Do Eastern Europeans have Jewish DNA?

[Biant]

I'm having a discussion with a frined of mine who claims that loads of people in Eastern Europe and Europe as a whole have Jewish DNA. I absotutely disagree with it, becuase the Jews have been living in Europe for centuries (mostly, in Eastern Europe - Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic States) and have been mixing with locals a lot. It means that most of their DNA is European (East Slavic, mostly.) And the original Jewish DNA is little different from the Arabs. (Area where they came from)

Who do you think is right?

[Kaspias]

No they don't

[21993]

They might have some but I do not think it is more than 5 percent overall.

[TheMaestro]

Those that had "dissapeared" around year 1943 or live in Israel. XD

[Satem]

Some have Jewish DNA but usually it's small percentage

[Pine]

I'm having a discussion with a frined of mine who claims that loads of people in Eastern Europe and Europe as a whole have Jewish DNA. I absotutely disagree with it, becuase the Jews have been living in Europe for centuries (mostly, in Eastern Europe - Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic States) and have been mixing with locals a lot. It means that most of their DNA is European (East Slavic, mostly.) And the original Jewish DNA is little different from the Arabs. (Area where they came from)

Who do you think is right?

Neither of you. You're wrong that most of Ashkenazi DNA is European and East Slavic. However, what has occurred more consistently, is that individual Jews have converted to Christianity, as opposed to Christians converting to Judaism.

[Pine]

I'm having a discussion with a frined of mine who claims that loads of people in Eastern Europe and Europe as a whole have Jewish DNA. I absotutely disagree with it, becuase the Jews have been living in Europe for centuries (mostly, in Eastern Europe - Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic States) and have been mixing with locals a lot. It means that most of their DNA is European (East Slavic, mostly.) And the original Jewish DNA is little different from the Arabs. (Area where they came from)

Who do you think is right?

Neither of you. You're wrong that most of Ashkenazi DNA is European and East Slavic. However, what has occurred more consistently, is that individual Jews have converted to Christianity, as opposed to Christians converting to Judaism.

[FinalFlash]

I'm having a discussion with a frined of mine who claims that loads of people in Eastern Europe and Europe as a whole have Jewish DNA. I absotutely disagree with it, becuase the Jews have been living in Europe for centuries (mostly, in Eastern Europe - Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic States) and have been mixing with locals a lot. It means that most of their DNA is European (East Slavic, mostly.) And the original Jewish DNA is little different from the Arabs. (Area where they came from)

Who do you think is right?

This is why I have trouble believing that the Ashkenazis cluster with Sicilians. Every other Ashkenazi you see(depending on the host nation) has some admixture from host nations be it Germany, Russia, France or wherever else. This holds true for the USA as well.

[Pine]

This is why I have trouble believing that the Ashkenazis cluster with Sicilians. Every other Ashkenazi you see(depending on the host nation) has some admixture from host nations be it Germany, Russia, France or wherever else. This holds true for the USA as well.

This is hardly true.

[CommonSense]

Only a very small minority. Jews were concentrated in larger towns and cities, while ethnic Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc. usually lived in villages until the 20th century. There wasn't much room for intermixing.

[Leto]

Only a very small minority. Jews were concentrated in larger towns and cities, while ethnic Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc. usually lived in villages until the 20th century. There wasn't much room for intermixing.
This. In Russian media some multiculti douchebags claimed that 1/8 of the Russian population or so have Jewish roots which is highly doubtful to say the least. Even before the mass exodus to Israel Jews made up only 0.7% of the RSFSR population (what is today the Russian Federation). Maybe 5-7% (my wild guess) have some Ashkenazi blood but that would be all.

[MysteriousWays]

3-5% by my estimation likely have Jewish DNA, perhaps a little more than 5%, but even this seems a high estimate. IBD sharing generally suggests Ashkenazi Jews have relatively little recent mixing with other populations.

[Cumansky]

Alot of people doesn't know fuckall on this subject. The one that celebrate Easter next week have most Jewish DNA pozdrav.

[Cumansky]

This. In Russian media some multiculti douchebags claimed that 1/8 of the Russian population or so have Jewish roots which is highly doubtful to say the least. Even before the mass exodus to Israel Jews made up only 0.7% of the RSFSR population (what is today the Russian Federation). Maybe 5-7% (my wild guess) have some Ashkenazi blood but that would be all.

For European Russia is very possible to be higher, but lower mixing Russia than Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, etc

[Lemgrant]

it's myheritage, but still interesting:
https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/ukraine/country-ethnicity-distribution

https://i.imgur.com/iqnTmtM.png
https://i.imgur.com/8Qaapmh.png
https://i.imgur.com/NTAoUCH.png

[Longbowman]

In terms of non-negligible ancestry, obviously most Eastern Europeans do not have Jewish DNA. However, you are wrong to believe that [pure] Ashkenazim resemble Eastern Europeans genetically. They do not.

Some people on this thread have said something like 'every other Ashkenazi is admixed these days so how can Ashkenazim plot with Mediterranean Islanders?' Well, in the USA, most Jews do marry non-Jews, and that's probably true in some Eastern European countries amongst the remnant Jewish populations, too. However, researchers are not fucking idiots, and do not use half-Jews as examples for reference populations, they use pure Ashkenazim, who still exist in their millions today. Pure Ashkenazim show minimal Eastern European heritage and plot in Sicily, Southern Italy, and so on.

[Leto]

For European Russia is very possible to be higher, but lower mixing Russia than Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, etc
In the Russian Federation (RSFSR) Jews were 0.7% or so back in 1970 (before the mass emigration to Israel), so that's definitely unlikely.

[Cumansky]

Jews were 0.7% or so back in 1970 (before the mass emigration to Israel), so that's definitely unlikely.

And they used to be 15% before the war, who cares about 1970 last deport. They were in 1970 mostly assimilated, freely migrated to western thinking nations, or executed.

Some of these Jews even slicked their way into noble status in Middle Ages in Slavic countries. In Romania a non Slavic country Jews first arrived 70 AD.

[Lemgrant]

https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/ashkenazi-jewish/ethnicity-worldwide-distribution

https://i.imgur.com/R01GHNx.png
https://i.imgur.com/XsYj2iM.png
https://i.imgur.com/Pqk6Pb7.png
https://i.imgur.com/AyfQWvd.png
https://i.imgur.com/K3BYiQ6.png

[Longbowman]

^Proves little. Two points: one, many if not most of the people reporting AJ from Ukraine etc may actually be Ukrainian Ashkenazim. There are maybe 400,000 Jews in Ukraine. Second, Ashkenazim are usually overrepresented in DNA clientbases. So if they constitute 1.5% of the American population, they may form as many as 15% of the American 23andme userbase.

[Leto]

And they used to be 15% before the war, who cares about 1970 last deport. They were in 1970 mostly assimilated, freely migrated to western thinking nations, or executed.

Some of these Jews even slicked their way into noble status in Middle Ages in Slavic countries. In Romania a non Slavic country Jews first arrived 70 AD.
No, in the Russian Federation they never exceeded the 1 percent mark. Ever heard of the Pale of settlement? And a lot of half and quarter Jews left for Israel in the 1980-90s.

[Lemgrant]

^Proves little. Two points: one, many if not most of the people reporting AJ from Ukraine etc may actually be Ukrainian Ashkenazim. There are maybe 400,000 Jews in Ukraine. Second, Ashkenazim are usually overrepresented in DNA clientbases. So if they constitute 1.5% of the American population, they may form as many as 15% of the American 23andme userbase.

of course. it's just users from those countries. It says so in the description.

[Pine]

^Proves little. Two points: one, many if not most of the people reporting AJ from Ukraine etc may actually be Ukrainian Ashkenazim. There are maybe 400,000 Jews in Ukraine. Second, Ashkenazim are usually overrepresented in DNA clientbases. So if they constitute 1.5% of the American population, they may form as many as 15% of the American 23andme userbase.

Can't believe no one else pointed this out.

[Lemgrant]

Can't believe no one else pointed this out.

why someone should? it is obvious and says so in the description. We know what percentage of users scored AJ but we don't know how much % AJ scored each one of them. It varies from 0.1% to 100%.

[Not a Cop]

why someone should? it is obvious and says so in the description. We know what percentage of users scored AJ but we don't know how much % AJ scored each one of them. It varies from 0.1% to 100%.

I think they only show people, who have more than 5% of some component.

[Lemgrant]

I think they only show people, who have more than 5% of some component.

where did you read about that? they do not say so in the description


MyHeritage has collected DNA data from people around the world. Using the Ethnicities around the world feature, you can explore the most common ethnicities in different countries, and the top countries for each ethnicity, according to MyHeritage DNA users' data.

When viewing most common ethnicities in a country, the percentages next to the ethnicities represent the total number of MyHeritage DNA users in that country who have that ethnicity. For example, 66.8% of MyHeritage DNA users in Italy have Italian heritage. The percentages do not include how much Italian heritage was found in each Ethnicity Estimate, only the portion of the MyHeritage DNA users in Italy with Italian in their Ethnicity Estimates.

When viewing top countries for each ethnicity, the countries are sorted by the percentage of MyHeritage DNA users that have that ethnicity. For example, Italy is the top country for Italian ethnicity because the portion of users’ Ethnicity Estimates in Italy that include Italian heritage is greater than in any other country in the world.

Ethnicities around the world is updated regularly as new MyHeritage DNA data is added. Check back later to see results for countries that don’t have enough data yet.

[Pine]

No, in the Russian Federation they never exceeded the 1 percent mark. Ever heard of the Pale of settlement? And a lot of half and quarter Jews left for Israel in the 1980-90s.

Those who converted to Christianity were able to exit the Pale. I don't know how many there were. Also, it would be useful to check Russians from the following areas: former Pale territory (western edges of Smolensk, Pskov etc regions) and big cities like Moscow and St.Petersburg, as Jews wouldn't convert to move to a village.

[Pine]

why someone should? it is obvious and says so in the description. We know what percentage of users scored AJ but we don't know how much % AJ scored each one of them. It varies from 0.1% to 100%.

Almost all, if not all,of my cousin matches in Russia have recent Jewish ancestry. Maybe a couple had Ashkenazi around 6% or so, but I don't remember.

[Petalpusher]

Probably the best modeling so far
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644


The major source of EU ancestry in AJ was found to be Southern Europe (≈60–80% of EU ancestry), with the rest being likely Eastern European. The inferred admixture time was ≈30 generations ago, but multiple lines of evidence suggest that it represents an average over two or more events, pre- and post-dating the founder event experienced by AJ in late medieval times. The time of the pre-bottleneck admixture event, which was likely Southern European, was estimated to ≈25–50 generations ago.


Historical model and interpretation

Under our model, admixture in Europe first happened in Southern Europe, and was followed by a founder event and a minor admixture event (likely) in Eastern Europe. Admixture in Southern Europe possibly occurred in Italy, given the continued presence of Jews there and the proposed Italian source of the early Rhineland Ashkenazi communities [3]. What is perhaps surprising is the timing of the Southern European admixture to ≈24–49 generations ago, since Jews are known to have resided in Italy already since antiquity. This result would imply no gene flow between Jews and local Italian populations almost until the turn of the millennium, either due to endogamy, or because the group that eventually gave rise to contemporary Ashkenazi Jews did not reside in Southern Europe until that time. More detailed and/or alternative interpretations are left for future studies.

Recent admixture in Northern Europe (Western or Eastern) is consistent with the presence of Ashkenazi Jews in the Rhineland since the 10th century and in Poland since the 13th century. Evidence from the IBD analysis suggests that Eastern European admixture is more likely; however, the results are not decisive. An open question in AJ history is the source of migration to Poland in late Medieval times; various speculations have been proposed, including Western and Central Europe [2, 10]. The uncertainty on whether gene flow from Western Europeans did or did not occur leaves this question open.


https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644.g007


https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644.t001

[Figaro]

We have oodles and oodles of tested Ashkenazi DNA. This isn't some "maybe yes, maybe no", jury's-not-out type issue......any eastern european dna introgressed into the Ashkenazi genepool is on the very mild side (5-10 percent MAYBE...some of the northern euro could be from the more southerly Rhine areas).

Now, the leading narrative of Ashkenazim being Sephardi-like+extra North Italian+Slight northern euro might be more debateable. There is a case to be made that there is more east med stuff from Greece and thereabouts as well. Not very sure on that.

[Smitty]

Second, Ashkenazim are usually overrepresented in DNA clientbases. So if they constitute 1.5% of the American population, they may form as many as 15% of the American 23andme userbase.

Is there any particular reason for this? Jews just like DNA testing? I would actually think you all would be a little reticent, given history.

[Pine]

Is there any particular reason for this? Jews just like DNA testing? I would actually think you all would be a little reticent, given history.

Most get it for genealogical purposes - for the cousin matches.

[Smaug]

No, but Ashkenazi Jews have Eastern European DNA.

[Smitty]

Most get it for genealogical purposes - for the cousin matches.

But why are they so overrepresented? That's what I don't get.

[Pine]

But why are they so overrepresented? That's what I don't get.

Interest in genealogy + money to spare.

[Pine]

No, but Ashkenazi Jews have Eastern European DNA.

"Ashkenazi haplotypes supply a possible signature of admixture from the Poles into the Polish Ashkenazim, while the haplotypes more frequent in Ashkenazim than Poles are candidates for movement of genes from the Ashkenazim to the Poles. The averaged frequency differences between these categories give an indication of population admixture. The analysis showed that 1.8% of Polish haplotypes may be of Ashkenazi origin and 0.6% of Ashkenazi of Polish origin. The sample from Germany, in which the initial generations of Polish-Ashkenazi history was spent, was useful in demonstrating consistency of haplotype frequencies by rank order. The results show clear evidence of admixture occurring in both directions between two largely HLA-distinct populations."

source: http://www.ashg.org/2009meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f10564.htm

[Longbowman]

Is there any particular reason for this? Jews just like DNA testing? I would actually think you all would be a little reticent, given history.

1) Jews are fascinated by themselves and their personal history
2) Jews have money