths than invading Germans though.

It's embarrassing (very low) what Russians did to Poles during WW2. Even Polish Jews ran towards the West to be captured by Nazis.

[rothaer]

Another point, there should be a good deal of interrelatedness among Germans. Maybe not so much between north and south (I'd be interested in that), but certainly east and west, since East Germany was settled by West Germans during the Ostsiedlung. Yes, they absorbed Slavic blood and were changed to a certain degree, but they were still related, which is for me an important part of the idea of nationhood.

I can connect to that aspect. I'm not so keen on emphasizing the Germanic narrative, because this is mostly overrated in it's genetical weight. But actually there is an ancestral commonality to the whole German people (except maybe Upper Silesians that where Polish speakers at abt. 1900 AD) in the form of the Germanics, who brought and distributed the language. Besides this many Germans are also connected by Celtic or Slavic ancestry, but these ties are not nationwide. But the Germanics are. To make an estimate, this Germanic nationwide commonality will not exceed 20% genetically, which means that the parts of the German people with the least proportion of Germanic ancestry will not exceed 20% Germanic ancestry.

As for interrelatedness it has to be added that the German people currently is a reproductive community and was this also centuries ago. This means intermarriages throughout the German people. I do ancestry research and do now have 1000+ known ancestors. I attach a map with birth or living locations from the last 500 years. I presuppose that it's approximately known where the German people lived on this map. Most of the locations in Central Poland refer to German settlers of Pomeranian stock. However it's visible that I have ancestral ties all over the area of the German people. Small parts are even coming from Switzerland, South Tirol, Austria and Elsaß. I will of course not be the only one with such ancestry. So also in the last centuries there is by the fact that the German people is a reproductive community caused an additional geneaological interrelatedness.

https://i.imgur.com/iwEjFM3.jpg

[Peterski]

Russians themselves (or original Russian Jews communists + Georgian Stalin) were responsible for way more deaths than invading Germans though.

I don't think so - for example my family only had casualties caused by the Germans.

I guess it would have to be counted family by family. There has been such an effort:

https://straty.pl/ - everyone can submit their own dead relatives here

[Leto]

Russians themselves (or original Russian Jews communists + Georgian Stalin) were responsible for way more deaths than invading Germans though.
Listen, my comment wasn't about what is worse - Nazism vs Communism. Don't try to pull your Russophobia on me or I will avoid you and won't engage with you. For example I stopped talking to P. months ago for other reasons but one thing I've barely gotten from him is Russophobia. His attitude towards Germany is none of my business. I'm positive towards both countries, probably more pro-German than many Germans themselves today.

[Peterski]

one thing I've barely gotten from him is Russophobia.

Poles who are Russophobic are the ones who haven't read (or read but did not understand) anything about Roman Dmowski. While Dmowski had no love for Russia (it is not true that he was a Russophile), he understood that Germany is a greater, existential, threat to Poland.

Russia is also a threat, but not an existential one.

Dmowski's choice between Russia vs. Germany was a choice between lesser evil vs. greater evil.

Accusing him of Russophilia is ridiculous.

[Leto]

Let's not turn this thread into something unrelated! I probably shouldn't have mentioned the Nazis, my fault.

[Peterski]

I can connect to that aspect. I'm not so keen on in emphasizing the Germanic narrative, because this is mostly overrated in it's weight anyhow. But actually there is an ancestral commonality to the whole German people (except maybe Upper Silesians that where Polish speakers at abt. 1900 AD)

What about the Ruhrpolen (who came from all of eastern provinces)? There were over 450,000 of them in 1910 (and probably already some were assimilated by that time, while others continued coming later). Add also Lithuanians & Masurians from East Prussia, Wends from eastern Pommern.

[Roy]

Listen, my comment wasn't about what is worse - Nazism vs Communism. Don't try to pull your Russophobia on me or I will avoid you and won't engage with you. For example I stopped talking to P. months ago for other reasons but one thing I've barely gotten from him is Russophobia. His attitude towards Germany is none of my business. I'm positive towards both countries, probably more pro-German than many Germans themselves today.


Errrr ... what? :confused: I've just mentioned the reality of Soviet Russia which is true. Where do you see any Russophobia? Russians killed or starved to death directly or indirectly way more Russian citizens than Germans did. It is you who distorted my message trying to overwrite your own interpretation.


Such (political) convictions set the stage for decades of murder on an industrial scale. In total, no fewer than 20 million Soviet citizens were put to death by the regime or died as a direct result of its repressive policies

[Roy]

I don't think so - for example my family only had casualties caused by the Germans.

I guess it would have to be counted family by family. There has been such an effort:

https://straty.pl/ - everyone can submit their own dead relatives here

I did not mean Poland though, but Russia.

[rothaer]

It's appropriate that ethnic Germans call Germany the Fatherland (or they used to), because their genetic relationship is a mostly paternal one. (...)

Left beside the cause for the German term Vaterland, why do you consider that the relationship would be mostly paternally? It would make sense as migrations regularly are more carried out by men than by women and there was an expansion of Germanics within later German people emergence area. But do you have facts that support that, f. i. that there is a bigger commonality in Y DNA than in mtDNA among Germans compared to among Englishmen?

[J. Ketch]

But it would fulfill, though big, your requirement for a "nation proper" in the aspect of homogeneity.
Not really, because the 'Australian nation' includes people of many different ethnicities/origins, and not even the ethnic core of British/Irish descended people is what I would consider a true nation , for the same reason I don't consider British in the UK a proper nation.



If I skip all my rejecting comments on this scenario and strictly stick to your theoretical question, I'd answer that with: yes, I think so.

We will likely also deal with the topic of relatedness in this conext. But I'd like to add another aspect of a people ("nation proper") that I think is important and that's the aspect of a reproductive community (Fortpflanzungsgemeinschaft). Imo this is maybe even the most important aspect of a people (nation proper). If you run a reproduction community for quite a while this will end up in a mutual relatedness.
OK, we just have a different view on nationhood then. Fair enough. I call these existing countries nations anyway, just of different categories.

[Leto]

Errrr ... what? :confused: I've just mentioned the reality of Soviet Russia which is true. Where do you see any Russophobia? Russians killed or starved to death directly or indirectly way more Russian citizens than Germans did.
Soviet is not the same thing as Russian. Most of the victims were Russians/Slavs themselves. The communist elite before WW2 had a lot of non-Russians (vastly overrepresented). Including some Poles for that matter. But mostly other groups.

That original post of mine was about WW2 specifically. Not about the 20th century in general.

[Peterski]

It would make sense as migrations regularly are more carried out by men than by women

Depends on times. There is no such rule IMO.

In ancient times entire tribes usually migrated. When the Cimbri and Teutones invaded Rome, it was a huge hord with 50% men 50% women (but the latter mostly stayed behind rather, maybe only some took part in battle - of course later they were slaughtered anyway by victorious legions).

I don't know if your "regularly" even applies to modern times. F.i. English settlement in North America was gender-balanced.

[Roy]

Soviet is not the same thing as Russian. Most of the victims were Russians/Slavs themselves. The communist elite before WW2 had a lot of non-Russians (vastly overrepresented). Including some Poles for that matter. But mostly other groups.

That original post of mine was about WW2 specifically. Not about the 20th century in general.


Ok, I get you now. :) Btw. I did mention in my first reply that the majority of early communists were Jews, and not even Slavs.

[Leto]

Ok, I get you. :) Btw. I did mention in my first reply that the majority of early communists were Jews, and not even Slavs.
All right. A bit of overreaction on my part and I shouldn't have mentioned the Nazis. Although I do find it fascinating that Germany and Austria have so much Slavic influence genetically. IMO the Dutch are more Germanic than Germans themselves!

[J. Ketch]

Left beside the cause for the German term Vaterland, why do you consider that the relationship would be mostly paternally? It would make sense as migrations regularly are more carried out by men than by women and there was an expansion of Germanics within later German people emergence area. But do you have facts that support that, f. i. that there is a bigger commonality in Y DNA than in mtDNA among Germans compared to among Englishmen?
I don't have comparative stats at hand, forgive me, and I wasn't referring specifically to haplogroups, but it's fairly logical to say that when you compare Germany to England - in England just as in Germany you have a majority Germanic paternal ancestry, but among all Englishmen the maternal ancestry is overwhelmingly from the same native Celtic Britons. In Germany the maternal ancestry will vary from mostly Germanic in the Northwest, mostly Celtic in the Southwest, and mostly Slavic in the East. I could be wrong but that's what it seems to be, and that's reflected in the autosomal differences. With regards to Great Britain as a whole, as opposed to Germany, the main thing that links English, Welsh and Scottish, and the British abroad, is their common Brittonic maternal origins, while Germans are linked by their common paternal origins. So you could make an argument that's why Britishness is associated maternally (mother country), and personified with the female Britannia. As an aside the Australian national anthem (long version) refers to England as Fatherland, in contrast to how Australians commonly call Britain the mother country. The Welsh national anthem is also 'Land of My Fathers'.

[rothaer]

What about the Ruhrpolen (who came from all of eastern provinces)? There were over 450,000 of them in 1910 (and probably already some were assimilated by that time, while others continued coming later). Add also Lithuanians & Masurians from East Prussia, Wends from eastern Pommern.

We talk about the German people today and whether it is connected by common ancestry or not. There are no Ruhrpolen today from that time. If they have mixed with local Germans their German descendants have part in the same common German ties. And if a Pole comes today to the Ruhr area, it's no German and thus not of this topic.

You are making these overview-like and general discussions more complicated than they are. Precaustionary: Pls do not ask what is if there still is one individual left that has Ruhrpolen ancestry only.

[Peterski]

Not really, because the 'Australian nation' includes people of many different ethnicities/origins

I thought that the core are the "Anglo-Celts" ??? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Celtic_Australians

At some point nearly entire population was either Anglo-Celts or Aborigines. Only later other groups came?


There are no Ruhrpolen today from that time.

But there are still Germans who are descended 100% from Ruhrpolen (all 4 grandparents were Ruhrpolen).


Pls do not ask what is if there still is one individual left that has Ruhrpolen ancestry only.

I'm sure there must be many (thousands).

[Leto]

Creoda seems to identify more with England than Ireland. It may seem trival here now but he would have been kicked out of a pub in Ireland some decades ago! :irishdancer:

[rothaer]

While Dmowski had no love for Russia (...), he understood that Germany is a greater, existential, threat to Poland.
Russia is also a threat, but not an existential one.
Dmowski's choice between Russia vs. Germany was a choice between lesser evil vs. greater evil.

You'll just get rid of the loot. So it's no existential threat. No German is interested in Poland proper.

But your big brother could be. After he will have given back Königsberg to us, we will never forget this reconsiling favor and be enduringly very thankful and deeply in his debt. We will agree to all and we will have full understanding for his need for Poland proper and Gdynia as a new Baltic Sea port. And we will underline the attractiveness and beauty especially of Wyrzysk and Poznan. Lukashenka he will incorporate on his way. If Lukashenka not even will ask for it himself.

[J. Ketch]

I thought that the core are the "Anglo-Celts" ??? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Celtic_Australians

At some point nearly entire population was either Anglo-Celts or Aborigines. Only later other groups came?

They are, like I said. Increasingly less demographically unfortunately, but still culturally.

In the late 18th century and Early 19th century the population was pretty much only Anglo-Celtic and Aboriginals, as it was mostly just an unprosperous backwater penal colony, but from about the Mid 19th century onwards some continental Europeans started to arrive and mix in with the Anglo-Celtic population (that South Australian German I showed could trace all their ancestry back to mid 19th century South Australia), and some Chinese, largely because of the Gold Rush in my home state of Victoria in the 1850s. It wasn't until after World War II that large amounts of continental Europeans and non-NW Euro's began to be admitted, because the government took the view that Australia needed a larger population to resist the Yellow Peril/Communists in the future.

[rothaer]

(...)

Btw. some days ago I read about the first European permanent residents in Australia:

"Loos and a cabin boy, Jan Pelgrom de Bye, who were considered only minor offenders, were marooned on mainland Australia, and were never heard of again. This made them the first Europeans to have permanently lived on the Australian continent.[22] This location is now thought to be Wittecarra Creek near Kalbarri, Western Australia, though another suggestion is nearby Port Gregory.[10]":

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavia_(1628_ship)

[Peterski]

But your big brother could be.

I don't think so - current eastern border of Poland is similar as 1795 border of Russian 3rd partition as well as Ribbentrop-Molotov line of 1939.

But the point of existential threat was more about ethnic & biological existence, not political.

Dmowski thought that Russians would never be able to assimilate or to exterminate Poles, even if they managed to conquer and rule Poland.

Dmowski also knew that ethnic Polish lands once used to be up to the Oder-Neisse line and Germans had managed to Germanize a lot of land.

[rothaer]

I don't think so - current eastern border of Poland is similar as 1795 border of Russian 3rd partition as well as Ribbentrop-Molotov line of 1939.

Well, both my maternal grandparents lived in Lodz when it was Russia. Хорошо. Also your big brother could come to remember that. :P

[Peterski]

You'll just get rid of the loot.

How? Through peaceful means? :confused:

Because if you try and lose yet another world war, I'm sure Kaufman's advice will finally be considered seriously:

http://ihr.org/books/kaufman/perish.shtml

[and by the way, Germanic tribes came out of these deep forests in the video, everything else is just their loot]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVLGwTggO8U

Roman Empire fell & German Empire also fell. You can now either survive as 2nd-class power, or try stupid things.

Today Germany is in the same situation, in which Carthage was between 2nd & 3rd Punic Wars. Still strong, but so vulnerable at the same time.

Also interesting is that Jews outlived both of these empires, even though both empires tried to destroy them! :eek:

[Peterski]

After he will have given back Königsberg to us

They will never give it back to you. Why would they? The only territory that Russians ever voluntarily gave to someone was Crimea - to their brotherly Ukrainian nation. But they changed their mind few decades later. :rolleyes:

If you want Kaliningrad back you should invade it, and also invade Crimea and help Ukraine. After you capture Crimea from the Russians, Ukrainians will let you keep it, and you will rename it Gotengau and Germanize.

[rothaer]

How? Through peaceful means? :confused:

No, by a short war. But not by Germany. With the help of the Russians it was taken and with the help of the Russians it will be given back. They will make it free, give it back and keep the rest and get international support for that. Of course only after a respective agreement between Russia and the NATO, so there is no risk for any wider conflict or nuclear engagement. In contrast, that agreement will satisfy all sides and secure peace. Russia will obligate itself to not help China in a possible conflict with the USA. That is much more important to the USA then messing with Russia because of Poland, Lithuania, Georgia or whatever other ex Soviet sphere state or non-state.

[rothaer]

del

[Peterski]

No, by a short war. But not by Germany. With the help of the Russians it was taken and with the help of the Russians it will be given back. They will make it free, give it back and keep the rest and get international support for that. Of course only after a respective agreement between Russia and the NATO, so there is no risk for any wider conflict or nuclear engagement. In contrast, that agreement will satisfy all sides and secure peace. Russia will obligate itself to not help China in a possible conflict with the USA. That is much more important to the USA then messing with Russia because of Poland, Lithuania, Georgia or whatever other ex Soviet sphere state or non-state.

This scenario is never going to happen, Germans are delusional if they hope for it. Russians are aware that Slavic should be spoken as far west as the Elbe & Hamburg.

In just 12 years of national socialism you wasted several centuries of Drang nach Osten. After one more war you will waste all 1000 years of Drang nach Osten (which means Re-Slavicization of the Elbe-Oder region).

If you ask for Russian help you already show weakness. But it is indeed true that Germans were never able to defeat Poland without Russian help (there is not a single instance in history). Maybe the Teutonic Order should have asked for Russian help? :rolleyes:

BTW, one of the purposes of the Oder-Neisse line is to prevent a short war as you called it. This border is very defensible. You can no longer invade Poland from three sides (North, West and South) like you did in 1939.

=====

Germany is like an antisocial 13-year old bully boy in a school who thinks he is superior to other kids and who is surprised that he gets expelled from school for severely beating other kids. Absolute crybaby with total lack of capability to take responsibility for own actions. Deportation of Germans was a direct consequence of their actions in 1933-45.

[rothaer]

(...)

For prevent Tomenable from already now getting KIA by a heart attack, we better return to the thread topic of German GEDmatch results. :thumb001:

[Leto]

Some guy with the surname Nürnberger which literally means from Nuremberg. May be Southern German indeed.

North_Atlantic 40.73 Pct
Baltic 27.24 Pct
West_Med 14.71 Pct
West_Asian 4.22 Pct
East_Med 11.91 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.03 Pct
Oceanian 0.16 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Austrian 5.93
2 West_German 6.19
3 South_Dutch 7.33
4 East_German 7.46
5 Hungarian 9.1
6 North_German 9.95
7 French 10.33
8 Southeast_English 10.96
9 Danish 11.66
10 North_Dutch 11.91
11 Orcadian 12.69
12 Swedish 12.89
13 Serbian 13.35
14 Norwegian 13.4
15 Southwest_English 13.45
16 Irish 14.04
17 West_Scottish 14.56
18 North_Swedish 14.68
19 Croatian 14.73
20 Moldavian 16.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.4% Southeast_English + 44.6% Serbian @ 3.78
2 63.8% West_German + 36.2% Hungarian @ 4.15
3 58.2% North_Swedish + 41.8% North_Italian @ 4.15
4 55.6% Hungarian + 44.4% Southeast_English @ 4.18
5 57.4% South_Dutch + 42.6% Hungarian @ 4.21
6 84% West_German + 16% Belorussian @ 4.32
7 52.2% Austrian + 47.8% West_German @ 4.34
8 84.2% West_German + 15.8% Estonian_Polish @ 4.34
9 71.4% French + 28.6% Belorussian @ 4.35
10 81.1% West_German + 18.9% Ukrainian @ 4.35
11 78.9% West_German + 21.1% South_Polish @ 4.36
12 51.4% Orcadian + 48.6% Serbian @ 4.39
13 84% West_German + 16% Southwest_Russian @ 4.39
14 76.3% West_German + 23.7% Croatian @ 4.39
15 58.3% West_German + 41.7% East_German @ 4.49
16 61.8% Southeast_English + 38.2% Romanian @ 4.49
17 65.6% Southeast_English + 34.4% Bulgarian @ 4.51
18 82.3% West_German + 17.7% Polish @ 4.52
19 84.6% West_German + 15.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.54
20 63.1% North_Swedish + 36.9% Tuscan @ 4.54
I've confirmed, he is actually from Bavaria or rather Mittelfranken. A legit Southern German. Though his Y DNA is very non-Aryan: https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2215/

His results with higher SNP raw data plus his moms'

North_Atlantic 41.82 Pct
Baltic 25.76 Pct
West_Med 12.85 Pct
West_Asian 4.94 Pct
East_Med 13.23 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.09 Pct
Amerindian 0.73 Pct
Oceanian 0.57 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 44.06 Pct
Baltic 24.55 Pct
West_Med 14.36 Pct
West_Asian 5.12 Pct
East_Med 8.69 Pct
Red_Sea 1.33 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.46 Pct
Oceanian 0.78 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.64 Pct

[Jana]

I've confirmed, he is actually from Bavaria or rather Mittelfranken. A legit Southern German. Though his Y DNA is very non-Aryan: https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2215/

His results with higher SNP raw data plus his moms'

North_Atlantic 41.82 Pct
Baltic 25.76 Pct
West_Med 12.85 Pct
West_Asian 4.94 Pct
East_Med 13.23 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.09 Pct
Amerindian 0.73 Pct
Oceanian 0.57 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 44.06 Pct
Baltic 24.55 Pct
West_Med 14.36 Pct
West_Asian 5.12 Pct
East_Med 8.69 Pct
Red_Sea 1.33 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.46 Pct
Oceanian 0.78 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.64 Pct

grandparents are from there too? If yes, I will add to German samples list.

[Jana]

From Lower Franconia

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 37.54
2 Baltic 24.83
3 West_Med 17.69
4 East_Med 11.87
5 West_Asian 6.24
6 Amerindian 1.3
7 Red_Sea 0.53

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Austrian 6.46
2 West_German 6.79
3 South_Dutch 8.04
4 French 8.6
5 East_German 8.67
6 Hungarian 9.04
7 Serbian 10.67
8 North_German 12.86
9 Southeast_English 13.34
10 Romanian 13.46
11 Croatian 14.03
12 Spanish_Cataluna 14.3
13 Moldavian 14.54
14 Portuguese 14.7
15 Danish 14.74
16 North_Dutch 14.84
17 Spanish_Galicia 14.85
18 Orcadian 15.21
19 Southwest_English 15.3
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 15.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.7% Hungarian + 38.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.26
2 69.1% Hungarian + 30.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.38
3 73.2% Austrian + 26.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.49
4 65.2% Hungarian + 34.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.55
5 73.7% Austrian + 26.3% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.67
6 51.4% French + 48.6% Hungarian @ 2.7
7 73.1% Austrian + 26.9% North_Italian @ 2.72
8 75.7% Austrian + 24.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.76
9 66.9% Hungarian + 33.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.77
10 55.1% Southeast_English + 44.9% Bulgarian @ 2.79
11 70.7% Austrian + 29.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.79
12 62.8% French + 37.2% Croatian @ 2.79
13 66% Hungarian + 34% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.81
14 71.3% Austrian + 28.7% Portuguese @ 2.83
15 66% East_German + 34% North_Italian @ 2.86
16 64.1% Hungarian + 35.9% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.89
17 73.9% Austrian + 26.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.92
18 50.2% Southeast_English + 49.8% Romanian @ 2.92
19 65.8% Hungarian + 34.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.96
20 65.8% Hungarian + 34.2% Southwest_French @ 3.05


Gedrosia 6.78 Pct
Siberian 0.25 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 36 Pct
North_European 39.38 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 3.53 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 14.06 Pct
Sub_Saharan -


Baden-Württemberg:
North_Atlantic 37.78 Pct
Baltic 33.28 Pct
West_Med 11.05 Pct
West_Asian 4.87 Pct
East_Med 9.17 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.66 Pct
East_Asian 0.44 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.1 Pct
Oceanian 0.33 Pct
Northeast_African 0.33 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Berlin:
North_Atlantic 46.94 Pct
Baltic 26.21 Pct
West_Med 12.93 Pct
West_Asian 6.08 Pct
East_Med 4.73 Pct
Red_Sea 0.22 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.12 Pct
Siberian 0.69 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African 0.77 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.16 Pct

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern:
North_Atlantic 40.17 Pct
Baltic 36.4 Pct
West_Med 10 Pct
West_Asian 3.71 Pct
East_Med 8.02 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.58 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.34 Pct
Northeast_African 0.75 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

These are from there on grandparent level too? Any specific locations? Just checking.

[J. Ketch]

It would be good to split Bavaria and Southwest Germany once there's enough kits, they do seem quite different.

[Leto]

grandparents are from there too? If yes, I will add to German samples list.
No but you can see their results are in line with what we know or expect. The same goes for the Mecklenburg woman which was overlooked because of my poor comment.

[J. Ketch]

No but you can see their results are in line with what we know or expect. The same goes for the Mecklenburg woman which was overlooked because of my poor comment.
The Baden-Wurttemberg one is not in line with that region, looks East German. And the Berlin one looks West German.

[Jana]

The Baden-Wurttemberg one is not in line with that region, looks East German. And the Berlin one looks West German.

rothaer and me decided to use only kits with veriefied geneaology (gedcom and similar) where is 100% sure 4/4 grandparents are from same area.
This way sample size is lower (and there aren't that many German kits fulfilling such criteria floating around), but it will be max accurate and reliable.

Because even with small sample size which is fully rooted somewhere you can get highly representative results.

[Leto]

The Baden-Wurttemberg one is not in line with that region, looks East German. And the Berlin one looks West German.
Yes but those were posted by Dunai, not me.

[Leto]

A guy living in Munich, Bavaria

North_Atlantic 38.34 Pct
Baltic 28.04 Pct
West_Med 13.68 Pct
West_Asian 8.04 Pct
East_Med 10.47 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.76 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.36 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.32 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Austrian 3.44
2 East_German 5.74
3 Hungarian 6.5
4 West_German 7.03
5 South_Dutch 8.58
6 North_German 10.02
7 Serbian 11.23
8 French 12.01
9 Croatian 12.22
10 Danish 12.45
11 North_Dutch 12.72
12 Southeast_English 12.73
13 Swedish 13.05
14 Moldavian 13.39
15 Orcadian 13.94
16 Norwegian 14.05
17 North_Swedish 14.38
18 South_Polish 14.84
19 Romanian 14.88
20 Southwest_English 14.91

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56% Norwegian + 44% Bulgarian @ 2.11
2 55.7% Serbian + 44.3% Norwegian @ 2.12
3 52.7% Serbian + 47.3% Danish @ 2.18
4 53.2% Serbian + 46.8% North_Dutch @ 2.21
5 57.9% Swedish + 42.1% Bulgarian @ 2.23
6 53% North_German + 47% Serbian @ 2.33
7 51.5% Norwegian + 48.5% Romanian @ 2.35
8 52.2% Hungarian + 47.8% West_German @ 2.36
9 53.4% Swedish + 46.6% Romanian @ 2.44
10 64.5% North_German + 35.5% Bulgarian @ 2.6
11 57.9% Hungarian + 42.1% South_Dutch @ 2.69
12 64.7% West_German + 35.3% Croatian @ 2.7
13 59.1% Danish + 40.9% Bulgarian @ 2.72
14 60.3% North_German + 39.7% Romanian @ 2.74
15 76.3% Austrian + 23.7% West_German @ 2.79
16 58.6% North_Dutch + 41.4% Bulgarian @ 2.81
17 55.7% Serbian + 44.3% Orcadian @ 2.82
18 54% Serbian + 46% Swedish @ 2.82
19 54.6% Danish + 45.4% Romanian @ 2.83
20 54.1% North_Dutch + 45.9% Romanian @ 2.88

Mother

North_Atlantic 37.12 Pct
Baltic 31.69 Pct
West_Med 16.97 Pct
West_Asian 6.65 Pct
East_Med 5.62 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.28 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.97 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.7 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 3.01
2 Austrian 4.1
3 Hungarian 7.13
4 West_German 10.37
5 Croatian 10.45
6 South_Dutch 10.99
7 North_German 11.47
8 South_Polish 12.13
9 Moldavian 12.55
10 Swedish 12.8
11 North_Swedish 13.03
12 Serbian 13.35
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.44
14 Danish 13.72
15 North_Dutch 13.8
16 Ukrainian 14.16
17 Southeast_English 14.28
18 Norwegian 14.46
19 French 14.6
20 Orcadian 14.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% South_Polish + 27.1% French_Basque @ 2.49
2 96.6% East_German + 3.4% Sardinian @ 2.54
3 62.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.2% French_Basque @ 2.56
4 93.2% East_German + 6.8% Southwest_French @ 2.59
5 95.4% East_German + 4.6% French_Basque @ 2.6
6 94.1% East_German + 5.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.68
7 95.3% East_German + 4.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.75
8 95.4% East_German + 4.6% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.75
9 95.1% East_German + 4.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.76
10 95.2% East_German + 4.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.78
11 94.8% East_German + 5.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.79
12 95.5% East_German + 4.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.81
13 95.3% East_German + 4.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.81
14 95.1% East_German + 4.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.82
15 95.8% East_German + 4.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.83
16 95.4% East_German + 4.6% Portuguese @ 2.84
17 96.1% East_German + 3.9% North_Italian @ 2.86
18 95.3% East_German + 4.7% French @ 2.93
19 99.4% East_German + 0.6% Mayan @ 2.94
20 97.9% East_German + 2.1% Tuscan @ 2.95

Grandmother

North_Atlantic 37.73 Pct
Baltic 31.42 Pct
West_Med 16.01 Pct
West_Asian 8.46 Pct
East_Med 2.69 Pct
Red_Sea 1.36 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.14 Pct
Amerindian 1.53 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.66 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 4.51
2 Austrian 5.55
3 Hungarian 8.64
4 North_German 10.63
5 West_German 10.79
6 South_Dutch 11.24
7 Croatian 11.73
8 Swedish 11.76
9 North_Swedish 12.26
10 South_Polish 12.78
11 North_Dutch 12.99
12 Danish 13.03
13 Norwegian 13.45
14 Moldavian 13.7
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.81
16 Southeast_English 14.11
17 Orcadian 14.12
18 Irish 14.77
19 Ukrainian 14.81
20 Serbian 15.04

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.3% Croatian + 43.7% Irish @ 3.98
2 52.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 47.2% Southwest_English @ 4.12
3 58.3% Croatian + 41.7% West_Scottish @ 4.25
4 91% East_German + 9% Irish @ 4.28
5 96% East_German + 4% French_Basque @ 4.3
6 57.4% Croatian + 42.6% Southwest_English @ 4.31
7 98.8% East_German + 1.2% Mayan @ 4.32
8 99% East_German + 1% Karitiana @ 4.33
9 98.9% East_German + 1.1% Pima @ 4.34
10 92.7% East_German + 7.3% West_Scottish @ 4.34
11 92.4% East_German + 7.6% Southwest_English @ 4.34
12 98.9% East_German + 1.1% North_Amerindian @ 4.37
13 92.5% East_German + 7.5% Orcadian @ 4.37
14 92.5% East_German + 7.5% Norwegian @ 4.39
15 98% East_German + 2% Ossetian @ 4.39
16 55.2% Croatian + 44.8% Orcadian @ 4.4
17 92.7% East_German + 7.3% North_Dutch @ 4.4
18 92.2% East_German + 7.8% Swedish @ 4.41
19 98% East_German + 2% Kabardin @ 4.41
20 98.2% East_German + 1.8% North_Ossetian @ 4.41

Grandfather

North_Atlantic 34.14 Pct
Baltic 34.87 Pct
West_Med 12.24 Pct
West_Asian 7.85 Pct
East_Med 9.39 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.22 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.27 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 3.68
2 East_German 5.49
3 Austrian 6.03
4 Croatian 6.81
5 South_Polish 7.76
6 Moldavian 9.33
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.56
8 Ukrainian 10.24
9 Serbian 11.35
10 Polish 11.55
11 North_Swedish 13.18
12 Southwest_Finnish 13.61
13 West_German 13.86
14 Southwest_Russian 13.94
15 North_German 14.09
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod 14.25
17 Russian_Smolensk 14.57
18 South_Dutch 15.04
19 Swedish 15.13
20 Belorussian 15.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.2% Austrian + 28.8% Southwest_Russian @ 2.31
2 71.8% Austrian + 28.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.42
3 83% Hungarian + 17% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.45
4 86.4% Hungarian + 13.6% Estonian @ 2.45
5 72.9% Hungarian + 27.1% South_Polish @ 2.45
6 57.3% Austrian + 42.7% South_Polish @ 2.55
7 86.5% Hungarian + 13.5% Finnish @ 2.58
8 50.2% West_German + 49.8% Southwest_Russian @ 2.58
9 88.3% Hungarian + 11.7% Lithuanian @ 2.62
10 81.4% Hungarian + 18.6% Polish @ 2.63
11 85.4% Hungarian + 14.6% Belorussian @ 2.66
12 50.7% West_German + 49.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.72
13 65.2% South_Polish + 34.8% West_German @ 2.74
14 85.5% Hungarian + 14.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.77
15 79.2% Austrian + 20.8% Erzya @ 2.77
16 86.3% Hungarian + 13.7% Estonian_Polish @ 2.81
17 89% Hungarian + 11% East_Finnish @ 2.81
18 64.9% Austrian + 35.1% Ukrainian @ 2.84
19 57% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 43% French @ 2.84
20 85.1% Hungarian + 14.9% North_Swedish @ 2.9

Wife

North_Atlantic 36.71 Pct
Baltic 33.14 Pct
West_Med 14.43 Pct
West_Asian 3.96 Pct
East_Med 8.14 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.79 Pct
East_Asian 0.06 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.75 Pct
Oceanian 1.01 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 3.07
2 Austrian 4.62
3 Hungarian 5.86
4 Croatian 9.54
5 South_Polish 10.47
6 West_German 11.37
7 North_Swedish 11.9
8 North_German 11.95
9 Moldavian 12.13
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.19
11 South_Dutch 12.26
12 Ukrainian 12.72
13 Swedish 12.94
14 Serbian 13.01
15 Polish 13.46
16 Southwest_Finnish 14.02
17 Danish 14.1
18 North_Dutch 14.47
19 Norwegian 15
20 Southeast_English 15.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.7% French + 42.3% Lithuanian @ 2.63
2 52.2% French + 47.8% Belorussian @ 2.69
3 52.2% French + 47.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.77
4 99.1% East_German + 0.9% Papuan @ 2.86
5 54.3% Polish + 45.7% French @ 2.87
6 99% East_German + 1% NAN_Melanesian @ 2.88
7 94.2% East_German + 5.8% Belorussian @ 2.89
8 94.2% East_German + 5.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.89
9 92.5% East_German + 7.5% Ukrainian @ 2.9
10 91.4% East_German + 8.6% South_Polish @ 2.92
11 94.6% East_German + 5.4% Southwest_Russian @ 2.92
12 95.8% East_German + 4.2% La_Brana-1 @ 2.92
13 91.1% East_German + 8.9% Croatian @ 2.94
14 96.1% East_German + 3.9% Lithuanian @ 2.95
15 95.6% East_German + 4.4% Estonian @ 2.95
16 94% East_German + 6% Polish @ 2.96
17 86% East_German + 14% Hungarian @ 2.96
18 95.3% East_German + 4.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.96
19 60.8% South_Polish + 39.2% French @ 2.96
20 93.9% East_German + 6.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.97

Father

North_Atlantic 34.73 Pct
Baltic 35.55 Pct
West_Med 13.77 Pct
West_Asian 3.74 Pct
East_Med 8.04 Pct
Red_Sea 2.68 Pct
South_Asian 0.78 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.67 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 4.96
2 Hungarian 5.91
3 Austrian 6.42
4 Croatian 7.77
5 South_Polish 8.11
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.61
7 Ukrainian 10.34
8 Moldavian 10.93
9 Polish 10.93
10 North_Swedish 12.43
11 Southwest_Finnish 12.84
12 Serbian 12.92
13 West_German 14.15
14 North_German 14.19
15 Russian_Smolensk 14.23
16 Southwest_Russian 14.46
17 Estonian_Polish 14.6
18 Belorussian 14.61
19 Swedish 14.68
20 South_Dutch 14.92

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.7% Belorussian + 44.3% French @ 1.75
2 62.8% Belorussian + 37.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.87
3 55.7% Estonian_Polish + 44.3% French @ 1.9
4 63.6% Belorussian + 36.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.01
5 67.1% Belorussian + 32.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.1
6 65.6% Belorussian + 34.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.16
7 65% Belorussian + 35% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.25
8 56.4% Russian_Smolensk + 43.6% French @ 2.28
9 64.8% Belorussian + 35.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.3
10 62.9% Belorussian + 37.1% Portuguese @ 2.32
11 62.6% Belorussian + 37.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.42
12 64.7% Belorussian + 35.3% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.43
13 64.6% Belorussian + 35.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.49
14 63% Polish + 37% French @ 2.5
15 51% French + 49% Lithuanian @ 2.52
16 63.6% Russian_Smolensk + 36.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.61
17 58.7% Lithuanian + 41.3% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.65
18 66.5% Belorussian + 33.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.66
19 56.4% Lithuanian + 43.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.67
20 64.4% Russian_Smolensk + 35.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.68

Mother

North_Atlantic 34.1 Pct
Baltic 34.2 Pct
West_Med 14.68 Pct
West_Asian 4.41 Pct
East_Med 9.59 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.26 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.22 Pct
Oceanian 0.33 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.22 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 4.45
2 East_German 4.76
3 Austrian 5.78
4 Croatian 7.09
5 South_Polish 9.07
6 Moldavian 9.86
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.51
8 Ukrainian 11.01
9 Serbian 11.35
10 Polish 12.35
11 West_German 13.3
12 North_Swedish 13.88
13 South_Dutch 14.35
14 North_German 14.44
15 Southwest_Finnish 14.52
16 Southwest_Russian 15.32
17 Swedish 15.49
18 Romanian 15.58
19 Russian_Smolensk 15.65
20 Ukrainian_Belgorod 15.91

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.1% South_Polish + 25.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.31
2 61.1% Belorussian + 38.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.47
3 72.5% South_Polish + 27.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.5
4 59.1% Belorussian + 40.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.54
5 74.5% South_Polish + 25.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.61
6 76.5% South_Polish + 23.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.73
7 73.6% South_Polish + 26.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.73
8 67.5% Polish + 32.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.73
9 59.4% Estonian_Polish + 40.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.74
10 72.8% South_Polish + 27.2% Portuguese @ 2.76
11 61.9% Russian_Smolensk + 38.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.77
12 75.3% South_Polish + 24.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.85
13 59.9% Russian_Smolensk + 40.1% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.86
14 61.5% Estonian_Polish + 38.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.88
15 61.7% Ukrainian + 38.3% French @ 2.88
16 60.5% Southwest_Russian + 39.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.94
17 63.1% Belorussian + 36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.94
18 65.7% Polish + 34.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.95
19 61.6% Belorussian + 38.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.96
20 74.5% South_Polish + 25.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.97

None of them appears to be a native Bavarian. Maybe his father who is not tested (possibly dead or unavailable somehow).

[Leto]

From Berlin

North_Atlantic 36.98 Pct
Baltic 36.82 Pct
West_Med 12.27 Pct
West_Asian 2.89 Pct
East_Med 6.24 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 2.82 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.48 Pct
Oceanian 0.35 Pct
Northeast_African 0.37 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.76 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 5.67
2 Austrian 8.1
3 South_Polish 8.18
4 Hungarian 8.37
5 North_Swedish 9.82
6 Polish 10.39
7 Croatian 10.4
8 Southwest_Finnish 10.41
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.56
10 Ukrainian 10.66
11 Swedish 12.63
12 North_German 13.03
13 Moldavian 13.68
14 Russian_Smolensk 13.84
15 Belorussian 13.95
16 Estonian_Polish 14.1
17 Southwest_Russian 14.48
18 West_German 14.67
19 Finnish 14.91
20 Danish 15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.9% Estonian_Polish + 45.1% Southeast_English @ 3.02
2 75.7% East_German + 24.3% Estonian @ 3.12
3 52.4% Lithuanian + 47.6% French @ 3.15
4 54% South_Dutch + 46% Lithuanian @ 3.18
5 52.4% Belorussian + 47.6% South_Dutch @ 3.18
6 55.1% West_German + 44.9% Lithuanian @ 3.19
7 52.2% Estonian_Polish + 47.8% South_Dutch @ 3.2
8 62.2% Ukrainian + 37.8% Southeast_English @ 3.32
9 69.1% South_Polish + 30.9% Southeast_English @ 3.32
10 62.9% Polish + 37.1% Southeast_English @ 3.34
11 79.4% East_German + 20.6% Lithuanian @ 3.36
12 74.8% East_German + 25.2% Belorussian @ 3.38
13 51.3% Belorussian + 48.7% West_German @ 3.43
14 56.8% Estonian + 43.2% French @ 3.43
15 51.1% Estonian_Polish + 48.9% West_German @ 3.44
16 68.6% East_German + 31.4% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.45
17 76.4% East_German + 23.6% Finnish @ 3.46
18 60.4% Polish + 39.6% South_Dutch @ 3.52
19 55.3% Belorussian + 44.7% Southeast_English @ 3.55
20 59.2% Ukrainian + 40.8% Danish @ 3.55

[Smitty]

A guy living in Munich, Bavaria

North_Atlantic 38.34 Pct
Baltic 28.04 Pct
West_Med 13.68 Pct
West_Asian 8.04 Pct
East_Med 10.47 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.76 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.36 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.32 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Austrian 3.44
2 East_German 5.74
3 Hungarian 6.5
4 West_German 7.03
5 South_Dutch 8.58
6 North_German 10.02
7 Serbian 11.23
8 French 12.01
9 Croatian 12.22
10 Danish 12.45
11 North_Dutch 12.72
12 Southeast_English 12.73
13 Swedish 13.05
14 Moldavian 13.39
15 Orcadian 13.94
16 Norwegian 14.05
17 North_Swedish 14.38
18 South_Polish 14.84
19 Romanian 14.88
20 Southwest_English 14.91

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56% Norwegian + 44% Bulgarian @ 2.11
2 55.7% Serbian + 44.3% Norwegian @ 2.12
3 52.7% Serbian + 47.3% Danish @ 2.18
4 53.2% Serbian + 46.8% North_Dutch @ 2.21
5 57.9% Swedish + 42.1% Bulgarian @ 2.23
6 53% North_German + 47% Serbian @ 2.33
7 51.5% Norwegian + 48.5% Romanian @ 2.35
8 52.2% Hungarian + 47.8% West_German @ 2.36
9 53.4% Swedish + 46.6% Romanian @ 2.44
10 64.5% North_German + 35.5% Bulgarian @ 2.6
11 57.9% Hungarian + 42.1% South_Dutch @ 2.69
12 64.7% West_German + 35.3% Croatian @ 2.7
13 59.1% Danish + 40.9% Bulgarian @ 2.72
14 60.3% North_German + 39.7% Romanian @ 2.74
15 76.3% Austrian + 23.7% West_German @ 2.79
16 58.6% North_Dutch + 41.4% Bulgarian @ 2.81
17 55.7% Serbian + 44.3% Orcadian @ 2.82
18 54% Serbian + 46% Swedish @ 2.82
19 54.6% Danish + 45.4% Romanian @ 2.83
20 54.1% North_Dutch + 45.9% Romanian @ 2.88

Mother

North_Atlantic 37.12 Pct
Baltic 31.69 Pct
West_Med 16.97 Pct
West_Asian 6.65 Pct
East_Med 5.62 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.28 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.97 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.7 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 3.01
2 Austrian 4.1
3 Hungarian 7.13
4 West_German 10.37
5 Croatian 10.45
6 South_Dutch 10.99
7 North_German 11.47
8 South_Polish 12.13
9 Moldavian 12.55
10 Swedish 12.8
11 North_Swedish 13.03
12 Serbian 13.35
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.44
14 Danish 13.72
15 North_Dutch 13.8
16 Ukrainian 14.16
17 Southeast_English 14.28
18 Norwegian 14.46
19 French 14.6
20 Orcadian 14.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% South_Polish + 27.1% French_Basque @ 2.49
2 96.6% East_German + 3.4% Sardinian @ 2.54
3 62.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.2% French_Basque @ 2.56
4 93.2% East_German + 6.8% Southwest_French @ 2.59
5 95.4% East_German + 4.6% French_Basque @ 2.6
6 94.1% East_German + 5.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.68
7 95.3% East_German + 4.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.75
8 95.4% East_German + 4.6% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.75
9 95.1% East_German + 4.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.76
10 95.2% East_German + 4.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.78
11 94.8% East_German + 5.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.79
12 95.5% East_German + 4.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.81
13 95.3% East_German + 4.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.81
14 95.1% East_German + 4.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.82
15 95.8% East_German + 4.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.83
16 95.4% East_German + 4.6% Portuguese @ 2.84
17 96.1% East_German + 3.9% North_Italian @ 2.86
18 95.3% East_German + 4.7% French @ 2.93
19 99.4% East_German + 0.6% Mayan @ 2.94
20 97.9% East_German + 2.1% Tuscan @ 2.95

Grandmother

North_Atlantic 37.73 Pct
Baltic 31.42 Pct
West_Med 16.01 Pct
West_Asian 8.46 Pct
East_Med 2.69 Pct
Red_Sea 1.36 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.14 Pct
Amerindian 1.53 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.66 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 4.51
2 Austrian 5.55
3 Hungarian 8.64
4 North_German 10.63
5 West_German 10.79
6 South_Dutch 11.24
7 Croatian 11.73
8 Swedish 11.76
9 North_Swedish 12.26
10 South_Polish 12.78
11 North_Dutch 12.99
12 Danish 13.03
13 Norwegian 13.45
14 Moldavian 13.7
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.81
16 Southeast_English 14.11
17 Orcadian 14.12
18 Irish 14.77
19 Ukrainian 14.81
20 Serbian 15.04

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.3% Croatian + 43.7% Irish @ 3.98
2 52.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 47.2% Southwest_English @ 4.12
3 58.3% Croatian + 41.7% West_Scottish @ 4.25
4 91% East_German + 9% Irish @ 4.28
5 96% East_German + 4% French_Basque @ 4.3
6 57.4% Croatian + 42.6% Southwest_English @ 4.31
7 98.8% East_German + 1.2% Mayan @ 4.32
8 99% East_German + 1% Karitiana @ 4.33
9 98.9% East_German + 1.1% Pima @ 4.34
10 92.7% East_German + 7.3% West_Scottish @ 4.34
11 92.4% East_German + 7.6% Southwest_English @ 4.34
12 98.9% East_German + 1.1% North_Amerindian @ 4.37
13 92.5% East_German + 7.5% Orcadian @ 4.37
14 92.5% East_German + 7.5% Norwegian @ 4.39
15 98% East_German + 2% Ossetian @ 4.39
16 55.2% Croatian + 44.8% Orcadian @ 4.4
17 92.7% East_German + 7.3% North_Dutch @ 4.4
18 92.2% East_German + 7.8% Swedish @ 4.41
19 98% East_German + 2% Kabardin @ 4.41
20 98.2% East_German + 1.8% North_Ossetian @ 4.41

Grandfather

North_Atlantic 34.14 Pct
Baltic 34.87 Pct
West_Med 12.24 Pct
West_Asian 7.85 Pct
East_Med 9.39 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.22 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.27 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 3.68
2 East_German 5.49
3 Austrian 6.03
4 Croatian 6.81
5 South_Polish 7.76
6 Moldavian 9.33
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.56
8 Ukrainian 10.24
9 Serbian 11.35
10 Polish 11.55
11 North_Swedish 13.18
12 Southwest_Finnish 13.61
13 West_German 13.86
14 Southwest_Russian 13.94
15 North_German 14.09
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod 14.25
17 Russian_Smolensk 14.57
18 South_Dutch 15.04
19 Swedish 15.13
20 Belorussian 15.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.2% Austrian + 28.8% Southwest_Russian @ 2.31
2 71.8% Austrian + 28.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.42
3 83% Hungarian + 17% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.45
4 86.4% Hungarian + 13.6% Estonian @ 2.45
5 72.9% Hungarian + 27.1% South_Polish @ 2.45
6 57.3% Austrian + 42.7% South_Polish @ 2.55
7 86.5% Hungarian + 13.5% Finnish @ 2.58
8 50.2% West_German + 49.8% Southwest_Russian @ 2.58
9 88.3% Hungarian + 11.7% Lithuanian @ 2.62
10 81.4% Hungarian + 18.6% Polish @ 2.63
11 85.4% Hungarian + 14.6% Belorussian @ 2.66
12 50.7% West_German + 49.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.72
13 65.2% South_Polish + 34.8% West_German @ 2.74
14 85.5% Hungarian + 14.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.77
15 79.2% Austrian + 20.8% Erzya @ 2.77
16 86.3% Hungarian + 13.7% Estonian_Polish @ 2.81
17 89% Hungarian + 11% East_Finnish @ 2.81
18 64.9% Austrian + 35.1% Ukrainian @ 2.84
19 57% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 43% French @ 2.84
20 85.1% Hungarian + 14.9% North_Swedish @ 2.9

Wife

North_Atlantic 36.71 Pct
Baltic 33.14 Pct
West_Med 14.43 Pct
West_Asian 3.96 Pct
East_Med 8.14 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.79 Pct
East_Asian 0.06 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.75 Pct
Oceanian 1.01 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 3.07
2 Austrian 4.62
3 Hungarian 5.86
4 Croatian 9.54
5 South_Polish 10.47
6 West_German 11.37
7 North_Swedish 11.9
8 North_German 11.95
9 Moldavian 12.13
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.19
11 South_Dutch 12.26
12 Ukrainian 12.72
13 Swedish 12.94
14 Serbian 13.01
15 Polish 13.46
16 Southwest_Finnish 14.02
17 Danish 14.1
18 North_Dutch 14.47
19 Norwegian 15
20 Southeast_English 15.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.7% French + 42.3% Lithuanian @ 2.63
2 52.2% French + 47.8% Belorussian @ 2.69
3 52.2% French + 47.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.77
4 99.1% East_German + 0.9% Papuan @ 2.86
5 54.3% Polish + 45.7% French @ 2.87
6 99% East_German + 1% NAN_Melanesian @ 2.88
7 94.2% East_German + 5.8% Belorussian @ 2.89
8 94.2% East_German + 5.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.89
9 92.5% East_German + 7.5% Ukrainian @ 2.9
10 91.4% East_German + 8.6% South_Polish @ 2.92
11 94.6% East_German + 5.4% Southwest_Russian @ 2.92
12 95.8% East_German + 4.2% La_Brana-1 @ 2.92
13 91.1% East_German + 8.9% Croatian @ 2.94
14 96.1% East_German + 3.9% Lithuanian @ 2.95
15 95.6% East_German + 4.4% Estonian @ 2.95
16 94% East_German + 6% Polish @ 2.96
17 86% East_German + 14% Hungarian @ 2.96
18 95.3% East_German + 4.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.96
19 60.8% South_Polish + 39.2% French @ 2.96
20 93.9% East_German + 6.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.97

Father

North_Atlantic 34.73 Pct
Baltic 35.55 Pct
West_Med 13.77 Pct
West_Asian 3.74 Pct
East_Med 8.04 Pct
Red_Sea 2.68 Pct
South_Asian 0.78 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.67 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 4.96
2 Hungarian 5.91
3 Austrian 6.42
4 Croatian 7.77
5 South_Polish 8.11
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.61
7 Ukrainian 10.34
8 Moldavian 10.93
9 Polish 10.93
10 North_Swedish 12.43
11 Southwest_Finnish 12.84
12 Serbian 12.92
13 West_German 14.15
14 North_German 14.19
15 Russian_Smolensk 14.23
16 Southwest_Russian 14.46
17 Estonian_Polish 14.6
18 Belorussian 14.61
19 Swedish 14.68
20 South_Dutch 14.92

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.7% Belorussian + 44.3% French @ 1.75
2 62.8% Belorussian + 37.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.87
3 55.7% Estonian_Polish + 44.3% French @ 1.9
4 63.6% Belorussian + 36.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.01
5 67.1% Belorussian + 32.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.1
6 65.6% Belorussian + 34.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.16
7 65% Belorussian + 35% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.25
8 56.4% Russian_Smolensk + 43.6% French @ 2.28
9 64.8% Belorussian + 35.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.3
10 62.9% Belorussian + 37.1% Portuguese @ 2.32
11 62.6% Belorussian + 37.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.42
12 64.7% Belorussian + 35.3% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.43
13 64.6% Belorussian + 35.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.49
14 63% Polish + 37% French @ 2.5
15 51% French + 49% Lithuanian @ 2.52
16 63.6% Russian_Smolensk + 36.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.61
17 58.7% Lithuanian + 41.3% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.65
18 66.5% Belorussian + 33.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.66
19 56.4% Lithuanian + 43.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.67
20 64.4% Russian_Smolensk + 35.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.68

Mother

North_Atlantic 34.1 Pct
Baltic 34.2 Pct
West_Med 14.68 Pct
West_Asian 4.41 Pct
East_Med 9.59 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.26 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.22 Pct
Oceanian 0.33 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.22 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 4.45
2 East_German 4.76
3 Austrian 5.78
4 Croatian 7.09
5 South_Polish 9.07
6 Moldavian 9.86
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.51
8 Ukrainian 11.01
9 Serbian 11.35
10 Polish 12.35
11 West_German 13.3
12 North_Swedish 13.88
13 South_Dutch 14.35
14 North_German 14.44
15 Southwest_Finnish 14.52
16 Southwest_Russian 15.32
17 Swedish 15.49
18 Romanian 15.58
19 Russian_Smolensk 15.65
20 Ukrainian_Belgorod 15.91

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.1% South_Polish + 25.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.31
2 61.1% Belorussian + 38.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.47
3 72.5% South_Polish + 27.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.5
4 59.1% Belorussian + 40.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.54
5 74.5% South_Polish + 25.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.61
6 76.5% South_Polish + 23.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.73
7 73.6% South_Polish + 26.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.73
8 67.5% Polish + 32.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.73
9 59.4% Estonian_Polish + 40.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.74
10 72.8% South_Polish + 27.2% Portuguese @ 2.76
11 61.9% Russian_Smolensk + 38.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.77
12 75.3% South_Polish + 24.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.85
13 59.9% Russian_Smolensk + 40.1% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.86
14 61.5% Estonian_Polish + 38.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.88
15 61.7% Ukrainian + 38.3% French @ 2.88
16 60.5% Southwest_Russian + 39.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.94
17 63.1% Belorussian + 36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.94
18 65.7% Polish + 34.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.95
19 61.6% Belorussian + 38.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.96
20 74.5% South_Polish + 25.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.97

None of them appears to be a native Bavarian. Maybe his father who is not tested (possibly dead or unavailable somehow).

His wife and her parents obviously aren't, but he couldn't be?

[Jana]

From Berlin

North_Atlantic 36.98 Pct
Baltic 36.82 Pct
West_Med 12.27 Pct
West_Asian 2.89 Pct
East_Med 6.24 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 2.82 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.48 Pct
Oceanian 0.35 Pct
Northeast_African 0.37 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.76 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 5.67
2 Austrian 8.1
3 South_Polish 8.18
4 Hungarian 8.37
5 North_Swedish 9.82
6 Polish 10.39
7 Croatian 10.4
8 Southwest_Finnish 10.41
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.56
10 Ukrainian 10.66
11 Swedish 12.63
12 North_German 13.03
13 Moldavian 13.68
14 Russian_Smolensk 13.84
15 Belorussian 13.95
16 Estonian_Polish 14.1
17 Southwest_Russian 14.48
18 West_German 14.67
19 Finnish 14.91
20 Danish 15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.9% Estonian_Polish + 45.1% Southeast_English @ 3.02
2 75.7% East_German + 24.3% Estonian @ 3.12
3 52.4% Lithuanian + 47.6% French @ 3.15
4 54% South_Dutch + 46% Lithuanian @ 3.18
5 52.4% Belorussian + 47.6% South_Dutch @ 3.18
6 55.1% West_German + 44.9% Lithuanian @ 3.19
7 52.2% Estonian_Polish + 47.8% South_Dutch @ 3.2
8 62.2% Ukrainian + 37.8% Southeast_English @ 3.32
9 69.1% South_Polish + 30.9% Southeast_English @ 3.32
10 62.9% Polish + 37.1% Southeast_English @ 3.34
11 79.4% East_German + 20.6% Lithuanian @ 3.36
12 74.8% East_German + 25.2% Belorussian @ 3.38
13 51.3% Belorussian + 48.7% West_German @ 3.43
14 56.8% Estonian + 43.2% French @ 3.43
15 51.1% Estonian_Polish + 48.9% West_German @ 3.44
16 68.6% East_German + 31.4% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.45
17 76.4% East_German + 23.6% Finnish @ 3.46
18 60.4% Polish + 39.6% South_Dutch @ 3.52
19 55.3% Belorussian + 44.7% Southeast_English @ 3.55
20 59.2% Ukrainian + 40.8% Danish @ 3.55

Looks like average Brandenburger. We can't be sure without more info, but Germans from Brandenburg often plot like that.

[Leto]

His wife and her parents obviously aren't, but he couldn't be?
I think he might be half Bavarian but his mother looks too Eastern. 30+% Baltic is an Eastern German characteristic.

Looks like average Brandenburger. We can't be sure without more info, but Germans from Brandenburg often plot like that.
Yes, a very far Eastern German.
Either Germany is really full to the brim with Central Europeans or they are heavily overrepresented on Gedmatch for some reason. Maybe because Eastern Germany is less liberal, more right-wing. But then again, a lot of these people don't live in the former GDR.

[Jana]

It is done. Big thanks to rothaer! :D K13 New Year gift.


German_Saxony,37.14,34.35,13.58,5.86,5.61,0.87,1.0 8,0.06,0.25,0.58,0.30,0.14,0.17
German_Upper_Swabia,41.54,22.90,15.28,6.77,10.64,0 .68,0.72,0.27,0.41,0.34,0.39,0.00,0.05
German_Saxony-Anhalt_south,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_Central_Hesse,41.92,26.21,14.96,8.9,5.73,0. 87,0,0.9,0,0,0.45,0.05,0
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Lower_Franconia,41.02,24.79,15.76,6.57,8.84 ,0.72,0.67,0.15,0.00,0.82,0.04,0.53,0.08
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony,39.15,31.43,12.59,6.21 ,7.42,1.47,0.00,0.03,0.15,0.02,0.00,1.12,0.39
German_Saarland,43.97,19.91,19.32,7.13,6.82,0.88,1 .54,0.00,0.00,0.19,0.00,0.26,0.00
German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_North_Rhine,43.32,22.19,15.70,7.63,8.21,0.7 1,0.91,0.15,0.26,0.14,0.38,0.26,0.15
German_North_Baden,41.05,22.09,17.19,6.37,10.17,0. 35,0.68,0.38,0.58,0.17,0.53,0.28,0.16
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_Farther_Pomerania,39.85,37.28,9.79,5.50,2.7 7,1.10,1.82,0.00,0.07,0.45,0.35,1.02,0.04
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52 ,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0
German_Lower_Saxony_north,50.86,28.10,10.10,5.94,2 .03,0.00,1.50,0.78,0.00,0.18,0.48,0.03,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_south,48.89,25.02,11.37,6.26,4 .56,0.58,1.97,0.00,0.24,0.31,0.05,0.16,0.58
German_Westphalia,49.31,25.15,11.25,7.18,3.97,0.69 ,0.72,0.18,0.07,0.79,0.10,0.10,0.50
German_West_Prussia,35.60,39.30,11.20,6.60,4.18,0. 25,0.89,0.00,0.68,0.34,0.47,0.00,0.48
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.42,21.25,16.46,7.21,8.90,1.51,0.02,0 .20,1.11,0.20,0.23,0.33,0.16
Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12, 0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Schleswig-Holstein,49.59,28.21,13.33,5.42,0,1.79,0,1.19,0,0, 0,0,0.47
German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
Austrian_Carinthia,34.35,34.42,13.15,3.82,10.84,1. 04,1.43,0,0.39,0,0.11,0.1,0

[Smitty]

This is really great. Thanks, Stearsolina and rothaer. It looks like Vorpommern is heavily Germanic?

Target: German_Hither_Pomerania
Distance: 0.6056% / 0.60561845
46.2 Norwegian
21.0 German_Hamburg
16.6 Upper_Silesia
9.3 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
3.0 Ossetian_North
2.3 Latvian
1.5 Abhkaz
0.1 Aari

And Hinterpommern, although predictably more Slavic than Vorpommern, is only about half Slavic. Do we know where in Hinterpommern the samples came from?

Target: German_Farther_Pomerania
Distance: 0.4846% / 0.48462605
26.8 Polish
21.8 Lithuanian
16.0 German_Frisian
13.0 German_Lower_Saxony_north
8.6 German_North
5.5 Irish_Connacht
2.6 Austrian_Upper_Austria
1.4 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
1.4 German_Schleswig-Holstein
0.8 Jat_Punjab
0.6 Aari
0.6 German_Saarland
0.4 German_Hamburg
0.3 Beta_Israel
0.2 Baloch

[J. Ketch]

I can see the Frisian average is a bit out there and based on one sample, I'd recommend using this one too.


Nordfriesland1 49.66 27.9 10.41 3.62 3.86 0.74 1.43 0 1.66 0.58 0 0 0.13 T381963

A few others that I don't know if you used or not. If any of the kits/gedcoms are no longer working I'm pretty sure I checked them myself.

Schleswig-Holstein

SH1 50.67 25.39 11.43 4.89 5.44 0.13 0 0.08 0 0.69 0.72 0.38 0.17 T166457
SH2 54.08 26.84 10.79 1.49 2.49 2.1 1.18 0 0 0 0.36 0.45 0.22 H583226
SH3 49.58 28.9 10.42 4.84 3.98 0 0.83 0.18 0 1.27 0 0 0 T717539

Hamburg

Hamburg1 48.79 26.74 9.26 5.84 5.41 0 0.66 0 0.29 1.79 0.95 0.27 0 H150101
Hamburg2 44.14 28.51 14.42 4.75 5.54 0 0 0.2 0.41 1.2 0 0.17 0.65 H934074

[mariusz99]

I'm impressed, really impressed. I'm so impresed just like last time when I detected Parsi India/Bangladeshi for my girlfriend with K13 and G25. MyHeritage was to weak to show it...
My grandma results with almost full datasheet shows Lower Saxony. 1000% accuracy.

Target: babcia
Distance: 1.2248% / 1.22482924
43.2 Belarusian_Minsk
21.5 German_Lower_Saxony_north
16.3 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
11.3 Russian_Pskov
5.9 German_West_Prussia
0.9 Jat_Punjab
0.6 Gujarati
0.3 Upper_Silesia

Thank you Stearsolina and Rothaer for new, very accurate averages :)

[Kyp]

It is done. Big thanks to rothaer! :D K13 New Year gift.


German_Saxony,37.14,34.35,13.58,5.86,5.61,0.87,1.0 8,0.06,0.25,0.58,0.30,0.14,0.17
German_Upper_Swabia,41.54,22.90,15.28,6.77,10.64,0 .68,0.72,0.27,0.41,0.34,0.39,0.00,0.05
German_Saxony-Anhalt_south,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_Central_Hesse,41.92,26.21,14.96,8.9,5.73,0. 87,0,0.9,0,0,0.45,0.05,0
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Lower_Franconia,41.02,24.79,15.76,6.57,8.84 ,0.72,0.67,0.15,0.00,0.82,0.04,0.53,0.08
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony,39.15,31.43,12.59,6.21 ,7.42,1.47,0.00,0.03,0.15,0.02,0.00,1.12,0.39
German_Saarland,43.97,19.91,19.32,7.13,6.82,0.88,1 .54,0.00,0.00,0.19,0.00,0.26,0.00
German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_North_Rhine,43.32,22.19,15.70,7.63,8.21,0.7 1,0.91,0.15,0.26,0.14,0.38,0.26,0.15
German_North_Baden,41.05,22.09,17.19,6.37,10.17,0. 35,0.68,0.38,0.58,0.17,0.53,0.28,0.16
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_Farther_Pomerania,39.85,37.28,9.79,5.50,2.7 7,1.10,1.82,0.00,0.07,0.45,0.35,1.02,0.04
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52 ,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0
German_Lower_Saxony_north,50.86,28.10,10.10,5.94,2 .03,0.00,1.50,0.78,0.00,0.18,0.48,0.03,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_south,48.89,25.02,11.37,6.26,4 .56,0.58,1.97,0.00,0.24,0.31,0.05,0.16,0.58
German_Westphalia,49.31,25.15,11.25,7.18,3.97,0.69 ,0.72,0.18,0.07,0.79,0.10,0.10,0.50
German_West_Prussia,35.60,39.30,11.20,6.60,4.18,0. 25,0.89,0.00,0.68,0.34,0.47,0.00,0.48
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.42,21.25,16.46,7.21,8.90,1.51,0.02,0 .20,1.11,0.20,0.23,0.33,0.16
Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12, 0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Schleswig-Holstein,49.59,28.21,13.33,5.42,0,1.79,0,1.19,0,0, 0,0,0.47
German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
Austrian_Carinthia,34.35,34.42,13.15,3.82,10.84,1. 04,1.43,0,0.39,0,0.11,0.1,0

Distance to: Mother(Lower_Franconia)
3.31728805 German_Lower_Franconia
3.51957384 German_Central_Hesse
4.38505416 Austrian_Upper_Austria
4.40295355 Austrian
4.73492344 German_Bavaria_proper
5.25397944 French_Alsace
5.68814557 German_North_Bohemia
5.78847994 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
5.93646359 German_Upper_Swabia
6.11973856 German_County_Glatz
6.20115312 German_South_Hesse
6.21578635 German_North_Rhine
6.25196769 Swiss_German
6.35897004 German_North_Baden
6.76110198 German_Rhineland-Palatinate
7.06093478 Afrikaner
7.14986713 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
7.32492321 Belgian
7.38554670 Flemish
7.40425553 Pennsylvania_Dutch
7.44330572 Austrian_Lower_Austria
7.63902481 Dutch_South
7.65245059 German_North_Hesse
7.65422759 French_Northeast
7.78628281 German_Bavarian_Swabia

[rothaer]

I can see the Frisian average is a bit out there and based on one sample, I'd recommend using this one too.


Nordfriesland1 49.66 27.9 10.41 3.62 3.86 0.74 1.43 0 1.66 0.58 0 0 0.13 T381963

A few others that I don't know if you used or not. If any of the kits/gedcoms are no longer working I'm pretty sure I checked them myself.

Schleswig-Holstein

SH1 50.67 25.39 11.43 4.89 5.44 0.13 0 0.08 0 0.69 0.72 0.38 0.17 T166457
SH2 54.08 26.84 10.79 1.49 2.49 2.1 1.18 0 0 0 0.36 0.45 0.22 H583226
SH3 49.58 28.9 10.42 4.84 3.98 0 0.83 0.18 0 1.27 0 0 0 T717539

Hamburg

Hamburg1 48.79 26.74 9.26 5.84 5.41 0 0.66 0 0.29 1.79 0.95 0.27 0 H150101
Hamburg2 44.14 28.51 14.42 4.75 5.54 0 0 0.2 0.41 1.2 0 0.17 0.65 H934074

Thanks for these!

I checked them with the following results:

Nordfriesland kit is not in the data base (btw. Frisians are minorioty in North Frisland, so it would be expected to be an non-Frisian, even if indigenous).

SH1 is half from NRW according to the GEDCOM.
SH2 is good and even from Schleswig part only.
SH3 is good and can be said Schleswig-Holstein in general.

Hamburg1 has two parents from Hamburg, but the grandparents are not visible from where they are, even if partly died in Hamburg.
Hamburg2 has no GEDCOM.

To keep the current confidence level of the data I'll use and add SH2 and SH3. :thumb001:

[rothaer]

This is really great. Thanks, Stearsolina and rothaer. It looks like Vorpommern is heavily Germanic? (...) And Hinterpommern, although predictably more Slavic than Vorpommern, is only about half Slavic. Do we know where in Hinterpommern the samples came from?

In the whole of Pomerania the more coastal areas with heavy soils were more settled by Germans in the middle ages than the inland and Vorpommern is a rather "coastal" part, so it is elevated Germanic, maybe even more then the average of Mecklenburg.

The Hinterpommern references are from Regenwalde area and from Lauenburg/Stolp area, so you can say half from the center and half from the east.

[rothaer]

First me and then 5 children with an untested wife1. You can see that wife1 will not have notably deviated in her ancestry composition from me - though our both ancestry actually is regionally diverse. In all following results I for curiosity emphasize my three closest pops.

Distance to: rothaer
4.39591856 German_Farther_Pomerania
4.63551507 German_Saxony
5.22375344 German_West_Prussia
7.38247926 German_North_Bohemia
7.39816869 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
7.59100784 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
8.97856336 German_West_Mecklenburg
8.99742185 Austrian_Carinthia
9.32889061 German_County_Glatz
9.43978813 Austrian
9.53106500 German_Hither_Pomerania
9.59444110 Upper_Silesia
10.20698780 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
11.40726085 German
12.87113826 German_Central_Hesse
14.28801596 German_Lower_Franconia
14.63136699 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
14.91730874 German_Schleswig-Holstein
15.29800967 Austrian_Upper_Austria
15.42379655 German_Bavaria_proper
15.48067505 German_Hamburg
15.78507523 German_Bavarian_Swabia
15.96985598 German_Lower_Saxony_north
16.27794213 German_Lower_Saxony_south
16.55760248 German_Westphalia

Distance to: rothaer_child1
4.03254262 German_Farther_Pomerania
4.45911426 German_West_Prussia
5.52650884 German_Saxony
8.54861977 German_North_Bohemia
8.60455693 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
8.82580874 German_West_Mecklenburg
8.89263178 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
9.14788500 Upper_Silesia
9.67908570 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
9.68163726 German_Hither_Pomerania
9.85894011 German_County_Glatz
10.62272564 Austrian
10.84578720 Austrian_Carinthia
12.39298592 German
13.30823429 German_Central_Hesse
14.31370672 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
14.93501925 German_Schleswig-Holstein
15.33886893 German_Lower_Franconia
15.93775392 Austrian_Upper_Austria
16.04737985 German_Lower_Saxony_north
16.11803958 German_Hamburg
16.66465721 German_Bavaria_proper
16.80377041 German_Bavarian_Swabia
16.83877965 German_Lower_Saxony_south
16.86918789 German_Westphalia

Distance to: rothaer_child2
3.83313188 German_Saxony
4.99533783 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
5.16914887 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
5.29608346 German_North_Bohemia
5.31275823 German_Farther_Pomerania
7.40411372 German_West_Prussia
7.50016666 Austrian
7.53910472 German_West_Mecklenburg
7.70948118 German_Hither_Pomerania
7.81140832 German_County_Glatz
8.57680010 German
8.59918019 Austrian_Carinthia
10.31723316 German_Central_Hesse
11.49710833 German_Lower_Franconia
12.06489121 Upper_Silesia
12.65126081 Austrian_Upper_Austria
12.77264264 German_Schleswig-Holstein
12.81313389 German_Bavaria_proper
12.94589896 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
13.45195897 German_Hamburg
13.79381383 German_Lower_Saxony_south
13.88057996 German_Upper_Swabia
13.88482985 German_Bavarian_Swabia
13.91483381 German_Lower_Saxony_north
14.05719389 German_Westphalia

Distance to: rothaer_child3
4.06922597 German_Farther_Pomerania
4.96216687 German_Saxony
5.00148978 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
5.55533077 German_West_Mecklenburg
5.83170644 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
5.99965832 German_Hither_Pomerania
6.33344298 German_North_Bohemia
7.03881382 German_West_Prussia
8.63228243 Austrian
8.74885707 German_County_Glatz
8.88615215 German
9.92126504 Austrian_Carinthia
10.57280947 German_Central_Hesse
11.69280976 Upper_Silesia
12.28488502 German_Schleswig-Holstein
12.29930486 German_Lower_Franconia
12.34646508 German_Hamburg
12.54442904 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
12.73005106 German_Lower_Saxony_north
13.09472795 German_Lower_Saxony_south
13.23633257 German_Westphalia
13.31837828 Austrian_Upper_Austria
13.61580699 German_Bavaria_proper
14.49758256 German_Upper_Swabia
14.66593672 German_North_Rhine

Distance to: rothaer_child4
4.64303780 German_West_Prussia
4.67099561 German_Saxony
5.70549735 German_Farther_Pomerania
7.91513740 German_North_Bohemia
8.43240772 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
9.02860454 Upper_Silesia
9.15878813 Austrian_Carinthia
9.16008734 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
9.18546678 German_County_Glatz
9.56253105 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
9.84235744 Austrian
10.72239712 German_West_Mecklenburg
11.26579780 German_Hither_Pomerania
12.55881364 German
12.93568321 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
13.62324484 German_Central_Hesse
14.99445898 German_Lower_Franconia
15.53151635 German_Bavarian_Swabia
15.89257374 Austrian_Upper_Austria
16.16826831 German_Bavaria_proper
16.18516296 German_Schleswig-Holstein
16.78143617 Austrian_Lower_Austria
16.85802183 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
17.43660231 German_Hamburg
17.45181366 German_Upper_Swabia

Distance to: rothaer_child5
1.72667310 German_Saxony
4.02981389 German_North_Bohemia
4.53081670 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
5.54261671 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
5.58616147 German_County_Glatz
6.00054997 German_West_Prussia
6.01259511 German_Farther_Pomerania
6.09934423 Austrian
7.33570719 Austrian_Carinthia
8.42286175 German_Hither_Pomerania
8.71751111 German_West_Mecklenburg
8.99894438 German
9.91852812 German_Central_Hesse
10.86709253 Upper_Silesia
11.17957960 German_Lower_Franconia
12.24194021 German_Bavaria_proper
12.27292141 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
12.34092379 German_Bavarian_Swabia
12.34878537 Austrian_Upper_Austria
13.51479930 German_Upper_Swabia
13.57643547 Austrian_Lower_Austria
14.12939489 German_North_Rhine
14.30709964 German_North_Baden
14.30770771 German_South_Hesse
14.44287714 German_Schleswig-Holstein

Then wife2 that is fully from Mecklenburg and three children with her:

Distance to: rothaer_wife2
3.14671257 German_West_Mecklenburg
5.53250395 German_Hither_Pomerania
6.95854151 German_Hamburg
7.46111922 German_Lower_Saxony_north
8.62310269 German_Farther_Pomerania
8.68092737 German_Schleswig-Holstein
9.13161541 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
10.24599434 German_Westphalia
10.40977425 German_Lower_Saxony_south
10.94814139 German
11.34369869 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
12.04457554 German_Frisian
12.21476975 German_Saxony
12.36447330 German_North_Bohemia
12.99753053 German_Central_Hesse
13.49674035 German_West_Prussia
14.46644393 Austrian
15.10072184 German_County_Glatz
15.36294243 German_Lower_Franconia
15.74110860 Austrian_Upper_Austria
16.19790110 German_North_Rhine
16.55631602 German_North_Hesse
16.63038785 Austrian_Carinthia
16.96791973 German_Bavaria_proper
17.01258946 German_Upper_Swabia

Distance to: rothaer_child6
4.22454731 German_Hither_Pomerania
4.30192980 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
4.49944441 German_West_Mecklenburg
5.33168829 German_Farther_Pomerania
5.50095446 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
5.93100329 German_Saxony
6.30142841 German_North_Bohemia
7.15111180 German
8.21196688 Austrian
8.95963169 German_County_Glatz
8.99971111 German_Central_Hesse
9.00887340 German_West_Prussia
10.49606117 German_Schleswig-Holstein
10.54063091 German_Hamburg
10.78325554 Austrian_Carinthia
10.80719668 German_Lower_Saxony_north
10.92746997 German_Lower_Saxony_south
10.98214915 German_Lower_Franconia
11.20326738 German_Westphalia
11.75162542 Austrian_Upper_Austria
12.40273760 German_Bavaria_proper
12.91952011 German_North_Rhine
13.07255140 German_Upper_Swabia
13.58196598 German_North_Hesse
13.73664078 Upper_Silesia

Distance to: rothaer_child7
4.48001116 German_West_Mecklenburg
5.03791624 German_Farther_Pomerania
6.36616839 German_Hither_Pomerania
7.40716545 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
9.02577974 German_Saxony
9.29793525 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
9.88812925 German_West_Prussia
10.04434667 German_North_Bohemia
10.04861184 German_Hamburg
10.71086831 German
11.02805513 German_Lower_Saxony_north
11.20704243 German_Schleswig-Holstein
12.34735194 Austrian
12.64092164 German_Lower_Saxony_south
12.89487107 German_Westphalia
12.98726684 German_County_Glatz
13.05628201 German_Central_Hesse
13.20976533 Austrian_Carinthia
13.72945738 Upper_Silesia
13.79871371 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
14.89723800 German_Lower_Franconia
15.42720649 German_Frisian
15.76489772 Austrian_Upper_Austria
16.34288836 German_Bavaria_proper
16.58869193 German_North_Rhine

Distance to: rothaer_child8
4.72751520 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
5.60928694 German_Farther_Pomerania
5.90359213 German_West_Mecklenburg
6.07735962 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
6.32896516 German_Hither_Pomerania
6.38786349 German_Saxony
6.98406758 German_North_Bohemia
8.68292577 German
8.83026613 German_West_Prussia
9.11093848 Austrian
9.93182763 German_County_Glatz
9.97932863 Austrian_Carinthia
11.00087269 German_Central_Hesse
11.28257506 German_Hamburg
11.97380892 German_Schleswig-Holstein
12.24686082 German_Lower_Franconia
12.39578557 German_Lower_Saxony_north
12.64854932 German_Lower_Saxony_south
12.94699965 German_Westphalia
12.97134149 Upper_Silesia
13.43104985 German_Bavaria_proper
13.48906594 Austrian_Upper_Austria
13.80759211 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
14.18812179 German_Upper_Swabia
14.26900137 German_North_Hesse

[J. Ketch]

Thanks for these!

I checked them with the following results:

Nordfriesland kit is not in the data base (btw. Frisians are minorioty in North Frisland, so it would be expected to be an non-Frisian, even if indigenous).

SH1 is half from NRW according to the GEDCOM.
SH2 is good and even from Schleswig part only.
SH3 is good and can be said Schleswig-Holstein in general.

Hamburg1 has two parents from Hamburg, but the granbdparents are not visible from where they are, even if partly died in Hamburg.
Hamburg2 has no GEDCOM.

To keep the current confidence level of the data I'll use and add SH2 and SH3. :thumb001:
I appreciate the desire to be strict, with regards to the Nordfriesland one I'm quite certain it was from one of the small islands. I posted it earlier in the thread when it was still working.


Nordfriesland (from one of the islands IIRC)

K13

1 North_Atlantic 49.66
2 Baltic 27.9
3 West_Med 10.41
4 East_Med 3.86
5 West_Asian 3.62
6 Siberian 1.66
7 South_Asian 1.43
8 Red_Sea 0.74
9 Amerindian 0.58
10 Sub-Saharan 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Danish 2.71
2 North_Dutch 3.18
3 Norwegian 3.28
4 North_German 4.11
5 Swedish 4.35
6 Orcadian 4.41
7 Irish 5.75
8 Southeast_English 5.76
9 West_Scottish 6.04
10 Southwest_English 7.38
11 South_Dutch 9.08
12 North_Swedish 9.61
13 West_German 9.86
14 East_German 12.42
15 Austrian 12.68
16 French 15.09
17 Hungarian 16.76
18 Southwest_Finnish 17.67
19 South_Polish 20.97
20 Croatian 22.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.5% Southeast_English + 36.5% North_Swedish @ 2
2 70.5% Orcadian + 29.5% North_Swedish @ 2.01
3 84.2% Danish + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 2.07
4 91% Danish + 9% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.08
5 81.9% Orcadian + 18.1% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.13
6 94.2% Danish + 5.8% East_Finnish @ 2.16
7 93.6% Danish + 6.4% Finnish @ 2.19
8 86% Orcadian + 14% Finnish @ 2.23
9 58.8% Swedish + 41.2% Southeast_English @ 2.27
10 94.5% Danish + 5.5% Estonian @ 2.28
11 75.8% West_Scottish + 24.2% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.3
12 87.8% Orcadian + 12.2% East_Finnish @ 2.32
13 96.9% Danish + 3.1% Mari @ 2.32
14 81.1% North_Dutch + 18.9% North_Swedish @ 2.32
15 89% North_Dutch + 11% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.33
16 98.2% Danish + 1.8% Selkup @ 2.34
17 98.2% Danish + 1.8% Ket @ 2.36
18 73.3% Danish + 26.7% Swedish @ 2.37
19 62.6% West_Scottish + 37.4% North_Swedish @ 2.37
20 92.8% North_Dutch + 7.2% East_Finnish @ 2.38

K15

1 North_Sea 37.41
2 Atlantic 26.06
3 Baltic 13.73
4 Eastern_Euro 10.49
5 West_Med 6.99
6 West_Asian 2.13
7 South_Asian 1.08
8 Siberian 0.99
9 Red_Sea 0.58
10 Amerindian 0.36
11 East_Med 0.12
12 Sub-Saharan 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 2.87
2 Norwegian 3.35
3 Danish 3.43
4 Swedish 4.32
5 West_Norwegian 4.97
6 West_Scottish 5.22
7 North_German 5.31
8 Irish 5.35
9 Southeast_English 6.07
10 Orcadian 6.1
11 Southwest_English 6.76
12 North_Swedish 7.1
13 West_German 9.1
14 South_Dutch 9.3
15 East_German 11.86
16 Southwest_Finnish 12.55
17 French 14.05
18 Finnish 15.62
19 Hungarian 16.42
20 Austrian 16.88

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.5% Orcadian + 21.5% Estonian @ 1.59
2 75.9% North_Dutch + 24.1% North_Swedish @ 1.86
3 88.9% Swedish + 11.1% French_Basque @ 1.91
4 91.8% Norwegian + 8.2% French_Basque @ 1.93
5 82.9% Orcadian + 17.1% Lithuanian @ 1.94
6 88.1% North_Dutch + 11.9% Finnish @ 1.95
7 56.4% Swedish + 43.6% Irish @ 1.96
8 64.6% Norwegian + 35.4% Irish @ 1.96
9 85.6% North_Dutch + 14.4% Southwest_Finnish @ 1.97
10 57.8% Irish + 42.2% North_Swedish @ 1.99
11 91% North_Dutch + 9% East_Finnish @ 2.02
12 60% Swedish + 40% Southeast_English @ 2.02
13 55.8% Swedish + 44.2% West_Scottish @ 2.03
14 62.9% Swedish + 37.1% Southwest_English @ 2.06
15 91.6% North_Dutch + 8.4% Estonian @ 2.07
16 57.4% North_Dutch + 42.6% Norwegian @ 2.13
17 65.4% Norwegian + 34.6% North_German @ 2.16
18 68.4% Orcadian + 31.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.17
19 58.7% West_Scottish + 41.3% North_Swedish @ 2.18
20 66.9% North_Dutch + 33.1% Swedish @ 2.2

[Peterski]

Hinterpommern references are from Regenwalde area and from Lauenburg/Stolp area

Let me guess, they form 2 distinct clusters, with only Lauenburg/Stolp being very Slavic.

I have Hinterpommern samples from here (the markers show birthplaces of ancestors):

https://i.imgur.com/obXsRwl.png

And another one from here (Person #2) - and both of them are rather Germanic-shifted:

https://i.imgur.com/ucmhrEr.png

^^^
Person #2 - K13 results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 39.69
2 Baltic 36.35
3 West_Med 11.11
4 West_Asian 7.11
5 South_Asian 2
6 East_Med 1.93
7 Sub-Saharan 1.35
8 Red_Sea 0.33
9 Northeast_African 0.07
10 Oceanian 0.07

I cannot check Person #1 results now because of GEDmatch error:

AJAX error: Internal Server ErrorText Status: error Response Text: An internal server error occurred. Please try again later.

[rothaer]

I appreciate the desire to be strict, with regards to the Nordfriesland one I'm quite certain it was from one of the small islands. I posted it earlier in the thread when it was still working.

Maybe it has to be said that Friesland does not automatically mean Frisians. Ethnic Frisians live in Frisland in the Netherlands, also called West Frisia, and in North Frisland, which is in NW Schleswig-Holstein. But Frisians are there just a minority, also in the Islands. So if you have an indigenous individual from an island in North Frisia, the probabillity that it is a non_Frisian is high. They might be Saxons or other Germans or one or another also a Dane. The individual could be used for Schleswig-Holstein if the pedigree supports it farther back.

Btw. there is also Ostfriesland (East Frisland) in Lower Saxony that is bordering the Frisland in the Netherlands. But these "Ostfriesen" and their language (ostfriesisch) are actually not Frisian. They are Germanised and the ancestry proportion of Frisians is not known to me.

[Peterski]

Maybe it has to be said that Friesland does not automatically mean Frisians. Ethnic Frisians live in Frisland in the Netherlands, also called West Frisia, and in North Frisland, which is in NW Schleswig-Holstein. But Frisians are there just a minority, also in the Islands. So if you have an indigenous individual from an Island in North Frisia, the probabillity that it is a non_Frisian is high. They might be Saxons or other Germans or one or another also a Dane. The individual could be used for Schleswig-Holstein if the pedigree supports it farther back.
Btw. there is also Ostfriesland (East Frisland) in Lower Saxony that is bordering the Frisland in Netherlands. But these "Ostfriesen" and their language (ostfriesisch) are actually not Frisian. They are Germanised and the ancestry proportion of Frisians is not known to me.

This is why we have a function called "email", and we can email people from GEDmatch and ask them questions.

I emailed T381963 (long ago) and I got a response that T381963 is only half Frisian, but T802916 is fully Frisian:

https://i.imgur.com/7z7cIVH.png

But I did not save Eurogenes K13 for this kit, and now I can't check because GEDmatch is not working currently.

[rothaer]

(...)
Person #2 - K13 results:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 39.69
2 Baltic 36.35
3 West_Med 11.11
4 West_Asian 7.11
5 South_Asian 2
6 East_Med 1.93
7 Sub-Saharan 1.35
8 Red_Sea 0.33
9 Northeast_African 0.07
10 Oceanian 0.07

I cannot check Person #1 results now because of GEDmatch error:

AJAX error: Internal Server ErrorText Status: error Response Text: An internal server error occurred. Please try again later.

You got the requested West Prussian kits with information and kit numbers from me within 5 minutes. Your behaviour sinces days regarding the references is incredible. Do you think I'm a trained dog that is willing to jump after sticks that you throw? I'll not take part in this theater. Keep your important secrets for yourself and have a nice day.

[Jana]

@Peterski^^^^you don't need to explain who is fully Frisian, we have that kit already.

Your total lack of fair play, unwillingness to share data you have for whole community (except for fat counter favors), your intentional releasing of promised samples immediately AFTER we release the averages (and knowing it will be unnecessary hard to upgrade samples now) shows your intentions which are everything but fair.

Not to mention you got kit numbers from rothaer days ago but did not share what you have at all. And you don't need to. You lied to do what you did not, and do not pretend to be benevolent.

You won't be begged for samples especially considering rothaer gave many of them to you years ago, we'll get them anyway. And don't expect any more samples and information coming your way, because it won't.

[rothaer]

This is why we have a function called "email", and we can email people from GEDmatch and ask them questions.

I emailed T381963 (long ago) and I got a response that T381963 is only half Frisian, but T802916 is fully Frisian:

This is exactly why I don't use samples (f. i. T381963) that I can not judge.

And the kit # T802916 is what we have for Frisian already, as the results unveil to you.

[Peterski]

"You won't be begged for samples especially considering rothaer gave many of them to you years ago"

First I gave him all of German data that I had at that time. It seems you like to have selective memory.

And this fully North Frisian sample's results I showed to Rothaer already in my email from 29 Apr 2020.

"unwillingness to share data you have"

I don't collect K13 data. And GEDmatch K13 stopped working after Christmas, and still doesn't work.

[Jana]

"You won't be begged for samples especially considering rothaer gave many of them to you years ago"

First I gave him all of German data that I had at that time. It seems you like to have selective memory.

And this fully North Frisian sample's results I showed to Rothaer already in my email from 29 Apr 2020.

"unwillingness to share data you have"

I don't collect K13 data.

Don't play innocent, please. We are also not collecting only K13, this was just a start. Future goals include making of averages for other calculators, especially K36 and some others.
That's why kit numbers are inherently more valuable to share than naked K13 data.

People posting here know what you are like anyway. I conclude this topic now though.

[Peterski]

Not to mention you got kit numbers from rothaer days ago but did not share what you have at all.
That's why kit numbers are inherently more valuable to share than naked K13 data.

You actually did not want to exchange kit numbers, here is your rep comment:

https://i.imgur.com/EdWpLtm.png

I got kit numbers from Rothaer because he asked me to check how they compare to my K36 averages.

And Rothaer did not know about your mean and unpleasant reputation comment.

Me and Rothaer always (since year 2017) exchange also kit numbers, there is no problem with that...

[Jana]

You actually did not want to exchange kit numbers, here is your rep comment:

https://i.imgur.com/EdWpLtm.png

I got kit numbers from Rothaer because he asked me to check how they compare to my K36 averages.

And Rothaer did not know about your mean and unpleasant reputation comment.

Me and Rothaer always exchange also kit numbers, there is no problem with that.

Yes, I don't have kit numbers but if I had I would not share them with you. Because it was not given to me and I am not authorized to share private information like that. Rothaer has the kit numbers, I deal with admixture values. And he shared with you west Prussian kit numbers, after which your DID NOT do the same, but you released just K13 values (of long promised samples) intentionally 10 minutes after averages were out.

I know you well, and I would not share anything with you even if I could, because I consider you to be in mala fides (bad faith). Plenty of past and present evidence to hold such views.

[Peterski]

And he shared with you west Prussian kit numbers, after which your DID NOT do the same, but you released just K13 values

To be honest, for Brieg Germans and Braunsberg German I have also raw data files, not only kit numbers.

And I checked their K13 values offline, from raw data files. GEDmatch does not work properly recently.

You keep bashing me that I did not check K13 values on 27-28 December when GEDmatch still worked, but I was busy with other things.

[Jana]

To be honest, for Brieg Germans and Braunsberg German I have also raw data files, not only kit numbers.

And I checked their K13 values offline, from raw data files. GEDmatch does not work properly recently.

You keep bashing me that I did not check K13 values on 27-28 December when GEDmatch still worked, but I was busy with other things.

Interesting how you were not busy anymore on new year day 10 minutes after samples were out, and than magically you decide to share K13 values of these few samples. Interesting timing, as always.

[Jana]

Dec 27


Who is collecting them?

BTW, German user Simon_W from AG has a grandmother with 4/4 grandparents from East Prussia (precisely - Kreis Braunsberg / Braniewo County), and she scores similar as Rothaer's wife (who is from Schwerin area - Western Mecklenburg). Around 2/3 proto Germanic + 1/3 Balto-Slavic.


Rothaer and me.

Post her K13 please. I don't think we have her.


Her, it is grandmother of Simon_W.

I will post it later today (afternoon).

Than rothaer sent him several west Prussian kits he asked for, immediately and with kit numbers.

Dec 27


From which counties / Kreise of West Prussia and Upper Silesia?

Okay, I will post.

Now I'm on my phone, I will be back home later today.

two days after, Dec 29


Where are your promised samples? Not the first time you don't keep your word.


GEDmatch stopped working, when I try to check kits in calculators, I get:

"AJAX error: Internal Server ErrorText Status: error Response Text: An internal server error occurred. Please try again later."


You promised to post two days ago, and gedmatch worked perfectly than.


Why don't you just tell Stearsolina the GEDmatch number(s)?

You got the 4 new ones from me gladly, immediately and without any begging.

Of course he did not share any data on Dec 28, Dec 29, Dec 30 and Dec 31 either. No, he shared it yesterday (without kit numbers), minutes after we released German averages.

No more dealing with him. Amen.

[Peterski]

Interesting timing

^^^ If you like conspiracy theories...

[Peterski]

No more dealing with him. Amen.

You have been mean to me at least since 2019 or 2018, so don't pretend that now we have a conflict because of kit numbers, LOL.

[Peterski]

Of course he did not share any data on Dec 28, Dec 29, Dec 30 and Dec 31 either. No, he shared it yesterday (without kit numbers)

No, I shared (via Gmail) the Braunsberg German kit with Rothaer exactly on Wednesday, 31 July 2019, 21:03 (Polish time). :)

I will bump it now so he can see in his gmail Inbox.

[Jana]

You have been mean to me at least since 2019 or 2018, so don't pretend that now we have a conflict because of kit numbers, LOL.

Because of your anti-Croatian views, but in general you behaved badly towards whole genetic community on TA because of your personal conflict with Lucas.
Which is why you didn't share data to improve Vahaduo, and you didn't even make Polish regional averages but foreigners like vbnethkio had to collect Polish data and all.

You put your personal animosity in front of community interest, and you generally behave in bad faith (like towards Teutone).

[Lucas]

It is done. Big thanks to rothaer! :D K13 New Year gift.


German_Saxony,37.14,34.35,13.58,5.86,5.61,0.87,1.0 8,0.06,0.25,0.58,0.30,0.14,0.17
German_Upper_Swabia,41.54,22.90,15.28,6.77,10.64,0 .68,0.72,0.27,0.41,0.34,0.39,0.00,0.05
German_Saxony-Anhalt_south,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_Central_Hesse,41.92,26.21,14.96,8.9,5.73,0. 87,0,0.9,0,0,0.45,0.05,0
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Lower_Franconia,41.02,24.79,15.76,6.57,8.84 ,0.72,0.67,0.15,0.00,0.82,0.04,0.53,0.08
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony,39.15,31.43,12.59,6.21 ,7.42,1.47,0.00,0.03,0.15,0.02,0.00,1.12,0.39
German_Saarland,43.97,19.91,19.32,7.13,6.82,0.88,1 .54,0.00,0.00,0.19,0.00,0.26,0.00
German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_North_Rhine,43.32,22.19,15.70,7.63,8.21,0.7 1,0.91,0.15,0.26,0.14,0.38,0.26,0.15
German_North_Baden,41.05,22.09,17.19,6.37,10.17,0. 35,0.68,0.38,0.58,0.17,0.53,0.28,0.16
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_Farther_Pomerania,39.85,37.28,9.79,5.50,2.7 7,1.10,1.82,0.00,0.07,0.45,0.35,1.02,0.04
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52 ,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0
German_Lower_Saxony_north,50.86,28.10,10.10,5.94,2 .03,0.00,1.50,0.78,0.00,0.18,0.48,0.03,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_south,48.89,25.02,11.37,6.26,4 .56,0.58,1.97,0.00,0.24,0.31,0.05,0.16,0.58
German_Westphalia,49.31,25.15,11.25,7.18,3.97,0.69 ,0.72,0.18,0.07,0.79,0.10,0.10,0.50
German_West_Prussia,35.60,39.30,11.20,6.60,4.18,0. 25,0.89,0.00,0.68,0.34,0.47,0.00,0.48
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.42,21.25,16.46,7.21,8.90,1.51,0.02,0 .20,1.11,0.20,0.23,0.33,0.16
Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12, 0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Schleswig-Holstein,49.59,28.21,13.33,5.42,0,1.79,0,1.19,0,0, 0,0,0.47
German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
Austrian_Carinthia,34.35,34.42,13.15,3.82,10.84,1. 04,1.43,0,0.39,0,0.11,0.1,0

Interesting collection I will add to K13 later. But I'm not sure such granularity is needed we have here rather bigger regions only.

[Peterski]

Because of your anti-Croatian views, but in general you behaved badly towards whole genetic community on TA because of your personal conflict with Lucas.
Which is why you didn't share data to improve Vahaduo, and you didn't even make Polish regional averages but foreigners like vbnethkio had to collect Polish data and all.

You put your personal animosity in front of community interest, and you generally behave in bad faith (like towards Teutone).

LMAO, Lucas himself did not share any data to improve Vahaduo. He relies fully on data from other users.

Sure, I did not want to be a slave working for Lucas for no money, collecting data for him. But I still did contribute modestly to it (some averages are from me).

But remember that Lucas used the data all of you collected for him in yourDNAportal and DNAGenics.

So while it is true that Vahaduo is free-of-charge, he also used this data also in paid services.

And now he deleted all of your Global25 custom calculators, he wasted so much of your time, LOL.


Because of your anti-Croatian views

Not sure what do you mean - I don't have anti-Croatian views.

[Jana]

another fair play move from Peterska, posted on Dec 29 (wasn't gedmatch not working than?? hahaha - that's what he claimed as excuse for not posting what he promised)

https://i.imgur.com/n3SUPQF.png

Of course he posted K15, but not K13, knowing we can't use K15 and need K13 values. And of course he did not share what he promised on Dec 27 that day either, when he posted this sample "by accident"

He wants to be needed and depended on, and to be begged for mercy to share data he has, just bits and pieces of it, when and if he feels like it.

No more. You got exposed. Bye!

[Jana]

Interesting collection I will add to K13 later. But I'm not sure such granularity is needed we have here rather bigger regions only.

I think it's very good because there are large genetic differences inside these bigger regions, like among "East Germans" for example. And let's not forget Germany is most populous fully European country, with extremely long history of decentralization and many small, unique entities which reflects in genetics.

[Peterski]

another fair play move from Peterska, posted on Dec 29 (wasn't gedmatch not working than??

It wasn't working - I copied those results from my email to Rothaer dated Sat, 23 May 2020, 01:23.

K13 results were not included in that email.

It is probably the same kit that you are currently using as Memelland referencce, or maybe another.

[Jana]

It wasn't working - I copied those results from my email to Rothaer dated Sat, 23 May 2020, 01:23.

K13 results were not included in that email.

Ok.

[Jana]

LMAO, Lucas himself did not share any data to improve Vahaduo. He relies fully on data from other users.

Sure, I did not want to be a slave working for Lucas for no money, collecting data for him. But I still did contribute modestly to it (some averages are from me).

But remember that Lucas used the data all of you collected for him in yourDNAportal and DNAGenics.

So while it is true that Vahaduo is free-of-charge, he also used this data on paid websites.

And now he deleted all of your Global25 custom calculators, he wasted so much of your time, LOL.

Not sure what do you mean - I don't have anti-Croatian views.

I don't mind contributing for free, this is not my profession. As far as I heard, you had high paid job for one genetic company, so you were not in need for money, and it would be normal and expected (to me at last), to contribute for free in your spare time. Lucas always behaved correct towards other users, I don't mind him having paid services while at the same time he runs Vahaduo for free so we can chose what we need (free or paid).

I remember you posting harmful maps about my ethnicity claiming we are Catholic Serbs and expressing similar non friendly sentiments.

[J. Ketch]

Interesting collection I will add to K13 later. But I'm not sure such granularity is needed we have here rather bigger regions only.
Any chance of a separate sheet for smaller regions? I would like to add the smaller British Isles & Dutch regional averages I have, but I prefer to keep them separate from the more solid major regions they're part of.

[rothaer]

another fair play move from Peterska, posted on Dec 29 (wasn't gedmatch not working than?? hahaha - that's what he claimed as excuse for not posting what he promised)

https://i.imgur.com/n3SUPQF.png

Of course he posted K15, but not K13, knowing we can't use K15 and need K13 values. And of course he did not share what he promised on Dec 27 that day either, when he posted this sample "by accident"

He wants to be needed and depended on, and to be begged for mercy to share data he has, just bits and pieces of it, when and if he feels like it.

No more. You got exposed. Bye!

I can not even understand why at all is discussed if GEDmatch works. Peterska could just have sent the Kit numbers - like I did - and that's it.

[Leto]

Berlin & Hamburg

North_Atlantic 33.86 Pct
Baltic 33.81 Pct
West_Med 15.45 Pct
West_Asian 4.07 Pct
East_Med 6.66 Pct
Red_Sea 0.94 Pct
South_Asian 2.15 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.71 Pct
Amerindian 1.41 Pct
Oceanian 0.95 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 4.3
2 Hungarian 5.67
3 Austrian 5.99
4 Croatian 7.59
5 South_Polish 9.26
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.15
7 Moldavian 10.2
8 Ukrainian 10.95
9 Polish 12.13
10 Serbian 12.45
11 North_Swedish 13.2
12 West_German 13.31
13 Southwest_Finnish 13.93
14 South_Dutch 14.12
15 North_German 14.18
16 Swedish 14.94
17 Southwest_Russian 15.51
18 Russian_Smolensk 15.52
19 Estonian_Polish 15.87
20 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.8% Polish + 32.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.01
2 65.9% Polish + 34.1% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.09
3 64.5% Russian_Smolensk + 35.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.11
4 53.3% Lithuanian + 46.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.13
5 70.1% Polish + 29.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.19
6 60% Russian_Smolensk + 40% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.19
7 55.4% Lithuanian + 44.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.21
8 59.4% Estonian_Polish + 40.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.27
9 57.2% Lithuanian + 42.8% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.27
10 68.1% Polish + 31.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.3
11 68.6% Polish + 31.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.31
12 62.1% Russian_Smolensk + 37.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.32
13 61.7% Russian_Smolensk + 38.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.33
14 55.8% Lithuanian + 44.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.35
15 69.4% Polish + 30.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.36
16 64% Estonian_Polish + 36% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.37
17 61.5% Ukrainian + 38.5% French @ 2.4
18 67.5% Polish + 32.5% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.42
19 56.3% Lithuanian + 43.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.43
20 73.4% South_Polish + 26.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.44

[mariusz99]

My results without East and West Prussia and Basque, Spain and Portugese. This results show my basic Slavic part + northern German distant ancestry.

Target: MARIUSZ_KORICINSKI
Distance: 2.3664% / 2.36642494
52.2 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
20.5 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
13.9 German_Schleswig-Holstein
6.7 Estonian
3.0 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
1.7 Russian_Pskov
1.5 Chamar
0.5 Maya

Without Brandenburg 2 possibilities:


Target: MARIUSZ_KORICINSKI
Distance: 2.9309% / 2.93090455
45.8 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
30.6 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
13.0 Austrian_Lower_Austria
9.9 Polish_Silesia
0.5 Chamar
0.2 Maya

Target: MARIUSZ_KORICINSKI
Distance: 2.9735% / 2.97348440
30.9 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
30.7 Polish_Silesia
28.1 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
9.6 German_Saarland
0.4 Chamar
0.2 Maya
0.1 Ho

Good to see also Asian part. With this results no northern Germany. My friend Nicola claims I have some ancestry from Austria/Hungary and this results show it.

[Leto]

I have Gedmatch of a guy whose mother is German (Volga) and father is an ethnic Russian. All three were tested (plus his Russian/Jewish wife). I can post if anyone's interested. He scores artificially similar to some of those Slav-blooded Eastern Germans.

[Luke35]

I have Gedmatch of a guy whose mother is German (Volga) and father is an ethnic Russian. All three were tested (plus his Russian/Jewish wife). I can post if anyone's interested. He scores artificially similar to some of those Slav-blooded Eastern Germans.

I'm always interested in German mixes. Bring it on, if you feel like posting it Leto. Thanks

[Leto]

Volga German mother

North_Atlantic 44.96 Pct
Baltic 24.35 Pct
West_Med 14.09 Pct
West_Asian 4.91 Pct
East_Med 9.38 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.31 Pct
Oceanian 0.32 Pct
Northeast_African 0.25 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.41 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 3.39
2 South_Dutch 3.89
3 Southeast_English 6.29
4 North_German 6.99
5 Danish 7.96
6 North_Dutch 8.03
7 Orcadian 8.31
8 French 8.66
9 Southwest_English 8.82
10 Austrian 8.9
11 Irish 9.57
12 West_Scottish 9.98
13 Norwegian 10.08
14 East_German 10.17
15 Swedish 10.66
16 Hungarian 13.06
17 North_Swedish 14.58
18 Spanish_Cataluna 16
19 Portuguese 17.28
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% Southeast_English + 20.3% Bulgarian @ 2.2
2 74.5% Southeast_English + 25.5% Serbian @ 2.23
3 77.6% Southeast_English + 22.4% Romanian @ 2.26
4 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Tuscan @ 2.68
5 68.5% Norwegian + 31.5% North_Italian @ 2.79
6 83.7% West_German + 16.3% Norwegian @ 2.82
7 75.3% West_German + 24.7% Southeast_English @ 2.84
8 83.6% Southeast_English + 16.4% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.87
9 85.1% West_German + 14.9% Swedish @ 2.87
10 80.5% West_German + 19.5% Danish @ 2.87
11 80.8% West_German + 19.2% North_Dutch @ 2.89
12 89.6% West_German + 10.4% North_Swedish @ 2.95
13 83% West_German + 17% Orcadian @ 2.99
14 77.8% Danish + 22.2% Tuscan @ 3.01
15 74.1% Danish + 25.9% North_Italian @ 3.02
16 80.3% West_German + 19.7% North_German @ 3.02
17 69.7% Southeast_English + 30.3% Hungarian @ 3.03
18 76.9% Norwegian + 23.1% West_Sicilian @ 3.04
19 77.7% North_Dutch + 22.3% Tuscan @ 3.08
20 93.6% West_German + 6.4% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.08

Russian father

North_Atlantic 25.05 Pct
Baltic 47.92 Pct
West_Med 10.39 Pct
West_Asian 6.42 Pct
East_Med 3.24 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.15 Pct
East_Asian 0.68 Pct
Siberian 3.38 Pct
Amerindian 0.73 Pct
Oceanian 1.03 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Russian 3.79
2 Russian_Smolensk 4.54
3 Ukrainian_Belgorod 4.62
4 Estonian_Polish 4.64
5 Kargopol_Russian 5.05
6 Ukrainian 5.67
7 Belorussian 6.07
8 Polish 6.36
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.76
10 Erzya 7.02
11 Lithuanian 7.94
12 South_Polish 8.1
13 Estonian 9.01
14 East_Finnish 10.38
15 Finnish 10.98
16 Croatian 13.02
17 Southwest_Finnish 13.53
18 Moldavian 15.24
19 Hungarian 17.22
20 East_German 18.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.1% Ukrainian + 43.9% Erzya @ 2.19
2 52.9% Polish + 47.1% Erzya @ 2.49
3 53.9% Kargopol_Russian + 46.1% Ukrainian @ 2.66
4 62.4% Southwest_Russian + 37.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.83
5 54.1% Erzya + 45.9% South_Polish @ 2.83
6 51.2% Ukrainian_Lviv + 48.8% Erzya @ 2.83
7 53.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 46.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.94
8 59.9% Kargopol_Russian + 40.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.02
9 54.4% Russian_Smolensk + 45.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.04
10 65.3% Russian_Smolensk + 34.7% Erzya @ 3.05
11 86.6% Russian_Smolensk + 13.4% Chuvash @ 3.13
12 95.3% Russian_Smolensk + 4.7% Selkup @ 3.18
13 89.6% Russian_Smolensk + 10.4% Mari @ 3.2
14 95.3% Russian_Smolensk + 4.7% Ket @ 3.2
15 76.2% Southwest_Russian + 23.8% Erzya @ 3.25
16 58.6% Kargopol_Russian + 41.4% Polish @ 3.25
17 85.2% Estonian_Polish + 14.8% Tatar @ 3.26
18 94.8% Russian_Smolensk + 5.2% Hakas @ 3.27
19 65.6% Estonian_Polish + 34.4% Erzya @ 3.31
20 94.6% Russian_Smolensk + 5.4% Shors @ 3.31

Russian-German son

North_Atlantic 35.28 Pct
Baltic 35.87 Pct
West_Med 13.88 Pct
West_Asian 3.28 Pct
East_Med 6.92 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.51 Pct
East_Asian 1.08 Pct
Siberian 1.5 Pct
Amerindian 0.99 Pct
Oceanian 0.59 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.11 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 5.1
2 Hungarian 6.65
3 Austrian 7.13
4 South_Polish 7.92
5 Croatian 8.62
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.73
7 Ukrainian 9.96
8 Polish 10.74
9 North_Swedish 11.23
10 Southwest_Finnish 11.41
11 Moldavian 11.7
12 Swedish 13.94
13 North_German 13.95
14 Russian_Smolensk 14.17
15 Serbian 14.17
16 West_German 14.26
17 Southwest_Russian 14.28
18 Estonian_Polish 14.38
19 Belorussian 14.45
20 South_Dutch 14.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.2% Estonian + 36.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.02
2 61.2% Estonian + 38.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.1
3 63.5% Estonian + 36.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.25
4 64.9% Estonian + 35.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.29
5 61.6% Estonian + 38.4% Portuguese @ 2.44
6 57.3% Lithuanian + 42.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.47
7 67.6% Belorussian + 32.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.58
8 63.4% Estonian + 36.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.59
9 63.5% Belorussian + 36.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.63
10 62.3% Estonian + 37.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.66
11 64.1% Estonian + 35.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.73
12 56.8% Estonian_Polish + 43.2% French @ 2.73
13 50.2% Lithuanian + 49.8% French @ 2.78
14 64.4% Ukrainian + 35.6% Southeast_English @ 2.8
15 59.6% Lithuanian + 40.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.81
16 59.4% Lithuanian + 40.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.83
17 56.7% Belorussian + 43.3% French @ 2.84
18 65.2% Belorussian + 34.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.9
19 60.7% Ukrainian + 39.3% South_Dutch @ 2.93
20 64.4% Belorussian + 35.6% Southwest_French @ 2.98

This family repatriated to Germany from Russia or Kazakhstan. If it weren't for the minor Mongoloid, he would be a fairly normal Eastern German. Though I must personally add I find his Russian father's results very solid and nice :D Probably R1a.

Dodecad K12b


Maria,7.06,0.57,0,0,35.44,41.77,0.9,0,3.23,0,10.93 ,0.09
Sergej,6.75,3.87,0.4,0,22.2,55.46,2,0,0,0.25,9.05, 0
Alexander,6.16,2.38,0.24,0.26,29.53,48.14,0.42,0,2 .15,0.88,9.84,0

[Luke35]

^^^Just having a little fun, I wanted to see how my method for phasing a child (or parent) would work in this case. It usually works well when parents are of different ethnicities, and is less precise when parents are of the same ethnicity.

I made every component an average 50/50 between the parents.

First the actual son, second is the phased son.

--------------------------


Russian_German_son,35.28,35.87,13.88,3.28,6.92,0,0 .51,1.08,1.5,0.99,0.59,0,0.11

Distance to: Russian_German_son
4.12473029 Czech
4.26527842 German_Saxony
4.97165968 Austrian_Carinthia
5.94922684 Slovak
5.98382821 German_North_Bohemia
6.18780252 Slovenian
6.34028391 German_West_Prussia
6.72950221 Hungarian_North
7.13113595 Sorb
7.19219021 German_County_Glatz
7.29090529 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
7.43671971 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.59643337 Croat_North
7.99124521 Austrian
8.01459918 Hungarian
8.22781867 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
8.32369509 German_Farther_Pomerania
8.68015553 Hungarian_Alföld
8.96812689 Polish_South
9.23985389 Lemko_Poland
9.35235265 Polish_Lesser_Poland
9.57483681 Ukrainian_Galicia
9.74039527 Upper_Silesia
10.11167147 Polish_Greater_Poland
10.14474741 Polish_Silesia



Russian_German_son_theoretical,35.01,36.14,12.24,5 .67,6.31,0,0.57,0.34,1.69,1.02,0.67,0.12,0.20


Distance to: Russian_German_son_theoretical
2.53402841 Czech
3.68286573 German_Saxony
4.32584096 German_West_Prussia
5.00249938 Slovak
5.76078988 Austrian_Carinthia
6.01529717 Slovenian
6.04309523 Sorb
6.20349095 German_North_Bohemia
6.29832517 Hungarian_North
6.69271993 German_County_Glatz
6.95761453 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
6.99976428 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.07556358 German_Farther_Pomerania
7.21895422 Croat_North
7.59573565 Polish_South
7.68738577 Hungarian
7.86168557 Austrian
8.02497975 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
8.10620750 Upper_Silesia
8.33181853 Polish_Lesser_Poland
8.41102847 Hungarian_Alföld
8.47699239 Ukrainian_Galicia
8.75221115 Lemko_Poland
9.00347711 Polish_Greater_Poland
9.13070643 Polish_Silesia

[J. Ketch]

Yeah, it's interesting.... My dad (NOT German), seems to score slightly higher 'West Asian' than 'East Med'... Not sure what that entails...
I see that 'Baltic' admix is extremely high amongst North Germans.
Having higher West Asian than East Med is the norm for the British Isles and more Northern Germanic populations, it's only South/West of the Rhine that East Med starts to exceed West Asian, from Celtic and Roman influence. West Asian partly comes from Bell Beakers>Steppe, as Insular Celts get it slightly higher than English for example.

[J. Ketch]

Right, gotcha. No doubt, 'Baltic' is the lowest the furthest away from you unironically get from the Baltic region? The Iberian Peninsula?
Although, from this thread, there was that guy's admix from Rheinland-Pfatz, shown by JQP4545, who scores a slightly lower 'Baltic' amount than my dad. He does score higher 'East Med' than 'West Asian', though.
Within Europe, Sardinia, and places where Indo-Europeans had the least influence.

Sardinian,23.14,1.64,49.58,0.38,22.02,2.41,0,0.13, 0.03,0,0.31,0.26,0.1

[Leto]

Volga German mother

North_Atlantic 44.96 Pct
Baltic 24.35 Pct
West_Med 14.09 Pct
West_Asian 4.91 Pct
East_Med 9.38 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.31 Pct
Oceanian 0.32 Pct
Northeast_African 0.25 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.41 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 3.39
2 South_Dutch 3.89
3 Southeast_English 6.29
4 North_German 6.99
5 Danish 7.96
6 North_Dutch 8.03
7 Orcadian 8.31
8 French 8.66
9 Southwest_English 8.82
10 Austrian 8.9
11 Irish 9.57
12 West_Scottish 9.98
13 Norwegian 10.08
14 East_German 10.17
15 Swedish 10.66
16 Hungarian 13.06
17 North_Swedish 14.58
18 Spanish_Cataluna 16
19 Portuguese 17.28
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% Southeast_English + 20.3% Bulgarian @ 2.2
2 74.5% Southeast_English + 25.5% Serbian @ 2.23
3 77.6% Southeast_English + 22.4% Romanian @ 2.26
4 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Tuscan @ 2.68
5 68.5% Norwegian + 31.5% North_Italian @ 2.79
6 83.7% West_German + 16.3% Norwegian @ 2.82
7 75.3% West_German + 24.7% Southeast_English @ 2.84
8 83.6% Southeast_English + 16.4% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.87
9 85.1% West_German + 14.9% Swedish @ 2.87
10 80.5% West_German + 19.5% Danish @ 2.87
11 80.8% West_German + 19.2% North_Dutch @ 2.89
12 89.6% West_German + 10.4% North_Swedish @ 2.95
13 83% West_German + 17% Orcadian @ 2.99
14 77.8% Danish + 22.2% Tuscan @ 3.01
15 74.1% Danish + 25.9% North_Italian @ 3.02
16 80.3% West_German + 19.7% North_German @ 3.02
17 69.7% Southeast_English + 30.3% Hungarian @ 3.03
18 76.9% Norwegian + 23.1% West_Sicilian @ 3.04
19 77.7% North_Dutch + 22.3% Tuscan @ 3.08
20 93.6% West_German + 6.4% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.08

Russian father

North_Atlantic 25.05 Pct
Baltic 47.92 Pct
West_Med 10.39 Pct
West_Asian 6.42 Pct
East_Med 3.24 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.15 Pct
East_Asian 0.68 Pct
Siberian 3.38 Pct
Amerindian 0.73 Pct
Oceanian 1.03 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Russian 3.79
2 Russian_Smolensk 4.54
3 Ukrainian_Belgorod 4.62
4 Estonian_Polish 4.64
5 Kargopol_Russian 5.05
6 Ukrainian 5.67
7 Belorussian 6.07
8 Polish 6.36
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.76
10 Erzya 7.02
11 Lithuanian 7.94
12 South_Polish 8.1
13 Estonian 9.01
14 East_Finnish 10.38
15 Finnish 10.98
16 Croatian 13.02
17 Southwest_Finnish 13.53
18 Moldavian 15.24
19 Hungarian 17.22
20 East_German 18.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.1% Ukrainian + 43.9% Erzya @ 2.19
2 52.9% Polish + 47.1% Erzya @ 2.49
3 53.9% Kargopol_Russian + 46.1% Ukrainian @ 2.66
4 62.4% Southwest_Russian + 37.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.83
5 54.1% Erzya + 45.9% South_Polish @ 2.83
6 51.2% Ukrainian_Lviv + 48.8% Erzya @ 2.83
7 53.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 46.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.94
8 59.9% Kargopol_Russian + 40.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.02
9 54.4% Russian_Smolensk + 45.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.04
10 65.3% Russian_Smolensk + 34.7% Erzya @ 3.05
11 86.6% Russian_Smolensk + 13.4% Chuvash @ 3.13
12 95.3% Russian_Smolensk + 4.7% Selkup @ 3.18
13 89.6% Russian_Smolensk + 10.4% Mari @ 3.2
14 95.3% Russian_Smolensk + 4.7% Ket @ 3.2
15 76.2% Southwest_Russian + 23.8% Erzya @ 3.25
16 58.6% Kargopol_Russian + 41.4% Polish @ 3.25
17 85.2% Estonian_Polish + 14.8% Tatar @ 3.26
18 94.8% Russian_Smolensk + 5.2% Hakas @ 3.27
19 65.6% Estonian_Polish + 34.4% Erzya @ 3.31
20 94.6% Russian_Smolensk + 5.4% Shors @ 3.31


Distance to: Maria
3.39604181 German_North_Hesse
3.74347432 Flemish
3.80314344 Belgian
4.59843452 Dutch_South
4.64511571 German_North_Rhine
4.75624852 German_Upper_Swabia
4.80092699 German_Lower_Franconia
4.82224014 Afrikaner
4.89411892 French_Normandy
5.00554692 German
5.66220805 German_Rhineland-Palatinate
5.67170168 German_South_Hesse
5.70919434 French_Northeast
5.83246946 Pennsylvania_Dutch
5.87809493 German_Bavaria_proper
5.92177338 French_Alsace
5.93584029 German_North_Baden
6.57505894 English_Southeast
6.66271716 Austrian_Upper_Austria
6.79769814 German_Central_Hesse

Target: Maria
Distance: 1.7937% / 1.79372394 | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.8 German_North_Hesse
21.2 German_Upper_Swabia
20.0 Danish
3.0 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south

Target: Maria
Distance: 2.0204% / 2.02036600 | R2P
80.7 German_North_Hesse
19.3 Norwegian

[Leto]

Sure. Don't wanna be really pedantic though, but Hungary does not have much Indo-European influence, and they score quite highly with 'Baltic' admixture, if I am not mistaken.
Finns score ultra high with Baltic admix as well....
I am only taking into account the Finno-Ugric language family, and I do know that language and its development sometimes corresponds differently to the genotype of the population in question.
The Finno-Ugric component is minimal in Hungarian. I'm Russian/Belorussian (Indo-European) and it's far higher in me than in nearly every Hungarian out there. But Finno-Ugric is a largely linguistic term as they do not even plot close to each other. For example the Finns in Finland are not very similar to the ethnic groups around the Ural mountains, Russia.

[Peterski]

I see that 'Baltic' admix is extremely high amongst North Germans.

It is high among North-Eastern Germans, not so much among North-Western.

=====

Hungarians have lots of Indo-European DNA, they just speak an Uralic language.

[J. Ketch]

Sure. Don't wanna be really pedantic though, but Hungary does not have much Indo-European influence, and they score quite highly with 'Baltic' admixture, if I am not mistaken.
Finns score ultra high with Baltic admix as well....
I am only taking into account the Finno-Ugric language family, and I do know that language and its development sometimes corresponds differently to the genotype of the population in question.
Ugh, OK, Steppe influence.

The next time somebody in the genetics sub-forum says Hungary is largely Slavic, I will inform them that they are wrong. They are in fact Finno-Ugric :coffee:

[Jana]

Baltic component on gedmatch (as any other) is nothing scientific, just an artificaly made components peaking in Balts. It isn't Slavic, IE nor Ugro-Finnic, just northeastern European.

[J. Ketch]

Baltic component on gedmatch (as any other) is nothing scientific, just an artificaly made components peaking in Balts. It isn't Slavic, IE nor Ugro-Finnic, just northeastern European.
Yes. I should have said it correlates with this ancestry, not comes from it.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Sure. Don't wanna be really pedantic though, but Hungary does not have much Indo-European influence, and they score quite highly with 'Baltic' admixture, if I am not mistaken.
Finns score ultra high with Baltic admix as well....
I am only taking into account the Finno-Ugric language family, and I do know that language and its development sometimes corresponds differently to the genotype of the population in question.

Baltic component on Eurogenes K13 is (among other things) also related to ANE ancestry, not specifically to Indo-European or Finno-Ugric groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian

In the tables below, percentage of ANE in modern populations:

Table1
https://i.imgur.com/a9hd5Nb.png

Table2
https://i.imgur.com/fvydxMi.png

Closest pops


Distance to: ANE
0.23744223 Udmurt
0.24433324 Saami
0.24698963 Besermyan
0.25200243 Tlingit
0.25686027 Saami_Kola
0.25912142 Komi
0.26255276 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.26626160 Chuvash
0.26747160 Mari
0.27358959 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.27421537 Tatar_Kazan
0.27592261 Sarikoli_China
0.27646657 Tajik_Shugnan
0.27661263 Jatt_Pathak
0.27805924 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.27867204 Ror
0.27925748 Russian_Pinega
0.27937469 Finnish_East
0.28030357 Tajik_Rushan
0.28039253 Tajik_Badakshan
0.28297822 Kho_Singanali
0.28298748 Karelian
0.28318101 Vepsian
0.28350361 Bashkir
0.28404708 Mansi
0.28543407 Finnish_North
0.28562185 Tatar_Mishar
0.28786985 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.28860963 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.28870009 Khanty
0.28912226 Kalash
0.28932578 Finnish_Central
0.29091873 Ingrian
0.29145539 Erzya
0.29209113 Tajik_Hisor
0.29290780 Tajik_Kulob
0.29300019 Finnish_Southeast
0.29370576 Russian_Kostroma
0.29464387 Greenlander_West
0.29621237 Punjabi_Jatt
0.29744096 Tatar_Lipka
0.29780271 Moksha
0.29800934 Burusho
0.29879309 Nepalese_A2
0.29882327 Uthmankhel
0.29905038 Tajik_Ayni
0.29907525 Ket
0.29917809 Tatar_Siberian
0.29967239 Finnish_Southwest
0.30013666 Punjabi_Sikh_India
0.30084114 Tarkalani
0.30124568 Yusufzai
0.30158163 Pashtun_Kurram
0.30213792 Pashtun_North_Afghanistan
0.30215736 Kohistani
0.30258183 Nepalese_A
0.30265818 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.30279962 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.30428625 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.30428679 Khatri
0.30447316 Punjabi_Hindu_India
0.30452949 Kamboj
0.30632980 Russian_Tver
0.30676553 Kashmiri_Pakistan
0.30698114 Estonian
0.30833958 Cossack_Kuban
0.30935911 Bahun
0.30962052 Gujar_Pakistan
0.30993644 Russian_Ryazan
0.31002156 Khatri_o
0.31052710 Latvian
0.31220849 Brahmin_Gujarat
0.31234544 Rajput_Rajasthan
0.31304892 Cree
0.31329490 Russian_Pskov
0.31367791 Russian_Kursk
0.31401742 Brahmin_UP
0.31443271 Lithuanian_PZ
0.31511987 Darginian
0.31525045 Kashmiri_Pakistan_o
0.31526571 Sindhi
0.31527815 Gujar_India
0.31530462 Lithuanian_SZ
0.31548962 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.31615273 Russian_Kaluga
0.31633455 Lithuanian_RA
0.31675823 Lithuanian_PA
0.31690876 Turkmen
0.31718196 Russian_Orel
0.31739151 Lithuanian_VZ
0.31806413 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.31816014 Uzbek
0.31842495 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.31871007 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.31883045 Lithuanian_VA
0.31885609 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.31893693 Balti
0.31967605 Polish_Kashubian
0.32003843 Belarusian
0.32036359 Russian_Voronez
0.32108080 Kaitag
0.32112534 Moldovan_o
0.32164225 Avar
0.32168783 Yukagir_Forest
0.32175636 Lak
0.32207925 Brahmin_West_Bengal
0.32228115 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.32232652 Kubachinian
0.32298142 Nepalese_B
0.32311481 Punjabi_Muslim_India
0.32316801 Kshatriya
0.32318524 Russian_Smolensk
0.32391149 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.32444425 Norwegian
0.32491503 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.32491827 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.32511871 Swedish
0.32518290 Russian_Belgorod
0.32577242 Tabasaran
0.32658574 Punjabi_Lahore
0.32666006 Polish
0.32678161 Balochi_B
0.32705366 Icelandic
0.32846912 Slovakian
0.32983922 Shetlandic
0.33009999 Brahui
0.33079373 Danish
0.33096396 Irish
0.33104339 Orcadian
0.33232091 Scottish
0.33246016 Czech
0.33256411 Balochi_A
0.33271152 Dutch
0.33290904 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.33355904 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.33430514 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
0.33431595 Tubalar
0.33456618 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.33483572 Iyer
0.33485164 Shor_Mountain
0.33491702 German_East
0.33529707 Afrikaner
0.33590778 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.33642868 Shor_Khakassia
0.33738516 Hungarian
0.33759713 English
0.33767933 Greenlander_East
0.33794152 Brahmin_UP_o
0.33818763 Bahun_o
0.33831443 Welsh
0.33956668 Roma_Balkans
0.34025529 German
0.34053707 English_Cornwall
0.34097136 Kanjar
0.34134736 French_Brittany
0.34154622 Makrani
0.34288232 Austrian
0.34306462 Uygur
0.34306757 Croatian
0.34324437 Nogai
0.34334458 Shor
0.34385522 Chechen
0.34392544 Slovenian
0.34413666 Gujarati
0.34482260 Cochin_Jew
0.34526995 Roma_Bilbao
0.34540811 Kumyk
0.34579106 Iranian_Bandari
0.34626973 Turkish_Rumeli
0.34629741 Turkish_Deliorman
0.34634340 Abazin
0.34643544 Roma_Porto
0.34648839 Cherkes
0.34674784 Nepalese_C
0.34680212 French_Seine-Maritime
0.34707702 Hazara
0.34738151 Kabardin
0.34745724 Moldovan
0.34784150 Roma_Granada
0.34795175 Bosnian
0.34812757 Kol
0.34823140 Circassian
0.34830783 Karachay
0.34866784 Belgian
0.34872222 Parsi_Pakistan
0.34875333 Rajput_Rajasthan_o
0.34950131 Balkar
0.34952292 Roma_Madrid
0.34953566 Roma_Barcelona
0.34953904 Ingushian
0.35040241 Turkish_Northwest
0.35047604 Parsi_India
0.35145601 French_Nord
0.35210966 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.35214287 Turkish_Balikesir
0.35245849 Maori
0.35357202 Kamboj_o
0.35375736 Dharkar
0.35386609 French_Alsace
0.35405634 Turkish_South
0.35463012 Turkish_Southwest
0.35540409 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
0.35569575 Swiss_German
0.35627136 Serbian
0.35637274 North_Ossetian
0.35682471 Montenegrin
0.35688420 French_Paris
0.35745231 Karakalpak
0.35803268 Turkish_Aydin
0.35845481 Uttar_Pradesh
0.35889194 Adygei
0.35956911 Romanian
0.36052085 Nepalese_D
0.36064551 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.36096490 Selkup
0.36096732 Turkish_North
0.36190947 Iranian_Fars
0.36205756 Konkani_Christian
0.36268314 Bulgarian
0.36270139 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.36282944 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.36323846 Velamas
0.36413004 Telugu_GBR
0.36470665 Macedonian
0.36530069 French_Occitanie
0.36538867 Dusadh
0.36556187 Ossetian
0.36580409 Gagauz
0.36602341 Vellalar
0.36665410 Khakass
0.36699194 French_Auvergne
0.36725971 Swiss_French
0.36747540 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.36847175 Georgian_Khevs
0.36882786 Sri_Lankan
0.36906561 French_Provence
0.36907417 Georgian_Tush
0.36986014 Yadava
0.36994633 Gupta
0.37009127 Turkish_Central
0.37053754 Punjabi_Christian_India
0.37083101 Azerbaijani
0.37099014 Turkish_Adana
0.37111778 Italian_Northeast
0.37119306 Chamar
0.37133881 Tamils_GBR
0.37198971 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.37253769 Maratha
0.37292524 Azerbaijani_Turkey
0.37306262 Ezid
0.37385688 Spanish_Penedes
0.37416892 Piramalai
0.37418766 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.37507029 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.37518260 Spanish_Soria
0.37635788 Spanish_Girona
0.37694579 Iranian_Lor
0.37715034 Kurumba
0.37742379 Kazakh
0.37797059 Spanish_Mallorca
0.37801191 Rumelia_East
0.37810247 Chenchu
0.37847084 Spanish_Galicia
0.37927486 Turkish_Kayseri
0.37947382 Spanish_Lleida
0.37948274 Nenets
0.37959174 Spanish_Barcelones
0.37967949 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.37969192 Spanish_Alacant
0.37972885 Spanish_Cataluna
0.37986602 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.37990384 Turkish_East
0.37994757 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.37998233 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.38011262 Spanish_Baleares
0.38011981 Spanish_Cantabria
0.38025299 Kurdish
0.38026485 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.38049104 Italian_Veneto
0.38063721 Spanish_Extremadura
0.38071106 Swiss_Italian
0.38105599 Portuguese
0.38112858 French_South
0.38158336 Greek_Macedonia
0.38160447 Spanish_Pirineu
0.38161896 Spanish_Castello
0.38183632 Spanish_Eivissa
0.38185976 Spanish_Valencia
0.38253231 Spanish_Murcia
0.38288972 Bukharian_Jew
0.38317161 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.38352501 Relli
0.38356324 Albanian
0.38373063 Spanish_Navarra
0.38378404 Spanish_Andalucia
0.38386026 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.38426387 Greek_Thessaly
0.38430923 Spanish_Aragon
0.38444312 Udi
0.38470561 North_Kannadi
0.38479973 Italian_Liguria
0.38483139 Spanish_Asturias
0.38489191 Spanish_Menorca
0.38495045 Italian_Piedmont
0.38557805 Abkhasian
0.38574773 Spanish_Canarias
0.38614576 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.38646634 Basque_French
0.38735618 Italian_Bergamo
0.38785372 Italian_Lombardy
0.38792737 Basque_Spanish
0.38839805 Sakilli
0.38858010 Georgian_Svan
0.38912560 Italian_Tuscany
0.39008098 Greek_Peloponnese
0.39008522 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.39031910 Pallan
0.39110113 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.39124975 Georgian_Kart
0.39150762 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.39206346 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.39223373 Madiga
0.39244005 Italian_Umbria
0.39300707 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.39320198 Hakkipikki
0.39324246 Italian_Marche
0.39457594 Greek_Izmir
0.39500619 Italian_Molise
0.39584784 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.39587957 Georgian_Kakh
0.39595871 Ahiska
0.39638385 Sephardic_Jew_o
0.39679046 Italian_Abruzzo
0.39717867 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.39838954 French_Corsica
0.39878091 Sicilian_West
0.39896477 Greek_Laconia
0.39948957 Mala
0.39969996 Italian_Lazio
0.39992026 Georgian_Megr
0.40109671 Maltese
0.40117618 Italian_Basilicata
0.40172694 Iraqi
0.40201484 Mountain_Jew_o
0.40210575 Italian_Apulia
0.40246616 Greek_Crete
0.40388285 Sicilian_East
0.40422662 Georgian_Imer
0.40425048 Georgian_Ajar
0.40443438 Mountain_Jew
0.40445560 Italian_Campania
0.40521220 Syrian
0.40523685 Georgian_Jew
0.40553195 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.40559964 Georgian_Meskheti
0.40563294 Kirghiz
0.40566337 Kirghiz_China
0.40596152 Italian_Calabria
0.40814435 Assyrian
0.40902032 Khakass_Kachins
0.40945377 Newar
0.40997768 Armenian
0.41005903 Iranian_Jew
0.41030667 Greek_Kos
0.41057341 Armenian_Erzurum
0.41079349 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.41088986 Georgian_Laz
0.41163220 Irula
0.41251672 Greek_Dodecanese
0.41347901 Italian_Jew
0.41363059 Lebanese_Muslim
0.41364800 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.41365140 Turkish_Trabzon
0.41392623 Greek_Cappadocia
0.41473484 Moroccan_Jew
0.41490909 Greek_Trabzon
0.41577738 Syrian_Jew
0.41586539 Nepalese_E
0.41647006 Sephardic_Jew
0.41756019 Chipewyan
0.41771114 Altaian
0.41812393 Romaniote_Jew
0.41813917 Pulliyar
0.41864890 Kadar
0.41962407 Lebanese_Druze
0.41964491 Brahmin_Manipuri
0.42021707 Kurdish_Jew
0.42084990 Jordanian
0.42092184 Druze
0.42220123 Kazakh_China
0.42240309 Malayan
0.42312439 Karaite_Egypt
0.42369137 Cypriot
0.42373962 Libyan_Jew
0.42488580 Palestinian
0.42532208 Paniya
0.42561988 Gond
0.42601628 Iraqi_Jew
0.42895461 Tunisian_Jew
0.43045329 BedouinA
0.43070525 Lebanese_Christian
0.43150668 Asur
0.43371890 Amerindian_North
0.43416715 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.43849924 Jarawa
0.44028353 Onge
0.44044351 Bhumij
0.44218697 Tharu
0.44258266 Santhal
0.44648768 Eskimo_Naukan
0.44699672 Samaritan
0.44717818 Egyptian
0.44734850 Korwa
0.44788686 Mogush
0.44891363 Birhor
0.45012447 Moroccan_North
0.45136834 Ho
0.45201612 Libyan
0.45217342 Tunisian
0.45246853 Eskimo
0.45282355 Yemenite_Amran
0.45311577 Eskimo_Sireniki
0.45433399 Sardinian
0.45482831 Gadaba
0.45495853 Algerian
0.45513031 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.45622300 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
0.45675691 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.45683047 Eskimo_Chaplin
0.45707891 Tuvinian
0.45753835 Kusunda
0.45857195 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
0.45864416 Khonda_Dora
0.45990006 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.46190282 Bolivian_Pando
0.46259631 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.46302529 Tunisian_Rbaya
0.46354410 Mongolian
0.46372008 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.46390001 Mozabite
0.46445850 Moroccan
0.46458303 Tunisian_Douz
0.46581170 Kalmyk
0.46609231 Buryat
0.46658508 Bonda
0.46672801 Chukchi
0.46780524 Yemenite_Jew
0.46793458 Quechua
0.46900610 Bolivian_Cochabamba
0.47021991 Saudi
0.47027646 Juang
0.47126801 Itelmen
0.47129806 BedouinB
0.47139936 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.47153284 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.47268334 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.47494685 Todzin
0.47634325 Mixtec
0.47822161 Zapotec
0.47943050 Yemenite_Mahra
0.48126539 Nahua
0.48164845 Mayan
0.48389177 Saharawi
0.48460173 Huichol
0.48599922 Dolgan
0.48615094 Koryak
0.48675317 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.48853557 Jehai
0.48873175 Pima
0.48952990 Nepalese_F
0.49374244 Cachi
0.49828970 Magar

Fun fact: apparently ANEs or peoples related to them would have been the first to carry blond hair

[Peterski]

Here Eurogenes K13 results of Medieval samples from Lübeck:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004221003874


hgh-1429.txt,50,26.85,10.49,7.16,0,1.23,2.12,0,0,0.42, 0,1.73,0
hgh-1510.txt,54.59,22.79,12.43,0,1.65,0.87,4.72,2.52,0 ,0,0,0.43,0
hgh-1579.txt,49.28,19.21,13.31,8.18,3.00,0.97,2.85,0,1 .10,1.22,0,0.87,0
hgh-1599.txt,49.75,34.99,4.53,3.84,2.05,0,0,0,0,0,3.22 ,1.61,0
hgh-1600.txt,48.70,26.60,11.18,8.06,0.36,1.57,0.65,0,0 .34,1.34,0.69,0.50,0
hgh-1607.txt,45.79,28.27,11.88,7.03,1.83,1.46,0.28,0,0 .59,1.70,0.80,0.37,0

This one has Slavic-looking results (most likely a Polabian Slav):


hgh-1558.txt,36.25,51.15,5.47,0,1.12,1.37,0,3.18,0,0.5 4,0,0.12,0.81

[Leto]

Baltic component on Eurogenes K13 is (among other things) also related to ANE ancestry, not specifically to Indo-European or Finno-Ugric groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian

In the tables below, percentage of ANE in modern populations:
How come it is so abysmally low in Georgia? Even you would score like a goddamn Hyperborean compared to them! :eek: :D

[Ajeje Brazorf]

How come it is so abysmally low in Georgia? Even you would score like a goddamn Hyperborean compared to them! :eek: :D

In the table it may look like they have less because I made models including CHG as a component, but that is not the case at all, in fact, CHG is related to ANE. I think distance does a better job of telling which of the two is more related to ANE.


Distance to: ANE
0.36847175 Georgian_Khevs
0.36907417 Georgian_Tush
0.38858010 Georgian_Svan
0.39124975 Georgian_Kart
0.39500619 Italian_Molise
0.39587957 Georgian_Kakh
0.39679046 Italian_Abruzzo
0.39878091 Sicilian_West
0.39992026 Georgian_Megr
0.40109671 Maltese
0.40117618 Italian_Basilicata
0.40210575 Italian_Apulia
0.40388285 Sicilian_East
0.40422662 Georgian_Imer
0.40425048 Georgian_Ajar
0.40445560 Italian_Campania
0.40596152 Italian_Calabria
0.41088986 Georgian_Laz

[J. Ketch]

Kudos for this…. Really interesting, although how on god’s green earth does the average English genome have a higher amount of Baltic than the average German. I mean I get the higher Irish showing, because of their Steppe admix, but the English?
They don't. And Irish have less than English.

English,49.68,23.44,13.70,5.62,3.96,0.71,1.03,0.15 ,0.29,0.57,0.39,0.21,0.17
German,43.00,27.31,13.88,5.81,6.40,0.94,0.94,0.15, 0.34,0.46,0.36,0.15,0.13
Irish,52.43,22.93,12.62,6.82,1.44,0.50,1.40,0.16,0 .28,0.80,0.29,0.14,0.13

[Jana]

Very large (in volume) update is coming quickly even. Yes, even Austria.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

That does seem to be different information than the info that Ajeje Brazorf just put out, unless I am seriously missing something here.
It does appear that Alpine populations score relatively low on the Baltic front.
Also, I don't suppose it is an unusual scenario that my dad has almost twice as high of the 'eastern Europe' segment as he does 'Baltic' on his K15

Creoda is actually right. Germans (excluding those in the south and west) have more "Baltic". I mentioned ANE earlier, but keep in mind that the "Baltic" component of Eurogenes K13 is an artificial construct, not a reality. It will probably be 30% EEF (component spread from Anatolia to Europe in several waves starting from 8000 years ago), 30% WHG (component spread from time immemorial in Europe among pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers), and finally 30% ANE and 10% CHG (components spread by peoples speaking Indo-European languages starting from 5000 years ago, although the former was already present in Eastern Europe mixed with WHG even among hunter-gatherers).

[Roy]

Creoda is actually right. Germans (excluding those in the south and west) have more "Baltic". I mentioned ANE earlier, but keep in mind that the "Baltic" component of Eurogenes K13 is an artificial construct, not a reality. It will probably be 30% EEF (component spread from Anatolia to Europe in several waves starting from 8000 years ago), 30% WHG (component spread from time immemorial in Europe among pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers), and finally 30% ANE and 10% CHG (components spread by peoples speaking Indo-European languages starting from 5000 years ago, although the former was already present in Eastern Europe mixed with WHG even among hunter-gatherers).

Can you explain that conjecture?

[Leto]

Gedmatch is increasingly falling out of use, probably not much use posting GM results anymore.

Volga German (his wife is Russian but their daughter re-Germanized the lineage by marrying an actual German from Germany)

North_Atlantic 42.54 Pct
Baltic 24.33 Pct
West_Med 14.31 Pct
West_Asian 7.62 Pct
East_Med 7.96 Pct
Red_Sea 1.95 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.17 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.12 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 2.77
2 South_Dutch 3.44
3 Austrian 6.88
4 North_German 7.14
5 Southeast_English 8.28
6 French 8.41
7 East_German 8.71
8 North_Dutch 9.01
9 Danish 9.04
10 Orcadian 9.57
11 Southwest_English 10.02
12 Irish 10.54
13 Norwegian 11
14 West_Scottish 11.14
15 Swedish 11.14
16 Hungarian 11.31
17 North_Swedish 14.5
18 Serbian 15.31
19 Spanish_Cataluna 16.22
20 Croatian 17.03

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62.5% West_Scottish + 37.5% Romanian @ 1.58
2 58% West_Scottish + 42% Serbian @ 1.59
3 66.1% Orcadian + 33.9% Romanian @ 1.69
4 66% West_Scottish + 34% Bulgarian @ 1.7
5 69.4% Orcadian + 30.6% Bulgarian @ 1.75
6 79.3% South_Dutch + 20.7% Hungarian @ 1.83
7 63.9% Irish + 36.1% Romanian @ 1.85
8 69.7% South_Dutch + 30.3% Austrian @ 1.88
9 60.7% Southwest_English + 39.3% Serbian @ 1.88
10 75.4% North_Dutch + 24.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 1.9
11 90% South_Dutch + 10% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.92
12 67.3% Irish + 32.7% Bulgarian @ 1.94
13 59.5% Irish + 40.5% Serbian @ 1.97
14 69.4% Swedish + 30.6% Tuscan @ 1.98
15 90.1% South_Dutch + 9.9% Southwest_Russian @ 2
16 75.2% Norwegian + 24.8% Central_Greek @ 2.02
17 61.9% Orcadian + 38.1% Serbian @ 2.03
18 77.8% West_German + 22.2% Austrian @ 2.03
19 74.8% North_German + 25.2% North_Italian @ 2.04
20 93.9% West_German + 6.1% East_Finnish @ 2.05

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Can you explain that conjecture?

Baltic component peaks in samples like these

https://i.imgur.com/zRMi9mw.png

So it is essentially a Baltic Bronze Age or a vague EHG component (composed in various shades of WHG+ANE).

https://i.imgur.com/mc6nqqV.png


Gedmatch is increasingly falling out of use, probably not much use posting GM results anymore.

If only Global25 was free and easily accessible like GEDmatch....

[Leto]

If only Global25 was free and easily accessible like GEDmatch....
Until G25 is free and easy to use, it won't fully replace Gedmatch. But IMO creating 3-5 new calculators for the Gedmatch website would suffice. Sadly, they seem to have abandoned that section entirely.

[rothaer]

Creoda is actually right. Germans (excluding those in the south and west) have more "Baltic". I mentioned ANE earlier, but keep in mind that the "Baltic" component of Eurogenes K13 is an artificial construct, not a reality. It will probably be 30% EEF (component spread from Anatolia to Europe in several waves starting from 8000 years ago), 30% WHG (component spread from time immemorial in Europe among pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers), and finally 30% ANE and 10% CHG (components spread by peoples speaking Indo-European languages starting from 5000 years ago, although the former was already present in Eastern Europe mixed with WHG even among hunter-gatherers).

So kind of 70% EHG and 30% EEF.

[Jana]

Until G25

G25 cost too much and their modern references are terrible. I don't see it replacing gedmatch anytime soon.

[Jana]

What I learned while collecting various verified samples? Don't trust academic samples, they are often random people from some city with mixed ancestry (either ethic or if not, than regional).

"German East" everyone used for years is a great example (and we use it still, just renamed it to German_Saxony). Now when we got decent number of fully verified kits from Saxony, I can see that average wasn't good and probably included people with ancestry not only from Saxony, but other places. Nobody seems to check 4/4 grandparents in academic papers it seems, their reliability is really low.

New Saxony average we will publish soon to replace academic one (won't mix them but totally drop Leipzig academic kits) is pretty different and quite less eastern.

It's even close to "central German" genetic profile in a way, something many argued doesn't exist. All academic averages on Vahado need to be replaced with better ones, they are simply not reliable.

[vbnetkhio]

Baltic component peaks in samples like these

https://i.imgur.com/zRMi9mw.png

So it is essentially a Baltic Bronze Age or a vague EHG component (composed in various shades of WHG+ANE).

https://i.imgur.com/mc6nqqV.png



If only Global25 was free and easily accessible like GEDmatch....

K13 can model Nordic-like, Balto-Slavic-like and Italian-like groups properly, and coincidentaly most of Eastern/Central Europe and the Balkans are a mix of exactly such groups, so it's a useful calculator for us.
When used for this area, the Baltic components really signifies Balto-slavic influence.

For most other things it fails, and the components act as bad proxies. I don't mean ancient samples only.

For example, it shows the Finnish as Nordic+ Balto-Slavic, but they actually have addtional WHG and EHG from Sami-like admixture, which in k13 goes into NA and Baltic and probably messes up the ratio.

[vbnetkhio]

So essentially 70% EHG and 30% EEF.

the Baltic component is based on modern Latvians or Lithuanians, however because of the "calculator effect", Latvians and Lithuanians themselves get only 50-60% Baltic.
Same goes for the British and the North Atlantic component.

So they are basically nothing, and it's better to treat them as coordinates (like those in G25) than actual components.

[rothaer]

(…)
So they are basically nothing, and it's better to treat them as coordinates (like those in G25) than actual components.

I agree with exclamation mark. This is applicable to a number of GEDmatch calculators. How much unnecessary texting could have been avoided if f. i. the “Iberian” component of K36 just would have been called „component 7“ (figuratively)?!

[vbnetkhio]

G25 cost too much and their modern references are terrible. I don't see it replacing gedmatch anytime soon.

k13 results can be converted to G25 with Genoplot.
somebody on anthrogenica converted the Macedonian Greek average like this, and it was almost identical to the one already in G25.
so it's realiable, at least in some cases.

[rothaer]

(…)

For example, it shows the Finnish as Nordic+ Balto-Slavic, but they actually have addtional WHG and EHG from Sami-like admixture, which in k13 goes into NA and Baltic and probably messes up the ratio.

This is one of the most insightful and important comments that I’ve read for a year. Exactly this problem is existent in Eurogenes calculators up to G25 inclusively even. But not in K36.

[vbnetkhio]

This is one of the most insightful and important comments that I’ve read for a year. Exactly this problem is existent in Eurogenes calculators up to G25 inclusively even. But not in K36.

I don't think g25 has this problem.. k36 does, for example it has a fennoscandian component based on modern Finns, so it can model Finns properly, but it still can't deal with Sami (because of a lack of WHG and EHG components)

[Peterski]

What I learned while collecting various verified samples? Don't trust academic samples, they are often random people from some city with mixed ancestry (either ethic or if not, than regional).

"German East" everyone used for years is a great example (and we use it still, just renamed it to German_Saxony). Now when we got decent number of fully verified kits from Saxony, I can see that average wasn't good and probably included people with ancestry not only from Saxony, but other places. Nobody seems to check 4/4 grandparents in academic papers it seems, their reliability is really low.

New Saxony average we will publish soon to replace academic one (won't mix them but totally drop Leipzig academic kits) is pretty different and quite less eastern.

It's even close to "central German" genetic profile in a way, something many argued doesn't exist. All academic averages on Vahado need to be replaced with better ones, they are simply not reliable.

About not trusting academic samples I told you already in 2016 but then you laughed and believed in academic data like in a holy grail, and almost called me names for wanting to use non-academic data.

But now you are going from one extreme to another. You shouldn't dismiss academic samples entirely. There are no obvious outliers in the Leipzig sample in my opinion (they all look like they could be from Saxony, just from different parts of Saxony).

Check for comparison kits from Thuringia and from Saxony-Anhalt before you claim that your new average for Saxony is representative (it can be too western-shifted).

The GEDmatch kits I have for Saxony are not much different than the Leipzig academic average. So maybe you just found kits from a specific sub-region of Saxony.

Here is a German sample with all 4/4 grandparents from Thuringia for comparison, and still very eastern-plotting:

G25 coordinates (scaled):


DE_Thuringia1,0.132035,0.13405,0.056945,0.047804,0 .036622,0.014223,0.010105,0.00923,-0.00225,-0.016583,-0.001786,0.00015,0.0055,0.01679,-0.000543,0.003713,0.001304,-0.003421,-0.002514,-0.001751,-0.002995,0.001855,0.003204,0.003253,-0.001197

Distance to: DE_Thuringia1
0.01788853 Czech
0.02052746 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02251585 Hungarian
0.02336433 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02427786 German_East
0.02446324 Slovakian
0.02520100 Croatian
0.02579155 Polish
(...)

[vbnetkhio]

I agree with exclamation mark. This is applicable to a number of GEDmatch calculators. How much unnecessary texting could have been avoided if f. i. the “Iberian” component of K36 just would have been called „component 7“ (figuratively)?!

I meant "nothing" in the sense that is very hard to tell to which EHG/WHG/steppe ratio they correspond, especially after the calculator effect.
The Iberian component still peaks in Iberians, but people without Iberian ancestry can get it too, either because of the calculator effect, or as a proxy because of a lack of components.

[Peterski]

Sachsen-Anhalt kit from south-western part of Sachsen-Anhalt, which has no or very few Slavic toponyms (but Slavic admixture is there anyway):

Population
North_Atlantic 41.2 Pct
Baltic 32.61 Pct
West_Med 8.74 Pct
West_Asian 5.02 Pct
East_Med 9.88 Pct
Red_Sea 0.29 Pct
South_Asian 1.26 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.64 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.35 Pct

=====

And here is that Thuringian's K13 (from eastern Thuringia):

Population
North_Atlantic 33.73 Pct
Baltic 37.38 Pct
West_Med 8.85 Pct
West_Asian 8.81 Pct
East_Med 8.33 Pct
Red_Sea 0.92 Pct
South_Asian 0.17 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.51 Pct
Amerindian 0.11 Pct
Oceanian 1.17 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -


I meant "nothing" in the sense that is very hard to tell to which EHG/WHG/steppe ratio they correspond, especially after the calculator effect.
The Iberian component still peaks in Iberians, but people without Iberian ancestry can get it too, either because of the calculator effect, or as a proxy because of a lack of components.

The Iberian component also existed e.g. in Neolithic British samples.

And in general in Neolithic Farmer populations throughout Europe.

[Jana]

The GEDmatch kits I have for Saxony are not much different than the Leipzig academic average. So maybe you just found kits from a specific sub-region of Saxony.

No, we have kits from multiple regions of Saxony, and several from Czech border. Old average was innacurate and shit.

Leipzig samples look east German, not specifically upper Saxon. They can be from wherever and they will be put into trashbin in new update.

[Jana]

Sachsen-Anhalt kit from south-western part of Sachsen-Anhalt, which has no or very few Slavic toponyms (but Slavic admixture is there anyway):

Population
North_Atlantic 41.2 Pct
Baltic 32.61 Pct
West_Med 8.74 Pct
West_Asian 5.02 Pct
East_Med 9.88 Pct
Red_Sea 0.29 Pct
South_Asian 1.26 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.64 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.35 Pct

=====

And here is that Thuringian's K13 (from eastern Thuringia):

Population
North_Atlantic 33.73 Pct
Baltic 37.38 Pct
West_Med 8.85 Pct
West_Asian 8.81 Pct
East_Med 8.33 Pct
Red_Sea 0.92 Pct
South_Asian 0.17 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.51 Pct
Amerindian 0.11 Pct
Oceanian 1.17 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -



The Iberian component also existed e.g. in Neolithic British samples.

And in general in Neolithic Farmer populations throughout Europe.

I don't trust you, and can't verify where they are from exactly based on your telltales. Saxony Anhalt example you posted is very similar to what we have from there, from Thuringia we don't have any so I can't comment. But based on Saxony average what you post isn't overly representative.

[mariusz99]

I meant "nothing" in the sense that is very hard to tell to which EHG/WHG/steppe ratio they correspond, especially after the calculator effect.
The Iberian component still peaks in Iberians, but people without Iberian ancestry can get it too, either because of the calculator effect, or as a proxy because of a lack of components.

I have very high Iberian component ( especially for Pole), this Iberian component shows my ancestry (or only similarity) in 3 chromosomes to Hungary, and in 1 chromosome to France/West Germany.

[Jana]

I know little time passed since initial averages release, but we got into possession of very, very large batch of samples with checked and confirmed ancestry from different regions. Updates are already basically ready, but we are struggling with Austria for which we got quite a few kits as well. So much for Leto attacking use of Noricum as stand alone Carinthian average btw, we got other Carinthians and that region (plus Styria) is looking pretty uniform.

So his sample was already decent. Ofc with more Carinthians it will be much better even, we welcome addition of every verified extra kit.
Problem is with upper and lower Austria, samples from there are unexpectedly genetically diverse and we aren't sure how to group them, so waiting for potential few more Austrian kits to get a clearer picture of the area.

That's the reason why this massive update isn't out yet. But trying it to be as fast as possible.

[Leto]

IMO German names are preferable to English as they sound more authentic.

[Leto]

I know little time passed since initial averages release, but we got into possession of very, very large batch of samples with checked and confirmed ancestry from different regions. Updates are already basically ready, but we are struggling with Austria for which we got quite a few kits as well. So much for Leto attacking use of Noricum as stand alone Carinthian average btw, we got other Carinthians and that region (plus Sytria) is looking pretty uniform.

So his sample was already decent. Ofc with more Carinthians it will be much better even, we welcome addition of every verified extra kit.
Problem is with upper and lower Austria, samples from there are unexpectedly genetically diverse and we aren't sure how to group them, so waiting for potential few more Austrian kits to get a clearer picture of the area.

That's the reason why this massive update isn't out yet. But trying it to be as fast as possible.
Just do a more generalized set of populations and you can have as many villages and towns as you want.

[Jana]

Just do a more generalized set of populations and you can have as many villages and towns as you want.

There are no villages and towns used, just historic and genetic regions. But we will make new general Austrian and German average.
And I am pretty sure you couldn't do the same for Russia even if you wanted, when most of your countrymen have no gedcom and no idea of their ancestry beside grandparents level.

Just because others are unable to do fine scale differences des not mean we need to lower our standards to adjust to that.

[Jana]

I understand to someone from Russia this approach looks alien when Russia is such a vast landmass and pretty centralized at that, with no real deep rootness and regional identity or tradition like most of Europe.
Germany was made of hundreds of mini states for centuries, and regional roots are very strong. Distrupted with WW2 in the east but in Russia already tens of millions were moved during communist era and pretty sure millions of Russians don't really know their deep regional ancestry or feel any kind of attachement towards that. Even the wild fields were colonised just centuries ago, and I doubt there were detailed records kept about where these settlers are coming from like in case of German areas.

Also, Russians are shockingly genetically homogenous considering how gigantic their country is and this means it was rapid expansion of settlers (who didn't even need to be numerous) into very lowly populated areas.
In case of Germany, it is not the case at all, hence bigger and more pronounced and refined genetic differences on much smaller areas. It was more like a gradual and more natural assimilation and intermixing with already present and densely populated older populations (especially in the south)

[Leto]

You don't need to tell me or the Russians we are somehow rootless or whatever. First of all, I'm more conservative and religious than most people here (who are probably various shades of liberal). Secondly, this isn't something specifically anti-German. I know the German language (not perfectly) and have a deep appreciation for German culture and history. Hell, I am even the main guy who has been posting results on this thread.

You are a tribal Croat and of course we are not like the South Slavs who obsess about some Y DNA subclades or whatever. You are not German and attacking the wrong person.

[Leto]

There are no villages and towns used, just historic and genetic regions. But we will make new general Austrian and German average.
And I am pretty sure you couldn't do the same for Russia even if you wanted, when most of your countrymen have no gedcom and no idea of their ancestry beside grandparents level.

Just because others are unable to do fine scale differences des not mean we need to lower our standards to adjust to that.
There are plenty of Russian Gedcoms on Gedmatch, like literally hundreds. Many Russians now take interest in genealogy because of WW2 memorial projects (Great Patriotic War in Russian). This is where I dissent from the majority but at least it prompts so many people to go deep into their family history. Russia even has its own DNA testing company called Genotek (the raw data sucks though).

Germans are the ones who deny their roots for fear of being called Nazi or racist. The most self-hating country in the world where ethnic pride is literally a moral offense.

[Jana]

You don't need to tell me or the Russians we are somehow rootless or whatever.

You are very centralistic minded and even feel threathened when some people prefer clear, fine scale averages. And I feel you do that because you can't do the same for Russia (no gedcoms, much poorer records keeping, transfers of millions into different regions trough centuries, no historical traditions of regionalism, except in Russian north I would assume).

I see you are not interested in fine-scale differences and like to lump all kinds of results togheder. Why do you assume other people are like that as well?
We want to reconstruct genetic image of ethnic Germans before WW2.


First of all, I'm more conservative and religious than most people here (who are probably various shades of liberal). Secondly, this isn't something specifically anti-German. I know the German language (not perfectly) and have a deep appreciation for German culture and history. Hell, I am even the main guy who has been posting results on this thread.

And yet you don't really know or care for ancestry of samples you are posting except broadly. That's ok, but to quite a few people that's not informative enough.


You are a tribal Croat and of course we are not like the South Slavs who obsess about some Y DNA subclades or whatever. You are not German and attacking the wrong person.

I have some German ancestry and put a lot of effort into this together with roather who is ethnic German and agrees with me on this approach (it is even his idea).
Croats are much more like Germans and Italians with our strong regional uniqueness, than any of these are like Russians.

You have been criticizing our work since averages were released instead of being appreciative of great effort we put into this. None questioned nor criticised when you made Russian average, but we were thankful you did it.

[Jana]

There are plenty of Russian Gedcoms on Gedmatch, like literally hundreds. Many Russians now take interest in genealogy because of WW2 memorial projects (Great Patriotic War in Russian). This is where I dissent from the majority but at least it prompts so many people to go deep into their family history. Russia even has its own DNA testing company called Genotek (the raw data sucks though).

You see, many would than like to see more refined Russian regional averages and I see it's possible to do. But I see you don't care about that. That's a pity but some of us are thinking differently.
Your choice not to make them, just like some choosed to do so for other countries.

[Leto]

Okay, I will stop posting about Germans. Why should I? I'm not German and they don't particularly like me either. Unlike fucking Piotr I don't have an agenda to present them as Slavic as possible. In fact I find the pure Volga Germans interesting precisely because they have preserved completely German(ic) genetics despite them being surrounded by Russians and other unrelated fuckers.

[Jana]

Okay, I will stop posting about Germans. Why should I? I'm not German and they don't particularly like me either. Unlike fucking Piotr I don't have an agenda to present them as Slavic as possible. In fact I find the pure Volga Germans interesting precisely because they have preserved completely German(ic) genetics despite them being surrounded by Russians and other unrelated fuckers.

You don't need to stop anything, it is just not easy to understand why new averages bug you so much.

[vbnetkhio]

I know little time passed since initial averages release, but we got into possession of very, very large batch of samples with checked and confirmed ancestry from different regions. Updates are already basically ready, but we are struggling with Austria for which we got quite a few kits as well. So much for Leto attacking use of Noricum as stand alone Carinthian average btw, we got other Carinthians and that region (plus Styria) is looking pretty uniform.

So his sample was already decent. Ofc with more Carinthians it will be much better even, we welcome addition of every verified extra kit.
Problem is with upper and lower Austria, samples from there are unexpectedly genetically diverse and we aren't sure how to group them, so waiting for potential few more Austrian kits to get a clearer picture of the area.

That's the reason why this massive update isn't out yet. But trying it to be as fast as possible.

if there's really no visible geographic pattern, just use the official Austrian regions

[Leto]

You see, many would than like to see more refined Russian regional averages and I see it's possible to do. But I see you don't care about that. That's a pity but some of us are thinking differently.
Your choice not to make them, just like some choosed to do so for other countries.
You are right saying Russians do not have as many differences as some others. Why make 15 similar pops? In Russians the difference usually comes down to a percentage of East Eurasian/Mongoloid. Yes, a lot of people were resettled, deported or sent to faraway places, hard to deny that. My mother was born in Uzbekistan, I was born in Moscow oblast. But that isn't our fault. I actually love homogeneous, rooted communities that are tied to their land.

[Leto]

if there's really no visible geographic pattern, just use the official Austrian regions
The only Upper Austrian I know is Mortimer xD

[Jana]

You are right saying Russians do not have as many differences as some others. Why make 15 similar pops? In Russians the difference usually comes down to a percentage of East Eurasian/Mongoloid. Yes, a lot of people were resettled, deported or sent to faraway places, hard to deny that. My mother was born in Uzbekistan, I was born in Moscow oblast. But that isn't our fault. I actually love homogeneous, rooted communities that are tied to their land.

It's nice that you are genetically homogenous (except mini regions like far north etc), Belarusians also as well as vast majority of Ukrainians. But that's really not the case in Germany and even Austria (Austria is even more crazy because mountains I assume). Please understand we are trying to unify averages we get that are almost same genetically (in new update Baden-Württemberg state is just one average because they are all really similar, SW Germans in general are), but still keep relevant information.

My four grandparents were born in 4 different regions and 3 different countries, but that doesn't mean I don't care for deeply rooted regional patterns or think they are not worth to be recorded.

[Leto]

Among the Volga or Russian Germans you can find individuals like this.

North_Atlantic 48.01 Pct
Baltic 21.27 Pct
West_Med 15.83 Pct
West_Asian 2.25 Pct
East_Med 8.62 Pct
Red_Sea 2.88 Pct
South_Asian 0.23 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.91 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Dutch 4.98
2 Southeast_English 5.62
3 West_German 6.38
4 Southwest_English 6.98
5 French 7.27
6 Orcadian 8.06
7 North_Dutch 8.95
8 West_Scottish 9
9 Irish 9.15
10 Danish 9.24
11 North_German 9.55
12 Norwegian 11.28
13 Swedish 12.79
14 Austrian 12.96
15 Spanish_Cataluna 14.11
16 East_German 14.14
17 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 15.02
18 Spanish_Galicia 15.4
19 Portuguese 15.57
20 Southwest_French 15.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.6% Southeast_English + 23.4% Portuguese @ 3.13
2 58.5% Southeast_English + 41.5% French @ 3.16
3 60.1% Norwegian + 39.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.17
4 66.1% North_Dutch + 33.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.19
5 76.5% Southeast_English + 23.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.19
6 76.1% Southeast_English + 23.9% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.21
7 63.7% North_Dutch + 36.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.21
8 57.6% Norwegian + 42.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.23
9 78% Southeast_English + 22% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.25
10 78.9% Southeast_English + 21.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.27
11 66.3% North_Dutch + 33.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.31
12 63% Danish + 37% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.33
13 91.2% Southeast_English + 8.8% Moroccan @ 3.33
14 91% Southeast_English + 9% Algerian @ 3.34
15 91.2% Southeast_English + 8.8% Tunisian @ 3.34
16 60.3% Norwegian + 39.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.36
17 65.4% Danish + 34.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.39
18 64.7% North_Dutch + 35.3% Portuguese @ 3.39
19 58.6% Norwegian + 41.4% Portuguese @ 3.42
20 91.3% Southeast_English + 8.7% Mozabite_Berber @ 3.42

The Baltic is lower than in some Irish/British people!

[Jana]

if there's really no visible geographic pattern, just use the official Austrian regions

It's kind of odd. Carinthia and Styria have visible genetic profile that is Slovenian like. Burgenland is surprisingly different, not so Slavic/south Slavic and more "German shifted" but with notable Slavic also.
Tyrol looks Swiss like and between SW Germans and Alpine Italians. That's all fine.

Lower and Upper Austria/Salzburg are mess. Some are SW German like, some are Swiss like, some are Carinthian/Slavic shifted. And these people have deep ancestry in these areas.
We are trying to get few more samples from these regions to estimate what's best to do.

[Leto]

It's nice that you are genetically homogenous (except mini regions like far north etc), Belarusians also as well as vast majority of Ukrainians. But that's really not the case in Germany and even Austria (Austria is even more crazy because mountains I assume). Please understand we are trying to unify averages we get that are almost same genetically (in new update Baden-Württemberg state is just one average because they are all really similar, SW Germans in general are), but still keep relevant information.

My four grandparents were born in 4 different regions and 3 different countries, but that doesn't mean I don't care for deeply rooted regional patterns or think they are not worth to be recorded.
Okay. My problem is that when there are too many (similar) averages it will cause overfitting or unrealistic models. For example the Brandenburg outlier already popped up in some Slavo-Germanic results. I believe half Volga half Russian or something like that.

Please keep the original German names, they are more colorful IMO :) "Pfalz" is better than "Palatinate" for ex.

[mariusz99]

Stearsolina, do you have in plans to update Polish/ Ukrainian averages or do you think they are good and need no update?

[Leto]

Stearsolina, do you have in plans to update Polish/ Ukrainian averages or do you think they are good and need no update?
vbnetkhio did that last year. Poland is more homogeneous than Germany. Also a lot of resettled people from East to West.

[Mejgusu]

Its interesting that many Germans are genetically Scandinavian+Iberian influence. I expected Scandinavian+Eastern influence in Eastern Germans but not this in Western Germans.

[vbnetkhio]

It's kind of odd. Carinthia and Styria have visible genetic profile that is Slovenian like. Burgenland is surprisingly different, not so Slavic/south Slavic and more "German shifted" but with notable Slavic also.
Tyrol looks Swiss like and between SW Germans and Alpine Italians. That's all fine.

Lower and Upper Austria/Salzburg are mess. Some are SW German like, some are Swiss like, some are Carinthian/Slavic shifted. And these people have deep ancestry in these areas.
We are trying to get few more samples from these regions to estimate what's best to do.

but is there any kind of pattern? maybe a more complicated one, like those closer to Styria and Czechia are both more Slavic, and those in the middle less? if not, just make a geographical Upper and Lower Austrian average.

[Jana]

Okay. My problem is that when there are too many (similar) averages it will cause overfitting or unrealistic models. For example the Brandenburg outlier already popped up in some Slavo-Germanic results. I believe half Volga half Russian or something like that.

Please keep the original German names, they are more colorful IMO :) "Pflalz" is better than "Palatinate" for ex.

That Brandenburg result is heavy outlier, but fully native there and has only German names in last 200 years if not more! That why it important to keep it, likely one smaller entire area of that state plots like that (to get such results with such continuity there must mean other people/Germans around were genetically like that as well).

Btw Davidski uses that sample as example of Sorb, and that person isn't Sorb at all. It has only German names in family tree. Native Brandenburg kits are nightmare to find btw, rothaer searches them for years and nothing.
As for names, agree German names sound better. We wanted them to be more understandable for others, but if others don't mind, can't see why we couldn't use them.

Smaller averages are just when we aren't sure or expect genetic differences in rest of same state/region. For example there is Saxony Ore Mountains average because it was rather different from academic Leipzig samples we had, but in new average it will be gone, other verified Saxons aren't too different from them. Same for BW state, etc.

[vbnetkhio]

Stearsolina, do you have in plans to update Polish/ Ukrainian averages or do you think they are good and need no update?

this is the final version of mine and Peterski's averages:


Poland_Lemko,27.74,37.63,14.89,7.34,9.48,0.24,0.42 ,0.58,0.56,0.60,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Greater_Poland,31.45,43.92,10.26,5.30,5.52, 0.80,0.87,0.09,0.23,0.65,0.48,0.37,0.06
Polish_Kielce,29.3,45.17,10.56,5.45,5.36,0.76,1.36 ,0.15,0.37,0.81,0.4,0.28,0.03
Polish_Kujawy,31.83,45.41,9.95,4.66,3.33,1.47,1.02 ,0.20,0.79,0.93,0.00,0.41,0.00
Polish_Lesser_Poland,31.00,43.23,11.15,5.26,5.63,0 .55,0.47,0.06,0.80,0.85,0.57,0.29,0.16
Polish_Mazovia,28.33,46.20,10.70,5.60,5.04,0.54,1. 20,0.15,0.69,0.66,0.50,0.18,0.20
Polish_North_Wielkopolska,31.98,43.23,10.06,5.79,5 .57,0.87,0.73,0.17,0.19,1.00,0.03,0.35,0.03
Polish_Podlaskie,29.87,46.68,7.30,4.42,6.83,1.65,1 .33,0.00,1.06,0.35,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Silesia,29.25,43.03,12.16,6.16,5.57,0.39,1. 25,0.29,0.64,0.70,0.42,0.16,0.00
Polish_Southeast,28.71,42.67,11.10,6.04,7.21,1.18, 0.44,0.11,1.70,0.23,0.12,0.35,0.13
Polish_Staropolska,29.08,46.18,10.22,4.40,6.59,0.7 7,0.73,0.00,0.45,0.75,0.37,0.46,0.00
Polish_WarmiaMasuria,32.51,44.26,10.88,4.19,3.27,0 .95,1.21,0.16,1.06,0.51,0.33,0.29,0.39

this is not exactly the same as those on Vahaduo now, I don't know what happened there.

[Jana]

but is there any kind of pattern? maybe a more complicated one, like those closer to Styria and Czechia are both more Slavic, and those in the middle less? if not, just make a geographical Upper and Lower Austrian average.

ohh geographic pattern isn't clear yet, still need more kits. And some samples look "too northern" for their location (upper Austrian plotting with Rhinelanders for eg. being totally native there)
than you have Noricum sis in law from lower Austria that's supposed to be more Slavic than upper Austrians and she has Swiss/Tyrol/south shifted Bavarian shift while one Upper Austrian has heavy Slav shift!

a mess.

[Leto]

What is the origin of Davidski's Austrian average? And how many samples were used back then?

[Jana]

What is the origin of Davidski's Austrian average? And how many samples were used back then?

No idea, probably people from Vienna with various backgrounds. It doesn't look very accurate based on results we have so far, too much eastern.
Also working to replace Slovenian and Czech academic averages (Slovenian current one is pretty fine though, Czech less so)

[rothaer]

I don't think g25 has this problem.. k36 does, for example it has a fennoscandian component based on modern Finns, so it can model Finns properly, but it still can't deal with Sami (because of a lack of WHG and EHG components)

G25 has the problem that Northern Easter Germans do get loads of Swedish, which is due to a little Finnish or Finnish-like input in Swedes, that is confused with a Germanic-Slavic mixture. I have two G25 coords where that excessively happens. While this confusion does not at all happen in K36.

[vbnetkhio]

G25 has the problem that Northern Easter Germans do get loads of Swedish, which is due to a little Finnish or Finnish-like input in Swedes, that is confused with a Germanic-Slavic mixture. I have two G25 coords where that excessively happens. While this confusion does not at all happen in K36.

could you share those coordinates? Swedes probably have both Finnish and Baltic influence, north east Germans should have only Balto-Slavic

[Smitty]

As for names, agree German names sound better. We wanted them to be more understandable for others, but if others don't mind, can't see why we couldn't use them.

I think those interested in this subject will naturally be familiar with the proper German nomenclature. If anything, the English might be unfamiliar to them, since English speakers generally don't know much or talk much about Brunswick and Upper Saxony and Hither Pomerania.

[Dunai]

It's kind of odd. Carinthia and Styria have visible genetic profile that is Slovenian like. Burgenland is surprisingly different, not so Slavic/south Slavic and more "German shifted" but with notable Slavic also.
Tyrol looks Swiss like and between SW Germans and Alpine Italians. That's all fine.

Lower and Upper Austria/Salzburg are mess. Some are SW German like, some are Swiss like, some are Carinthian/Slavic shifted. And these people have deep ancestry in these areas.
We are trying to get few more samples from these regions to estimate what's best to do.

Even if regions like Lower and Upper Austria have a vast diversity, you should still do an average based on the geographic/political division, I think. For example Alföld is super diverse, from the northern areas being more similar to North Hungarian results while southern parts are kinda Slovenian-like, even more southern, but I still decided to have them all under this geographic term. Many outliers are natural to be in any region.

[Leto]

No idea, probably people from Vienna with various backgrounds. It doesn't look very accurate based on results we have so far, too much eastern.
Also working to replace Slovenian and Czech academic averages (Slovenian current one is pretty fine though, Czech less so)
Since you respect Dodecad K12b, you could make a few generalized German averages. We already have three (Bavarian by Piotr, some Eastern-ish academic dataset and Creoda's Northwestern). I guess an improvement would be good, especially if you really have a lot of data.

[Dunai]

this is the final version of mine and Peterski's averages:


Poland_Lemko,27.74,37.63,14.89,7.34,9.48,0.24,0.42 ,0.58,0.56,0.60,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Greater_Poland,31.45,43.92,10.26,5.30,5.52, 0.80,0.87,0.09,0.23,0.65,0.48,0.37,0.06
Polish_Kielce,29.3,45.17,10.56,5.45,5.36,0.76,1.36 ,0.15,0.37,0.81,0.4,0.28,0.03
Polish_Kujawy,31.83,45.41,9.95,4.66,3.33,1.47,1.02 ,0.20,0.79,0.93,0.00,0.41,0.00
Polish_Lesser_Poland,31.00,43.23,11.15,5.26,5.63,0 .55,0.47,0.06,0.80,0.85,0.57,0.29,0.16
Polish_Mazovia,28.33,46.20,10.70,5.60,5.04,0.54,1. 20,0.15,0.69,0.66,0.50,0.18,0.20
Polish_North_Wielkopolska,31.98,43.23,10.06,5.79,5 .57,0.87,0.73,0.17,0.19,1.00,0.03,0.35,0.03
Polish_Podlaskie,29.87,46.68,7.30,4.42,6.83,1.65,1 .33,0.00,1.06,0.35,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Silesia,29.25,43.03,12.16,6.16,5.57,0.39,1. 25,0.29,0.64,0.70,0.42,0.16,0.00
Polish_Southeast,28.71,42.67,11.10,6.04,7.21,1.18, 0.44,0.11,1.70,0.23,0.12,0.35,0.13
Polish_Staropolska,29.08,46.18,10.22,4.40,6.59,0.7 7,0.73,0.00,0.45,0.75,0.37,0.46,0.00
Polish_WarmiaMasuria,32.51,44.26,10.88,4.19,3.27,0 .95,1.21,0.16,1.06,0.51,0.33,0.29,0.39

this is not exactly the same as those on Vahaduo now, I don't know what happened there.

I have done a clean-up to the previous Vahaduo sheet and renamed a few things. Southeast became Subcarpathia, like the name of the voivodeship, I moved Lemko under their own category since they are a separate ethnic group from Poles, I deleted Kielce since it is part of Lesser Poland and very similar to them, and also deleted North Wielkopolska since it is part of Greater Poland and very similar to it.

[Jana]

Since you respect Dodecad K12b, you could make a few generalized German averages. We already have three (Bavarian by Piotr, some Eastern-ish academic dataset and Creoda's Northwestern). I guess an improvement would be good,


Yes we will, I promise! For K12b we will make broader regional averages (NW,SW,NE,SE) and German in general, just as you like it :)
Better Austrian reference(s) could be added too.

[vbnetkhio]

I have done a clean-up to the previous Vahaduo sheet and renamed a few things. Southeast became Subcarpathia, like the name of the voivodeship, I moved Lemko under their own category since they are a separate ethnic group from Poles, I deleted Kielce since it is part of Lesser Poland and very similar to them, and also deleted North Wielkopolska since it is part of Greater Poland and very similar to it.

North Wielkopolska, Staropolska and Kielce are by Peterski, I didn't want to remove them since he's the Polish guy around here, but if he agrees with the deletion, than ok.

Southeast is Subcarpathia+Lubelskie+Poles from Lviv, because of a small number of samples.

[Leto]

Yes we will, I promise! For K12b we will make broader regional averages (NW,SW,NE,SE) and German in general, just as you like it :)
Better Austrian reference(s) could be added too.
Awesome! Looking forward to that. Austrian is absent, except for Tyrol (submitted by Brazorf).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

G25 has the problem that Northern Easter Germans do get loads of Swedish, which is due to a little Finnish or Finnish-like input in Swedes, that is confused with a Germanic-Slavic mixture. I have two G25 coords where that excessively happens. While this confusion does not at all happen in K36.

It could be that both Swedes and northeastern Germans have some Baltic or Balto-Slavic input. Shouldn't there have been some recent Swedish influences in those parts of Germany? I speak as an ignoramus, as I am not familiar with the history of the region.

[rothaer]

The only Upper Austrian I know is Mortimer xD

:shocked:

[Leto]

:shocked:
Er ist ein großartiges Beispiel gelungener Integration. Man kann ihn sogar zu einer Pegida-Demo einladen weil er kein Musel ist :D

[Smitty]

It could be that both Swedes and northeastern Germans have some Baltic or Balto-Slavic input. Shouldn't there have been some recent Swedish influences in those parts of Germany? I speak as an ignoramus, as I am not familiar with the history of the region.

Sweden ruled Swedish Pomerania from 1630 to 1815:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Pomerania#/media/File:Swedish_Pomerania_1812.png

I don't know how much population movement there was or how much genetic influence that might have had.

[rothaer]

could you share those coordinates? Swedes probably have both Finnish and Baltic influence, north east Germans should have only Balto-Slavic

Yes.

Most affected is my wife, whose deep ancestry is rural and from Western Mecklenburg only:

rothaer_wife2_scaled,0.133173,0.128972,0.070899,0. 059432,0.041238,0.02259,0.004465,0.012692,0.001432 ,-0.010752,-0.009743,0.001649,-0.005798,0.001239,0.011536,0.004243,0.00013,0.0050 68,0.008673,0.013757,0.007986,0.005441,0.006902,0. 009519,-0.001796

Check her distance against modern individuals (with all that single individuals).

Precautionary: She is not just not from Sweden, but also her genetic is not closest to that. Here's her K36 correlation map, which imo perfectly shows her genetic similarities. She has about 25% proto Slavic.

https://i.imgur.com/UsIdOeG.jpg

I'm less affected after I have abt. 40% proto Slavic, but the more absurd it gets that I at all have a number of Swedes among my lowest distances at G25. My K36 correlation map is also much in line with my ancestry that is somewhat regionally distributed, but well known. There is no notable genetic proximity shown to Sweden.

https://i.imgur.com/F6mQ08b.jpg

My G25 coords:

rothaer_scaled,0.132035,0.133034,0.070144,0.051357 ,0.038161,0.019801,0.00846,0.013846,0.005931,-0.008383,-0.001137,-0.002698,0.003271,0.000413,0.005429,0.005038,0.000 782,-0.004814,0.005656,0.002876,0.006863,-0.001978,0.002342,0.001687,0.002275

[rothaer]

It could be that both Swedes and northeastern Germans have some Baltic or Balto-Slavic input. Shouldn't there have been some recent Swedish influences in those parts of Germany? I speak as an ignoramus, as I am not familiar with the history of the region.

There is no notable recent Swedish input due to history. This is all in church record times, so it is well assessable. The administrational language as well as the court and the responsible high court language was German while the Swedish rule.

But many German families came to Sweden while this period of Swedish rule in Pomerania.

Swedes may have some lower level Balto-Slavic input, but not comparable to that of Northern Germans in the Baltic Sea area. But they do have some Finnish and Sami and alike input, both from somewhat recent times from 16th century on as well as from so called South Sami that may have mingled somewhat into the Swea tribe in Central Sweden. Tellingly I often get Sweden_Sami as close pops in Eurogenes calculators with less components.

See also my answer to vbnetkhio on this topic and feel free to try the G25 coords posted there.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes.

Most affected is my wife, whose deep ancestry is rural and from Western Mecklenburg only:

rothaer_wife2_scaled,0.133173,0.128972,0.070899,0. 059432,0.041238,0.02259,0.004465,0.012692,0.001432 ,-0.010752,-0.009743,0.001649,-0.005798,0.001239,0.011536,0.004243,0.00013,0.0050 68,0.008673,0.013757,0.007986,0.005

Check her distance against modern individuals (with all that single individuals).

Precautionary: She is not just not from Sweden, but also her genetic is not closest to that. Here's her K36 correlation map, which imo perfectly shows her genetic similarities. She has about 25% proto Slavic.

https://i.imgur.com/UsIdOeG.jpg

I'm less affected after I have abt. 40% proto Slavic, but the more absurd it gets that I have a number of Swedes amomg my lowest distances at G25. My K36 correlation map is also much in line with my ancestry that is somewhat regionally distributed, but well known. There is no notable genetic proximity shown to Sweden.

https://i.imgur.com/F6mQ08b.jpg

My G25 coords:

rothaer_scaled,0.132035,0.133034,0.070144,0.051357 ,0.038161,0.019801,0.00846,0.013846,0.005931,-0.008383,-0.001137,-0.002698,0.003271,0.000413,0.005429,0.005038,0.000 782,-0.004814,0.005656,0.002876,0.006863,-0.001978,0.002342,0.001687,0.002275

I almost never check distances in G25, I use it exclusively for modelling, and compare 2 samples or populations by comparing their results in a model.

Distances can be misleading, your closeness to Swedes could be a coincidence, or there could be minor drifts which differentiate from them, but this cannot be seen in the distances.

here's a quick model to show how G25 can clearly tell you apart from the Swedes:
<table><tbody><tr style="height:9.257014652192442em"><td data-columnid="0" class="multiheader"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this, false)">Target</span></div></td><td data-columnid="1" class="multiheader" colspan="2"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Distance</span></div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Irish</span></div></td><td data-columnid="3" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Latvian</span></div></td><td data-columnid="4" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Saami</span></div></td><td data-columnid="5" class="multisources"><div><span onclick="sortByColumn(this)">Ukrainian_Zhytomyr</span></div></td></tr><tr data-rowid="0"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">rothaer_scaled</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01765433</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 2.555349422075315em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(207.29, 60.42%, 57.769999999999996%)">50.6</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.16, 26.68%, 36.08%)">2.4</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.825, 25.35%, 35.225%)">0.5</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(208.725, 57.550000000000004%, 55.925%)">46.5</td></tr><tr data-rowid="1"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">German</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01992125</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 3.1249878415681733em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(199.24, 76.52%, 68.12%)">73.6</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(215.76, 43.480000000000004%, 46.88%)">26.4</td></tr><tr data-rowid="2"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">German_East</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01709299</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 2.4142942324796866em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(207.675, 59.65%, 57.275%)">49.5</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(207.325, 60.35%, 57.725%)">50.5</td></tr><tr data-rowid="3"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Swedish</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.00956413</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 0.5224198341846418em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(198.855, 77.28999999999999%, 68.61500000000001%)">74.7</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(217.37, 40.26%, 44.81%)">21.8</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.23, 26.54%, 35.99%)">2.2</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.545, 25.91%, 35.585%)">1.3</td></tr><tr data-rowid="4"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Polish</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.00748512</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 0em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(219.89, 35.22%, 41.57%)">14.6</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(223.53, 27.94%, 36.89%)">4.2</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:#444455">0.0</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(196.57999999999998, 81.84%, 71.53999999999999%)">81.2</td></tr><tr data-rowid="5"><td onclick="sortByRow(this)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Polish_Kashubian</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.02658709</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 4.8em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(215.76, 43.480000000000004%, 46.88%)">26.4</td><td data-columnid="3" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(209.25, 56.5%, 55.25%)">45.0</td><td data-columnid="4" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.615, 25.77%, 35.495%)">1.1</td><td data-columnid="5" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(215.375, 44.25%, 47.375%)">27.5</td></tr><tr><td onclick="sortByRow(this, true)" data-columnid="0" class="multitargets">Average</td><td data-columnid="1" class="multidistance">0.01638415</td><td class="nonselectable multidistchart" style="background-image: linear-gradient(90deg, #777 40.26958004854996%, #999 40.26958004854996%, #999 44.26958004854996%, #777 44.26958004854996%);"><div style="padding-left: 2.236174802912998em">•</div></td><td data-columnid="2" data-average="0.48233333333333334" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(208.11833333333334, 58.763333333333335%, 56.705%)">48.2</td><td data-columnid="3" data-average="0.12233333333333334" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(220.71833333333333, 33.56333333333333%, 40.505%)">12.2</td><td data-columnid="4" data-average="0.006333333333333333" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(224.77833333333334, 25.44333333333333%, 35.285%)">0.6</td><td data-columnid="5" data-average="0.389" class="multiresult" style="background-color:hsl(211.385, 52.230000000000004%, 52.504999999999995%)">38.9</td></tr></tbody></table>

BTW your wife's results aren't working

[rothaer]

BTW your wife's results aren't working

A copy error. I just corrected it, sorry!

[Sebbo]

We should also keep in mind that Germany is terribly undersampled, both on Eurogenes and Global25. All the regions that should form a cline between the west and the east of the country are missing.

https://i.imgur.com/GQ6JP4O.png


Nice PCA, was it made using Eurogenes K13?

[rothaer]

I almost never check distances in G25, I use it exclusively for modelling, and compare 2 samples or populations by comparing their results in a model.

Distances can be misleading, your closeness to Swedes could be a coincidence, or there could be minor drifts which differentiate from them, but this cannot be seen in the distances.
(...)

Also modelling is just about a mathematical fit by using the 25 coords. If there can not be seen a notable difference in a direct comparison showing distances, the modelling may be wrong too, of course. There are notable genetic differences, displayed in K36 as you see in that earlier posted map of my wife. And here are her distances:

https://i.imgur.com/3ufSPio.jpg

Watch all these Swedish samples. This is almost complete nonsense.

The deficiency of all Eurogenes calculators up to G25 inclusive to in the mentioned aspect correctly distinguish does not eliminate the possibility to get correct models. You "just" get incorrect additional possibilities. (One should have made a "G26" with an additional component resembling "Fennoscandian" in K36 and the problem would be solved. I understand that this can not be done without an incredible effort.)

[rothaer]

Er ist ein großartiges Beispiel gelungener Integration. Man kann ihn sogar zu einer Pegida-Demo einladen weil er kein Musel ist :D

Das dürfte zwanglos erklären, warum ich gegen eine Integration :picard2: bin und auch stets war.

[vbnetkhio]

Also modelling is just about a mathematical fit by using the 25 coords. If there can not be seen a notable difference in a direct comparison showing distances, the modelling may be wrong too, of course. There are notable genetic differences, displayed in K36 as you see in that earlier posted map of my wife. And here are her distances:

https://i.imgur.com/3ufSPio.jpg

Watch all these Swedish samples. This is almost complete nonsense.

The deficiency of all Eurogenes calculators up to G25 inclusive to in the mentioned aspect correctly distinguish does not eliminate the possibility to get correct models. You "just" get incorrect additional possibilities. (One should have made a "G26" with an additional component resembling "Fennoscandian" in K36 and the problem would be solved. I understand that this can not be done without an incredible effort.)

in her modelling, Baltic is prefered to Slavic (that's probably the reason for her similarity to the Swedes), however Saami is much lower that the Swedish average, and within a normal level for the South Baltic coast.

Target: rothaer_wife2_scaled
Distance: 2.0710% / 0.02070996
66.6 Irish
27.2 Latvian
5.6 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.6 Saami

Maybe the problem here is the lack of modern samples in G25 compared to LM genetics.
The Swedes in G25 could be unrepresentative, and there are probably no Northeast Germans among the German samples.

[rothaer]

in her modelling, Baltic is prefered to Slavic (that's probably the reason for her similarity to the Swedes), however Saami is much lower that the Swedish average, and within a normal level for the South Baltic coast.

Target: rothaer_wife2_scaled
Distance: 2.0710% / 0.02070996
66.6 Irish
27.2 Latvian
5.6 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.6 Saami

I agree.

Her result is not that far from what you posted above for Swedes.:

Swedish 0.00956413

74.7 Irish
21.8 Latvian
1.3 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
2.2 Saami

[Leto]

Das dürfte zwanglos erklären, warum ich gegen eine Integration :picard2: bin und auch stets war.
Deutschland hat eine Menge Ost- und Südosteuropäer. Viele leben im Lande schon seit Jahrzehnten und sind deutsche Staatsbürger. Bist du auch gegen ihre Assimilation als Deutsche? Ich glaube die heutige deutsche Gesellschaft ist leider viel zu vielfältig und überfremdet, um je wieder rein deutsch zu werden. Die AfD, obwohl oft als eine rasstische und rechtsextreme Partei abgestempelt, ist nicht prinzipiell gegen jede Einwanderung. Sogar die Identitären sind nicht gegen andere Europäer. Nur Moslems und Neger sind ein Problem für sie.
Übrigens hast du eine Menge Slawenblut, also nicht vollständig westeuropäisch.

[Peterski]

That Brandenburg result is heavy outlier, but fully native there and has only German names in last 200 years if not more! That why it important to keep it, likely one smaller entire area of that state plots like that (to get such results with such continuity there must mean other people/Germans around were genetically like that as well).

Bezkow (Beeskow) is a town in Lusatia, Niederlausitz.

You can see it just a bit south of Frankfurt in this map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Lu%C5%BEicko.jpg


Btw Davidski uses that sample as example of Sorb, and that person isn't Sorb at all. It has only German names in family tree.

Marianne is a culturally germanized Sorb, that's what her son claimed.

And what are these "only German names in last 200 years"?

There is no GEDCOM for this kit, so how did you check the names?

[rothaer]

(...)Bist du auch gegen ihre Assimilation als Deutsche?(...)

Ja. Ich bin der Meinung, daß die Identität sich auf die Volkszugehörigkeit bezieht mit allem, was dazu gehört, und demgemäß viel enger ist, als daß man lediglich nicht Neger oder nicht Moslem sei. Da ich in einem unfreien Land lebe, kann ich mich hier nicht frei äußern und will das daher nicht weiter vertiefen.


Übrigens hast du eine Menge Slawenblut, also nicht vollständig westeuropäisch.

Vollkommen richtig. Das Letzere habe ich auch nie behauptet. Ich bin Deutscher.

[Peterski]

"Only German names" LOL. :picard1: Have you checked the etymology?:

https://www.janecke.name/angaben-zu-personen/familiennamen/m

Mietchen. Niederlausitz. Miet Sorbisch) werfen, fortwerfen ... Speer ... im Kampf: Mietislaw - ein slaw. Vorname, dazu -chen als dteutsche Verkosung.

Mietusch. Sorb. / wendisch. Kosef., Miet von Meti + slaw = schleudern (den Speer + Ruhm)

[rothaer]

"Only German names" LOL. :picard1: Have you checked the etymology?:

https://www.janecke.name/angaben-zu-personen/familiennamen/m

Mietchen. Niederlausitz. Miet Sorbisch) werfen, fortwerfen ... Speer ... im Kampf: Mietislaw - ein slaw. Vorname, dazu -chen als dteutsche Verkosung.

Mietusch. Sorb. / wendisch. Kosef., Miet von Meti + slaw = schleudern (den Speer + Ruhm)
It is a surname of Sorbian origin, only slightly germanized (-chen).

A German name is something else than an etymologically German name. What is an etymologically German name, is clear. And a German name is a name that is used by ethnic Germans and that by its form unveils German language. So Kubicki is a Polish name and Kubitzki is a German name. Like Schultz is German and Szulc is Polish. And Mietchen is a German name, as it is obviously in a German language form.

Stearsolina, to whom you address your criticism, has not checked a pedigree but I told her that the individual in question has done ancestry research and that there is no sign for any ancestor having a Sorabian and not a German ethnicity the last 200 years, which is as far back as her known ancestry at least reaches (information from her son).

That you then in your obsessive way pursuaded the son to adept your insinuations and interpret the genetic result of his mother to be no German (!), and that you then quote him for confirmation, while he essentially just quotes you, is a perversion.


Marianne is a culturally germanized Sorb, that's what her son claimed.

This is so hypocritical that I lack words for it.

It was me that first told you this kit (on 21st of November 2018) and I spoke to the son a lot before you edited him and at that time, while he well knew the genetic results, he had no other view than his mother being a German.

And your intention to declare the DNA kit of an ethnic German for being the kit of an ethnic Sorb (while there are ethnic Sorbs) and forward it to Davidski with this non applicable information as a reference for Sorbs imo is even scientifically fraudulent.

[Peterski]

That you then in your obsessive way pursuaded the poor son to adept your insinuations and interpret the genetic result of his mother to be no German (!), and that you then quote him for confirmation, while he essentially just quotes you, is a perversion.

I did not persuade him to say that his mother is a Sorb. I told him that her results in GEDmatch calculators indicate similarity to academic Oberlausitz Sorbs from the Harvard's Human Origins dataset. He replied - "her ancestors came from the Niederlausitz from a small area around Beeskow since hundreds of years, and hence she is a Sorb but the culture of the Sorbs in this area has been suppressed since the German annexation."


and at that time he had no other view than his mother being a German.

And you guys were looking for a Red Army ancestor to explain her DNA results... :picard1:

Basically the glasses were all the time on his nose, but he couldn't find his glasses.

Maybe he properly did his research on the history of Niederlausitz region later on.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

There is no notable recent Swedish input due to history. This is all in church record times, so it is well assessable. The administrational language as well as the court and the responsible high court language was German while the Swedish rule.

But many German families came to Sweden while this period of Swedish rule in Pomerania.

Swedes may have some lower level Balto-Slavic input, but not comparable to that of Northern Germans in the Baltic Sea area. But they do have some Finnish and Sami and alike input, both from somewhat recent times from 16th century on as well as from so called South Sami that may have mingled somewhat into the Swea tribe in Central Sweden. Tellingly I often get Sweden_Sami as close pops in Eurogenes calculators with less components.

See also my answer to vbnetkhio on this topic and feel free to try the G25 coords posted there.

Global25 has few averages, if there were more other regions would probably be closer. There is a superficial closeness with Sweden because both of you are essentially on a cline between a northwestern population and a more eastern one (Baltic and Finnish in the case of Sweden and Balto-Slavic in the case of East Germany).

Target: rothaer_scaled
Distance: 0.0135% / 0.01348853 | R2P
59.1 Welsh
40.9 Russian_Pskov

Target: rothaer_wife2_scaled
Distance: 0.0178% / 0.01781513 | R2P
76.5 Danish
23.5 Lithuanian_VA

Target: rothaer_wife2_scaled
Distance: 0.0191% / 0.01908691 | R2P
72.6 Icelandic
27.4 Lithuanian_VA

Target: Swedish
Distance: 0.0066% / 0.00662055 | R2P
82.9 Danish
17.1 Finnish_Central

Target: Swedish
Distance: 0.0089% / 0.00886372 | R2P
82.5 Icelandic
17.5 Lithuanian_VA

https://i.imgur.com/B5REtHq.png

[Leto]

Vollkommen richtig. Das Letzere habe ich auch nie behauptet. Ich bin Deutscher. Warum sollte ich "vollständig westeuropäisch" sein oder sein wollen?
Der NS war dezidiert antirussisch bzw. antislawisch. Heute haben einige Leute ein falsches Verständnis vom historischen NS und glauben die seien einfach "weiße Nationalisten" gewesen (und rotgepillt zur J-Frage). Aber in Wirklichkeit waren sie eher deutsche/germanische Suprematisten. Das Slawentum wird oftmals mit dem Russentum assoziiert und nach dem NS und einigen anderen westlichen Rassentheoretikern sind die Russen ein Bastardenvolk, eine Mongolenhorde oder so was ähnliches. Die Deutschen hingegen verstehen sich als ein westliches Volk, unverwandt mit dem östlichen Barbarentum. Deshalb trollte ich dich als einen partiellen Slawen.

[Peterski]

(while there are ethnic Sorbs)

AFAIK, Lower Sorbs are pretty much all germanized by now. Only Upper Sorbs still survive in larger numbers.

You know, most of the Irish can no longer speak Irish, but nobody sane will use their DNA as English references.

And you are suggesting to use a genetically pure Lower Sorb who just lost her language, as a German reference.

As Leto noticed now this "Brandenburg_outlier" will show up in models for a lot of Eastern Europeans as their supposed "German" ancestry. For example I can be modelled as "German_Brandenburg_outlier" plus Dutch, because I'm more western-shifted than this sample.

BTW you know very well that Beeskow is in the region of Niederlausitz, but you called it "German_Brandenburg_outlier".

You could at least call it "German_Niederlausitz" (and probably not such an outlier for local Germans from Niederlausitz).

=====

BTW, all of academic Sorbian samples are Upper Sorbs from one town, Kamenz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamenz

[rothaer]

Der NS war dezidiert antirussisch bzw. antislawisch. Heute haben einige Leute ein falsches Verständnis vom historischen NS und glauben die seien einfach "weiße Nationalisten" gewesen (und rotgepillt zur J-Frage). Aber in Wirklichkeit waren sie eher deutsche/germanische Suprematisten. Das Slawentum wird oftmals mit dem Russentum assoziiert und nach dem NS und einigen anderen westlichen Rassentheoretikern sind die Russen ein Bastardenvolk, eine Mongolenhorde oder so was ähnliches. Die Deutschen hingegen verstehen sich als ein westliches Volk, unverwandt mit dem östlichen Barbarentum. Deshalb trollte ich dich als einen partiellen Slawen.

Alles gut und kein Problem. :)
Ich teile jedoch nicht diese Meinung des NS einer solchen scharfen Abgrenzung. Hingegen sehe ich schon ein kulturelles Gefälle (betreffend die ebenfalls slawischen Tschechen allerdings z. B. nicht). Das ist aber kein Grund, Tatsachen über die eigene Abstammung zu verdrehen und etwas sein zu wollen, was man nicht ist. Ich habe auch noch nicht davon gehört, daß etwa NS-Anhänger in Pommern und Ostpreußen, wo es für den NS hohe Stimmenanteile gab, aufgrund ihrer gut bekannten teilweise erheblichen slawischen Abstammung sich minderwertig gefühlt hätten. Oder daß Otto Skorzeny, Erich v. d. Bach-Zelewski und Odilo Globotschnik wegen ihrer offenkundig auch slawischen Abstammung gering geschätzt worden seien.

[rothaer]

You know, most of the Irish can no longer speak Irish, but nobody sane will use their DNA as English references.

You are tactically pretending cluelessness to catch the uneducated part of the audience when you do such a comparison.

As you very well know, langauge is not how traditionally English ethnicity is defined, but German is.


And you are suggesting to use a genetically pure Lower Sorb who just lost her language, as a German reference.

This is exactly what the German people partly is. So yes, of course. Also Tyroleans are considered Germans, even if they to a biggest proportion are ”just” Germanised previous population, Rhaetians, Romans or what you want to call them. Etc. etc.


As Leto noticed now this "Brandenburg_outlier" will show up in models for a lot of Eastern Europeans as their supposed "German" ancestry.

Shall we withhold facts, because some people are uneducated? When I’m modeled with Avar_Szolad_2, Orcadians and Sardinians I do also not believe that I hail from these places because of that.


For example I can be modelled as "German_Brandenburg_outlier" plus Dutch, because I'm more western-shifted than this sample.

Yes, sorry, that a particular German is genetically more Slavic-like than you. But there's nothing wrong with that modelling. It's applicable.


BTW you know very well that Beeskow is in the region of Niederlausitz, but you called it "German_Brandenburg_outlier".

No, it’s called „German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)“, which is even more precise.


You could at least call it "German_Niederlausitz" (and probably not such an outlier for local Germans from Niederlausitz).

You would surely have done, because you don’t mind mingeling facts with wishes and speculations. Beeskow is not located in today’s Niederlausitz. Also, we don’t know how is the genetic of the German population of Niederlausitz. There have for long times (600-700 years (?)) been loads of non-Sorbs in Lusatia, like in Görlitz and Southern Upper Lusatia.

I stick to the facts and they are perfectly expressed by „German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)“, just stating it’s a German from Beeskow that is an outlier in Brandenburg. More we simply don’t know for now.

[vbnetkhio]

Was this one added to the averages? he's from Jena/Gera, eastern Thuringia




1 Baltic 37.38
2 North_Atlantic 33.73
3 West_Med 8.85
4 West_Asian 8.81
5 East_Med 8.33
6 Oceanian 1.17
7 Red_Sea 0.92
8 Siberian 0.51
9 South_Asian 0.17
10 Amerindian 0.11
11 Northeast_African 0.01

[Peterski]

As you very well know, langauge is not how traditionally English ethnicity is defined, but German is.

Nope. Both German and English are defined by language, but Irish and Sorbian are not defined by language. :)

There is not even such a thing as the Sorbian language, as you know.

There are two languages, as different from each other as Polish from Czech (so they probably use German when communicating between Lower Sorbs & Upper Sorbs).


This is exactly what the German people partly is. So yes, of course. Also Tyroleans are considered Germans, even if they to a biggest proportion are ”just” Germanised previous population, Rhaetians, Romans or what you want to call them. Etc. etc.

Rhaetians and Romans no longer exist to claim back their people, but the Irish and Sorbs still exist (and as you know the goal of the Irish is to claim back, once "Britishized", Ulster).


Beeskow is not located in today’s Niederlausitz.

What the hell is "today's Niederlausitz" ??? So there is "today's" and "yesterday's" ??? No, there is only one Niederlausitz with defined traditional / historical borders since the 16th century IIRC. And I showed you books (all in German) and maps which mention Beeskow as part of it. Including that book "Kurmarkisch-Wendische Distrikt".

And by the way Sorbs are recognized as a minority in all of Brandenburg, not just in Niederlausitz. So even a Sorb living in Prignitz is still a Sorb.

I once asked you what are the criteria of being part of the Sorbian minority but you didn't explain that, so I guess it is about self-identification.


Also, we don’t know how is the genetic of the German population of Niederlausitz. There have for long times (600-700 years (?)) been loads of non-Sorbs in Lusatia, like in Görlitz and Southern Upper Lusatia.

The majority of Germans in Niederlausitz are most likely descended from Germanized Sorbs.

I doubt that the proportion of Germans in Lusatia (especially Lower Lusatia) 600 years ago was higher than that in Upper Silesia.

And yet, you think that Germans from Upper Silesia are very Slavic as a rule, while Germans from Lusatia only in case of outliers.

BTW in Masuria apparently there were some Germans living in towns founded there, before the arrival of Polish/Mazovian settlers.

[vbnetkhio]

Harvard's Human Origins dataset

which dataset is this? is it available only in fastq/bam?

[Peterski]

which dataset is this? is it available only in fastq/bam?

It is Reich Lab's HO dataset.

[Dunai]

AFAIK, Lower Sorbs are pretty much all germanized by now. Only Upper Sorbs still survive in larger numbers.

You know, most of the Irish can no longer speak Irish, but nobody sane will use their DNA as English references.

And you are suggesting to use a genetically pure Lower Sorb who just lost her language, as a German reference.

As Leto noticed now this "Brandenburg_outlier" will show up in models for a lot of Eastern Europeans as their supposed "German" ancestry. For example I can be modelled as "German_Brandenburg_outlier" plus Dutch, because I'm more western-shifted than this sample.

BTW you know very well that Beeskow is in the region of Niederlausitz, but you called it "German_Brandenburg_outlier".

You could at least call it "German_Niederlausitz" (and probably not such an outlier for local Germans from Niederlausitz).

=====

BTW, all of academic Sorbian samples are Upper Sorbs from one town, Kamenz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamenz

I can see a parallel in the case of the Csángó people of Moldavia (East Romania) who are today mostly Romanian speakers, but since they kept intermarrying in their closed communities (villages) they still have a genetic composition distinct from their Moldavian neighbors, and are very similar to Hungarians in Transylvania, even if most of them are Romanian-speakers today. I believe it's good that they aren't included into the Moldavian averages, but added to the average of the Hungarian-speaking Csángós, since their grandparents and their great-grandparents were mostly Hungarian speakers, or better said speakers of the Csángó dialect of Hungarian.

[Jana]

I can see a parallel in the case of the Csángó people of Moldavia (East Romania) who are today mostly Romanian speakers, but since they kept intermarrying in their closed communities (villages) they still have a genetic composition distinct from their Moldavian neighbors, and are very similar to Hungarians in Transylvania, even if most of them are Romanian-speakers today. I believe it's good that they aren't included into the Moldavian averages, but added to the average of the Hungarian-speaking Csángós, since their grandparents and their great-grandparents were mostly Hungarian speakers, or better said speakers of the Csángó dialect of Hungarian.

I don't see any similarity. Brendenburg woman he is mentioning has only German names and German-speaking ancestors as long as she can trace back her family tree. She is not a Sorb, neither had any knowledge about Sorb ancestry.

[noricum]

It's kind of odd.

I'd say it's complex, but can be explained.


and Styria have visible genetic profile that is Slovenian like.

Carinthia and Styria with boardering parts of todays East Tyrol, Upper and Lower Austria and Salzburgs SE (Lungau) were part of Caranthania. Not only current Carinthia as often


Burgenland is surprisingly different, not so Slavic/south Slavic and more "German shifted" but with notable Slavic also.

Burgenland was devastated and largely depopulated in the Turk wars and resettled with German (relaticly many protestants - less intermarriage) and Croat people afterwards. It only became part of Austria in 1921, being part of the hungarian half before.


looks Swiss like and between SW Germans and Alpine Italians. That's all fine.

Vorarlberg and parts of Tyrol (Außerfern) were settled by Alamanic Speaker, might also increase a western shift relative to other Austrians.


and Upper Austria/Salzburg are mess. Some are SW German like, some are Swiss like, some are Carinthian/Slavic shifted. And these people have deep ancestry in these areas.
We are trying to get few more samples from these regions to estimate what's best to do.

Historically it would make sense to have Germanic-like along the danube river through Northern Salzbugg (Flachgau) then Upper and Lower Austria decreasing from west to east, basically looking like a wedge with Carantanian Slavs to the South and Northern Slav "Czech" influence increasing to the North.
Again Germanic influence should be stronger along the danube and on good soils like Wachau.

[Peterski]

I don't see any similarity. Brendenburg woman he is mentioning has only German names and German-speaking ancestors as long as she can trace back her family tree. She is not a Sorb, neither had any knowledge about Sorb ancestry.

If you read about Beeskow history, you will see it was a 100% ethnic Sorbian area until the 1700s, when it was forcibly Germanized through administrative measures (banning of Sorbian languages in churches and schools, replacing it by German language).

There are even books published by Domowina-Verlag etc. about it, for example:

Frido Mětšk, "Der Kurmärkisch-Wendische Distrikt. Ein Beitrag Zur Geschichte Der Territorien Bärwalde, Beeskow, Storkow, Teupitz und Zossen, Unter Besonderer Berücksichtigung Des 16. Bis 18. Jahrhunderts. [With Plates and Maps.]", Instituts für sorbische Volksforschung in Bautzen.

[rothaer]

What the hell is "today's Niederlausitz" ??? So there is "today's" and "yesterday's" ???

You maybe should have checked that before lecturing a German about German language. What is considered Niederlausitz has changed by time and however since abt. 1796 Beeskow is not anymore in what is considered Niederlausitz or Lausitz.

I just add some arbitrary German maps showing what in German is meant by the term Niederlausitz. I've marked Beeskow in red, mostly with a red ring.

https://i.imgur.com/oBSGIfS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/C93uZwn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZljCDKc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kkUCyS3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mWOgIUx.jpg

[Jana]

If you read about Beeskow history, you will see it was a 100% ethnic Sorbian area until the 1700s, when it was Germanized through administrative measures (banning of Sorbian languages in churches and schools, replacing it by German language).

= they are not Sorbs for centuries. Similar like you are product of Polonized non Slavs among other things.

[Peterski]

You maybe should have checked that before lecturing a German about a German region

It is a West Slavic region and I'm a West Slav too.

I checked in Google Graphics "Lusatia maps" and almost all of them show Beeskow as part of Lusatia.

For example: https://i.pinimg.com/564x/64/59/b6/6459b66c8c4ba263d368b67295ad5e91.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/64/59/b6/6459b66c8c4ba263d368b67295ad5e91.jpg

Especially maps by Domowina-Verlag (which is a Sorbian publisher) show Beeskow as part of Lusatia.

[Peterski]

German regions are e.g. Brandenburg and Saxony, but Lusatia is not.

If you were kind enough to the Sorbs to create a separate Bundesland called Lausitz, then maybe I would see it differently.

But Lausitz is not a separate Bundesland, so it is not a German region.

Actually the main reason why it is not a Bundesland, is because you see it as a colony, not one of historic German peoples.

[rothaer]

Nope. Both German and English are defined by language, but Irish and Sorbian are not defined by language. :)


Yeah, by such a sentence you must smile yourself, right?

That this sentence is self contradictory in resepect to Ireland, that should be ethnically 90% English if the first part of your content would be correct, you likely see. Let alone Scotland and Wales.

This is more high level trolling than a serious statement.

[Peterski]

There was also a region called Obodritia, and it does not exist today (at least not as a German region).


That this sentence is self contradictory in resepect to Ireland, that should be ethnically 90% English if the first part of your content would be correct, you likely see.

Only if the English definition tramples and nulifies the Irish definition, which is what you automatically assume (Goliath always tramples David, in your mind).

What was the purpose of English Anglicization policies in Ireland, if not to turn the Irish into the English?

They imposed English language on the native Irish, hoping that it was going to turn them into the English.

[rothaer]

It is a West Slavic region and I'm a West Slav too.

I checked in Google Graphics "Lusatia maps" and almost all of them show Beeskow as part of Lusatia.

For example: https://i.pinimg.com/564x/64/59/b6/6459b66c8c4ba263d368b67295ad5e91.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/64/59/b6/6459b66c8c4ba263d368b67295ad5e91.jpg

Especially maps by Domowina-Verlag (which is a Sorbian publisher) show Beeskow as part of Lusatia.

Yes, but we were talking about what is meant by the German term Niederlausitz, which is what you suggested for labelling a sample from Beeskow.

That there are Dmowski-like maps printed in Prague 1945 expressing some anti-German fantasies is known. There are also maps showing Berlin being in Poland.

The today German term Niederlausitz does not comprise Beeskow. Since more than 200 years. So someone today reading a sample being from Niederlausitz would be misled.

[Peterski]

Sorb in G25 is useful mainly for German users so that they can model themselves as e.g. Dutch + Sorb instead of Dutch + Polish.

(if they want to check their proportion of Germanic and West Slavic)

Check the PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/A1EfJak.png

[Peterski]

does not comprise Beeskow. Since more than 200 years

I'm not interested in modelling my genetic ancestry from 150 years ago. Who needs that? Traditional genealogy can answer that.

I am interested in modelling my genetic ancestry from 500 years ago, 750 years ago, 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, and so on.

Even if Beeskow was excluded from Niederlausitz 200 years ago, the people living there are "living fossils", still the same as their ancestors 200+ years ago. This person is like a "Trilobite", a living fossil who has the same genetics as Sorbs living there 500+ years ago. Or extremely similar at least.

[rothaer]

And you guys were looking for a Red Army ancestor to explain her DNA results... :picard1:

Basically the glasses were all the time on his nose, but he couldn't find his glasses.

Maybe he properly did his research on the history of Niederlausitz region later on.

You are funny. Did you forget that is was you that wrote on 21st of November 2018 9:32 :

"I hope you will be able to rule-out Non-Parental Events."

May people make up their own mind about the character of your presentations.

[rothaer]

I'm not interested in modelling my genetic ancestry from 150 years ago. Who needs that? Traditional genealogy can answer that.

I am interested in modelling my genetic ancestry from 500 years ago, 750 years ago, 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, and so on.

Even if Beeskow was excluded from Niederlausitz 200 years ago, the people living there are "living fossils", still the same as their ancestors 200+ years ago. This person is like a "Trilobite", a living fossil who has the same genetics as Sorbs living there 500+ years ago. Or extremely similar at least.

Don't distract from the discussed topic. It was about the correct labelling of the kit and if "Niederlausitz" is correct for that or not.

[Peterski]

This is more high level trolling than a serious statement.

That was a serious statement, did you really not understand?

The English enforced English language in Ireland, hoping to Anglicize native Irish people and turn them into English.

The Irish, however, despite losing their language, preserved their ethnic identity, which is now not tied to language.

If national law contradicts European Union law and there is a conflict of laws, then which law has priority? Most of national Constitutions claim that they have priority over EU law, and EU law also claims that it has priority over national Constitutions. Is this high level trolling too?

[Jana]

That was a serious statement, did you really not understand?

The English enforced English language in Ireland, hoping to Anglicize native Irish people and turn them into English.

The Irish, however, despite losing their language, preserved their ethnic identity, which is now not tied to language.

If national law contradicts European Union law and there is a conflict of laws, then which law has priority? Most of national Constitutions claim that they have priority over EU law, and EU law also claims that it has priority over national Constitutions. Is this high level trolling too?

Stop writing tiresome nonsense. Person in question is German, not Sorbian, and she did not preserve any sense nor knowledge of Sorbian ancestry.
Your pitiful attempts to justify Davidski using fraudulent sample of Lower Sorb (on your advice) is embarassing.

She is German, not a Sorb, Davidski and you made a mistake and are tricking people.

Apologize, be quiet and try to be smarter next time.

[rothaer]

Sorb in G25 is useful mainly for German users so that they can model themselves as e.g. Dutch + Sorb instead of Dutch + Polish.

(if they want to check their proportion of Germanic and West Slavic)

Check the PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/A1EfJak.png

Thank you. This really displays your understanding of "science". Manipulating data for getting a nicer and smoother result is ultimately disqualifying someone in a scientific context. And also in the question whether he is at all a serious person.

This sample is neither a Sorb nor from Niederlausitz(!).

You can model all the same with "German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)". The only difference is that it would be the truth and not Peterska's nice fantasies.

[Peterski]

She has fully Sorbian ancestry, I already quoted what her son wrote.

And apparently you are also using a sample of a Klaipeda Region Lithuanian as a German.

[rothaer]

Stop writing tiresome nonsense. Person in question is German, not Sorbian, and she did not preserve any sense nor knowledge of Sorbian ancestry.
Your pitiful attempts to justify Davidski using fraudulent sample of Lower Sorb (on your advice) is embarassing.

She is German, not a Sorb, Davidski and you made a mistake and are tricking people.

Apologize, be quiet and try to be smarter next time.

I even think Peterska tricked Davidski by telling him it's a Sorb from Niederlausitz and Davidski was not aware of that this was just an interpretation.

[Jana]

In such case you are disqualified from being an ethnic Pole, considering your low early Slavic ancestry compared to real Poles like Lucas and Roy.

[Jana]

On my G25 Slavic calculator Peterska scores same amount of early Slavic as I do, and I am a mixed Croat (Croats are not as genetically Slavic as Poles). Hahah! xD

Target: Lukasz
Distance: 1.7606% / 0.01760596

90.8 (Balto-)Slavic
9.2 Graeco-Roman

Target: Tomenable
Distance: 2.4891% / 0.02489090

59.8 (Balto-)Slavic
20.0 Germanic
14.2 Celtic_like
6.0 Graeco-Roman

Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 1.6472% / 0.01647246

59.6 (Balto-)Slavic
15.4 Balkan
14.8 Graeco-Roman
8.8 Celtic_like
1.4 Turkic

[Peterski]

Rothaer just cannot stand that Sven told me that his mother is a Sorb, just like he could not stand (before that) that Kramkowski identifies as Polish (as he wrote on Anthrogenica).

Rothaer wants to be the master & ruler of other peoples' identity...

What if we add Kramkowski as "Polish_East_Prussia" to Global25 ??? :)

[Peterski]

By the way, let me guess... Kramkowski is part of your "German_East_Prussia_Masuria" average, right? :)

Even though he identifies as Polish and even migrated back from Germany to Poland and now lives in Poland.

[Jana]

Rothaer just cannot stand that Sven told me that his mother is a Sorb, just like he could not stand (before that) that Kramkowski identifies as Polish (as he wrote on Anthrogenica).

Rothaer wants to be the master & ruler of other peoples' identity...

What if we add Kramkowski as "Polish_East_Prussia" to Global25 ??? :)

Applying your own standards, that sample has nothing to do with Poles, since it's genetically Baltic. Falling in your own traps, wonderful xD

[Peterski]

Applying your own standards, that sample has nothing to do with Poles, since it's genetically Baltic.

Which sample is genetically Baltic ???

Masurians plot exactly like Masovians (Northeast Poles). Nothing Baltic about them.

[Jana]

Which sample is genetically Baltic ???

East Prussia Memelland. It clusters near Lithuanians.

[Peterski]

East Prussia Memelland. It clusters near Lithuanians.

Because they are ethnic Lithuanians - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Lithuanians

[Jana]

Because they are ethnic Lithuanians - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Lithuanians

Some Lithuanians and Balts were Germanized, just like tons of them were Polonised. Better be quiet about Lithuania. Even Lithuanian nobility was Polonised.

[Peterski]

Some Lithuanians were Germanized

Up to 200,000 Lithuanians lived in East Prussia in 1824 (that was ca. 19% of East Prussia's population).


just like tons of them were Polonised. Better be quiet about Lithuania. Even Lithuanian nobility was Polonised.

Poles in Lithuania are not just Polonized Lithuanians. They differ genetically, have real Slavic admixture.

Look at these samples: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?304836-Slavic-admixture-in-South-Lithuania

(BTW since I uploaded them to GEDmatch I keep getting mails from their matches, who are mostly Slavs)

[Jana]

About 200,000 Lithuanians lived in East Prussia in 1824 (and that was 19% of East Prussia's population).



Poles in Lithuania are not just Polonized Lithuanians. They differ genetically, have real Slavic admixture.

Look at these samples: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?304836-Slavic-admixture-in-South-Lithuania

(BTW since I uploaded them to GEDmatch I keep getting mails from their matches, who are mostly Slavs)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization

In 1920, after the staged mutiny of Lucjan Żeligowski, Lithuanian cultural activities in Polish controlled territories were limited and the closure of Lithuanian newspapers and the arrest of their editors occurred. 33 Lithuanian and Belarusian cultural activists were formally expelled from Vilnius on 23 January 1922 and deported to Lithuania. In 1927, as tensions between Lithuania and Poland increased, 48 additional Lithuanian schools were closed and another 11 Lithuanian activists were deported. Following Piłsudski's death in 1935, the Lithuanian minority in Poland again became an object of Polonization policies with greater intensity. 266 Lithuanian schools were closed after 1936 and almost all Lithuanian organizations were banned. Further Polonization ensued as the government encouraged settlement of Polish army veterans in the disputed regions. About 400 Lithuanian reading rooms and libraries were closed in Poland between 1936 and 1938. Following the 1938 Polish ultimatum to Lithuania, Lithuania re-established diplomatic relations with Poland and efforts to Polonize Lithuanians living in Poland decreased somewhat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization#Lithuanian_lands

Poland was Imperialistic power, don't pretend otherwise.

[J. Ketch]

There was also a region called Obodritia, and it does not exist today (at least not as a German region).



Only if the English definition tramples and nulifies the Irish definition, which is what you automatically assume (Goliath always tramples David, in your mind).

What was the purpose of English Anglicization policies in Ireland, if not to turn the Irish into the English?

They imposed English language on the native Irish, hoping that it was going to turn them into the English.
Not true. Yes the English tried to Anglicise the Irish (successfully), but they never considered the Irish to be English. They even called the ethnically English Protestant ascendancy of Ireland Irish in the 18th-20th centuries. Writers like Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, W.B. Yeats, Bram Stoker were Anglo-Irish, but were considered Irish and still are.

[Peterski]

In such case you are disqualified from being an ethnic Pole, considering your low early Slavic ancestry.

No, I'm not different than other Poles from my region and I plot like other Western Poles in Global25, and within the Polish cluster.

Lucas lives in Torun (Kujawsko-Pomorskie), but he is an immigrant there. Indigenous Poles from Kujawsko-Pomorskie plot like me.

[Peterski]

were Anglo-Irish, but were considered Irish and still are.

Hmmm - "Being born in a stable does not make one a horse" - this is an Anglo-Irish proverb that I recall.

They did not consider themselves Irish, but English - despite being born in the proverbial stable (Ireland).

Also, AFAIK most of the Anglo-Irish emigrated back to England after Ireland regained independence.

[Sebbo]

Which sample is genetically Baltic ???

Masurians plot exactly like Masovians (Northeast Poles). Nothing Baltic about them.

I thought it was the case that all East Prussians had some descent from the Old Prussians, be there Germanic, Slavic, or Baltic speakers.

Is that not the case?

[Leto]

Her results in August 2020 (I deleted the account that month) are as follows:

Why did you delete it? That's silly IMO. And the results are most likely not up to date.

[Sebbo]

Why did you delete it? That's silly IMO. And the results are most likely not up to date.

I wanted to see what it said and then get the raw data, my understanding is that the ethnicity estimates are not as good now as they were then anyway.

[Peterski]

(...)

Here is a German-made map showing ethnic Lithuanians ca. year 1876:

(as you can see Wilna was not Lithuanian but much of East Prussia was)

https://i.imgur.com/czoaIiW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/czoaIiW.jpg
http://www.lithuanianmaps.com/images/1876_Litauisches_sprachgebiet2.JPG
http://www.lithuanianmaps.com/images/1876_Litauisches_sprachgebiet2.JPG

[Leto]

Hey Piotr, why are spamming and derailing the thread so hard? It's getting out of hand. I personally would like you to leave the forum for good! :D

[J. Ketch]

Hmmm - "Being born in a stable does not make one a horse" - this is an Anglo-Irish proverb that I recall.

They did not consider themselves Irish, but English - despite being born in the proverbial stable (Ireland).

Also, AFAIK most of the Anglo-Irish emigrated back to England after Ireland regained independence.
That is not an Anglo-Irish proverb, it is a quote by the Irish nationalist MP Daniel O'Connell, referring to the Duke of Wellington (the British national hero) and his supposed Irishness, which was evidently taken for granted in Britain.

https://www.irishphilosophy.com/2018/08/06/oconnell-wellington/

Wait! Isn’t that a quote from Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington? It’s commonly thought to be so, but when it appears in recent biographies it is often with a caveat. For example, though Gregor Dallas simply reports the remark (as an example of Wellington rejecting his homeland)3, Gordon Corrigan calls the remark “apocryphal” 4 and Richard Holmes qualifies his account of how “he was to deny his Irishness” with a cautious “(so it was said)”5 Why the caution?

The caution is due to the fact that there seems to be no contemporary evidence of Wellington ever making this remark. On there other hand there is contemporary evidence O’Connell said it of Wellington. In 1844 Shaw’s Authenticated Report of the Irish State Trials, 18446 was printed. An account of Daniel O’Connell’s trial for conspiracy in January 1844, it includes evidence given of O’Connell’s speeches, including (p. 93) one given at a banquet after the Monster Meeting at Mullaghmast (near Ballitore; the meeting was held Sunday the 1st of October 1843):

The following passage in reference to the Duke of Wellington was received with great laughter: “The poor old duke what shall I say of him. To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse.”



That can be overplayed as a feature of the Anglo-Irish class. Anglo-Irish people found that while they might be regarded as English in Ireland, they would be regarded as Irish in England. They might call themselves Irish on some occasions and English or British on others. Identity was fluid and contingent. Over the 18th century there was an increasing identification of the Anglo-Irish with Ireland (see this post), which was identifiable in Grattan’s parliament of 1793-18019.



This clearly is not the only view of what it means to be Irish. The image at the top of this post shows that, in the year O’Connell made his famous remark, a political cartoonist believed depicting Wellington as an Irish chieftain would make sense to the British public. The detailed account of O’Connell’s trial shows O’Connell denied that Wellington was Irish in answer to a voice saying of Wellington, “He is a bad Irishman.”13. Wellington was, therefore, even in Repeal circles, still regarded as Irish.
I don't know about most Anglo-Irish re-emigrating to England after Independence, regardless, they were considered Irish in England, and the native Irish would never have been claimed as English just because they spoke it. This isn't Central Europe.

[Peterski]

I don't know about most Anglo-Irish re-emigrating to England after Independence

I saw maps showing how much Protestantism declined in Ireland after independence, how to explain it if not by mass emigration of Protestants?

[J. Ketch]

I saw maps showing how much Protestantism declined in Ireland after independence, how to explain it if not by emigration of Protestants?
I'm sure many did emigrate, not just to England, also to the rest of the Empire, or just internally to Ulster. Anyway you're going off on a side issue, I corrected you.

[Jana]

No, I'm not different than other Poles from my region and I plot like other Western Poles in Global25, and within the Polish cluster.

Lucas lives in Torun (Kujawsko-Pomorskie), but he is an immigrant there. Indigenous Poles from Kujawsko-Pomorskie plot like me.

He is mostly Central Polish as far as I know and he is highly (almost fully) early Slavic. You admitted having German surname on your maternal side.

[Peterski]

He is mostly Central Polish as far as I know and he is highly Slavic.

He is mostly from Masovia (around Płock) based on his recent genealogy thread here:

https://slawomirambroziak.pl/forum/index.php?topic=5345.0


You admitted having German surname on your maternal side.

And I tested (autosomal + Y-DNA) my maternal grandpa's brother with this surname.

He turned out to be autosomally more eastern-shifted, and Y-DNA is R1a. Surprising?

Here his coordinates if you want to check (there is some southern admixture as well):


Wladyslaw_Meller_scaled,0.124067,0.125926,0.069767 ,0.059755,0.040007,0.023427,0.00893,0.009,0.007158 ,-0.024602,-0.003735,-0.006444,0.013082,0.017203,-0.012622,0.006099,-0.001434,-0.000633,0.004148,0.013006,-0.002496,-0.005564,0.008134,0.004699,-0.005149

^^^
Check him with your model, I'm curious (probably will be high amount of Greco-Roman).