Who is a real European? Compare? G25

[Cristiano viejo]

Baltics are the most European followed by Scandinavians then western Finns then West Slavs then British and East Slavs afterward comes Germans then Central Europeans such as north French Hungarians and Yugoslavs then Basque then Southern Europeans followed by those European in name only such as Sardinians and Cypriots.

Juasssss

[Laredo]

ANE can mask East Eurasian admixture and isn't a perfect proxy for EHG116747. EHG is thousands of years younger than ANE and will have undergone significant drift and selection during that time, the same applies to CHG which is around half ANE. ANF is also mixed and doesn't perfectly correspond to near eastern which we can't perfectly simulate in calculators because we don't have access to paleolithic MENA samples. Natufian likely has minor admixture but it's the closest we are getting. Regardless using data from studies and then inferring information through mathematics is going to be more accurate than a calculator that isn't technically even designed for admixture and is two degrees of separation removed from the actual GATACA. Baltics are the most European followed by Scandinavians then western Finns then West Slavs then British and East Slavs afterward comes Germans then Central Europeans such as north French Hungarians and Yugoslavs then Basque then Southern Europeans followed by those European in name only such as Sardinians and Cypriots. For example if you break down everything into European HG and Near Eastern specific DNA based on averages, CHG is 50% MENA and ANF is 66% then Englishmen are 38% non-European all of it MENA, whereas Russians are only 34% MENA related due to having low WSH and lower ANF but almost all Russians are around 3% modern East Eurasian so Russians are around 1% more European than the English and very similarly European as to Irish and Scottish.

ANE Is like a castizo component with 30% of N. East Euroasian origin.

[gixajo]

ANE can mask East Eurasian admixture and isn't a perfect proxy for EHG116747. EHG is thousands of years younger than ANE and will have undergone significant drift and selection during that time, the same applies to CHG which is around half ANE. ANF is also mixed and doesn't perfectly correspond to near eastern which we can't perfectly simulate in calculators because we don't have access to paleolithic MENA samples. Natufian likely has minor admixture but it's the closest we are getting. Regardless using data from studies and then inferring information through mathematics is going to be more accurate than a calculator that isn't technically even designed for admixture and is two degrees of separation removed from the actual GATACA. Baltics are the most European followed by Scandinavians then western Finns then West Slavs then British and East Slavs afterward comes Germans then Central Europeans such as north French Hungarians and Yugoslavs then Basque then Southern Europeans followed by those European in name only such as Sardinians and Cypriots. For example if you break down everything into European HG and Near Eastern specific DNA based on averages, CHG is 50% MENA and ANF is 66% then Englishmen are 38% non-European all of it MENA, whereas Russians are only 34% MENA related due to having low WSH and lower ANF but almost all Russians are around 3% East Eurasian so Russians are around 1% more European than the English and very similarly European as to Irish and Scottish.

Sorry, but "Yamnaya" comes after the EEF in terms of Europeanness.

So WHG+EEF is more European than WHG+Yamnaya. :thumb001:

[Ænglishman]

Sorry, but "Yamnaya" comes after the EEF in terms of Europeanness.

So WHG+EEF is more European than WHG+Yamnaya. :thumb001:

Except it doesn't and Yamnaya carries way more European hunter gatherer DNA than ANF and is just as fundamental to modern European genetics. If we are talking about ancient European DNA then Yamnaya wins. If in comparison to modern Europeans Yamnaya also wins because there is a larger number of people whom are more closely related to Yamnaya than ANF due to generally lower population density in Southern Europe, Yamnaya is also more unique to Europe and is distributed more thinly outisde of Europe than ANF is. ANF is only more "European" if you consider central Italy the Zenith of what is unique to Europe or something comparably southern shifted.

[vader]

this is a dumb topic to be discussing. Defining what is european vs not is pretty arbitrary because almost every component has non-european derived ancestry aside from pure whg (and even this group entered europe at some point or another technically speaking). Even some whg were found with traces of outside european influence too! Although, usually lower coverage samples.

All modern europeans have a mixture of steppe + whg + eef to certain degrees. In my opinion, discussing which combination of these components = more european is simply based on who has the most whg dna. But most groups dont have much anymore, it's an old and diluted component to the vast majority of europe. Steppe dna is what remains highest in europeans in the north due to the events around 4,500 years ago. Defining european as only that of a widespread new dna component found in northern european genome is a bit dumb based on the fact that steppe dna is not necessarily super european derived in itself. Albeit, one could argue north euros have the most whg and such could be more justified of a claim. But northern europe also is far more isolated, yet got more of this steppe influence which wasnt present in europe till 4,500 years ago. And I wouldn't consider it "european" in the sense that whg is by any measure. Steppe is a combination of chg - maternally - (caucuses component, 50% of georgian dna, of which people argue is not european here to begin with) + ehg (also not 100% european derived like whg, it has a lot of ANE + whg and some other stuff, including even chg) - paternally. Hence, it's a dumb idea because it doesn't matter who is more "european" or not when european = social identity, geographical identity, culture, and religion. Everything past that is pseudoscience. If we attach so much importance to "who is more european" based on dna than southern italians, greek islanders, and most eef derived groups, with less whg than north euros... arent european. And that is an absurd idea to hold as they are the basis of a massive diffusion of what many european culture, language, and more is seen to be in modern europe. The european civilization as a whole wouldnt be the same without these groups.

[gixajo]

Except it doesn't and Yamnaya carries way more European hunter gatherer DNA than ANF and is just as fundamental to modern European genetics. If we are talking about ancient European DNA then Yamnaya wins. If in comparison to modern Europeans Yamnaya also wins because there is a larger number of people whom are more closely related to Yamnaya than ANF due to generally lower population density in Southern Europe, Yamnaya is also more unique to Europe and is distributed more thinly outisde of Europe than ANF is. ANF is only more "European" if you consider central Italy the Zenith of what is unique to Europe or something comparably southern shifted.

Bla bla bla...north Europe is the best!!!...bla bla bla...South Europe is not Europe...bla bla bla...Vikings were great!!!... bla bla bla... Southerners are swarthy...bla bla bla...mongoloids are wither than MENA...bla bla bla...


;)

[gixajo]

this is a dumb topic to be discussing. Defining what is european vs not is pretty arbitrary because almost every component has non-european derived ancestry aside from whg (and even this group entered europe at some point or another technically speaking).

All modern europeans have a mixture of steppe + whg + eef to certain degrees. In my opinion, discussing which combination of these components = more european is simply based on who has the most whg dna. But most groups dont have much anymore, it's an old and diluted component to the vast majority of europe. Steppe dna is what remains highest due to the events around 4,500 years ago. And I wouldn't consider it "european" in the sense that whg is by any measure. Steppe is a combination of chg - maternally - (caucuses component, 50% of georgian dna, of which people argue is not european here to begin with) + ehg (also not anywhere european derived like whg, it has a lot of ANE and some other stuff) - paternally - + some other stuff. Hence, it's a dumb idea because it doesn't matter who is more "european" or not when european = social identity, geographical identity, culture, and religion. Everything past that is pseudoscience... If we attach so much importance to "who is more european" based on dna than southern italians, greek islanders arent european, and that is an absurd idea to hold.

That's right, but it's funny that these people who were until recently on the periphery of the European phenomenon suddenly set about establishing themselves as the genetic representative of the European...

[Marshall Theodore]

Bla bla bla...north Europe is the best!!!...bla bla bla...South Europe is not Europe...bla bla bla...Vikings were great!!!... bla bla bla... Southerners are swarthy...bla bla bla...mongoloids are wither than MENA...bla bla bla...

;)

Ænglishman usually is very polite and i dont think that he's trying to troll southern euros...

[Ænglishman]

Bla bla bla...north Europe is the best!!!...bla bla bla...South Europe is not Europe...bla bla bla...Vikings were great!!!... bla bla bla... Southerners are swarthy...bla bla bla...mongoloids are wither than MENA...bla bla bla...


;)

Care to make a real argument.

[Ænglishman]

Ænglishman usually is very polite and i dont think that he's trying to troll southern euros...

Thank you especially for reminding me to calm down, I'm easily riled so it's nice to get a bit of a reminder of keeping good behavior.

[Ænglishman]

Ænglishman usually is very polite and i dont think that he's trying to troll southern euros...

Also I remember you asked awhile back about the guys that made the graph with Nganassan showing up in North Euros it's the Max planck institute.

[Marshall Theodore]

Also I remember you asked awhile back about the guys that made the graph with Nganassan showing up in North Euros it's the Max planck institute.

Thank you

[kingmob]

Thread reeks of low testo.

[Jana]

Target: Feiichy_scaled
Distance: 0.0602% / 0.06017201

44.0 AnatolianfarmersENF
31.7 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
18.5 CaucasusCHG
5.7 NorthEurasianANE
0.1 East_Asian

[gixajo]

Ænglishman usually is very polite and i dont think that he's trying to troll southern euros...

It is difficult for me not to take it as a troll as long as he does not stop surreptitiously slipping into his comments the absurd idea that a South European is less European than a North European, because the Sicilian with the most Levantine contribution that we can find has more to do with the European phenomenon than the inhabitant of the Russian steppe or the Baltic with more WHG in the world.

So actually the Levantine component of some individuals is genetically more European than the Yamnaya or HG component of the vast majority of Scandinavians, Baltics, Slavs, and British Islanders.

But how can anyone really take all this seriously? :picard1:

[Ænglishman]

It is difficult for me not to take it as a troll as long as he does not stop surreptitiously slipping into his comments the absurd idea that a South European is less European than a North European, because the Sicilian with the most Levantine contribution that we can find has more to do with the European phenomenon than the inhabitant of the Russian steppe or the Baltic with more WHG in the world.

So actually the Levantine component of some individuals is genetically more European than the Yamnaya or HG component of the vast majority of Scandinavians, Baltics, Slavs, and British Islanders.

But how can anyone really take all this seriously? :picard1:

Please explain what you are referring to as the "European phenomenon" firstly. And secondly my argumentation is that as a result of Southern Europe having a lower population density WSH is more European by default because it makes up a greater proportion of European DNA on average than ANF. The same is true regarding South Europeans because they are the outliers due to being a minority compared to the entirety of the continent, the same is true of extreme North Europeans whom I have described as having what is effectively East Asian mixture on a minor level as compared to the "average" due to elevated levels of ANE via EHG BHG and WSH admixture. If anything it seems to me you are being biased claiming an element with less native DNA and at lower percentages for most of the population of the continent is somehow more "European". Even Europeans with slighlty higher ANF than WSH are usually more closely related to WSH because it's total composite of Mena vs HG is more similar.

[gixajo]

Please explain what you are referring to as the "European phenomenon" firstly. And secondly my argumentation is that as a result of Southern Europe having a lower population density WSH is more European by default because it makes up a greater proportion of European DNA on average than ANF. The same is true regarding South Europeans because they are the outliers due to being a minority compared to the entirety of the continent, the same is true of extreme North Europeans whom I have described as having what is effectively East Asian mixture on a minor level as compared to the "average" due to elevated levels of ANE via EHG BHG and WSH admixture. If anything it seems to me you are being biased claiming an element with less native DNA and at lower percentages for most of the population of the continent is somehow more "European". Even Europeans with slighlty higher ANF than WSH are usually more closely related to WSH because it's total composite of Mena vs HG is more similar.

What is WSH?:)

[Ænglishman]

What is WSH?:)

WesternSteppeHerder
A composite of EHG CHG and minute degree of ANF Roughly 55% EHG 35% CHG 10% ANF which can be translated to 76.5% European HG and 23.5% MENA, or if we break down the ANE it would be 71.04% European HG 9~% East Eurasian and 19.96% MENA. If your question is derogatory and rhetorical the steppe in the namesake largely refers to Ukraine as apposed to the A in ANF referring to Anatolia.

[gixajo]

WesternSteppeHerder
A composite of EHG CHG and minute degree of ANF Roughly 55% EHG 35% CHG 10% ANF which can be translated to 76.5% European HG and 23.5% MENA, or if we break down the ANE it would be 71.04% European HG 9~% East Eurasian and 19.96% MENA

So basically you are saying that Europeans don´t exist and we are just a mix of Asians and MENA/West Asians.

I agree with you.:)

[Ænglishman]

So basically you are saying that Europeans don´t exist and we are just a mix of Asians and MENA/West Asians.

I agree with you.:)

Well I agree that depending on the perspective of the individual what is "European" or any race for that matter varies but I would argue that just because a spectrum of colors exist doesn't mean a particular range cannot be recognized as red or purple or green, the points of division in human genetics are also far more jagged transitioning much less smoothly than in a color spectrum. It is also the case that there were populations that have contributed DNA to Europeans and that are unique to Europe that cannot be classified as simply MENA or East Asian which is the delineating factor that separates North Europeans from Tatars or more comparably Azeris and South Europeans from the Levant that being the Cro magnon descended Gravettians Aurignacians and other forerunners and contributors to WHG and EHG.

[gixajo]

Well I agree that depending on the perspective of the individual what is "European" or any race for that matter varies but I would argue that just because a spectrum of colors exist doesn't mean a particular range cannot be recognized as red or purple or green, the points of division in human genetics are also far more jagged transitioning much less smoothly than in a color spectrum. It is also the case that there were populations that have contributed DNA to Europeans and that are unique to Europe that cannot be classified as simply MENA or East Asian which is the delineating factor that separates North Europeans from Tatars or more comparably Azeris and South Europeans from the Levant that being the Cro magnon descended Gravettians Aurignacians and other forerunners and contributors to WHG and EHG.

Fantastic, so now you changed and who was right was me in my first post.

Now you are the one who relates cultures (Mesolithic and Paleolithic with related lithic industries) with races, but you started by wondering what "the European phenomenon" was.

[Ænglishman]

Fantastic, so now you changed and who was right was me in my first post.

Now you are the one who relates cultures (Mesolithic and Paleolithic with related lithic industries) with races, but you started by wondering what "the European phenomenon" was.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, what I mean as in varies by perspective is that an Italian may consider a Sardinian "White" because they are somewhat related to each other, both I and the Italian consider each other White because we are related but I don't consider Sardinians my relatives due to the distance between us given I have closer composition to some Caucuses populations than to Sardinians and I wouldn't call them "White" for that reason. You also ignored that Yamna is 71-76% European specific to make the point you made previous this and now you ignored the entire paragraph of my previous post advocating the validity of racial categorization in Genetics. Also what are you on about WHG and EHG draw direct descent from Gravettian and Aurignacian related cultures yet have changed over time and gained admixture, the comment I made was to state that those elements are unique to Europe as in rare to non-existent in other populations.

[gixajo]

Also I remember you asked awhile back about the guys that made the graph with Nganassan showing up in North Euros it's the Max planck institute.

With what you just commented (without anyone asking you), are you trying to tell us that the Max Planck Institute (well, some "guys"who have published something under its approval) considers the Nganassan North Europeans*? ;)

*Genetically.

[Ænglishman]

With what you just commented (without anyone asking you), are you trying to tell us that the Max Planck Institute (well, some "guys"who have published something under its approval) considers the Nganassan North Europeans? ;)

No they pointed out that North Europeans have an increased affinity for East Asians as compared to South Europeans which is to be expected given WHG was less basal and carried higher Neanderthal ancestry than modern Euros therefore making it slightly more proximal to East Asians and EHG had direct shared ancestry with East Eurasians via ANE. Nganassans are clearly a Siberian population of East Eurasian origin that carry hoabinhian style ancestry that did not exist in Tianyuan and therefore does not exist in most modern Europeans and are only a bit more proximal to Europe than other East Eurasians via minor ANE admxiture. It's also untrue and a bit rude to imply that my comment was spurious Theodore had posted a graphic from the study some time ago, and asked where it was from, I looked it up but forgot to tell him, he commented here so I told him. I could have done it via a direct message but that would have taken slightly longer.

[Ænglishman]

With what you just commented (without anyone asking you), are you trying to tell us that the Max Planck Institute (well, some "guys"who have published something under its approval) considers the Nganassan North Europeans*? ;)

*Genetically.

My original post may have offended you but it is simply a factual statement that ANF carries less European specific DNA than Yamna even beyond that Yamna is closer in composition to most modern Europeans than ANF. Earlier I listed Baltic populations as being the most "European" because they carry the largest proportion of DNA specific to Europe which was the question this thread posed not "What is the most typical or median ancestry of Europe" for which I would say South Germany French and the northern Balkans. These kinds of threads are always inflammatory and are generally a bad idea.

[gixajo]

No they pointed out that North Europeans have an increased affinity for East Asians as compared to South Europeans which is to be expected given WHG was less basal and carried higher Neanderthal ancestry than modern Euros therefore making it slightly more proximal to East Asians and EHG had direct shared ancestry with East Eurasians via ANE. Nganassans are clearly a Siberian population of East Eurasian origin that carry hoabinhian style ancestry that did not exist in Tianyuan and therefore does not exist in most modern Europeans and are only a bit more proximal to Europe than other East Eurasians via minor ANE admxiture. It's also untrue and a bit rude to imply that my comment was spurious Theodore had posted a graphic from the study some time ago, and asked where it was from, I looked it up but forgot to tell him, he commented here so I told him. I could have done it via a direct message but that would have taken slightly longer.

Fantastic.

I'm sorry I sounded so rude.:)

I may have misunderstood the intentions of your first post and have been unnecessarily and inquisitively rude. I think I understand your point better.

So finally, what do you consider the best representative ancient sample, component, group ...of "Europeanness" among all of those we have?

[gixajo]

Care to make a real argument.

Thanks for your wise and kind advice.

I have also one for you:

Care to remove the wrapper from the candies before eating them.

If you don't, you could believe for the rest of your life that the candy tastes like a wrapper.

[Ænglishman]

Fantastic.

I'm sorry I sounded so rude.:)

I may have misunderstood the intentions of your first post and have been unnecessarily and inquisitively rude. I think I understand your point better.

So finally, what do you consider the best representative sample, component, group of "Europeanness" among all of those we have?

From ancient or modern populations, ancient it's highly relative and can be quite inflammatory, but I would argue Yamna due to it being the most similar to the continent as a whole and having all three necessary components WHG EHG and ANF. As for modern I tend to use central Europeans like the French or others as the standard because they work well as a median and I think it's the most "fair". Also I'm sorry I was a bit harsh in my first response to you because I only looked at your profile for a moment and thought you may have been someone else and for that I should apologize (literacy is overrated :rolleyes:). If you wanted to ask what do I consider the most uniquely European, I would say there is a good argument for WHG and for EHG. WHG is obvious it has the least shared ancestry across continents, as for EHG it is the least widespread on other continents which has a similar affect.

[kingmob]

You should model yourselves with Corded Ware instead, since they are your linguistic ancestors.

Only Albanian, Greek and Armenian speakers come directly from Yamnaya.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers</p>&mdash; Iosif Lazaridis (@iosif_lazaridis) <a href="https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1562894185769754627?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



https://www.hhmi.org/sites/default/files/reich-indo-anatolian-languages-1906x960-v2.jpg

[Ænglishman]

You should model yourselves with Corded Ware instead, since they are your linguistic ancestors.

Only Albanian, Greek and Armenian speakers come directly from Yamnaya.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers</p>— Iosif Lazaridis (@iosif_lazaridis) <a href="https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1562894185769754627?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



https://www.hhmi.org/sites/default/files/reich-indo-anatolian-languages-1906x960-v2.jpg

This is true, but the difference between Yamna which I often use to refer to both Yamnaya proper and Corded Ware is that Corded is around 2% more EHG and 3% more ANF so it has slightly higher WHG and basically the same ANE as Yamna but a little lower CHG.

[kingmob]

This is true, but the difference between Yamna which I often use to refer to both Yamnaya proper and Corded Ware is that Corded is around 2% more EHG and 3% more ANF so it has slightly higher WHG and basically the same ANE as Yamna but a little lower CHG.


LMAO @ g25 percentages, no offense, mate.

[Ænglishman]

LMAO @ g25 percentages, no offense, mate.

What exactly do you mean here, you could be commenting on several things. If you are simply questioning the validity of comparing the populations in G25 I don't see any reason why not to given both are being compared against the same contemporaneous populations so the difference between the two is still going to be a reality even if it could be more accurately described another way. The other thought that comes to mind is that you are confusing Corded Ware with late Corded Ware and just assuming that Europeans have incredibly tiny amounts of Yamna like ancestry which is also wrong given early Corded which is the transmission vector into later cultures is almost identical to Yamna.

[Defcon2]

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 5.0415% / 0.05041453
62.0 AnatolianfarmersENF
17.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
11.8 NorthEurasianANE
5.8 CaucasusCHG
2.8 Yoruba
0.6 East_Asian

44% MENA
17% Euro
3% SSA
0.6% Mongol


ANE can mask East Eurasian admixture and isn't a perfect proxy for EHG116747. EHG is thousands of years younger than ANE and will have undergone significant drift and selection during that time, the same applies to CHG which is around half ANE. ANF is also mixed and doesn't perfectly correspond to near eastern which we can't perfectly simulate in calculators because we don't have access to paleolithic MENA samples. Natufian likely has minor admixture but it's the closest we are getting. Regardless using data from studies and then inferring information through mathematics is going to be more accurate than a calculator that isn't technically even designed for admixture and is two degrees of separation removed from the actual GATACA. Baltics are the most European followed by Scandinavians then western Finns then West Slavs then British and East Slavs afterward comes Germans then Central Europeans such as north French Hungarians and Yugoslavs then Basque then Southern Europeans followed by those European in name only such as Sardinians and Cypriots. For example if you break down everything into European HG and Near Eastern specific DNA based on averages, CHG is 50% MENA and ANF is 66% then Englishmen are 38% non-European all of it MENA, whereas Russians are only 34% MENA related due to having low WSH and lower ANF but almost all Russians are around 3% modern East Eurasian so Russians are around 1% more European than the English and very similarly European as to Irish and Scottish.

What is the ancestral composition of ANE?

[kingmob]

What exactly do you mean here, you could be commenting on several things. If you are simply questioning the validity of comparing the populations in G25 I don't see any reason why not to given both are being compared against the same contemporaneous populations so the difference between the two is still going to be a reality even if it could be more accurately described another way. The other thought that comes to mind is that you are confusing Corded Ware with late Corded Ware and just assuming that Europeans have incredibly tiny amounts of Yamna like ancestry which is also wrong given early Corded which is the transmission vector into later cultures is almost identical to Yamna.


g25 underestimates the contribution of Corded Ware pops in modern European genetics.

Also, it's a really bad way to gauge such admixtures, in general, the lack of outgroup comparison being one of its top flaws, among others. Another one being that all samples occupy a point equally in the projected dimensional space, regardless of their quality as samples, thus giving false affinities, too many things to list.

And Corded Ware languages are intermediate vectors to Yamnaya proper, they are not the same. Yamnaya proper derivatives are only Albanian, Greek and Armenian, and a bunch of other extinct languages.

You are misappropriating those groups by putting them all under one umbrella, imo.

[Ænglishman]

g25 underestimates the contribution of Corded Ware pops in modern European genetics.

Also, it's a really bad way to gauge such admixtures, in general, the lack of outgroup comparison being one of its top flaws, among others. Another one being that all samples occupy a point equally in the projected dimensional space, regardless of their quality as samples, thus giving false affinities, too many things to list.

And Corded Ware languages are intermediate vectors to Yamnaya proper, they are not the same. Yamnaya proper derivatives are only Albanian, Greek and Armenian, and a bunch of other extinct languages.

You are misappropriating those groups by putting them all under one umbrella, imo.

This is largely irrelevant unadmixed Corded Ware is barely genetically distinguishable from Yamnaya and varies less from the average than some regions of the Yamnaya culture proper even late Corded Ware can be modeled as 75% Yamna, also as far as I'm aware both spoke late PIE possibly of different dialects but almost assuredly the same language. As for misappropriating I'm really not ancient Greeks and other West Asians are less than 15% Yamna derived in most cases with the exception of Tajiks, and Yamna most assuredly didn't just contribute to them given Yamna also expanded into the Pannonian basin and into Bulgaria relatively early. Modern Greeks and Albanians also almost assuredly have a mixture of Yamna and Corded ancestry as their steppe component and many other Europeans likely also carry direct Yamna ancestry via admixture into eastern Beakers and other populations around the Pannonian basin, the idea that Yamna is absent isn't based on autosomal DNA anyway it's based on dominating Haplogroups.

[Ænglishman]

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 5.0415% / 0.05041453
62.0 AnatolianfarmersENF
17.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
11.8 NorthEurasianANE
5.8 CaucasusCHG
2.8 Yoruba
0.6 East_Asian

44% MENA
17% Euro
3% SSA
0.6% Mongol



What is the ancestral composition of ANE?

ANE draws roughly 78% of it's ancestry from paleolithic Europeans and the other 22% from an ancient East Asian population.

[kingmob]

As for misappropriating I'm really not ancient Greeks and other West Asians are less than 15% Yamna derived in most cases with the exception of Tajiks, and Yamna most assuredly didn't just contribute to them given Yamna also expanded into the Pannonian basin and into Bulgaria relatively early


You should invent a time machine and travel to BA to tell the yamnaya (not corded ware) ancestors not to mix with the local Pelasgians or Hurrians or w/e, because it hurts your feelings, :lol::lol::lol:



the idea that Yamna is absent isn't based on autosomal DNA anyway it's based on dominating Haplogroups.


Albanians carry 20%+ R-Z2103 (the defining Yamnaya marker, mostly entirely absent in the rest of Europe in lieu of CW haplos) and Armenians 25%+. With Greeks the situation is more complicated and not yet as clear cut, imo.

[Ænglishman]

You should invent a time machine and travel to BA to tell the yamnaya (not corded ware) ancestors not to mix with the local Pelasgians or Hurrians or w/e, because it hurts your feelings, :lol::lol::lol:





Albanians carry 20%+ R-Z2103 (the defining Yamnaya marker, mostly entirely absent in the rest of Europe in lieu of CW haplos) and Armenians 25%+. With Greeks the situation is more complicated and not yet as clear cut, imo.

Not sure what you're talking about it doesn't really "hurt my feelings" because it doesn't pertain to me. As for haplogroups they are completely irrelevant, Swedes can carry haplogroup N while being less than 0.1% derived from modern East Eurasians and West Asians have very little steppe ancestry, Yamnaya is a minor contributor at best not a foundational piece of West Asian ancestry whereas steppe ancestry is foundational to Europeans at large. This is like a Moroccan arguing with Occitan about whom is more Spanish then using Spanish contribution via Moriscos as their trump card while disparaging Basque and Catalan as not technically Spanish.

[Marshall Theodore]

ANE draws roughly 88% of it's ancestry from paleolithic Europeans and the other 22% from an ancient East Asian population.

Sorry, but 88 + 22 = 100? lol

[Ænglishman]

Sorry, but 88 + 22 = 100? lol

Thanks Maths lol :thumb001:

[kingmob]

As for haplogroups they are completely irrelevant


Haplogroups are the only way to be certain of lineage in the span of thousands of years, autosomals get washed out down to 0% after 10 generations, nothing remains from the 11th generation, only thing that's left of them is projected proximity on principal component analysis, haha.

The rest of your post, I don't know what to say, I don't share your european identitarian angst, so w/e floats your boat, mate.

[Marshall Theodore]

ANE draws roughly 78% of it's ancestry from paleolithic Europeans and the other 22% from an ancient East Asian population.

Those paleolithic europeans were a population from Siberia?

[Russki]

CHG is 50% MENA and ANF is 66% then Englishmen are 38% non-European all of it MENA, whereas Russians are only 34% MENA related due to having low WSH and lower ANF but almost all Russians are around 3% modern East Eurasian so Russians are around 1% more European than the English and very similarly European as to Irish and Scottish.


What do you mean? With the ANE reference most Russians don't score any East Eurasian (myself included). If you consider that the ANE itself has an East Eurasian admixture, then all Europeans have it.

I agree with you that the Englishmen are less European than Russians.


https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png

[Marshall Theodore]

If you consider that the ANE itself has an East Eurasian admixture, then all Europeans have it

Nobody denies It (at least who knows something about genetics) and everybody know it, Token (Brazilian user) made several posts on TA about ANE being a mixed component (20% East Eurasian + 80% West Eurasian) with It scoring 30% East Eurasian on Dodecad V3.

We dont work only with G25.

[Ænglishman]

Haplogroups are the only way to be certain of lineage in the span of thousands of years, autosomals get washed out down to 0% after 10 generations, nothing remains from the 11th generation, only thing that's left of them is projected proximity on principal component analysis, haha.

The rest of your post, I don't know what to say, I don't share your european identitarian angst, so w/e floats your boat, mate.

Clearly you have quite a bit of angst given your obsession with claiming a Greek identity on a genetic basis for which you have made numerous threads mocking and attacking others for having diluted ancestry. As for Haplos they really are irrelevant, and no ancestry doesn't get "washed to zero" after just ten generations the fact we can even talk about people carrying ancestry as distinct as "Natufian" or "WHG" ect is clear evidence of that; and autosomal similarity will always trump Haplogroups which represent a miniscule proportion an individual's ancestry.

[kingmob]

Clearly you have quite a bit of angst given your obsession with claiming a Greek identity on a genetic basis for which you have made numerous threads mocking and attacking others for having diluted ancestry.


You need to do some better stalking, my man, you clearly have no clue about my motives.

[Russki]

Nobody denies It (at least who knows something about genetics) and everybody know it, Token (Brazilian user) made several posts on TA about ANE being a mixed component (20% East Eurasian + 80% West Eurasian) with It scoring 30% East Eurasian on Dodecad V3.

We dont work only with G25.


It does not matter whether ANE has East Eurasian admixture or not because all Europeans have it.

If it was something unique to Northern Europeans, it would give some kind of leverage to Southern Europeans, but Southern Europeans also score it.

[Ænglishman]

You need to do some better stalking, my man, you clearly have no clue about my motives.

I've seen you before on numerous threads I've browsed and gave you every courtesy in spite of your behavior. So do go on enlighten me about why starting this conversation by claiming I was appropriating WSH ancestry before mocking me while contributing nothing of substance as a counter point is motivated by something other than chauvinism.

[Ænglishman]

It does not matter whether ANE has East Eurasian admixture or not because all Europeans have it.

If it was something unique to Northern Europeans, it would give some kind of leverage to Southern Europeans, but Southern Europeans also score it.

Why should you care it's part of what you are and you aren't Southern in the same capacity I doubt many Southern Europeans care about the composition of ANF because they have no desire to be Lithuanian. Regardless I specifically state Russians as having around 2-3% modern East Eurasian ancestry as opposed to that carried via ANE which is parroted by most studies, even Finns can be made to have 0% East Eurasian in favor of ANE depending on what samples you use.

[Russki]

I specifically state Russians as having around 2-3% modern East Eurasian


You specifically said wrong.

The only thing you said correct is that the English are less European than Russians.


https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png

[Marshall Theodore]

If it was something unique to Northern Europeans, it would give some kind of leverage to Southern Europeans, but Southern Europeans also score it.

So what? Northern Europeans (specially russians) score much more, cope, too much kalkulatortardism from your part

[Marshall Theodore]

You specifically said wrong.

The only thing you said correct is that the English are less European than Russians.


https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png

Your obsession with G25 is utterly funny lelz,

[Ænglishman]

You specifically said wrong.

The only thing you said correct is that the English are less European than Russians.


https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png
Look Finns don't have any Asian either 116760, isn't G25 magical. Seriously though Most studies conclude Russians to have minute East Eurasian ancestry in some regions as high as 13% and in others down to trace elements but when referencing Muscovites or Russians as a whole a good guess is something like 1-2%.

[kingmob]

I've seen you before on numerous threads I've browsed and gave you every courtesy in spite of your behavior. So do go on enlighten me about why starting this conversation by claiming I was appropriating WSH ancestry before mocking me while contributing nothing of substance as a counter point is motivated by something other than chauvinism.


I think I contributed, you just wanted none of it, which is fair enough.

Southern Arc short-circuit'ed your kind, not my fault nor my problem, though, mate.

[Ænglishman]

I think I contributed, you just wanted none of it, which is fair enough.

Southern Arc short-circuit'ed your kind, not my fault nor my problem, though, mate.

And what exactly did you contribute you haven't made any argument aside from stating that a Yamna specific sub clade is somewhat represented in Albania and Armenia. Also, how is the Southern arc hypothesis a relevant topic and why would you even bring it up?

[kingmob]

And what exactly did you contribute you haven't made any argument aside from stating that a Yamna specific sub clade is somewhat represented in Albania and Armenia. Also, how is the Southern arc hypothesis a relevant topic and why would you even bring it up?


Don't worry, my posts weren't meant for you to begin with.

Southern Arc "hypothesis", haha. You, guys, are a broken record now, need new lines.

[Ænglishman]

Don't worry, my posts weren't meant for you to begin with.

Southern Arc "hypothesis", haha. You, guys, are a broken record now, need new lines.

Definitely no bias in this statement whatsoever :laugh:.

[Russki]

Look Finns don't have any Asian either


Finns do score East Eurasian if you use ANE source, and so do North-Eastern Russians.

You can show me studies which use ANE as a source.





isn't G25 magical


G25 doesn't hide East Eurasian admixture, on the contrary it can inflate it and if you use a Yamnaya source (WSH as you call it) instead of ANE, a small East Eurasian admixture will show up in Russians and Estonians, but the truth is that not all of ANE in Europe comes from Yamnaya.

I can show you how it works if you actually understand it and show me academic studies which use ANE as an admixture component. From what I've seen, all of them use Yamnaya.

[Gallop]

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 4.2934% / 0.04293416
56.4 AnatolianfarmersENF
24.8 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
11.6 CaucasusCHG
5.0 NorthEurasianANE
1.6 Yoruba
0.6 NearEast


Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 4.1704% / 0.04170404
57.0 AnatolianfarmersENF
24.8 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
9.8 CaucasusCHG
5.0 NorthEurasianANE
2.6 Yoruba
0.8 NearEast




Quiero ser mongólico, tienen menos problemas. :rotfl:

[Ænglishman]

Finns do score East Eurasian if you use ANE source, and so do North-Eastern Russians.

You can show me studies which use ANE as a source.







G25 doesn't hide East Eurasian admixture, on the contrary it can inflate it and if you use a Yamnaya source (WSH as you call it) instead of ANE, a small East Eurasian admixture will show up in Russians and Estonians, but the truth is that not all of ANE in Europe comes from Yamnaya.

I can show you how it works if you actually understand it and show me academic studies which use ANE as an admixture component. From what I've seen, all of them use Yamnaya.

There is no ANE in Europe at that time the closest would be EHG every pure ANE population had been mixed out of existence by the Time of the Russian ethnogenesis and Russians don't prefer EHG over BHG they score a mixture of East Eurasian and BHG 116761

[gixajo]

Finns do score East Eurasian if you use ANE source, and so do North-Eastern Russians.

You can show me studies which use ANE as a source.







G25 doesn't hide East Eurasian admixture, on the contrary it can inflate it and if you use a Yamnaya source (WSH as you call it) instead of ANE, a small East Eurasian admixture will show up in Russians and Estonians, but the truth is that not all of ANE in Europe comes from Yamnaya.

I can show you how it works if you actually understand it and show me academic studies which use ANE as an admixture component. From what I've seen, all of them use Yamnaya.

I think he considers ANE a "native European" component since it seems to be a fundamental part of the genetic base of European hunter gatherers. It´s just one of the several point of view that could be accepted to settle this issue.

And for this reason, he considers that the EEF that would have little WSH would be less "European natives" than the Yamnaya, which seem to have a good contribution of this component.

Although it would be necessary to consider whether the ANE contribution is an Asian contribution that became the basis of HG genetics once it was mixed with some other local European component.

That is, something similar to the Neolithic LBK (Barcin_N+WHG). They are European because they are something different from the original Barcin_N.

So I would stablish any European WHG as a "native European" component rather than one of the components (ANE) of two of the main components of modern Europeans (EEF and WSH).

I don't know if I have explained myself well enough, I always have doubts about conveying the message well in a language that is not mine.

But I also asked myself the same question you does. Do we really have any samples that can be effectively used as ANE references, or just "possible" ANEs like the "mammoth hunter" or proxies based on modern populations like the Kets?

I have not gone into much depth with all this paleogenetics, and less related to ANE, if you think I am saying something wrong, do not hesitate to correct me (maybe I won't let you do it). :)

[Laredo]

I think he considers ANE a "native European" component since it seems to be a fundamental part of the genetic base of European hunter gatherers. It´s just one of the several point of view that could be accepted to settle this issue.

And for this reason, he considers that the EEF that would have little WSH would be less "European natives" than the Yamnaya, which seem to have a good contribution of this component.

Although it would be necessary to consider whether the ANE contribution is an Asian contribution that became the basis of HG genetics once it was mixed with some other local European component.

That is, something similar to the Neolithic LBK (Barcin_N+WHG). They are European because they are something different from the original Barcin_N.

So I would target any European WHG as a "native European" component rather than one of the components (ANE) of two of the main components of modern Europeans (EEF and WSH).

I don't know if I have explained myself well enough, I always have doubts about conveying the message well in a language that is not mine.

But I also asked myself the same question you does. Do we really have any samples that can be effectively used as ANE references, or just "possible" ANEs like the "mammoth hunter" or proxies based on modern populations like the Kets?

I have not gone into much depth with all this paleogenetics, and less related to ANE, if you think I am saying something wrong, do not hesitate to correct me (maybe I won't let you do it). :)

Y que piensas de los amerindios con este component? Son realmente cercanos a los Europeos? Diras que los amerindios geneticamente son Como una antigua mezcla tipo mestizo? En vez de ser 100% East Asian?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

So the question is basically, who is really an abstract concept?

[gixajo]

So the question is basically, who is really an abstract concept?

More than abstract, I would say difficult to specify, blurry and highly subject to interpretation.

As you are a native English speaker. Is my previous text understandable in my horrible English?

[gixajo]

Y que piensas de los amerindios con este component? Son realmente cercanos a los Europeos? Diras que los amerindios geneticamente son Como una antigua mezcla tipo mestizo? En vez de ser 100% East Asian?

Ese es uno de los problemas que yo veo, que ANE en realidad es un componente común a muchas gentes muy diferentes y lejanas* de Europa, porque como su nombre bien indica, sería Nor-euroasiáticos y los amerindios tienen también un buen porcentaje de él, y todos los asiáticos en mayor o menor medida.

Pero igual he interpretado mal lo que opina, a ver que opina de lo que (intenté) expresar en el post. Posiblemente lo matice.

*alejadas de

[Friends of Oliver Society]

More than abstract, I would say difficult to specify, blurry and highly subject to interpretation.

As you are a native English speaker. Is my previous text understandable in my horrible English?

Yes.

[Laredo]

Ese es uno de los problemas que yo veo, que ANE en realidad es un componente común a muchas gentes muy diferentes y lejanas de Europa, porque como su nombre bien indica, sería Nor-euroasiáticos y los amerindios tienen también un buen porcentaje de él, y todos los asiáticos en mayor o menor medida.

Pero igual he interpretado mal lo que opina, a ver que opina de lo que (intenté) expresar en el post. Posiblemente lo matice.

De hecho es mucho mas comun en poblaciones Caucasicas/west euroasian que los chinos japoneses Como Englishman menciono mas bien es como un componente tipo castizo 70-75 y 25-30% east asian /mongoloid origin

[Marshall Theodore]

De hecho es mucho mas comun en poblaciones Caucasicas/west euroasian que los chinos japoneses Como Englishman menciono mas bien es como un componente tipo castizo 70-75 y 25-30% east asian /mongoloid origin

ANE were clearly a mixed component dude, more like 80% Caucasoid + 20% Old ching chong, and discuting about it is a waste of time.

[Laredo]

ANE were clearly a mixed component dude, more like 80% Caucasoid + 20% Old ching chong, and discuting about it is a waste of time.

Yup, that's exactly what I been saying and all genetic studies I've read confirms that, Amerindians are part of that too.

Full natives on gedmatch are on average 20-30% west eurosian and on gedmatch gedrosia k3 I'm 65/66% west eurosian 30/31% mongloid and 3% black

[Ænglishman]

More than abstract, I would say difficult to specify, blurry and highly subject to interpretation.

As you are a native English speaker. Is my previous text understandable in my horrible English?

Please educate me if I'm wrong but as to my knowledge ANE is mostly derived from a Sunghir like source which itself has strong affinity for Vestonice and other paleolithic central Europeans with additional input from an Asian source similar to Ust Ishim and Tianyuan of between 22-30%.

[gixajo]

Yup, that's exactly what I been saying and all genetic studies I've read confirms that, Amerindians are part of that too.

Full natives on gedmatch are on average 20-30% west eurosian and on gedmatch gedrosia k3 I'm 65/66% west eurosian 30/31% mongloid and 3% black

It is also true that the further back we go in time, at least in modern humans, there should be less genetic variety, and eventually we would reach a point in time where from a single population or group we would all descend.

It must also be taken into account that even the most homogeneous group on the planet, without ever receiving any foreign contribution, would eventually end up being different from the initial group, simply due to natural DNA mutations.

[Russki]

There is no ANE in Europe at that time the closest would be EHG every pure ANE population had been mixed out of existence by the Time of the Russian ethnogenesis and Russians don't prefer EHG over BHG they score a mixture of East Eurasian and BHG 116761


This is absolutely correct, ANE was fully mixed into EHG.


https://i.imgur.com/54r52iX.png






Calculator picks up a younger population (Yamnaya/WSH) over other components even if they can't score that much Yamnaya/WSH, as was proven here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341277-Dodecad-k12b-West-amp-Central-Asian-results-Vol-4&p=7515096&viewfull=1#post7515096

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341277-Dodecad-k12b-West-amp-Central-Asian-results-Vol-4&p=7515120&viewfull=1#post7515120

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341277-Dodecad-k12b-West-amp-Central-Asian-results-Vol-4&p=7515130&viewfull=1#post7515130





Can you show me academic studies which use ANE reference? You forgot about them, but I will remind.

[Ænglishman]

This is absolutely correct, ANE was fully mixed into EHG.


https://i.imgur.com/54r52iX.png






Calculator picks up a younger population (Yamnaya/WSH) over other components even if they can't score that much Yamnaya/WSH, as was proven here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341277-Dodecad-k12b-West-amp-Central-Asian-results-Vol-4&p=7515096&viewfull=1#post7515096

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341277-Dodecad-k12b-West-amp-Central-Asian-results-Vol-4&p=7515120&viewfull=1#post7515120

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341277-Dodecad-k12b-West-amp-Central-Asian-results-Vol-4&p=7515130&viewfull=1#post7515130





Can you show me academic studies which use ANE reference? You forgot about them, but I will remind.

You do realize the same methodology you're using gets Finns two to three times less East Asian ancestry than we know they have as fact and is guaranteed to be suppressing Siberian admixture in Russians too, right? Also here you go this is the first one that comes to mind https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/ The relevant bits are below as images. This definitely isn't representative of all of Russia but it's hard to dismiss that a significant proportion of the population carries East Eurasian ancestry, and the average is definitely going to be about 1-2% which lines up with the results we get in calculators pretty much perfectly. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like to me that you have to specifically design a sample set to suppress East Eurasian admixture to not pick up minor Siberian influence in most of Russia. I would like to also clarify that I'm not saying this to be insulting it's just my personal observation and I don't really care about miniscule admixtures like this personally.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=116515&d=1670054915
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=116514&d=1670054769

[Avgvstvs]

Who is a real european?

As a southern european, i'm saying southern europeans are.

A northern european will say northern europeans are.

Eastern europeans will say eastern europeans are.

Some will say only northern and eastern are, some others that only western and northern europeans are and so on.


I hope this is clear.

Inviato dal mio SM-A405FN utilizzando Tapatalk

[Russki]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=116515&d=1670054915
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=116514&d=1670054769








I'm not sure for what did you post a PCA where Russians plot near Finns and Mordvins. Trolling?

Of course I'm not lazy enough and will show that it's a sample from North-Eastern Russia.


https://sun9-19.userapi.com/impg/oW8oerN49OH8Jlfu7xoe4Enp_ckfXFYN1H8OkA/Ejj9sFWUA_8.jpg?size=663x541&quality=95&sign=a65d777f45eb97d754f64173b7e2c64b&type=album

[Vanily]

Who is a real european?

As a southern european, i'm saying southern europeans are.

A northern european will say northern europeans are.

Eastern europeans will say eastern europeans are.

Some will say only northern and eastern are, some others that only western and northern europeans are and so on.


I hope this is clear.

Inviato dal mio SM-A405FN utilizzando Tapatalk

All Europeans are 100% Europeans because it's a relatively modern identity and appeared after all our ancestors were already mixed.
And this fact doesn't contradict the fact that all these ancestral populations came from outside Europe.

[Ænglishman]

I'm not sure for what did you post a PCA where Russians plot near Finns and Mordvins. Trolling?

Of course I'm not lazy enough and will show that it's a sample from North-Eastern Russia.


https://sun9-19.userapi.com/impg/oW8oerN49OH8Jlfu7xoe4Enp_ckfXFYN1H8OkA/Ejj9sFWUA_8.jpg?size=663x541&quality=95&sign=a65d777f45eb97d754f64173b7e2c64b&type=album

Three things you are doing here, one you didn't respond to me which means I can only rebuff this argument because I happened to check this thread again, though this may just be an error from the site. Two you failed to address your method suppressing Siberian admixture. Three you clearly didn't read the study wherein it is specified that the Russian samples plural, came from the north-west and you ignored that I openly stated that they weren't typical for the average. The Russian federation is close to 81% Russian, we know Russians inhabiting Northern, East-Central, South-Eastern, and Eastern Russia carry usually 2-4 but up to 13% East Eurasian admixture in areas like Archangelsk and nobody is going to argue Siberian colonists don't carry at least a bit. So how much of the population is distributed in areas with trace to no East Eurasian admixture, from what I can tell only around a quarter. Calculators also consistently find the exact amount we should be expecting to have spread about the population 1-2%, unless you try to model them with an ancient population they never mixed directly with that is autosomally closer to them than farther Eastern groups and also exclude modern relatives they actually derive ancestry from like Yamna.

[Beowulf]

my great grandfathers:

Target: BisabuelaAntonia
Distance: 5.2175% / 0.05217518
48.8 AnatolianfarmersENF
29.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
13.0 CaucasusCHG
9.2 NorthEurasianANE

Target: SebastianDuránDeUgalde
Distance: 4.4308% / 0.04430813
60.2 AnatolianfarmersENF
25.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
9.2 CaucasusCHG
5.6 NorthEurasianANE

[Leferena]

Target: Leferena_scaled
Distance: 4.8196% / 0.04819622
56.4 AnatolianfarmersENF
20.8 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
9.2 CaucasusCHG
7.4 NorthEurasianANE
5.4 NearEast
0.8 Yoruba

[vasiliki23]

Target: VASILIKI_scaled
Distance: 4.2930% / 0.04292981
56.0 AnatolianfarmersENF
15.0 CaucasusCHG
14.6 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
8.8 NorthEurasianANE
5.6 NearEast

[Sandis]

Generally would be more correct that real Europeans are those with the most European-born ancestors. I wish i i could calculate it.
Another version is that real Europeans are those who are genetically closest to average European in a specific period of time - easier to calculate, but the result will not be the same as 1.

[Marshall Theodore]

Generally would be more correct that real Europeans are those with the most European-born ancestors. I wish i i could calculate it.
Another version is that real Europeans are those who are genetically closest to average European in a specific period of time - easier to calculate, but the result will not be the same as 1.

Then who are real europeans? Those with higher WHG? Barcin? Steppe?

[Eurafricanid]

Target: Jgab602EuroProxy_Scaled
Distance: 3.9852% / 0.03985236
56.6 AnatolianfarmersENF
21.8 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
11.0 CaucasusCHG
6.6 NorthEurasianANE
4.0 NearEast

[Eurafricanid]

Better Proxy:

Target: Jgab602EuroProxy_Scaled
Distance: 3.6770% / 0.03676968
57.4 AnatolianfarmersENF
21.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
10.8 CaucasusCHG
6.2 NorthEurasianANE
4.6 NearEast

[Kenshiro]

Target: Kenshiro_scaled
Distance: 2.9783% / 0.02978328
55.8 AnatolianfarmersENF
18.8 CaucasusCHG
12.4 NorthEurasianANE
8.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
5.0 NearEast

[unmoggable]

>finns and russians more european than germans
seems legit.

[Vessna]

>finns and russians more european than germans
seems legit.

Why not?

[Vessna]

Target: Vessna_scaled
Distance: 8.1617% / 0.08161738
38.4 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
35.2 AnatolianfarmersENF
13.6 CaucasusCHG
12.8 NorthEurasianANE


Distance to: Vessna_scaled
0.22465920 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:SHG:I0011
0.22574245 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:SHG:I0015
0.22736007 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:SHG:I0014
0.22836308 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:SHG:sf12
0.24443713 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:SHG:I0012
0.24849444 AnatolianfarmersENF
0.24929044 NearEast:Levant_BA_North:ERS1790729
0.25797850 NearEast:Levant_BA_South:I1705
0.26843511 NearEast:Levant_ChL:I0644
0.27097044 NorthEurasianANE:MA1
0.28809031 CaucasusCHG:KK1
0.29483576 NearEast:Levant_N:I0867
0.31356807 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:WHG:I1875
0.32479850 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:WHG
0.33424881 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG:WHG:Rochedane
0.59508919 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00777
0.60219938 East_Asian:Han:S_Han-1
0.60401149 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00783
0.60432779 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00780
0.60448152 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00782
0.60890368 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00778
0.60916974 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00779
0.61093956 East_Asian:Han:B_Han-3
0.61301805 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00775
0.61576563 East_Asian:Han:HGDP00776

[oszkar07]

Target: Oszkar
Distance: 6.1009% / 0.06100884
44.2 AnatolianfarmersENF
32.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
14.4 CaucasusCHG
9.4 NorthEurasianANE

[Rhegion]

Target: Me
Distance: 3.3882% / 0.03388202
39.6 AnatolianfarmersENF
29.2 NearEast
18.6 CaucasusCHG
7.6 NorthEurasianANE
5.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG

Target: Father
Distance: 2.5871% / 0.02587065
40.4 AnatolianfarmersENF
32.6 NearEast
13.8 CaucasusCHG
7.8 NorthEurasianANE
5.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
0.4 Yoruba

Target: Maternal_Grandpa
Distance: 2.6919% / 0.02691945
48.6 AnatolianfarmersENF
20.6 NearEast
19.0 CaucasusCHG
6.4 NorthEurasianANE
4.8 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
0.6 Yoruba

Target: Maternal_Grandma
Distance: 2.6175% / 0.02617548
40.0 AnatolianfarmersENF
30.6 NearEast
19.4 CaucasusCHG
5.6 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
3.6 NorthEurasianANE
0.8 Yoruba

Target: Cousin
Distance: 2.1187% / 0.02118687
45.6 AnatolianfarmersENF
25.6 NearEast
17.2 CaucasusCHG
7.6 NorthEurasianANE
3.0 NativeEuropeanSHG/WHG
1.0 Yoruba

[Demirkazık]

Target: Demir
Distance: 4.0414% / 0.04041449
28.0 AnatolianfarmersENF
24.4 NearEast
19.8 CaucasusCHG
17.2 NorthEurasianANE
10.6 East_Asian