Atypical Moroccan Jew 23andme

[Sp_loa]

Thought I'd share this if anyone is interested. Found this one in my grandmother's matches list.
He scores more European and Ashkenazi than average, and also has match for a specific region is Spain which is very rare.


https://i.ibb.co/WzRFxPD/Screen-Shot-2019-04-13-at-8-10-53-PM.png

Mtdna- H14 (Levant)
YDNA- R-U152 ( France and Northern Italy)

Surname Serfaty (French in Hebrew) so French YDNA makes sense.
This family is very known family that it's descendants migrated from Troyes (Northern France) after the Expulsion of Jews from France (1182) and splitted to 3 branches-

1. Sephardi Branch settled in Toledo (Castilie-la mancha) and Indeed this person gets match for Castile-la mancha. After the expulsion of Jews from Spain (1492) they migrated to North Africa and the Ottoman Empire (mainly Balkan countries)
2. Ashkenazi Branch
3. the third branch migrated to Provence (Southern France) and later to Italy.

I find it very interesting.

[Sp_loa]

Another Serfaty from Morocco (all 4 grandparents from Fez) 23andme:

https://i.ibb.co/ZWs7j9C/Screen-Shot-2019-04-13-at-10-15-20-PM.png



YDNA- I-F1295 (Western Europe)

Mtdna: J2a1a (Scandinavia and the Alps)

[Pine]

What makes you think all these YDNA lines are European? It has been shown that almost all of Sephardi and Ashkenazi YDNA lines aren't European in origin. Also, post some heavily west asian North African Jewish results.

[Grace O'Malley]

What makes you think all these YDNA lines are European? It has been shown that almost all of Sephardi and Ashkenazi YDNA lines aren't European in origin. Also, post some heavily west asian North African Jewish results.

R1b-U152 and I are European though.

[talombo]

How are you able to see the countries and regions of your matches ?
My matches look like this:

https://imgur.com/oitSNPO (Egyptian and Syrian)
https://imgur.com/3echlru (Egyptian and Libyan)

[mihyar]

The regional matches are shocking. Are Sephardim known to match other regions in Iberia or Italy on 23andMe?

[mihyar]

How are you able to see the countries and regions of your matches ?
My matches look like this:

https://imgur.com/oitSNPO (Egyptian and Syrian)
https://imgur.com/3echlru (Egyptian and Libyan)

What confuses me here is that on GEDmatch, the Moroccan Jewish average isn't *that* far from the Libyan one (it's clear that Moroccan Jews are somewhat European-shifted relative to Libyan Jews, but they're not more than 2 or 3 populations away from each other in a by-distances list)—these 23andMe results paint a very different picture.

[Pine]

What confuses me here is that on GEDmatch, the Moroccan Jewish average isn't *that* far from the Libyan one (it's clear that Moroccan Jews are somewhat European-shifted relative to Libyan Jews, but they're not more than 2 or 3 populations away from each other in a by-distances list)—these 23andMe results paint a very different picture.

SpLoa has very unique cousin matches.

[Sp_loa]

The regional matches are shocking. Are Sephardim known to match other regions in Iberia or Italy on 23andMe?

Matching Spain is super rare, I only found 4/5 Full Moroccan Jews with regional match to this day. Most were from the very north Spanish speaking regions, where larger influx of New-Christians settled. Regions I saw: Andalucia, Galicia, Castile-La mancha, Aragon, Valencia... there are probably more.

Matching Italy is very common, especially for jews from coastal regions. Only Atlas Jews don't seem to be recently connected to Italy (Isolation).
Usually we are talking about Southern Italian regions- Sicily, Calabria, Campania, Apulia and Abruzzo in that order. most Northern I saw was Lazio which is very uncommon. On the other hand there was half MJ half Ashkenazi with match for Liguria and Tuscany, and even with Friuli-Venezia Giulia if I remember right.
but I think these regions are from the Ashkenazi side as they are known to have more to do with Northern Italians while Italian ancestry for Moroccan Jews doesn't seem to be from Northern Italy.

Pine is right when he is implying these results are cherry picked, but that's obvious from the title (Atypical).
I have another thread with the entire diversity- overwhelmly MENA MJ and some that are more Euro. it's usually regional depended (Where more sephardim and conversos arrived).

BTW NA&Arabia category hides some levantine blood so take it with a grain of salt. For sure part of it is berber but until they have isolated North African category we can not know how much is levant associated and how much berber.
However 23andme is pretty good with European categories (Lebanese get 0% Euro in most cases I saw, which means they don't have the levant-Italy issue like in Ancestry).. so I think we can trust the Southern European percentage

[Sp_loa]

What confuses me here is that on GEDmatch, the Moroccan Jewish average isn't *that* far from the Libyan one (it's clear that Moroccan Jews are somewhat European-shifted relative to Libyan Jews, but they're not more than 2 or 3 populations away from each other in a by-distances list)—these 23andMe results paint a very different picture.

My grandmother K15 oracle:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Jewish 4.79
2 Algerian_Jewish 5.03
3 Sephardic_Jewish 5.04
4 Tunisian_Jewish 6.87
5 South_Italian 6.96
6 East_Sicilian 7.59
7 Libyan_Jewish 8.22
8 Ashkenazi 8.45
9 Central_Greek 9.27
10 Cyprian 10.23
11 West_Sicilian 10.85
12 Italian_Abruzzo 11.82
13 Syrian 13.55
14 Lebanese_Muslim 13.65
15 Greek 14.55
16 Greek_Thessaly 14.69
17 Samaritan 14.93
18 Jordanian 15.69
19 Tuscan 16.46
20 Palestinian 16.49

Not exactly 2-3 populations apart.

[Adamm]

I'm Moroccan and I matched with some Jews in America, (they had Spanish/Portuguese ancestors) and I also talked to 1 of these matches and she gave the Jewish name of their family in Portugal.

[billErobreren]

YDNA- R-U152 ( France and Northern Italy)


OK, That is odd. He scored over 2 thirds Southwestern Euro as well

[Pine]

Matching Spain is super rare, I only found 4/5 Full Moroccan Jews with regional match to this day. Most were from the very north Spanish speaking regions, where larger influx of New-Christians settled. Regions I saw: Andalucia, Galicia, Castile-La mancha, Aragon, Valencia... there are probably more.

Matching Italy is very common, especially for jews from coastal regions. Only Atlas Jews don't seem to be recently connected to Italy (Isolation).
Usually we are talking about Southern Italian regions- Sicily, Calabria, Campania, Apulia and Abruzzo in that order. most Northern I saw was Lazio which is very uncommon. On the other hand there was half MJ half Ashkenazi with match for Liguria and Tuscany, and even with Friuli-Venezia Giulia if I remember right.
but I think these regions are from the Ashkenazi side as they are known to have more to do with Northern Italians while Italian ancestry for Moroccan Jews doesn't seem to be from Northern Italy.

Pine is right when he is implying these results are cherry picked, but that's obvious from the title (Atypical).
I have another thread with the entire diversity- overwhelmly MENA MJ and some that are more Euro. it's usually regional depended (Where more sephardim and conversos arrived).

BTW NA&Arabia category hides some levantine blood so take it with a grain of salt. For sure part of it is berber but until they have isolated North African category we can not know how much is levant associated and how much berber.
However 23andme is pretty good with European categories (Lebanese get 0% Euro in most cases I saw, which means they don't have the levant-Italy issue like in Ancestry).. so I think we can trust the Southern European percentage

Here is a Syrian girl. She gets some Italian on 23andMe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-_QdcSG_os

Is this before the relevant update? The simple explanation why Moroccan Jews get Southern Italy and Ashkenazim don't is because of conversos in Southern Italy, on which there is numerous documentation. How much documentation is there on Sephardim deriving from a different admix in Italy than Ashkenazim?