Guys, I still don't understand the differences between some Mesolithic groups

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Did Villabruna, El Miron, Bichon, Vestonice, Ustshim, Goyet are all different or similar?

what's considered WHG it's just Villabruna? or these other groups are? :confused:

[Petalpusher]

Last 3 are different, older. Bichon is part of the "Villabruna cluster"

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e5eyAFFW1oI/VymqtNRDxaI/AAAAAAAADWc/vceJE6fwnkc9iqAgDz0AfLFvBjTFR2XrACLcB/s1600/Fu-2016-fig3.png

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5JAiLy6UDvI/VymmAneHJxI/AAAAAAAADWQ/x5bwuiN8KoYirm_aUEscX546yU5_ja59ACLcB/s1600/Fu-2016-fig1.png

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Last 3 are different, older. Bichon is part of the "Villabruna cluster"

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e5eyAFFW1oI/VymqtNRDxaI/AAAAAAAADWc/vceJE6fwnkc9iqAgDz0AfLFvBjTFR2XrACLcB/s1600/Fu-2016-fig3.png

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5JAiLy6UDvI/VymmAneHJxI/AAAAAAAADWQ/x5bwuiN8KoYirm_aUEscX546yU5_ja59ACLcB/s1600/Fu-2016-fig1.png

Interesting tha La Braña it's Villabruna cluster and not El Mirón :eek:

so basically, the older ancestry Europeans have nowadays it's from Villabruna, so WHG

about the Magdalenian, Aurignacian and Vestonice it's like a completely isolated and extinct archaic people. but they have contributed to some of Villabruna(WHG) inlfuences

[AphroditeWorshiper]

also, Satsurblia/Kotias(CHG) it's like a between Mal'ta and Villabruna

[Borealis]

Ust Ishm? No this has nothing to do with you. He is mainly connected to south asianniggers, like myself.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Ust Ishm? No this has nothing to do with you. He is mainly connected to south asianniggers, like myself.

he is the oldest Eurasian Human

[Petalpusher]

Interesting tha La Braña it's Villabruna cluster and not El Mirón :eek:

so basically, the older ancestry Europeans have nowadays it's from Villabruna, so WHG

about the Magdalenian, Aurignacian and Vestonice it's like a completely isolated and extinct archaic people. but they have contributed to some of Villabruna(WHG) inlfuences

You ll see a lot of that, things that could appaer surprising nowadays but that were not back then, like El Miron cluster very closely with some Germans HG of a similar period more so than immediate neighbours, probably the same tribe/group extended largely over the Europe of the time after the ice retreat, just makes no sense really to link nationalities to such old individuals yet at that point , they were WHGs as we know them today or they were not, regardless of their location. Most of the ancients groups have been replaced by those falling under the Villabrunians umbrella, only one more recent Goyet over Belgium seems to be more related to them. Maybe because they integrated some individuals of their group or it's just some of the Villabrunians moving over the same area than the 36ky old Goyet (names are just locations where they ve been found, need to keep that in mind)

Satsurblia is not a mix of the two, it leans to Malt'a over WHG's on the pca as there is nothing better to choose from, there s a faint signal of relatedness with AG3, but even East Eurasians would be preferred. In reality CHG is not much related to anything there, only even a little to Kotias (a neighbour sample), it's more derived from Basal Eurasian.

[Imperator Biff]

Villabruna and bichon are both WHG.
El miron seems to be a mix of WHG and older goyet aurignacians.
Kotias CHG evolved from a common macro clade with WHG as they are derived from dzudzuana HG and ANE like MA1.

[Token]

Bichon is part of the Villabruna cluster. El Miron is a mix of a deeply diverged HG clade (UHG) related to Villabruna and GoyetQ116-1. Vestonice is a mix of Sunghir and this deeply diverged UHG. Villabruna can be modelled as predominantly Gravettian with some admixture from a population related to AG3/Amerindians which was living in the northern mammoth steppe at the time. Goyet, Kostenki and Gravettian are closely related to each other. Ust Ishim was a 'barely' West Eurasian guy.

It is actually much more complicated than that but this sums it up.

[Petalpusher]

There are plenty of deeper explanations in the last Laziridis but this is a good summary:
https://indo-european.eu/2018/09/paleolithic-caucasus-samples-reveal-the-most-important-component-of-west-eurasians/


Dzudzuana shares ancestry with ‘Common West Eurasian’ (CWE). the ancestor cluster of Villabruna.
Dzudzuana diverges from CWE because of a Basal Eurasian ancestry contribution [which supports that Basal Eurasian ancestry was a deep Middle Eastern lineage].
Dzudzuana is closest to Anatolia Neolithic, and close to Gravettian.

Chronologically:

Aurignacian: First West Eurasians arrive ca. 36,000 BP, Goyet cluster expands probably with C1a2 lineages.
After that, the early or ‘unmixed’ Villabruna cluster (‘hidden’ somewhere probably east of Europe, either North Eurasia or South Eurasia), lineages unknown (possibly IJ), contributes to:
Gravettian (ca. 30,000 BP): Věstonice cluster expands, probably with IJ lineages.
A (hidden) ‘Common West Eurasian’ population.

In turn:

Dzudzuana ca. 26,000 BP derived from Common West Eurasian (curiously, haplogroup G seems to split in today’s subclades ca. 26,000 BP).
During the Gravettian (ca. 26,000 BP), an Anatolian Neolithic-like population exists already in the Near East. Both Věstonice and this Anatolian HG are close to Dzudzuana; in turn, Dzudzuana from CWE.

Magdalenian (ca. 20,000 BP): El Mirón cluster expands, probably with more specific I lineages.
Bølling-Allerød warming period (ca. 14,000 BP): ‘late’ Villabruna cluster or WHG (=CWE with greater affinity to Near Eastern populations) expands, probably spreading with R1b in mainland Europe and to the east (admixing with Siberian HG), creating the WHG — ANE ancestry cline, as reflected in Iron Gates HG, Baltic HG, etc.

EHG (ca. 8,000 BP) = between WHG — ANE (ca. 24,000 BP).
CHG (ca. 10,000 BP) = between EHG — Iran N.
I would say that the distinct CHG vs. Dzudzuana ancestry puts CHG probably to the south, within the Iranian Plateau, during the Gravettian, expanding probably later.

Something i figured a long time is that farmers and CHG is mostly the same thing, one is called "something-HG" because at that time, it's what they were doing but everybody was hunting before 10k BC, and usually that confuse people as one is called a hunter and the other a farmer as it's more recent, but it's mostly the same stuff. One is more of an Anatolian farmer getting some WHG stuff and the other is more derived from what would become Iranian farmers getting some EHG stuff but ultimately it's really not that different, and the core of all this is heavily Basal Eurasian and G related. Still need a sample of that Basal Eurasian to wrap this up and get better modeling (a sample, wich may or may not ever come)

[AphroditeWorshiper]

There are plenty of deeper explanations in the last Laziridis but this is a good summary:
https://indo-european.eu/2018/09/paleolithic-caucasus-samples-reveal-the-most-important-component-of-west-eurasians/



Something i figured a long time is that farmers and CHG is mostly the same thing, one is called "something-HG" because at that time, it's what they were doing but everybody was hunting before 10k BC, and usually that confuse people as one is called a hunter and the other a farmer as it's more recent, but it's mostly the same stuff. One is more of an Anatolian farmer getting some WHG stuff and the other is more derived from what would become Iranian farmers getting some EHG stuff but ultimately it's really not that different, and the core of all this is heavily Basal Eurasian and G related. Still need a sample of that Basal Eurasian to wrap this up and get better modeling (a sample, wich may or may not ever come)

Interesting

CHG it's just a Anatolian farmer with some ANE