Anatolian Hunter-Gatherer GEDmatch

[Peterski]

From this study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/09/20/422295.full.pdf

I uploaded this prehistoric man to GEDmatch:

Sample: ZBC IPB001.B/C0101
AHG (Anatolian Hunter-Gatherer)
Age: 13,642-13,073 cal BCE
Haplogroup Y-DNA: C1a2
Haplogroup mtDNA: K2b

GEDmatch Genesis kit number - DY9790520

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 46.28
2 East_Med 24.06
3 Atlantic 18.82
4 North_Sea 5.07
5 Red_Sea 4.92
6 Baltic 0.86

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 6.95
2 North_Italian 27.3
3 Tuscan 27.31
4 West_Sicilian 28.11
5 Spanish_Andalucia 28.13
6 Algerian_Jewish 28.9
7 South_Italian 29.57
8 Spanish_Extremadura 29.74
9 Italian_Jewish 29.8
10 Spanish_Valencia 30.09
11 East_Sicilian 30.2
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 30.25
13 Portuguese 30.26
14 Spanish_Murcia 30.28
15 Moroccan 30.53
16 Mozabite_Berber 30.53
17 Spanish_Aragon 30.56
18 Spanish_Cantabria 30.88
19 Central_Greek 30.88
20 Greek 30.94

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90.4% Sardinian + 9.6% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.07
2 91.1% Sardinian + 8.9% Saudi @ 4.69
3 88.9% Sardinian + 11.1% Samaritan @ 4.74
4 89.7% Sardinian + 10.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.84
5 89.8% Sardinian + 10.2% Palestinian @ 4.86
6 90.3% Sardinian + 9.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.9
7 87.4% Sardinian + 12.6% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.02
8 90.1% Sardinian + 9.9% Egyptian @ 5.11
9 90.4% Sardinian + 9.6% Jordanian @ 5.17
10 90.5% Sardinian + 9.5% Bedouin @ 5.18
11 87.9% Sardinian + 12.1% Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.24
12 86.4% Sardinian + 13.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.31
13 89% Sardinian + 11% Cyprian @ 5.33
14 91.8% Sardinian + 8.2% Kurdish_Jewish @ 5.44
15 90.7% Sardinian + 9.3% Syrian @ 5.44
16 87.3% Sardinian + 12.7% Italian_Jewish @ 5.48
17 90.8% Sardinian + 9.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 5.51
18 88% Sardinian + 12% Sephardic_Jewish @ 5.54
19 92.2% Sardinian + 7.8% Iranian_Jewish @ 5.57
20 89% Sardinian + 11% Tunisian @ 5.79

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/iHhwsqd.png

[Carpatz]

I match a segment

Largest segment = 2.9 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 2.9 cM (0.081 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

298355 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.788 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Peterski]

He is from Pinarbaşı but I'm not sure which one (probably the one in in Konya Province?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%B1narba%C5%9F%C4%B1

[Neowarior]

According to the study, Anatolian Farmers were not related with Natufian/Levantine farmers but native Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers. The Hunter Gatherer population in Anatolia later shifted to the farming.

[Peterski]

According to the study, Anatolian Farmers were not related with Natufian/Levantine farmers but native Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers. The Hunter Gatherer population in Anatolia later shifted to the farming.

Yes, but when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroups the majority of Anatolian farmers were G2a, while this hunter is C1a2 so a bit atypical. But if I remember correctly there was also some C1a2 among the farmers.

[Bosniensis]

Eh that extinct Western Mediterranean people :( only Sardinians survived.

[Neowarior]

Yes, but when it comes to Y-DNA haplogroups the majority of Anatolian farmers were G2a, while this hunter is C1a2 so a bit atypical. But if I remember correctly there was also some C1a2 among the farmers.

Are Natufian farmers also belong to the same Y-DNA?

[North Sea]

Looks closest to South Euros

[Peterski]

Are Natufian farmers also belong to the same Y-DNA?

No they were mostly E1b / E1b1b.

[Hulu]

No they were mostly E1b / E1b1b.

Not Ev13 right? What do you think of these routes?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?283075-Subclade-locator-map-generator&p=5913242&viewfull=1#post5913242

[Hulu]

I match him with SNP size 50 and minimum segment 1 cm. On default I don't.

Largest segment = 3.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 197.0 cM (5.497 Pct)

141 shared segments found for this comparison.

317522 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.854 Pct SNPs are full identical

[AphroditeWorshiper]

According to the study, Anatolian Farmers were not related with Natufian/Levantine farmers but native Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers. The Hunter Gatherer population in Anatolia later shifted to the farming.

Anatolian farmers was basically native hunter gatherer + CHG + some Natufian/Levantine

[Peterski]

Eh that extinct Western Mediterranean people :( only Sardinians survived.

At least Sardinia is not being affected by the current Migrant Crisis in the West, at least I think so?

[Bosniensis]

At least Sardinia is not being affected by the current Migrant Crisis in the West, at least I think so?

They should be preserved as the oldest Southern Europeans.

[lonewolfcypriot]

This is bascically a prehistoric version of the migrant crisis.

[Crimson Winds]

He is from Pinarbaşı but I'm not sure which one (probably the one in in Konya Province?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%B1narba%C5%9F%C4%B1

Pınarbaşı is a town Kayseri where Afshars and Circassians lives today.

[Antimatter]

Not Ev13 right? What do you think of these routes?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?283075-Subclade-locator-map-generator&p=5913242&viewfull=1#post5913242

This looks quite far fetched to be honest. E-V13 likely entered through Anatolia, and an Indo-European dispersal is also proposed because E-V13 is found in almost every place Indo-Europeans settled:

The eastern advance of the Corded Ware culture eventually gave rise to the Sintashta culture in the Ural region, which is the ancestral culture of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans. E-V13's presence in this culture would explain why modern Iranians and Kurds possess E-V13, in addition to R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. E-V13 has been found as far away as central Siberia, near the Altai, a region also known to have been settled by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

But also:

An Indo-European dispersal of V13 subclades would not only explain why E-V13 is present in places like Finland, northwest Russia or Siberia, where Neolithic farmers had a negligible impact... (from Eupedia).

[Leto]

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit DY9790520

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Early_Farmers 53.06
2 Caucasian 26.78
3 Near_East 10.76
4 North_African 6.99
5 European_Hunters_Gatherers 1.7
6 Melano_Polynesian 0.41
7 Austronesian 0.24
8 South_East_Asian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( ) 16.6
2 Spaniard ( ) 18.65
3 Italian_Bergamo ( ) 18.76
4 Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( ) 19.22
5 Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) 19.23
6 Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) 19.52
7 Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) 19.73
8 Sardinian ( ) 20.72
9 Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) 20.91
10 Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) 20.95
11 Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) 21.26
12 Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) 21.34
13 Portugese ( ) 22.1
14 Spanish_Aragon_IBS ( ) 22.54
15 Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) 22.6
16 Italian_Piedmont ( ) 23.61
17 French ( ) 24.04
18 French_South ( ) 25.77
19 Italian_Tuscan ( ) 25.94
20 Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) 26.31

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74% Sardinian ( ) + 26% Christian_Arabs_Israel ( ) @ 2.52
2 74.1% Sardinian ( ) + 25.9% Lebanese_Christian ( ) @ 2.9
3 75.8% Sardinian ( ) + 24.2% Druze ( ) @ 3.31
4 71.4% Sardinian ( ) + 28.6% Cypriot ( ) @ 3.57
5 74.3% Sardinian ( ) + 25.7% Lebanese_Druze ( ) @ 3.64
6 65.4% Sardinian ( ) + 34.6% Italian_Jew ( ) @ 3.68
7 65.7% Sardinian ( ) + 34.3% Turk_Jew ( ) @ 3.87
8 66.4% Sardinian ( ) + 33.6% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 3.99
9 65.1% Sardinian ( ) + 34.9% Sicilian_East ( ) @ 4.04
10 65.3% Sardinian ( ) + 34.7% Sephardic_Jew ( ) @ 4.22
11 64.7% Sardinian ( ) + 35.3% French_Jew ( ) @ 4.26
12 73% Sardinian ( ) + 27% Samaritian ( ) @ 4.3
13 67.1% Sardinian ( ) + 32.9% Tunisian_Jew ( ) @ 4.36
14 63.9% Sardinian ( ) + 36.1% Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) @ 4.38
15 68.4% Sardinian ( ) + 31.6% Greek_Phokaia ( ) @ 4.43
16 69.4% Sardinian ( ) + 30.6% Greek_Islands ( ) @ 4.45
17 73% Sardinian ( ) + 27% Lebanese_Muslim ( ) @ 4.51
18 68.5% Sardinian ( ) + 31.5% Italian_South ( ) @ 4.54
19 68.7% Sardinian ( ) + 31.3% Cretan ( ) @ 4.56
20 67.6% Sardinian ( ) + 32.4% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 4.57

[Peterski]

He is not exactly like Sardinians because Sardinians have extra WHG ancestry, and were also affected by genetic drift.

[Hulu]

This looks quite far fetched to be honest. E-V13 likely entered through Anatolia, and an Indo-European dispersal is also proposed because E-V13 is found in almost every place Indo-Europeans settled:

The eastern advance of the Corded Ware culture eventually gave rise to the Sintashta culture in the Ural region, which is the ancestral culture of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans. E-V13's presence in this culture would explain why modern Iranians and Kurds possess E-V13, in addition to R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. E-V13 has been found as far away as central Siberia, near the Altai, a region also known to have been settled by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

But also:

An Indo-European dispersal of V13 subclades would not only explain why E-V13 is present in places like Finland, northwest Russia or Siberia, where Neolithic farmers had a negligible impact... (from Eupedia).

It's not a hypothesis, it's the locations with the earliest clades known.

[North Sea]

I match him with SNP size 50 and minimum segment 1 cm. On default I don't.

Largest segment = 3.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 197.0 cM (5.497 Pct)

141 shared segments found for this comparison.

317522 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.854 Pct SNPs are full identical

I got something similar


Largest segment = 2.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 149.8 cM (4.181 Pct)

113 shared segments found for this comparison.

306571 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.037 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Largest segment = 8.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 8.2 cM (0.229 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.2

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

299978 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.717 Pct SNPs are full identical

Using my gf kit. I don't share any segment with this sample.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

^

Nevermind, I am on the phone and messed up the kit numbers and compared segments between my gf kit and mine, lol. We both don't share any segments with the Anatolian sample.

[North Sea]

Largest segment = 8.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 8.2 cM (0.229 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.2

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

299978 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.717 Pct SNPs are full identical

Using my gf kit. I don't share any segment with this sample.

Did you try adding snp to 50 and cm size to 1 ?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Did you try adding snp to 50 and cm size to 1 ?

I didn't change any of the default values but I can try.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Did you try adding snp to 50 and cm size to 1 ?

My gf:

Largest segment = 2.9 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 133.5 cM (3.724 Pct)

103 shared segments found for this comparison.

447338 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.723 Pct SNPs are full identical

Me:

Largest segment = 3.1 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 151.6 cM (4.231 Pct)

105 shared segments found for this comparison.

195888 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.965 Pct SNPs are full identical

My dad:

Largest segment = 2.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 132.9 cM (3.708 Pct)

102 shared segments found for this comparison.

447401 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.998 Pct SNPs are full identical

[North Sea]

I didn't change any of the default values but I can try.

Yeah, if I don't change it I don't match any of these samples. Not sure how legit that is. I think they are supposed to be changed or something since they are ancient samples , not sure.

[MagnusDark]

Me:




MLargest segment = 4.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 167.7 cM (4.680 Pct)

121 shared segments found for this comparison.

317771 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.183 Pct SNPs are full identicalother:

Largest segment = 2.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 148.4 cM (4.141 Pct)

108 shared segments found for this comparison.

262277 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.497 Pct SNPs are full identical

Father:

Largest segment = 5.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 156.5 cM (4.368 Pct)

110 shared segments found for this comparison.

313462 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.045 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Imperator Biff]

I expect the dzudzuana samples to be rich in haplogroup K when they are released.

[dududud]

Very good.

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4MQLbVj8LY

[dududud]

So before their slight admixture located at 10/20% old "natufian levant", they were identical to Sardinia? It would be interesting to get a gedmatch kit before they have this slight admixture...

[Calpurnius]

So before their slight admixture located at 10/20% old "natufian levant", they were identical to Sardinia? It would be interesting to get a gedmatch kit before they have this slight admixture...
Well no, using Sardinians who have excess WHG makes the calculator add some southern source in order to make up for it, obviously one can't put the cart before the horse and using moderns to model ancients is always a bad idea. It's Neolithic Anatolians that compared to Pinarbasi HG had ~10% of ancestry from Iran/CHG/Natufians, some more some less.
https://i.imgur.com/TeIEbbM.png

[Annihilus]

Largest segment = 4.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 156.8 cM (4.376 Pct)

114 shared segments found for this comparison.

373819 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.877 Pct SNPs are full identical

[dududud]

Well no, using Sardinians who have excess WHG makes the calculator add some southern source in order to make up for it, obviously one can't put the cart before the horse and using moderns to model ancients is always a bad idea. It's Neolithic Anatolians that compared to Pinarbasi HG had ~10% of ancestry from Iran/CHG/Natufians, some more some less.
https://i.imgur.com/TeIEbbM.png

do you have the kit of anatolia barcin N:I0724?

But do you supposed they would identical (on a pca) to sardinians without the 10/20% levant?

[Calpurnius]

do you have the kit of anatolia barcin N:I0724?

But do you supposed they would identical (on a pca) to sardinians without the 10/20% levant?
No sorry.
But no, Sardinians have ~10% WHG and also on a finer scale some non trivial input from Italy(my best G25 attempts give something like Umbrians) which pulls them towards modern south Euros a lilttle.
Here, Pinarbasi_HG is more "northern" than Barcin_N likely because of this ~10% input from the near east in the latter. So it plots close to LBK farmers which seem to have little to none of these extra inputs. Sardinians are more like early neolithic Iberian farmers.
https://i.imgur.com/qhYDDHP.png

[vbnetkhio]

So before their slight admixture located at 10/20% old "natufian levant", they were identical to Sardinia? It would be interesting to get a gedmatch kit before they have this slight admixture...

there was only Natufian and WHG. everything else was a mix of these 2. Anatolians were probably pure WHGs before this Natufian admixture arrived.

[Calpurnius]

there was only Natufian and WHG. everything else was a mix of these 2. Anatolians were probably pure WHGs before this Natufian admixture arrived.
Seems unlikely, early farmers and certainly also Pinarbasi_HG form a clade with ~26000 years old Dzudzuana foragers from the Caucasus, it's Natufians who are something like Dzudzuana/Pinarbasi_HG + Iberomaurusians, which makes sense as Natufians had Y-DNA E1b like Iberomaurusians. Perhaps what's true is that well in the paleolithic a proto-WHG population moved from Europe into Anatolia and mixed with basal Eurasians to form this Anatolian/Dzudzuana type of ancestry, while those proto-WHG that remained in Europe eventually gave birth to WHG proper and expanded into Europe during the mesolithic.

[Adamastor]

EV-13 as Indo-European yDNA. :pound:

The level of coping among Balkanites is immense. It's a subclade of the E1b family. They need to accept that their most ancient male ancestors looked like modern blacks.

[vbnetkhio]

Seems unlikely, early farmers and certainly also Pinarbasi_HG form a clade with ~26000 years old Dzudzuana foragers from the Caucasus, it's Natufians who are something like Dzudzuana/Pinarbasi_HG + Iberomaurusians, which makes sense as Natufians had Y-DNA E1b like Iberomaurusians. Perhaps what's true is that well in the paleolithic a proto-WHG population moved from Europe into Anatolia and mixed with basal Eurasians to form this Anatolian/Dzudzuana type of ancestry, while those proto-WHG that remained in Europe eventually gave birth to WHG proper and expanded into Europe during the mesolithic.

the ENF cluster is related to Dzudzuana, but Pinarbasi was already ENF + WHG. i thought the pure ENF's were Natufians.

but if Natufians really already had WHG influence, than the origin of the ENF cluster is somewhere else, further south or east, or in the Levant, but in an earlier period than the Natufian?

this is what Davidski says



Early Neolithic Farmer (ENF): I'd say that this is the component of the earliest Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent.

Some of you might be wondering why this test doesn't offer an Early European Farmer (EEF) cluster. But the answer to that should be obvious by now. EEF is not a stable ancestral component. It's actually a composite of at least two ancient components, including the so called Basal Eurasian and WHG-UHG. If it really was a genuine ancestral component, like ANE, then I'm pretty sure I'd be able catch it with ADMIXTURE. But I can't.

[Kamal900]

Which proves that modern day Turds have nothing to do much with the ancient peoples of Anatolia.

[Calpurnius]

the ENF cluster is related to Dzudzuana, but Pinarbasi was already ENF + WHG. i thought the pure ENF's were Natufians.

but if Natufians really already had WHG influence, than the origin of the ENF cluster is somewhere else, further south or east, or in the Levant, but in an earlier period than the Natufian?

this is what Davidski says

ENF hasn't been used in a while, at least not since 2017 when it was discovered that there were actually multiple populations that learned/discovered farming, and Pinarbasi is probably not extra WHG compared to Dzudzuana; if anything, the opposite may be true, Dzudzuana is technically closer to paleo Euros compared to Barcin according to the Fst distances in the paper. That Davidisnki quote seems very old, where is it from? though WHG-UHG pretty much corresponds to what in the Dzudzuana paper is referred as "Common west Eurasian" or CWE. Basically CWE+basal = Pinarbasi/Dzudzuana, CWE then drifts into WHG proper. Natufian is Dzudzuana+Iberomaurusian, Levant neolithic is Dzudzuana+Natufian.
Keep in mind that as of now, both Dzudzuana and Pinarbasi are older than Natufians.

[tipirneni]

at 100/1cM
Largest segment = 1.6 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 5.7 cM (0.158 Pct)

at 50/.5
Largest segment = 3.3 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 209.4 cM (5.843 Pct)

[vbnetkhio]

ENF hasn't been used in a while, at least not since 2017 when it was discovered that there were actually multiple populations that learned/discovered farming, and Pinarbasi is probably not extra WHG compared to Dzudzuana; if anything, the opposite may be true, Dzudzuana is technically closer to paleo Euros compared to Barcin according to the Fst distances in the paper. That Davidisnki quote seems very old, where is it from? though WHG-UHG pretty much corresponds to what in the Dzudzuana paper is referred as "Common west Eurasian" or CWE. Basically CWE+basal = Pinarbasi/Dzudzuana, CWE then drifts into WHG proper. Natufian is Dzudzuana+Iberomaurusian, Levant neolithic is Dzudzuana+Natufian.
Keep in mind that as of now, both Dzudzuana and Pinarbasi are older than Natufians.

it's from here http://bga101.blogspot.com/2014/09/eurogenes-ane-k7.html

i thought the "UHG" refers to the cluster in Eastern Europe which was similar to WHG, which ANE mixed with and formed EHG? and it's unknown since we have no samples of them yet

Dzudzuana had basal influence? is it possible that in fact Basal and Dzudzuana split from a common lineage? i though Dzudzuana were basically pure descendants of first Homo Sapiens which settled in the Caucasus.

[Impaler]

At 100/1cM
Largest segment = 3.1 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.0 cM (0.195 Pct)

At 50/.5
Largest segment = 3.1 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 256.3 cM (7.150 Pct)

[Calpurnius]

it's from here http://bga101.blogspot.com/2014/09/eurogenes-ane-k7.html

i thought the "UHG" refers to the cluster in Eastern Europe which was similar to WHG, which ANE mixed with and formed EHG? and it's unknown since we have no samples of them yet

Dzudzuana had basal influence? is it possible that in fact Basal and Dzudzuana split from a common lineage? i though Dzudzuana were basically pure descendants of first Homo Sapiens which settled in the Caucasus.
Yeah it's quite old, 2014, though impressively enough the WHG-UHG concept turned out to be pretty accurate. UHG IIRC referred to "unknown hunter gatherer" and it was basically the component of ENF which seemed to resemble WHG so to speak. It's basically the same as "Villabruna-related" in the Basal-rich k7 test that Davidinski created. Consider that the oldest WHG we have, Villabruna, is only 14k years old, and it's different in its own way from previous paleolithic European HGs. I think whatever type of WHG mixed to form EHG may have been already closer to WHG proper. In any case yeah, that seems one of the main takes from the Dzudzuana paper, the presence of basal ancestry twice as early as previously thought in the near east.
Here is the main model of that paper. Notice the CWE node, aka WHG-UHG, going to Dzudzuana.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHMpXStWoAAsiKH.jpg

[dududud]

Yeah it's quite old, 2014, though impressively enough the WHG-UHG concept turned out to be pretty accurate. UHG IIRC referred to "unknown hunter gatherer" and it was basically the component of ENF which seemed to resemble WHG so to speak. It's basically the same as "Villabruna-related" in the Basal-rich k7 test that Davidinski created. Consider that the oldest WHG we have, Villabruna, is only 14k years old, and it's different in its own way from previous paleolithic European HGs. I think whatever type of WHG mixed to form EHG may have been already closer to WHG proper. In any case yeah, that seems one of the main takes from the Dzudzuana paper, the presence of basal ancestry twice as early as previously thought in the near east.
Here is the main model of that paper. Notice the CWE node, aka WHG-UHG, going to Dzudzuana.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHMpXStWoAAsiKH.jpg

Thanks. This Anatolian hunter gather had already WHG?

[happycow]

No sorry.
But no, Sardinians have ~10% WHG and also on a finer scale some non trivial input from Italy(my best G25 attempts give something like Umbrians) which pulls them towards modern south Euros a lilttle.
Here, Pinarbasi_HG is more "northern" than Barcin_N likely because of this ~10% input from the near east in the latter. So it plots close to LBK farmers which seem to have little to none of these extra inputs. Sardinians are more like early neolithic Iberian farmers.
https://i.imgur.com/qhYDDHP.png

Interesting that Levant_PPNB is so far from Levant Canaanite MBA, Lebanese Christian etc. Why is that? I was looking at Natufian gedmatch results and it seems like they had Sardinian admixture? And no west asian

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7625-Gedmatch-results-of-a-Natufian

[Bornoz]

He is from Pinarbaşı but I'm not sure which one (probably the one in in Konya Province?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%B1narba%C5%9F%C4%B1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM17Exc6BUU

[dududud]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbgwtfd8kWA&feature=youtu.be

[Calpurnius]

Thanks. This Anatolian hunter gather had already WHG?
If what the Dzudzuana paper found out, that is, that Dzudzuana and later Anatolian farmers form a clade, that is, descend essentially from a common population, I'm fairly sure the same will be true for the Pinarbasi HG, which wasn't included in the Dzudzuana study for it basically came out right around the same period the Pinarbasi HG paper came out. So Pinarbasi HG has something WHG-like, but I guess not directly from mesolithic WHG but from the recent paleolithic ancestor population of WHG, which I guess waited out the last glacial maximum in some south-east European refuge, which to me seems the ideal place both to explain the WHG affinity emerging in these farmers but also the WHG part in eastern hunter gatherers. Mind you I think it's possible some "real" WHG may have also been present from a more recent period.
The thing is, there's a big hole in the ancient DNA record in the Balkans, there are basically no samples after the very old Oase1 until well in the mesolithic. The closest thing would be Ostuni1 from 25kBC in southern Italy, and indeed if I'm not mistaken this Gravettian population is aside from WHG proper one of the closest to the farmer/dzudzuana populations. If they get some samples from the area during the last glacial maximum I think they may find this proto-WHG ancestor.

[Calpurnius]

Interesting that Levant_PPNB is so far from Levant Canaanite MBA, Lebanese Christian etc. Why is that? I was looking at Natufian gedmatch results and it seems like they had Sardinian admixture? And no west asian

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7625-Gedmatch-results-of-a-Natufian
You said it basically, all later levantine populations have increased ancestry from the east, from Iran especially and also CHG.
https://i.imgur.com/kKpMKup.png

[Daos777]

This looks quite far fetched to be honest. E-V13 likely entered through Anatolia, and an Indo-European dispersal is also proposed because E-V13 is found in almost every place Indo-Europeans settled:

The eastern advance of the Corded Ware culture eventually gave rise to the Sintashta culture in the Ural region, which is the ancestral culture of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans. E-V13's presence in this culture would explain why modern Iranians and Kurds possess E-V13, in addition to R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. E-V13 has been found as far away as central Siberia, near the Altai, a region also known to have been settled by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

But also:

An Indo-European dispersal of V13 subclades would not only explain why E-V13 is present in places like Finland, northwest Russia or Siberia, where Neolithic farmers had a negligible impact... (from Eupedia).

E-V13 entered Europe directly from North Africa during the Mesolithic. Until there are any ancient Levantine samples of E-V13 this theory can’t be disproven. E-M78 was found only in Africa and Europe. Not one sample in the Levant or Anatolia.

[Daos777]

EV-13 as Indo-European yDNA. :pound:

The level of coping among Balkanites is immense. It's a subclade of the E1b family. They need to accept that their most ancient male ancestors looked like modern blacks.

LOL WHAT? This a reconstruction of Afalou man. His people, Iberomaurusians, are earliest E-M78 with a direct parent to E-V13 ever found and most of them are ~75 caucasoid with some SSA like admixture. They had European Cro-Magnon mtDNA. Meaning they for sure had contact with Europe.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191106/06eab2656fb13c7af16e2590eaabed87.plisthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191106/4d6434b672c95ec442036f2888773c2b.plist


He look black to you??

The level of Larping on this forum and ignoring facts is outstanding. E? must be nigga.

[Calpurnius]

E-V13 entered Europe directly from North Africa during the Mesolithic. Until there are any ancient Levantine samples of E-V13 this theory can’t be disproven. E-M78 was found only in Africa and Europe. Not one sample in the Levant or Anatolia.
I'm pretty sure one of those PPNB samples from the Levant was positive for E-M78, sample I1710. V13 is too young for the mesolithic. Remember that E-L618, which is just upstream of V13, was found in neolithic Balkans, from Cardial pottery culture. This makes sense to me as a vector for later E-V13.

[Daos777]

I'm pretty sure one of those PPNB samples from the Levant was positive for E-M78, sample I1710. V13 is too young for the mesolithic. Remember that E-L618, which is just upstream of V13, was found in neolithic Balkans, from Cardial pottery culture. This makes sense to me as a vector for later E-V13.

Can you post this sample so I don’t have to look for it? Where can I download his full genome? Because I’ve been looking for a Levantine E-M78 forever.

Anyways, what I’m saying is the ancestors of E-V13 entered southern Europe directly from Africa during the Mesolithic and it can be even earlier.


“Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13.”

The only real parent lineage to E-V13 is found here. Nowhere else to my knowledge.


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[Calpurnius]

Can you post this sample so I don’t have to look for it? Where can I download his full genome? Because I’ve been looking for a Levantine E-M78 forever.

Anyways, what I’m saying is the ancestors of E-V13 entered southern Europe directly from Africa during the Mesolithic and it can be even earlier.


“Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13.”

The only real parent lineage to E-V13 is found here. Nowhere else to my knowledge.


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Here on ENA: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS1211936
I'm basing myself on the calls done by good old Genetiker here, maybe I could try doing the calls myself: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/

Consider that if Natufians per the most recent data are to a good degree partly Iberomaurusian, the most likely route, also taking into account archeology, is Iberomaurusian -> mesolithic Levant -> pre pottery neolithic -> southeast Europe cardial pottery

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Can you post this sample so I don’t have to look for it? Where can I download his full genome? Because I’ve been looking for a Levantine E-M78 forever.

Anyways, what I’m saying is the ancestors of E-V13 entered southern Europe directly from Africa during the Mesolithic and it can be even earlier.


“Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13.”

The only real parent lineage to E-V13 is found here. Nowhere else to my knowledge.


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And how the fuck did that guy's lineage end up in the Balkans and spreading even to Uzbekhistan?

[Daos777]

And how the fuck did that guy's lineage end up in the Balkans and spreading even to Uzbekhistan?

Indo-European assimilation.

[Calpurnius]

I've done the calls myself with Yleaf, I1710 unfortunately seems like a pretty poor quality sample. He's quite certainly at least E-M35, and has two calls for E1b1b1a, not sure how Genetiker analysed the data and got some calls for E1b1b1a1 too.
haplogroup marker_name state
1 A0-T L1143 D
2 A0-T L1085 D
3 A0-T L1105 D
4 B2b1a1c2a~ Z37906 D
5 BT Z17371 D
6 BT M9075 D
7 BT M9083 D
8 BT M9112 D
9 BT M9117 D
10 BT M9128 D
11 BT M9195 D
12 BT M9213 D
13 BT M9218 D
14 BT M9282 D
15 BT M9285 D
16 BT M9286 D
17 BT M9290 D
18 BT M9293 D
19 BT M9296 D
20 BT M9303 D
21 BT M9315 D
22 BT M9319 D
23 BT Z40396 D
24 BT M9370 D
25 BT Z12129 D
26 BT V202 D
27 BT M8955 D
28 BT Y8310 D
29 BT M8988 D
30 BT M8994 D
31 BT M8997 D
32 BT M9011 D
33 C2 Z1459 D
34 CT CTS4368 D
35 CT M5692 D
36 CT CTS7257 D
37 CT CTS9458 D
38 CT M5778 D
39 CT Z40571 D
40 CT CTS1181 D
41 CT Z17706 D
42 DE CTS9461 D
43 DE CTS10714 D
44 DE PF1431 D
45 E CTS6755 D
46 E M5545 D
47 E M5382 D
48 E PF1567 D
49 E1 CTS9753 D
50 E1b1~ CTS1867 D
51 E1b1~ M5404 D
52 E1b1~ M5415 D
53 E1b1a1a1a1c1a1a3d5b~ Z37457 D
54 E1b1a1a1a2a1a3a1~ M4090 D
55 E1b1b CTS8033 D
56 E1b1b1 M5041 D
57 E1b1b1~ CTS2449 D
58 E1b1b1~ CTS2727 D
59 E1b1b1~ CTS5438 D
60 E1b1b1~ CTS10343 D
61 E1b1b1~ CTS10365 D
62 E1b1b1~ M5288 D
63 E1b1b1~ M5290 D
64 E1b1b1~ M5115 D
65 E1b1b1a CTS2661 D
66 E1b1b1a PF2178 D
67 E2 CTS20 D
68 G2a2b2a1a1b Z6379 D
69 G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a1a3b~ Z44118 D
70 L M2454 D
71 L1a2 M5710 D
72 M1~ Z31064 D
73 N1a1a1a1a2a1c~ Y13138 D
74 R1b1a1a2 L777 D
75 R1b1a1a2 PF6436 D

[Daos777]

I've done the calls myself with Yleaf, I1710 unfortunately seems like a pretty poor quality sample. He's quite certainly at least E-M35, and has two calls for E1b1b1a, not sure how Genetiker analysed the data and got some calls for E1b1b1a1 too.
haplogroup marker_name state
1 A0-T L1143 D
2 A0-T L1085 D
3 A0-T L1105 D
4 B2b1a1c2a~ Z37906 D
5 BT Z17371 D
6 BT M9075 D
7 BT M9083 D
8 BT M9112 D
9 BT M9117 D
10 BT M9128 D
11 BT M9195 D
12 BT M9213 D
13 BT M9218 D
14 BT M9282 D
15 BT M9285 D
16 BT M9286 D
17 BT M9290 D
18 BT M9293 D
19 BT M9296 D
20 BT M9303 D
21 BT M9315 D
22 BT M9319 D
23 BT Z40396 D
24 BT M9370 D
25 BT Z12129 D
26 BT V202 D
27 BT M8955 D
28 BT Y8310 D
29 BT M8988 D
30 BT M8994 D
31 BT M8997 D
32 BT M9011 D
33 C2 Z1459 D
34 CT CTS4368 D
35 CT M5692 D
36 CT CTS7257 D
37 CT CTS9458 D
38 CT M5778 D
39 CT Z40571 D
40 CT CTS1181 D
41 CT Z17706 D
42 DE CTS9461 D
43 DE CTS10714 D
44 DE PF1431 D
45 E CTS6755 D
46 E M5545 D
47 E M5382 D
48 E PF1567 D
49 E1 CTS9753 D
50 E1b1~ CTS1867 D
51 E1b1~ M5404 D
52 E1b1~ M5415 D
53 E1b1a1a1a1c1a1a3d5b~ Z37457 D
54 E1b1a1a1a2a1a3a1~ M4090 D
55 E1b1b CTS8033 D
56 E1b1b1 M5041 D
57 E1b1b1~ CTS2449 D
58 E1b1b1~ CTS2727 D
59 E1b1b1~ CTS5438 D
60 E1b1b1~ CTS10343 D
61 E1b1b1~ CTS10365 D
62 E1b1b1~ M5288 D
63 E1b1b1~ M5290 D
64 E1b1b1~ M5115 D
65 E1b1b1a CTS2661 D
66 E1b1b1a PF2178 D
67 E2 CTS20 D
68 G2a2b2a1a1b Z6379 D
69 G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a1a3b~ Z44118 D
70 L M2454 D
71 L1a2 M5710 D
72 M1~ Z31064 D
73 N1a1a1a1a2a1c~ Y13138 D
74 R1b1a1a2 L777 D
75 R1b1a1a2 PF6436 D


He is most likely E-Z827 or a downstream subclade like the rest of Levantines.(Natufian subclade) This is why I don’t believe E-V13 came from Mesolithic Levant or Levant in general because it would have to be downstream descendant of E-Z827 and not directly from M-78. If that makes sense.

[Gaditanian]

^

Nevermind, I am on the phone and messed up the kit numbers and compared segments between my gf kit and mine, lol. We both don't share any segments with the Anatolian sample.

Then your gf & you are related 7 generations ago with a common ancestor? :eek:

[Calpurnius]

He is most likely E-Z827 or a downstream subclade like the rest of Levantines.(Natufian subclade) This is why I don’t believe E-V13 came from Mesolithic Levant or Levant in general because it would have to be downstream descendant of E-Z827 and not directly from M-78. If that makes sense.
The two calls for E1b1b1a, keeping in mind the quality of the sample is poor, do point to the possibility of M78 in the Levant though. Keep in mind that the few Iberomaurusian samples available and early Natufian ones are almost from the same period, around 13kBC, the Iberomaurusian-like population that mixed into the Levant may have had both M78 and Z827, perhaps lived somewhere between Morocco and the Levant in the paleolithic.

[Daos777]

The two calls for E1b1b1a, keeping in mind the quality of the sample is poor, do point to the possibility of M78 in the Levant though. Keep in mind that the few Iberomaurusian samples available and early Natufian ones are almost from the same period, around 13kBC, the Iberomaurusian-like population that mixed into the Levant may have had both M78 and Z827, perhaps lived somewhere between Morocco and the Levant in the paleolithic.

Yeah they may have but so far no proof of it.

“According to ancient DNA analyses conducted by Lazaridis et al. (2016) on Natufian skeletal remains from present-day northern Israel, the Natufians carried the Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroups E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a,E1b1b1b2b) (2/5; 40%), CT (2/5; 40%), and E1b1(xE1b1a1,E1b1b1b1) (1/5; 20%).”

Personally I’m going to lean towards the directly out of North Africa theory until a legit M-78 parent clade to European E-V13 is found in the Levant.




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[InfamousAngel99]

I have two small matching segments, but they’re so small they probably don’t mean much.

Very interesting nonetheless!

[Imperator Biff]

Interesting that Levant_PPNB is so far from Levant Canaanite MBA, Lebanese Christian etc. Why is that? I was looking at Natufian gedmatch results and it seems like they had Sardinian admixture? And no west asian

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7625-Gedmatch-results-of-a-Natufian

(((BA Levantines))) derived most of their ancestry from Halaf-Ubaid people from Mesopotamia.
Similar to those hajji firuz Chl samples. A two way admixture of ANF/Iran_N. They then assimilated the natufian heavy PPNC levantines and replaced their E1b lines with typical Semitic haplogroups like J1/J2 etc

[Arch Hades]

This is bascically a prehistoric version of the migrant crisis.

Let's hope not. These guys conquered 2/3rds of Europe and their genes in today's Europeans ranges from 25-85%. I hope the European in 500 years will not be 25-85% Sub-SaharanNegroNorthAfrican mongrel.

Not to mention, they are much more genetically similar to modern Europeans than modern Pakistani/Arabian/North African, much less Sub-Saharan populations are today. Lastly these people were technologically superior to the natives of Europe at the time while it's the vice versa with the current migrants.

[happycow]

(((BA Levantines))) derived most of their ancestry from Halaf-Ubaid people from Mesopotamia.
Similar to those hajji firuz Chl samples. A two way admixture of ANF/Iran_N. They then assimilated the natufian heavy PPNC levantines and replaced their E1b lines with typical Semitic haplogroups like J1/J2 etc

I see. Interesting, thank you. :)

[Annihilus]

Which proves that modern day Turds have nothing to do much with the ancient peoples of Anatolia.


Largest segment = 4.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 156.8 cM (4.376 Pct)

114 shared segments found for this comparison.

373819 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.877 Pct SNPs are full identical

idiot

[Daos777]

This looks quite far fetched to be honest. E-V13 likely entered through Anatolia, and an Indo-European dispersal is also proposed because E-V13 is found in almost every place Indo-Europeans settled:

The eastern advance of the Corded Ware culture eventually gave rise to the Sintashta culture in the Ural region, which is the ancestral culture of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans. E-V13's presence in this culture would explain why modern Iranians and Kurds possess E-V13, in addition to R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. E-V13 has been found as far away as central Siberia, near the Altai, a region also known to have been settled by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

But also:

An Indo-European dispersal of V13 subclades would not only explain why E-V13 is present in places like Finland, northwest Russia or Siberia, where Neolithic farmers had a negligible impact... (from Eupedia).

No legitimate E-M78 samples were ever found in Anatolia or Levant.