Italy:south west or south east Europe ethnically?

[Foxy]

Basically there are two theories: the first and most classic puts Italy in Western Europe, denoting it as a south-West country. An other one puts at least all its oriental side in the South-Eastern sphere.

In the specific:

theory A

http://www.otkrivam.com/img/gallery/lesson_big_204_en.jpg

theory B

http://www.southeast-europe.net/imgs/map.png?1

Geographically Italy is considered mostly a central-south region.
But what are we ethnically?

[Sikeliot]

I think it's too simplistic to take the country as a whole and put it one way or another because I think you'd have to take it region by region.

The north is southwestern I'd say, due to historical and ethnic ties with southern France (Marseille, Nice, Corsica) but you could also call it south-central. The far south, at least genetically, is south-eastern European and all genetic studies have been pretty consistent with this. Not sure about the rest.

If by ethnically you are implying genetically, then there's a gradient, becoming more southeastern European the further south you go.

[Foxy]

The far south, at least genetically, is south-eastern European and all genetic studies have been pretty consistent with this. Not sure about the rest.

Can you be more specific?

[Sikeliot]

Can you be more specific?

I meant to say I have never seen a study that puts southerners closer to Spaniards/Portuguese/Southern French than to Greeks.

I'll just put it this way. In Turin you're in southwestern Europe, in Syracuse you're in southeastern Europe.

[Foxy]

I meant to say I have never seen a study that puts southerners closer to Spaniards/Portuguese/Southern French than to Greeks.

I'll just put it this way. In Turin you're in southwestern Europe, in Syracuse you're in southeastern Europe.

But Sicily isn't considered Eastern Europe. Apulia, on the contrary, is, and after all Otranto is as East as Danzig. Ethnically I am interested the most in central Italy...

[Sikeliot]

But Sicily isn't considered Eastern Europe. Apulia, on the contrary, is, and after all Otranto is as East as Danzig. Ethnically I am interested the most in central Italy...

In that case-

northern Italy - SW
central Italy - South-Central (transition)
southern Italy - SE

[Mordid]

I would say between.

[El Palleter]

northern Italy - SWSW because of Genoa and Liguria?

I'll remind you that northern Italy is much much bigger than just Genoa AND that Veneto has a noticeable Slavic and Balkanic influence. Some of this influence I've heard from Italians that it reaches at least the eastern parts of Lombardy (I can't tell to be honest)


central Italy - South-Central (transition)Whenever people use "central" they seem to be saying that since there are other people farther east (or west) of them, then they are not eastern (or western). It's just a distraction. Like "Central Europe"


southern Italy - SEMy disagreement here would be with Veleda's exclusion of SW Italy (Campania, Sicily)

The very close relationship of Calabrians, Apulians etc with Greece is not in detriment to the eastern orientation of other parts of S. Italy.

[Don]

Where is the South-Central Option?

[Comte Arnau]

I think you know my position already.

North Italians would be South-Westerners (let's forget about a 'Central Europe' now), given the Celtic substrate and the consequent nature of the Rhaeto-Padanian Romance. (However, the Venetic area would be somewhat different, as the history of it leans towards the Adriatic)

The rest of Italians would be Central Southerners, specially Central Italy (Tuscany and Corsica, Rome and the Marches...), as well as Sardinia (this island with a remarkable South-Western input, though). The 'Two Sicilies' would still be Central Southerners to me, but different from Central Italians, being transitional or with a strong tendency towards the South-East. Again, I mainly base myself on previous substrates and posterior ethnolinguistic evolutions.

[Nurzat]

if some romanians look greek, especially in the south and anyway only a very minor number, i can't say the same about italians. italians can't pass as balkan in most cases and they have an obvious different look, they would go better with spanish and southern french and even portuguese so i would say italy is OR western OR an ethnic isolate

[Sikeliot]

I think you know my position already.

North Italians would be South-Westerners (let's forget about a 'Central Europe' now), given the Celtic substrate and the consequent nature of the Rhaeto-Padanian Romance. (However, the Venetic area would be somewhat different, as the history of it leans towards the Adriatic)

The rest of Italians would be Central Southerners, specially Central Italy (Tuscany and Corsica, Rome and the Marches...), as well as Sardinia (this island with a remarkable South-Western input, though). The 'Two Sicilies' would still be Central Southerners to me, but different from Central Italians, being transitional or with a strong tendency towards the South-East. Again, I mainly base myself on previous substrates and posterior ethnolinguistic evolutions.

You explained my thoughts, probably better than I did.

[GeistFaust]

I would say West South Eastern they are the periphery of the West and East which puts them sort of in the middle. They do have a lot of Balkan looking individuals though in Italy I have noticed. And Dinaric is a very common sub type that is found throughout all of Italy.

[Hess]

Culturally, Italians have much more in common with Iberians than with people from the Balkans IMO

[Sikeliot]

Culturally, Italians have much more in common with Iberians than with people from the Balkans IMO

I see more commonalities with southern France, if you're to look west. At least with northerners. I can see something similar between Naples and Spain though.. but I don't think Italians, north or south, are culturally akin to Portugal other than Romance-speaking and Catholic (oh and, our fiery tempers!). Just my opinion of course.

[askra]

I can see something similar between Naples and Spain though..

which similarities can you see between spaniards and the neapolitans?

[Sikeliot]

which similarities can you see between spaniards and the neapolitans?

Some surnames, architecture, and the siesta (I think Neapolitans do this too?) :lol:

[Ibericus]

which similarities can you see between spaniards and the neapolitans?
Not much.

[Sikeliot]

I think a lot of the perceived similarity between Iberian and Italian cultures comes from the language, and the shared Catholicism. If you know one of the three languages (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian) the others are readable to some extent. But otherwise the spirit of the Iberian people is very different in my view.

But I think the question Veleda was asking was more ethnic than cultural.

[Hess]

I don't think any reasonable person can deny that Italians have more in common in Iberians than anyone else from the Balkans.

South Slavs, Albanians, Romanians, etc. Have a completely different mindset than the Italians, much more so than the Iberian countries

[Hess]

I don't think any reasonable person can deny that Italians have more in common in Iberians than anyone else from the Balkans.

South Slavs, Albanians, Romanians, etc. Have a completely different mindset than the Italians, much more so than the Iberian countries

[Sikeliot]

I feel like Italy can't be grouped in with anyone else and have it be a perfect fit. Like you can group Spain and Portugal, Britain and Ireland, Netherlands and Germany.. but I don't think Italy has a perfect match. Maybe it's best that way, and we shouldn't try to fit them one way or another. I think the fact that this poll question had to be asked tells us that.

But I also tend to go by genetics as well, and genetically, some Italians are close to Iberians.. others not so much.

[Star Valley]

Not including the cultural aspect of Italy (because it frankly does not count in determining this), on a geographic level it is in Southern Europe and seen as a Mediterranean peninsula nation. Half of Italy is slightly pulling towards the east of Europe but not quite. Italy is in the south-west of Europe. It also can be considered central at times because geographically it is placed right below, and follows along the longitude of Germany; Berlin (25 E) and Rome (27 E) are nearly parallel.
Politically (national borders) Italy still is Southern Europe, while most provinces are Western, others are bordering what are considered "Eastern" nations.

European countries are best classified when associated with the ocean they lay because each nation has a distinct deeply-rooted history and relevance; part of this is influentially based off of the ocean the nation occupied.
ex. The Scandanavian North Sea & Norwegian Sea, the British Isles North Sea & Atlantic, the Atlantic nations, the Mediterranean nations, the Black Sea Eastern European nations, and the Baltic Sea nations, etc...

Countries such as Germany, or provinces of Russia would be more debatable in many contexts because it determines where Eastern Europe falls. The Scandinavian peninsula nations are unquestionable, making Italy the more complicated peninsula to place.

[alzo zero]

I'll remind you that northern Italy is much much bigger than just Genoa AND that Veneto has a noticeable Slavic and Balkanic influence. Some of this influence I've heard from Italians that it reaches at least the eastern parts of Lombardy (I can't tell to be honest)
Mi piace quando la gente non sa un cazzo e parla. E parla. Parla ancora...

[alzo zero]

but I don't think Italy has a perfect match.
Un mio amico di Losanna dice che l'unica differenza tra loro e i lombardi è la lingua. Poi per quanto riguarda cultura e mentalità il Nord, fino alla Lombardia inclusa, ha molto in comune anche con la Francia sud-orientale. Culturalmente gran parte del Sud è affine alla Grecia. Il Centro e il Nordest sono le uniche parti davvero "originali" e difficili da accomunare ad altri Paesi in fatto di cultura, nonostante una leggera influenza austro-germanica nel Nordest.

Geneticamente non c'è molto da discutere.

[Ibericus]

I don't think any reasonable person can deny that Italians have more in common in Iberians than anyone else from the Balkans.

Then im not a reasonable person. I think South-Italians have a lot in common with Greeks, who are also Balkanic, last time I checked.

[alzo zero]

Then im not a reasonable person. I think South-Italians have a lot in common with Greeks, who are also Balkanic, last time I checked.
No you aren't. And anyway I don't have anything against the Balkanites but the last time I checked Southern Italy (which has more than a few things in common with Spain, culturally) was 1/3 of Italy. :rolleyes:

Now hush will you? Let me enjoy my pennichella with the sound of sweet mandolins in the background...

uRMOvqUvx9k

What? Is it called "siesta" and not pennichella? And that is a "bandurria" and not a mandolin? What a schoka!

[Peyrol]

Mi piace quando la gente non sa un cazzo e parla. E parla. Parla ancora...

Aahahahahaha invece di tante parole complicate hai usato una frase che avrebbe zittito Travaglio e Santoro ahahahah

[Mordid]

Gli italiani sono persone molto diverse che vanno dal nordico di importanti Armenoid labbro inferiore. Hanno tutti di tipo europeo.

[alzo zero]

Hi there Kosovo we missed you. :)

[Mordid]

Hi there Kosovo we missed you. :)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/converse.php?u=2374&u2=2470

I'm not him, stronzo...

[Sikeliot]

This thread was bound to cause arguments.

[alzo zero]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/converse.php?u=2374&u2=2470

I'm not him, stronzo...
Scusa zingaro? Cosa dici? Mi vuoi accoltellare con i cocci di una bottiglia di birra? Se ti do due euro ti levi dai coglioni? :)

[Don]

European countries are best classified when associated with the ocean they lay because each nation has a distinct deeply-rooted history and relevance; part of this is influentially based off of the ocean the nation occupied.
ex. The Scandanavian North Sea & Norwegian Sea, the British Isles North Sea & Atlantic, the Atlantic nations, the Mediterranean nations, the Black Sea Eastern European nations, and the Baltic Sea nations, etc...

Nice theory... but what about Spain?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iFCQmBA0Hb8/TS90dKoixfI/AAAAAAAABaU/JpGLlVS0EaQ/s1600/800px-Imperio_espa%25C3%25B1ol.png

[Mordid]

Scusa zingaro? Cosa dici? Mi vuoi accoltellare con i cocci di una bottiglia di birra? Se ti do due euro ti levi dai coglioni? :)

Listen moron, how many time have I said to you that I'm not him ? If you are accusing me of being him, then I'l report your post for faggotry.

[alzo zero]

Listen moron, how many time have I said to you that I'm not him ? If you are accusing me of being him, then I'l report your post for faggotry.
Perchè ora parli inglese? Non ti vergognare di aver imparato l'italiano lavando i vetri ai semafori.

[Ibericus]

European countries are best classified when associated with the ocean they lay because each nation has a distinct deeply-rooted history and relevance; part of this is influentially based off of the ocean the nation occupied.
ex. The Scandanavian North Sea & Norwegian Sea, the British Isles North Sea & Atlantic, the Atlantic nations, the Mediterranean nations, the Black Sea Eastern European nations, and the Baltic Sea nations, etc...
hmmm..how about countries with no sea ? Your theory sounds idiotic. And I don't know why Portugal is classified as Med nations, when it lays only in the Atlantic, and half of Spain is also Atlantic. Oh well.

[Mordid]

Perchè ora parli inglese? Non ti vergognare di aver imparato l'italiano lavando i vetri ai semafori.

Dont you think it's unfair to accusing someone of being something they aren't ? :rolleyes: Zakuta pała!

[alzo zero]

Ragazzi non so voi ma io pagherei per vedere la faccia di certa gente che spara minchiate in questo forum. Mi immagino già certe facce da teroni con una "r" sola...

[Mordid]

Ok, you're right. I am actualy Kosovo je Serbj. Could anyone please ban me ? :)

[alzo zero]

Ma che cazzo vuoi badante polacco chi parla con te?

[Hess]

Then im not a reasonable person. I think South-Italians have a lot in common with Greeks, who are also Balkanic, last time I checked.

I think south Italian culture and Greek culture certainly have some parallels, but North Italian culture is definitely closer to Iberian IMO.

[alzo zero]

I think south Italian culture and Greek culture certainly have some parallels, but North Italian culture is definitely closer to Iberian IMO.
Compared to the Balkans, yes. But definitely Southern Italy is culturally comparatively closer to Spain than Northern Italy is. Another example is at what time people have meals, go to work, etc..

[Peyrol]

Scusa zingaro? Cosa dici? Mi vuoi accoltellare con i cocci di una bottiglia di birra? Se ti do due euro ti levi dai coglioni? :)

"Spaco botilia, amazo familia, stupro moliere, destrugo casa" (citaz.)

[Ibericus]

Compared to the Balkans, yes. But definitely Southern Italy is culturally comparatively closer to Spain than Northern Italy is. Another example is at what time people have meals, go to work, etc..
lol, as if Spain was only one culture. I find it funny that you devide italian cultures, into North, Central, South, but yet you talk of Spain as one culture.

[alzo zero]

lol, as if Spain was only one culture. I find it funny that you devide italian cultures, into North, Central, South, but yet you talk of Spain as one culture.

Then im not a reasonable person. I think South-Italians have a lot in common with Greeks, who are also Balkanic, last time I checked.
It doesn't look like you got too specific about Italy here, did you? You only referred to 1/3 of the country so why should I go all specific on Spain?

Anyway what I said holds true, I can think of more cultural similarities between Southern Italy and most of Spain than between Northern Italy and most of Spain.

[R4ge]

Italy and Greece are the fathers of Western civilization in Europe, they don't encompass the "West" in terms of geography but they certainly contributed to "Western civilization" more than any other Europeans.

[El Palleter]

the last time I checked Southern Italy (which has more than a few things in common with Spain, culturally) was 1/3 of Italy. :rolleyes:However much or little part of Italy it is, the fact is that it's with Northern Italy that Southern Italy has more in common. Obvious as this is it might be too much common sense for you.

I'm sure that the Spanish presence may have left a few things there, why not? The same as did in Lombardy (Milanesado). And the opposite.

But that doesn't make Southern Italians closer to any other population than to Northern Italians.


What? Is it called "siesta" and not pennichella?Siesta comes from Latin "sexta" referring to the "sixth [hour]" of the day. Which is the hour after lunch when the heat is at its peak in the Summer.

Only someone whose view of the world is constrained by an enclosed valley mentality of isolation would find it too difficult to understand that the hard work required in the fields under the peak of the sun is dangerous and that a simple 20-30 minute sleep will make you recover energy and go through longer hours in the evening.


And that is a "bandurria" and not a mandolin? What a schoka!Or more commonly known as "lute" in English. Its origins are thought to be as ancient as Sumer and Babylon, and in Roman times there was the "pandura" (a likely etymological origin for bandurria). The Italian "mandolin" exists in different versions in Naples as well as Milan and Venice.

What's going to be your next "argument"? that any region where tomatoes or potatos are part of a local dish are common with Spain, because Spanish brought them from America?


I don't thinkRight :)

any reasonable person can deny that Italians have more in common in Iberians than anyone else from the Balkans.What sets the Balkans apart from Italy is the Slavic identity. Which is nevertheless present in a relatively small element in NE Italy.

What's most common with Iberians is that both have languages derived from Latin. But so do Romanians and no one in his right sense would argue that they are similar.


Geneticamente non c'è molto da discutere.True. Both allosomal and autosomal studies strongly suggest that all Italians lie on the eastern side, far away enough from Spaniards. And while N and S Italians are not a homogeneous group they still cluster together.

[Ibericus]

It doesn't look like you got too specific about Italy here, did you? You only referred to 1/3 of the country so why should I go all specific on Spain?

Anyway what I said holds true, I can think of more cultural similarities between Southern Italy and most of Spain than between Northern Italy and most of Spain.
It's actually Im being specific. I wasn't talking about whole Italy but only South-Italy . Instead you talk of the whole Spain as one culture. Anyways, it's clear that South Italians are closer to North Italians, after all they are the same country.

[El Palleter]

It doesn't look like you got too specific about Italy here, did you? You only referred to 1/3 of the country so why should I go all specific on Spain?I referred to 3/3 of Italy. But then you didn't like it :coffee:


Anyway what I said holds true, I can think of more cultural similarities between Southern Italy and most of Spain than between Northern Italy and most of Spain.But that's only because you want to pretend that you are oh so different to Southern Italians and in your desperation to move them somewhere you'd say anything.

At least Southern Italians have the dignity of not pretending to pass as others

[alzo zero]

However much or little part of Italy it is, the fact is that it's with Northern Italy that Southern Italy has more in common. Obvious as this is it might be too much common sense for you.
Non è assolutamente vero. Avete stili di vita molto simili, dimmi una cosa in comune tra settentrionali e meridionali e io saprò dirne sempre una più di te tra meridionali e spagnoli.


The same as did in Lombardy (Milanesado). And the opposite.
Non c'è paragone.


Siesta comes from Latin "sexta" referring to the "sixth [hour]" of the day. Which is the hour after lunch when the heat is at its peak in the Summer.

Only someone whose view of the world is constrained by an enclosed valley mentality of isolation would find it too difficult to understand that the hard work required in the fields under the peak of the sun is dangerous and that a simple 20-30 minute sleep will make you recover energy and go through longer hours in the evening.
Duro lavoro?? Chi?? Spagnoli e meridionali?? xD Lasciamo perdere che è meglio...


What sets the Balkans apart from Italy is the Slavic identity. Which is nevertheless present in a relatively small element in NE Italy.
Cazzata mondiale. Se c'è anche solo una piccola traccia di cultura balcanica nell'estremo Nordest deriva proprio dagli slavi Sloveni, non c'è niente che accomuni il Nord ai Balcani per il resto. Ma tu parli, parli, parli da buon spagnolo...


True. Both allosomal and autosomal studies strongly suggest that all Italians lie on the eastern side, far away enough from Spaniards. And while N and S Italians are not a homogeneous group they still cluster together.
Altra cazzata spudorata smontabile con una qualsiasi mappa genetica. Ma siete tutti così bugiardi al tuo paese?

[alzo zero]

I referred to 3/3 of Italy. But then you didn't like it :coffee:
Sì per dire cose che non stanno nè in cielo nè in terra. Menti sapendo di mentire come altri tuoi viscidi connazionali.


At least Southern Italians have the dignity of not pretending to pass as others
Il che è abbastanza ridicolo detto da uno spagnolo. Fattene una ragione fino a neanche trentanni fa avevate le pezze al culo, eravate dei morti di fame peggio dei meridionali e ora volete passare per francesi o qualcosa del genere ma chi vi conosce, e conosce il vostro aspetto, e conosce la vostra mentalità, e conosce la vostra cultura del lavoro sa che sono tutte cazzate. Fate ridere. Ciaaao. :)

[El Palleter]

Altra cazzata spudorata smontabile con una qualsiasi mappa genetica. Ma siete tutti così bugiardi al tuo paese?

(tr. another unblushing stupidity deconstructable with any genetic map. But are you all such liars in your country?)

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/Europegenetics.jpg

The rest I'll answer it when you address me in English (as it's the language that all understand here) AND you answer with actual arguments (not infantile rants)

[Raikaswinþs]

which similarities can you see between spaniards and the neapolitans?

I have a Neapolitan friend, and he remindsme a lot of my friends from Seville. That is a random fact that proves nothing, but its a fact nontheless :P

[Ibericus]

This getting ridiculous and embarassing. South Italy is closer to Tuscany, Central and North Italy, culturaly, genetically, linguistically. For God's sake, they are the same country after all ! Not Spain or Greece. Leave us alone.

[R4ge]

Why would Italians want to disassociate themselves from each other? Southern Italy was far superior to the North during the vast majority of history.

[alzo zero]

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/Europegenetics.jpg

The rest I'll answer it when you address me in English (as it's the language that all understand here) AND you answer with actual arguments (not infantile rants)
Bravo bugiardo. Il che prova la falsità di quello che tu affermavi e che io ho contestato, e cioè:

1. che settentrionali e meridionali formano un unico cluster
2. che gli spagnoli sono moooolto lontani da tutti gli italiani

Comunque non ti preoccupare, quest'immagine è molto più chiara:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2643/pca1v4b.png

Per il resto mi hai capito benissimo. Benvenuto nel forum italiano, a proposito.

[alzo zero]

they are the same country after all !
E allora?


Leave us alone.
Dovevi pensarci prima di immischiarti in faccende che non ti riguardano e parlare a cazzo, come tuo solito, degli italiani balcanici.

[alzo zero]

Why would Italians want to disassociate themselves from each other? Southern Italy was far superior to the North during the vast majority of history.
Infatti nessuno vuole disassociarsi ma semplicemente dire le cose come stanno. I've always stood in defense of Southern Italians in this forum, the other Italians know.

[Ibericus]

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/Europegenetics.jpg

The rest I'll answer it when you address me in English (as it's the language that all understand here) AND you answer with actual arguments (not infantile rants)
More :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygtg/Tcqj7WCS_jI/AAAAAAAADsU/WJDG6R2XnH0/s1600/waeu.png

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/1gcpj.png

genetic trees :

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2889/10dod4.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10933&d=1307548935

Custer galore :

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg860/scaled.php?server=860&filename=galore.png&res=medium

[Sikeliot]

Comunque non ti preoccupare, quest'immagine è molto più chiara:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2643/pca1v4b.png




The Spanish are between the Italians (probably northerners) and the French.. as always.. big surprise there!

[alzo zero]

More :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygtg/Tcqj7WCS_jI/AAAAAAAADsU/WJDG6R2XnH0/s1600/waeu.png

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/1gcpj.png

genetic trees :

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10933&d=1307548935

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2889/10dod4.jpg
Eh già! Gli italiani formano un solo cluster ovunque! Proprio come dice il quaqua spagnolo... :rolleyes:


The Spanish are between the Italians (probably northerners) and the French.. as always.. big surprise there!
Non so cosa tu stia guardando, qui i francesi sono a "nord" di entrambi. E comunque italiani e spagnoli sono lontanissimi, sissisi come no, sempre come dice il nostro cialtrone iberico.

[Sikeliot]

Here's another one.. the Italians here are Italian-Americans from New York, 4 grandparents defined. There is a SE European cluster (Italian American/Greek), a Northern European one, and the Spanish fall unsurprisingly between the 2.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dRj9DN75euI/R5JfZQ17QqI/AAAAAAAAASE/lAcoMz5UuMM/s1600/european%2Bpca.jpg

[alzo zero]

Here's another one.. the Italians here are Italian-Americans from New York, 4 grandparents defined.
E chissà da quale parte di Italia venivano i nonni di questi italo-americani... Mah chissà! LOL...

[Sikeliot]

If you're not going to say anything the rest of us can understand, why are you even bothering to post in this thread at all?

[Ibericus]

Eh già! Gli italiani formano un solo cluster ovunque! Proprio come dice il quaqua spagnolo... :rolleyes:


No, qui i francesi sono a "nord" di entrambi. E comunque italiani e spagnoli sono lontanissimi, sissisi come no, sempre come dice il nostro cialtrone iberico.
How strange. In the Cluster Galore some french seem to be in the Iberian cluster also, not italian. The South Italians and Greeks are in the same cluster :

See at the bottom of this sheet, the populations :

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadFh0d1V1NEw2andiRnVlanlKNXpON 1E&hl=en&authkey=CILR5asC#gid=0

[alzo zero]

If you're not going to say anything the rest of us can understand, why are you even bothering to post in this thread at all?
You understood but I'll repeat my short question to you: where do you think these Italian-Americans' grandparents come from? :rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

You understood but I'll repeat my short question to you: where do you think these Italian-Americans' grandparents come from? :rolleyes:


Southern Italy.

[alzo zero]

How strange. In the Cluster Galore some french seem to be in the Iberian cluster also, not italian. The South Italians and Greeks are in the same cluster
Anecdotal evidence doesn't count and anyway this is not the point. So what if a few Spaniards cluster with a few Southern French? This is not here nor there. I'm sure there are a few Northern Italians and a few Southern French who may have a close match too, so what? A lot depends on where the French, Italians and Spaniards are from in their respective countries. And where have I denied that Southern Italians and Greeks may be in the same cluster? You seem particularly slow to understand.



Southern Italy.
Bingo. And do you think the Northern Italians would be in the same cluster? Don't answer, it's a rhetoric question.

[Ibericus]

Anecdotal evidence doesn't count. And where have I denied that Southern Italians and Greeks may be in the same cluster? You seem particularly slow to understand.
Anecdotal ? That's what ALL the studies show, all have the same pattern, I think you are the one slow here.

[Sikeliot]

Anecdotal evidence doesn't count and anyway this is not the point. So what if a few Spaniards cluster with a few Southern French? This is not here nor there. I'm sure there are a few Northern Italians and a few Southern French who may have a close match too, so what? A lot depends on where the French, Italians and Spaniards are from in their respective countries. And where have I denied that Southern Italians and Greeks may be in the same cluster? You seem particularly slow to understand.





Exactly why Iberians, southern French, northern Italians are southwest Europeans, while southern Italians and Greeks are southeast Europeans.

[alzo zero]

Anecdotal ? That's what ALL the studies show, all have the same pattern, I think you are the one slow here.
No you are slow and cmariexo too, apparently.

[alzo zero]

Exactly why Iberians, southern French, northern Italians are southwest Europeans, while southern Italians and Greeks are southeast Europeans.
And so what have I said until now?

Try to follow me, s-l-o-w-l-y. I said that Chateaubriand was talking shit because:

1. he claimed Southern Italians and Northern Italians are in the same cluster;
2. he claimed that Italians, indistinctively, are very far from Spaniards.

Now prove that I was wrong when I said this is horseshit.

[Mordid]

Ma che cazzo vuoi badante polacco chi parla con te?

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/simonkr/simonkr0706/simonkr070600226/1133089-funny-nanny-isolated-on-white-background.jpg

[alzo zero]

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/simonkr/simonkr0706/simonkr070600226/1133089-funny-nanny-isolated-on-white-background.jpg
Almeno hai senso dell'umorismo...

[Ibericus]

No you are slow and cmariexo too, apparently.
No, you said Basques, Galicians, Asturians, Catalans, Castillians ,etc are closer to South Italy than North Italians are. Well, everyone has seen it.

[alzo zero]

No, you said Basques, Galicians, Asturians, Catalans, Castillians ,etc are closer to South Italy than North Italians are. Well, everyone has seen it.
Ho detto culturalmente, fottuto idiota. Scusate ma quando ci vuole ci vuole... E comunque non avrei incluso baschi e galiziani perchè non conosco la loro cultura.

[Hess]

What sets the Balkans apart from Italy is the Slavic identity. Which is nevertheless present in a relatively small element in NE Italy.What's most common with Iberians is that both have languages derived from Latin. But so do Romanians and no one in his right sense would argue that they are similar.

Nope, not just the Slavic Identity. Albania has no Slavic Identity but is still very far from Italy on a cultural level.

It's not just about languages, it's also about mentality- and going by mentality, I believe that Italians have more in common With Iberians than with other countries in the Balkans, even Greece.

They are not completely similar, of course, but if i had to choose I would put Italy together with Iberia rather than with the Balkans.

[Mordid]

Almeno hai senso dell'umorismo...

At least you're a stupid troll who accusing someone of being something they aren't for no reason..

[Ibericus]

Culturalmente, fottuto idiota.
http://www.niubie.com/up/2008/11/facepalm.jpg

[Sikeliot]

In this map, you have Spaniards, north Italians, Tuscans, Greeks, and then Armenians and other groups at the bottom.. Tuscans don't overlap with Spain at all, and northern Italians do slightly.. so where do you think the southerners would cluster?

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/Europe_PCA.jpg

[Ibericus]

Nope, not just the Slavic Identity. Albania has no Slavic Identity but is still very far from Italy on a cultural level.
.
Now that you talk about Albania, you should know about the Arbereshe people , the albanian community of Italy, around 260.000 people, living in South Italy. They are not your average immigrants, they settled in Southern Italy in the 15th to 18th centuries AD

[Sikeliot]

Nope, not just the Slavic Identity. Albania has no Slavic Identity but is still very far from Italy on a cultural level.

It's not just about languages, it's also about mentality- and going by mentality, I believe that Italians have more in common With Iberians than with other countries in the Balkans, even Greece.

They are not completely similar, of course, but if i had to choose I would put Italy together with Iberia rather than with the Balkans.

Assuming this is true, I still think genetics/biology matters more. Italians can move far from Italy, lose their "Iberian-like" mentality as you would say they have, but the genetic aspect remains the same no matter where you go.

But I really, really don't think a Calabrese person has more in common mentally with a Spaniard and certainly not a Portuguese, than with a Greek. I'm just not seeing it.

[alzo zero]

In this map, you have Spaniards, north Italians, Tuscans, Greeks, and then Armenians and other groups at the bottom.. Tuscans don't overlap with Spain at all, and northern Italians do slightly.. so where do you think the southerners would cluster?
I don't know and I don't care. There are hundreds of other genetic maps around, in many cases better and more complete than this one, and the fact you're using this one and not another one smells like you are out to prove something.


Assuming this is true, I still think genetics/biology matters more. Italians can move far from Italy, lose their "Iberian-like" mentality as you would say they have, but the genetic aspect remains the same no matter where you go.
I don't think all Italians have an "Iberian-like" mentality at all. And even Hess was just speaking in comparative terms. What does the fact that Calabria is culturally close to Greece tell me? Lombardia is culturally close to Switzerland, Piemonte is culturally close to France and Friuli is culturally close to Austria and Slovenia, so? What's that supposed to mean?

[Sikeliot]

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/NE_Europe.png

Spain is as usual between northern Italy and France. It's always this way..

[Ibericus]

I don't know and I don't care. There are hundreds of other genetic maps around, in many cases better and more complete than this one, and the fact you're using this one and not another one smells like you are out to prove something.
ok, more, all have the same pattern, it doesn't matter how many :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SgPtrXOvDUI/AAAAAAAABbo/mDAK-MpRf9k/s1600/journal. pone.0005472.s007.jpg

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2544/laoplotvu4.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2957/euro12largewithethnicit.png

[alzo zero]

Spain is as usual between northern Italy and France. It's always this way..
Even assuming it is true and it doesn't depend on sampling, and that I could post (and have already posted) maps where this is not confirmed so what? This is not how it started in the first place but you're probably too dishonest or stupid to realize it. Northern Italy is closer to Austria, Southern Italy is closer to Greece, Iran is closer to India, Sudan to Egypt... So what? I give up.

[alzo zero]

ok, more, all have the same pattern, it doesn't matter how many :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SgPtrXOvDUI/AAAAAAAABbo/mDAK-MpRf9k/s1600/journal. pone.0005472.s007.jpg

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2544/laoplotvu4.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2957/euro12largewithethnicit.png
If I had been so publicly exposed to be an idiot like you have a few posts back (you couldn't even tell the difference between culture and genetics) I would have gone hiding by now. Only this. Scemo senza vergogna. :P

[Ibericus]

Even assuming it is true and it doesn't depend on sampling, and that I could post (and have already posted maps where this is not confirmed) so what? Northern Italy is closer to Austria, Southern Italy is closer to Greece, Iran is closer to India, Sudan to Egypt... So what?
You are getting ridiclous, Knowledge_Zero. You can't go back now. You said Spaniards (remember that includes Basques, Galicians, Cantabrians, etc) are culturally closer to South-Italians, than North-Italians are. I mean are you freaking kidding me ? The NW of Iberia is even closer to Brittany or Wales than to South-Italy. And Catalonia is much closer to South-France. And Basques ? No comments.

[Sikeliot]

You are getting ridiclous, Knowledge_Zero. You can't go back now. You said Spaniards (remember that includes Basques, Galicians, Cantabrians, etc) are culturally closer to South-Italians, than North-Italians are. I mean are you freaking kidding me ? The NW of Iberia is even closer to Brittany or Wales than to South-Italy. And Catalonia is much closer to South-France. And Basques ? No comments.

Isn't it obvious? "Culture" to some means religion and language. Anything else, not important enough to take note of. Galician, Cantabrian, Asturian culture still has many Celtic elements, like Brittany and Wales. Catalunya and Valencia are much closer to Aquitaine than to Calabria or Apulia. I'd like to know which Iberians it is that the comparison is drawn between.

[alzo zero]

You are getting ridiclous, Knowledge_Zero. You can't go back now. You said Spaniards (remember that includes Basques, Galicians, Cantabrians, etc) are culturally closer to South-Italians, than North-Italians are. I mean are you freaking kidding me ? The NW of Iberia is even closer to Brittany or Wales than to South-Italy. And Catalonia is much closer to South-France. And Basques ? No comments.
You truly are a mongoloid. Are those cultural maps or bloody genetic maps? Now pick up a long stick, lift up your Spanish kilt and...

[Sikeliot]

I don't see how culture is part of this discussion honestly.. if the question pertains to ethnicity.. Cape Verde has many things in common with Portugal.. does that make them southwest Europeans too? The Philippines is culturally similar in some ways to Latin America.. but they're still Southeast Asians.

[Mordid]

You truly are a mongoloid. Are those cultural maps or bloody genetic maps? Now pick up a long stick, lift up your Spanish kilt and...

So, everyone is a mongoloid because they tell the truth, right ? You're a moron... :laugh:

[alzo zero]

So, everyone is a mongoloid because they tell the truth, right ? You're a moron... :laugh:
What truth? He just can't understand plain Italian. And plain English neither. Like you.

[El Palleter]

If you're not going to say anything the rest of us can understand, why are you even bothering to post in this thread at all?Well the reason why he has addressed me in Italian and why he has brought the argument down to insults lies in his character.

If it had been a Southern Italian who had conducted himself in such a manner he would have been quick to point the misbehaviour to a Meridional or Southern Italian character.

Which goes to prove how close they are culture and character-wise Southern and Northern Italians despite their claims of the opposite.


Try to follow me, s-l-o-w-l-y. I said that Chateaubriand was talking shit because:

1. he claimed Southern Italians and Northern Italians are in the same cluster;I did say "while N and S Italians are not a homogeneous group they still cluster together."

Perhaps you need to look at the definition of "cluster" but even that will not assure that you'll understand that while the definition implies a close similarity, it does not speculate as to the exact (or rough thereby) distance of the similarity.

Which is right

2. he claimed that Italians, indistinctively, are very far from Spaniards.Again my words were "far away enough from Spaniards".

Which is right too

Now prove that I was wrong when I said this is horseshit.Done above (again)

[Ibericus]

You truly are a mongoloid. Are those cultural maps or bloody genetic maps? Now pick up a long stick, lift up your Spanish kilt and...
hmm...honestly, I think im discussing with a retarded person. We have talked about genetics and culture already. What else do you want ?

[Mordid]

The truth is that there is no difference between North Italians and South Italians, although North Italians has more Dinarid/Alpinid type and South Italians has more Med/Armenoid type but on average, they are basically same.

[GeistFaust]

Some surnames, architecture, and the siesta (I think Neapolitans do this too?) :lol:

I think Italians better represent Balkan countries than more Western Med cultures but since they are a unique hybrid of the two they create a distinct mix overall.

[Sikeliot]

I think Italians better represent Balkan countries than more Western Med cultures but since they are a unique hybrid of the two they create a distinct mix overall.

Which is why threads like this one exist. Because there's no clear-cut and undisputed answer.. it would be like asking if Finns are closer to Eastern Europeans or to other Scandinavians.. you'd hear answers both ways.

[alzo zero]

If it had been a Southern Italian who had conducted himself in such a manner he would have been quick to point the misbehaviour to a Meridional or Southern Italian character.

Which goes to prove how close they are culture and character-wise Southern and Northern Italians despite their claims of the opposite.
This just makes no sense and it just goes to show that you're paranoid.


I did say "while N and S Italians are not a homogeneous group they still cluster together."
You are a clown now trying to twist the very meaning of words to fit your subjective view. If Southern Italians and Northern Italians cluster together so do Northern Italians and French or Northern Italians and Austrians, which is not what one usually intends by saying "to cluster together".


Again my words were "far away enough from Spaniards".

Which is right too
No it's ridiculous and subjective and you are a presumptuous twat. I was actually doing a favor to you by giving some sense to your blurb but if you read it like that it just makes no sense. What does "enough" mean to our purpose? Is it measurable? It means all and nothing.

[GeistFaust]

Which is why threads like this one exist. Because there's no clear-cut and undisputed answer.. it would be like asking if Finns are closer to Eastern Europeans or to other Scandinavians.. you'd hear answers both ways.

That is correct from my what I have heard Italian cuisine is more Western but at the same time it depends on the region in Italy you go to. I am not an expert on this by no means since I have not experienced this in real life but Italians tend to be more focused on the family than individual goals and they have a high emotional and energy level. I think in general you can say Italians share similarities with Greeks and Albanians also due to the immigration of Albanians and Greeks to parts of Italy but at the same time you could say they share cultural similarities with Western Med peoples like the Portuguese, Spanish, and even Southern French in some areas and regions.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Iberia? Greece? Why so much arguing? Is one of the choices supposed to be more fashionable? Relatedness to already one deadweight peninsula is not enough?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/a/a7/GDP_per_inhabitant%2C_in_PPS%2C_by_NUTS_2_regions% 2C_2006.PNG

[Sikeliot]

That is correct from my what I have heard Italian cuisine is more Western but at the same time it depends on the region in Italy you go to. I am not an expert on this by no means since I have not experienced this in real life but Italians tend to be more focused on the family than individual goals and they have a high emotional and energy level. I think in general you can say Italians share similarities with Greeks and Albanians also due to the immigration of Albanians and Greeks to parts of Italy but at the same time you could say they share cultural similarities with Western Med peoples like the Portuguese, Spanish, and even Southern French in some areas and regions.

Exactly right.

[El Palleter]

This just makes no sense and it just goes to show that you're paranoid.Speak for yourself. You'll find that it makes sense to most people but yourself.

And I'm the one who's been arguing rationally all along. You've just gone ballistic since your first post. Obviously you have no control of yourself.


You are a clown now trying to twist the very meaning of words to fit your subjective view.Twist? I've quoted my words verbatim.


If Southern Italians and Northern Italians cluster together so do Northern Italians and French or Northern Italians and Austrians, which is not what one usually intends by saying "to cluster together".What's with you guys wanting to be others?

By the way, I've never seen the map that you've posted in any genetic study. Could you give the source? (just to make sure that it wasn't drawn by the pizza cook next corner to you :))


No it's ridiculous and subjective and you are a presumptuous twat. I was actually doing a favor to you by giving some sense to your blurb but if you read it like that it just makes no sense.Life is full of things that will never make sense to you. Worry not little one :)


What does "enough" mean to our purpose? Is it measurable? It means all and nothing.Enough to argue that Spaniards are exactly Spaniards and well differentiated from Italians and others.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Enough to argue that Spaniards are exactly Spaniards and well differentiated from Italians and others.

I hope so, when you already cluster politically with Neapolitans and Sicilians the last thing you need is clustering with Spain or Greece too.

[Sikeliot]

I hope so, when you already cluster politically with Neapolitans and Sicilians the last thing you need is clustering with Spain or Greece too.

If you cluster with Neapolitans and Sicilians you already cluster with Greece. ;)

[Falkata]

Compared to the Balkans, yes. But definitely Southern Italy is culturally comparatively closer to Spain than Northern Italy is. Another example is at what time people have meals, go to work, etc..

That´s more related with the weather I guess. Siesta is something more typical in the south specially in the summer because the temperatures reaches 40º or more in places like Seville during the mid-day. Basically it´s impossible to stay outside let alone to to do any physical actvity

[Ibericus]

Conclusion, Spaniards are closer to spaniards. Italians are Italians (wether south, north, or central). It seems though that some italians (alzo zero) hate South Italy and want to make it look like it was the 18th autonomy of Spain. Truth is, South Italy will always be closer to Northern Italy than any other country. Saying the contrary is just complexes.

[Ratnasiri]

Italy is in the middle of south Europe, It's not west or east. It's just south.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

If you cluster with Neapolitans and Sicilians you already cluster with Greece. ;)

Oh well I don't care that much about haplogroups or cephalic indexes and haven't made up my mind about which peripheral lump of Europe would be more fashionable, maybe I should look more attentively to the street riots.

[alzo zero]

And I'm the one who's been arguing rationally all along.
Maybe in your country it would be considered "rational".


Twist? I've quoted my words verbatim.
Nothing tells you are a cool dude like putting Latin words in bold.


What's with you guys wanting to be others?
Don't project your psychotic behavior on me.


By the way, I've never seen the map that you've posted in any genetic study. Could you give the source? (just to make sure that it wasn't drawn by the pizza cook next corner to you :))
Here's some fresh maps, straight outta the tapas bar around the corner (also known as the Eurogenes Genetic Ancestry Project and the Dienekes Project):

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/1728/62683108.png

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2643/pca1v4b.png

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3687/pca.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygtg/Tcqj7WCS_jI/AAAAAAAADsU/WJDG6R2XnH0/s1600/waeu.png

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3221/eume.png

In the last one there isn't a Northern Italian sample, but you can get an idea nonetheless. What idea? That 1) Southern Italians and Northern Italians don't cluster together; and 2) that Iberians are by no means far, not even "enough" from Northern Italians (and from Tuscans neither). Just like I said.


Life is full of things that will never make sense to you. Worry not little one :)

Enough to argue that Spaniards are exactly Spaniards and well differentiated from Italians and others.
I'm sure these are all very funny jokes where you come from, unfortunately I don't get them. Must be our cultural differences...

[alzo zero]

If you cluster with Neapolitans and Sicilians you already cluster with Greece. ;)
I thought you were a native English speaker. The guy said "politically" didn't he?

[alzo zero]

It seems though that some italians (alzo zero) hate South Italy and want to make it look like it was the 18th autonomy of Spain.
Bugiardo schifoso.

[hajduk]

It seems no one wants to be associated with the cespoll of Europe 'The Balkans"
:D

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

It seems no one wants to be associated with the cespoll of Europe 'The Balkans"
:D

I'd just love to share your haplogroups and/or skull shape, as long as I'm staying in the European core, the "Banana" and this side of the Hajnal Line (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=159954#post159954) for all that matters.

[Ibericus]

Bugiardo schifoso.
Liar. You said Basque, Galician, Asturian, Cantabrian, Catalan, Castillian, etc culture a.k.a Spanish culture, is closer to South Italy, than North Italy is. Now you have realized what you said is total bullshit, and you call other liars.

[alzo zero]

Liar. You said Basque, Galician, Asturian, Cantabrian, Catalan, Castillian, etc culture a.k.a Spanish culture, is closer to South Italy, than North Italy is. Now you i've realized what you said is total bull
Lost cause.

[Ibericus]

Lost cause.
Right, im a lost cause. How about this, you said it clearly :


Ho detto culturalmente, fottuto idiota

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Neither our southern fellow-countrymen nor our western neighbors could vaunt a genuine relatedness with our Dinaric brethren, such as one manifest by clear and unmistakable proof:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS87K6cq84BS0I4HsQgfjSrNsOzGYFps lvv6WJ7Wv7lvcrdpPMbPQ http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUuPWgHp5D1icq5qdteczySzZbWBpv-XnINSXQjec_rly7ByF7

[alzo zero]

How about this, you said it clearly :
Sì, e quindi? I've said that Southern Italy is culturally closer to "most of Spain" than Northern Italy is. So? How's a bloody genetic map supposed to contradict this?

Please can anyone else except for this poor demented person and his fellow equally demented countryman thanking his demented post tell me what's the bloody point?

[El Palleter]

Maybe in your country it would be considered "rational".Rational more than enough when compared to the list of insults and other filthy comments that have come from you.

I'll blame it on the exuberance of your national character.


Nothing tells you are a cool dude like putting Latin words in bold.Though Latin in origin the word is used in English and is listed in English dictionaries.

It means word for word or literally, which is what I meant to highlight (not that it was Latin)

I could have never guessed that it would offend you


Don't project your psychotic behavior on me.I defer to the evidence


Here's some fresh mapsI asked for an actual professional study not for internet amateur stuff


In the last one there isn't a Northern Italian sample, but you can get an idea nonetheless. What idea? That 1) Southern Italians and Northern Italians don't cluster together; and 2) that Iberians are by no means far, not even "enough" from Northern Italians (and from Tuscans neither). Just like I said.See above.

And also take into account that since autosomal tests do include information that's dependant on, or subject to, genetical mutations due to environmental and other factors: 1) distances of Northern and Southern Italians with Spaniards would be even larger, 2) distances of Northern Italians with Southern Italians would be even shorter, and 3) distances of Northern Italians with others (French, whatever) would also be even larger.


I'm sure these are all very funny jokes where you come from, unfortunately I don't get them. Must be our cultural differences...It wouldn't make sense in Spanish if translated literally

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

It seems though that some italians (alzo zero) hate South Italy and want to make it look like it was the 18th autonomy of Spain.

I know it's scary. Southerners would never agree, there's far too little to leech.

[alzo zero]

Quando si nega l'evidenza e persino la propria identità non rimane che lasciar perdere. Compatirli e lasciar perdere.

[Mordid]

Sorry, I dont speak wogski. :)

[alzo zero]

Sorry, I dont speak wogski. :)
Then you should go check out a more celtoaryan-like forum, like the Spanish one for example. Or the zing... ahem Polish forum.

[El Palleter]

Sì, e quindi? I've said that Southern Italy is culturally closer to "most of Spain" than Northern Italy is. So? How's a bloody genetic map supposed to contradict this?It doesn't. It just adds up to the overall distance.


Please can anyone else except for this poor demented person and his fellow equally demented countryman thanking his demented post tell me what's the bloody point?The point is that you've been presented with well reasoned arguments and evidence all through and you have responded with insults, filthy comments and a total disrespect for everyone and everything including reason.

Your behaviour, your character is an utter shame. And it's cultural.

It's also an example (even an extreme one) of the cultural negativeness that northern Italians blame on southern Italians.

[Ibericus]

Sì, e quindi? I've said that Southern Italy is culturally closer to "most of Spain" than Northern Italy is. So? How's a bloody genetic map supposed to contradict this?
I was talking also about culture, after talking about genetics. How is Southern Italy culturally closer to Spain than to Northern Italy ? This is ridiculous.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

It's also an example (even an extreme one) of the cultural negativeness that northern Italians blame on southern Italians.
Of course that's explainable, he's from the Milanesado.

[Lábaru]

sorry, i dont speak wogski. :)

:) 更好地理解你的语言？

[Lábaru]

I was talking also about culture, after talking about genetics. How is Southern Italy culturally closer to Spain than to Northern Italy ? This is ridiculous.

xD

[Amapola]

God's sake. :eek:


non sa un cazzo

Se ti do due euro ti levi dai coglioni?

Ma che cazzo vuoi badante

Cazzata mondiale

Duro lavoro?? Chi?? Spagnoli e meridionali?? Lasciamo perdere che è meglio...

Il che è abbastanza ridicolo detto da uno spagnolo

e conosce la vostra cultura del lavoro sa che sono tutte cazzate.

-I would be deeply interested in knowing what is our working culture and what you know about it!


Bravo bugiardo.

he non ti riguardano e parlare a cazzo, come tuo solito

come dice il nostro cialtrone iberico.

No you are slow and cmariexo too, apparently.

Ho detto culturalmente, fottuto idiota

You truly are a mongoloid. Are those cultural maps or bloody genetic maps? Now pick up a long stick, lift up your Spanish kilt and...

You are a clown now trying to twist the very meaning of words to fit your subjective view.

and you are a presumptuous twat

Bugiardo schifoso.

Please can anyone else except for this poor demented person and his fellow equally demented countryman thanking his demented post tell me what's the bloody point?

Is this low, dominant and semi-aggresive way to conduct yourself the result of your specific superior North Italian working culture or any culture whatsoever?

Man, you should take a nap and a couple of tapas. :cool:

[Mordid]

:) 更好地理解你的语言？

なし！

[alzo zero]

It doesn't.
Right, so we agree that your pal is bullshitting as usual.


The point is that you've been presented with well reasoned arguments and evidence all through and you have responded with insults, filthy comments and a total disrespect for everyone and everything including reason.
I'm starting to get worried because of the continuous lying coming from the Spanish camp. May it be a national character? My arguments are as sound as yours, probably more since you were basing all your genetic evidence on one single map. Likewise I've posted a map taken from a peer reviewed study as well which appeared in the Eurogenes project.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3687/pca.png


Your behaviour, your character is an utter shame. And it's cultural.
For Chrissake do you realize you are Spanish? xD

Do you think yourself as a rational German or something like that? Look around you, look at your angry countrymen in this forum... Your state of denial is sad indeed.


Of course that's explainable, he's from the Milanesado.
No I'm from the province of Brescia thanks god.


This is ridiculous.
I'll concede that truth is funny sometimes... :)

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Is this low, dominant and semi-aggresive way to conduct yourself the result of your specific superior North Italian working culture or any culture whatsoever?

Of course. We are beyond good and evil.

lqY5ZxHZSbU

[Peyrol]

Southern Italy (and for southern i mean the far south, Sicilia, Calabria,Lucania/Basilicata and Puglia), genetically, have more in common with Greece and Creta than France or Iberia, this is a fact.

[Lábaru]

Deserves a study from the psychological point of view this rejection of the Italians among them, I guess not all Italians suffer from this complex with their South do not doubt that many Italians consider south italy their brothers.

As a Spanish, I think the south of Spain are my closest brothers.

[Ibericus]

I'll concede that truth is funny sometimes... :)
What is funny is your display of inferiority complex towards the southern part of your country. Personally, if I was italian I would feel very offended by your comments.

[alzo zero]

As a Spanish, I think the south of Spain are my closest brothers.
Comparing the genetic relationship between north and south in Spain and Italy makes no sense at all. Just look at history, at culture, at any genetic map you want. It's a fact. And you may insist that I don't like the Southerners, it just adds to the lies of your countrymen in this thread.


What is funny is your display of inferiority complex towards the southern part of your country.
I like it how you are continuously using this expression. Another case of a Spaniard projecting on me, or you just like the sound of it?

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Deserves a study from the psychological point of view this rejection of the Italians among them, I guess not all Italians suffer from this complex with their South do not doubt that many Italians consider south italy their brothers.

As a Spanish, I think the south of Spain are my closest brothers.

Feeling bothered hearing the Italian South being associated with Spain? Very well. I understand you. Just don't ask us to like them. Or draw any conclusions from our capture of the Two Sicilies in the 19th Century. There we pwned them. Now they might get back their independence.

[Peyrol]

Deserves a study from the psychological point of view this rejection of the Italians among them, I guess not all Italians suffer from this complex with their South do not doubt that many Italians consider south italy their brothers.

As a Spanish, I think the south of Spain are my closest brothers.

Labaru, i wrote my point of wiev about in 10.000 thread...i haven't nothing against southern, i'm only writing that the Greek heritage is very strong in southern Italy, and not in the North.

(greek genetic in Italy)
http://s1.wdstatic.com/images/it/ll/b/b6/Mappageneticaitalia.jpg

Say this is quite different to say "Terroni di merda africani marrani maledetti" (like some "northerners" usually do, like Mario Borghezio of the Lega Nord :laugh:), there is an abyss.

I'm a melange of northern and central Italians, i'm the last person that can make fun or be racist against central/southern italians.

[Ibericus]

Feeling bothered hearing the Italian South being associated with Spain? Very well. Just don't ask us to like them. Or draw any conclusions from our capture of the Two Sicilies in the 19th Century.
Do you guys realize that Southern Italy, is also Italy ? And that they speak the same language as North Italians ? And have much more in common with them than with Spaniards ? Your complexes are ridiculous. Only Tribuno seems to have some common sense. You don't like the South of your country so you try to pass them for Spaniards. I tell, you don't know a shit about Spanish culture.
The cultures of Basques, Catalans, Galicians, Asturians, Cantabrians, Castillians are completely different than Southern-Italy. Not only culture, but climate, mentality, genetics, etc.

[Peyrol]

Beh...some southern, like general Armando Diaz (a italian hero), could easly pass as spaniards :D:D:D

http://www.corrieredelsud.it/site/uploads/article/image/04-generale%20armando%20diaz.png

http://www.lagrandeguerra.info/img/65.jpg

[Foxy]

I think south Italian culture and Greek culture certainly have some parallels, but North Italian culture is definitely closer to Iberian IMO.


Compared to the Balkans, yes. But definitely Southern Italy is culturally comparatively closer to Spain than Northern Italy is. Another example is at what time people have meals, go to work, etc..


It doesn't look like you got too specific about Italy here, did you? You only referred to 1/3 of the country so why should I go all specific on Spain?

Anyway what I said holds true, I can think of more cultural similarities between Southern Italy and most of Spain than between Northern Italy and most of Spain.

Every Italian or foreign person who has lived a bit in Italy knows that culturally Spaniards remember far more Southern Italians than Northern Italians, as my country man was saying, and here we both agree, from North and from Central Italy: same habits, same extroverted personality, both are friendly, etc. etc. On the other hand Spain left almost no cultural trace in Northern Italy, which is closer to Austria, at least Lombardy, Veneto, Friuli and Trentino. Neaples, instead, has been for century the capital of the Borbonic kingdom and Spanish lefts are very numerous. The central borough of Neaples is called "Spanish Borough" becouse was settled by Spanish troops.

But here I wanted to focus on ETHNICITY. I think that a proof that Italians are western Europeans come from the high percentage of R1b in the whole peninsula, while R1a, typically slavo-balcanian, are very low.

http://www.skeptik.ee/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/europe.jpg

Distribution of R1a follows very well the Easter European area as well as the haplogroup I2a (and Sardinians seem to be a perfect mix of Western and Easter europeans).

However the haplogroup I2b (Balkanian) has an irregular concentration in Italy, following this line:

http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Graphics/I-map.jpg

So also a part of central Italians and the North Eastern Italians can be considered a perfect mix of Eastern and Western Europeans, and in the autosomal Central Italians often fall between Balkanians and Portugueses. However to be fully Eastern Europeans we should have more R1a. About the other Italians (North Westers and Southerns) in my opinion they are more westerns than easterns.

[Star Valley]

Ehiiiiii
Isn't the topic about Italy? Also, geography isn't arguable, it's visual and common sense.

[alzo zero]

Not only culture, but climate, mentality, genetics, etc.
I've already answered. As for climate, have you ever seen a map of Europe? Do you actually know where Northern Italy is? Ever heard of the 45° parallel in Spain?

[El Palleter]

Right, so we agree that your pal is bullshitting as usual.If you still don't understand that the genetic distance that's been argued is in addition to the cultural distance then you have a problem beyond fix.


I'm starting to get worried because of the continuous lying coming from the Spanish camp. May it be a national character? My arguments are as sound as yours, probably more since you were basing all your genetic evidence on one single map.I've based it on a map from an actual genetic study, as well as others not posted by me.


Likewise I've posted a map taken from a peer reviewed study as well which appeared in the Eurogenes project.You've posted a lot of maps that are amateur-made even if well intentioned. Then you've dropped one in the middle with insufficient data (as per your own admittance).

I don't mean to disrespect or diminish Italians (northern, southern or otherwise) when I say that we are different and distinct. Try at least to show some dignity for God's sake!

Seen that you have none


For Chrissake do you realize you are Spanish? xDThat stands obvious when compared to your flashy Italian style (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=440171&postcount=131)


Do you think yourself as a rational German or something like that?I don't even think that Germans are rational. Why you ask?


Look around you, look at your angry countrymen in this forum... Your state of denial is sad indeed.I still have to see one coming as as low as this: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=440171&postcount=131

But sure I'm aware of some levels of italianisation and germanisation having permeated the Spanish society of the modern days. It's vulgarisation or, as Hegel saw it, the democratic character of Germans and Italians.

[Foxy]

The Haplogroup I of central Italy:
I2b1I2b1 (M223) has a peak in Germany and another in eastern Sweden, but also appears in Russia, Greece, Italy and around the Black Sea.[17] Haplogroup I2b1 has been found in over 4% of the population only in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, England (not including Wales or Cornwall), Scotland, and the southern tips of Sweden and Norway in Northwest Europe; the provinces of Normandy, Maine, Anjou, and Perche in northwestern France; the province of Provence in southeastern France; the regions of Tuscany, Umbria, and Latium in Italy; and Moldavia and the area around Russia's Ryazan Oblast and Republic of Mordovia in Eastern Europe. Of historical note, both haplogroups I1 and I2b appear at a low frequency in the historical regions of Bithynia and Galatia in Turkey, possibly descendants of the ancient Gauls of Thrace, several tribes of which are recorded to have immigrated to those parts of Anatolia at the invitation of Nicomedes I of Bithynia.

Haplogroup I2b1 also occurs among approximately 1% of the Sardinians. The subclade divergence for M223 occurred 14.6±3.8 kya (Rootsi 2004). Haplogroup I2b1 can be further subdivided in 5 subgroups. Haplogroup I2b1* with no further known polymorphisms, Haplogroup I2b1a with M284 polymorphism with an undergroup Haplogroup I2b1a1 with the L126/S165, L137/S166 polymorphisms, Haplogroup I2b1b with M379 polymorphism, Haplogroup I2b1c with P78 polymorphism, and Haplogroup I2b1d with P95 polymorphism. The age of YSTR variation for the M223 subclade is 13.2±2.7 kya [18] and 12.3±3.1 kya. [19]


The haplogroup I of North-East Italy:
I2a2aI2a2a (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%).[13] Haplogroup I2a2a is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians.[14] There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. However, according to Ken Nordtvedt I2a2a arose 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. In 2010 Nordtvedt argued that I2a2a is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion.[15] He has presumed this to be the Slavic invasion from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.[

[Peyrol]

Facciamo la pace, non la guerra :D

wAO8G7YyMGI

[Ibericus]

I've already answered. As for climate, have you ever seen a map of Europe? Do you actually know where Northern Italy is?
So ? Why are you talking about the climate of North-Italy now ? I was talking about the relation Spain-South Italy. Do you realize that NW Iberia has an atlantic climate, similar to Ireland ? The innerland has continental, and the North close to France has Alpine climate ? Only our eastern coast is pure mediterranean climate.

[alzo zero]

You've posted a lot of maps that are amateur-made even if well intentioned. Then you've dropped one in the middle with insufficient data (as per your own admittance).

I don't mean to disrespect or diminish Italians (northern, southern or otherwise) when I say that we are different and distinct. Try at least to show some dignity for God's sake!.
Dignity includes not lying, which you continuously do. First, the map I've posted also in my latest post is not an amateurish map, as I've said, it's taken from a Veeramah et al study, posted in the Eurogenes blog. Secondly, where have I dropped the map in the middle saying there were insufficient data (that's the map I've posted twice xD)? :confused: Third, you are what you are: genetically similar to us, culturally not so much luckily.

I'm not even wasting my time confusting the rest of your post which basically revolves around your comic ideas about Italy, Spain and now even Germany.

Edit: maybe by saying that I "dropped" you meant to say that I "used" it? In that case yes, I did although it wasn't the one in the middle. It was the last one, showing the Tuscans close to the Spaniards. You just have to add 1 and 1 to guess where the Northern Italians would end (or would be "dropped" ;)) in there.

[Star Valley]

Dov'è San Marino?... Che cosa si considera culturalmente di San Marino.

[alzo zero]

Facciamo la pace, non la guerra :D
Falla tu con sti giuda io non ho tanta voglia.

[Peyrol]

Dov'è San Marino?... Che cosa si considera culturalmente di San Marino.

San Marino è repubblica indipendente e sovrana fin dal 331 a.d. (lo stato più antico d'Europa), ed è giusto che rimanga indipendente.

Ah, etnicamente su 31,000 abitanti, il 100% sono italiani.

[Peyrol]

Falla tu con sti giuda io non ho tanta voglia.


Va bene :D

2Jr1AKbyMng

[Foxy]

Facciamo la pace, non la guerra :D

wAO8G7YyMGI

Tu hai una pazienza da "santo subito". Io ti ammiro!


So ? Why are you talking about the climate of North-Italy now ? I was talking about the relation Spain-South Italy. Do you realize that NW Iberia has an atlantic climate, similar to Ireland ? The innerland has continental, and the North close to France has Alpine climate ? Only our eastern coast is pure mediterranean climate.

Well Alzo Zero's behavour towards southern Italians may be ridicolous but also your behavour towards Ireland. Ireland has an atlantic climate but is far northernmore than Spain and Spaniards don't look like Irish. Deal with it otherwise it will seem that is you to have inferority complexes towards your whole country - at least Alzo Zero is limited to Southern Italy which, objectively, is different from Northern Italy.
Although Kosovo Je Sjrbia tried to make Abruzzo pass for a detachment of Calabria, we are central Italians and we already don't like Southerns that much. If all is proportioned, imagine how people feel in the North.

I have nothing against my southern fellows, but if we come to look most Sicilians and Calabrians don't look like the rest of Italians.
Neapolitans have a particular look, they are not like Calabrians and in my opinion the hottest guys are down there. :p So go Neaples!! Apulians also look different. Without exaggeration I'd say that Apulians look very similar to Greeks. Some Sicilians to me look, more than Greek, as mixed with Northern Africans.

[Lábaru]

Labaru, i wrote my point of wiev about in 10.000 thread...i haven't nothing against southern, i'm only writing that the Greek heritage is very strong in southern Italy, and not in the North.

(greek genetic in Italy)
http://s1.wdstatic.com/images/it/ll/b/b6/Mappageneticaitalia.jpg

Say this is quite different to say "Terroni di merda africani marrani maledetti" (like some "northerners" usually do, like Mario Borghezio of the Lega Nord :laugh:), there is an abyss.

I'm a melange of northern and central Italians, i'm the last person that can make fun or be racist against central/southern italians.

Honestly, when I hear speak an Italian like you is when I feel the true historical greatness of Italy and I do not mean just this thread, of course there are differences between North and South of Italy, cultural and genetic, but certainly there are similarities, to say, as some say here that Spain is a country closer to them than the Central and North Italians is not true.

The sad reality is that often I hear the Italians reject similarities with his own South.

I leave this thread, a greeting.

[alzo zero]

Well Alzo Zero's behavour towards southern Italians may be ridicolous but also your behavour towards Ireland. Ireland has an atlantic climate but is far northernmore than Spain and Spaniards don't look like Irish. Deal with it otherwise it will seem that is you to have inferority complexes towards your whole country - at least Alzo Zero is limited to Southern Italy which, objectively, is different from Northern Italy.
Although Kosovo Je Sjrbia tried to make Abruzzo pass for a detachment of Calabria, we are central Italians and we already don't like Southerns that much. If all is proportioned, imagine how people feel in the North.
Anyone, quote one single comment where I've insulted Southern Italians. The closest thing getting to my mind is when I've said they have no entrepreneurial mentality. Is that an offense? How touchy!


I leave this thread, a greeting.
... E anche con una bella striscia marrone sulla lingua. :)

[Ibericus]

Well Alzo Zero's behavour towards southern Italians may be ridicolous but also your behavour towards Ireland. Ireland has an atlantic climate but is far northernmore than Spain and Spaniards don't look like Irish.
I never claimed we look like Irish, sorry. I talked about Atlantic climate.


Deal with it otherwise it will seem that is you to have inferority complexes towards your whole country - at least Alzo Zero is limited to Southern Italy which, objectively, is different from Northern Italy.
Absolutely Not. I have a deep love for my country, all Spaniards are equal to me. Southerns included. I would never reject a part of my country like Alzo embarassingly does.

[Amapola]

Ireland has an atlantic climate but is far northernmore than Spain and Spaniards don't look like Irish. Deal with it .

He was talking about climate, NOT appearance, afaik. :confused:

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Do you guys realize that Southern Italy, is also Italy ? And that they speak the same language as North Italians ?
Genevans speak French. Austrians speak German. Galicians speak something similar to Portuguese. So what?


And have much more in common with them than with Spaniards ? Your complexes are ridiculous.
Well for my part I wouldn't have too much in common with Spain. Nor I would see the point in associating the Italian South to already wretched countries.


Only Tribuno seems to have some common sense. You don't like the South of your country so you try to pass them for Spaniards. I tell, you don't know a shit about Spanish culture.
I said I understand very well how little pleasant might sound such an association. Still there's no risk about Spain coming up with a 18th autonomy, since I'd have a hard time in finding any willing applicant.


The cultures of Basques, Catalans, Galicians, Asturians, Cantabrians, Castillians are completely different than Southern-Italy. Not only culture, but climate, mentality, genetics, etc.
Well I don't care too much whether Neapolitan folcloric dresses are more similar to Spanish or to Greek ones, or whether there's something similar to the Iberian deserts in Southern Italy or not, or whether there's stronger SSA genetic admixture in Iberia (ask Polako - for my part I don't find that stuff much more interesting than blood groups as for one's actual appearance) than in Southern Italy. Still I noticed an embarassing attempt among some users to cluster northern Italy with Spain and southern Italy with Greece. While the latter argument might perhaps have some grounding, I'm glad to hear the distinct peculiarity of Iberia confirmed.

[Ibericus]

G.
Still I noticed an embarassing attempt among some users to cluster northern Italy with Spain and southern Italy with Greece. While the latter argument might perhaps have some grounding, I'm glad to hear confirmed the distinct peculiarity of Iberia.
Embarassing ? That's the truth. It's what i've seen in dozens of genetic plots. I've shown them here. Also genetic trees and cluster. We are hardly inventing anything.

[Foxy]

Anyone, quote one single comment where I've insulted Southern Italians. The closest thing getting to my mind is when I've said they have no entrepreneurial mentality. Is that an offense? How touchy!



... E anche con una bella striscia marrone sulla lingua. :)

Scusa ma dovevo aprire con una frase da carota e bastone. Mi serviva un capro. Oggettivamente solo uno straniero sordo-muto e cieco non vede che i Calabresi non hanno un cazzo a che vedere con i Lombardi. E' come mettere insieme Lapponi e Prussiani.


I never claimed we look like Irish, sorry. I talked about Atlantic climate.

Absolutely Not. I have a deep love for my country, all Spaniards are equal to me. Southerns included. I would never reject a part of my country like Alzo embarassingly does.

Ok Ok, sry I didn't catch the need to speak about climate now.
The fact is that Southern Italy is more different from Northern Italy than Southern Spain from Northern Spain. Calabria, for me, is as exotic as Nevada. Moreover in Italy every region has its own characterists/landscapes. Wanting to group Abruzzo with someone else I'd place it with Lazio, Marche, Umbria, Southern Tuscany, Molise, although our accent is closer to Campanian (but only to unexpert ears).

Now please, back to the topic ^^

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Embarassing ? That's the truth. It's what i've seen in dozens of genetic plots. I've shown them here. Also genetic trees and cluster. We are hardly inventing anything.

I see you are happy in sharing some genome with us (genome if little else!), still you have emphasized enough the peculiar distinctiveness of "the cultures of Basques, Catalans, Galicians, Asturians, Cantabrians, Castillians" so for us to feel reassured.


The Following User Says Thank You to Iberia For This Useful Post:
Mordid

R1b rules over every yokel east of Elbe

[El Palleter]

Dignity includes not lying, which you continuously do. First, the map I've posted also in my latest post is not an amateurish map, as I've said, it's taken from a Veeramah et al study, posted in the Eurogenes blog.The Veeramah paper is the one valid and it still shows a clear differentiation between Italians and Spaniards.

That's why you dropped in the rest of amateur maps with it, to see if slipped by. With deceitful purposes.

And I'm starting to get sick tired of your insults


you are what you are: genetically similar to us, culturally not so much luckily.Neither one nor the other. Why can't you be content with what you are, Italian? Not even happy, just content bloody hell!


I'm not even wasting my time confusting the rest of your postI'm relieved (whatever "confusting" means :P)


which basically revolves around your comic ideas about Italy, Spain and now even Germany. Uh! Blame it on Hegel not on me. He was the guy with the comical ideas although. But that idea was some sort of an exception.


Edit: maybe by saying that I "dropped" you meant to say that I "used" it? In that case yesYes. With the clear intention of deceiving. "Slip by" would be a better choice of words.

[The Journeyman]

I always thought it to be the center of Europe, and the split of the Roman empire along with the schism (later the Soviets) divided Eastern and Western Europe. Technichally it is the seat of the Western world (Rome).

[El Palleter]

... E anche con una bella striscia marrone sulla lingua. :)Bloody hell! In which kind of infected sewer were you raised?

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Qui ha ragione potresti evitare

[Falkata]

Moreover in Italy every region has its own characterists/landscapes.
Now please, back to the topic ^^

You should realize that the differences regarding culture, climate or landscape now that you mention it are as important in Iberia as in Italy. The only difference is that we´re ethnically (genetically) more homogeneous than you because of the "Reconquista" (internal migrations from the north settling empty southern lands)

As an example

typical southern Castillian (La Mancha) landscape

http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/galeriasb/europa/spain/mancha.jpg
http://enlamaleta.es/files/2009/05/castillo.jpg


Galician one

http://www.fotosdegalicia.es/galicia/d/25981-4/DSCN0682.JPG
http://www.escapadafindesemana.net/wp-content/uploads/escapada-fin-de-semana-galicia.jpg

[Ibericus]

I see you are happy in sharing some genome with us (genome if little else!), still you have emphasized enough the peculiar distinctiveness of "the cultures of Basques, Catalans, Galicians, Asturians, Cantabrians, Castillians" so for us to feel reassured.
It's not to feel reassured, but to make clear what is spanish culture, because some people have a weird idea of what spanish culture is. Alzo talked of Spain as a whole cultural block, ironically he dividied Italy in 3 parts. Just that.

[Amapola]

The fact is that Southern Italy is more different from Northern Italy than Southern Spain from Northern Spain. .
North
Galicia
http://www.glogster.com/media/3/11/61/39/11613975.jpg
Asturias
http://www.solcarhire.net/images/locations/gallery/asturias/asturias_national_park.jpg
Cantabria
http://www.unican.es/NR/Shared/comp/images/cantabria.jpg
Vascongadas
http://www.spanish-living.com/images/Pais_Vasco.jpg
Navarra
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/0c/31/26/vista-de-ujue.jpg
North of Aragon
http://aragonhills.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/20070905103401-foto228-pirineo-aragones.jpg
North of Catalonia
http://www.100destinos.com/imagenes/pirineo-catalan.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

It's not to feel reassured, but to make clear what is spanish culture, because some people have a weird idea of what spanish culture is. Alzo talked of Spain as a whole cultural block, ironically he dividied Italy in 3 parts. Just that.

I see you Catalans are somehow less peripheral than the rest of the peninsula, by the way that's your business and I won't suggest what to do with your neighbors.

[Amapola]

South
Huelva (Atlantic South)
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/8b/d0/8c/huelva-el-portil.jpg
Cádiz (Atlantic South)
http://www.escapadasfindesemana.net/wp-content/bolonia-duna.jpg
http://www.andalucia.com/cities/image/078cadiz.jpg
Córdoba
http://blog.reservahotelescordoba.com/wp-content/uploads/image00113.jpg
Jaen
http://personales.alumno.upv.es/~jormaso/fotos/JAEN_archivos/CAmposJa%C3%A9n.jpg
Almeria
http://www.alquilerdecochesx.com/sites/carhirex.com/files/content/Cabo_de_Gata-Nijar_Almeria.jpg
http://www.kalipedia.com/kalipediamedia/cienciasnaturales/media/200704/17/tierrayuniverso/20070417klpcnatun_425.Ies.SCO.jpg
Málaga
http://sobremalaga.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/riogordo.jpg
Granada
http://fotos0.mundofotos.net/2009/28_02_2009/mundo_imag1235810389/cuevas-de-guadix-granada-espana.jpg
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4452/cerrodeltoro.jpg

[Star Valley]

As beautiful as they are, why are there photos of Spain in an Italian thread?
Spain should have their own geography thread.

[Amapola]

As beautiful as they are, why are there photos of Spain in an Italian thread?
Spain should have their own geography thread.

As little informative as it is, why is your post here if you have lost the track the thread?

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

As beautiful as they are, why are there photos of Spain in an Italian thread?
Spain should have their own geography thread.
She was reminding us there's no need to take Spain or Italy as homogeneous entities too seriously.

[Amapola]

She was reminding us there's no need to take Spain or Italy as homogeneous entities too seriously.

And who is taking it seriously? I was not even hinting at entities with those pics :p

[Star Valley]

Comparing Italy to Spain with floods of photos in terms of physical geography isn't going to change anything. Neither is genetics, homogeneity, or climate (climate changes). Ethnically many factors apply.
A few members here requested that the census stay on topic. We want to see about Italy, not Spain.

I'll begin by showing a photo from each province from the nation peninsula, it would be wonderful if native Italians on the forum would give some photos in addition to help come to a conclusion.

Trentino-Alto Adige
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5199/trentotrentinoaltoadige.th.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/trentotrentinoaltoadige.jpg/)
Lombardy
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5982/madesimolombardyitaly.th.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/madesimolombardyitaly.jpg/)
Calabria
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8123/scillacalabriaitaly.th.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/scillacalabriaitaly.jpg/)
Apulia
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2451/stockphotopanoramicview.th.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/stockphotopanoramicview.jpg/)

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

And who is taking it seriously? I was not even hinting at entities with those pics :p

The whole concept behind the thread is worried about entities to be defined. What's ethnically the "West"? To my eyes its only consistent and historically significant meaning is Romano-Germanic civilization or the Catholic-Protestant sphere. I see very well such outlying places like Ireland or Galicia are indeed "western" on the map (the Azores even more); still this doesn't make them the core of Western culture.

[Amapola]

The whole concept behind the thread is worried about entities to be defined. What's ethnically the "West"? To my eyes its only consistent and historically significant meaning is Romano-Germanic civilization or the Catholic-Protestant sphere. I see very well such outlying places like Ireland or Galicia are indeed "western" on the map (the Azores even more); still this doesn't make them the core of Western culture.

But my reply was an off-topic illustration of an off-topic comment of Veleda. I am not hinting beyond in my post, I have not even posted my opinion. So... I let the thread flow... good luck!

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

But my reply was an off-topic illustration of an off-topic comment of Veleda. I am not hinting beyond in my post, I have not even posted my opinion. So... I let the thread flow... good luck!

I know, but your pictures of green-grassed Galicia (so similar to Ireland - one lately so often hears those two countries together) made me wonder about "ethnic West Europe" in Veleda's topic. And I failed to see how "westernness" when culturally defined might be a matter of longitude.

[Amapola]

Comparing Italy to Spain with floods of photos in terms of physical geography isn't going to change anything.
And what do you want to change? :eek: or what do I want to change?


Neither is genetics, homogeneity, or climate (climate changes).
All the posts of this thread should not be here because they won't change anything, then? :lightbul:


A few members here requested that the census stay on topic.
It happens often yes, and... I agree, it's desirable. :thumb001:


We want to see about Italy, not Spain.
Actually the differences betwen North and South applied to a West - East cline where Spain was mentioned. Sorry about *you* or those you refer by "we", but associations happen over and over again. Anyway, not sure how your pics will resolve the "ethnic" diference. Mine were at least being contrastive to a certain claim. :P

[El Palleter]

Spain should have their own geography thread.
As little informative as it is, why is your post here if you have lost the track the thread?Mourchois don't mind her much. She's a bit thick ;)


Comparing Italy to Spain with floods of photos in terms of physical geography isn't going to change anything. Neither is genetics, homogeneity, or climate (climate changes).If you read the discussion thread you'd find that the posting of those pictures are in the context of some argument. That's why it's called a "thread" hunny bunny :)

Oh and San Marino is a planet of roses somewhere in a very distant galaxy, for all you need to know :P

[Amapola]

I know, but your pictures of green-grassed Galicia (so similar to Ireland - one lately so often hears those two countries together) made me wonder about "ethnic West Europe" in Veleda's topic. And I failed to see how "westernness" when culturally defined might be a matter of longitude.

I don't even doubt of the Western nature of the desert pictures of the South, so posting the green lands of Galicia for that would be superfluous. My post was an example of how the South/North climatic and environmental difference in Spain was not less important as in Italy, as Veleda suggested. Other suggestions appart from climate regarding my country make up a world appart.

[Star Valley]

I have taken the train to San Marino by Rimini from Bologna and back, the mountainous setting and blizzard weather reminded me that of the alps, that is why I asked Italians how they consider San Marino.

Let's not get carried away again, and derail another thread. Like I said and meant seriously, Spain should have their own geography thread (shoulder pat time) Spain is very interesting and similar topics could be brought up on them too.

[Nurzat]

Italy: North African or Levantine ethnically?

hard to tell

[Peyrol]

hard to tell

I always ask to the slavs supremacist (ahahaha slavs supremacist, what a oxymoron ahahah) the sources of these supposed turkish or berber colonizations and population replacements throughout the Italian peninsula, but because there aren't, no one has been able to provide :laugh:

Ah, just a note: we defeat turks at Lepanto, while many slavic countries were totally invaded for centuries :laugh:

[Foxy]

Neither one nor the other. Why can't you be content with what you are, Italian? Not even happy, just content bloody hell!



I didn't want to be so harsh but now you are pulling words out of my mouth: we Italians feel different from Spaniards and we get very sicked when we are confused with them. We Italians like Spanish people, but historically they have left a bad memory of them in Italy and we Italians, sry if I tell you this, feel superior to Spaniards at least culturally, also the Southern ones. They had Gorgia, Archimede, Majorana, Giovanni Battista Caracciolo, Luca Giordano, etc. etc. while Spain in Italy is often associated with the XVII century, a century of cultural backwardness, of the Counter-Riform, of bad government, of Inquisition and of a strong pestilence in the whole peninsula, or with the genocides in Southern America, for whose indipendece many Italians, following Garibaldi, fought and won.

But maybe these are just details for you. We are very proud of what we are, my question was only if there are serious proofs that we are South-East Europeans becouse til here I have always known that Italy was a south-West country. The news that we are south-Easterns is new to me but if we are I would be a bit surprised but absolutely not ashamed.

Said this, things won't change the fact that we Italians like Spanish ppl, a bit less their old governants.


You should realize that the differences regarding culture, climate or landscape now that you mention it are as important in Iberia as in Italy. The only difference is that we´re ethnically (genetically) more homogeneous than you because of the "Reconquista" (internal migrations from the north settling empty southern lands)

Yes I know this. ;)



Asturias
http://www.solcarhire.net/images/locations/gallery/asturias/asturias_national_park.jpg


This one look very similar to my region:
http://www.pecorinofarindola.com/images/Campo_Imperatore.jpg
http://www.ristoranteabruzzo.com/sites/default/files/images/parco-nazionale-majella_large.jpg
http://www.hotelfree.it/itinerari_Abruzzo/img/campo-imperatore.jpg

Although in winter landscapes are a bit different. ;) More or less the latitude is the same.

[Peyrol]

BTW, about San Marino: one of the best national anthem of Europe.

wCLM4m_cbhU

[Foxy]

BTW, about San Marino: one of the best national anthem of Europe.

wCLM4m_cbhU

They even have an anthem??? Ghghghgh... San Marino is Italy without Italian politicians, indeed they are small but superior. :cool:

BTW we have strongly gone out of topic.

[Nurzat]

I always ask to the slavs supremacist (ahahaha slavs supremacist, what a oxymoron ahahah) the sources of these supposed turkish or berber colonizations and population replacements throughout the Italian peninsula, but because there aren't, no one has been able to provide :laugh:

Ah, just a note: we defeat turks at Lepanto, while many slavic countries were totally invaded for centuries :laugh:

man, i was just trolling. no harsh feelings. i like to instigate :)

sono uno dei vostri amici qua, italiani

[Mordid]

I always ask to the slavs supremacist (ahahaha slavs supremacist, what a oxymoron ahahah) the sources of these supposed turkish or berber colonizations and population replacements throughout the Italian peninsula, but because there aren't, no one has been able to provide :laugh:

Ah, just a note: we defeat turks at Lepanto, while many slavic countries were totally invaded for centuries :laugh:

http://www.forteforums.com/forums/attachments/forte-koup-general-discussion/5178d1306962252-where-should-i-put-nos-nitrous-sticker-decal-obama-you-mad.jpg

[Sikeliot]

But here I wanted to focus on ETHNICITY. I think that a proof that Italians are western Europeans come from the high percentage of R1b in the whole peninsula, while R1a, typically slavo-balcanian, are very low.


My issue with this is that parts of Italy have much higher frequencies of haplogroups J, G, and E (Neolithic) than you'll find in the rest of Western Europe.. so indeed you're right that R1a and I2 are low, but the frequencies of Neolithic/Near Eastern haplogroups are much closer to what you find in Southeastern Europe than Iberia. Southern Italy's haplogroups closely mirror Greece except what Greece has of R1a and I2 combined, the Italians have of R1b.

[Foxy]

man, i was just trolling. no harsh feelings. i like to instigate :)

sono uno dei vostri amici qua, italiani


My issue with this is that parts of Italy have much higher frequencies of haplogroups J, G, and E (Neolithic) than you'll find in the rest of Western Europe.. so indeed you're right that R1a and I2 are low, but the frequencies of Neolithic/Near Eastern haplogroups are much closer to what you find in Southeastern Europe than Iberia. Southern Italy's haplogroups closely mirror Greece except what Greece has of R1a and I2 combined, the Italians have of R1b.

Pardon my franch, ours is J2 not J1, a south East EUROPEAN haplogroup. Near Easterns have J1. We and Romanians have almost the same percentage of E3b and J2, but they have more R1a we more R1b. For the rest our haplogroups are almost identical:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/__y-map.gif

Yet the absence of R1a in the Italian side needs a consideration.

[Nurzat]

Pardon my franch, ours is J2 not J1, a south East EUROPEAN haplogroup. Near Easterns have J1. We and Romanians have almost the same percentage of E3b and J2, but they have more R1a we more R1b. For the rest our haplogroups are almost identical:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/__y-map.gif

Yet the absence of R1a in the Italian side needs a consideration.

tesoro, non sono io il vostro nemico qua

[Foxy]

tesoro, non sono io il vostro nemico qua

A me non me ne frega un cazzo.

Ps: crepa!

[Sikeliot]

Pardon my franch, ours is J2 not J1, a south East EUROPEAN haplogroup.

Exactly my point.


Near Easterns have J1. We and Romanians have almost the same percentage of E3b and J2, but they have more R1a we more R1b. For the rest our haplogroups are almost identical:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/__y-map.gif

Yet the absence of R1a in the Italian side needs a consideration.


J2 and E3b are highest in Southeast Europe of all parts of Europe.. The R1b/R1a division isn't as meaningful when dealing with Southern Europe because a large part of the clustering difference in Southern Europe is related to Neolithic influences, not just R1a/R1b.

[Foxy]

Exactly my point.




J2 and E3b are highest in Southeast Europe of all parts of Europe.. The R1b/R1a division isn't as meaningful when dealing with Southern Europe because a large part of the clustering difference in Southern Europe is related to Neolithic influences, not just R1a/R1b.

Mmmm... I am not persuaded becouse R1a in my opinion is the most typical Eastern European marker. What about the way Italians look? (True Italians, not stereotype simil-Turks please). More Eastern or more Western European?

[Nurzat]

depends on region... moldavia (all the central east and northeast) has under 10% J, in romania. it has 35% R1a and 30% I2a2 plus some 20% R1b... bucovina, my region, is mostly R1b and R1a with significat I2a2... south romania instead is very J and E, so balkanic

PS. italians look western...

[Zephyr]

No vote.

Italy is not one for a start.

All the rest comes along.

[Bridie]

When in Rome, I saw many Italians that looked very Slavic. (This was quite a surprise to me.) However, they could have been Italian tourists from other areas of Italy and not Roman locals.

I socialised much with friends of a friend (Romans from an old Roman family) while there also, and they did indeed look Western.

I think looks-wise Italy is probably a transition country between East and West... you get some that look Eastern and some that look Western... but surely in regards to culture, they are basically Eastern.

[Peyrol]

When in Rome, I saw many Italians that looked very Slavic. (This was quite a surprise to me.) However, they could have been Italian tourists from other areas of Italy and not Roman locals.

I socialised much with friends of a friend (Romans from an old Roman family) while there also, and they did indeed look Western.

I think looks-wise Italy is probably a transition country between East and West... you get some that look Eastern and some that look Western... but surely in regards to culture, they are basically Eastern.

Maybe because in Rome lives about 80,000 russians/ukrainians/serbs/croats ?

[Bridie]

Maybe because in Rome lives about 80,000 russians/ukrainians/serbs/croats ?No. I said I saw many Italians that looked Slavic.

The whole time I was in Rome I was with a Spanish friend of mine who is very familiar with Italians (has many Italian friends) as well as often being in the company of Roman friends of his. They confirmed to me that the people I was seeing and wondering about (Slavic looking ones) were actually Italian and that their looks were common enough in Italy.

[Lucretius]

When in Rome, I
I think looks-wise Italy is probably a transition country between East and West... you get some that look Eastern and some that look Western... but surely in regards to culture, they are basically Eastern.

are we eastern in regards to culture? could you explain that?..:rolleyes: please

[Peyrol]

No. I said I saw many Italians that looked Slavic.

The whole time I was in Rome I was with a Spanish friend of mine who is very familiar with Italians (has many Italian friends) as well as often being in the company of Roman friends of his. They confirmed to me that the people I was seeing and wondering about (Slavic looking ones) were actually Italian and that their looks were common enough in Italy.

It the point that i try to write in all the topic were some people thinks that we looks all like "the Godfather". Wee haven't a homogeneous looking :laugh:

[Foxy]

Boh, some Albanians look like Italians however. An exemple:

Albanian (but her surname is Italian, Anxhela Martini):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KzMvlbM7m-w/TEE3AwTuk3I/AAAAAAAAGSY/u-aoQQYoCNc/s1600/Anxhela+Martini+Crowned+Miss+Albania+Universe+2010 +Anxhela+Martini+Crowned+Miss+Albania+Universe+201 0+5.jpg

Italian:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZtneWMv1XfY/TOvKQRU_wXI/AAAAAAAAaJs/RR50BLd_wX4/s1600/ITALY%2B-%2BIlenia%2BArnolfo.jpg

Albanian:

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m533/brownfilmbuff/Aferdita/5.jpg

Italian:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7nuNXqqoInI/SZuBnSxSXeI/AAAAAAAADBo/wEDoySX6wIs/s400/Chiara_Baschetti+college+girls+(3).jpg

But I dunno if they look more Easterns or Westerns and if these Albanians are typical for Albania. Southern Italy has an Albanian input if we want to say all.

On the other hand we have also many people who look Westerns in Italy:

http://www.laurachiatti.it/Laura%20Chiatti%205.jpg

http://cdn.cinetivu.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/barbara-d-urso-domenica-cinque.jpg

With people like him that seems to be in the middle and who probably consitute the biggest group:

http://images.movieplayer.it/2003/02/09/kim-rossi-stuart-in-una-scena-de-le-chiavi-di-casa-4006.jpg

[Foxy]

No. I said I saw many Italians that looked Slavic.

The whole time I was in Rome I was with a Spanish friend of mine who is very familiar with Italians (has many Italian friends) as well as often being in the company of Roman friends of his. They confirmed to me that the people I was seeing and wondering about (Slavic looking ones) were actually Italian and that their looks were common enough in Italy.

She is true, I had eastern European friends at school and some southern slavs look like Italians (or vice versa if you prefer), while usually West and East slavs look totally out of place. Also in Rome I had the same impression of her, although in Rome you find everything. But I did the schools in Abruzzo (however slavic settlements are attested here, mostly Bulgarians and Albanians, while Rome was devasted by Hungarians if I remember well).

Romanians remain a mistery, some of the can pass for Italians, other look like Russian.

CULTURALLY THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT WE ARE WESTERNS.

[Bridie]

are we eastern in regards to culture? could you explain that?..:rolleyes: pleaseIt was just my impression while there.

I don't have enough interest in whether Italy is Eastern or Western to go into any depth in comparing various Italian regions with neighbouring foreign regions.

[Peyrol]

It was just my impression while there.

I don't have enough interest in whether Italy is Eastern or Western to go into any depth in comparing various Italian regions with neighbouring foreign regions.

Do you think that the medieval Papacy, the Crusades and the Renaissance were "eastern"?...

[Lucretius]

It was just my impression while there.

I don't have enough interest in whether Italy is Eastern or Western to go into any depth in comparing various Italian regions with neighbouring foreign regions.

Yes,the same goes for me,but i was a little astonished about this "eastern culture".:rolleyes:

[Don]

Ah, just a note: we [italians]defeat turks at Lepanto, while many slavic countries were totally invaded for centuries :laugh:

http://tipitapa.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/pinocho.jpg

[Peyrol]

http://tipitapa.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/pinocho.jpg

Ok, i wrote better: "...catholic league defeats turks..."

[Sikeliot]

What about the way Italians look? (True Italians, not stereotype simil-Turks please). More Eastern or more Western European?

Northerners look like southern French to me so western, central Italians like a transition between the southern French and Balkanic peoples so a mixture, and southerners more Southeastern European.

[Polizzi's]

I'm 75% Italian, our culture is linked with Greece and Magna Grecia. Don't you remember the history of Italy? Italy and Greece are two Mediterranean countries, they're the heart of civilization, cuisine, language and people are similar, here the Greek and the Italian communities are considered almost a sole identity.

[Portukalos]

http://tipitapa.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/pinocho.jpg

PINOCCHIO was definitly italian.

[Aces High]

Italy and Greece are two Mediterranean countries,

They are two European countries.....seperated by the Ionian sea.

[Foxy]

I'm 75% Italian, our culture is linked with Greece and Magna Grecia. Don't you remember the history of Italy? Italy and Greece are two Mediterranean countries, they're the heart of civilization, cuisine, language and people are similar, here the Greek and the Italian communities are considered almost a sole identity.

This denotes a deep ignorance of Italy becouse only 4 regions of 20 were Magna Graecia and in some of them, like Basilicata, Greeks built more or less only 3 poleis. The largest colonizations were in Sicily and Calabria and partially in Campania. In Apulia Byzantines settlements arrived in Middle Age. The whole South accepted later many Albanian refugees and some Croats arrived in Middle Ae in Molise. These are the biggest Eastern settlements attested (except North-East Italy).

[Peyrol]

This denotes a deep ignorance of Italy becouse only 4 regions of 20 were Magna Graecia and in some of them, like Basilicata, Greeks built more or less only 3 poleis. The largest colonizations were in Sicily and Calabria and partially in Campania. In Apulia Byzantines settlements arrived in Middle Age. The whole South accepted later many Albanian refugees and some Croats arrived in Middle Ae in Molise. These are the biggest Eastern settlements attested (except North-East Italy).

Mhh...you're true, but in Basilicata, the inhabitants of Matera, Metaponto, etc. are virtually identicals to the greeks.

And one of the most diffused apulian surname, Calo' , derives from the greek word kalos.

[Polizzi's]

This denotes a deep ignorance of Italy becouse only 4 regions of 20 were Magna Graecia and in some of them, like Basilicata, Greeks built more or less only 3 poleis. The largest colonizations were in Sicily and Calabria and partially in Campania. In Apulia Byzantines settlements arrived in Middle Age. The whole South accepted later many Albanian refugees and some Croats arrived in Middle Ae in Molise. These are the biggest Eastern settlements attested (except North-East Italy).

wrong, the regions are five, Sicily, Calabria, Campania, Lucania and Apulia.
It means about 1/3 of Italians. Almost 20 milion people.

[Foxy]

wrong, the regions are five, Sicily, Calabria, Campania, Lucania and Apulia.
It means about 1/3 of Italians. Almost 20 milion people.

True, but anyway most Italians live in the North and of the regions you mentioned Basilicata and Calabria are among the least densily populated, so I'd say not more than 18 millions people on 59 millions. Too few to consider Italy as a whole a south-Eastern country similar to Greece.

LIST OF ITALIAN REGIONS PER INHABITANTS:

1 Lombardia 9.917.714 1.546 12
2 Campania 5.834.056 551 5
3 Lazio 5.728.688 378 5
4 Sicilia 5.051.075 390 9
5 Veneto 4.937.854 581 7
6 Piemonte 4.457.335 1.206 8
7 Emilia-Romagna 4.432.418 348 9
8 Puglia 4.091.259 258 6
9 Toscana 3.749.813 287 10
10 Calabria 2.011.395 409 5
11 Sardegna 1.675.411 377 8
12 Liguria 1.616.788 235 4
13 Marche 1.565.335 239 5
14 Abruzzo 1.342.366 305 4
15 Friuli-Venezia Giulia 1.235.808 218 4
16 Trentino-Alto Adige 1.037.114 333 2
17 Umbria 906.486 92 2
18 Basilicata 587.517 131 2
19 Molise 319.780 136 2
20 Valle d'Aosta 128.230 74 1
Totale 60.626.442 8.094 110

TOTAL OF PEOPLE LIVING IN EX MAGNA GRAECIA:

17 millions and half / 60 millions

[supergiovane]

Milan and Turin are two of the greatest city of the South. Milan is like a little Apulia without the sea and Turin was nicknamed the third largest city of the South back in the '60s.
and the greeks in Salento have been living there since pre-roman times.

[Foxy]

Milan and Turin are two of the greatest city of the South. Milan is like a little Apulia without the sea and Turin was nicknamed the third largest city of the South back in the '60s.
and the greeks in Salento have been living there since pre-roman times.

??? And so? A city doesn't mean the whole region, and in Piedmont and Lombardy most people still are Northern Italians. Following your reasonment I could say: Sicily was invaded by Piedmonteses during the Risorgiment and by Normans during the Middle Age... :rolleyes:

[supergiovane]

??? And so? A city doesn't mean the whole region, and in Piedmont and Lombardy most people still are Northern Italians. Following your reasonment I could say: Sicily was invaded by Piedmonteses during the Risorgiment and by Normans during the Middle Age... :rolleyes:
but people living in North and Center with roots in the South are arguably a few millions.

[Foxy]

but people living in North and Center with roots in the South are arguably a few millions.

There are also many Northerns who live and work in the centre and in the South that none is taking in consideration right now.
However to establish if we are south-Easterns or South-Westerns I don't think internal migrations count too much. I think we should rather focus on the way Italians look and on their genes.

[Peyrol]

Milan and Turin are two of the greatest city of the South. Milan is like a little Apulia without the sea and Turin was nicknamed the third largest city of the South back in the '60s.
and the greeks in Salento have been living there since pre-roman times.

Certo che se dai ascolto alle parole di quel filozingaro comunista di Diego Novelli, stiamo freschi...:laugh:

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Certo che se dai ascolto alle parole di quel filozingaro comunista di Diego Novelli, stiamo freschi...:laugh:
A Bari c'erano meno abitanti di quanti meridionali fossero arrivati a Torino, quindi il filozingaresimo comunista al limite si riflette nel giudizio di valore piuttosto che nella constatazione fattuale.

[Peyrol]

A Bari c'erano meno abitanti di quanti meridionali fossero a Torino, quindi il filozingaresimo comunista al limite si riflette nel giudizio di valore piuttosto che nella constatazione fattuale.

E allora? Non è colpa mia se il cognome più diffuso qui è Ferrero piuttosto che Napolitano o Sciannimanico...e poi se anche fosse? Non tutti i meridionali sono panzoni pelosi fancazzisti.

Comunque ora come ora, più che città meridionale è città balcanica o maghrebina, ed è quello il problema. :laugh:

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

E allora? Non è colpa mia se il cognome più diffuso qui è Ferrero piuttosto che Napolitano o Sciannimanico...
Logico, i Ferrero sono rimasti concentrati dove erano. I più numerosi e più vari cognomi meridionali sono spalmati su tutte le provenienze regionali.


e poi se anche fosse? Non tutti i meridionali sono panzoni pelosi fancazzisti.
E anche se fosse? Non è l'estetica razziale a determinare la libera circolazione delle genti.


Comunque ora come ora, più che città meridionale è città balcanica o maghrebina, ed è quello il problema. :laugh:
Ma Ferrero resterà il primo cognome quindi si tratta di esagerazioni ad hoc.

[Peyrol]

Logico, i Ferrero sono rimasti concentrati dove erano. I più numerosi e più vari cognomi meridionali sono spalmati su tutte le provenienze regionali.


E anche se fosse? Non è l'estetica razziale a determinare la libera circolazione delle genti.


Ma Ferrero resterà il primo cognome quindi si tratta di esagerazioni ad hoc.

Si, ma il fatto che il secondo e il terzo nome più dati ai neonascituri siano stati rispettivamente Vlad e Mohammed la dice lunga sul nostro futuro...

[Sikeliot]

However to establish if we are south-Easterns or South-Westerns I don't think internal migrations count too much. I think we should rather focus on the way Italians look and on their genes.

The problem is it'd be impossible to group them all into one category or another.. saying as a whole they're southeastern ignores people from Piedmont or Liguria and saying they're southwestern ignores people from Calabria or Apulia.

[Foxy]

The problem is it'd be impossible to group them all into one category or another.. saying as a whole they're southeastern ignores people from Piedmont or Liguria and saying they're southwestern ignores people from Calabria or Apulia.

Speicify what do you mean for Eastern look. EAST is very big.

[Mordid]

I had eastern European friends at school and some southern slavs look like Italians (or vice versa if you prefer),
Can you found Italians witht this look ?
http://www.talentscasting.com/talents/actor/VukKostic/VukKostic19.jpg

^He looks distinctly Slav/Eastern European.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

I've noticed some Italian southerners calling northerners "Slavs" or "Mongols"
as an answer to their familiar nicknaming as "Arabs" or "Niggers". Once a quaint bloke even rediscovered the vintage theory of Asiatic derivation of Central European short-heads. Now this is totally bollocks still with the current ascent of China I'd find that just delicious.

[Foxy]

Can you found Italians witht this look ?
http://www.talentscasting.com/talents/actor/VukKostic/VukKostic19.jpg

^He looks distinctly Slav/Eastern European.

To me he hasn't a distinct slavic look. Mmm... maybe his eyes, now that I am looking him better...

[Mordid]

To me he hasn't a distinct slavic look. Mmm... maybe his eyes, now that I am looking him better...

I actually think that Italian people are very diverse people, ranging from tall light Nordid to short dark gracile Med. What I am trying to say is that he looks South Slavic and he's one of them who doesn't looks closer to Italian.

Here you can found more picture of him
http://www.talentscasting.com/talents.php?page=snap&profession=actor&letter=&id=166&snap=10&assortment=photogallery&pagetitle=Vuk%20Kostic

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&xhr=t&q=vuk+kostic&cp=6&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1284&bih=703&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

[Sikeliot]

Speicify what do you mean for Eastern look. EAST is very big.

Greece, Turkey, Levant, Caucasus.

[Rhobot]

Southwestern overall; Friuli and the far south are southeastern (the first borders Slovenia/Croatia, the second has strong historical connections to Greece).

[Foxy]

Greece, Turkey, Levant, Caucasus.

No sorry, we don't have that levantine vibe (except Greeks the other look totally out of place here, no less than in Portugal). ;)

[Don]

It seems the eastern component wins.

Regarding Europe, "West" implies Atlantic Ocean and these people, ancestors of modern europeans of the regions, related with megalithism and other unique traits (of course, facial too. Just take a look at the facial bone/cartialge structure of a random spaniard and a Italian or other eastern mediterranean).

Of course, if you are talking about Eurasia, with korea in the east, you are westerners... but since this is an european forum and your question implies european context, Italy ISN'T Western.


Still don't know why was not included the "South-Central" option.
In fact when romans called Mediterraneo "mare *******" they were not wrong at all: they/ you are in the core of it.

[Sikeliot]

No sorry, we don't have that levantine vibe (except Greeks the other look totally out of place here, no less than in Portugal). ;)

I wasn't saying that the other 3 looks are commonplace, just that I've seen them enough to know that to some extent they are present, at least in far southern regions. Obviously a typical Italian will not look Armenian, I'm not that stupid.

[alzo zero]

but since this is an european forum and your question implies european context, Italy ISN'T Western.
Spain neither: as a matter of fact it's South-Western, if Italy is South-Central.

[Polizzi's]

Spain neither: as a matter of fact it's South-Western, if Italy is South-Central.

Probably Italy is a link between east and west, so we're all right.
Just see a map to realize what I mean.

[Foxy]

I wasn't saying that the other 3 looks are commonplace, just that I've seen them enough to know that to some extent they are present, at least in far southern regions. Obviously a typical Italian will not look Armenian, I'm not that stupid.

In no study Italians cluster with Turks, at least the serious studies... Southern Italians appear to be: 1)isolated or 2)clustering with Greeks (but not with Cypriots that are distant also from Greeks).

Armenians are not European so they are very far from both Italians and Greeks.

[Foxy]

Spain neither: as a matter of fact it's South-Western, if Italy is South-Central.

Maybe he thinks that living on the Atlantic Ocean makes you look automatically like an English. What he didn't catch is that also Moroccans live on the Atlantic and Morocco is closer to Spain than Britain. :D

NB: I am not saying that Spaniards look Moroccan, but that living on the Atlantic proves nothing. In my opinion Spaniards are not more Europoids than Italians.

[Don]

Originally Posted by alzo zero:
Spain neither: as a matter of fact it's South-Western, if Italy is South-Central.

Smart boy! You can combine 2 elements: South-Western! And that is Spain, Correct!


Originally Posted by Veleda: Maybe he thinks that living on the Atlantic Ocean makes you look automatically like an English. What he didn't catch is that also Moroccans live on the Atlantic and Morocco is closer to Spain than Britain.

Read yourself. You are a transparent being.
And is not healthy what is seen inside of you. :(
http://blogs.elcorreogallego.es/desvarios-en-rosa-y-negro/files/2011/02/20070517091546-desquiciada-203x300.jpg

Con toda sinceridad, you need help about your selfsteem.

Nobleza Obliga. Socorrer al menesteroso.



I will give you a simple exercice. It should work on you:


1.- Read my post again.

2.- Read yours.

3.- Read the next text:
Psychological projectionFrom RationalWiki

Projection is the psychological phenomenon where someone thinks everyone else is doing and thinking what they are. It is usually seen as the externalisation of a person's negative traits, placing blame on an outside force such as the environment, a government, a society or other people.

Projection can also extend to philosophy and knowledge. This occurs when a person or small group of people assume that everyone else is working with the same ideas and/or information that they are. When this fails to happen, however, it can lead to pluralistic ignorance.

A telltale sign of this is when a speaker says that "Everybody knows that...(a certain course of action)" is either beneficial or harmful, so society should avoid an impending catastrophe by following the course of action that the speaker proposes.

Another common forum for projection is in internet arguments, where it is usually pathetically obvious to everyone except the projector. The problem is recognized in intelligence analysis, in the form of cognitive traps for intelligence analysis. In that context, the phenomenon may be called mirror-imaging.



4 and last.- Repeat the point 1 and 2.
Repeat at wish.

[Ibericus]

Maybe he thinks that living on the Atlantic Ocean makes you look automatically like an English. What he didn't catch is that also Moroccans live on the Atlantic and Morocco is closer to Spain than Britain. :D

Are you serious ? Spain is in the atlantic like Morocco, yes. But we are genetically more Atlantic than mediterranean, and Spain has been part of all these Atlantic cultures :

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8518/neolith.png

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/9638/neolith2.png

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8761/bronzeq.png

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2618/bronze2.png

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8435/latebronze.png

[El Palleter]

Maybe he thinks that living on the Atlantic Ocean makes you look automatically like an English.If you are Spanish, it makes you look like Spanish. If you are French, then French. If you are...

I thought that that was obvious to everyone


What he didn't catch is that also Moroccans live on the Atlantic and Morocco is closer to Spain than Britain. :D

NB: I am not saying that Spaniards look MoroccanBy the way, there's a little Spanish genetic influence in Morocco (and I think that in Algeria too). It was taken there by the Moriscos expelled from Spain. Even some of their family names still remain arabicised forms of Spanish names.


but that living on the Atlantic proves nothing. In my opinion Spaniards are not more Europoids than Italians.Who's ever argued that any is more "europoid", or eurowhatever, than the other?

Ao' pesciarola! me stai a fa' mori' da ride!

[Don]

If you are Spanish, it makes you look like Spanish. If you are French, then French. If you are...

Who's ever argued that any is more "europoid", or eurowhatever, than the other?


http://images.letmewatchthis.ch/thumbs/74169_El_espejo_de_la_bruja_-0001.jpg
Again she uses a mirror "Made in Spain" and she fails to understand where is the origin of the image reflected.

[alzo zero]

By the way, there's a little Spanish genetic influence in Morocco (and I think that in Algeria too). It was taken there by the Moriscos expelled from Spain.
Certo, come no. It's all ok as long as it helps you to sleep better at night.

[El Palleter]

Certo, come no. It's all ok as long as it helps you to sleep better at night.I sleep quite well, thank you.

Interestingly, apart from the Moriscos that went to Morocco, Algeria and Tunis (French historian Bernard Vincent, Director of the École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales, mentions around 80,000 to each country), many others went to the Ottoman Empire and Italy.

In Italy at the time some cities (not in the south) sanctioned laws to guarantee religious freedom, and refuge for those persecuted for offenses in other countries, with the intention of attracting population and boasting trade. That attracted Morisco and Marrano refugees, as well as an assorted number of criminals.

The city of Livorno is most (in)famous for this.

[Peyrol]

I sleep quite well, thank you.

Interestingly, apart from the Moriscos that went to Morocco, Algeria and Tunis (French historian Bernard Vincent, Director of the École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales, mentions around 80,000 to each country), many others went to the Ottoman Empire and Italy.

In Italy at the time some cities (not in the south) sanctioned laws to guarantee religious freedom, and refuge for those persecuted for offenses in other countries, with the intention of attracting population and boasting trade. That attracted Morisco and Marrano refugees, as well as an assorted number of criminals.

The city of Livorno is most (in)famous for this.

Also in Siena arrived many jewish pushed out ot Spain.