Y-dna in southern Serbia(Serbs only)

[Nikša]

Sample size: 386 tested Serbs from Raška, Rasina, Toplica, Jablanica, Vranjsko Pomoravlje, Kosovo and Metohija
Results are from Serbian dna project.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I2 - 41,2%
E - 18,7%
R1a - 16,3%
J2 - 7,8%
R1b - 5,4%
G - 4,9%
I1 - 3,9%
J1+N+Q+L - 1,8%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something which surprised me here is so high % of I2 in southern Serbia.

[HungryLion]

it should not surprise you, it's definitely a proto Serbian branch...

[Pribislav]

Different than only Torlakian region.

In Torlakian region I2a is about 30%, and R1b is over 10%.

[Thracian]

Is E higher than R1a in general (including Rebuplika Srpska)?

[Pribislav]

Is E higher than R1a in general (including Rebuplika Srpska)?

Y dna of Serbs from Serbia (sampe 785)
https://i.imgur.com/TmnQx4J.png


Y dna of Bosnian Serbs (sample 380)
https://i.imgur.com/11TNVjt.jpg

[Nikša]

Different than only Torlakian region.

In Torlakian region I2a is about 30%, and R1b is over 10%.

It is the case for now, but we should keep in mind that sample for that region is very small.

[CommonSense]

Jesi li odradio autosomalni test? Pitam jer imamo baš malo testiranih poreklom iz Brda, CG i Stare Hercegovine.

[Pribislav]

It is the case for now, but we should keep in mind that sample for that region is very small.

Yes, I know.

In Torlakian region E1b has a peak in Serbia from what I know, with about 20%.

It will be interesting to see on higher sample are Torlakians closer to Serbs or Bulgarians in y dna.

[Nikša]

Jesi li odradio autosomalni test? Pitam jer imamo baš malo testiranih poreklom iz Brda, CG i Stare Hercegovine.

Zasad znam samo haplogrupu.

[Nikša]

Yes, I know.

In Torlakian region E1b has a peak in Serbia from what I know, with about 20%.

It will be interesting to see on higher sample are Torlakians closer to Serbs or Bulgarians in y dna.

For now R1a is weaker in Torlakians than in Bulgarians and i expect that it will be changed with larger sample.

[Pribislav]

For now R1a is weaker in Torlakians than in Bulgarians and i expect that it will be changed with larger sample.

I know, Torlakians have less R1a, more I2a , less E1b and almost same R1b as Bulgarians.

I2a+R1a among Torlakians is quite closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian average for now.

[Skerdilaid]

Good part of that R1b looks like is BY611>Z2705.

[Ayetooey]

Much more I2a than expected.

[Pubiczar]

It seems that the Serbian Torlaks are the same as our Torlaks, or somewhere on the level with the Northern half of North Macedonia.
Let's remind ourselves what Coon has said about the Serbs:

"The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians; 45 per cent of eyes are pure brown (Martin #2-4), as against 20 per cent which are pure or nearly pure light. Over 55 per cent have black or dark brown hair, while light browns and blonds come to less than 10 per cent. The beards are, of course, often lighter than the head hair. The skin is brunet-white or light-brown in at least a third of the total. It is unlikely that the prevalence of brunet pigmentation among the Serbs came from a Slavic source, and as we shall presently see, the high incidence of dark eyes can hardly be called Dinaric. By elimination we must suppose that the Serbs, in their sojourn in northern Macedonia. accumulated a strong brunet tendency."

I guess much of I2 is from the I-Z17855 branch which is the dominant one in North Macedonia and Bulgaria, couple with high prevalence of E-V13 and R1b.

[Pribislav]

It seems that the Serbian Torlaks are the same as our Torlaks, or somewhere on the level with the Northern half of North Macedonia.
Let's remind ourselves what Coon has said about the Serbs:

"The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians; 45 per cent of eyes are pure brown (Martin #2-4), as against 20 per cent which are pure or nearly pure light. Over 55 per cent have black or dark brown hair, while light browns and blonds come to less than 10 per cent. The beards are, of course, often lighter than the head hair. The skin is brunet-white or light-brown in at least a third of the total. It is unlikely that the prevalence of brunet pigmentation among the Serbs came from a Slavic source, and as we shall presently see, the high incidence of dark eyes can hardly be called Dinaric. By elimination we must suppose that the Serbs, in their sojourn in northern Macedonia. accumulated a strong brunet tendency."

I guess much of I2 is from the I-Z17855 branch which is the dominant one in North Macedonia and Bulgaria, couple with high prevalence of E-V13 and R1b.

What a fuck Coon's view of Montenegrins have to do with y dna of southern Serbia?

[Pubiczar]

What a fuck Coon's view of Montenegrins have to do with y dna of southern Serbia?

Read again, it's about the Serbs not about the Monteniggers.
Just my 2 cents, that those from Vranje, Nis, Pirot, are closer to Bulgarians and Macedonian than the Serbs.

[Pribislav]

Read again, it's about the Serbs not about the Monteniggers.
Just my 2 cents, that those from Vranje, Nis, Pirot, are closer to Bulgarians and Macedonian than the Serbs.

Coon's reseach for Serbs is mostly based on Montenegrins. In Coon's time Montenegrins were Serbs, today most of them are not Serbs.

Again: what Coon have to do with y dna of southern Serbia?

Among Serbian Torlaks the strongest haplogroup is I2-PH908 as among all other Serbs.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Coon's reseach for Serbs is mostly based on Montenegrins. In Coon's time Montenegrins were Serbs, today most of them are not Serbs.

Again: what Coon have to do with y dna of southern Serbia?

Among Serbian Torlaks the strongest haplogroup is I2-PH908 as among all other Serbs.

No it isn't. This is description of Serbian Serbs he gave. Montenegrins were described as lighter in comparison.

[Pubiczar]

Coon's reseach for Serbs is mostly based on Montenegrins. In Coon's time Montenegrins were Serbs, today most of them are not Serbs.

Again: what Coon have to do with y dna of southern Serbia?

Among Serbian Torlaks the strongest haplogroup is I2-PH908 as among all other Serbs.

Read again, it says in their sojourn in northern Macedonia, not in Montenegro or Albania.
Any statistics about I2 in those regions, how much is Z17855, PH908?

[Pribislav]

No it isn't. This is description of Serbian Serbs he gave. Montenegrins were described as lighter in comparison.

This is one of the reasons why I concider Coon's reseachs for bullshit.

Montenegrins in reality are darker than other Serbs. Only total idiot can claim opposite.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

This is one of the reasons why I concider Coon's reseachs for bullshit.

Montenegrins in reality are darker than other Serbs. Only total idiot can claim opposite.

I doubt they are any darker than Southern Serbs, only difference is they are much taller in comparison.

[Pribislav]

Read again, it says in their sojourn in northern Macedonia, not in Montenegro or Albania.
Any statistics about I2 in those regions, how much is Z17855, PH908?

In every Serbian region PH908 is the strongest of I2a1b.

Maybe Nikša have exact data of relations between branches of I2a1b in Southern Serbia.

Here is y dna of native Kosovo Serbs (sample is only 55, but still useful). Total I2a1b2a1 is 40% (PH908 is 29%, CTS10228 is 11%).
https://i.imgur.com/oJVk4AN.png

[Pubiczar]

In every Serbian region PH908 is the strongest of I2a1b.

Maybe Nikša have exact data of relations between branches of I2a1b in Southern Serbia.

Here is y dna of native Kosovo Serbs (sample is only 55, but still useful). Total I2a1b2a1 is 40% (PH908 is 29%, CTS10228 is 11%).
https://i.imgur.com/oJVk4AN.png

That's fine but I am not really interested in Kosovo as it was very early settled with Serbs:

https://i.postimg.cc/bwMvYBHf/Migration-of-Serbs.png (https://postimages.org/)nearest barclays bank to my location (https://banks-nearme.com/barclays-bank-near-me)

I am more interested in Vranje, Nish, Pirot, basically the South-East of Serbia.

[Pribislav]

Hrvoje's clade R1b-U106 is 2% among Kosovo Serbs, and I2-M223 is 13%. Those are descendants of Saxon miners.
https://i.imgur.com/oJVk4AN.png

[Pubiczar]

Hrvoje's clade R1b-U106 is 2% among Kosovo Serbs, and I2-M223 is 13%. Those are descendants of Saxon miners.
https://i.imgur.com/oJVk4AN.png

There is an increased level of North Sea component in South Serbia and along the Vardar river Valley in North Macedonia, all the way to the south of Central Macedonia in Greece.
It's visible in my results and other results of Macedonians like this one:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?283338-Gedmatch-results-of-a-man-from-Kavadarci-North-Macedonia

https://i.postimg.cc/vHMRfFtt/germanic-y-dna-combined-haplogroups-by-arminius1871-d8fztsi-pre.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Many companies give me small percent of Scandinavian, from FTDNA 2 % to GenePlaza 17.1 %

[Pribislav]

There is an increased level of North Sea component in South Serbia and along the Vardar river Valley in North Macedonia, all the way to the south of Central Macedonia in Greece.
It's visible in my results and other results of Macedonians like this one:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?283338-Gedmatch-results-of-a-man-from-Kavadarci-North-Macedonia

https://i.postimg.cc/vHMRfFtt/germanic-y-dna-combined-haplogroups-by-arminius1871-d8fztsi-pre.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Many companies give me small percent of Scandinavian, from FTDNA 2 % to GenePlaza 17.1 %

We are lack of autosomal results from of southern Serbs unfortunetely.

Moje ime have the highest North_Atlantic (Germanic, Celtic input?) on K13 Eurogenes of Serbs from what I have seen. Most of her ancestors are from western Serbia / eastern Bosnia.

Moje ime K13 Eurogenes

1 North_Atlantic 29.33
2 Baltic 27.8
3 East_Med 16.06
4 West_Med 14.61
5 West_Asian 9.58
6 Red_Sea 1.14
7 Oceanian 0.53
8 Northeast_African 0.51
9 Amerindian 0.44



HungryLion also has high North_Atlantic for Serbian standards. He is Krajina Serb, from Banija.

HungryLion K13 Eurogenes

1 Baltic 33.25
2 North_Atlantic 28.71
3 West_Med 15.85
4 East_Med 12.81
5 West_Asian 6.84
6 Red_Sea 1.71
7 Siberian 0.67
8 Oceanian 0.15

[North Sea]

That's fine but I am not really interested in Kosovo as it was very early settled with Serbs:

https://i.postimg.cc/bwMvYBHf/Migration-of-Serbs.png (https://postimages.org/)nearest barclays bank to my location (https://banks-nearme.com/barclays-bank-near-me)

I am more interested in Vranje, Nish, Pirot, basically the South-East of Serbia.

I don't know who has created these maps but Rasca didn't include most of modern Kosovo. It was more North.

[HungryLion]

Good part of that R1b looks like is BY611>Z2705.

I think they are Moračanin/Bogićevci . So I guess it's not BY611

[HungryLion]

I doubt they are any darker than Southern Serbs, only difference is they are much taller in comparison.

You've never been there.

[Ford]

I think they are Moračanin/Bogićevci. So I guess it's not BY611

Yeah, they're Z36.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

You've never been there.

Ofcourse I have, not only to Serbia but also to Northern Macedonia.

[Pribislav]

Ofcourse I have, not only to Serbia but also to Northern Macedonia.

You visited only Vojvodina in Serbia.

[Nikša]

Read again, it says in their sojourn in northern Macedonia, not in Montenegro or Albania.
Any statistics about I2 in those regions, how much is Z17855, PH908?

In Torlakia % of I2-PH908 is much higher than % of I2-Z17855. 26 of tested Torlakians are PH908, while only 2 of them(both in Ponišavlje region) are Z17855.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

You visited only Vojvodina in Serbia.

Many times yeah. But we passed entire Serbia and North Macedonia by bus when going to Greece.

[Skerdilaid]

I think they are Moračanin/Bogićevci . So I guess it's not BY611

Anyway, I removed them map. But as you can see percentages are not reported correctly. That’s a lot of Z2705 among southern serbs that they haven’t included in that pie chart (definitely over 5%).

All the samples in purple that you saw are Z2705 and related to us Albanians within the 1500 year period. Sanxhaklia belonging to this subclade are mostly Kelmend, Koje, Triesh and Kastrat.

[Pribislav]

Many times yeah. But we passed entire Serbia and North Macedonia by bus when going to Greece.

Where in Vojvodina you have been?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Where in Vojvodina you have been?

Subotica, we have family friends there.

[Skerdilaid]

.....

[HungryLion]

Anyway, I removed them map. But as you can see percentages are not reported correctly. That’s a lot of Z2705 among southern serbs that they haven’t included in that pie chart (definitely over 5%).

All the samples in purple that you saw are Z2705 and related to us Albanians within the 1500 year period. Sanxhaklia belonging to this subclade are mostly Kelmend, Koje, Triesh and Kastrat.

Still they are not BY611..It is not the same.
Like is not all I2a typical for Serb's.

[CommonSense]

In Torlakia % of I2-PH908 is much higher than % of I2-Z17855. 26 of tested Torlakians are PH908, while only 2 of them(both in Ponišavlje region) are Z17855.

Great, now the braniacs at forum.hr will have to spend months devising a theory on the Croatian origin of Torlakians :lol:

[Nikša]

Great, now the braniacs at forum.hr will have to spend months devising a theory on the Croatian origin of Torlakians :lol:

Remember of Krašovani, "Croats in Romania" who speak torlakian dialect. :D

[Skerdilaid]

Still they are not BY611..It is not the same.
Like is not all I2a typical for Serb's.

What’s not the same? Z2705 is a subbranch of BY611 (the most dominant R1b subclade among Albanians).

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Remember of Krašovani, "Croats in Romania" who speak torlakian dialect. :D

Similar like ''Serbs'' in Kupres who speak ikavica xD

[Nikša]

Similar like ''Serbs'' in Kupres who speak ikavica xD

It is shtokavian ikavica which is different from chakavian(real croatian). We have ikavica surnames like Svitlica which exist mostly or only in Serbs. Even our ekavica in Serbia is influenced by ikavica and that is why we say "nisam" instead of "nesam", etc. Only Torlakians speak pure ekavica. Shtokavian ikavica, ijekavica and ekavica are all equally serbian by origin.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

It is shtokavian ikavica which is different from chakavian(real croatian). We have ikavica surnames like Svitlica which exist mostly or only in Serbs. Even our ekavica in Serbia is influenced by ikavica and that is why we say "nisam" instead of "nesam", etc. Only Torlakians speak pure ekavica. Shtokavian ikavica, ijekavica and ekavica are all equally serbian by origin.

Aboslutely not. I don't care for your četnik fantasies Montenigger. Ikavica has zero relation with Serbs, Serbian medieval language was much closer to Bulgarian.

[CommonSense]

Remember of Krašovani, "Croats in Romania" who speak torlakian dialect. :D

It's unfair that they too weren't assigned a color. What do you think we should call them, Purple Croats, Green Croats? :lmao

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

It's unfair that they too weren't assigned a color. What do you think we should call them, Purple Croats, Green Croats? :lmao

They are similar case like slavicized Šiptars in Montenegro who declare as Serbs.

[CommonSense]

They are similar case like slavicized Šiptars in Montenegro who declare as Serbs.

There is no such thing. However, there are plenty of slavicized Romanians in Eastern Serbia who only speak Serbian and identify as Serbs.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

There is no such thing. However, there are plenty of slavicized Romanians in Eastern Serbia who only speak Serbian and identify as Serbs.

I think of those Brda clans with typical Albanian haplogroups who are hard-core Serbian nationalists.

[CommonSense]

I think of those Brda clans with typical Albanian haplogroups who are hard-core Serbian nationalists.

The founder of those clans might have been an Albanian or Vlach, but the bulk of their genetics is still Serbian and they have considered themselves as part of our nation since the Middle Ages.

[Pribislav]

Similar like ''Serbs'' in Kupres who speak ikavica xD

Kupres Serbs speak shtokavian (Serbian) ikavica like Bunjevci, not chakavian (Croatian) one www.malovan.net/Lat/Tekst/524/IKAVIZAM-U-GOVORU-SRBA-NA-KUPRESU

[Bosniensis]

---

јеис ли ти постао љубитељ јована деретића, знам да си га исмијавао ... али прузнај од хрпе глупости да има доста и исправних ствари као и сви слободни историчари.

[Pribislav]

јеис ли ти постао љубитељ јована деретића, знам да си га исмијавао ... али прузнај од хрпе глупости да има доста и исправних ствари као и сви слободни историчари.

Jaшта, нег' јесам. :)

Више си га ти пљува и исмијава него ја побро .

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Kupres Serbs speak shtokavian (Serbian) ikavica like Bunjevci, not chakavian (Croatian) one www.malovan.net/Lat/Tekst/524/IKAVIZAM-U-GOVORU-SRBA-NA-KUPRESU

They adopted this dialect from neighbouring Croat majority or they are simply Croat converts to orthodox faith. There is no Serbian ikavica, only in science fiction novels.

[Pribislav]

They adopted this dialect from neighbouring Croat majority ot they are simply Croat converts to orthodox faith. There is no Serbian ikavica, only in science fiction novels.

They are mostly natives in area.
Some of them have ikavian surnames such as Bilanović and Svitlica.
Bilanovići and Duvnjaci Serbs from Kupres are tested as R1a, and Svitlice are most likely R1a as well.

Former Krajina minister Slobodan Jarčević is from Kupres. His remember grandfather and grandmother who speak ikavica. He say his ancestors always live on Kupres, and never been Catholics.
Look at last few sentences kovceg.tripod.com/jarc_hrvatski_umire.htm
One guy one Serbian forum who is linguist and know history very well say for Kupres Serb that they are "Orthodox Bunjevci", one of medieval Serbian Orthodox enclaves deep in west.

[Leto]

Y dna of Serbs from Serbia (sampe 785)
https://i.imgur.com/TmnQx4J.png


Y dna of Bosnian Serbs (sample 380)
https://i.imgur.com/11TNVjt.jpg
Wow, didn't know Bosnian Serbs are ca. 25 percent R1a.

[Jana]

Wow, didn't know Bosnian Serbs are ca. 25 percent R1a.

They aren't, percentage of R1a is inflated because one Serb R1a "tribe" from eastern Bosnia tested close to 100 people iirc.

[Dušan]

Something which surprised me here is so high % of I2 in southern Serbia.


Nothing surprising.

I2 is highest haplogroup among all Serbs, regardless region - north, south, west or east.

[Varda]

Wow, didn't know Bosnian Serbs are ca. 25 percent R1a.


They aren't, percentage of R1a is inflated because one Serb R1a "tribe" from eastern Bosnia tested close to 100 people iirc.

On a larger sample Serbs of BiH are about 20% R1a.

Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 677 samples https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1331.msg119488#msg119488

[Leto]

On a larger sample Serbs of BiH are about 20% R1a.

Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 677 samples https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1331.msg119488#msg119488
I hope you are one too if you ever get to take a test :cool: Though there is a 80% chance you're going to be something else. Like Dushan or Mortimer :D