Lucas
04-27-2019, 09:05 AM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16940-Sclavenes-vs-Slavs-Medieval-Calculator-(Best-for-Eastern-Europeans)&p=564184&viewfull=1#post564184
Dorkymon description
Thus, I'm going to clearly outline the hypothesis that created the idea for this calculator.
Florin Curta, in his 2018 paper in "Studia mediaevalia Europaea et orientalia", titled "The Carpathian Mountains and the migration of the Slavs", argues that the historical Sclavenes are a different culture from the Prague culture, separating them into two distinct archaeological groups.
Sclavenes are archaeologically identified to have lived across Bukovina (basically where White Croatians and Tiverians roamed), Romanian half of Moldova and Wallachia. While the Prague culture, which is considered by some to be Slavic, is recorded just North of Bukovina and covers the areas of Moravia, Slovakia, Southern Poland and the part of Ukraine above Bukovina and further East towards Kiev. Thus, from an archaeological standpoint, Florin argues and concludes the following:
Quote Originally Posted by Florin Curta
What would then be the problem with calling Slavs the “bearers” of the Prague culture?
In my opinion, the 6th-century sources agree in calling Sclavenes only those people who lived in the Lower Danube region, to the north from the imperial frontier. They, and nobody else, were the “bearers” of the “earliest Slavic culture.” However, the archaeological record of 6th century Walachia bears little, if any resemblance to that of contemporaneous Slovakia or Poland. If the 7th-century inhabitants of Slovakia, Poland, or Moravia were Slavs, they were very different culturally from the Sclavenes of Walachia. Conversely, the material culture that the latter left behind is very similar to that of many communities that lived at that same time along the Outer Carpathians, from Bukovina all the way to the Dâmboviţa River and even beyond it, in the southwestern parts of present-day Romania. As in relief, Victor Spinei’s ironic smile appears in sharper contrast: the Slavs of the written sources have nothing to do with the Prague culture, if such a culture ever existed.
So, this is the idea for this calculator. If Sclavenes and Slavs were already split archaeologically and looked as two distinctive cultures, then could we somehow notice that split in moderns. Y-DNA doesn't follow autosomal DNA, but perhaps this might have something to do with the I-CTS10228 vs R1a-M458 question or between West and East Slavic admixture. I-CTS10228 after all has the highest diversity at the border of Ukraine and Poland, which is more or less the Northernmost location of archaeological remains that are attributed to the Sclavenes. Croats, who are believed to be the descendants of White Croats from that area, also register one of the highest rates of I-CTS10228. Perhaps R1a-M458 and by extent Slavic admixture in this calculator is indicative of an origin further inland, towards Kiev and beyond.
Limitations:
Since Avars and Slavs settled on the territory of the Sclavenes, with the lack of better samples, it is assumed that Av1 and Av2 are representative of the Sclavene culture
In the absence of better samples, it is assumed that Sunghir6 is representative of the Prague-Korchak culture.
Archaeological culture does not have to equal DNA or language. DNA is not indicative of the language of your ancestors or how they culturally identified.
Considerations:
Save your inferiority complex and nationalism for other threads
If you don't like the model, then you can create your own.
Mods will be called to clear the offtopic and adhominems if needed
Remember that the calculator is all but speculation and shouldn't be interpreted literally
I recommend running the tests with pen=0.001
You can run yourselves online if you don't have R on your devices.
sheet
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Baltic:Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res:DA171,0.1 38864,0.118817,0.096543,0.099484,0.061242,0.048527 ,0.016686,0.026307,-0.004704,-0.043919,-0.005359,-0.025927,0.042368,0.034681,0.0095,0.004375,-0.008736,0.003421,0.002891,-0.00963,0.013102,-0.018053,0.013927,-0.012411,0.002395
Paleo-Balkanic:DEU_Medieval_o:STR_300,0.125205,0.165531,-0.001886,-0.05491,0.024004,-0.015339,0.009165,0.010384,0.003681,0.029887,0.003 41,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006331,-0.029044,-0.005304,0.002868,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.016758,-0.007237,0.009645,0.008381,0.00253,-0.004191
Paleo-Balkanic:HUN_Med_Szolad_o1:SZ19,0.120652,0.167562, 0.012822,-0.045866,0.035391,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.000923,0.001023,0.045559,0.007145,0.01079,-0.013528,0.007844,-0.014115,-0.018297,-0.003129,0.003421,0.008547,-0.016258,-0.010232,0.003462,0.005793,0.007832,0.001317
Sclavenes:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1,0.133173,0.132019,0. 065996,0.049419,0.039392,0.024542,0.00893,0.008769 ,0.003886,-0.013668,-0.00065,-0.007343,0.008325,0.014863,-0.012486,0.005304,-0.005346,0.00228,0.002388,0.002126,-0.001497,-0.002844,0.007888,-0.006748,0.000838
Sclavenes:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0. 081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769 ,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_Medieval:Sunghir6,0.129758,0.11 6786,0.070899,0.060078,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165, 0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868
Siberian:Nganassan,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477, 0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
"distance%=2.8055"
Lukasz_scaled, pen=0.001
Sclavenes,39.8
Slavic,27.2
Baltic,24.4
Paleo-Balkanic,8.6
Dorkymon description
Thus, I'm going to clearly outline the hypothesis that created the idea for this calculator.
Florin Curta, in his 2018 paper in "Studia mediaevalia Europaea et orientalia", titled "The Carpathian Mountains and the migration of the Slavs", argues that the historical Sclavenes are a different culture from the Prague culture, separating them into two distinct archaeological groups.
Sclavenes are archaeologically identified to have lived across Bukovina (basically where White Croatians and Tiverians roamed), Romanian half of Moldova and Wallachia. While the Prague culture, which is considered by some to be Slavic, is recorded just North of Bukovina and covers the areas of Moravia, Slovakia, Southern Poland and the part of Ukraine above Bukovina and further East towards Kiev. Thus, from an archaeological standpoint, Florin argues and concludes the following:
Quote Originally Posted by Florin Curta
What would then be the problem with calling Slavs the “bearers” of the Prague culture?
In my opinion, the 6th-century sources agree in calling Sclavenes only those people who lived in the Lower Danube region, to the north from the imperial frontier. They, and nobody else, were the “bearers” of the “earliest Slavic culture.” However, the archaeological record of 6th century Walachia bears little, if any resemblance to that of contemporaneous Slovakia or Poland. If the 7th-century inhabitants of Slovakia, Poland, or Moravia were Slavs, they were very different culturally from the Sclavenes of Walachia. Conversely, the material culture that the latter left behind is very similar to that of many communities that lived at that same time along the Outer Carpathians, from Bukovina all the way to the Dâmboviţa River and even beyond it, in the southwestern parts of present-day Romania. As in relief, Victor Spinei’s ironic smile appears in sharper contrast: the Slavs of the written sources have nothing to do with the Prague culture, if such a culture ever existed.
So, this is the idea for this calculator. If Sclavenes and Slavs were already split archaeologically and looked as two distinctive cultures, then could we somehow notice that split in moderns. Y-DNA doesn't follow autosomal DNA, but perhaps this might have something to do with the I-CTS10228 vs R1a-M458 question or between West and East Slavic admixture. I-CTS10228 after all has the highest diversity at the border of Ukraine and Poland, which is more or less the Northernmost location of archaeological remains that are attributed to the Sclavenes. Croats, who are believed to be the descendants of White Croats from that area, also register one of the highest rates of I-CTS10228. Perhaps R1a-M458 and by extent Slavic admixture in this calculator is indicative of an origin further inland, towards Kiev and beyond.
Limitations:
Since Avars and Slavs settled on the territory of the Sclavenes, with the lack of better samples, it is assumed that Av1 and Av2 are representative of the Sclavene culture
In the absence of better samples, it is assumed that Sunghir6 is representative of the Prague-Korchak culture.
Archaeological culture does not have to equal DNA or language. DNA is not indicative of the language of your ancestors or how they culturally identified.
Considerations:
Save your inferiority complex and nationalism for other threads
If you don't like the model, then you can create your own.
Mods will be called to clear the offtopic and adhominems if needed
Remember that the calculator is all but speculation and shouldn't be interpreted literally
I recommend running the tests with pen=0.001
You can run yourselves online if you don't have R on your devices.
sheet
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Baltic:Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res:DA171,0.1 38864,0.118817,0.096543,0.099484,0.061242,0.048527 ,0.016686,0.026307,-0.004704,-0.043919,-0.005359,-0.025927,0.042368,0.034681,0.0095,0.004375,-0.008736,0.003421,0.002891,-0.00963,0.013102,-0.018053,0.013927,-0.012411,0.002395
Paleo-Balkanic:DEU_Medieval_o:STR_300,0.125205,0.165531,-0.001886,-0.05491,0.024004,-0.015339,0.009165,0.010384,0.003681,0.029887,0.003 41,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006331,-0.029044,-0.005304,0.002868,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.016758,-0.007237,0.009645,0.008381,0.00253,-0.004191
Paleo-Balkanic:HUN_Med_Szolad_o1:SZ19,0.120652,0.167562, 0.012822,-0.045866,0.035391,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.000923,0.001023,0.045559,0.007145,0.01079,-0.013528,0.007844,-0.014115,-0.018297,-0.003129,0.003421,0.008547,-0.016258,-0.010232,0.003462,0.005793,0.007832,0.001317
Sclavenes:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1,0.133173,0.132019,0. 065996,0.049419,0.039392,0.024542,0.00893,0.008769 ,0.003886,-0.013668,-0.00065,-0.007343,0.008325,0.014863,-0.012486,0.005304,-0.005346,0.00228,0.002388,0.002126,-0.001497,-0.002844,0.007888,-0.006748,0.000838
Sclavenes:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0. 081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769 ,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_Medieval:Sunghir6,0.129758,0.11 6786,0.070899,0.060078,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165, 0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868
Siberian:Nganassan,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477, 0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
"distance%=2.8055"
Lukasz_scaled, pen=0.001
Sclavenes,39.8
Slavic,27.2
Baltic,24.4
Paleo-Balkanic,8.6