Scottish people have more Steppe ancestry than Norwegians

[Bellbeaking]

many refuse to believe

[verbcn]

They do. They are the closest looking people to the Yammna culture

[TheMaestro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsjTzbHhmnw

[J. Ketch]

Proof?

[Bellbeaking]

They do. They are the closest looking people to the Yammna culture

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?286200-Class-and-Pass-Scottish-Tory-MP-Rory-steppenigga-Stewart

https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3597544.1534357886!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/image.jpg this irish steppenigger gonna fuck some neolithicuck bitches. GET MICKED SPIC.

Norweigians probably look closer to the CordedWareDontCareIaintWearin'Underwear

[Bellbeaking]

Proof?

eurogenes + lamnidis et al 2018

https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-07483-5/MediaObjects/41467_2018_7483_Fig4_HTML.png

[Grace O'Malley]

"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 2.7341,
"Poland_GAC": 51.67,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 48.33,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 3.3445,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.8831,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,

Irish and Norwegians are the same. Sorry I read that incorrectly Irish and Norwegians have the most Scots next.

This is the English.

"sample": "English:Average",
"fit": 2.765,
"Poland_GAC": 54.17,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 45.83,

I'll try some more models later.

[J. Ketch]

eurogenes + lamnidis et al 2018

https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-07483-5/MediaObjects/41467_2018_7483_Fig4_HTML.png
https://i.imgur.com/AfC79o9.png

According to that Scots are also considerably more 'Northern' than Orcadians.

[Grace O'Malley]

Irish and Norwegians have the most Steppe, then the Scots and then the English.

[Bellbeaking]

https://i.imgur9o9.png

According to that Scots are also considerably more 'Northern' than Orcadians.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/r7ZeE8L1n2-aYaBXmhiponCjJFpswHoCV9g0Y85tp-U=w350-h293-no haak et al 2015 also found that. Maybe O'Malley has a sample

neolithics did have some good places to hide in orkney

http://www.great-britain.co.uk/world-heritage/orkney-neolithic/skara-brae.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?286200-Class-and-Pass-Scottish-Tory-MP-Rory-steppenigga-Stewart

https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3597544.1534357886!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/image.jpg this irish steppenigger gonna fuck some neolithicuck bitches. GET MICKED SPIC.

Norweigians probably look closer to the CordedWareDontCareIaintWearin'Underwear

He's got the epicanthic folds to prove it as well. :)

[Bellbeaking]

He's got the epicanthic folds to prove it as well. :)

hence i chose him lol

[Grace O'Malley]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/r7ZeE8L1n2-aYaBXmhiponCjJFpswHoCV9g0Y85tp-U=w350-h293-no haak et al 2015 also found that. Maybe O'Malley has a sample

neolithics did have some good places to hide in orkney

http://www.great-britain.co.uk/world-heritage/orkney-neolithic/skara-brae.jpg

Anyone that has access to G25 can look at these now as the ancient samples are all there. I might need to add some HG to those models that I did previously. Anyway they can all be modelled using Corded Ware also.

[Ayetooey]

Damn that sucks for them.

[Borealis]

"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 2.7341,
"Poland_GAC": 51.67,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 48.33,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 3.3445,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.8831,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,

Irish and Norwegians are the same. Sorry I read that incorrectly Irish and Norwegians have the most Scots next.

This is the English.

"sample": "English:Average",
"fit": 2.765,
"Poland_GAC": 54.17,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 45.83,

I'll try some more models later.

These are extremely close numbers. I always said you white people were the same but no one listened to me. And we have retards slitting throats over gay ass phenotype differences

[Grace O'Malley]

These are extremely close numbers. I always said you white people were the same but no one listened to me. And we have retards slitting throats over gay ass phenotype differences

Well they are all Northwestern Europeans who are extremely close using genetic distances.

I actually got a little more Steppe proving there is a bit of genetic diversity.

"sample": "Custom:AGUser",
"fit": 3.193,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 50.83,
"Poland_GAC": 49.17,

These are population averages that are used.

[J. Ketch]

I have always thought Scots are the most distinctive looking people of the British Isles, but I don't put that down to extra Steppe (any more than the Irish), terrain and climate perhaps. Genetically they are largely intermediate of Irish and Southern Brits.

[Grace O'Malley]

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 2.6182,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 55,
"Poland_GAC": 44.17,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0.83,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.626,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 53.33,
"Poland_GAC": 46.67,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 2.4823,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 52.5,
"Poland_GAC": 47.5,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "English:Average",
"fit": 2.4208,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 50.83,
"Poland_GAC": 49.17,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0,
"Trypillia": 0,

[Grace O'Malley]

Using the same model with Yamnaya.

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.8426,
"Poland_GAC": 50,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0.83,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 3.267,
"Poland_GAC": 48.33,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 47.5,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 4.17,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 2.7342,
"Poland_GAC": 51.67,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 47.5,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0.83,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "English:Average",
"fit": 2.7039,
"Poland_GAC": 53.33,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 45,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 1.67,
"Trypillia": 0,

Anyone suggest any other models to try?

[J. Ketch]

Using the same model with Yamnaya.

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.8426,
"Poland_GAC": 50,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0.83,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 3.267,
"Poland_GAC": 48.33,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 47.5,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 4.17,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 2.7342,
"Poland_GAC": 51.67,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 47.5,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 0.83,
"Trypillia": 0,

"sample": "English:Average",
"fit": 2.7039,
"Poland_GAC": 53.33,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 45,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 1.67,
"Trypillia": 0,

Anyone suggest any other models to try?
I got better fits with Poltavka than Yamnaya Samara, and Ukraine Neolithic outlier than Barcin_N.

[XenophobicPrussian]

2019 and people still think Yamnaya is "steppe" or proto-Indo-European. Europeans outside of the Volga region and Caucasus have zero Yamnaya admixture(they have admixture similar to it of course). Bell Beaker descends from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, Corded Ware descends from eneolithic Ukraine, where the Corded Ware-like genome was already present 1k years before Yamnaya.

Khvalynsk, Repin, Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets culture, this is "steppe", not Yamnaya. It's a middle-late IE culture, and Yamnaya isn't EHG+CHG, but Ukraine_eneolithic_outlier I6561+North Caucasus eneolithic(which was EHG+CHG, more CHG). Yamnaya had Globular Amphora admixture, therefore they had admixture from the west. They are a pool of DNA, not a source.


"sample": "Yamnaya_Samara:Average",
"fit": 5.8581,
"EHG": 58.33,
"CHG": 34.17,
"Poland_GAC": 7.5,


"sample": "Yamnaya_Samara:Average",
"fit": 3.0229,
"Progress_Eneolithic": 70.83,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 29.17,

Also checked moderns, they prefer I6561 over Yamnaya and show what common sense should tell everyone, eastern Europeans like western Russians have the highest "steppe" admixture, not Norwegians, Scots or whatever. NW Europeans have the most HG-rich Globular Amphora admixture, not steppe.

[Grace O'Malley]

2019 and people still think Yamnaya is "steppe" or proto-Indo-European. Europeans outside of the Volga region and Caucasus have zero Yamnaya admixture(they have admixture similar to it of course). Bell Beaker descends from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, Corded Ware descends from eneolithic Ukraine, where the Corded Ware-like genome was already present 1k years before Yamnaya.

Khvalynsk, Repin, Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets culture, this is "steppe", not Yamnaya. It's a middle-late IE culture, and Yamnaya isn't EHG+CHG, but Ukraine_eneolithic_outlier I6561+North Caucasus eneolithic(which was EHG+CHG, more CHG). Yamnaya had Globular Amphora admixture, therefore they had admixture from the west. They are a pool of DNA, not a source.





Also checked moderns, they prefer I6561 over Yamnaya and show what common sense should tell everyone, eastern Europeans like western Russians have the highest "steppe" admixture, not Norwegians, Scots or whatever. NW Europeans have the most HG-rich Globular Amphora admixture, not steppe.

Do some models on the different populations? I'll try later and post.

[Dick]

2019 and people still think Yamnaya is "steppe" or proto-Indo-European. Europeans outside of the Volga region and Caucasus have zero Yamnaya admixture(they have admixture similar to it of course). Bell Beaker descends from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, Corded Ware descends from eneolithic Ukraine, where the Corded Ware-like genome was already present 1k years before Yamnaya.

Khvalynsk, Repin, Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets culture, this is "steppe", not Yamnaya. It's a middle-late IE culture, and Yamnaya isn't EHG+CHG, but Ukraine_eneolithic_outlier I6561+North Caucasus eneolithic(which was EHG+CHG, more CHG). Yamnaya had Globular Amphora admixture, therefore they had admixture from the west. They are a pool of DNA, not a source.





Also checked moderns, they prefer I6561 over Yamnaya and show what common sense should tell everyone, eastern Europeans like western Russians have the highest "steppe" admixture, not Norwegians, Scots or whatever. NW Europeans have the most HG-rich Globular Amphora admixture, not steppe.
This is what always confused me. Western euros supposedly have more steppe but easterners more whg. Wtf

[Borealis]

This is what always confused me. Western euros supposedly have more steppe but easterners more whg. Wtf

Easterners have more hunter gatherer admixture like SHG I think. Steppe is generally higher in the east, but northern Europeans have similar(in some models slightly higher) steppe than eastern Europeans like Ukrainains belarusians, russians.

[Borealis]

2019 and people still think Yamnaya is "steppe" or proto-Indo-European. Europeans outside of the Volga region and Caucasus have zero Yamnaya admixture(they have admixture similar to it of course). Bell Beaker descends from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, Corded Ware descends from eneolithic Ukraine, where the Corded Ware-like genome was already present 1k years before Yamnaya.

Khvalynsk, Repin, Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets culture, this is "steppe", not Yamnaya. It's a middle-late IE culture, and Yamnaya isn't EHG+CHG, but Ukraine_eneolithic_outlier I6561+North Caucasus eneolithic(which was EHG+CHG, more CHG). Yamnaya had Globular Amphora admixture, therefore they had admixture from the west. They are a pool of DNA, not a source.





Also checked moderns, they prefer I6561 over Yamnaya and show what common sense should tell everyone, eastern Europeans like western Russians have the highest "steppe" admixture, not Norwegians, Scots or whatever. NW Europeans have the most HG-rich Globular Amphora admixture, not steppe.

Are you ColdMountains from anthrogenica?

[Bellbeaking]

2019 and people still think Yamnaya is "steppe" or proto-Indo-European. Europeans outside of the Volga region and Caucasus have zero Yamnaya admixture(they have admixture similar to it of course). Bell Beaker descends from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, Corded Ware descends from eneolithic Ukraine, where the Corded Ware-like genome was already present 1k years before Yamnaya.

Khvalynsk, Repin, Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets culture, this is "steppe", not Yamnaya. It's a middle-late IE culture, and Yamnaya isn't EHG+CHG, but Ukraine_eneolithic_outlier I6561+North Caucasus eneolithic(which was EHG+CHG, more CHG). Yamnaya had Globular Amphora admixture, therefore they had admixture from the west. They are a pool of DNA, not a source.





Also checked moderns, they prefer I6561 over Yamnaya and show what common sense should tell everyone, eastern Europeans like western Russians have the highest "steppe" admixture, not Norwegians, Scots or whatever. NW Europeans have the most HG-rich Globular Amphora admixture, not steppe.

No one thinks that, its just a habit of calling yamnaya steppe

[Token]

Northern and Central Europeans are almost identical in terms of steppe ancestry, these differences are not statistically significant. Things begin to change more drastically when you cross the Alps/Pyrenees.

[Borealis]

Do some models on the different populations? I'll try later and post.

"sample": "German:Average",
"fit": 2.0466,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 40,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 9.17,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 2.646,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 55,
"Poland_GAC": 45,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 0,

Fit drops for both without CWC

[Grace O'Malley]

"sample": "German:Average",
"fit": 2.0466,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 40,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 9.17,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 2.646,
"CWC_Baltic_early": 55,
"Poland_GAC": 45,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 0,

Fit drops for both without CWC

CWC Baltic early is virtually identical to Yamnaya. Some populations will prefer Corded Ware.

[Coastal Elite]

Well they are all Northwestern Europeans who are extremely close using genetic distances.

I actually got a little more Steppe proving there is a bit of genetic diversity.

"sample": "Custom:AGUser",
"fit": 3.193,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 50.83,
"Poland_GAC": 49.17,

These are population averages that are used.

Did you use the G25 nMonte runner for those results?

[Joso]

They do. They are the closest looking people to the Yammna culture

True. Irish too
http://i.imgur.com/PYKqL19.jpg?1

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Makes sense

all the Western Europe was replaced by Yamnaya/Bell Beakers R1b

[Grace O'Malley]

Did you use the G25 nMonte runner for those results?

Yes I do. It's great for someone like me who hasn't really looked into using R yet.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

2019 and people still think Yamnaya is "steppe" or proto-Indo-European. Europeans outside of the Volga region and Caucasus have zero Yamnaya admixture(they have admixture similar to it of course). Bell Beaker descends from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, Corded Ware descends from eneolithic Ukraine, where the Corded Ware-like genome was already present 1k years before Yamnaya.

Khvalynsk, Repin, Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets culture, this is "steppe", not Yamnaya. It's a middle-late IE culture, and Yamnaya isn't EHG+CHG, but Ukraine_eneolithic_outlier I6561+North Caucasus eneolithic(which was EHG+CHG, more CHG). Yamnaya had Globular Amphora admixture, therefore they had admixture from the west. They are a pool of DNA, not a source.





Also checked moderns, they prefer I6561 over Yamnaya and show what common sense should tell everyone, eastern Europeans like western Russians have the highest "steppe" admixture, not Norwegians, Scots or whatever. NW Europeans have the most HG-rich Globular Amphora admixture, not steppe.

but Northwest Hunter Gatherers was completely extinct By Blonde Bell Beakers

[Borealis]

True. Irish too
http://i.imgur.com/PYKqL19.jpg?1

Ugly motherfucker.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

This is what always confused me. Western euros supposedly have more steppe but easterners more whg. Wtf

the whg in Easterners it's basically EHG + CHG, so, Corded ware

it's almost impossible that early Aurignacians and Gravettians have survived so long on Northeast

[Token]

Ugly motherfucker.

He is not ugly, give him a hair cut and he will look above average.

[Borealis]

He is not ugly, give him a hair cut and he will look above average.

He is ugly as shit and a throwback to a more primitive era. Inbred looking ass.

[Grace O'Malley]

Ugly motherfucker.

It's just the hair. Lots uglier than him.

[Token]

He is ugly as shit and a throwback to a more primitive era. Inbred looking ass.
Admit that you are just mad because your wog ancestors got cucked by people who looked like this man.

[Borealis]

Admit that you are just mad because your wog ancestors got cucked by people who looked like this man.

He just reminds me of knuckledragging white trash Ive seen before.

[Borealis]

If my ancestors got cucked by noble looking guys like this:

http://www.renegadetribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/aryan-warrior.jpg

I would not care.

[Grace O'Malley]

He just reminds me of knuckledragging white trash Ive seen before.

It would have been fine lads like this.

https://93546-d-c.ooyala.com/content/images/0789/Pierre-Spies_219654.jpg

Here's an Irish rugby team member on a beach in Australia with a group of Aussie women following him. :)

https://cdn-01.independent.ie/irish-news/article29381838.ece/ff68d/AUTOCROP/w620/NWS_20130629_ANA_014_28100377_I1.JPG

https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/2596103d/8dc2c420/british-and-irish-lions-rugby-team-have-a-cold-water-recovery-session-after-training-at-st-kilda-beach-melbourne-australia-shutterstock-editorial-2596103d.jpg

[Roy]

I have always thought Scots are the most distinctive looking people of the British Isles, but I don't put that down to extra Steppe (any more than the Irish), terrain and climate perhaps. Genetically they are largely intermediate of Irish and Southern Brits.

Yup. I concur. I do wonder whether Yamnaya people actually physically resembled Scots in some particular way too or is that their more modern development - how they generally look like etc.. for me at least Scottish people are alien looking on average, more than English people for instance if I compare them to the native population of my country Poland.

[Dick]

It would have been fine lads like this.

https://93546-d-c.ooyala.com/content/images/0789/Pierre-Spies_219654.jpg

Here's an Irish rugby team member on a beach in Australia with a group of Aussie women following him. :)

https://cdn-01.independent.ie/irish-news/article29381838.ece/ff68d/AUTOCROP/w620/NWS_20130629_ANA_014_28100377_I1.JPG

https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/2596103d/8dc2c420/british-and-irish-lions-rugby-team-have-a-cold-water-recovery-session-after-training-at-st-kilda-beach-melbourne-australia-shutterstock-editorial-2596103d.jpg

Is that you in the pink bikini

[XenophobicPrussian]

True. Irish too
http://i.imgur.com/PYKqL19.jpg?1
You are aware this is Coon's example of a paleolithic/mesolithic European type, right?


we chased them all ahaha steppes for mongoloid baby
Who's we, semite?


Yup. I concur. I do wonder whether Yamnaya people actually physically resembled Scots in some particular way too or is that their more modern development - how they generally look like etc.. for me at least Scottish people are alien looking on average, more than English people for instance if I compare them to the native population of my country Poland.
Yamnaya physically resembled Artem Lobov.

[Aren]

2019 and people still think Yamnaya is "steppe" or proto-Indo-European. Europeans outside of the Volga region and Caucasus have zero Yamnaya admixture(they have admixture similar to it of course). Bell Beaker descends from Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, Corded Ware descends from eneolithic Ukraine, where the Corded Ware-like genome was already present 1k years before Yamnaya.

Khvalynsk, Repin, Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets culture, this is "steppe", not Yamnaya. It's a middle-late IE culture, and Yamnaya isn't EHG+CHG, but Ukraine_eneolithic_outlier I6561+North Caucasus eneolithic(which was EHG+CHG, more CHG). Yamnaya had Globular Amphora admixture, therefore they had admixture from the west. They are a pool of DNA, not a source.
The earliest CWC samples(all R1a) are nearly identical to Yamnaya though. It's not even close to a given fact that CWC descends from Sredny Stog despite the similarities when it comes to Y-DNA. The most reasonable explenation would be that they come from a R1a-M417 rich population very similar to Yamnaya.



Also checked moderns, they prefer I6561 over Yamnaya and show what common sense should tell everyone, eastern Europeans like western Russians have the highest "steppe" admixture, not Norwegians, Scots or whatever. NW Europeans have the most HG-rich Globular Amphora admixture, not steppe.
NW Europeans, especially Scandinavians and Icelanders have the most whether you use Yamnaya, Sredny Stog or CWC(but not by much obviously). Whilst it's true NW Euros have more admix from the various HG-rich farmer cultures of the late Chalcolithic, Balto-Slavs on the other hand have excessive amount of HG-admix(peaking in the eastern Baltic area) than what the pre-IE farmers of the area had.

Some runs with CWC

"distance%=2.5033"

Icelandic

CWC_Germany,75.2
Sweden_TRB,24.8

"distance%=2.585"

Norwegian

CWC_Germany,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=6.6172"

Belarusian

CWC_Germany,69.6
Poland_GAC,15
Narva_Lithuania,11
Maykop,4.4


"distance%=7.2039"

Lithuanian

CWC_Germany,72
Narva_Lithuania,15.4
Poland_GAC,12.6

With Sredny Stog

"distance%=3.7347"

Norwegian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,73.8
Sweden_TRB,26.2

"distance%=4.1004"

Icelandic

Ukraine_Eneolithic,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=7.1512"

Lithuanian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,67.6
Narva_Lithuania,21.4
Poland_GAC,11

"distance%=6.5393"

Belarusian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,63.8
Narva_Lithuania,17.4
Poland_GAC,12.2
Maykop,6.6

With Yamnaya

"distance%=4.1296"

Norwegian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52
Sweden_TRB,48

"distance%=4.4568"

Icelandic

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52.4
Sweden_TRB,47.6

"distance%=6.8961"

Belarusian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,48.2
Poland_GAC,35.2
Narva_Lithuania,14.6
Maykop,2

"distance%=7.5743"

Lithuanian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,47.6
Poland_GAC,32.2
Narva_Lithuania,20.2

[FinalFlash]

The earliest CWC samples(all R1a) are nearly identical to Yamnaya though. It's not even close to a given fact that CWC descends from Sredny Stog despite the similarities when it comes to Y-DNA. The most reasonable explenation would be that they come from a R1a-M417 rich population very similar to Yamnaya.



NW Europeans, especially Scandinavians and Icelanders have the most whether you use Yamnaya, Sredny Stog or CWC(but not by much obviously). Whilst it's true NW Euros have more admix from the various HG-rich farmer cultures of the late Chalcolithic, Balto-Slavs on the other hand have excessive amount of HG-admix(peaking in the eastern Baltic area) than what the pre-IE farmers of the area had.

Some runs with CWC

"distance%=2.5033"

Icelandic

CWC_Germany,75.2
Sweden_TRB,24.8

"distance%=2.585"

Norwegian

CWC_Germany,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=6.6172"

Belarusian

CWC_Germany,69.6
Poland_GAC,15
Narva_Lithuania,11
Maykop,4.4


"distance%=7.2039"

Lithuanian

CWC_Germany,72
Narva_Lithuania,15.4
Poland_GAC,12.6

With Sredny Stog

"distance%=3.7347"

Norwegian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,73.8
Sweden_TRB,26.2

"distance%=4.1004"

Icelandic

Ukraine_Eneolithic,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=7.1512"

Lithuanian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,67.6
Narva_Lithuania,21.4
Poland_GAC,11

"distance%=6.5393"

Belarusian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,63.8
Narva_Lithuania,17.4
Poland_GAC,12.2
Maykop,6.6

With Yamnaya

"distance%=4.1296"

Norwegian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52
Sweden_TRB,48

"distance%=4.4568"

Icelandic

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52.4
Sweden_TRB,47.6

"distance%=6.8961"

Belarusian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,48.2
Poland_GAC,35.2
Narva_Lithuania,14.6
Maykop,2

"distance%=7.5743"

Lithuanian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,47.6
Poland_GAC,32.2
Narva_Lithuania,20.2

So this steppe admixture doesn't peak in the Baltics/NW Russia?

[Borealis]

The earliest CWC samples(all R1a) are nearly identical to Yamnaya though. It's not even close to a given fact that CWC descends from Sredny Stog despite the similarities when it comes to Y-DNA. The most reasonable explenation would be that they come from a R1a-M417 rich population very similar to Yamnaya.



NW Europeans, especially Scandinavians and Icelanders have the most whether you use Yamnaya, Sredny Stog or CWC(but not by much obviously). Whilst it's true NW Euros have more admix from the various HG-rich farmer cultures of the late Chalcolithic, Balto-Slavs on the other hand have excessive amount of HG-admix(peaking in the eastern Baltic area) than what the pre-IE farmers of the area had.

Some runs with CWC

"distance%=2.5033"

Icelandic

CWC_Germany,75.2
Sweden_TRB,24.8

"distance%=2.585"

Norwegian

CWC_Germany,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=6.6172"

Belarusian

CWC_Germany,69.6
Poland_GAC,15
Narva_Lithuania,11
Maykop,4.4


"distance%=7.2039"

Lithuanian

CWC_Germany,72
Narva_Lithuania,15.4
Poland_GAC,12.6

With Sredny Stog

"distance%=3.7347"

Norwegian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,73.8
Sweden_TRB,26.2

"distance%=4.1004"

Icelandic

Ukraine_Eneolithic,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=7.1512"

Lithuanian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,67.6
Narva_Lithuania,21.4
Poland_GAC,11

"distance%=6.5393"

Belarusian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,63.8
Narva_Lithuania,17.4
Poland_GAC,12.2
Maykop,6.6

With Yamnaya

"distance%=4.1296"

Norwegian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52
Sweden_TRB,48

"distance%=4.4568"

Icelandic

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52.4
Sweden_TRB,47.6

"distance%=6.8961"

Belarusian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,48.2
Poland_GAC,35.2
Narva_Lithuania,14.6
Maykop,2

"distance%=7.5743"

Lithuanian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,47.6
Poland_GAC,32.2
Narva_Lithuania,20.2

You need to use early CWC. then show the result


So this steppe admixture doesn't peak in the Baltics/NW Russia?

this is the debate

[Grace O'Malley]

The earliest CWC samples(all R1a) are nearly identical to Yamnaya though. It's not even close to a given fact that CWC descends from Sredny Stog despite the similarities when it comes to Y-DNA. The most reasonable explenation would be that they come from a R1a-M417 rich population very similar to Yamnaya.



NW Europeans, especially Scandinavians and Icelanders have the most whether you use Yamnaya, Sredny Stog or CWC(but not by much obviously). Whilst it's true NW Euros have more admix from the various HG-rich farmer cultures of the late Chalcolithic, Balto-Slavs on the other hand have excessive amount of HG-admix(peaking in the eastern Baltic area) than what the pre-IE farmers of the area had.

Some runs with CWC

"distance%=2.5033"

Icelandic

CWC_Germany,75.2
Sweden_TRB,24.8

"distance%=2.585"

Norwegian

CWC_Germany,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=6.6172"

Belarusian

CWC_Germany,69.6
Poland_GAC,15
Narva_Lithuania,11
Maykop,4.4


"distance%=7.2039"

Lithuanian

CWC_Germany,72
Narva_Lithuania,15.4
Poland_GAC,12.6

With Sredny Stog

"distance%=3.7347"

Norwegian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,73.8
Sweden_TRB,26.2

"distance%=4.1004"

Icelandic

Ukraine_Eneolithic,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=7.1512"

Lithuanian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,67.6
Narva_Lithuania,21.4
Poland_GAC,11

"distance%=6.5393"

Belarusian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,63.8
Narva_Lithuania,17.4
Poland_GAC,12.2
Maykop,6.6

With Yamnaya

"distance%=4.1296"

Norwegian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52
Sweden_TRB,48

"distance%=4.4568"

Icelandic

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52.4
Sweden_TRB,47.6

"distance%=6.8961"

Belarusian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,48.2
Poland_GAC,35.2
Narva_Lithuania,14.6
Maykop,2

"distance%=7.5743"

Lithuanian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,47.6
Poland_GAC,32.2
Narva_Lithuania,20.2

Everyone gets a large amount of CWC Germany though because it has more farmer than Early CWC.

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.1185,
"CWC_Germany": 71.67,
"Poland_GAC": 28.33,

Although I defer to your views on this because you have a lot more knowledge on the subject.

[XenophobicPrussian]

CWC Baltic early is virtually identical to Yamnaya. Some populations will prefer Corded Ware.
Not exactly.


"sample": "CWC_Baltic_early:Average",
"fit": 1.9488,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 68.33,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 25,
"Ukraine_N": 4.17,
"Comb_Ceramic_Estonia": 2.5,


"sample": "CWC_Baltic_early:Average",
"fit": 2.3074,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 85.83,
"Poland_GAC": 7.5,
"Comb_Ceramic_Estonia": 4.17,
"Ukraine_N": 2.5,

The majority of Baltic Corded Ware from that early period were regular Corded Ware, these may've been migrants from the east from a culture outside of CW that didn't contribute much genetically.

Are you ColdMountains from anthrogenica?
No, don't have an account there, too much focus on MENA genetics.

Do some models on the different populations? I'll try later and post.
Using your models and replacing Yamnaya with Ukraine_Eneolithic_outlier does lower the fits, but only by a bit, and I'm guessing it's because Yamnaya_Samara has 7 samples while this is only one sample. More samples does give better fits in every case. When I use one lone Yamnaya_Samara, the fit is worse than Ukraine_Eneolithic_outlier. Using straight up CWC also has better fits than Yamnaya_Samara, and dates shouldn't have a lot to do with that because they're only 500 or so years apart and given CW's R1a, they shouldn't be getting a better fit than Yamnaya, but they do. Also, Ukraine_eneolithic isn't the only pre-Yamnaya Corded Ware like individual, there's also Varna_outlier from Bulgaria, I ran a few models with him and his farmer/HG is from GAC/Ukraine, not local.


"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 3.3016,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 68.33,
"Poland_GAC": 23.33,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 6.67,
"Trypillia": 1.67,


"sample": "Russian_Orel:Average",
"fit": 6.1229,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561: 70.83,
"Poland_GAC": 13.33,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 10.83,
"Trypillia": 5,


"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 3.0407,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 68.33,
"Poland_GAC": 28.33,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 3.33,
"Trypillia": 0,

--------



"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 3.4583,
"Poland_GAC": 52.5,
"Yamnaya_Samara--I0231": 45.83,
"Sweden_Motala_HG": 1.67,
"Trypillia": 0,

--------

Using a model I'd use:


"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 3.1594,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 63.33,
"Poland_GAC": 27.5,
"Ukraine_N": 5.83,
"Comb_Ceramic_Estonia": 3.33,


"sample": "Russian_Orel:Average",
"fit": 5.9762,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 65.83,
"Poland_GAC": 18.33,
"Ukraine_N": 8.33,
"Comb_Ceramic_Estonia": 7.5,


"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 3.0223,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 64.17,
"Poland_GAC": 30.83,
"Comb_Ceramic_Estonia": 2.5,
"Ukraine_N": 2.5,

I guess I can't prove my point 100% because the fits are literally worse, but I'm pretty confident that's only because there's more of the Yamnaya samples being used in the runs, once there will be more samples from Sredny Stog or other western steppe areas I think I'll be proven right.


The earliest CWC samples(all R1a) are nearly identical to Yamnaya though. It's not even close to a given fact that CWC descends from Sredny Stog despite the similarities when it comes to Y-DNA. The most reasonable explenation would be that they come from a R1a-M417 rich population very similar to Yamnaya.



NW Europeans, especially Scandinavians and Icelanders have the most whether you use Yamnaya, Sredny Stog or CWC(but not by much obviously). Whilst it's true NW Euros have more admix from the various HG-rich farmer cultures of the late Chalcolithic, Balto-Slavs on the other hand have excessive amount of HG-admix(peaking in the eastern Baltic area) than what the pre-IE farmers of the area had.

Some runs with CWC

"distance%=2.5033"

Icelandic

CWC_Germany,75.2
Sweden_TRB,24.8

"distance%=2.585"

Norwegian

CWC_Germany,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=6.6172"

Belarusian

CWC_Germany,69.6
Poland_GAC,15
Narva_Lithuania,11
Maykop,4.4


"distance%=7.2039"

Lithuanian

CWC_Germany,72
Narva_Lithuania,15.4
Poland_GAC,12.6

With Sredny Stog

"distance%=3.7347"

Norwegian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,73.8
Sweden_TRB,26.2

"distance%=4.1004"

Icelandic

Ukraine_Eneolithic,74.2
Sweden_TRB,25.8

"distance%=7.1512"

Lithuanian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,67.6
Narva_Lithuania,21.4
Poland_GAC,11

"distance%=6.5393"

Belarusian

Ukraine_Eneolithic,63.8
Narva_Lithuania,17.4
Poland_GAC,12.2
Maykop,6.6

With Yamnaya

"distance%=4.1296"

Norwegian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52
Sweden_TRB,48

"distance%=4.4568"

Icelandic

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,52.4
Sweden_TRB,47.6

"distance%=6.8961"

Belarusian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,48.2
Poland_GAC,35.2
Narva_Lithuania,14.6
Maykop,2

"distance%=7.5743"

Lithuanian

Yamnaya_Kalmykia,47.6
Poland_GAC,32.2
Narva_Lithuania,20.2

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 2.2882,
"CWC_Germany": 64.17,
"Poland_GAC": 31.67,
"Ukraine_N": 4.17,
"Narva_Lithuania": 0,


"sample": "Russian_Orel:Average",
"fit": 5.9706,
"CWC_Germany": 67.5,
"Poland_GAC": 20.83,
"Ukraine_N": 10.83,
"Narva_Lithuania": 0.83,


"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 5.8974,
"CWC_Germany": 68.33,
"Poland_GAC": 23.33,
"Ukraine_N": 8.33,
"Narva_Lithuania": 0,


"sample": "Russian_Smolensk:Average",
"fit": 6.1802,
"CWC_Germany": 65.83,
"Poland_GAC": 20,
"Ukraine_N": 13.33,
"Narva_Lithuania": 0.83,





Everyone gets a large amount of CWC Germany though because it has more farmer than Early CWC.

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.1185,
"CWC_Germany": 71.67,
"Poland_GAC": 28.33,

Although I defer to your views on this because you have a lot more knowledge on the subject.
and because Yamnaya never stepped foot west of Romania(well and a small part of Hungary technically) and north of eastern Ukraine.

[firemonkey]

"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 2.7341,
"Poland_GAC": 51.67,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 48.33,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 3.3445,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.8831,
"Poland_GAC": 50.83,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 49.17,

Irish and Norwegians are the same. Sorry I read that incorrectly Irish and Norwegians have the most Scots next.

This is the English.

"sample": "English:Average",
"fit": 2.765,
"Poland_GAC": 54.17,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 45.83,

I'll try some more models later.


I have about 30% Scottish according to my paper trail.


Unscaled 1000/500 25% filter default



"sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
"fit": 2.0431,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 53.6,
"Poland_GAC": 46.4,

[Aren]

Everyone gets a large amount of CWC Germany though because it has more farmer than Early CWC.

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 2.1185,
"CWC_Germany": 71.67,
"Poland_GAC": 28.33,

Although I defer to your views on this because you have a lot more knowledge on the subject.

I agree. But the user I was quoting does not think that the CWC comes from Yamnaya but from Sredny Stog which as you can see is very close to CWC samples from Germany.
Atm I still think Yamnaya is the best proxy for Steppe/IE input in most Europeans due to the fact that early CWC are almost identical to Yamnaya. However with new samples coming in from the Steppe things might change. I can def see a direct Sredny Stog II > CWC Central Europe > Northern Bell Beakers - Battle Axe Scandinavia route.

[Aren]

I have about 30% Scottish according to my paper trail.


Unscaled 1000/500 25% filter default



"sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
"fit": 2.0431,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 53.6,
"Poland_GAC": 46.4,

Congratz you win :D
Nah but seriously you have one of the highest Steppe I've seen.

[Figaro]

A lotta Magog in there!

[firemonkey]

Congratz you win :D
Nah but seriously you have one of the highest Steppe I've seen.

The Steppe component on K35 at Geneplaza gives me 18.9 west and 12.7 east = 31.6 .

[Grace O'Malley]

This is mine using the same settings as Firemonkey.

"sample": "Custom:AGUser_",
"fit": 1.5977,
"Yamnaya_Samara": 53.33,
"Poland_GAC": 46.67,

[bimf]

He just reminds me of knuckledragging white trash Ive seen before.

Funny cause he reminds me of one of my former boss. Not good-looking maybe, but he was very well-educated and a decent leader

[Aren]

Text

First of all, when you're getting only a couple % of Ukraine_N/SHG/Narva-Kunda in the likes of Norwegians or other NW Euros it's likely noise and indicative of a Steppe source slightly HG-richer than what has been sampled so far. Secondly Northern Slavs require Maykop or other kind of Iran_N-rich population from the BA such as Kura-Araxes in their models which you did not include.
Also I'm not sure why our runs are slightly different. I'm using R and not Poi's tool and with pen=0.
And with that I'm getting for Ukrainians including Maykop

"distance%=6.1056"

Ukrainian

CWC_Germany,55.8
Poland_GAC,21.2
Ukraine_N,13.2
Maykop,9.8

[XenophobicPrussian]

First of all, when you're getting only a couple % of Ukraine_N/SHG/Narva-Kunda in the likes of Norwegians or other NW Euros it's likely noise and indicative of a Steppe source slightly HG-richer than what has been sampled so far. Secondly Northern Slavs require Maykop or other kind of Iran_N-rich population from the BA such as Kura-Araxes in their models which you did not include.
Also I'm not sure why our runs are slightly different. I'm using R and not Poi's tool and with pen=0.
And with that I'm getting for Ukrainians including Maykop

"distance%=6.1056"

Ukrainian

CWC_Germany,55.8
Poland_GAC,21.2
Ukraine_N,13.2
Maykop,9.8
Yeah I'm a pleb, only using Poi's tool. That's quite a bold claim tbh you make about Makyop-like admixture in Slavs. I haven't heard that before.

I wonder what Davidski would think about this theory that Slavs have Maykop/Kura-Araxes, lol. Not that I'm disagreeing or anything, I literally have no idea. The model without Maykop had a better fit, but who knows. I actually suspected that before because to me, Slavs have a lot of Caucasus-influenced looking people, but from what I've seen Slavs are pretty "old European" genetically without any recent stuff so I just assumed maybe it's just Caucasus people have Slavic influenced look rather than vice versa.

Do NW Euros also have this excess Makyop/Kura-Araxes-like admixture?

[Figaro]

it’s reasonable that the Picts are responsible for this, seeing as the other components that went into making Scottish folks are shared in varying degrees by some of their neighbors. Picts were a Scythian people who traced themselves to Magog.
What I just said will be scoffed at by most who read it, but it is quite true. Just ask the Picts themselves...

[Figaro]

Yeah I'm a pleb, only using Poi's tool. That's quite a bold claim tbh you make about Makyop-like admixture in Slavs. I haven't heard that before.

I wonder what Davidski would think about this theory that Slavs have Maykop/Kura-Araxes, lol. Not that I'm disagreeing or anything, I literally have no idea. The model without Maykop had a better fit, but who knows. I actually suspected that before because to me, Slavs have a lot of Caucasus-influenced looking people, but from what I've seen Slavs are pretty "old European" genetically without any recent stuff so I just assumed maybe it's just Caucasus people have Slavic influenced look rather than vice versa.

Do NW Euros also have this excess Makyop/Kura-Araxes-like admixture?

Davidski probably would be quick to say “no” to Slavs having any real maykop admixture. I suppose I could be wrong...although I doubt it.

[Leto]

I actually suspected that before because to me, Slavs have a lot of Caucasus-influenced looking people, but from what I've seen Slavs are pretty "old European" genetically without any recent stuff so I just assumed maybe it's just Caucasus people have Slavic influenced look rather than vice versa.

They do. Don't know anything about nMonte/G25 but on GEDmatch they (North Caucasians in particular) do get 15-25% 'North or NE European' depending on the group and calculator.

[JMack]

Northern and Central Europeans are almost identical in terms of steppe ancestry, these differences are not statistically significant. Things begin to change more drastically when you cross the Alps/Pyrenees.

Yeah, and I'm coming closer to the conclusion that compared to NW Europeans and Central Europeans most other Europeans (i.e. Southern and Eastern Europeans) are mixed-race.

[Figaro]

Yeah, and I'm coming closer to the conclusion that compared to NW Europeans and Central Europeans most other Europeans (i.e. Southern and Eastern Europeans) are mixed-race.

What’s so mixed-race about north Slavs?

If you’re going to say something about huns, mongols, or Siberian’s, forget it.

[Leto]

What’s so mixed-race about north Slavs?

If you’re going to say something about huns, mongols, or Siberian’s, forget it.
He's a troll, changes his profile every other day. He said on the other thread that being 5% (East Asian) makes one mixed-race. My nephews (mostly Russian + Belorussian) are prolly around 5% Siberian judging by my own results and their father's (sister is not tested) and they look like the whitest kids in the world - very blond with blue and green eyes.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Yeah, and I'm coming closer to the conclusion that compared to NW Europeans and Central Europeans most other Europeans (i.e. Southern and Eastern Europeans) are mixed-race.
Well you don't really need a DNA test to know southerners are, lol, but we've known this from the first basic ADMIXTURE runs that came out around the late 2000s.

I still don't think NE Slavs are though(I used to before I got into genetics), I've ran models on them before to try and see what's up, they all reject stuff like exotic Scythians, Tatars, Anatolia_EBA, Caucasus groups in favor of the pre-Bronze Age typical stuff other Europeans north of the Alps are only made up of. Excluding like 1-2% East Asian in western Russians, which is pretty irrelevant. I guess NW and NE Europeans just have different looks from being seperated so long(from the Bell Beaker/Corded Ware split I guess, so 4-6k years ago).

Maybe Davidski rigged his Eurogenes calcs and Global25.

[Leto]

Southern Europeans (a rather broad category from the Aegean islands all the way to Portugal) are not 'mixed-race' either. Some African in the deep South, usually 2-3% at most, except for some Portuguese maybe (they can get as much as 4% judging by TA members' results) but that's all.

[Aren]

Yeah I'm a pleb, only using Poi's tool. That's quite a bold claim tbh you make about Makyop-like admixture in Slavs. I haven't heard that before.

I wonder what Davidski would think about this theory that Slavs have Maykop/Kura-Araxes, lol. Not that I'm disagreeing or anything, I literally have no idea. The model without Maykop had a better fit, but who knows. I actually suspected that before because to me, Slavs have a lot of Caucasus-influenced looking people, but from what I've seen Slavs are pretty "old European" genetically without any recent stuff so I just assumed maybe it's just Caucasus people have Slavic influenced look rather than vice versa.

Do NW Euros also have this excess Makyop/Kura-Araxes-like admixture?

That's the thing, for me using R the model becomes worse for Ukrainians(and other West/East Slavs) without Maykop or Kura-Araxes. However it seems to be the case with Poi's tool aswell, as the fit is a bit better with Maykop.

"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 5.7008,
"CWC_Germany": 55,
"Poland_GAC": 23.33,
"Ukraine_N": 14.17,
"Maykop": 7.5,

However it might not be Maykop or other Caucasus related population but something more East Med-shifted.
One of the best fits I'm getting for Ukrainians is with Chalcolithic farmers from Balkan(who have low HG input) and no GAC at all. And Maykop is basically non-existent.

"distance%=5.545"

Ukrainian

CWC_Germany,53.6
Balkans_ChL,25.6
Ukraine_N,19.2
Maykop,1.6

[XenophobicPrussian]

Southern Europeans (a rather broad category from the Aegean islands all the way to Portugal) are not 'mixed-race' either. Some African in the deep South, usually 2-3% at most, except for some Portuguese maybe (they can get as much as 4% judging by TA members' results) but that's all.
Okay so firstly, having neolithic farmer itself is being mixed race. Of course, all Europeans have it, but some less than others. So from a modern point of view, people will just look past being mixed already and consider the most native admixed as not mixed race.

Basically, the Villabruna related component on this calculator and like 75% of ANE(ANE is 75% paleolithic European and 25% Tianyuan/East Asian) is "European"(that is, being derived from the first Europeans), nothing else. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit#gid=1145986956

How can someone not be mixed race if they don't even have over 50% admixture from Europe's original inhabitants?

Secondly, no, Southern Europeans have double digit admixture(as high as over 20% for some populations) from post-neolithic farmer, steppe MENA migrations. Portuguese have 10% North African. Basques are pretty much the only exception, and arguably have the least post-neolithic/BA admixture in Europe.

[Leto]

Okay so firstly, having neolithic farmer itself is being mixed race. Of course, all Europeans have it, but some less than others. So from a modern point of view, people will just look past being mixed already and consider the most native admixed as not mixed race.
That is your own opinion. To me that's all Caucasoid. So mixity comes into play when we talk about principally different races like SSA, East Asian, Papuans, etc.

[XenophobicPrussian]

That's the thing, for me using R the model becomes worse for Ukrainians(and other West/East Slavs) without Maykop or Kura-Araxes. However it seems to be the case with Poi's tool aswell, as the fit is a bit better with Maykop.

"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 5.7008,
"CWC_Germany": 55,
"Poland_GAC": 23.33,
"Ukraine_N": 14.17,
"Maykop": 7.5,

However it might not be Maykop or other Caucasus related population but something more East Med-shifted.
One of the best fits I'm getting for Ukrainians is with Chalcolithic farmers from Balkan(who have low HG input) and no GAC at all. And Maykop is basically non-existent.

"distance%=5.545"

Ukrainian

CWC_Germany,53.6
Balkans_ChL,25.6
Ukraine_N,19.2
Maykop,1.6
Balkans_ChL definitely had GAC, as they had steppe. Better to use Balkans_N, but none of those had an East Med shift anyway(as in post-EEF MENA stuff).


"sample": "Balkans_ChL:Average",
"fit": 0.9289,
"Balkans_N_Averaged": 87.5,
"Ukraine_Eneolithic--I6561": 10.83,
"Iron_Gates_HG_Averaged": 1.67,
"Yamnaya_Samara_Averaged": 0,


"sample": "Balkans_ChL:Average",
"fit": 1.4249,
"Balkans_N_Averaged": 81.67,
"Poland_GAC_Averaged": 14.17,
"Yamnaya_Samara_Averaged": 4.17,
"Iron_Gates_HG_Averaged": 0,



"sample": "Balkans_ChL:Average",
"fit": 1.0296,
"Balkans_N_Averaged": 84.17,
"Varna_o_Averaged": 15,
"Iron_Gates_HG_Averaged": 0.83,
"Yamnaya_Samara_Averaged": 0,

I read on Eurogenes once Hungary_BA was important to Slavs, using it seems to get the best fits yet, but still pretty horrible. I wonder what's so significant that's missing that Slavs get a fit twice worse that of NW Euros when using the typical post-neolithic populations.


"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 5.2119,
"CWC_Germany_Averaged": 46.67,
"Hungary_BA_Averaged": 41.67,
"Ukraine_N_Averaged": 11.67,
"Poland_GAC_Averaged": 0,


"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 5.2055,
"Hungary_BA_Averaged": 44.17,
"CWC_Germany_Averaged": 42.5,
"Ukraine_N_Averaged": 13.33,
"Scythian_ZevakinoChilikta_Averaged": 0,





That is your own opinion. To me that's all Caucasoid. So mixity comes into play when we talk about principally different races like SSA, East Asian, Papuans, etc.
Indeed you're right that race is subjective. That'll be a huge no thanks to Caucasoidism for me, though. Just so you know WHG and southern Caucasoid Basal Eurasian were seperated by atleast 30k yrs, very hard in my opinion for that not to be considered race mixing.

[Not a Cop]

That's the thing, for me using R the model becomes worse for Ukrainians(and other West/East Slavs) without Maykop or Kura-Araxes. However it seems to be the case with Poi's tool aswell, as the fit is a bit better with Maykop.

"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 5.7008,
"CWC_Germany": 55,
"Poland_GAC": 23.33,
"Ukraine_N": 14.17,
"Maykop": 7.5,

However it might not be Maykop or other Caucasus related population but something more East Med-shifted.
One of the best fits I'm getting for Ukrainians is with Chalcolithic farmers from Balkan(who have low HG input) and no GAC at all. And Maykop is basically non-existent.

"distance%=5.545"

Ukrainian

CWC_Germany,53.6
Balkans_ChL,25.6
Ukraine_N,19.2
Maykop,1.6

Is CHG shift also present in Balts or is it exclusive to Slavs?

[XenophobicPrussian]

"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 4.5085,
"CWC_Germany_Averaged": 50,
"Hungary_BA--I1502 ": 50,
"Poland_GAC_Averaged": 0,
"Ukraine_N_Averaged": 0,


"sample": "Ukrainian:Average",
"fit": 4.4275,
"Hungary_BA--I1502 ": 51.67,
"CWC_Germany_Averaged": 45.83,
"Scythian_ZevakinoChilikta_Averaged": 2.5,
"Ukraine_N_Averaged": 0,

[Leto]

Basically, the Villabruna related component on this calculator and like 75% of ANE(ANE is 75% paleolithic European and 25% Tianyuan/East Asian) is "European"(that is, being derived from the first Europeans), nothing else. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit#gid=1145986956

This doesn't make sense. No European group is even close to 2/3 Villabruna. From your link:

Albanian average - ~45%
Belarusian average - ~57%
Dutch average - ~ 56%
Greek average - ~ 45%
Italy_Abruzzo average - ~40%
Spanish average - ~55%

Measuring whiteness (if that's what you imply) by using this method is ridiculous to me.

[Token]

Yeah, and I'm coming closer to the conclusion that compared to NW Europeans and Central Europeans most other Europeans (i.e. Southern and Eastern Europeans) are mixed-race.

In one way or another, depending on how far back you go, every European is mixed race. ANE itself is a mix of something Sunghir-like and East Asian. But some Southern Europeans do seems to have received subtantial recent admixture from West Asia and North Africa. In the case of Iberians it is already case closed, and we will eventually see widespread Levantine admixture in Italy during Imperial Rome.

[Aren]

Balkans_ChL definitely had GAC, as they had steppe. Better to use Balkans_N, but none of those had an East Med shift anyway(as in post-EEF MENA stuff).

GAC does not have Steppe, it has some minor EHG. But Balkan_Chl is def preferred for Ukrainians and other northern Slavs over GAC, even adding Minoans or BA samples from Anatolia they pick it up too(if you exclude Balkan_Chl). I def think there's something going on there, possibly influence from Thracians and Greeks or just EBA influence from the Balkanic proto-cities.

I think I've found the most plausible fit for Ukrainians. Baden_LCA is one of the Central European farmer groups low in HG admix and seems to have more "Basal" than GAC, TRB or the French Neolithic samples.

"distance%=5.3598"

Ukrainian

CWC_Baltic,63
Baden_LCA,19.6
Ukraine_N,11.6
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,5.8





I read on Eurogenes once Hungary_BA was important to Slavs, using it seems to get the best fits yet, but still pretty horrible. I wonder what's so significant that's missing that Slavs get a fit twice worse that of NW Euros when using the typical post-neolithic populations.
According to David(Eurogenes blogger) the reason for the bad fits is due to genetic drift as modern day Balto-Slavs all come from a small post-BA population somewhere in Eastern Europe. Latvia and Lithuania_BA do have this drift aswell.
But it shouldn't affect the outcome of the runs, as the % should be as legitimate as for NW Euros.
An interesting note here is that the Balto-Slavs who get the best fits are also those who seem to have more outside influences, such as Czechs, Poles and South Slavs. Lithuanians and Latvians on the other hand usually don't get fits under 7 using pre-BA samples.

[JMack]

He's a troll, changes his profile every other day. He said on the other thread that being 5% (East Asian) makes one mixed-race. My nephews (mostly Russian + Belorussian) are prolly around 5% Siberian judging by my own results and their father's (sister is not tested) and they look like the whitest kids in the world - very blond with blue and green eyes.

Well, I change my profile for fun, everyone who interacts with me here know exactly my ancestry (Tyrolean, Italian, Portuguese), I even posted pics of me here, something I don't recall you ever doing. So you can see I'm not biased, I have Southern European ancestry myself and I still can discuss these things objectively without recurring to retardation and denial of obvious truths.

As for your nephews, well, they are objectively mixed-race regardless of how they look like, but that's all subjective anyway. There's no exact way to know where to draw the line.

[Joso]

You are aware this is Coon's example of a paleolithic/mesolithic European type, right?



I realize. But 94% of Western Ireland, where Coon said Brunn is a majority, is R1b. You will never be able to argue around this.

[Joso]

....

However, Haplogroup I1 is not concentrated in Scandinavia where there are Brunns

[XenophobicPrussian]

This doesn't make sense. No European group is even close to 2/3 Villabruna. From your link:

Albanian average - ~45%
Belarusian average - ~57%
Dutch average - ~ 56%
Greek average - ~ 45%
Italy_Abruzzo average - ~40%
Spanish average - ~55%

Measuring whiteness (if that's what you imply) by using this method is ridiculous to me.
I said the Villabruna related component + 75% of ANE.

What other way would there be? What's the difference between mixing with a Saudi 5k years ago or 5 days ago? Evolution takes time. If we were separated from Yoruba Africans by only 5-10k years I guarantee you we'd still pretty much be Yoruba Africans. We're very different from our HG ancestors, not only because of admixture but genetic drift, but nearly everything unique to Europeans compared to other human populations we got from them(and yes, contrary to popular belief, including skin colour).

If you don't like that we can use modern peaking components or admixture runs rather than ancients, which say the same thing:

http://i.imgur.com/T2Df1za.png

Maybe we should just ignore genetics and go with geography and mountain ranges then 'cause "muh Europe".

[XenophobicPrussian]

GAC does not have Steppe, it has some minor EHG. But Balkan_Chl is def preferred for Ukrainians and other northern Slavs over GAC, even adding Minoans or BA samples from Anatolia they pick it up too(if you exclude Balkan_Chl). I def think there's something going on there, possibly influence from Thracians and Greeks or just EBA influence from the Balkanic proto-cities.

I think I've found the most plausible fit for Ukrainians. Baden_LCA is one of the Central European farmer groups low in HG admix and seems to have more "Basal" than GAC, TRB or the French Neolithic samples.

"distance%=5.3598"

Ukrainian

CWC_Baltic,63
Baden_LCA,19.6
Ukraine_N,11.6
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,5.8





According to David(Eurogenes blogger) the reason for the bad fits is due to genetic drift as modern day Balto-Slavs all come from a small post-BA population somewhere in Eastern Europe. Latvia and Lithuania_BA do have this drift aswell.
But it shouldn't affect the outcome of the runs, as the % should be as legitimate as for NW Euros.
An interesting note here is that the Balto-Slavs who get the best fits are also those who seem to have more outside influences, such as Czechs, Poles and South Slavs. Lithuanians and Latvians on the other hand usually don't get fits under 7 using pre-BA samples.
I meant Balkans_Chl has steppe, not GAC. I was saying it's not a pure farmer population so using it is a bit weird.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Okay so firstly, having neolithic farmer itself is being mixed race. Of course, all Europeans have it, but some less than others. So from a modern point of view, people will just look past being mixed already and consider the most native admixed as not mixed race.

Basically, the Villabruna related component on this calculator and like 75% of ANE(ANE is 75% paleolithic European and 25% Tianyuan/East Asian) is "European"(that is, being derived from the first Europeans), nothing else. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit#gid=1145986956

How can someone not be mixed race if they don't even have over 50% admixture from Europe's original inhabitants?

Secondly, no, Southern Europeans have double digit admixture(as high as over 20% for some populations) from post-neolithic farmer, steppe MENA migrations. Portuguese have 10% North African. Basques are pretty much the only exception, and arguably have the least post-neolithic/BA admixture in Europe.

Villabruna/WHG it's a dead/Extinct genetics people on modern populations

also Villabruna related people can't be considered "white or european", since they was a proto population hibrid of unknown populations and with high Neanderthaloid and Aurignacian

the only components that can be considered European it's CHG and EHG

[XenophobicPrussian]

Villabruna/WHG it's a dead/Extinct genetics people on modern populations

also Villabruna related people can't be considered "white or european", since they was a proto population hibrid of unknown populations and with high Neanderthaloid and Aurignacian

the only components that can be considered European it's CHG and EHG
Nope, populations like Anatolian farmers, CHG, EHG are not pure populations, they're all mixed and haven't been isolated for a really long time. They aren't population outliers. Look at a PCA plot. EHG was 80-90% Villabruna and 10-20% East Asian, ANE 75/25. CHG was 50% Basal Eurasian(peaks in Saudis) and 50% ANE. Anatolian HGs/farmers were 55% Basal Eurasian, 45% Villabruna.

CHG didn't even exist before 14-22k BC, Georgia was inhabited by Anatolian-like Villabruna-Basal Eurasian mixes before ANE crosses the Urals. How do you think Anatolian HGs/farmers got y-dna I2? ANE had paleolithic European mtDNA, not East Asian. The only reason we have less Neanderthal than Villabruna is because we mixed with populations with less Neanderthal like Basal Eurasians and genetic drift.

Not that there hasn't been significant genetic mutations after these, but pretty much the basal, outlier races of the world are WHG, Basal Eurasian, Biaka Pygmy, San, Ulchi/Oroqen(or Baikal_neolithic), Taiwanese Aborigines, Onge, Australian Abos, that's about it. The vast majority of human differences can be explained by these 8 ancestral human populations seperated for a really long time.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Nope, populations like Anatolian farmers, CHG, EHG are not pure populations, they're all mixed and haven't been isolated for a really long time. They aren't population outliers. Look at a PCA plot. EHG was 80-90% Villabruna and 10-20% East Asian, ANE 75/25. CHG was 50% Basal Eurasian(peaks in Saudis) and 50% ANE. Anatolian HGs/farmers were 55% Basal Eurasian, 45% Villabruna.

CHG didn't even exist before 14-22k BC, Georgia was inhabited by Anatolian-like Villabruna-Basal Eurasian mixes before ANE crosses the Urals. How do you think Anatolian HGs/farmers got y-dna I2? ANE had paleolithic European mtDNA, not East Asian. The only reason we have less Neanderthal than Villabruna is because we mixed with populations with less Neanderthal like Basal Eurasians and genetic drift.

Not that there hasn't been significant genetic mutations after these, but pretty much the basal, outlier races of the world are WHG, Basal Eurasian, Biaka Pygmy, San, Ulchi/Oroqen(or Baikal_neolithic), Taiwanese Aborigines, Onge, Australian Abos, that's about it. The vast majority of human differences can be explained by these 8 ancestral human populations seperated for a really long time.

Anatolian farmers and EHG had CHG too

what I don't understand about the WHG/villabruna, it's that they are too old, so can't be considered European.

also people pictured them with white skin, eyes and hair. but at that time, these features excluding light eyes didn't even existed, also the light eyes genes on WHG was found in few bodies, all the people on that period was pretty dark