Serbian/Montenigrin DNA Match

[North Sea]

So I noticed I match this Serb on gedmatch and according to gedmatch we are 4th or 3rd cousins ... He has the same surname as Serbias national hero Petrovic who was from Montenegro ... given the same surname and the fact he matches Albanians , I assume this kid is also of Montenigrin origjn ... although I shall email him asking more about his origins and haplogroups


I ran our kits to match on default


Largest segment = 12.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 38.5 cM (1.073 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.3

4 shared segments found for this comparison.

158145 SNPs used for this comparison.


According to this we could be like 3rd cousins or something

on 50 snp and 1 cm



Largest segment = 12.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1114.4 cM (31.099 Pct)



535 shared segments found for this comparison.

158145 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.736 Pct SNPs are full identical

[North Sea]

His Puntdnal K13, very different from mine , He is clearly a South Slav which is basically a Balkan - Slavic mix










Population (source)Distance

1 Serbian4.29
2Macedonian5.28
3Bulgarian5.46
4Montenegrin5.48
5Romanian6.06
6Bosnian7.75
7Croatian8.49
8French9.31
9Italian_Bergamo9.33
10Moldavian9.56
11Kosovar9.99
12German_South10.34
13Italian_Tuscan10.61
14Albanian10.82
15Hungarian10.86
16Belgian11.35
17Greek_Thessaly11.59
18Spaniard11.78
19Slovene11.81
20English12.82

[MiloshN]

What is his Y-DNA?? EV13?

[Ayetooey]

I don't think this is a big deal; Serbs and Albos can often have each other as 4th or 5th cousins (in small numbers). I have a 40cm 4th cousin from Medveđa on FTDNA.

[North Sea]

What is his Y-DNA?? EV13?

I will email him and ask.

[North Sea]

I don't think this is a big deal; Serbs and Albos can often have each other as 4th or 5th cousins (in small numbers). I have a 40cm 4th cousin from Medveđa on FTDNA.

Yeah I agree. I get Montenigrin or Serb relatives here and there.


But it seems some Montenigrins are autosomally really close to some of the Northenmost Albanians , not this guy but I am talking based on some other calcs which I will show later ... while some if not most Montenigrins are autosomally like Serbs ... They also migrated to Serbia etc

[CommonSense]

Can you post his Eurogenes K13 and K15? And not just the population distance, the full oracle please.

[North Sea]

Can you post his Eurogenes K13 and K15? And not just the population distance, the full oracle please.

You can have his kit number . I repped you ....

[CommonSense]

It's reasonable to assume that he really is a Montenegrin based on these results:

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 26.13
2 North_Atlantic 24.28
3 West_Med 19.43
4 East_Med 17.55
5 West_Asian 7.38
6 South_Asian 2.59
7 Red_Sea 1.47
8 Amerindian 0.58
9 East_Asian 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 4.75
2 Serbian 5.43
3 Bulgarian 5.96
4 Moldavian 10.24
5 Hungarian 12.4
6 Croatian 12.45
7 Greek_Thessaly 12.76
8 Austrian 14.91
9 North_Italian 15.5
10 East_German 16.41
11 Tuscan 16.61
12 French 18.89
13 West_German 18.95
14 Ukrainian_Lviv 18.99
15 Italian_Abruzzo 19.34
16 South_Polish 19.61
17 Portuguese 19.74
18 Spanish_Galicia 20
19 Ukrainian 20.04
20 West_Sicilian 20.05

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50% West_Sicilian + 50% Ukrainian @ 3.15
2 62.2% Croatian + 37.8% West_Sicilian @ 3.34
3 50.7% Croatian + 49.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.43
4 61.1% Greek_Thessaly + 38.9% South_Polish @ 3.6
5 61.7% Greek_Thessaly + 38.3% Ukrainian @ 3.64
6 65.1% Greek_Thessaly + 34.9% Polish @ 3.67
7 90.4% Serbian + 9.6% Sardinian @ 3.73
8 62.9% Moldavian + 37.1% Tuscan @ 3.77
9 56.2% West_Sicilian + 43.8% Estonian_Polish @ 3.79
10 53.6% West_Sicilian + 46.4% Polish @ 3.81
11 60.8% West_Sicilian + 39.2% Lithuanian @ 3.81
12 70.9% Croatian + 29.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.82
13 51.4% Ukrainian_Lviv + 48.6% West_Sicilian @ 3.83
14 66.8% Croatian + 33.2% South_Italian @ 3.86
15 71% Greek_Thessaly + 29% Estonian @ 3.88
16 71% Croatian + 29% Italian_Jewish @ 3.9
17 59% Tuscan + 41% Southwest_Russian @ 3.9
18 50.6% South_Polish + 49.4% West_Sicilian @ 3.93
19 54.9% Tuscan + 45.1% Ukrainian @ 3.95
20 57.8% Croatian + 42.2% Tuscan @ 3.96

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 18.58
2 Atlantic 15.83
3 North_Sea 15.61
4 West_Med 15.27
5 East_Med 13.81
6 Eastern_Euro 9.55
7 West_Asian 7.06
8 South_Asian 2.51
9 Red_Sea 1.42
10 Amerindian 0.28
11 Southeast_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 5.45
2 Bulgarian 6.09
3 Serbian 6.65
4 Moldavian 9.34
5 Croatian 10.42
6 Hungarian 11.24
7 Austrian 11.61
8 Greek_Thessaly 12.14
9 Greek 13.16
10 North_Italian 14.63
11 Tuscan 15.22
12 East_German 15.33
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 16.29
14 South_Polish 16.95
15 Ukrainian 17.21
16 Spanish_Galicia 17.83
17 Italian_Abruzzo 18.06
18 French 18.07
19 Portuguese 18.25
20 Spanish_Cataluna 18.57

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% Croatian + 45.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.43
2 62.4% Greek_Thessaly + 37.6% Polish @ 3.84
3 55.7% Greek + 44.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.93
4 57.2% Greek + 42.8% Ukrainian @ 3.93
5 56.6% Croatian + 43.4% Greek @ 3.96
6 69.1% Croatian + 30.9% South_Italian @ 3.96
7 62.9% Tuscan + 37.1% Lithuanian @ 3.99
8 59% Greek_Thessaly + 41% South_Polish @ 4
9 65.5% Greek_Thessaly + 34.5% Estonian_Polish @ 4.01
10 63% Greek_Thessaly + 37% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.09
11 54.4% Hungarian + 45.6% Greek @ 4.14
12 52.6% Ukrainian + 47.4% West_Sicilian @ 4.19
13 54% Ukrainian_Lviv + 46% West_Sicilian @ 4.2
14 56.8% Greek + 43.2% South_Polish @ 4.21
15 65.5% Greek_Thessaly + 34.5% Belorussian @ 4.21
16 73.5% Croatian + 26.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.22
17 56.3% Ukrainian + 43.7% South_Italian @ 4.24
18 53.3% Tuscan + 46.7% Ukrainian @ 4.27
19 51.8% Tuscan + 48.2% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.28
20 66.7% Croatian + 33.3% East_Sicilian @ 4.3


https://i.imgur.com/6dreLzL.png

[Pribislav]

It's reasonable to assume that he really is a Montenegrin based on these results:

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 26.13
2 North_Atlantic 24.28
3 West_Med 19.43
4 East_Med 17.55
5 West_Asian 7.38
6 South_Asian 2.59
7 Red_Sea 1.47
8 Amerindian 0.58
9 East_Asian 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 4.75
2 Serbian 5.43
3 Bulgarian 5.96
4 Moldavian 10.24
5 Hungarian 12.4
6 Croatian 12.45
7 Greek_Thessaly 12.76
8 Austrian 14.91
9 North_Italian 15.5
10 East_German 16.41
11 Tuscan 16.61
12 French 18.89
13 West_German 18.95
14 Ukrainian_Lviv 18.99
15 Italian_Abruzzo 19.34
16 South_Polish 19.61
17 Portuguese 19.74
18 Spanish_Galicia 20
19 Ukrainian 20.04
20 West_Sicilian 20.05

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50% West_Sicilian + 50% Ukrainian @ 3.15
2 62.2% Croatian + 37.8% West_Sicilian @ 3.34
3 50.7% Croatian + 49.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.43
4 61.1% Greek_Thessaly + 38.9% South_Polish @ 3.6
5 61.7% Greek_Thessaly + 38.3% Ukrainian @ 3.64
6 65.1% Greek_Thessaly + 34.9% Polish @ 3.67
7 90.4% Serbian + 9.6% Sardinian @ 3.73
8 62.9% Moldavian + 37.1% Tuscan @ 3.77
9 56.2% West_Sicilian + 43.8% Estonian_Polish @ 3.79
10 53.6% West_Sicilian + 46.4% Polish @ 3.81
11 60.8% West_Sicilian + 39.2% Lithuanian @ 3.81
12 70.9% Croatian + 29.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.82
13 51.4% Ukrainian_Lviv + 48.6% West_Sicilian @ 3.83
14 66.8% Croatian + 33.2% South_Italian @ 3.86
15 71% Greek_Thessaly + 29% Estonian @ 3.88
16 71% Croatian + 29% Italian_Jewish @ 3.9
17 59% Tuscan + 41% Southwest_Russian @ 3.9
18 50.6% South_Polish + 49.4% West_Sicilian @ 3.93
19 54.9% Tuscan + 45.1% Ukrainian @ 3.95
20 57.8% Croatian + 42.2% Tuscan @ 3.96

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 18.58
2 Atlantic 15.83
3 North_Sea 15.61
4 West_Med 15.27
5 East_Med 13.81
6 Eastern_Euro 9.55
7 West_Asian 7.06
8 South_Asian 2.51
9 Red_Sea 1.42
10 Amerindian 0.28
11 Southeast_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 5.45
2 Bulgarian 6.09
3 Serbian 6.65
4 Moldavian 9.34
5 Croatian 10.42
6 Hungarian 11.24
7 Austrian 11.61
8 Greek_Thessaly 12.14
9 Greek 13.16
10 North_Italian 14.63
11 Tuscan 15.22
12 East_German 15.33
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 16.29
14 South_Polish 16.95
15 Ukrainian 17.21
16 Spanish_Galicia 17.83
17 Italian_Abruzzo 18.06
18 French 18.07
19 Portuguese 18.25
20 Spanish_Cataluna 18.57

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% Croatian + 45.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.43
2 62.4% Greek_Thessaly + 37.6% Polish @ 3.84
3 55.7% Greek + 44.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.93
4 57.2% Greek + 42.8% Ukrainian @ 3.93
5 56.6% Croatian + 43.4% Greek @ 3.96
6 69.1% Croatian + 30.9% South_Italian @ 3.96
7 62.9% Tuscan + 37.1% Lithuanian @ 3.99
8 59% Greek_Thessaly + 41% South_Polish @ 4
9 65.5% Greek_Thessaly + 34.5% Estonian_Polish @ 4.01
10 63% Greek_Thessaly + 37% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.09
11 54.4% Hungarian + 45.6% Greek @ 4.14
12 52.6% Ukrainian + 47.4% West_Sicilian @ 4.19
13 54% Ukrainian_Lviv + 46% West_Sicilian @ 4.2
14 56.8% Greek + 43.2% South_Polish @ 4.21
15 65.5% Greek_Thessaly + 34.5% Belorussian @ 4.21
16 73.5% Croatian + 26.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.22
17 56.3% Ukrainian + 43.7% South_Italian @ 4.24
18 53.3% Tuscan + 46.7% Ukrainian @ 4.27
19 51.8% Tuscan + 48.2% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.28
20 66.7% Croatian + 33.3% East_Sicilian @ 4.3


https://i.imgur.com/6dreLzL.png

He is southeastern from Serbian average on K15.

It's logical that Mongenegrin ploting south from Serbian average, but east is interesting. I imagine Mohtenegrins as western shifted.
I have seen you posted K15 of Montenegrin woman which ploting close to Bulgarians. It seems Montenegrins are not western shifted in comparation with Serbs.
Bosnian and Krajina Serbs are more western shifted than Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrin. Autosomal genetic = geography!

[TheMaestro]

He has very similar results like me.

[North Sea]

It's reasonable to assume that he really is a Montenegrin based on these results:

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 26.13
2 North_Atlantic 24.28
3 West_Med 19.43
4 East_Med 17.55
5 West_Asian 7.38
6 South_Asian 2.59
7 Red_Sea 1.47
8 Amerindian 0.58
9 East_Asian 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 4.75
2 Serbian 5.43
3 Bulgarian 5.96
4 Moldavian 10.24
5 Hungarian 12.4
6 Croatian 12.45
7 Greek_Thessaly 12.76
8 Austrian 14.91
9 North_Italian 15.5
10 East_German 16.41
11 Tuscan 16.61
12 French 18.89
13 West_German 18.95
14 Ukrainian_Lviv 18.99
15 Italian_Abruzzo 19.34
16 South_Polish 19.61
17 Portuguese 19.74
18 Spanish_Galicia 20
19 Ukrainian 20.04
20 West_Sicilian 20.05

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50% West_Sicilian + 50% Ukrainian @ 3.15
2 62.2% Croatian + 37.8% West_Sicilian @ 3.34
3 50.7% Croatian + 49.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.43
4 61.1% Greek_Thessaly + 38.9% South_Polish @ 3.6
5 61.7% Greek_Thessaly + 38.3% Ukrainian @ 3.64
6 65.1% Greek_Thessaly + 34.9% Polish @ 3.67
7 90.4% Serbian + 9.6% Sardinian @ 3.73
8 62.9% Moldavian + 37.1% Tuscan @ 3.77
9 56.2% West_Sicilian + 43.8% Estonian_Polish @ 3.79
10 53.6% West_Sicilian + 46.4% Polish @ 3.81
11 60.8% West_Sicilian + 39.2% Lithuanian @ 3.81
12 70.9% Croatian + 29.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.82
13 51.4% Ukrainian_Lviv + 48.6% West_Sicilian @ 3.83
14 66.8% Croatian + 33.2% South_Italian @ 3.86
15 71% Greek_Thessaly + 29% Estonian @ 3.88
16 71% Croatian + 29% Italian_Jewish @ 3.9
17 59% Tuscan + 41% Southwest_Russian @ 3.9
18 50.6% South_Polish + 49.4% West_Sicilian @ 3.93
19 54.9% Tuscan + 45.1% Ukrainian @ 3.95
20 57.8% Croatian + 42.2% Tuscan @ 3.96

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 18.58
2 Atlantic 15.83
3 North_Sea 15.61
4 West_Med 15.27
5 East_Med 13.81
6 Eastern_Euro 9.55
7 West_Asian 7.06
8 South_Asian 2.51
9 Red_Sea 1.42
10 Amerindian 0.28
11 Southeast_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 5.45
2 Bulgarian 6.09
3 Serbian 6.65
4 Moldavian 9.34
5 Croatian 10.42
6 Hungarian 11.24
7 Austrian 11.61
8 Greek_Thessaly 12.14
9 Greek 13.16
10 North_Italian 14.63
11 Tuscan 15.22
12 East_German 15.33
13 Ukrainian_Lviv 16.29
14 South_Polish 16.95
15 Ukrainian 17.21
16 Spanish_Galicia 17.83
17 Italian_Abruzzo 18.06
18 French 18.07
19 Portuguese 18.25
20 Spanish_Cataluna 18.57

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% Croatian + 45.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.43
2 62.4% Greek_Thessaly + 37.6% Polish @ 3.84
3 55.7% Greek + 44.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.93
4 57.2% Greek + 42.8% Ukrainian @ 3.93
5 56.6% Croatian + 43.4% Greek @ 3.96
6 69.1% Croatian + 30.9% South_Italian @ 3.96
7 62.9% Tuscan + 37.1% Lithuanian @ 3.99
8 59% Greek_Thessaly + 41% South_Polish @ 4
9 65.5% Greek_Thessaly + 34.5% Estonian_Polish @ 4.01
10 63% Greek_Thessaly + 37% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.09
11 54.4% Hungarian + 45.6% Greek @ 4.14
12 52.6% Ukrainian + 47.4% West_Sicilian @ 4.19
13 54% Ukrainian_Lviv + 46% West_Sicilian @ 4.2
14 56.8% Greek + 43.2% South_Polish @ 4.21
15 65.5% Greek_Thessaly + 34.5% Belorussian @ 4.21
16 73.5% Croatian + 26.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.22
17 56.3% Ukrainian + 43.7% South_Italian @ 4.24
18 53.3% Tuscan + 46.7% Ukrainian @ 4.27
19 51.8% Tuscan + 48.2% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.28
20 66.7% Croatian + 33.3% East_Sicilian @ 4.3


https://i.imgur.com/6dreLzL.png

Yeah, he matches me and some other Albanians and has surname Petrovic so I figured he must have origins from there. He is quite Southern shifted . There are possibly Montenigrind that are even more South than this as on a calculator I get Montenegrin and Italian as top 2 ethnicites and I am south of this guy .I am between North Italy and Bulgaria.

[North Sea]

If you like i can send you more kits of Serbs me and other Albanians match

[North Sea]

I looked at this guys matches and I seem to be one of his closest relatives if not his closest. He is also one of my closest. This means that I might be related to Serbias national hero maybe ? lol


I think gedmatch measures relation ship based on total cM . but its probably a combination of both largest segment and total cM and I am on top of this guys list , basically his closest relative while he is my 4th closest. There are some people that have a larger segment with me than he does but they dont match me closer than this guy according to generation estimate probably since our total cM is higher which is how relationship is determined probably.

says he has also the closest Estimated number of generations to MRC with me at 4.3

[North Sea]

What is his Y-DNA?? EV13?

I sent this guy a message asking about his origins. Hope he will reply. But Petrovic are from Vasejovici according to WIKI.

Do you know what YDNA haplogroup Vasojevici have tested for ?


I am from Gash I gurit and maternal tribe is from Kuqi. Vasojevici might be related to Kuqi ?

[Pribislav]

I looked at this guys matches and I seem to be one of his closest relatives if not his closest. He is also one of my closest. This means that I might be related to Serbias national hero maybe ? lol


I think gedmatch measures relation ship based on total cM . but its probably a combination of both largest segment and total cM and I am on top of this guys list , basically his closest relative while he is my 4th closest. There are some people that have a larger segment with me than he does but they dont match me closer than this guy according to generation estimate probably since our total cM is higher which is how relationship is determined probably.

says he has also the closest Estimated number of generations to MRC with me at 4.3

Miroljub Petrović is Shiptar who play Montenegrin Serb.

That masonic pest is guilty for death of several people.

[HungryLion]

I sent this guy a message asking about his origins. Hope he will reply. But Petrovic are from Vasejovici according to WIKI.

Do you know what YDNA haplogroup Vasojevici have tested for ?


I am from Gash I gurit and maternal tribe isn from Kuqi

Petrović is not from Vasojevići tribe, more chance that he is from Kuči. Vasojevići have E-V13 but very diferent than other people on Balkan...Their E-V13 is about 5000 years difference from first closser relative on Balkan.

[HungryLion]

If you think on Karađorđe Petrović, he was I2a-Din North.
His ancestors only went through the territory of Vasojević tribe..

[Bosniensis]

Miroljub Petrović is Shiptar who play Montenegrin Serb.

That masonic pest is guilty for death of several people.

He was in Petrovac recently, have you visited him... he is building a new seclusion house for his patients as well (in Petrovac)

You had an opportunity to throw a rock at him.

[Pribislav]

If you think on Karađorđe Petrović, he was I2a-Din North.
His ancestors only went through the territory of Vasojević tribe..

Yes, Karađorđe was I2-CTS10228.

He was not of Vasojevići neiher of Kelmendi origin.

[HungryLion]

Anyway, I would like to see results from Skenderbeg and other medieval heroes that we are known where they buried.Nemanjić dinasty Also..

[HungryLion]

Yes, Karađorđe was I2-CTS10228.

He was not of Vasojevići neiher of Kelmendi origin.

Yes..
Well I didn't have doubt about that even before test. :)

[Pribislav]

Kaplan Resuli Burović and Teodora Toleva debunked many Albanian nationalistic myths.

[North Sea]

If you think on Karađorđe Petrović, he was I2a-Din North.
His ancestors only went through the territory of Vasojević tribe..

How was this found out and by went through you mean they joined them ? That makes sense if true. Though there were sources that claimed Karadorde family were of Albanian origin. Not that I beliieve this but since I match this guy it caught my interest.


According to a Serbian source Karadorde family were from Vasojevic. So I sent this kid a message. Lets see if he replies. I asked him what tribe he is. Its possible Vasojevici could of mixed with North Albanian tribes through time.


Petrović is not from Vasojevići tribe, more chance that he is from Kuči. Vasojevići have E-V13 but very diferent than other people on Balkan...Their E-V13 is about 5000 years difference from first closser relative on Balkan.


How many Vasojevici have there been tested ?

I am just trying to fnd out how I am related to this guy and what relationship he might have to Petrovic Karadorde. Since they both seem to be from Montenegro they could possible be related ? Anyway, this guy might not even be related paternally but maternally or something also. Raznatovic seem also related to Albanians.

[North Sea]

Miroljub Petrović is Shiptar who play Montenegrin Serb.

That masonic pest is guilty for death of several people.

Its not miroljub. this is a different kid. His name is not Miroljub

[Pribislav]

How was this found out and by went through you mean they joined them ? That makes sense if true. Though there were sources that claimed Karadorde family were of Albanian origin. Not that I beliieve this but since I match this guy it caught my interest.


According to a Serbian source Karadorde family were from Vasojevic. So I sent this kid a message. Lets see if he replies. I asked him what tribe he is. Its possible Vasojevici could of mixed with North Albanian tribes through time.




How many Vasojevici have there been tested ?

I am just trying to fnd out how I am related to this guy and what relationship he might have to Petrovic Karadorde. Since they both seem to be from Montenegro they could possible be related ? Anyway, this guy might not even be related paternally but maternally or something also. Raznatovic seem also related to Albanians.

Arkan is also I2-CTS1028.

Both Arkan and Karađorđe are not related with Albanians.

[North Sea]

Anyway, I would like to see results from Skenderbeg and other medieval heroes that we are known where they buried.Nemanjić dinasty Also..

Yes. I agree with this. Some people claim ancestry from Skanderbeg. There are some Arbereshe in Italy and some Albanians, Some Montenigrins also claimed it.

But Skanderbeg was Albanian paternally. I believe they would test for a typical Albanian YDNA . Some claim they came from Kastrati tribe . Nemanjic dynasty would be interesting also.


Kaplan Resuli Burović and Teodora Toleva debunked many Albanian nationalistic myths.

Not sure what you mean ? These names like Kaplan or those articles seem rather invented by Serbian nationalists or they use the names of actual people and make fake news same way they did with an Albanian historian , other than that I have no idea what you mean . Its rather Serbian nationalist myths that have been debunked since many Serbs claimed North Albanian tribes of Serbian origin including Shkreli, Kelmendi Kuqi , Krasniqi , Kastrati etc ... wikipedia was cited with Serbian sources claiming these tribes as Serbian since there are also Serbs that have origin from these tribes, we have dozzen of results from people of these tribes and majority are R1b , J2b2 and ev13 .


Seems rather some Montenigrin tribes were Albanian or Vlach in origin. Balsic possibly also had Albanian origin.

[HungryLion]

How was this found out and by went through you mean they joined them ? That makes sense if true. Though there were sources that claimed Karadorde family were of Albanian origin. Not that I beliieve this but since I match this guy it caught my interest.


According to a Serbian source Karadorde family were from Vasojevic. So I sent this kid a message. Lets see if he replies. I asked him what tribe he is. Its possible Vasojevici could of mixed with North Albanian tribes through time.




How many Vasojevici have there been tested ?

I am just trying to fnd out how I am related to this guy and what relationship he might have to Petrovic Karadorde. Since they both seem to be from Montenegro they could possible be related ? Anyway, this guy might not even be related paternally but maternally or something also. Raznatovic seem also related to Albanians.

Msny od Vasojevic tribe was tested..They have their "own" E-V13 If I may say that..It's nothinh umusual that some people going from one terytory to another, like for example Karađorđe ancestors..Arkan is also I2a din north.
Also albanian and serbian tribes were living togheter very well before turks, especilay in north Albania, so I guess it's normal that some of slavic trace show up there, or serbian people who were from there to have slavic haplogrup.

In my opinion this Petrović guy could be from Kuči, they are were in good relations whit Malisori and also maried/mixed in past.

[North Sea]

Arkan is also I2-CTS1028.

Both Arkan and Karađorđe are not related with Albanians.

I know that Raznatovic tested i2a1b . On autosomal they matched Albanians which means they do have some Albanian origin or are mixed with Albanians autosomally. YDNA isn't everything in ancestry.

[Dick]

Msny od Vasojevic tribe was tested..They have their "own" E-V13 If I may say that..It's nothinh umusual that some people going from one terytory to another, like for example Karađorđe ancestors..Arkan is also I2a din north.
Also albanian and serbian tribes were living togheter very well before turks, especilay in north Albania, so I guess it's normal that some of slavic trace show up there, or serbian people who were from there to have slavic haplogrup.

In my opinion this Petrović guy could be from Kuči, they are were in good relations whit Malisori and also maried/mixed in past.

Mortimier's subclade is vasojevic

[Dick]

I know that Raznatovic tested i2a1b . On autosomal they matched Albanians which means they do have some Albanian origin or are mixed with Albanians autosomally. YDNA isn't everything in ancestry.

Ydna means their paternal line is either Albanian or serbian though. autosmal changes every generation.

[Pribislav]

Yes. I agree with this. Some people claim ancestry from Skanderbeg. There are some Arbereshe in Italy and some Albanians, Some Montenigrins also claimed it.

But Skanderbeg was Albanian paternally. I believe they would test for a typical Albanian YDNA . Some claim they came from Kastrati tribe . Nemanjic dynasty would be interesting also.



Not sure what you mean ? These names like Kaplan or those articles seem rather invented by Serbian nationalists or they use the names of actual people and make fake news same way they did with an Albanian historian , other than that I have no idea what you mean . Its rather Serbian nationalist myths that have been debunked since many Serbs claimed North Albanian tribes of Serbian origin including Shkreli, Kelmendi Kuqi , Krasniqi , Kastrati etc ... wikipedia was cited with Serbian sources claiming these tribes as Serbian since there are also Serbs that have origin from these tribes, we have dozzen of results from people of these tribes and majority are R1b , J2b2 and ev13 .


Seems rather some Montenigrin tribes were Albanian or Vlach in origin. Balsic possibly also had Albanian origin.

Nice try!

Paternal ancestor of Balšić family arrived from southern France from Provence.

[HungryLion]

Yes. I agree with this. Some people claim ancestry from Skanderbeg. There are some Arbereshe in Italy and some Albanians, Some Montenigrins also claimed it.

But Skanderbeg was Albanian paternally. I believe they would test for a typical Albanian YDNA . Some claim they came from Kastrati tribe . Nemanjic dynasty would be interesting also.



Not sure what you mean ? These names like Kaplan or those articles seem rather invented by Serbian nationalists or they use the names of actual people and make fake news same way they did with an Albanian historian , other than that I have no idea what you mean . Its rather Serbian nationalist myths that have been debunked since many Serbs claimed North Albanian tribes of Serbian origin including Shkreli, Kelmendi Kuqi , Krasniqi , Kastrati etc ... wikipedia was cited with Serbian sources claiming these tribes as Serbian since there are also Serbs that have origin from these tribes, we have dozzen of results from people of these tribes and majority are R1b , J2b2 and ev13 .


Seems rather some Montenigrin tribes were Albanian or Vlach in origin. Balsic possibly also had Albanian origin.

the situation about E-V13 is complicated and I think it's vlach haplo, some have become Serbs and some Albanians..R1b-BY611 is more proto albanian.

[North Sea]

Msny od Vasojevic tribe was tested..They have their "own" E-V13 If I may say that..It's nothinh umusual that some people going from one terytory to another, like for example Karađorđe ancestors..Arkan is also I2a din north.
Also albanian and serbian tribes were living togheter very well before turks, especilay in north Albania, so I guess it's normal that some of slavic trace show up there, or serbian people who were from there to have slavic haplogrup.

In my opinion this Petrović guy could be from Kuči, they are were in good relations whit Malisori and also maried/mixed in past.

Serbs are genetically more Balkan than Albanians are Slavic though. And yes, Montenigrin tribes did mix with Abanians , the relationship doesn't have to be from YDNA. North Albania has almost no Slavic YDNA. It could be from taking brides also or from other lineages.

On Autosomal DNA , I don't get any East Europe for example.

[HungryLion]

I know that Raznatovic tested i2a1b . On autosomal they matched Albanians which means they do have some Albanian origin or are mixed with Albanians autosomally. YDNA isn't everything in ancestry.

Y dna is most important part..
Well from 50+ page of "relatives" everybody gets some albanian, serbs etc..That is not relevant.. It's not like they have first 5 pages only Albanians.

[HungryLion]

Serbs are genetically more Balkan than Albanians are Slavic though. And yes, Montenigrin tribes did mix with Abanians , the relationship doesn't have to be from YDNA. North Albania has almost no Slavic YDNA. It could be from taking brides also or from other lineages.

On Autosomal DNA , I don't get any East Europe for example.

as I said some of these E-V13 were Serbian and some were Albanian..it is most precise to say that this is a Balkan haplogroup

[Pribislav]

Dukađini tribe got their name by German nobleman who took power in part of northern Albania in the middle age. He had a title Duka (Duke), and Albanians call him Đin. Dukađini came from Duka Đin.

There is some I1 in northern Albania, most likely from this German nobleman.

[HungryLion]

Dukađini tribe got their name by German nobleman who took power in part of northern Albania in the middle age. He had a title Duka (Duke), and Albanians call him Đin. Dukađini came from Duka Đin.

There issome I1 in northern Albania, most likely from this German nobleman.

They are wrong in one thing, bc they think like all south europe on Balkan come from Albanians, which is very wrong.

[Cumansky]

13.2 CM Petrovic (Macedonia he put origin, but half Sweden)

44.4% Balkan
33.5% Scandinavian
8.0% Iberian
5.9% Italian
4.1% East European
2.5% English
1.6% Finnish

This MyHeritage..

[Pribislav]

They are wrong in one thing, bc they think like all south europe on Balkan come from Albanians, which is very wrong.

Before Ottomans Albanians were small ethnic group mostly living in Mat region in Albania.
Tosks and Arvanites migrated from Mat towards the south in the late middle age. Ghegs migrated from Mat towards the north in late middle age, and even more in Ottoman time.
Tosks and Arvanites adopted Fustanella (clothing) from Vlachs/Aromanians. Ghegs and especially Malisori adopted some element of clothing from Serbs.

[Albobalboa]

the situation about E-V13 is complicated and I think it's vlach haplo, some have become Serbs and some Albanians..R1b-BY611 is more proto albanian.

Vlach is just latinized native. Vlachs in the balkans near Albanians are descendant of the same people that Albanians are descendant of, they just got latinized.

Albanians are remnants of those ancient tribes that didn't get latinized, slavized, or hellenized fully. They're our genetic brothers, that's why Albanians and Greeks are so similar genetically while Slavs aren't.

Also, north Albania and Ghegs in general are very little Slavic Y-DNA (less than 1/10). You got cucked in the mountains, quit lying to yourself. 15% of Albanians carry slavic Y-DNA and it's from assimilating Bulgarians and I2a-Din Vlachs from Romania or some shit during the middle ages.

[North Sea]

Ydna means their paternal line is either Albanian or serbian though. autosmal changes every generation.

Yes I agree. But its obvious that many Serbs are mixed with Albanians and not just Vlachs. Since I see a lot of Serbs matching Albanians on autosomal. But Serbs claim they aren't mixed with Albos but Albos are Slavic :P But from what I saw, Serbs get more Balkan than Albanians get East Europe but its true that some Albanians also get East Europe etc.

So it is kinda sad that people who are related somehow to go to war and kill eachother ? But I guess thats what generation of brainwashing does to people.

For example , I heard this story of Serbs forcing a Serb to kill an Albanian family in Kosovo during the war because that family had same surname or origin as the Serb , they were Kastrati and the Serb was Kastratovic. But the Serb refused, they put a gun to his head and threatened him.

Kastrati is an Albanian tribe and mostly tested Albanian typical markers J2b2, Ev13 etc from what I know ... so Serbs of Kastratovic are possibly of Albanian origin.


https://youtu.be/5z0fo-Y_QS4

Same way Arkan probably would of slaughtered a bunch of Albanians had he entered Kosovo same way he did to Bosniaks , only to know he might have some Albanian origjn ? Not that I care about that though as he was obviously a criminal .



Nice try!

Paternal ancestor of Balšić family arrived from southern France from Provence.

Balsic have been described as Vlachs, Albanians and even Slavs by many sources. Though there is no doubt the people of Zeta had Albanian origin or Albanian - Slavic mix.

As if them coming from France would mean anything ? Its said by a source that Dukagjini hailed from Normans . Does this make them non Albanian when they have been asimilated and look Albanian and even invented an Albanian code and principalities ? Although there is no proof they came from there.


Balsha and Balaj surname in Albanians is possibly related to Balsic . They hail from a similar or nearby area from what I know as the actual Balsic. :P

Macure possibly have Albanian Vlach origin and Goth origin as they match Albanians .., maybe Goths got asimilated into Albanian Vlach and later some of these went into Serbs.




the situation about E-V13 is complicated and I think it's vlach haplo, some have become Serbs and some Albanians..R1b-BY611 is more proto albanian.

Definitely not. We can agree though that EV13 has many different subclades, A lot of Albanian EV13 has no relation to most other people from what I know in recent time. And Albanian Berisha where Kuqi is from have both tested Ev13 ... Berisha belongs to one of the most typical Albanian Ev13 from what I know. I dont see how they were all Vlachs .

Albanian Frasheri who some claimed were Aromanian belong rather to typical Albanian EV13 marker.


Vlachs and Romanians are just people who became romanised , prior to Romanisation they were similar people to Albanians possibly going by language. Ev13 is a broadly native Balkan haplogroup in general. I dont see how this could of only been carried by Romanised people and not non Romanised.


J2b2 is less broadly Balkan and mostly West Balkan in origin possibly , I havent checked this but so far its only found in West Balkans in ancient samples. Has a relation to proto Ilyrian colonisation, also found in Italy. But its also important to look at the subclades and when they diverged before establishing a relationship ... not every Ev13 is the same or J2b2 or R1b. . Some Albanian EV13 also has a clear West Balkan origin and even a Central European at that. Ilyrian and even Proto Ilyrian.


A lot of Vlachs carry markers like I2a1b possibly due to bottleneck effect , they also have a lot of J2b2 and even R1b l23 ... similar haplogroups to Albanians. But their subclades might be different possibly. Who knows. Most are gone except for Romanians and Aromanians.

[HungryLion]

Vlach is just latinized native. Vlachs in the balkans near Albanians are descendant of the same people that Albanians are descendant of, they just got latinized.

That's pretty unproven..
It's like saying that the Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Romanians, etc. are the same people...there is no awareness of common origin...
It turns out that all who are not Slavs must be Albanians, this is absolutely wrong..just as it is wrong to look at who is the native, before the Albanians (R1b-BY611) there was another I2a etc..

[Dick]

Yes I agree. But its obvious that many Serbs are mixed with Albanians and not just Vlachs. Since I see a lot of Serbs matching Albanians on autosomal. But Serbs claim they aren't mixed with Albos but Albos are Slavic :P But from what I saw, Serbs get more Balkan than Albanians get East Europe but its true that some Albanians also get East Europe etc.


I had this convo with Kelmendasi a while ago. This mixing probably occurred recently, middle ages, during the 'seven fold barjak' when all clans were in alliance with venice against the Ottomans. It can't be from 1000+ years ago at least in Montenegro. Gedmatch's 4-5 generations tmrca probably means 500 years ago.

[Albobalboa]

That's pretty unproven..
It's like saying that the Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Romanians, etc. are the same people...there is no awareness of common origin...
It turns out that all who are not Slavs must be Albanians, this is absolutely wrong..just as it is wrong to look at who is the native, before the Albanians (R1b-BY611) there was another I2a etc..

From what I've understood, Vlachs and Albanians are similar in genetic ancestry. Basically Vlachs in that case are the same as balkan Turks today, or Romanians. Latinized people from the balkans, otherwise they'd be similar to Italians or carry typical Italian haplogroups, whatever those are. There's no "autochton vlach" from some specific ancient balkan tribe, they are simply latinized/"romanized" balkan people, same as Romanians.

Greeks, Italians, Romanians, all differ genetically to the point where it can be traced to their different groups. That is even though they overlap a lot, just like all balkan people.

Let Kelmendasi or someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I've understood it.

[HungryLion]

Yes I agree. But its obvious that many Serbs are mixed with Albanians and not just Vlachs. Since I see a lot of Serbs matching Albanians on autosomal. But Serbs claim they aren't mixed with Albos but Albos are Slavic :P But from what I saw, Serbs get more Balkan than Albanians get East Europe but its true that some Albanians also get East Europe etc.

So it is kinda sad that people who are related somehow to go to war and kill eachother ? But I guess thats what generation of brainwashing does to people.

For example , I heard this story of Serbs forcing a Serb to kill an Albanian family in Kosovo during the war because that family had same surname or origin as the Serb , they were Kastrati and the Serb was Kastratovic. But the Serb refused, they put a gun to his head and threatened him.



https://youtu.be/5z0fo-Y_QS4

Same way Arkan probably would of slaughtered a bunch of Albanians had he entered Kosovo same way he did to Bosniaks , only to know he might have some Albanian origjn ? Not that I care about that though as he was obviously a criminal .




Balsic have been described as Vlachs, Albanians and even Slavs by many sources. Though there is no doubt the people of Zeta had Albanian origin or Albanian - Slavic mix.

As if them coming from France would mean anything ? Its said by a source that Dukagjini hailed from Normans . Does this make them non Albanian when they have been asimilated and look Albanian? Although there is no proof they came from there.


Balsha and Balaj surname in Albanians is possibly related to Balsic . They hail from a similar or nearby area from what I know as the actual Balsic. :P






Definitely not. We can agree though that EV13 has many different subclades, A lot of Albanian EV13 has no relation to most other people from what I know in recent time. And Albanian Berisha where Kuqi is from have both tested Ev13 ... Berisha belongs to one of the most typical Albanian Ev13 from what I know. I dont see how they were all Vlachs .

Albanian Frasheri who some claimed were Aromanian belong rather to typical Albanian EV13 marker.


Vlachs and Romanians are just people who became romanised , prior to Romanisation they were similar people to Albanians possibly going by language. Ev13 is a broadly native Balkan haplogroup in general. I dont see how this could of only been carried by Romanised people and not non Romanised.


J2b2 is less broadly Balkan and mostly West Balkan in origin possibly , I havent checked this but so far its only found in West Balkans in ancient samples. Has a relation to proto Ilyrian colonisation, also found in Italy. But its also important to look at the subclades and when they diverged before establishing a relationship ... not every Ev13 is the same or J2b2 or R1b. . Some Albanian EV13 also has a clear West Balkan origin and even a Central European at that.


A lot of Vlachs carry markers like I2a1b possibly due to bottleneck effect , they also have a lot of J2b2 and even R1b l23 ... similar haplogroups to Albanians. But their subclades might be different possibly.

Arkan was not even in Kosovo 1998-99..

It seems meaningless when you claim that some people are Albanians and they obviously have no Albanian origin.


I can not bother with this.
Obviously, all of you think that all who isn't Slavs automatically have to be Albanians, like Albanians are the only people in universe..I am curious when you are starting to claim that Romanian and Greek people are fully Albanian, oh shit some already did that...

[HungryLion]

From what I've understood, Vlachs and Albanians are similar in genetic ancestry. Basically Vlachs in that case are the same as balkan Turks today, or Romanians. Latinized people from the balkans, otherwise they'd be similar to Italians or carry typical Italian haplogroups, whatever those are. There's no "autochton vlach" from some specific ancient balkan tribe, they are simply latinized/"romanized" balkan people, same as Romanians.

Greeks, Italians, Romanians, all differ genetically to the point where it can be traced to their different groups. That is even though they overlap a lot, just like all balkan people.

Let Kelmendasi or someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I've understood it.

Yes, and they don't have the same origin or same consciousness of the nation. Different peoples who have been romanized...The Slavs did not find any organized state, nor was there any clash or war beatwen Slavs and others...

[Pribislav]

From what I've understood, Vlachs and Albanians are similar in genetic ancestry. Basically Vlachs in that case are the same as balkan Turks today, or Romanians. Latinized people from the balkans, otherwise they'd be similar to Italians or carry typical Italian haplogroups, whatever those are. There's no "autochton vlach" from some specific ancient balkan tribe, they are simply latinized/"romanized" balkan people, same as Romanians.

Greeks, Italians, Romanians, all differ genetically to the point where it can be traced to their different groups. That is even though they overlap a lot, just like all balkan people.

Let Kelmendasi or someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I've understood it.

Vlachs are East Romance speakers.
Proto East Romance language was formed in western Thrace (western Bulgaria and southeastern Serbia).
Ancestors of Megleno-Vlachs and Aromanians migrated from western Thrace to Macedonia, Thessaly and Epirus in 9th/10th century. Ancestors of Romanians migrated from western Thrace to the north in Wallachia in few waves 11th-13th century.
Proto-Albanians and proto-Vlachs lived together as sheperds in the middle age in Thrace and because of that there are some similariries between Albanian and Romanian language.
Proto-Albanians migrated from Thrace to the Mat region in Albania as auxiliary troops of Bulgarian emperor Simeon in late 9th or early 10th century.
Albanian language show some similarities with East Romance languages, not with Romance languages of western Balkan (Dalmatian and Istriot). Dalmatian and Istriot speakers were romanized Illyrians.

Medieval connection of Albanians with eastern Balkan is visible except linguistic throught matches with Romanians and Bulgarians in R-Y32147 TMRCA 1100 ybp. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/

[Albobalboa]

Vlachs are East Romance speakers.
Proto East Romance language was formed in western Thrace (western Bulgaria and southeastern Serbia).
Ancestors of Megleno-Vlachs and Aromanians migrated from western Thrace to Macedonia, Thessaly and Epirus in 9th/10th century. Ancestors of Romanians migrated from western Thrace to the north in Wallachia in few waves 11th-13th century.
Proto-Albanians and proto-Vlachs lived together as sheperds in the middle age in Thrace and because of that there are some similariries between Albanian and Romanian language.
Proto-Albanians migrated from Thrace to the Mat region in Albania as auxiliary troops of Bulgarian emperor Simeon in late 9th century.
Albanian language show some similarities with East Romance languages, not with Romance languages of western Balkan (Dalmatian and Istriot). Dalmatian and Istriot speakers were romanized Illyrians.

Medieval connection of Albanians with eastern Balkan is visible except linguistic throught matches with Romanians and Bulgarians in R-Y32147 TMRCA 1100 ybp. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/

So latinized ancient people of balkans? What here refutes that?

Who here knows the genetic difference between Vlachs and Albanians in Albanian areas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Romance_languages

"According to the generally accepted theory regarding their origin, the Eastern Romance languages, are considered to be a evolution of the Vulgar-Latin, spoken in the Balkan area during the domination of the Roman Empire. The Vulgar-Latin, in its turn, is considered to be a mixture of the ancient, local languages: Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian, and the official Latin (the language of Rome). It formed for centuries a language continuum, spread across the Balkans. After the arrival of Slavic people in the region ( V-VII cent.), many of the indigenous people were assimilated while others were obliged to move and disperse, losing in that way the homogeneity and the previous contacts between them. As a result, the formation of the four languages, that nowadays constitute the Eastern branch of the Romance Languages family, took place.

North-Danubian
Romanian, including the South-Danubian Vlach language in Serbia and Bulgaria; Romanian is often called Daco-Romanian to distinguish it from the South-Danubian languages

South-Danubian languages
Aromanian
Megleno-Romanian
Istro-Romanian (debatable or contested; possibly North-Danubian)"

[Cumansky]

Petrovic, Matejce Kumanovo
Petrovic, Rudinje Pirot
Radevic-Djordjevic, Matejce Kumanovo
Golubovic, Zaskovci Pirot
Manojlovic-Petrovic, Berane 1859

[MiloshN]

I sent this guy a message asking about his origins. Hope he will reply. But Petrovic are from Vasejovici according to WIKI.

Do you know what YDNA haplogroup Vasojevici have tested for ?


I am from Gash I gurit and maternal tribe is from Kuqi. Vasojevici might be related to Kuqi ?

Vasojevići are EV13 too. But they don't have close any branche in Europ. Especially on Balkan. You are Gashi Ev13?

[Albobalboa]

Vlachs will only peak when they realize their true origin as paleo-balkan, and search for the remaining non fully-hellenized/slavized/latinized language that remains, which is Albanian. Hate it all you want, we all know that the idea behind finding a "root" of an ethnos is to go as far back as history tells the story for the proto-identity. We know Albanians are the remnants of those ancient tribes.

DNA tests are causing a massive identity complex amongst some south slavs, they won't be able to resist it in the long-term. If Albanian lands weren't unanimously agreed to be shitholes, Albanization would be rapid. Some, like Gedza, have already lost their minds.

I like to throw some fuel to the flames yup. Keep it coming.

[Dukagjini]

I get some Montenegrin and Serbian matches as well. I think in my region in MNE and other Malesors, mixed with slavs. I can also see it in the phenotype. We also use slavic words like slika, stolic, etc.. Don't know how common this was with Kosovo Albanians, or other Albanian regions.

[North Sea]

Vasojevići are EV13 too. But they don't have close any branche in Europ. Especially on Balkan. You are Gashi Ev13?

No , I am j2b2 l283 ph1751 .. Gash i gurit .. but my mother is from Kuqi and Kuqi claim lineage from Berisha and are Berisha e Kuqe .. both tested for Ev13 but not sure about their tmcra . I might test my maternal side Kuqi . They are from Prekaz in Kosovo . Whole Prekaz is from Kuqi.

[North Sea]

I get some Montenegrin and Serbian matches as well. I think in my region in MNE and other Malesors, mixed with slavs. I can also see it in the phenotype. We also use slavic words like slika, stolic, etc.. Don't know how common this was with Kosovo Albanians, or other Albanian regions.

All Albanians have slavic loan words

We are all Malesors in origin and I dont see how we all mixed heavily with Slavs. Many of us barely even get East Europe, ... its more to do with the individual person .. saw some Albos from Montenegro who did not get East Europe while some do . Its more of an individual thing in all areas and we all lived around slavs.

[North Sea]

I get some Montenegrin and Serbian matches as well. I think in my region in MNE and other Malesors, mixed with slavs. I can also see it in the phenotype. We also use slavic words like slika, stolic, etc.. Don't know how common this was with Kosovo Albanians, or other Albanian regions.

All Albanians have slavic loan words

We are all Malesors in origin and I dont see how we all mixed heavily with Slavs. Many of us barely even get East Europe, ... its more to do with the individual person .. saw some Albos from Montenegro who did not get East Europe while some do . Its more of an individual thing in all areas and we all lived around slavs.

[Pribislav]

All Albanians have slavic loan words

We are all Malesors in origin and I dont see how we all mixed heavily with Slavs. Many of us barely even get East Europe, ... its more to do with the individual person .. saw some Albos from Montenegro who did not get East Europe while some do . Its more of an individual thing in all areas and we all lived around slavs.

Albanian recorder by East European score from what I have seen is Dema from Gnjilane (J2b1-M205). His ancestors are recorded as Arnautaši.

[Dukagjini]

All Albanians have slavic loan words

We are all Malesors in origin and I dont see how we all mixed heavily with Slavs. Many of us barely even get East Europe, ... its more to do with the individual person .. saw some Albos from Montenegro who did not get East Europe while some do . Its more of an individual thing in all areas and we all lived around slavs.

I wouldn't say heavily mixed with slavs, but it's still there. It is individual but, I think it can be regional as well. I haven't really seen much Malesor autosomal DNA, but what from what I can tell from the few results I've seen, it's pretty Albanian.

[North Sea]

Albanian recorder by East European score from what I have seen is Dema from Gnjilane (J2b1-M205). His ancestors are recorded as Arnautaši.

He got 20 % East Europe on MyOrigins . and he was a Kosovar . Same thing for another guy who was a Kosovar also scored like 9 % East Europe and 9 % british isles ... both slavic dna possibly .., also a Kosovar. So not sure why this guy thinks albos from Montenegro are more mixed with Slavs. It is more of an individual thing , This is the highest you can see an Albanian score East Europe or Slavic and 23andme usually gives much less. Serbs in general are more Balkan .


Its possible Albanians took Slavic brides and the genes eventually got dilluted because most Albanians I have seen dont get that high East Europe.

[HungryLion]

Vlachs will only peak when they realize their true origin as paleo-balkan, and search for the remaining non fully-hellenized/slavized/latinized language that remains, which is Albanian. Hate it all you want, we all know that the idea behind finding a "root" of an ethnos is to go as far back as history tells the story for the proto-identity. We know Albanians are the remnants of those ancient tribes.

DNA tests are causing a massive identity complex amongst some south slavs, they won't be able to resist it in the long-term. If Albanian lands weren't unanimously agreed to be shitholes, Albanization would be rapid. Some, like Gedza, have already lost their minds.

I like to throw some fuel to the flames yup. Keep it coming.

what are you talking about? only Albanians have the right to the cultural heritage of the paleo balkans people?
why there was no resistance against Slavs if homogeneous Albanians lived there?Such a thing is crazy.
Prior to the breakthrough of R1b (BY611), I2a people lived here, Is it necessary for me to claim that the whole Balkan is serbian land?It's insane...

[HungryLion]

He got 20 % East Europe on MyOrigins . and he was a Kosovar . Same thing for another guy who was a Kosovar also scored like 9 % East Europe and 9 % british isles ... both slavic dna possibly .., also a Kosovar. So not sure why this guy thinks albos from Montenegro are more mixed with Slavs. It is more of an individual thing , This is the highest you can see an Albanian score East Europe or Slavic and 23andme usually gives much less. Serbs in general are more Balkan .


Its possible Albanians took Slavic brides and the genes eventually got dilluted because most Albanians I have seen dont get that high East Europe.

Some Serb are 50% Balkan and 50% Slavic..Some more slavic etc..

[Pribislav]

He got 20 % East Europe on MyOrigins . and he was a Kosovar . Same thing for another guy who was a Kosovar also scored like 9 % East Europe and 9 % british isles ... both slavic dna possibly .., also a Kosovar. So not sure why this guy thinks albos from Montenegro are more mixed with Slavs. It is more of an individual thing , This is the highest you can see an Albanian score East Europe or Slavic and 23andme usually gives much less. Serbs in general are more Balkan .


Its possible Albanians took Slavic brides and the genes eventually got dilluted because most Albanians I have seen dont get that high East Europe.

Malisori have Serbian/Slavic input, due to autosomal mixing with Serbs from Montenegro.

Muslim Gheg beys somethimes were kidnapped Slavic women.

Dema's ancestors are albanized Serbs.
Dema claim Kriči Vlach paternal origin. But among Kriči Serbian Slavic names as Radovan and Jaroslav are recorded in 15th century. Dema's ancestors became part of Serbian ethnos few centuries before albanization and in the moment of albanization they were Serbian speakers and regular Serbs in every sense.
Dema understand Serbian, and can speak brocken Serbian.

[Dukagjini]

He got 20 % East Europe on MyOrigins . and he was a Kosovar . Same thing for another guy who was a Kosovar also scored like 9 % East Europe and 9 % british isles ... both slavic dna possibly .., also a Kosovar. So not sure why this guy thinks albos from Montenegro are more mixed with Slavs. It is more of an individual thing , This is the highest you can see an Albanian score East Europe or Slavic and 23andme usually gives much less. Serbs in general are more Balkan .


Its possible Albanians took Slavic brides and the genes eventually got dilluted because most Albanians I have seen dont get that high East Europe.

I never said that Albo's from MNE have more slavic dna, I'm just pointing out that it is there, and it does vary on individual, and specific region. Albanian tribes did exchange brides with slavs, in tribal areas I think, but I think you're right, these genes probably got diluted. Albo's I've seen don't score a lot of EE dna.

[Black Wolf]

Petrović is not from Vasojevići tribe, more chance that he is from Kuči. Vasojevići have E-V13 but very diferent than other people on Balkan...Their E-V13 is about 5000 years difference from first closser relative on Balkan.

Kuči also have some E-V13 I believe. Kuči E-V13 might be different than Vasojevići E-V13 though.

[HungryLion]

Kuči also have some E-V13 I believe. Kuči E-V13 might be different than Vasojevići E-V13 though.

Yes it is...

[Ford]

DNA tests are causing a massive identity complex amongst some south slavs, they won't be able to resist it in the long-term. If Albanian lands weren't unanimously agreed to be shitholes, Albanization would be rapid. Some, like Gedza, have already lost their minds.

What do you mean by this? That Slavs will not be able to resist Albanization due to genetic testing?

[Moje ime]

DNA tests are causing a massive identity complex amongst some south slavs, they won't be able to resist it in the long-term. If Albanian lands weren't unanimously agreed to be shitholes, Albanization would be rapid. Some, like Gedza, have already lost their minds.

I like to throw some fuel to the flames yup. Keep it coming.

You can take Gedza and rest of Bosniaks, they are only one here who have identity crisis. :lol:

[ixulescu]

Ancestors of Romanians migrated from western Thrace to the north in Wallachia in few waves 11th-13th century.
Proto-Albanians and proto-Vlachs lived together as sheperds in the middle age in Thrace and because of that there are some similariries between Albanian and Romanian language.


200 common words between Romanian and Albanian out of 200,000 words in the Romanian language cannot be a proof for this supposed Vlach migration that happened between 11th and 13th century (why then?). No historic chronicle mentions this migration and no material evidence found to this day supports it.

[pulstar]

Vlachs will only peak when they realize their true origin as paleo-balkan, and search for the remaining non fully-hellenized/slavized/latinized language that remains, which is Albanian. Hate it all you want, we all know that the idea behind finding a "root" of an ethnos is to go as far back as history tells the story for the proto-identity. We know Albanians are the remnants of those ancient tribes.

DNA tests are causing a massive identity complex amongst some south slavs, they won't be able to resist it in the long-term. If Albanian lands weren't unanimously agreed to be shitholes, Albanization would be rapid. Some, like Gedza, have already lost their minds.

I like to throw some fuel to the flames yup. Keep it coming.
They will if they are smart enough. South Slavic countries (except Slovenia which is obviously much better and partially Croatia) are, indeed, failed countries but better than just a tribal territories like lands with Albanian majority.

[Skerdilaid]

Medieval connection of Albanians with eastern Balkan is visible except linguistic throught matches with Romanians and Bulgarians in R-Y32147 TMRCA 1100 ybp. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/

Hehe nice try you retarded serv. They most certainly have Albanian origins.

[North Sea]

Vlachs are East Romance speakers.
Proto East Romance language was formed in western Thrace (western Bulgaria and southeastern Serbia).
Ancestors of Megleno-Vlachs and Aromanians migrated from western Thrace to Macedonia, Thessaly and Epirus in 9th/10th century. Ancestors of Romanians migrated from western Thrace to the north in Wallachia in few waves 11th-13th century.
Proto-Albanians and proto-Vlachs lived together as sheperds in the middle age in Thrace and because of that there are some similariries between Albanian and Romanian language.
Proto-Albanians migrated from Thrace to the Mat region in Albania as auxiliary troops of Bulgarian emperor Simeon in late 9th or early 10th century.
Albanian language show some similarities with East Romance languages, not with Romance languages of western Balkan (Dalmatian and Istriot). Dalmatian and Istriot speakers were romanized Illyrians.

Medieval connection of Albanians with eastern Balkan is visible except linguistic throught matches with Romanians and Bulgarians in R-Y32147 TMRCA 1100 ybp. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/

Vlachs were a bunch of latin speakers across the balkans , it didnt have a geographical meaning.

Some Proto Albanians lived in Kosovo more like and on the East probably were bordered by proto Romanians. You also had a bunch of people in Albania that didn't just disappear out of thin air.

All I see on that link is a bunch of different countries and you figured out they all originated in Romania and Bulgaria out of all those countries listed. This is also probably just one clade. Most Albanian clades don't have an East Balkan origin nor does the Albanian language. We already have 3 typical Albanian markers found in West Balkans. There is no reason to not asume we inhabited the same areas since the Bronze Age unless you're some Serb. The Ilyrians nor the Thracians didn't disappear outnof thin air . A language doesnt represent the whole origin of people either . Albanians probably have both Thracian and Ilyrian blood. Your attempt at linking Albanians with Thracians is merely political as if all the Ilyrians in Albania and Kosovo disappeared. And as if such things can be used in politics when your people were recorded living in the caucasus . and arriving into the Balkans.

Tell us more how Serbs are native to Balkans because they carry I2a1b found in rest of Europe but not Balkans .

You're just some low iq digit troll who plays nice boy on anthrogenica but here you come to troll, amazing what split personalities you got.




Its obvious that people like Karadorde and Petrovic family were mixed with Albanians. There are even sources that claim he had some Albanian origin. :lol:

[Ayetooey]

Rumours of Karađorđe having some Serbanised shiptar surname were pretty much put to rest when it was confirmed he was I2a1b; surprised people still spout this nonsense.

[Pribislav]

Vlachs were a bunch of latin speakers across the balkans , it didnt have a geographical meaning.

Some Proto Albanians lived in Kosovo more like and on the East probably were bordered by proto Romanians. You also had a bunch of people in Albania that didn't just disappear out of thin air.

All I see on that link is a bunch of different countries and you figured out they all originated in Romania and Bulgaria out of all those countries listed. This is also probably just one clade. Most Albanian clades don't have an East Balkan origin nor does the Albanian language. We already have 3 typical Albanian markers found in West Balkans. There is no reason to not asume we inhabited the same areas since the Bronze Age unless you're some Serb. The Ilyrians nor the Thracians didn't disappear outnof thin air . A language doesnt represent the whole origin of people either . Albanians probably have both Thracian and Ilyrian blood. Your attempt at linking Albanians with Thracians is merely political as if all the Ilyrians in Albania and Kosovo disappeared. And as if such things can be used in politics when your people were recorded living in the caucasus . and arriving into the Balkans.

Tell us more how Serbs are native to Balkans because they carry I2a1b found in rest of Europe but not Balkans .

You're just some low iq digit troll who plays nice boy on anthrogenica but here you come to troll, amazing what split personalities you got.




Its obvious that people like Karadorde and Petrovic family were mixed with Albanians. There are even sources that claim he had some Albanian origin. :lol:

Bunch of mythomania and nice wishes...

Albanian language have some similarities with Romanian language (even without borrowed Slavic in Turkish words in both), not with Dalmatian language. Dalmatia was language of romanized Illyrians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P8cjoJPkKg

If Albanian language is of western Balkan origin than would be related with Dalmatian and that is not case.

Dalmatian language is dead officially since 1898 when last speaker Tuone Udaina died.
Traces of Dalmatian language still exist in local speech of coastal and islander Slavic speaking Dalmatians, because Latin Dalmatians which lived on the coast in middle age were slavized during the middle age.
Pre-Slavic population of Kosovo was slavized in the middle age and their dna live in Kosovo Serbs and in Vojvodinian Serbs who are settlers from Kosovo in late 17th century (not all but one part). Albanian mass colonization of Kosovo started in late 17th century after Serbian mjgrations to Pannonia. Albanians from northern Albanian arrived to Kosovo on Ottoman iniciative, often against own will (many Albanians were forced by Ottomans to came in Kosovo and Sandžak).

[MagnusDark]

Rumours of Karađorđe having some Serbanised shiptar surname were pretty much put to rest when it was confirmed he was I2a1b; surprised people still spout this nonsense.

To be fair that doesn’t really mean much. Of course I2a1b arrived with the Sklavenoi. However a lot can happen in 1500 years. Back and forth assimilation is not unheard of. Just like there are Slavic clades that formed under Illyrian haplogroups(E-V13/J2b/R1b), there are yet undiscovered Albanian, Greek etc clades of typical Slavic haplogroups. Has this Kardorde done a full resolution test?

There is already a somewhat Greek specific I2a1b branch, that splits I2a1b off from the rest of the typically Slavic derived I2a1b branches. Still no South Slavs in A2512 branch or however it’s labeled. So without full resolution testing all this boasting of who is what when where and why is literally meaningless. Most people have done the bare minimum of STR testing.

Another example, I am Albanian and R1a-L1029*. The typical retort from the likes of forum users here with a pea brained understanding of genetics would just say Slavic. L1029 may well be Proto-Slavic sure. But unlike other L1029, I am negative downstream for all clades joining Slavs within the last 2000 years. I went for a full genome test with a private company. This discovered my new founder clade which will form a new branch downstream of “Proto-Slavic” L1029. So far all my matches in my clade are entirely Albanian. Nearly 5 so far in our project and 2 unnamed(1 Gheg/1 Tosk) from the Boattini study. The founder effect within Albanians is 1200 years which indicates the Albanian forefather lived around then. So yes most likely arrived with Proto Slavic tribes during the migration but assimilated early on and participated in Albanian ethnogenesis.

So unless there’s a full resolution test you can’t dish out some broad generalizations. Besides, serious geneticists don’t use haplogroups for little more than understanding migrations and coding proteins. Women don’t have them and this doesn’t disqualify their paternal ancestry. Population genetics relies on autosomal dna to derive ancestry. And even in that category, Albanians have more native paleobalkan dna. Slavs most probably are related to a Dacians in some way. That’s probably it

[MagnusDark]

Bunch of mythomania and nice wishes...

Albanian language have some similarities with Romanian language (even without borrowed Slavic in Turkish words in both), not with Dalmatian language. Dalmatia was language of romanized Illyrians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P8cjoJPkKg

If Albanian language is of western Balkan origin than would be related with Dalmatian and that is not case.

Dalmatian language is dead officially since 1898 when last speaker Tuone Udaina died.
Traces of Dalmatian language still exist in local speech of coastal and islander Slavic speaking Dalmatians, because Latin Dalmatians which lived on the coast in middle age were slavized during the middle age.
Pre-Slavic population of Kosovo was slavized in the middle age and their dna live in Kosovo Serbs and in Vojvodinian Serbs who are settlers from Kosovo in late 17th century (not all but one part). Albanian mass colonization of Kosovo started in late 17th century after Serbian mjgrations to Pannonia. Albanians from northern Albanian arrived to Kosovo on Ottoman iniciative, often against own will (many Albanians were forced by Ottomans to came in Kosovo and Sandžak).

Ancestors of Romanians migrated from further south in the Balkans. Indicating they were neighbors in the West Balkans explaining the shared words. Shit for brains. No one pushes the Thracian shit but you and other Serb. You know well why too. Admitting Albanians ancestors dominated the western Balkans forces you to relinquish your propaganda machines and accept the fact that you hate.

Truth is Ancient DNA has found the majority of Albanian lineages descended from West Balkan haplogroups. Ergo Illyrians douch nugget.

[HungryLion]

Karađorđe have I2a1b din north clade which is very tipical for Serb, he have many matches among Serbs.
Also Ražnatović family have matches among Belarusian and Ukrainians..

[MagnusDark]

Karađorđe have I2a1b din north clade which is very tipical for Serb, he have many matches among Serbs.
Also Ražnatović family have matches among Belarusian and Ukrainians..

In that case he is Serb. It’s important to look at the distance with matches, whether or not theirs lesser known founder effects etc. for instance Slavic clades that entered Germany in the early Middle Ages developed founder effect and spread via assimilation. So some clades of I2a1b/R1a in Germans may have been German for a millennium. Context is everything.

[HungryLion]

In that case he is Serb. It’s important to look at the distance with matches, whether or not theirs lesser known founder effects etc. for instance Slavic clades that entered Germany in the early Middle Ages developed founder effect and spread via assimilation. So some clades of I2a1b/R1a in Germans may have been German for a millennium. Context is everything.

I know, and I agree ...I am sayin the same for some E-V13 among the Serbs, they are probably asimilated in deep past and it's normal that they feel very Serbian . Think the same in other case, time context is very important like you said.

[North Sea]

I am not saying Karadorde was Albanian paternally but it seems many Serbs are mixed with Albanians distantly , this could of also occurred from other sides.


Raznatovic was a criminal so I would be ashamed to be related to him. But it's possible me and Petrovic family are related even if they are I2a1b.

[HungryLion]

Everyone on Balkan mixed, I think it's from female sides...
And like MagnusDark said, it was in diferent time, and probably was normal thing. I mean I score 1% of Italian on myHeritage , and I don't have anyone who is Italian but it's show up..Or on FTDNA I score some % of Scandinavia.

[HungryLion]

Also there is a story about tači, not sure is that true, that his ancestor was ortodox serb priest and that he convert to islam and marige Albanian woman...I think he is E1b, and it does not matter, thing which make the story probably fake is that his E1b clade don't have mathes among the Serbs.
I am just giving example, I don't know about his family geneology.

For example if some Croatian get E-V13 which relate from Vasojevići it also can show serbian origin, no matter if this is not PH908. There is examples from both sides.

[Ayetooey]

To be fair that doesn’t really mean much. Of course I2a1b arrived with the Sklavenoi. However a lot can happen in 1500 years. Back and forth assimilation is not unheard of. Just like there are Slavic clades that formed under Illyrian haplogroups(E-V13/J2b/R1b), there are yet undiscovered Albanian, Greek etc clades of typical Slavic haplogroups. Has this Kardorde done a full resolution test?

There is already a somewhat Greek specific I2a1b branch, that splits I2a1b off from the rest of the typically Slavic derived I2a1b branches. Still no South Slavs in A2512 branch or however it’s labeled. So without full resolution testing all this boasting of who is what when where and why is literally meaningless. Most people have done the bare minimum of STR testing.

Another example, I am Albanian and R1a-L1029*. The typical retort from the likes of forum users here with a pea brained understanding of genetics would just say Slavic. L1029 may well be Proto-Slavic sure. But unlike other L1029, I am negative downstream for all clades joining Slavs within the last 2000 years. I went for a full genome test with a private company. This discovered my new founder clade which will form a new branch downstream of “Proto-Slavic” L1029. So far all my matches in my clade are entirely Albanian. Nearly 5 so far in our project and 2 unnamed(1 Gheg/1 Tosk) from the Boattini study. The founder effect within Albanians is 1200 years which indicates the Albanian forefather lived around then. So yes most likely arrived with Proto Slavic tribes during the migration but assimilated early on and participated in Albanian ethnogenesis.

So unless there’s a full resolution test you can’t dish out some broad generalizations. Besides, serious geneticists don’t use haplogroups for little more than understanding migrations and coding proteins. Women don’t have them and this doesn’t disqualify their paternal ancestry. Population genetics relies on autosomal dna to derive ancestry. And even in that category, Albanians have more native paleobalkan dna. Slavs most probably are related to a Dacians in some way. That’s probably it

Everything you say is true. But as far as I know the rumour was always that his paternal ancestor was from some catholic Malesor clan, and we know now he’s i2 din north with all Serb matches. It’s ph908 that’s probably the most split off i2a branch by the way. Clades of din north exist in all north Slavs plus Greeks Bulgarians etc, where as ph908 is basically confined to Serb/Croats/Bosnians only, with some uncommon exceptions.

[MagnusDark]

Everything you say is true. But as far as I know the rumour was always that his paternal ancestor was from some catholic Malesor clan, and we know now he’s i2 din north with all Serb matches. It’s ph908 that’s probably the most split off i2a branch by the way. Clades of din north exist in all north Slavs plus Greeks Bulgarians etc, where as ph908 is basically confined to Serb/Croats/Bosnians only, with some uncommon exceptions.

Perhaps it was. What is the timetable for the rumor? I honestly don't know. If all his recent historical matches are Serbs yea I agree. Are there any Albanian matches like 500 plus years or more? In general though I agree, PH908 is almost a surefire indication of Serbian ancestry, at least in Greeks/Albanians. I did read somewhere that Alot of Albanian and Greek I2-Din is shared with a Romanian branch which is the Northern Dinaric cluster if I am not mistaken. I think Proto-Slavs were just northern Cousins of Dacians, whom basically descended south once the Romans became a greater threat. Before Dacians are extinguished and dominated by Romans, Proto-Slavs go relatively unmentioned. The Neuri for instance are believed to be Proto-Slavs, and they also had many similarities in customs/rites to Dacians. The Wolf holds similar importance, and shamanstic rituals in wolfskins were common.

For me I think of it like a Gheg/Tosk Dichotomy(albeit more distant than Ghegs/Tosks). Dacians functioning as the Southern group, whilst Proto-Slavs were the northen less admixed cousins. Northern/Southern Italians for example. Pretty different on average yet still related. We already know Proto-Dacians/Proto-Thracians were some variety of R1a/I2a(mostly extinct) distantly related to Proto-Slavic(I2a/R1a) which repopulated with lineages further north than their distant southern kin. I think if you look at I2-Din/R1a(some clades in both Z280/M458) the gap between formation and MRCA is significant. Suggesting these groups were near extinguished sometime between the Iron/Early Middle Ages, with their survivors demographically booming with the Slavic expansion.

I read some where that new DNA extraction methods are being researched. One method hopes to be able to extract DNA from problematic sources. So hopefully we will receive a wealth of knowledge. Granted its a ways away. Full Genomes testing is becoming cheaper though. This will only help to make sense of this picture.

[North Sea]

Perhaps it was. What is the timetable for the rumor? I honestly don't know. If all his recent historical matches are Serbs yea I agree. Are there any Albanian matches like 500 plus years or more? In general though I agree, PH908 is almost a surefire indication of Serbian ancestry, at least in Greeks/Albanians. I did read somewhere that Alot of Albanian and Greek I2-Din is shared with a Romanian branch which is the Northern Dinaric cluster if I am not mistaken. I think Proto-Slavs were just northern Cousins of Dacians, whom basically descended south once the Romans became a greater threat. Before Dacians are extinguished and dominated by Romans, Proto-Slavs go relatively unmentioned. The Neuri for instance are believed to be Proto-Slavs, and they also had many similarities in customs/rites to Dacians. The Wolf holds similar importance, and shamanstic rituals in wolfskins were common.

For me I think of it like a Gheg/Tosk Dichotomy(albeit more distant than Ghegs/Tosks). Dacians functioning as the Southern group, whilst Proto-Slavs were the northen less admixed cousins. Northern/Southern Italians for example. Pretty different on average yet still related. We already know Proto-Dacians/Proto-Thracians were some variety of R1a/I2a(mostly extinct) distantly related to Proto-Slavic(I2a/R1a) which repopulated with lineages further north than their distant southern kin. I think if you look at I2-Din/R1a(some clades in both Z280/M458) the gap between formation and MRCA is significant. Suggesting these groups were near extinguished sometime between the Iron/Early Middle Ages, with their survivors demographically booming with the Slavic expansion.

I read some where that new DNA extraction methods are being researched. One method hopes to be able to extract DNA from problematic sources. So hopefully we will receive a wealth of knowledge. Granted its a ways away. Full Genomes testing is becoming cheaper though. This will only help to make sense of this picture.


IMO, Karadorde had some Albanian origin for sure.

[Ayetooey]

Perhaps it was. What is the timetable for the rumor? I honestly don't know. If all his recent historical matches are Serbs yea I agree. Are there any Albanian matches like 500 plus years or more? In general though I agree, PH908 is almost a surefire indication of Serbian ancestry, at least in Greeks/Albanians. I did read somewhere that Alot of Albanian and Greek I2-Din is shared with a Romanian branch which is the Northern Dinaric cluster if I am not mistaken. I think Proto-Slavs were just northern Cousins of Dacians, whom basically descended south once the Romans became a greater threat. Before Dacians are extinguished and dominated by Romans, Proto-Slavs go relatively unmentioned. The Neuri for instance are believed to be Proto-Slavs, and they also had many similarities in customs/rites to Dacians. The Wolf holds similar importance, and shamanstic rituals in wolfskins were common.

For me I think of it like a Gheg/Tosk Dichotomy(albeit more distant than Ghegs/Tosks). Dacians functioning as the Southern group, whilst Proto-Slavs were the northen less admixed cousins. Northern/Southern Italians for example. Pretty different on average yet still related. We already know Proto-Dacians/Proto-Thracians were some variety of R1a/I2a(mostly extinct) distantly related to Proto-Slavic(I2a/R1a) which repopulated with lineages further north than their distant southern kin. I think if you look at I2-Din/R1a(some clades in both Z280/M458) the gap between formation and MRCA is significant. Suggesting these groups were near extinguished sometime between the Iron/Early Middle Ages, with their survivors demographically booming with the Slavic expansion.

I read some where that new DNA extraction methods are being researched. One method hopes to be able to extract DNA from problematic sources. So hopefully we will receive a wealth of knowledge. Granted its a ways away. Full Genomes testing is becoming cheaper though. This will only help to make sense of this picture.

In terms of Karađorđe, it was just internet rumors in the past that he was some slavicised Albanian, but there's no evidence of it really, he was from Šumadija and had Vasojevići ancestry; he might of had some Albanian maternal ancestors somewhere but it doesn't mean much since a lot of Serbs do at some point in history, same with Albanians.

I2/R1a in the Balkans is interesting; these are both proclaimed to be "Slavic" Y dna, and in the context of the Balkans yes they are, and overwhelmingly would of come with the Sclaveni; but too much credit is given to the proto slavs, they appeared relatively late as a people with there ethnogenesis only taking place in the 2nd century AD. That means all "slavic" I2a/R1a belonged to some other culture before this ethnogenesis. Personally I believe that I2a1b for example was part of the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, and I-PH908 later on developing within Dacia, before a subgroup of I-PH908 being slavicised. I2a1b-Din North was likely part of some Eastern Germanic/baltic tribes before being slavicised. Some clades of din north were likely part of the Antes also. Either way, with thousands of years of neolithic and indo european cultures pre-dating the slavs, I find it hard to believe these Y dna's were not part of something prior to slavicisation.

A dacian/slavic dichotomy is certainly a legitamte one. The Dacians bordered Slavs and the pre slavic peoples of Eastern Europe, and Dacian lands included a lot of now "slavic lands", large parts of Ukraine were Dacian, specifically the Carpathian mountains often seen as a very slavic region in modern times. Dacia is also said to of stretched from the Balkan mountains to Bohemia under King Burebista, and later on we know Dacia stretched as North as Vistula in Southern Poland, with topynoyms still existing in that area. The same can be said for R1a, it is only slavic in the context of these invasions; not to mention the fact there is certainly R1a in the balkans from PIE, predating any middle age invasions.

I don't know much about I2 in Albanians; I'd guess north Albanians and Malesors would be ph908 carriers, where as Tosks probably share dinaric north clades with mainland Greeks.

[MagnusDark]

In terms of Karađorđe, it was just internet rumors in the past that he was some slavicised Albanian, but there's no evidence of it really, he was from Šumadija and had Vasojevići ancestry; he might of had some Albanian maternal ancestors somewhere but it doesn't mean much since a lot of Serbs do at some point in history, same with Albanians.

I2/R1a in the Balkans is interesting; these are both proclaimed to be "Slavic" Y dna, and in the context of the Balkans yes they are, and overwhelmingly would of come with the Sclaveni; but too much credit is given to the proto slavs, they appeared relatively late as a people with there ethnogenesis only taking place in the 2nd century AD. That means all "slavic" I2a/R1a belonged to some other culture before this ethnogenesis. Personally I believe that I2a1b for example was part of the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, and I-PH908 later on developing within Dacia, before a subgroup of I-PH908 being slavicised. I2a1b-Din North was likely part of some Eastern Germanic/baltic tribes before being slavicised. Some clades of din north were likely part of the Antes also. Either way, with thousands of years of neolithic and indo european cultures pre-dating the slavs, I find it hard to believe these Y dna's were not part of something prior to slavicisation.

A dacian/slavic dichotomy is certainly a legitamte one. The Dacians bordered Slavs and the pre slavic peoples of Eastern Europe, and Dacian lands included a lot of now "slavic lands", large parts of Ukraine were Dacian, specifically the Carpathian mountains often seen as a very slavic region in modern times. Dacia is also said to of stretched from the Balkan mountains to Bohemia under King Burebista, and later on we know Dacia stretched as North as Vistula in Southern Poland, with topynoyms still existing in that area. The same can be said for R1a, it is only slavic in the context of these invasions; not to mention the fact there is certainly R1a in the balkans from PIE, predating any middle age invasions.

I don't know much about I2 in Albanians; I'd guess north Albanians and Malesors would be ph908 carriers, where as Tosks probably share dinaric north clades with mainland Greeks.

Perhaps. Maybe Sklaveni was just a Byzantine manufactured label for all the pagan tribes on the Danube Frontier. Which may have well been a mix of Dacians, Scythians, Germanics etc. After all its believed Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Dacian, and Proto-Thracian were all related. So Sklaveni could either be the survivors of Dacian cultures mixed with other pagan tribes, or distantly related Northern kin that only migrated south in the middle ages. Anything is possible. Lingustics hold that every modern people must have an ancestor in the ancient world.

It is true that much of the areas north of the Danube were undocumented or grouped with similarly documented southern tribes. For all we know Proto-Slavs are closer to Proto-Thracian/Proto-Dacians than to actual Dacians and Thracians that developed separately for some time before the migration period. Take Basques for instance, they don't speak an Indo-European language and are predominantly Indo-European R1b(if im not mistaken). So there was a near complete replacement of the line. To explain this some posit only certain R1b clades are indo european and that Basque R1b came from the Caucasus and either dominated them, or if it was indo european had a mutual settling agreement with the natives. Eventually through natural selection replacing the YDNA. How can we be sure this didn't happen elsewhere? People just like to paint things in a clean pretty picture with linear progression. The truth is history was chaotic. Only more testing, remains discoveries an archaeology will prove/disprove writings of the past.

I do agree that much of what people say on these forums including us is pseudo-science. Some of it makes sense, some doesn't but none of it is proven. People trust ancient writers like its gospel truth which can be dangerous. Coupled with the fact that in the modern technological age, the average westerner can barely distinguish the Balkans and just call everyone Yugoslavians. Also there is evidence of a Bronze Age "Globalization" that renders classifying ethnicity by material culture rather pointless, just as much as a Japanese car and American dress and language doesn't make me descended from there or here.

[MagnusDark]

IMO, Karadorde had some Albanian origin for sure.

Maternally I imagine so its possible. Paternally however if all his closest matches are Serbs, and he is PH908 which is typically Serbian, than any Albanian ancestry would likely be derived from the maternal side.

[MagnusDark]

Also there is a story about tači, not sure is that true, that his ancestor was ortodox serb priest and that he convert to islam and marige Albanian woman...I think he is E1b, and it does not matter, thing which make the story probably fake is that his E1b clade don't have mathes among the Serbs.
I am just giving example, I don't know about his family geneology.

For example if some Croatian get E-V13 which relate from Vasojevići it also can show serbian origin, no matter if this is not PH908. There is examples from both sides.

Yea. I am pretty sure Thaci belongs to Albanian clades of E-V13 though. So, I imagine thats just a rumor in his case. I thought Vasojevici claimed Albanian descent? I don't know their clade but I assume it depends on each individual cases matches, their distance with both Albanians and Serbs etc. Think about how many sons left and right were migrating all over the Balkans in the middle ages. I don't imagine every Vasojevici case will be the same as far as recent ancestry.

[North Sea]

Maternally I imagine so its possible. Paternally however if all his closest matches are Serbs, and he is PH908 which is typically Serbian, than any Albanian ancestry would likely be derived from the maternal side.

Yeah, maybe also not maternally but from other sides other than paternal side. Everything is possible but Vasojevic were for sure mixed with Albos and thats where Petrovic family claim ancestry from. . Besides I2a1b isn't just a Serbian haplogroup but Serbs claim everything, including Paleo Balkan cultural heritage. Same way they claim all Slavic toponyms in Balkans are Serbian derived when in fact many of them are actually Bulgarian. Having a Slavic marker doesn't mean it's from Serbs. A lot of Slavic haplogroups among Albanians literally have nothing to do with Serbs.

I2a1b is also found among Albos. Its possible I2a1b Albanians could of been Serbianised too. Haplogroup doesn't define your ethnicity. A Serb can have an Albanian haplogroup and still be genetically a Serb and vice versa. Autosomal is more important for overall genetic make up. Though I happen to be both.


I am still sceptical that the person they tested is directly related to Karadorde also. So I am not ruling out an Albanian paternal origin just yet. Nor have I looked at their matches or TMCRA so I cannot judge.


Macure also have an Albanan origin. They carry an I1 marker that is probably Goth in origin. And is also found in Albos. I believe there were some Shkrel that tested for this and also some Gashi on 23andme who might be from same tribe as me. Probably an asimilated case. But he was also from Drenica.


I alao match Macure on autosomal on FTDNA. They were probably Goths that got asimilated into some Albanian/Vlach ethnos around Montenegro and later Serbianised.


I seem to have some distant Goth origin for sure based on my matches and not so much Slavic. I mean me and this guy literally share Swedish and German matches and a lot of Albanians. Though I believe the genes have been dilluted over a period of thousand years or more ++

That's how genetics work.

[Ford]

So did this entire discussion stem from the fact that you match a Petrović from Montenegro?

[Pribislav]

Yeah, maybe also not maternally but from other sides other than paternal side. Everything is possible but Vasojevic were for sure mixed with Albos and thats where Petrovic family claim ancestry from. . Besides I2a1b isn't just a Serbian haplogroup but Serbs claim everything, including Paleo Balkan cultural heritage. Same way they claim all Slavic toponyms in Balkans are Serbian derived when in fact many of them are actually Bulgarian. Having a Slavic marker doesn't mean it's from Serbs. A lot of Slavic haplogroups among Albanians literally have nothing to do with Serbs.

I2a1b is also found among Albos. Its possible I2a1b Albanians could of been Serbianised too. Haplogroup doesn't define your ethnicity. A Serb can have an Albanian haplogroup and still be genetically a Serb and vice versa. Autosomal is more important for overall genetic make up. Though I happen to be both.


I am still sceptical that the person they tested is directly related to Karadorde also. So I am not ruling out an Albanian paternal origin just yet. Nor have I looked at their matches or TMCRA so I cannot judge.


Macure also have an Albanan origin. They carry an I1 marker that is probably Goth in origin. And is also found in Albos. I believe there were some Shkrel that tested for this and also some Gashi on 23andme who might be from same tribe as me. Probably an asimilated case. But he was also from Drenica.


I alao match Macure on autosomal on FTDNA. They were probably Goths that got asimilated into some Albanian/Vlach ethnos around Montenegro and later Serbianised.


I seem to have some distant Goth origin for sure based on my matches and not so much Slavic. I mean me and this guy literally share Swedish and German matches and a lot of Albanians. Though I believe the genes have been dilluted over a period of thousand years or more ++

That's how genetics work.

Macure have nothing to do with Albanians.

K13 Eurogenes of Serb with surname Macura.

1 Baltic 28.48
2 North_Atlantic 28
3 West_Med 15.92
4 East_Med 15.15
5 West_Asian 8.36
6 South_Asian 1.57
7 Siberian 1.45
8 Red_Sea 0.91
9 East_Asian 0.16

His position on the map (Macura_Serb_HR) https://www.dropbox.com/s/qk9cplbzlj3ixay/K13Dick.png

Look at how far away from Albanian cluster is he! He is close to Serbs Moje_Ime, Serb_Dalmatia and ikol_sample.

[Dick]

:rotfl:

[CommonSense]

So did this entire discussion stem from the fact that you match a Petrović from Montenegro?

There are 2,758 people in Montenegro with the surname Petrović. In Serbia there are many, many more. Why would anyone in their right mind assume somebody with that surname is related to the famous Montenegrin dynasty?

https://forebears.io/sh/surnames/petrovi%C4%87

[Ayetooey]

Have we ruled out the OP hasn't matched with Miroljub Petrović?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mm3k44EOx7E/WlIBaO7LveI/AAAAAAAAaa0/e_dFsLUkiDM1BTQbFiuYla1VyNVA7t4XwCLcBGAs/s640/Untitled.jpg

[Ford]

There are 2,758 people in Montenegro with the surname Petrović. In Serbia there are many, many more. Why would anyone in their right mind assume somebody with that surname is related to the famous Montenegrin dynasty?

https://forebears.io/sh/surnames/petrovi%C4%87

Another thing is that the Petrović surname based on that dynasty only lasted one generation. Đorđe's father was called Petar, which became Petrović and then Đorđe's a.k.a. Karađorđe's became Karađorđević.

[Dick]

Another thing is that the Petrović surname based on that dynasty only lasted one generation. Đorđe's father was called Petar, which became Petrović and then Đorđe's a.k.a. Karađorđe's became Karađorđević.

Makes sense. Some families changed surnames frequently for whatever reason. My grandfather changed ours, my dad had two surnames up until he finished high school, to only one. There's also a person with the same surname as mine on Serbian dna project but he is I2 which is cool either way.

[MagnusDark]

Yeah, maybe also not maternally but from other sides other than paternal side. Everything is possible but Vasojevic were for sure mixed with Albos and thats where Petrovic family claim ancestry from. . Besides I2a1b isn't just a Serbian haplogroup but Serbs claim everything, including Paleo Balkan cultural heritage. Same way they claim all Slavic toponyms in Balkans are Serbian derived when in fact many of them are actually Bulgarian. Having a Slavic marker doesn't mean it's from Serbs. A lot of Slavic haplogroups among Albanians literally have nothing to do with Serbs.

I2a1b is also found among Albos. Its possible I2a1b Albanians could of been Serbianised too. Haplogroup doesn't define your ethnicity. A Serb can have an Albanian haplogroup and still be genetically a Serb and vice versa. Autosomal is more important for overall genetic make up. Though I happen to be both.


I am still sceptical that the person they tested is directly related to Karadorde also. So I am not ruling out an Albanian paternal origin just yet. Nor have I looked at their matches or TMCRA so I cannot judge.


Macure also have an Albanan origin. They carry an I1 marker that is probably Goth in origin. And is also found in Albos. I believe there were some Shkrel that tested for this and also some Gashi on 23andme who might be from same tribe as me. Probably an asimilated case. But he was also from Drenica.


I alao match Macure on autosomal on FTDNA. They were probably Goths that got asimilated into some Albanian/Vlach ethnos around Montenegro and later Serbianised.


I seem to have some distant Goth origin for sure based on my matches and not so much Slavic. I mean me and this guy literally share Swedish and German matches and a lot of Albanians. Though I believe the genes have been dilluted over a period of thousand years or more ++

That's how genetics work.

Idk. I mean as far as recent ancestry I’m sure some clades that formed specific to Albanians may yet to be discovered under PH908. However, everyone has a pretty good grasp that if someone is R1b-BY611 it’s almost certain whether historically recent or distant that his ancestor was Albanian. Same with Z284, it’s so restricted to a certain part of Europe it’s almost always going to be because of a Viking. The Z284 in our project is likely due to Varangians or even Goths.

When the clades are more spread out it’s problematic. This doesn’t seem the case with PH908. Like BY611 for Albanian, PH908 is almost always associated with Serbs. Whether Bosnians admit it or not they’re merely Muslim Serbs. Croatians are a separate matter. Andestrally all Proto-Slavs. But the near dominance this clade has in Serbs is a dead giveaway.

Of course this is merely 1 percent of total genome so it means nothing specific to us but more to our earliest ancestor. Autosomal genetics as you mentioned is more important for actual ancestry as we inherit from more than just our fathers. Were it not the case we’d go relatively unchanged with regards to the source population which in the case of my R1a is originally north Asian with the most recent in my founder effect being Albanian and my basal L1029 ancestor being Proto-Slavic. It’s merely a historical record that compiles the story of YOU. An ever evolving tapestry of your story. African I1 can only say they’re ancestor was an Anglo likely descending from a Viking that either fell in love with or raped a slave. Sucks but it’s the truth. He doesn’t become a Viking because the rest of his dna is spear chucking fighter. Lol. Much the same, it’s the inclusion of Slavic YDNa Germanic and others that formed the Albanian ethnogenesis. Otherwise without these components they would still just be Illyrians.

This goes to show cultures and people’s are ever evolving units that never remain the same.

The human stupidity and thoughts of grandeur and superiority however, that sadly doesn’t change. Lol.

[Ford]

There are 2,758 people in Montenegro with the surname Petrović. In Serbia there are many, many more. Why would anyone in their right mind assume somebody with that surname is related to the famous Montenegrin dynasty?

https://forebears.io/sh/surnames/petrovi%C4%87

One more thing; I just read the original post again and the guy isn't even necessarily from Montenegro, just an assumption OP made. So we're basically looking at around the Serbian equivalent of having the surname Brown, for a guy who is probably from Serbia.

[Dick]

Idk. I mean as far as recent ancestry I’m sure some clades that formed specific to Albanians may yet to be discovered under PH908. However, everyone has a pretty good grasp that if someone is R1b-BY611 it’s almost certain whether historically recent or distant that his ancestor was Albanian. Same with Z284, it’s so restricted to a certain part of Europe it’s almost always going to be because of a Viking. The Z284 in our project is likely due to Varangians or even Goths.

When the clades are more spread out it’s problematic. This doesn’t seem the case with PH908. Like BY611 for Albanian, PH908 is almost always associated with Serbs. Whether Bosnians admit it or not they’re merely Muslim Serbs. Croatians are a separate matter. Andestrally all Proto-Slavs. But the near dominance this clade has in Serbs is a dead giveaway.

All PH908 came with Slavs no matter if they identify as Serbs or Croats today. they all share the same ancestors.

[MagnusDark]

All PH908 came with Slavs no matter if they identify as Serbs or Croats today. they all share the same ancestors.

Of course. However, most PH908 is due to founder effects and bottlenecks in South Slavs and they’re mostly Serbian dominant. Serbs have other I2-Din clades sure, PH908 is overwhelmingly dominant though. That’s why I mentioned at least in the southern Balkans(Greeks/Albanian) that it’s probably mostly from Serbs. Of course we can’t disqualify the Bulgarian presence. But then again I don’t know what I2 clades dominate for them.

[Ayetooey]

Of course. However, most PH908 is due to founder effects and bottlenecks in South Slavs and they’re mostly Serbian dominant. Serbs have other I2-Din clades sure, PH908 is overwhelmingly dominant though. That’s why I mentioned at least in the southern Balkans(Greeks/Albanian) that it’s probably mostly from Serbs. Of course we can’t disqualify the Bulgarian presence. But then again I don’t know what I2 clades dominate for them.

Bulgarians are almost entirely Dinaric North, the same with North Macedonians, Greeks etc; on Yfull there's only Serbs and Bosnians who share my clade. I think North Albanians and Montenegrins will be more likely to carry PH908.

[Ayetooey]

It'll be difficult to establish if there's any branches under PH908 that are specifically Albanian (due to a founder effect) due to the nature of politics; people with non traditional Y dnas that don't fit the clan model aren't exactly encouraged to go for big Y in these Y dna projects.

[Dick]

Bulgarians are almost entirely Dinaric North, the same with North Macedonians, Greeks etc; on Yfull there's only Serbs and Bosnians who share my clade. I think North Albanians and Montenegrins will be more likely to carry PH908.

There was an Albanian member from Skadar here that's PH908.

[Ayetooey]

There was an Albanian member from Skadar here that's PH908.

Doesn't surprise me with the medieval Serb influence in that area; Albanians here have often cited there being a lot of "converts" in that region also. Probably the same in Montenegro due to clan mixing. I'd bet Tosks share Din-North clades with North Greeks and Bulgarians though.

[Ford]

Doesn't surprise me with the medieval Serb influence in that area; Albanians here have often cited there being a lot of "converts" in that region also. Probably the same in Montenegro due to clan mixing. I'd bet Tosks share Din-North clades with North Greeks and Bulgarians though.

Dunno if this means anything, but I have a DNA match whose oldest known ancestor (born in 17th century) was a Serb Hajduk from northern Albania (near city of Skadar) and her father's YDNA is N-P189.2.

[hush2019]

His Puntdnal K13, very different from mine , He is clearly a South Slav which is basically a Balkan - Slavic mix










Population (source)Distance

1 Serbian4.29
2Macedonian5.28
3Bulgarian5.46
4Montenegrin5.48
5Romanian6.06
6Bosnian7.75
7Croatian8.49
8French9.31
9Italian_Bergamo9.33
10Moldavian9.56
11Kosovar9.99
12German_South10.34
13Italian_Tuscan10.61
14Albanian10.82
15Hungarian10.86
16Belgian11.35
17Greek_Thessaly11.59
18Spaniard11.78
19Slovene11.81
20English12.82

Nice is he single?

[Ayetooey]

Dunno if this means anything, but I have a DNA match whose oldest known ancestor (born in 17th century) was a Serb Hajduk from northern Albania (near city of Skadar) and her father's YDNA is N-P189.2.

On Yfull there seems to be a Balkan branch with a Turk at the top (Balkan Turk maybe). Cool Y dna either way, I don't know much about N but I know there's a clade of N only found in the Balkans, mainly in Bosnian and Croatian Serbs.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-P189.2/

[MagnusDark]

Bulgarians are almost entirely Dinaric North, the same with North Macedonians, Greeks etc; on Yfull there's only Serbs and Bosnians who share my clade. I think North Albanians and Montenegrins will be more likely to carry PH908.

Unfortunately the only ones in the project tested up to PH908 positive is Ashkali minority. The rest of Albanian CTS10228 only goes up to Y3120 mostly Southern Albanians where Proto Slavic tribes settled heavily in the Middle Ages. Mainy being romanized by Byzantines and then disseminating into Albanian, Greek, and Vlach cultures with shifting politics and borders. A few Kosovar Albanian samples go up to S17250, which I think splits into both dinaric north and south? There’s no further resolution sadly.

There’s likely other founder effects in Albanians. Aside from mine which seems restricted mostly to Eastern Albania and West Macedonia, there’s others who form their own clusters in the south. However they belong further downstream L1029 likely. I imagine mostly under YP417(common L1029 in Bulgarians and Romanians) and YP263, common in Greek L1029, Bulgarian and Romanian. A few Caucasus samples come under YP263. Maybe some of it was Avars-Slavic?

We even have 2 L260. One of which is from Shkoder. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was from Vraka. The other from Korçë in the south. Majority of R1a/I2a-Din in Albanians is from central to southern Albania where Proto Slavic tribes were more prominent. So I think it mostly arrived with Proto Slavs. Be they descended from Dacians or just related. However founder effects and deep clades I think are more important for ancestry within the last millennium.

Sadly the Balkans is piss poor when it comes to full genome testing. Our project alone only has 636 Albanians. And not everyone has a full resolution test. This is my educated guess based on what data we have. But it could all radically change. Just read the theories about some haplogroups only a few years ago lol.

[Pribislav]

On Yfull there seems to be a Balkan branch with a Turk at the top (Balkan Turk maybe). Cool Y dna either way, I don't know much about N but I know there's a clade of N only found in the Balkans, mainly in Bosnian and Croatian Serbs.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-P189.2/

N-P189.2 came from Old Herzegovinian clan Banjani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjani

Further origin is not so clear yet.
Accordihg to Poreklo this clade probably came with Slavs. This clade is present in Europe very long time.

[Dick]

Nice is he single?

:rotfl:

[Ayetooey]

Unfortunately the only ones in the project tested up to PH908 positive is Ashkali minority. The rest of Albanian CTS10228 only goes up to Y3120 mostly Southern Albanians where Proto Slavic tribes settled heavily in the Middle Ages. Mainy being romanized by Byzantines and then disseminating into Albanian, Greek, and Vlach cultures with shifting politics and borders. A few Kosovar Albanian samples go up to S17250, which I think splits into both dinaric north and south? There’s no further resolution sadly.

There’s likely other founder effects in Albanians. Aside from mine which seems restricted mostly to Eastern Albania and West Macedonia, there’s others who form their own clusters in the south. However they belong further downstream L1029 likely. I imagine mostly under YP417(common L1029 in Bulgarians and Romanians) and YP263, common in Greek L1029, Bulgarian and Romanian. A few Caucasus samples come under YP263. Maybe some of it was Avars-Slavic?

We even have 2 L260. One of which is from Shkoder. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was from Vraka. The other from Korçë in the south. Majority of R1a/I2a-Din in Albanians is from central to southern Albania where Proto Slavic tribes were more prominent. So I think it mostly arrived with Proto Slavs. Be they descended from Dacians or just related. However founder effects and deep clades I think are more important for ancestry within the last millennium.

Sadly the Balkans is piss poor when it comes to full genome testing. Our project alone only has 636 Albanians. And not everyone has a full resolution test. This is my educated guess based on what data we have. But it could all radically change. Just read the theories about some haplogroups only a few years ago lol.

Yes S17250 splits into PH908 or into dinaric north. If someone is S17250 and has DYS448=19 on their str values then they are certainly PH908, this is what the I2a project told me anyway.

In terms of R1a there's three variables. Proto Slavs/Sclaveni who were assimilated in 500AD; recent slavic admixture, or some sort of PIE branch of R1a which predates the slavs and came with the Illyrians/Thracians etc, though the latter would be pretty rare.

[Ayetooey]

Just checked the bloodlines project and your three tested "I2a-P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>S17250" two from Kosovo one from Macedonia all have DYS448=19. 99% chance they're all PH908 if they tested SNPS.

[MagnusDark]

It'll be difficult to establish if there's any branches under PH908 that are specifically Albanian (due to a founder effect) due to the nature of politics; people with non traditional Y dnas that don't fit the clan model aren't exactly encouraged to go for big Y in these Y dna projects.


There’s a two fold issue with it. On the one hand it’s exactly as you say. Due to tribal retardism they will draw lines in the sand and act pure mocking their minority Ydna kin. And on the other hand it’s insecurity of the tester. Many who also boast and mock haven’t tested. Imagine their surprise when they do. ��.

If Genetics has shown me anything though, it’s the frailty of the Y-Line. Many kept their language and were demographically replaced by an invader line(Basques). Proto Slavs theoretically went from few to many and dominating most of Europe. Now apparently in some Slavic countries the fertility rates have dropped.

Tomorrow I2/R1a Albanians could have a demographic boom and other lines become minority. Or the reverse in Slavic countries. Their ethnic heritage doesn’t cease being anything but. Yet their Ydna distribution flipped. It’s not unheard of. Nature and evolution doesn’t cater to the whims and wishes of man.

The only thing to stop these natural occurrences is genocide. And if that’s what people have to reduce themselves to, to feel pure, then they too will reap what they sew. Endless cycles. Pages in history.

[Dick]

Unfortunately the only ones in the project tested up to PH908 positive is Ashkali minority. The rest of Albanian CTS10228 only goes up to Y3120 mostly Southern Albanians where Proto Slavic tribes settled heavily in the Middle Ages. Mainy being romanized by Byzantines and then disseminating into Albanian, Greek, and Vlach cultures with shifting politics and borders. A few Kosovar Albanian samples go up to S17250, which I think splits into both dinaric north and south? There’s no further resolution sadly.

There’s likely other founder effects in Albanians. Aside from mine which seems restricted mostly to Eastern Albania and West Macedonia, there’s others who form their own clusters in the south. However they belong further downstream L1029 likely. I imagine mostly under YP417(common L1029 in Bulgarians and Romanians) and YP263, common in Greek L1029, Bulgarian and Romanian. A few Caucasus samples come under YP263. Maybe some of it was Avars-Slavic?

We even have 2 L260. One of which is from Shkoder. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was from Vraka. The other from Korçë in the south. Majority of R1a/I2a-Din in Albanians is from central to southern Albania where Proto Slavic tribes were more prominent. So I think it mostly arrived with Proto Slavs. Be they descended from Dacians or just related. However founder effects and deep clades I think are more important for ancestry within the last millennium.

Sadly the Balkans is piss poor when it comes to full genome testing. Our project alone only has 636 Albanians. And not everyone has a full resolution test. This is my educated guess based on what data we have. But it could all radically change. Just read the theories about some haplogroups only a few years ago lol.

I may be wrong but i think it's hard to pinpoint a specific subclade with markers only, especially if you only did 37. snps would be more accurate

[MagnusDark]

Yes S17250 splits into PH908 or into dinaric north. If someone is S17250 and has DYS448=19 on their str values then they are certainly PH908, this is what the I2a project told me anyway.

In terms of R1a there's three variables. Proto Slavs/Sclaveni who were assimilated in 500AD; recent slavic admixture, or some sort of PIE branch of R1a which predates the slavs and came with the Illyrians/Thracians etc, though the latter would be pretty rare.


I will check out ftdna project for they value to see if it’s north or south. Ancient R1a in the Balkans only popped up in 3 cases. Proto Thracian Z93 in that Greek user. Another Greek user on the Facebook R1a was M420 basal. And apparently according to Pribislav a Mijak with basal M198. These all may have been carried including M417* amongst Proto Thracians and Proto Dacians. Eventually becoming a minority or dying out whilst their distant northern kin migrated later bringing other developed clades with them. All old R1a/I2 seems to be found around Ukraine/Romania, so proto slavs could have just moved further north than their southern cousins.

I don’t think Illyrians have anything to do with them in a linguistic sense. They were Probably as diverse as we are today.

[MagnusDark]

Just checked the bloodlines project and your three tested "I2a-P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>S17250" two from Kosovo one from Macedonia all have DYS448=19. 99% chance they're all PH908 if they tested SNPS.

A lot were tested at YSEQ. I haven’t tested there personally so I can’t see strs.

[hush2019]

:rotfl:

Lol ha

[North Sea]

Vasojevic were probably of Albanian or Vlach origin, you just need to find an Albanian with their EV13 to show this. Them not sharing close TMCRA with other Albos means nothing, there are many Albanians that dont do this with eachother.